April 19, 2021 • 42 mins
Gary chats with world-class golf instructor David Leadbetter. Gary and David talk equipment, Hideki Matsuyama's historic win at Augusta, what is going on with Rory, and what Gary calls the "It Factor". David also verifies a unique story about Gary and his late-night chats with a hotel mirror.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
M. David, I'd just like to welcome you to the
Player series. You know, I'm so pleased to have you
on the show. You're being such a great gentleman. You've
marketed the sport as well as anybody that's ever played
the game. And it's so nice to be able to
chat to you again today with something so many interesting
(00:21):
things to speak about, because you really highly involved, you know,
I remember, I remember you played the tour in South
Africa and you also played in Europe if I'm not mistaken,
and then decided to go into teaching, and you know,
you've had so many good players over the years. And
one of the things that are frustrating me right now
(00:43):
is when I hear people talk about the modern days swing,
you know, David, Honestly, if you look at a book
by Percy Boomer, I don't know if you've ever read
that bottom line, one of my favorite on learning goals. Yeah,
that's right. He talks about only of the things today.
Henry Cotton wrote a book would best be a hundred
years ago with the cross handed and all these different
(01:07):
pudding strokes and things in there, the speed slots in
the gay and the club there is I'm dying to
hear of one new thing that I've never heard of
in my life. And I can assure you there's nothing,
there's no such thing as a modern day swing. What
do you think, well, I I tend to agree with
you there, Gary. I mean, look, you've got obviously you've
(01:29):
got modern athletes. Now athletes have improved. I mean you
started this whole trend, and that the fitness aspect and
the change in equipment. I think the the equipment now
matches the player a lot better. Where back in your
day and even my day, it was a bit of
a trial and area to find the right driver, find
the right shaft. Now obviously you can you can pinpoint
(01:51):
what suits you best. And even golf balls. I mean
they're finding golf balls some spin more some spin there.
So the athletes of advantage obviously, But as far as
technique is concerned, I mean, we've seen it all before.
I mean it's like, hey, maybe we're not wearing tweet
jackets and playing with hickory shafts, but the fact is,
I mean, you know, they're still trying to figure out
(02:12):
how to get that down ball in the hole and
fewer shots as possible, you know, and so yeah, I mean,
you know, what do they call the modern swing? I mean,
the modern swing now is something which I know is
really uh, you know, makes you angry as the old
sort of you know, Hey, this position here, which you
know we've seen players in the past, Trevino, Palmer and
(02:32):
et cetera, and you know, it's it's a way to play.
But if there's any longevity to the game, I mean,
if you look at the greats, I mean, they never
had that position. It was almost as if they had
this neutral position, which Hogan was a big advocate of.
Exactly if you look at longevity, and of course today
everybody's good a different opinion. I wanted to have longevity
(02:53):
and I still want longevity at eighty five. And if
you look at Palmer, he had a very very short career.
Nick Ut one majors for twenty five years. I won
for twenty, Palmer one for six. Now you can play
golf that way? You can't play, yes, but I don't know.
You see, if your body is not strong enough, if
your body is not strong enough, if you start to
(03:14):
hit those hooks and you can't get the club back,
that your backs wing get shorter and shorter. If you
look at John Ram, this highly talented man. I mean,
this guy could really play his back swing honestly, goodness
is so short. And what's going to happen in ten
years time. It's going to get shorter and shorter. So
you've got to think of the length of the back swing.
(03:35):
And I was very interested to see one of the commentators,
uh on the during the Baster said, oh, you know,
they don't have these long flowing swings anymore. You know,
I've never heard such nonsense in my life. The greatest
players that ever lived, the greatest swing ever that ever
man ever, ever ever had by Miles Ben Hogan. He
(03:58):
had a long back split. Sam Sneed had a long backsweek.
Jack Nicholas had a long backswek Tiger Woods had a
long back speak every superstar now to me, I have
my own version of a superstar. Everybody uses the words
superstar too lightly. I think you've got to win six majors.
I've never seen a superstar that didn't ever the had
a short back sleep. And you know, I was blessed
to be around Hogan, and of course he'd never say much,
(04:22):
but he said some things to me that really enabled
me to win the eighteen major championships, and so you
know you're gonna be very careful what you say, the
same as they criticize Deshambro. You know, oh, here comes
the cook, here comes the scientist. Well, the shoes on
the other foot, actually Deschambro, and I'd be anxious to
hear what you've got to say. I think he has
an outstanding swing. Now he does slash it an occasionally,
(04:44):
but that's what makes him exciting. But you and I
know it's not long driving the twins tournaments. It's an asset,
but it's always the patting and the mind. What do
you think, right right? Right? Well, yeah, Branson Deshambo, he
is he's a a different type of individual. Let's face it,
he's got a he's got an inquisitive mind. He's very
(05:05):
scientific in his approach, and I mean he's not stupid.
I mean, look, he realizes, like the US Open, Hey,
if I hit it fifty yards further close to bit
the green and he's other guys and coming out of
this rough, I've got a much better chance than somebody
hitting a seven nine. I'm hitting herring a wedge. So
you know it's interesting. I mean, obviously time will tell
hopefully his body can stand up to the I mean,
(05:26):
he certainly puts a lot of stress on his body.
I mean, you know, even the on the eve of
the Master's Gary, he was out there for an hour
pounding drivers and whether certainly he's got to work out
in order to facilitate that. But it's a I mean
he's got a he's got a very simple swing, very simple.
I mean it's sort of a you know, you you
hear about more Norman, right, I mean I watched him
(05:48):
hit balls. I'm sure you saw him over the years.
I mean, he was a great player in Canada, but
he was certainly one of the straightest. It isn't he
had what they call a one playing swing, and that's
what the shambo works on. But he's I mean, he's
I mean it's interesting and I think it's good for
the game. You've got people like that talking about something,
people like this. I mean, in your day, I mean,
(06:08):
you were you, you were sort of a one off.
The factor is working out what the hecks out? Are
you crazy? And it's gonna look, you're gonna lose your field,
You're going to do this, You're gonna do that, and
and so you just proved that, and I think, you know,
maybe he's just proving things as well. And the fact
is that, look, if you get bigger, you get stronger,
and you have mobility, you're going to hit the ball
a long way. And as as you say, look it's
(06:30):
about Paddy hitting your iron shots close to the whole.
To Golf is a multi faceted game, let's face and
it's not just one aspect. I mean, if you look
at all the greats, including yourself, I mean, alright, you're
a great bucker player, You're a great chipper, you're a
great padder. You know, you're a great fairware would player.
So I mean you've got to have all these elements going.
I think that's the difficulty with this game. It's not
just like baseball where hey smash it out of the
(06:52):
park and how you're going to be a great player
if you do that regularly engulf I mean, there's how
many long drive guys have actually been successful. So so
we're seeing maybe a change in trends, and I think
it's interesting. I mean, we talked about the involvement of
the game, and I mean that is obviously power is
going to be I mean, and we'll maybe we'll talk
about that how they reign in some of that power
(07:13):
because some of these golf courses are being made a
little bit obsolete in many in many instances, which is
which is a shame that you know, I mean, that's
I guess it's called progress, right, Garret, Well, you know,
here's an interesting thing that the leaders of the game
have got to wake up and realize. And I admire
the leaders of the game, but they've got to have
(07:33):
more vision where the shambro ends up. Now you're gonna
have people come out and carry the ball over that
you've never seen a big play like Lebron James or
Michael Jordan's come and play golfing. They're coming because these
young people at university now they are learning that there's
longevity and golf and you can make a lot of
(07:56):
money for a long time. Where's other sports? And then
if l players there for three years and he leaves,
and man, he's been hit in the head and his
shoulders and he's an agony for the rest of his life.
So and everybody wants to have a support to participate
in for as long as possible. One of the great
joys I wake up every day again to the gym.
Can I beat my age by eighteen shots? Can I
(08:17):
stretch and get my swing longer? You know, there's always
a challenge until the day you die. That's if you
love the game, which I just love the game. I
love playing with with business people or anybody. And I
love talking to young people. And people say to me,
these young kids, what do I do to become a champion?
I said, it's a thing called it. And I'm just
going to digress for a minute. I think the player
(08:38):
on the tour at the moment who has really got
it is Jordan's speech. Now, Jordan's speech. He is as
good a player I think from sixty yards that the
world has ever seen. I mean that's a big statement.
But he's not in the top thirty players from t
to green. And but he's got it. He knows how
(09:02):
to compete, he knows how to never give up. He
knows how to play the right shot at the right time.
It doesn't always come off. But because he has a
lot of faults and he's swing and if he ever
gets the right, goodness me will he be number one
in the world without a question. And he's a wonderful
young man. He's a real all American guy, and I
(09:24):
just love him so. But Winston Churchill said, the height
that great men reached and kept we're not attained by
sudden flight. But while his opponents were sleeping, he was
toiling upward in the night. And that's what I did.
I went to the gym at twelve o'clock when I
(09:45):
came back from a dinner, and I asked the hotel manager,
please let me have the key for the gym. No, no, no,
and I said please. Now, I promise you I'll keep
it tidy. Now, this is what has been Shambro is doing.
And I just love his work ethic and don't forget
when he was the tournament at Arnold Partner's Course, he
won it not because of his long driving. He won
it because of his putting. The way the commentators were
(10:07):
talking about, you would have thought, and I said to
the one commentator, how far did he drive westward? By
oh ninety yards? Well, the way you guys were talking,
you'd think he'd have a twenty shot lead coming to
the last hole. But with his long hitting, it all
came down to Deschambro holding a lot of puts. And
this is what always wins the tournament. Tiger Woods was
not a good driver of the ball accurate wife. Neither
(10:30):
was for Michauls, but they were one and two in
the world. We know you can play a bad round
of golf and if you put well, you can break seventy,
but you cannot break seventy if you're putting badly. Yeah,
I remember years ago you saying, Gary, there's going to
be people are gonna be coming out. They're gonna be
hitting the ball four hundred yards. This is a twenty
(10:50):
years ago. I remember chatting to you and no, there's
no question. Look, athletes are better. I mean training is better.
Although having said that, I think some of the training
I mean you, I'd like to hear your opinion on this,
because if you look at Tiger, I think to some
extent he's trained the wrong way. I mean I think
a lot of his injuries could be actually maybe based
(11:10):
on how he was working out, I mean running with
running marathons with weight belts on and so on and
so forth. And so I always remember John Daily telling me, Gay,
this is a complete this is a complete the opposite
of the way you think. I said, John, you ever
work out? He says, Now he says. My theory is
he said you can you can pull a muscle, but
you can't pull fat. So that's a different a different approach.
(11:36):
I guess, well, I want to say this, John Daily,
in my opinion, he uh he was second to Tiger
on the tour with ability. This man had such ability.
But he certainly had unbelievable ability, A great touch, a
great touch. You know. So what are your feelings on
Rory McElroy because obviously immense talent that just doesn't seem
(12:00):
to fulfilled it. I mean, if you you would say
probably at this stage of the games, but I think
you've got one four majors um, But I mean you'd
say he probably underachieved in many respects. Yes, Well said,
He's definitely underachieved because this man has the best golf
swing on the tour. And uh, I know he's obsessed
(12:22):
with hitting the ball a long way, but that's not
a bad fault. He's a great exerciser. I just love
the guy. He's a He exercises and to win four
majors as a starter as phenomenal. But you know, I'm
expecting him to go on I mean every year. I
just think he's going to win the Masters because the
course has made for him. There's never been a golf
(12:42):
course that has made more for him than that golf course.
What is wrong with him? I don't know. I don't
profess to know, but I do know one thing. It's
not in the swing. And if he's looking for it
in the swing, and I see he had Pete Cowan yet, fine,
but I don't think you should be having lessons from
a O the week before the Masters. I don't think
you should be doing that. But everybody's got their own opinion.
(13:05):
I think, well, when I wanted to win the Grand Slam,
and when I went to I used to go into
a reverie. I used to do meditating, I used to
do positive thinking. I mean, I don't want to go
into the whole thing, but I trained myself mentally to
win the tournament. When I wanted to beat Jack Nicholas
to win the Grand Slam, I went to the scoreboard
in the morning at six thirty and I sat in
(13:26):
front of the scoreboard on a tight ch position and
I visualized Gary Player, my name being on that scoreboard,
and I did so many things that were very different
to ethletes that do today. Now there's no question. The
reason that Rory McElroy it's nothing to do these swing
at all. The swing is not the thing, it's the mind.
He's got to get that right when he plays in
(13:49):
that tournament. And I don't know what he thinks about.
I don't know if he's nervous. You don't know what's
inside of a man, David. But my goodness me, if
ever I've seen a man with talent, it's Rory mcelroyin
We're all want to see him when the Grand slamb
same as we want to see Jordan's speeds when the
Grand Slam. So I wouldn't speed gets his string right,
he will win the Grand Slam, there's no question. Because
(14:10):
this guy is he's got it. Really, how many players
can I see on the tour that have got it?
My my idea of it. Not many wonderful strikers in
the ball, wonderful scorers. I don't know how consistent they
are at playing. That's another thing that's important. But I
don't know. Does money have an effect? You know they're
(14:32):
making hundreds of millions. To me, money wasn't the thing.
If somebody I didn't worry, I didn't play golf for
money because there wasn't much money. I played because I
wanted to be the best and said it. Arnold and
said it, Jack and said it, Travina and said it,
watch it and said it home. I wouldn't say that sneat.
He loved money, man money, that men would travel from
(14:53):
here to Australia for five grand. How do you see that?
The great champions of the part of your era and
even subsequent to that, I mean, how do you see
(15:14):
them versus the modern day player should be say do
you do you see there's the I mean, do you
see there's more love in the game those players back
then you talked about the money, and obviously these players
making so much money now flying around in private jets
and everything else, does that somehow dampen the their ability
to sort of maybe become great at winning a bunch
(15:35):
of majors? Brandon Grace said to me at Cape Town,
who I love by the way, we were in at
fan Courtney said, you know when you and Jack and
Arnold and Tom Watson when Torments said were only about
thirty players you had to beat. Today, we've gotta beat
at least eight players. I said, you're right, you've gotta
beat ad players. But I came down during COVID in
(15:56):
Philadelphia at my daughter's house, and I sat down and
I got all the players that played in our time.
There were fifty nine major champions playing out tour at
that time. Think about it, fifty nine. There's certainly not
fifty nine now. So people underestimate players of the past
and what they do at present. When I played the tour,
(16:16):
I made the same mistake as Brandon, and I thought, oh, well,
this is much tougher to win golf tourments today than
when Hogan played. Oh you just looked who played when
Hogan was there. Just sit down and do your homework
and see the players that were there. There were players
that golfers on the store have never even heard of.
And you think that Bobby Jones, the scores he did
with a ball that went eighty yards less, a walking stick,
(16:40):
a face on the club and looked like a frying pan.
I mean, in the conditions that he played in the
scores he did unbelievable. We must have respect for present
and for past. The game. Interesting, know what you think
You're gonna go to St. Andrews for the Open soon
and on a calm day, the right conditions, Bryson deshambo
(17:04):
is going to drive nine greens. Now, what do you feel?
I mean, I'm in favor of slowing the ball down.
Otherwise we can't build more golf courses. A lot of
people who are city slickers and don't understand the situation
of water. That's the biggest issue. We're gonna run out
of water in the world by the five will be
short of twenty five percent of water. Now, can you
(17:26):
go and build longer golf courses? No, it's too expensive.
Machinery is a fortune, I mean the fertilization, but the
water is the issue. So we have no choice but
to slow the ball down. Um. I know Tom Watson
said the other day, and I respect his opinion. He
he doesn't think they should slow the ball down. Arnold
(17:46):
and Jack and a host of others. I think Trevino
believes that. I think you believe in it. If you don't,
it's going to become a joke on how golf has played.
And I mean, we don't want to see that because
the average man cannot relate to it. Well, you know,
I think it boils down. Gary. Look, I mean I
I agree with you I mean something has to be
(18:07):
done because otherwise, I say, you know, if every golf
course is going to be a pitch and pat tack course,
and so it's I mean, how when you think about
preparing a golf course, they would say, we will make
the course is fast and narrow, the fairways thick in
the rough. But that's for one week a year. What
are the poor members going to do the rest of
the time. So I think we when when you look
at legislation, I've always felt that there should be I
(18:29):
wouldn't say two sets of rules, but I think that
the tour players, maybe the U. S g a A
at that elite level, need to govern themselves. I mean,
I think the average golfer who wants to go up
there and have some fun and if he hits the
twenty yards longer with a particular driver or a particular ball,
hey have had it because they're just gonna have more enjoyment.
But at the tour player level, I mean there has
(18:49):
me Take baseball for instance, I mean, look at Major
League Baseball. They don't use aluminium bats that you know
they used, wouldn't they use wooden bats? Okay, So so
that there can be some changes, and maybe the tour
has to start to regulate itself and figure out Okay,
if well, what if we want to make this a
game for the future, because otherwise you're gonna you're gonna
(19:11):
eliminate players. I mean, you think of players now like
a Corey pavement, how would they compete today? It's it
would be impossible. I mean, here's a player that worked
the ball and did this and did that with the
golf ball. But so you're seeing I mean, yes, you
know it's an athletic sport, but the fact is you
want to bring all types of players. Say, it's more
than just long hitting, as you say, being able to
control the ball, being able to control your distances, control
(19:35):
the shape of the shot that trajector, et cetera. So
I don't know, I just felt that there may be there,
maybe should be make what they call it bifurcation. I
think that it's a fancy word that they used where
But hey, there's some slightly different rules for the tour,
you know, So I don't know if that's a if
that's an answer or not. I mean, and everybody wants
to play what the tour players are playing. Let's face it,
(19:55):
Gary they're not playing the same clubs or using the
same ball tour plays are using now. I spoke to
Peter Dawson of the R and a who I got
on extremely well whip it here and I completely disagreed
with each other. I said, there should be equipment for
pros and and the amateurs should be allowed to use
what they like, because we need more people to play golf.
(20:19):
You don't want to cut the ball back for the amateurs.
You don't want to stop the long pattern for amateurs.
A man's got the yips so badly. A friend of
mine was three putting from two ft, so he gave
up the game and they took the long patter away.
Let him enjoy it. I mean what they hanged now.
I don't believe in the long padder for professional golf.
I agree with you it should be maybe the pro
(20:40):
professional golfers should run their goss start golf, and the
amateurs should run their side the golf. It's not a
case of disrespect. It's a case that professionals know a
lot more than amateurs about the game. And it's like teachers.
I mean, you know, uh, if you're going to go
to a man for a lesson. You better go to
the right person. You've to go to the person you know.
(21:01):
If I was a young pro today, I'm coming to
you for a liston because you played. You played, You
just didn't read about something and come into the game.
And now I profess to be a great teacher. Pete
cow And I like his idea because he played. You've
got to have been in the arena to understand the game. Now, teachers,
I think their teachers for for the club pros who
(21:23):
are good for their members. They can teach a young
boys playing the game. But when it comes to teaching champions, well,
I mean I just see David. I just look at
the golfers, think about it, Trevor im a Month, Schwartzaw,
Mike Weir, Ian Maker Finch. I can go to Martin Kaimba,
(21:45):
I can go down the line, David who won majors,
who couldn't play anymore? So why did they go and change?
Now you go to somebody who's never been in the
arena and you're gonna listen to him. You've got to
go in that case, if you want to know something
about business, I'm not going to the U an average person.
(22:09):
I'm going to a champion who knows about business. So
everybody for their lost. I'm not criticizing teachers at all.
I'm just saying it's all categorized. You've gotta if you
want ever lesson you go to and depending on your play.
But man, if I was a young guy and I
want to know something about the game, I'm going to
leave Travino. He was as sharp as attack this man
(22:31):
and know when to play, what shot, how to think? David,
there's a special there's a lifetime on how to play golf.
A lot of players can hit the ball magnificence, but
they don't know how to play, what shot, how to think.
I mean, there's it's so it's a science and people
don't realize it. And you cannot know that science unless
(22:54):
you have been in the arena yourself. How can a
man teach you how to do certain things when he's
never been on the arena, right, And you want to
go to teachers, not young guys on the block. You
want to go to people that have been around a
long time. You've been around a long time, and when
you started, like me, when I started, I did things
wrong in this in the theory of the game. When
you started, you were teaching certain things that you wouldn't teach.
(23:17):
The day changes the price of survival, right right, Yeah,
It's interesting how you talk about people like Lee Trevino obviously,
I mean shot makers extraordinaire. I mean, he actually had
quite an influence on young Tony Finale. Tony Finale obviously,
you know, one of the one of the better ball
strikers out there, one of the one of the longest
(23:38):
hitters out there. I've known him a long time. He
actually grew up in a very poor family, and I
mean he's done it exceedingly well. I mean he hasn't
quite broken through anyone one tourn but if you look
at you look at it, he's had like forty top
tens in the last three years, so I mean something
ridiculous different number. But actually at LEA spent quite a
(24:01):
bit of time with Tony talking about shot making and stuff,
which I think a lot of the young players and
speaking speaking of people like yourselves and something they I
think they'd benefit tremendously because it was a different game
back then. But there is still that factor. I think
in today's game, you know where a craftsman can still
be successful. I mean as long as you're long enough. Okay,
(24:21):
somebody like at Jordan's speed. As you know, he's not
the most straightest driver in the world, but you know
when he gets it within a certain distance, my goodness.
I mean, he is the best in the world. And
there's there's other players. There are a few other players
like that. So I think it's a I think it's
the case of learning as much as you can. I
mean you did. I mean you picked everybody's minds and
you created your own, yes, I own approach. But you
(24:42):
took all that information and you figured out how it
would work for you, right, which I think is what
the grapes really do. David, you just made such sense.
If Ben Hogan had said to me, Gary, I see
something in your swing, I would have got it will
make you play better. I would have got on a
plane from South Africa and come here for the lesson
and going back to Southern because he knew here. He
(25:05):
knew what he was talking about. And that is so important,
so important to have the knowledge, the knowledge and golf
is so important of a young guy. I mean, I'm
watching a young girl up in Augusta there swinging the club,
and I said to what do you want to do?
She's I want to be a pro. One day. I said, okay,
(25:25):
what are you thinking about when you hit the ball.
She says, oh, well, here's the club. I just think
about the club coming back square to the ball, and
I visualized the target and David, six out of ten
young people tell me this. I said, Oh, you've got
a chip in the ball. Have you you tell the
chip go to go to the target? And it goes?
I said, can't you understand it's a movement in the
(25:46):
swing that makes the ball go straight. You can't just
visualize you bring the club back square and there's the target.
You visualize the ball going to the target. That ball
doesn't know you. It will not go to the target
unless you apply the correct action, right right right when
I was the young man, you so right, I asked everybody.
(26:07):
And I've got to tell your lovely story. I played
with Stam Sneed at Greenbrier as a young man. I
just got over here. It was actually one of my
I think the second golf tournament I played in America.
And I played thirty six holes with him at the
end and we tired, and on his home course and
we went seven holes in the playoff and he beat me.
(26:29):
And I turned and I said, Mr. Sneed, is there
anything you can see in my swing that can help me?
He says, I ain't seen your swing yet, son. Whereas
Jack Nicholas, who's the greatest gentleman I've ever played with,
you asked him anything, he'd try and help you. I
played him in the World Match, played in London twice,
(26:50):
thirty six holes and along with golf course in October
all the newspapers unnem st said he's gonna beat me.
I beat him six and four, five and four. The
next year and I was on a tea and Jack said,
why is your right hand extremely over to the left?
Get it back to where it was now. Not many
guys do that. Jack Nicholas is the gentleman of gentlemen
(27:11):
to play golf. He wants to beat you when you're
playing well. And uh so that's been a very exciting
thing and a very interesting thing for me that the
young people today they'd rather take advice from somebody who's
never been able to play at all than somebody who've
been champions. And that's fine with me, and it's fine
with me and fine with Jack. We don't mind but
(27:33):
you can teach. People can learn so much from experience.
But we we have a different brand of thinking now,
and it's a different time to play. There's big money,
it's more business. It's not like we were. We'd get
in a car and we'd drive a thousand miles together
and we'd stop and we're go and play another golf
course on the way. And we'd stay at people's houses
(27:54):
almost every weekend. We did things that don't exist now.
But things go according to the time. You can ever
say what was right or what was wrong. But I
know one thing. I enjoyed the player the tour much
more than I would have enjoyed it today. But I
would have liked to have had the opportunity to keep
played for the money. You know that that I think
tenth place and Augusta this year, if I'm not mistaken now,
(28:17):
I think got three hundred thousand dollars. Nobody ever made
three hundred thousand dollars for being the leading money winner ever.
Arnold Palmer was the first man too with a hundred
thousand dollars in a year. If that was not the issue,
we had a great time. We played with in two
pro ams. We love to be with people that it's
not like that anymore. It's a completely different game, and
(28:42):
so be it. Yeah, you're right. I mean players do
have shorter careers these days. I mean I think in
terms maybe maybe it is the money factor. I mean
people say, well, Deshambo, let's see how he isn't ten
years time. Well he's probably one of a billion dollars
by that time, and really just gonna he doesn't, wouldn't
you know, not worried about it. But I mean it's
it is interesting, is to say the longevity of the game.
(29:05):
Even if you look at some players, even like you know,
you would call him a journeyman player, but somebody like
a Steve Stricker who's played well in the thirties and
his forties fifties. So there is something about the fact
that probably players who don't get that many injuries probably
last longer as well. Maybe a swing that's easier on
the body who knows that. I want to talk about
(29:27):
one thing, Garrett. I mean, I think one of the
you know, obviously your your mental toughness that really helped
you in match play situations. I mean, I would love
to see you played in a President's Cup or you know,
obviously the Writer Cup, but the you're probably one of
your greatest matches, if you will, was against Tony Lehma
(29:49):
right when you won the World Match Player, when you
were seven down with sev to play right, and everybody'd
written you off, including him. I think he'd said, don't worry,
don't worry, Gary, You've been invited back next year. Regardless.
You know that's that's exactly what happened. We're walking down
and I'm sent him down. He says, never mind, Gary,
(30:12):
you'll be invited back next year. You are the US
Open champion and you've won this championship. But I think
to myself, mad over until the fair lady says I'm
gonna get you, my man. And he goes in and
the press are all saying, well, you gotta beat the
present World Match Played champion. And I didn't have anything
to eat. I went straight to the practice team and
I was hooking in the ball and I was trying
(30:34):
to work out while it's hooking. And I practiced, and
I got on the first tea in the afternoon and
what did I do? Hooked at and lost another hole.
So but you see, you've got to understand that's why
I was trying to tell people watching the Masters this year,
they will said, oh, well, Dick, he's got it sewn up.
I said, what, you can have a nine shot leader Augusta.
(30:55):
I'm made Arnold parmerent I played one year in Augusta
playing the third hole. He was nine shots ahead of me.
We stood on the eleventh t. I was two shots
ahead of him. Excuse me the twelve t. I mean,
people don't understand that. When when Decembro said this is
a past sixty seven for me, I thought, whoa boy,
(31:16):
that's a make. So that, of course, there's there's certain
things about that course you can never explain. It's a
hidden it's a hidden monster. Have everything go right and
you can shoot as many of us are shot sixty fours,
and but my goodness, you can lose. And you know,
look at him, Dick at the end. He doesn't have
(31:37):
to make a six at number fifteen because now he's
got a chip back with the water on the other side,
and then he makes bogey at the next He doesn't
have to hit two drives on the last two holes
like that. Either. I tell you something. You may not
go to sleep thinking you've got it, even if you're
six or seven. As we saw with Greg Norman and
and other players, Art Wall won the tournament six behind.
(31:57):
I wanted seven boon. I went three tourments in our row,
seven behind in a row. So people, you've gotta knowledge.
I come back to knowledge. Education in life is the light.
It's so important. But what you've gotta do. You gotta
play golf and you've got to sit there, and you've
gotta say. I love adversity, do you know? I used
(32:20):
to pray for adversity when I was playing us and
I'm a great believe in prayer. It helps me to
run my life, good things and bad things. And I
used to say, I really, I'm gonna mather my father.
I am going to love adversity today because I know
I'm going to get it, so I can't avoid it.
I don't hate it. Why hate something when you're gonna
(32:41):
get it, you can't avoid I'm gonna love it, and
I'm gonna show you what a man I am. So
I had a different trend of thinking. And I never
felt sorry for myself ever because I had enough of
that when I was a kid, and I never worried
about choking David. This is an awful big statement. I
never choked. I didn't win a tournament when I had
a position to win. I was a position to win
(33:03):
the Masters twice an Arnold Palmer hold a sixty five
ft Bart Augusta from the bright hand side of the green.
And then I had another time I had a six
side in my hand, and I put in the bunker
front bunker buried, and I never won. But I never choked,
because I said, am I gonna choke about hitting a
golf ball and winning in Syria and Iraq and places
(33:25):
in the world, in in Africa where you know their wars?
And am I going to worry about playing golf and
hitting a golf ball? I adjusted my mind. I could
go on and on and on and on and on
tell you the things I did from my mind very different.
I did, very different. Here's a story, Gary, you can
(33:52):
deny it or agree with it, that I heard one
of your tears in South Africa was a great Harold
Henning Uh, one of the many Henning brothers Uh. And
he said, I believe that he was saying that you
were playing to get in the World Cup, and you're
rooming together, and I think he woke up at two
(34:12):
in the morning, and he said, what the hell is
going on here? Because he heard you talking to yourself
in front of the mirror that, hey, I'm going to
be number one, I'm the greatest. I mean it's like,
you know, almost like a Muhammad Ali type thing, right,
I mean, was it was that true or false? No,
that's true. He said, are you He said, you're talking
here to your steep boy. Are you awake? And then
(34:34):
there was no gym. He didn't have a gym. There
had spain in the hotel where we were staying, so
I had George Bloomberg and his wife were staying in
adjoining room. So I knocked on the door. I said, George,
come yet when he says, what do you want? He
was in his pajamas. I said, get on my back. Now.
He hasn't made of seventy and he's holding got an
unding my squatch. He said, Gary, I don't like this.
(34:56):
I said, shut up. So the next you are knocked
on the door, he says, the doors locked. I'm not
coming coming. It's it's interesting when you look back, I mean,
I mean you you spoke about Greg Mormon a while ago,
and I was saying there's one of the most talented
players who really, if you think about it, was very
(35:18):
much an underachiever. I mean, you want two majors, he
want to opens. But I mean the had a lot
of things happened to him. But here's a guy that's
just something that was snake bit or something. I mean,
you know, you would have expected him to sort of
one eight to ten majors in his career from a
pure talent standpoint. I mean there was nobody better than
him at that stage. No nobody. Yeah, I mean he
(35:40):
found it difficult to close the deal. No, that's right.
You see, you can go. You can mention this about
a lot of players in life. Uh. You know. The
trouble is when you do it, you don't mean to
be critical. I'm never critical. I respect for everybody. But
there are facts, the facts that you cannot deny, and
some players might not like it, but that is a
(36:03):
fact that Greg Norman, I mean, he was I never
saw a better driver of a golf call than Greg Norman. Never.
But there was something wrong. There was something wrong, and
I don't profess to know what. I don't think he
played under pressure very well. I think that was something
that I noticed in his career. And what the reason was,
(36:24):
I don't know, but he should have won at least
at least eight or at least six majors at least
so but you know, here's the thing I tell I've
got twenty two grandchildren, six children and two great grandchildren.
And when I talked to young people too, I said,
please don't ever use the word if if ben Hogan
(36:47):
never had to go to war, and if ben Hogan
never had an accident, he would have won way over
twenty major championships. He went toward his prime, so he
never played in fifteen major hampionships. Brian, same with Sam Snead.
Basically what would they have done? If Tom Watson had
won the PGA, he would have won the Grand Slab.
(37:10):
If Rory McElroy had won the Masters, If Jordan's Speet
wins the p G A which he will in time,
I think, and if this and if that, I mean,
you can go on and on and on. If Arnold
Palmer won the PGA would have won the Grand Slam.
If Travino won the Masters, he would have won the
Grand Slam. But you've gotta laugh, and you've got to
(37:30):
enjoy the game and you know. Fortunately, I'm so delighted
I came along at my time. Yes, would I like
to have had the opportunity to play against Tiger and
these guys. I would have loved it with his modern
day equipment where I could have hit the ball fifty
yards further, play on greens like this, free telephone calls,
flying in a private jet. You know, it's just free food,
(37:53):
people media at the airport at ten o'clock at night.
I mean, it's a dream world. It's a it's actually
it's not on. It's not on. And but I'd like
to just digress for a minute and just say I
cannot tell you how excited I was to see he
DECKI much of Yama win the tournament. I've played in
an Asia for thirty years and went to Japan on
(38:16):
many occasions, and they've had so many good players Jambo, Asaki,
you know, Oki and uh to Go, you can go on.
They've had a host of good players come close to
winning majors. The Japanese people, six percent of the population
played golf. They've they're fanatical about the game. I can
tell you if we never had this COVID lockdown, you
(38:40):
would have had players or excuse me press didn't get
on a plane the night before the final of Augusta.
They would have come there just to cover he DECKI
whether he won or lost, I've sent him I'm very
happy you won because you will now be the Prime
Minister and I won't need a visa to go there.
But the thing is that what he did was just
(39:01):
remarkable and it's gonna boost the game of golf to
such a degree in Asia which benefits us all. And
I cannot speak highly enough on And also the way
you hang in there, and man, the way this guy
rips through the ball. I mean, I've always said you've
got to have an uninterrupted flow of motion through the ball.
(39:22):
And look at him, he goes to like lightning. I mean,
it's it's wonderful. And that's if you don't do that
under pressure, you've had it. Yeah, he's I mean, he's
a very mild mannered guy. Doesn't say a lot. In
fact that it was quite funny. A Japanese reporter was saying, well,
he doesn't speak much English, but he also doesn't speak
much Japanese. Gary, I want to I want to pay
(39:46):
you a top of me because a lot of people
say so what is it about Gary? You know that.
What is it about? Gary? And I said, you know,
one of the things that there's very few people in
this world who when you're around, the vibes and off.
And I think your enthusiasm and zest for life and
your positiveness, I think it rubs off on everybody. I
(40:07):
just want to tell you this because I know it's
like it's it's you. You have what I would call
that feel good factor, and so obviously you you you
utilize that in your daily life, and I think you
know every people that you come into contact with, whether
you're promoting fitness and health and the game of golf
as a whole and globalizing the game to make it
(40:27):
better for everybody. But you know, I think that's one
of the things to me I've always sort of felt about. Wow,
you know, you just feel good after being around you.
So so if I feel good being around you, you're
gonna feel good about being around yourself as well. Well.
Thank you, David. That's such a nice compliment, and I
appreciate that. But I just love people. Man. I speak
(40:48):
to the old lady who's sweeping the airport. Actually I
speak to a guy sweeping the street I just love people.
I've been blessed to be around, from president to put
villagers in Africa and India, and you learn something from everybody.
When you go to those villages in Africa and India,
you learn about humility, and you learn about a very
(41:10):
essential ingredient, and that's called gratitude. I'm so grateful. I
never go to bed ever, not one night of my
life to say thank you. I like to go and
arrive at Augusta, for example. I like to walk through
Magnolia Lane, which I don't do on every occasion, but
I walked through there, this ambiance of this place, the
great beauty. President Isisenland has been there, Bobby Jones, this wonderful,
(41:36):
wonderful man, and Clifford Roberts, who and and I just say,
I've won the three times, second, three times, top ten,
fourteen times, most number of cuts, most number of times.
How lucky am I I've come to say thank you?
Amongst these trees. One must never forget to be grateful
for things, because when you think what's transpiring around the
(41:57):
world today, and having traveled more miles and anybody that
ever lived these eyes are mine have seen things that
are so terrifying, good and bad. But it reminds you
to say a little word called thank you. Very very important,
but thank you very much. Quite honestly, I think the
same about you. You've always smiling, you're always pleasant, You're
(42:20):
extremely well mannered. Thank you for being with us. You
and I could speak forever on this that. Thank you
very much. Indeed, I've really enjoyed being with you, my friend.
Thanks Gary enjoyed it so much. Down the road. Don't
forget to subscribe to the Player series on Apple, Spotify,
(42:43):
for wherever you get your podcast
M. David, I'd just like to welcome you to the
Player series. You know, I'm so pleased to have you
on the show. You're being such a great gentleman. You've
marketed the sport as well as anybody that's ever played
the game. And it's so nice to be able to
chat to you again today with something so many interesting
(00:21):
things to speak about, because you really highly involved, you know,
I remember, I remember you played the tour in South
Africa and you also played in Europe if I'm not mistaken,
and then decided to go into teaching, and you know,
you've had so many good players over the years. And
one of the things that are frustrating me right now
(00:43):
is when I hear people talk about the modern days swing,
you know, David, Honestly, if you look at a book
by Percy Boomer, I don't know if you've ever read
that bottom line, one of my favorite on learning goals. Yeah,
that's right. He talks about only of the things today.
Henry Cotton wrote a book would best be a hundred
years ago with the cross handed and all these different
(01:07):
pudding strokes and things in there, the speed slots in
the gay and the club there is I'm dying to
hear of one new thing that I've never heard of
in my life. And I can assure you there's nothing,
there's no such thing as a modern day swing. What
do you think, well, I I tend to agree with
you there, Gary. I mean, look, you've got obviously you've
(01:29):
got modern athletes. Now athletes have improved. I mean you
started this whole trend, and that the fitness aspect and
the change in equipment. I think the the equipment now
matches the player a lot better. Where back in your
day and even my day, it was a bit of
a trial and area to find the right driver, find
the right shaft. Now obviously you can you can pinpoint
(01:51):
what suits you best. And even golf balls. I mean
they're finding golf balls some spin more some spin there.
So the athletes of advantage obviously, But as far as
technique is concerned, I mean, we've seen it all before.
I mean it's like, hey, maybe we're not wearing tweet
jackets and playing with hickory shafts, but the fact is,
I mean, you know, they're still trying to figure out
(02:12):
how to get that down ball in the hole and
fewer shots as possible, you know, and so yeah, I mean,
you know, what do they call the modern swing? I mean,
the modern swing now is something which I know is
really uh, you know, makes you angry as the old
sort of you know, Hey, this position here, which you
know we've seen players in the past, Trevino, Palmer and
(02:32):
et cetera, and you know, it's it's a way to play.
But if there's any longevity to the game, I mean,
if you look at the greats, I mean, they never
had that position. It was almost as if they had
this neutral position, which Hogan was a big advocate of.
Exactly if you look at longevity, and of course today
everybody's good a different opinion. I wanted to have longevity
(02:53):
and I still want longevity at eighty five. And if
you look at Palmer, he had a very very short career.
Nick Ut one majors for twenty five years. I won
for twenty, Palmer one for six. Now you can play
golf that way? You can't play, yes, but I don't know.
You see, if your body is not strong enough, if
your body is not strong enough, if you start to
(03:14):
hit those hooks and you can't get the club back,
that your backs wing get shorter and shorter. If you
look at John Ram, this highly talented man. I mean,
this guy could really play his back swing honestly, goodness
is so short. And what's going to happen in ten
years time. It's going to get shorter and shorter. So
you've got to think of the length of the back swing.
(03:35):
And I was very interested to see one of the commentators,
uh on the during the Baster said, oh, you know,
they don't have these long flowing swings anymore. You know,
I've never heard such nonsense in my life. The greatest
players that ever lived, the greatest swing ever that ever
man ever, ever ever had by Miles Ben Hogan. He
(03:58):
had a long back split. Sam Sneed had a long backsweek.
Jack Nicholas had a long backswek Tiger Woods had a
long back speak every superstar now to me, I have
my own version of a superstar. Everybody uses the words
superstar too lightly. I think you've got to win six majors.
I've never seen a superstar that didn't ever the had
a short back sleep. And you know, I was blessed
to be around Hogan, and of course he'd never say much,
(04:22):
but he said some things to me that really enabled
me to win the eighteen major championships, and so you
know you're gonna be very careful what you say, the
same as they criticize Deshambro. You know, oh, here comes
the cook, here comes the scientist. Well, the shoes on
the other foot, actually Deschambro, and I'd be anxious to
hear what you've got to say. I think he has
an outstanding swing. Now he does slash it an occasionally,
(04:44):
but that's what makes him exciting. But you and I
know it's not long driving the twins tournaments. It's an asset,
but it's always the patting and the mind. What do
you think, right right? Right? Well, yeah, Branson Deshambo, he
is he's a a different type of individual. Let's face it,
he's got a he's got an inquisitive mind. He's very
(05:05):
scientific in his approach, and I mean he's not stupid.
I mean, look, he realizes, like the US Open, Hey,
if I hit it fifty yards further close to bit
the green and he's other guys and coming out of
this rough, I've got a much better chance than somebody
hitting a seven nine. I'm hitting herring a wedge. So
you know it's interesting. I mean, obviously time will tell
hopefully his body can stand up to the I mean,
(05:26):
he certainly puts a lot of stress on his body.
I mean, you know, even the on the eve of
the Master's Gary, he was out there for an hour
pounding drivers and whether certainly he's got to work out
in order to facilitate that. But it's a I mean
he's got a he's got a very simple swing, very simple.
I mean it's sort of a you know, you you
hear about more Norman, right, I mean I watched him
(05:48):
hit balls. I'm sure you saw him over the years.
I mean, he was a great player in Canada, but
he was certainly one of the straightest. It isn't he
had what they call a one playing swing, and that's
what the shambo works on. But he's I mean, he's
I mean it's interesting and I think it's good for
the game. You've got people like that talking about something,
people like this. I mean, in your day, I mean,
(06:08):
you were you, you were sort of a one off.
The factor is working out what the hecks out? Are
you crazy? And it's gonna look, you're gonna lose your field,
You're going to do this, You're gonna do that, and
and so you just proved that, and I think, you know,
maybe he's just proving things as well. And the fact
is that, look, if you get bigger, you get stronger,
and you have mobility, you're going to hit the ball
a long way. And as as you say, look it's
(06:30):
about Paddy hitting your iron shots close to the whole.
To Golf is a multi faceted game, let's face and
it's not just one aspect. I mean, if you look
at all the greats, including yourself, I mean, alright, you're
a great bucker player, You're a great chipper, you're a
great padder. You know, you're a great fairware would player.
So I mean you've got to have all these elements going.
I think that's the difficulty with this game. It's not
just like baseball where hey smash it out of the
(06:52):
park and how you're going to be a great player
if you do that regularly engulf I mean, there's how
many long drive guys have actually been successful. So so
we're seeing maybe a change in trends, and I think
it's interesting. I mean, we talked about the involvement of
the game, and I mean that is obviously power is
going to be I mean, and we'll maybe we'll talk
about that how they reign in some of that power
(07:13):
because some of these golf courses are being made a
little bit obsolete in many in many instances, which is
which is a shame that you know, I mean, that's
I guess it's called progress, right, Garret, Well, you know,
here's an interesting thing that the leaders of the game
have got to wake up and realize. And I admire
the leaders of the game, but they've got to have
(07:33):
more vision where the shambro ends up. Now you're gonna
have people come out and carry the ball over that
you've never seen a big play like Lebron James or
Michael Jordan's come and play golfing. They're coming because these
young people at university now they are learning that there's
longevity and golf and you can make a lot of
(07:56):
money for a long time. Where's other sports? And then
if l players there for three years and he leaves,
and man, he's been hit in the head and his
shoulders and he's an agony for the rest of his life.
So and everybody wants to have a support to participate
in for as long as possible. One of the great
joys I wake up every day again to the gym.
Can I beat my age by eighteen shots? Can I
(08:17):
stretch and get my swing longer? You know, there's always
a challenge until the day you die. That's if you
love the game, which I just love the game. I
love playing with with business people or anybody. And I
love talking to young people. And people say to me,
these young kids, what do I do to become a champion?
I said, it's a thing called it. And I'm just
going to digress for a minute. I think the player
(08:38):
on the tour at the moment who has really got
it is Jordan's speech. Now, Jordan's speech. He is as
good a player I think from sixty yards that the
world has ever seen. I mean that's a big statement.
But he's not in the top thirty players from t
to green. And but he's got it. He knows how
(09:02):
to compete, he knows how to never give up. He
knows how to play the right shot at the right time.
It doesn't always come off. But because he has a
lot of faults and he's swing and if he ever
gets the right, goodness me will he be number one
in the world without a question. And he's a wonderful
young man. He's a real all American guy, and I
(09:24):
just love him so. But Winston Churchill said, the height
that great men reached and kept we're not attained by
sudden flight. But while his opponents were sleeping, he was
toiling upward in the night. And that's what I did.
I went to the gym at twelve o'clock when I
(09:45):
came back from a dinner, and I asked the hotel manager,
please let me have the key for the gym. No, no, no,
and I said please. Now, I promise you I'll keep
it tidy. Now, this is what has been Shambro is doing.
And I just love his work ethic and don't forget
when he was the tournament at Arnold Partner's Course, he
won it not because of his long driving. He won
it because of his putting. The way the commentators were
(10:07):
talking about, you would have thought, and I said to
the one commentator, how far did he drive westward? By
oh ninety yards? Well, the way you guys were talking,
you'd think he'd have a twenty shot lead coming to
the last hole. But with his long hitting, it all
came down to Deschambro holding a lot of puts. And
this is what always wins the tournament. Tiger Woods was
not a good driver of the ball accurate wife. Neither
(10:30):
was for Michauls, but they were one and two in
the world. We know you can play a bad round
of golf and if you put well, you can break seventy,
but you cannot break seventy if you're putting badly. Yeah,
I remember years ago you saying, Gary, there's going to
be people are gonna be coming out. They're gonna be
hitting the ball four hundred yards. This is a twenty
(10:50):
years ago. I remember chatting to you and no, there's
no question. Look, athletes are better. I mean training is better.
Although having said that, I think some of the training
I mean you, I'd like to hear your opinion on this,
because if you look at Tiger, I think to some
extent he's trained the wrong way. I mean I think
a lot of his injuries could be actually maybe based
(11:10):
on how he was working out, I mean running with
running marathons with weight belts on and so on and
so forth. And so I always remember John Daily telling me, Gay,
this is a complete this is a complete the opposite
of the way you think. I said, John, you ever
work out? He says, Now he says. My theory is
he said you can you can pull a muscle, but
you can't pull fat. So that's a different a different approach.
(11:36):
I guess, well, I want to say this, John Daily,
in my opinion, he uh he was second to Tiger
on the tour with ability. This man had such ability.
But he certainly had unbelievable ability, A great touch, a
great touch. You know. So what are your feelings on
Rory McElroy because obviously immense talent that just doesn't seem
(12:00):
to fulfilled it. I mean, if you you would say
probably at this stage of the games, but I think
you've got one four majors um, But I mean you'd
say he probably underachieved in many respects. Yes, Well said,
He's definitely underachieved because this man has the best golf
swing on the tour. And uh, I know he's obsessed
(12:22):
with hitting the ball a long way, but that's not
a bad fault. He's a great exerciser. I just love
the guy. He's a He exercises and to win four
majors as a starter as phenomenal. But you know, I'm
expecting him to go on I mean every year. I
just think he's going to win the Masters because the
course has made for him. There's never been a golf
(12:42):
course that has made more for him than that golf course.
What is wrong with him? I don't know. I don't
profess to know, but I do know one thing. It's
not in the swing. And if he's looking for it
in the swing, and I see he had Pete Cowan yet, fine,
but I don't think you should be having lessons from
a O the week before the Masters. I don't think
you should be doing that. But everybody's got their own opinion.
(13:05):
I think, well, when I wanted to win the Grand Slam,
and when I went to I used to go into
a reverie. I used to do meditating, I used to
do positive thinking. I mean, I don't want to go
into the whole thing, but I trained myself mentally to
win the tournament. When I wanted to beat Jack Nicholas
to win the Grand Slam, I went to the scoreboard
in the morning at six thirty and I sat in
(13:26):
front of the scoreboard on a tight ch position and
I visualized Gary Player, my name being on that scoreboard,
and I did so many things that were very different
to ethletes that do today. Now there's no question. The
reason that Rory McElroy it's nothing to do these swing
at all. The swing is not the thing, it's the mind.
He's got to get that right when he plays in
(13:49):
that tournament. And I don't know what he thinks about.
I don't know if he's nervous. You don't know what's
inside of a man, David. But my goodness me, if
ever I've seen a man with talent, it's Rory mcelroyin
We're all want to see him when the Grand slamb
same as we want to see Jordan's speeds when the
Grand Slam. So I wouldn't speed gets his string right,
he will win the Grand Slam, there's no question. Because
(14:10):
this guy is he's got it. Really, how many players
can I see on the tour that have got it?
My my idea of it. Not many wonderful strikers in
the ball, wonderful scorers. I don't know how consistent they
are at playing. That's another thing that's important. But I
don't know. Does money have an effect? You know they're
(14:32):
making hundreds of millions. To me, money wasn't the thing.
If somebody I didn't worry, I didn't play golf for
money because there wasn't much money. I played because I
wanted to be the best and said it. Arnold and
said it, Jack and said it, Travina and said it,
watch it and said it home. I wouldn't say that sneat.
He loved money, man money, that men would travel from
(14:53):
here to Australia for five grand. How do you see that?
The great champions of the part of your era and
even subsequent to that, I mean, how do you see
(15:14):
them versus the modern day player should be say do
you do you see there's the I mean, do you
see there's more love in the game those players back
then you talked about the money, and obviously these players
making so much money now flying around in private jets
and everything else, does that somehow dampen the their ability
to sort of maybe become great at winning a bunch
(15:35):
of majors? Brandon Grace said to me at Cape Town,
who I love by the way, we were in at
fan Courtney said, you know when you and Jack and
Arnold and Tom Watson when Torments said were only about
thirty players you had to beat. Today, we've gotta beat
at least eight players. I said, you're right, you've gotta
beat ad players. But I came down during COVID in
(15:56):
Philadelphia at my daughter's house, and I sat down and
I got all the players that played in our time.
There were fifty nine major champions playing out tour at
that time. Think about it, fifty nine. There's certainly not
fifty nine now. So people underestimate players of the past
and what they do at present. When I played the tour,
(16:16):
I made the same mistake as Brandon, and I thought, oh, well,
this is much tougher to win golf tourments today than
when Hogan played. Oh you just looked who played when
Hogan was there. Just sit down and do your homework
and see the players that were there. There were players
that golfers on the store have never even heard of.
And you think that Bobby Jones, the scores he did
with a ball that went eighty yards less, a walking stick,
(16:40):
a face on the club and looked like a frying pan.
I mean, in the conditions that he played in the
scores he did unbelievable. We must have respect for present
and for past. The game. Interesting, know what you think
You're gonna go to St. Andrews for the Open soon
and on a calm day, the right conditions, Bryson deshambo
(17:04):
is going to drive nine greens. Now, what do you feel?
I mean, I'm in favor of slowing the ball down.
Otherwise we can't build more golf courses. A lot of
people who are city slickers and don't understand the situation
of water. That's the biggest issue. We're gonna run out
of water in the world by the five will be
short of twenty five percent of water. Now, can you
(17:26):
go and build longer golf courses? No, it's too expensive.
Machinery is a fortune, I mean the fertilization, but the
water is the issue. So we have no choice but
to slow the ball down. Um. I know Tom Watson
said the other day, and I respect his opinion. He
he doesn't think they should slow the ball down. Arnold
(17:46):
and Jack and a host of others. I think Trevino
believes that. I think you believe in it. If you don't,
it's going to become a joke on how golf has played.
And I mean, we don't want to see that because
the average man cannot relate to it. Well, you know,
I think it boils down. Gary. Look, I mean I
I agree with you I mean something has to be
(18:07):
done because otherwise, I say, you know, if every golf
course is going to be a pitch and pat tack course,
and so it's I mean, how when you think about
preparing a golf course, they would say, we will make
the course is fast and narrow, the fairways thick in
the rough. But that's for one week a year. What
are the poor members going to do the rest of
the time. So I think we when when you look
at legislation, I've always felt that there should be I
(18:29):
wouldn't say two sets of rules, but I think that
the tour players, maybe the U. S g a A
at that elite level, need to govern themselves. I mean,
I think the average golfer who wants to go up
there and have some fun and if he hits the
twenty yards longer with a particular driver or a particular ball,
hey have had it because they're just gonna have more enjoyment.
But at the tour player level, I mean there has
(18:49):
me Take baseball for instance, I mean, look at Major
League Baseball. They don't use aluminium bats that you know
they used, wouldn't they use wooden bats? Okay, So so
that there can be some changes, and maybe the tour
has to start to regulate itself and figure out Okay,
if well, what if we want to make this a
game for the future, because otherwise you're gonna you're gonna
(19:11):
eliminate players. I mean, you think of players now like
a Corey pavement, how would they compete today? It's it
would be impossible. I mean, here's a player that worked
the ball and did this and did that with the
golf ball. But so you're seeing I mean, yes, you
know it's an athletic sport, but the fact is you
want to bring all types of players. Say, it's more
than just long hitting, as you say, being able to
control the ball, being able to control your distances, control
(19:35):
the shape of the shot that trajector, et cetera. So
I don't know, I just felt that there may be there,
maybe should be make what they call it bifurcation. I
think that it's a fancy word that they used where
But hey, there's some slightly different rules for the tour,
you know, So I don't know if that's a if
that's an answer or not. I mean, and everybody wants
to play what the tour players are playing. Let's face it,
(19:55):
Gary they're not playing the same clubs or using the
same ball tour plays are using now. I spoke to
Peter Dawson of the R and a who I got
on extremely well whip it here and I completely disagreed
with each other. I said, there should be equipment for
pros and and the amateurs should be allowed to use
what they like, because we need more people to play golf.
(20:19):
You don't want to cut the ball back for the amateurs.
You don't want to stop the long pattern for amateurs.
A man's got the yips so badly. A friend of
mine was three putting from two ft, so he gave
up the game and they took the long patter away.
Let him enjoy it. I mean what they hanged now.
I don't believe in the long padder for professional golf.
I agree with you it should be maybe the pro
(20:40):
professional golfers should run their goss start golf, and the
amateurs should run their side the golf. It's not a
case of disrespect. It's a case that professionals know a
lot more than amateurs about the game. And it's like teachers.
I mean, you know, uh, if you're going to go
to a man for a lesson. You better go to
the right person. You've to go to the person you know.
(21:01):
If I was a young pro today, I'm coming to
you for a liston because you played. You played, You
just didn't read about something and come into the game.
And now I profess to be a great teacher. Pete
cow And I like his idea because he played. You've
got to have been in the arena to understand the game. Now, teachers,
I think their teachers for for the club pros who
(21:23):
are good for their members. They can teach a young
boys playing the game. But when it comes to teaching champions, well,
I mean I just see David. I just look at
the golfers, think about it, Trevor im a Month, Schwartzaw,
Mike Weir, Ian Maker Finch. I can go to Martin Kaimba,
(21:45):
I can go down the line, David who won majors,
who couldn't play anymore? So why did they go and change?
Now you go to somebody who's never been in the
arena and you're gonna listen to him. You've got to
go in that case, if you want to know something
about business, I'm not going to the U an average person.
(22:09):
I'm going to a champion who knows about business. So
everybody for their lost. I'm not criticizing teachers at all.
I'm just saying it's all categorized. You've gotta if you
want ever lesson you go to and depending on your play.
But man, if I was a young guy and I
want to know something about the game, I'm going to
leave Travino. He was as sharp as attack this man
(22:31):
and know when to play, what shot, how to think? David,
there's a special there's a lifetime on how to play golf.
A lot of players can hit the ball magnificence, but
they don't know how to play, what shot, how to think.
I mean, there's it's so it's a science and people
don't realize it. And you cannot know that science unless
(22:54):
you have been in the arena yourself. How can a
man teach you how to do certain things when he's
never been on the arena, right, And you want to
go to teachers, not young guys on the block. You
want to go to people that have been around a
long time. You've been around a long time, and when
you started, like me, when I started, I did things
wrong in this in the theory of the game. When
you started, you were teaching certain things that you wouldn't teach.
(23:17):
The day changes the price of survival, right right, Yeah,
It's interesting how you talk about people like Lee Trevino obviously,
I mean shot makers extraordinaire. I mean, he actually had
quite an influence on young Tony Finale. Tony Finale obviously,
you know, one of the one of the better ball
strikers out there, one of the one of the longest
(23:38):
hitters out there. I've known him a long time. He
actually grew up in a very poor family, and I
mean he's done it exceedingly well. I mean he hasn't
quite broken through anyone one tourn but if you look
at you look at it, he's had like forty top
tens in the last three years, so I mean something
ridiculous different number. But actually at LEA spent quite a
(24:01):
bit of time with Tony talking about shot making and stuff,
which I think a lot of the young players and
speaking speaking of people like yourselves and something they I
think they'd benefit tremendously because it was a different game
back then. But there is still that factor. I think
in today's game, you know where a craftsman can still
be successful. I mean as long as you're long enough. Okay,
(24:21):
somebody like at Jordan's speed. As you know, he's not
the most straightest driver in the world, but you know
when he gets it within a certain distance, my goodness.
I mean, he is the best in the world. And
there's there's other players. There are a few other players
like that. So I think it's a I think it's
the case of learning as much as you can. I
mean you did. I mean you picked everybody's minds and
you created your own, yes, I own approach. But you
(24:42):
took all that information and you figured out how it
would work for you, right, which I think is what
the grapes really do. David, you just made such sense.
If Ben Hogan had said to me, Gary, I see
something in your swing, I would have got it will
make you play better. I would have got on a
plane from South Africa and come here for the lesson
and going back to Southern because he knew here. He
(25:05):
knew what he was talking about. And that is so important,
so important to have the knowledge, the knowledge and golf
is so important of a young guy. I mean, I'm
watching a young girl up in Augusta there swinging the club,
and I said to what do you want to do?
She's I want to be a pro. One day. I said, okay,
(25:25):
what are you thinking about when you hit the ball.
She says, oh, well, here's the club. I just think
about the club coming back square to the ball, and
I visualized the target and David, six out of ten
young people tell me this. I said, Oh, you've got
a chip in the ball. Have you you tell the
chip go to go to the target? And it goes?
I said, can't you understand it's a movement in the
(25:46):
swing that makes the ball go straight. You can't just
visualize you bring the club back square and there's the target.
You visualize the ball going to the target. That ball
doesn't know you. It will not go to the target
unless you apply the correct action, right right right when
I was the young man, you so right, I asked everybody.
(26:07):
And I've got to tell your lovely story. I played
with Stam Sneed at Greenbrier as a young man. I
just got over here. It was actually one of my
I think the second golf tournament I played in America.
And I played thirty six holes with him at the
end and we tired, and on his home course and
we went seven holes in the playoff and he beat me.
(26:29):
And I turned and I said, Mr. Sneed, is there
anything you can see in my swing that can help me?
He says, I ain't seen your swing yet, son. Whereas
Jack Nicholas, who's the greatest gentleman I've ever played with,
you asked him anything, he'd try and help you. I
played him in the World Match, played in London twice,
(26:50):
thirty six holes and along with golf course in October
all the newspapers unnem st said he's gonna beat me.
I beat him six and four, five and four. The
next year and I was on a tea and Jack said,
why is your right hand extremely over to the left?
Get it back to where it was now. Not many
guys do that. Jack Nicholas is the gentleman of gentlemen
(27:11):
to play golf. He wants to beat you when you're
playing well. And uh so that's been a very exciting
thing and a very interesting thing for me that the
young people today they'd rather take advice from somebody who's
never been able to play at all than somebody who've
been champions. And that's fine with me, and it's fine
with me and fine with Jack. We don't mind but
(27:33):
you can teach. People can learn so much from experience.
But we we have a different brand of thinking now,
and it's a different time to play. There's big money,
it's more business. It's not like we were. We'd get
in a car and we'd drive a thousand miles together
and we'd stop and we're go and play another golf
course on the way. And we'd stay at people's houses
(27:54):
almost every weekend. We did things that don't exist now.
But things go according to the time. You can ever
say what was right or what was wrong. But I
know one thing. I enjoyed the player the tour much
more than I would have enjoyed it today. But I
would have liked to have had the opportunity to keep
played for the money. You know that that I think
tenth place and Augusta this year, if I'm not mistaken now,
(28:17):
I think got three hundred thousand dollars. Nobody ever made
three hundred thousand dollars for being the leading money winner ever.
Arnold Palmer was the first man too with a hundred
thousand dollars in a year. If that was not the issue,
we had a great time. We played with in two
pro ams. We love to be with people that it's
not like that anymore. It's a completely different game, and
(28:42):
so be it. Yeah, you're right. I mean players do
have shorter careers these days. I mean I think in
terms maybe maybe it is the money factor. I mean
people say, well, Deshambo, let's see how he isn't ten
years time. Well he's probably one of a billion dollars
by that time, and really just gonna he doesn't, wouldn't
you know, not worried about it. But I mean it's
it is interesting, is to say the longevity of the game.
(29:05):
Even if you look at some players, even like you know,
you would call him a journeyman player, but somebody like
a Steve Stricker who's played well in the thirties and
his forties fifties. So there is something about the fact
that probably players who don't get that many injuries probably
last longer as well. Maybe a swing that's easier on
the body who knows that. I want to talk about
(29:27):
one thing, Garrett. I mean, I think one of the
you know, obviously your your mental toughness that really helped
you in match play situations. I mean, I would love
to see you played in a President's Cup or you know,
obviously the Writer Cup, but the you're probably one of
your greatest matches, if you will, was against Tony Lehma
(29:49):
right when you won the World Match Player, when you
were seven down with sev to play right, and everybody'd
written you off, including him. I think he'd said, don't worry,
don't worry, Gary, You've been invited back next year. Regardless.
You know that's that's exactly what happened. We're walking down
and I'm sent him down. He says, never mind, Gary,
(30:12):
you'll be invited back next year. You are the US
Open champion and you've won this championship. But I think
to myself, mad over until the fair lady says I'm
gonna get you, my man. And he goes in and
the press are all saying, well, you gotta beat the
present World Match Played champion. And I didn't have anything
to eat. I went straight to the practice team and
I was hooking in the ball and I was trying
(30:34):
to work out while it's hooking. And I practiced, and
I got on the first tea in the afternoon and
what did I do? Hooked at and lost another hole.
So but you see, you've got to understand that's why
I was trying to tell people watching the Masters this year,
they will said, oh, well, Dick, he's got it sewn up.
I said, what, you can have a nine shot leader Augusta.
(30:55):
I'm made Arnold parmerent I played one year in Augusta
playing the third hole. He was nine shots ahead of me.
We stood on the eleventh t. I was two shots
ahead of him. Excuse me the twelve t. I mean,
people don't understand that. When when Decembro said this is
a past sixty seven for me, I thought, whoa boy,
(31:16):
that's a make. So that, of course, there's there's certain
things about that course you can never explain. It's a
hidden it's a hidden monster. Have everything go right and
you can shoot as many of us are shot sixty fours,
and but my goodness, you can lose. And you know,
look at him, Dick at the end. He doesn't have
(31:37):
to make a six at number fifteen because now he's
got a chip back with the water on the other side,
and then he makes bogey at the next He doesn't
have to hit two drives on the last two holes
like that. Either. I tell you something. You may not
go to sleep thinking you've got it, even if you're
six or seven. As we saw with Greg Norman and
and other players, Art Wall won the tournament six behind.
(31:57):
I wanted seven boon. I went three tourments in our row,
seven behind in a row. So people, you've gotta knowledge.
I come back to knowledge. Education in life is the light.
It's so important. But what you've gotta do. You gotta
play golf and you've got to sit there, and you've
gotta say. I love adversity, do you know? I used
(32:20):
to pray for adversity when I was playing us and
I'm a great believe in prayer. It helps me to
run my life, good things and bad things. And I
used to say, I really, I'm gonna mather my father.
I am going to love adversity today because I know
I'm going to get it, so I can't avoid it.
I don't hate it. Why hate something when you're gonna
(32:41):
get it, you can't avoid I'm gonna love it, and
I'm gonna show you what a man I am. So
I had a different trend of thinking. And I never
felt sorry for myself ever because I had enough of
that when I was a kid, and I never worried
about choking David. This is an awful big statement. I
never choked. I didn't win a tournament when I had
a position to win. I was a position to win
(33:03):
the Masters twice an Arnold Palmer hold a sixty five
ft Bart Augusta from the bright hand side of the green.
And then I had another time I had a six
side in my hand, and I put in the bunker
front bunker buried, and I never won. But I never choked,
because I said, am I gonna choke about hitting a
golf ball and winning in Syria and Iraq and places
(33:25):
in the world, in in Africa where you know their wars?
And am I going to worry about playing golf and
hitting a golf ball? I adjusted my mind. I could
go on and on and on and on and on
tell you the things I did from my mind very different.
I did, very different. Here's a story, Gary, you can
(33:52):
deny it or agree with it, that I heard one
of your tears in South Africa was a great Harold
Henning Uh, one of the many Henning brothers Uh. And
he said, I believe that he was saying that you
were playing to get in the World Cup, and you're
rooming together, and I think he woke up at two
(34:12):
in the morning, and he said, what the hell is
going on here? Because he heard you talking to yourself
in front of the mirror that, hey, I'm going to
be number one, I'm the greatest. I mean it's like,
you know, almost like a Muhammad Ali type thing, right,
I mean, was it was that true or false? No,
that's true. He said, are you He said, you're talking
here to your steep boy. Are you awake? And then
(34:34):
there was no gym. He didn't have a gym. There
had spain in the hotel where we were staying, so
I had George Bloomberg and his wife were staying in
adjoining room. So I knocked on the door. I said, George,
come yet when he says, what do you want? He
was in his pajamas. I said, get on my back. Now.
He hasn't made of seventy and he's holding got an
unding my squatch. He said, Gary, I don't like this.
(34:56):
I said, shut up. So the next you are knocked
on the door, he says, the doors locked. I'm not
coming coming. It's it's interesting when you look back, I mean,
I mean you you spoke about Greg Mormon a while ago,
and I was saying there's one of the most talented
players who really, if you think about it, was very
(35:18):
much an underachiever. I mean, you want two majors, he
want to opens. But I mean the had a lot
of things happened to him. But here's a guy that's
just something that was snake bit or something. I mean,
you know, you would have expected him to sort of
one eight to ten majors in his career from a
pure talent standpoint. I mean there was nobody better than
him at that stage. No nobody. Yeah, I mean he
(35:40):
found it difficult to close the deal. No, that's right.
You see, you can go. You can mention this about
a lot of players in life. Uh. You know. The
trouble is when you do it, you don't mean to
be critical. I'm never critical. I respect for everybody. But
there are facts, the facts that you cannot deny, and
some players might not like it, but that is a
(36:03):
fact that Greg Norman, I mean, he was I never
saw a better driver of a golf call than Greg Norman. Never.
But there was something wrong. There was something wrong, and
I don't profess to know what. I don't think he
played under pressure very well. I think that was something
that I noticed in his career. And what the reason was,
(36:24):
I don't know, but he should have won at least
at least eight or at least six majors at least
so but you know, here's the thing I tell I've
got twenty two grandchildren, six children and two great grandchildren.
And when I talked to young people too, I said,
please don't ever use the word if if ben Hogan
(36:47):
never had to go to war, and if ben Hogan
never had an accident, he would have won way over
twenty major championships. He went toward his prime, so he
never played in fifteen major hampionships. Brian, same with Sam Snead.
Basically what would they have done? If Tom Watson had
won the PGA, he would have won the Grand Slab.
(37:10):
If Rory McElroy had won the Masters, If Jordan's Speet
wins the p G A which he will in time,
I think, and if this and if that, I mean,
you can go on and on and on. If Arnold
Palmer won the PGA would have won the Grand Slam.
If Travino won the Masters, he would have won the
Grand Slam. But you've gotta laugh, and you've got to
(37:30):
enjoy the game and you know. Fortunately, I'm so delighted
I came along at my time. Yes, would I like
to have had the opportunity to play against Tiger and
these guys. I would have loved it with his modern
day equipment where I could have hit the ball fifty
yards further, play on greens like this, free telephone calls,
flying in a private jet. You know, it's just free food,
(37:53):
people media at the airport at ten o'clock at night.
I mean, it's a dream world. It's a it's actually
it's not on. It's not on. And but I'd like
to just digress for a minute and just say I
cannot tell you how excited I was to see he
DECKI much of Yama win the tournament. I've played in
an Asia for thirty years and went to Japan on
(38:16):
many occasions, and they've had so many good players Jambo, Asaki,
you know, Oki and uh to Go, you can go on.
They've had a host of good players come close to
winning majors. The Japanese people, six percent of the population
played golf. They've they're fanatical about the game. I can
tell you if we never had this COVID lockdown, you
(38:40):
would have had players or excuse me press didn't get
on a plane the night before the final of Augusta.
They would have come there just to cover he DECKI
whether he won or lost, I've sent him I'm very
happy you won because you will now be the Prime
Minister and I won't need a visa to go there.
But the thing is that what he did was just
(39:01):
remarkable and it's gonna boost the game of golf to
such a degree in Asia which benefits us all. And
I cannot speak highly enough on And also the way
you hang in there, and man, the way this guy
rips through the ball. I mean, I've always said you've
got to have an uninterrupted flow of motion through the ball.
(39:22):
And look at him, he goes to like lightning. I mean,
it's it's wonderful. And that's if you don't do that
under pressure, you've had it. Yeah, he's I mean, he's
a very mild mannered guy. Doesn't say a lot. In
fact that it was quite funny. A Japanese reporter was saying, well,
he doesn't speak much English, but he also doesn't speak
much Japanese. Gary, I want to I want to pay
(39:46):
you a top of me because a lot of people
say so what is it about Gary? You know that.
What is it about? Gary? And I said, you know,
one of the things that there's very few people in
this world who when you're around, the vibes and off.
And I think your enthusiasm and zest for life and
your positiveness, I think it rubs off on everybody. I
(40:07):
just want to tell you this because I know it's
like it's it's you. You have what I would call
that feel good factor, and so obviously you you you
utilize that in your daily life, and I think you
know every people that you come into contact with, whether
you're promoting fitness and health and the game of golf
as a whole and globalizing the game to make it
(40:27):
better for everybody. But you know, I think that's one
of the things to me I've always sort of felt about. Wow,
you know, you just feel good after being around you.
So so if I feel good being around you, you're
gonna feel good about being around yourself as well. Well.
Thank you, David. That's such a nice compliment, and I
appreciate that. But I just love people. Man. I speak
(40:48):
to the old lady who's sweeping the airport. Actually I
speak to a guy sweeping the street I just love people.
I've been blessed to be around, from president to put
villagers in Africa and India, and you learn something from everybody.
When you go to those villages in Africa and India,
you learn about humility, and you learn about a very
(41:10):
essential ingredient, and that's called gratitude. I'm so grateful. I
never go to bed ever, not one night of my
life to say thank you. I like to go and
arrive at Augusta, for example. I like to walk through
Magnolia Lane, which I don't do on every occasion, but
I walked through there, this ambiance of this place, the
great beauty. President Isisenland has been there, Bobby Jones, this wonderful,
(41:36):
wonderful man, and Clifford Roberts, who and and I just say,
I've won the three times, second, three times, top ten,
fourteen times, most number of cuts, most number of times.
How lucky am I I've come to say thank you?
Amongst these trees. One must never forget to be grateful
for things, because when you think what's transpiring around the
(41:57):
world today, and having traveled more miles and anybody that
ever lived these eyes are mine have seen things that
are so terrifying, good and bad. But it reminds you
to say a little word called thank you. Very very important,
but thank you very much. Quite honestly, I think the
same about you. You've always smiling, you're always pleasant, You're
(42:20):
extremely well mannered. Thank you for being with us. You
and I could speak forever on this that. Thank you
very much. Indeed, I've really enjoyed being with you, my friend.
Thanks Gary enjoyed it so much. Down the road. Don't
forget to subscribe to the Player series on Apple, Spotify,
(42:43):
for wherever you get your podcast
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