May 7, 2021 • 43 mins
Gary chats with his grandson James Throssell and they dive deep into the "what ifs" from Gary's career. James and Gary also discuss the legend of Ben Hogan, what if he played in this era, what if Ben and Gary played on today's courses with current equipment, and what if Gary had signed with Ben Hogan when Hogan offered him a sponsorship deal?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
UM. So we've we've had some discussions on the topic
of if if, and you know what that has, you
know what impact that has on on on a career,
and you know, if certain things had happened, how wold
things have potentially turned out. I know that you're a
firm believer in the fact that at the end of
(00:24):
the day, the record book is what's written down on
paper and not what could have happened if something else
had not happened. And I think that that's very true
for certain golfers. I mean, you know, if we talk
about Tiger Woods, UM, you know, if he had one,
if he had not had the injuries he'd had and
any of the indiscretions, he may have gone on to
(00:44):
in twenty plus majors, but as the record stands, he's
got fifteen. So on that point, UM, And one of
the IF talking points that I thought we should cover
was you had a very special relationship with Hogan. UM.
I think from what from what I understand, he wasn't
(01:05):
the most friendly or inviting human being around. UM. So
if you had any of his affection, it was it
was it was rare. And I know you've got some
stories about that. UM. But the first talking point I
want to talk about was, like I said, Hogan was
was was was hard to get through too. And his
(01:25):
he had started the bed Hogan Equipment Company, and he
had made an offer to you to to endorse and
play his his his his clubs and equipment, and you
turned that down at a time where you needed a
bit more money. But in hindsight that often may have
had bigger impacts on your game. And if you had
(01:47):
signed with Hogan, what do you think would have happened. Well,
first of all, James, let's uh, but a little bit
more emphasis on ifs. You know people that have been
married and are unhappy and they had had a girlfriend
to choose from, and they say, if only I'd chosen
the other girl, I'd be happy today. Businesses, if I
(02:08):
had made the right decision, I wouldn't have lost all
this abount of money, if I had taken the right
club at the twelfth Hold of Augusta. As we know
that hold has prevented a lot of people from winning.
If that, if it's you know, if it's the dreaded word,
because it's the bottom line in any business accounts. You
(02:30):
can't go along and tell me what a great business
you had. If I've done that, you look at it.
It's the bottom line in life. And talking about Ben Hogan,
who I sincerely believe, I mean I played with a
man like Tommy Armore, which is almost I don't know
seventy years ago, played with Gene Sarah's and sat with
(02:51):
Bobby Jones. Many of the great players of the past
that are young people today don't realize quite how great
they were. But be that as it may, ben Hogan,
having watched him and played with him, and watching him
use the lazy equipment and LaSIE ball spike marks on
the green fairway mower is not good green mowers, bunk
(03:13):
is not raped like they are today, no prize money.
Traveling by car and watching him play golf, I never
saw anybody that could hit the ball like he did.
It was absolutely remarkable. He knew more about the swing
than anybody I'd ever met in my life. I met
a lot of people that are very knowledgeable, but he's
the only man I met that knows a swing from
A to Z A lot, no from A to yuh.
(03:37):
And I'm gonna come back to the the ifs, but
it's important to make you understand how great he was.
I hear people talking about the swing, and I hear
so much nonsense about the swing. It's quite unbelievable. But
now take Hogan. He wins nine major championships in his career,
but the war breaks out and he and Sam Snead
(03:57):
and a host of others have got to go to war.
So Hogan now doesn't play for five years and majors
and then comes back and has the most dreadful accident,
a life threatening accident, and he basically doesn't play in
a major championship, uh, approximately thirty two, and he's pride,
(04:19):
and he's pride. Now everybody, you know, we said, if
only he never had that accident. Well, it's unfortunate that
he had the accident, but it will always be remembered
that he won nine majors. A lot of people won't
even know that he went to war. Imagine telling Tiger
Woods that he had to go to war. Would he
had one x amount of majors? And you know, you
can't imagine that. So all these ifs, I mean, if
(04:43):
you look at the Grand Slam, Sam sneed, he if
only he'd made a part, if only he had made
a bogey in Pennsylvania to win the US Open. They
didn't have scoreboards in those days like now, so he
thought he need at a birdie to win the US Open,
and all he needed was a bogey. So then you
(05:05):
go and you're long, and you see if Tom Watson
had only won the p G A of Arnold Palmer,
the only one that p G A. Uh, you can
go on with all these people that's so close to
winning the Grand Slam. Their players today, Rory McIlory needs
it about for Michaels And there's a great if if
any second five times in the US Open, if only
(05:27):
he had won one time, but he never and so
it doesn't go down in the record book as a
Grand Slam. There are so many ifs in this sport.
It's unbelievable. And one has got to try and train
your mind to realize when you first start, no, if, no,
if they don't count. So the first thing I did
(05:50):
want to ask was maybe you can give a bit
of light on when you first met Hogan Um and
and how that came about. I played in the US Opened,
my first US Open ever. It's Southern Hills in Oklahoma,
very hot. The rough was the highest rough I've ever
(06:10):
seen in a major that and in Alabama when we
played the p GA there. But I played with him
the first dis holes and I was a bit nervous, obviously,
and I went on to the first heat. I said
good morning, sir, and I took my head. He said
(06:31):
morning fella. Uh. And then on the thirty six hole,
I was lying sick into Tommy Bolt at that stage,
and I played very well. He said, well played, son.
So he said five words basically in thirty six holes.
And somebody said, well, why was he so talkative? He
normally doesn't say anything. But I was sitting in the
locker room and his back towards to me. He tapped
(06:55):
me on the shoulder and I turned around in his
face was right here against mine, and he said, you
go and be a great player one day's son. And
I said, Mr Hogan, you don't know what that means
to me. And then he was going into the locker
into the dining room from the locker room, and he
was cambly dressed, and he had his jacket half on
his shoulders and half off. And Nicholas always loves the
story because Nicholas knows that I hit more balls than
(07:19):
any human being ever. And Hogan turned around. He said,
you you practice hard, son. I wanted to say, just
as hard as you do, and I just said yes, sir,
and he says, double it, and he walked into the
dining room. Now, it's not possible to have doubled what
I did, but he was a very unusual man. He
then sent one of his representatives to ask me if
(07:41):
i'd sign up with the Ben Hogan Company at two
thousand dollars a year. Remember this is this is sixty
years ago, so if you look at inflation, it's not
that bad. At the time, it wasn't that bad. But Vivian,
my wife, and I were traveling back and forth to
South Africa and around the world. We needed money to travel,
(08:02):
and that same day first light man called Jack Hawkins
offered me nine thousand, and I pondered and pondered, and
I took the nine thousand. Did I do the right thing?
I don't know. If I'd taken the two thousand, I
would have probably ended up living in America, having a
house next to Hogan, and he would have put me
(08:24):
under my wing and with his knowledge things that I
found out that he did at the age of seventy,
I might have one, not might have a definitely would
have won more majors because I wouldn't have had to
do all the exhausting travel with no jets, forty hours
from here to South Africa, no earphones, no TV, with
(08:46):
all those children, six children traveling. Would have made a
big difference in my life. But you can't go back
and say if it didn't happen, it was such an
honor that Hogan because he didn't have anybody else, he
didn't sign up, he didn't believe in it at that stage,
and what an honor for him to offer me. My
goodness me and I look back in retrospect and say, well,
(09:08):
if I'd sided with him, what would have happened? But
I've had a wonderful life, very happy life, great family,
great wife, and hundred and sixty five tournaments and also
to be the early man in the world to win
the Grand Slam on both to it, How much more
success could I have? Well, I mean, Hogan always spoke, well,
(09:31):
the rumor is that he'd found the secret to the swing,
you know, he'd and he never did divulge that information
to to anyone um, you know, So whether he'd found
the secret, and maybe you can shed some lights on
on on on what you think that secret might have been.
But had he say in his early we need signed
(09:52):
you up, and he'd spoken in your prime about what
may have been the secret that may have had, you know,
it's hard to quantify the impact of that might have
had on your game. Well, that's right, and he uh,
he did a story in a Life magazine where he
had the club face very open at the top of
the back swing, and he had the great rotation of
(10:16):
his left side into the ball. But you see what
he did have as a thing called it um. I've
only seen about in my seventy years of playing, about
fifteen players plus minus that have got it. Now, what
is it? Iicon describe it? You watch your man like
Lee Trevino, he aims a hundred yards left at the
(10:40):
target and next to Hogan from t to green, he
was the finest striker of a ball that I saw.
So there's so many different theories. But but Hogan definitely
had a secret. And you've got to have a swing
that works under pressure. Now, it's one thing to play
(11:01):
arounds in practice and score low and even go as
far as winning a few majors. But you've got to
have a swing that's going to work under pressure. And
there's certain things and the golf thing that allow you
to work under pressure. And wouldn't like to get into that.
Now that's a long thing, a long story. But I've
(11:22):
learned so much of the swing, you know, having hit
more balls and being around all these top players, and
I've learned so much about the swing that my goodness
me Hogan he was the genius of all times. But
you're talking about Trevina. If if he'd won the Masters,
you know, you can have Arnold Palmer won the p
g A. There must be fifty ifs that I can
(11:45):
give you in my career. There's so many potential ifs.
If you if you consider how the Augusta Nationals prepared
these days, and the quality of the greens and the
quality of the bankers um and just generally golf torn months.
You know, when Hogan was in his prime, there were
times where you couldn't fix pitchmarks on the green um.
(12:06):
You know, now people are tapping down spike marks. So
had had Hogan played in this era, what you know,
if he had played, what would how many majors would
he have one. That's a very good point. I remember
Wotherdy playing golf. When you're ball buried in the green,
you had to play it. I remember my brother in law,
(12:28):
Bobby Verwait playing at that at the Open, the British
Open and at Birkedale, and he hit his in the
very first hole he had. He's bought his third wedge
shot and had buried in the green fifteen foot from
the flag. And he called for a ruling. Can I
get relief? And the RNA man came out and said, no,
you've got to play it was buried in the green.
(12:49):
He took out his sad wedge and two inches behind,
took a big swipe, came out of a hundred miles
and now hit the flag and went in the hole.
From then on they realized we've got to change that.
There were some prehistoric rules in golf. If you tip
the sand as you were going back and the back
string and the bunk, it was a two short penalty
you hit the ball out of bounds. He had to
(13:11):
play three from the tea and get a man standing
next to you. He whipped the ball and he played two.
You had a great shot and luckily it bounced out
of bounds and another man with the ball, and he
was better off than you are. So thank goodness to
the R and A and the U. S. T. A.
In the PGA. They've come to the conclusion they've had
a continuously changed rules. Think about putting the spike marks
(13:32):
on the green. I mean there were two hundred spiker
They didn't have lowers to cut the green. I mean
the fairways that Augusta were terrible. I remember the thirteenth hold.
I could easily have gone. I played Arnold Palmer in
the playoffs and the thirteenth hold we were almost even.
No I was still I was ahead of him at
that stage and I had to lay up. I couldn't
(13:54):
go for the green. It was allows he led. The
greens were slow and roughish, rough. How you've got greens
that are well. I never dreamt I would ever see
a green like that. Hogan never dreamt he would see
a green like it. The fairway is impeccable, not a wee.
Bunker's absolutely raked with a machine. And they the same
(14:14):
depth in Timber two in South Africa, Australian America. She
was I just think the advancements that that have been
made in the game. It's remarkable and it's great. What
(14:36):
is new today is the ball goes fifty yards further
and the clubs. I mean, here I am if I
missed one fairway a day, I'm upset. I couldn't do
that in my prime. Golf is so much easier today.
It's a joke. I'd love to have seen what had
happened if Sam's need Lee, Trevina, Tom Watson. But do
(14:56):
you not do you not think that you know, obviously
it's easy to look back and say, well, if these
guys had had this, this technology, what they would have done.
But the fact that the game was so difficult because
of the equipment that Hogan and you know, Bobby Jones
and those kind of those guys played with. Don't you
(15:17):
think that that kind of you know, took them to
a level where they had to figure things out because,
for example, the secret, you know what, whatever whatever Hogan's
secret was to the game, he had to figure it
out because he had to understand the swing to on
a level that was um that was required of him
because the equipment was so difficult. You had to swing
almost perfectly to to to be able to play exactly.
(15:39):
I see players today, and I've seen them playing and
they would in golf dourments and I see three faults
and they're swing three faults in their swing, and yet
they continue to win golf. If you had that three
faults when you played with the equipment, then the old
days you certainly wouldn't be able to win golf tournaments.
Of course they can recover. You know today some players
are geniuses from fifty yards and might not be in
(16:02):
the top fifty on the turn striking the ball. I
can think of a player on the tour now he's
not He probably is probably the worst player from t
to green on the tour, but he's a phenomenal player
from fifty yards in so you can get away with it.
So the short game, it was never forget. The short
game is what wins golf torments. If you you talk
(16:25):
about at the tourment and Revera, you talk about Arnold
Partner's tournament, well, particularly Arnold's Partners tourment in Orlando, they
were talking about the Golf channel. All they spoke about
was the great distance that the shambro was hitting the ball.
I love Deschambre. He's a gentleman, he's a smart, smart,
(16:49):
smarter than anybody playing golf today. He's a very very
highly intelligent man, and he's worked out things that are phenomenal.
But they spoke about all they spoke about the long driving,
and there that he was playing with the Westward and
Lee Westward lost by one shot and he put his
ball in a divot on the last hole and couldn't
even shoot for the flag. The thing that won the
(17:11):
tourment for deschambro he padded like Tarzan. They've admitted to
say during the tournament the reason deschambro one was because
he putted like Tarzan. All they spoke about, well, he
was out driving Westward by ninety yards, so over the
entire week, the way they were talking, you would have
thought he would have beaten Westward by fifteen shots. No,
(17:34):
he beat him by one shot, and Westwood made a
five on a par five with a seven iron in
his hand and hitting the ball in a divot on
the last hole. Putting is what wins golf tourments, and
the great mind, the thing called it, and not many
people have blessed with that thing called it can on
that point, and you can, you obviously can speak further
(17:56):
to this point. But Hogan was an incredible ball striker.
I mean, you've got stories of you know what Sam
Seed was saying about him hitting the ball in the
same to it that he played the day before, and
I think you mentioned was it continusity where he was
hitting his his drive between the bunker and and the
(18:17):
out of barsteak And you can hopefully can tell us
so stories. Um. But from the books I've read on Hogan,
he his putting wasn't his his strength, and in his
book The Five Fundamentals, apparently he doesn't even talk about putting. Um,
how do you think he was so successful without, you know,
(18:38):
on the fact that his putting actually wasn't his strength.
To the contrary, when he was a young man and
Plague his best, he was a very good pattern but
he got the yips quite early in his career and
he was very much engaged putting that he believed that
a green you should hit a green and it should
be like a final and run into the hole. Well,
you know that's too extreme. But to give you an
(19:02):
idea of how well he hit the ball, card Noosti,
which is one of the toughest golf courses in the world.
The six holes of our five is out of bounds
on the left and pot bunkers just to the right,
and the width of the fairway is probably yards. And
he put the ball between the outer bounds and that bunker.
(19:23):
Every day in the torment, nobody tried it. They all
have the ball well to the right and the banker,
uh and never even thought about doing that. Now, this man,
the shots that he played, and the way he swung
the club. If you, if anybody wants to see the
greatest swring ever, just get Hogan swinging at the British Open,
(19:46):
the Open, and and you'll realize just what an incredible
swing he had. And and and you have a story
about Sneed and and what our Sneed fells about. Um,
he was always quite I don't know where it is.
(20:06):
Word is jealous or envious or irritated. And I think
that the word was irritated because when Sneed and Hogan
went met in playoffs, Steed always beat him, except Hogan
beat him at Houston and in a match TV match.
But they said to Sneed, you know, Sam, that Ben
Hogan hits the ball so straight that he puts his
(20:27):
drive and the same divant he was yesterday, he said,
if only, if he's that straight, why doesn't he hit
to the right or the left of the divot? And
you know he irritated him quite a lot that But
Sam Snead was the greatest athlete they've ever played golf.
And those days they didn't have gyms that you're on
the tour where you could conveniently go to after your
(20:48):
round of golf. At sixty five, he would kicked the
door in the locker room. He would walk in and
touch the ground flat handed. He would uh, he'd be
able to take a ball out of the cup. He'd
take the ball out of a cup with his legs straight.
This man was a piece of rubber and he was strong.
And if it wasn't there again, if it wasn't for
(21:11):
the war, he would have definitely won the Grand Slam,
not not even a question about it. But it's it's
the it's actually if equals said, if equals said, but
it's a reality, isn't isn't that? Isn't that part of
a life? I mean, you've got gifts of your own. Um.
You know, at the end of the day, a lot
of yts um. And it is it is sad because
(21:33):
you know it would be nice if they weren't. In
years things that, regardless of you are in your life,
there will always been if the rules of life. If
I traveled from South Africa to America five six times
a year in those non jets, and I lived in America,
I would have definitely one more majors, not even a
(21:54):
question about it. But I wanted to be with my family,
and it was tough traveling. I mean, can you imagine
you're granny traveling with six children's taking forty hours and
traveling at two D thirty miles. So, I mean, there
are a lot of ifs about it. If I mean right,
that applies so, and you know, I think about it
(22:14):
all the time, all these ifs that occurred in in
my seventy years as a professional golfer. It's quite remarkable. Um,
I wanted to ask. The one thing I found quite
interesting about Hogan was how long it took him to
actually become a winner. You know, he took a long time,
(22:35):
and he struggled. He didn't do particularly well for the
first I don't know, probably decade of his career, and
then you know, once he started winning, he became more prolific.
Why you know, for someone who was so talented and
had worked so hard. What do you think, what do
you think was the reason that it took him so
long to win? And why did it start happening, and
(22:55):
why was he then so unbeatable when it did start happening. Well,
first of all, all he played golf with quite a
shut face um, which some players are doing. But you've
seen throughout time Arnold Palmer as a shut face golfer,
and that's why Arnold only one majors for six years,
(23:16):
whereas Nicknas won for twenty five years and I one
for twenty. Shut face golfers, your career is very very
limited for a length of time. A man like Dustin Johnson,
he's a phenomenal golfer, but he's a he's a there again,
he's completely different. He's very very strong in the hands,
(23:38):
and he is a very very long back string. He's tall,
so he has time to recover. But most shut place golfers,
their golf careers are pretty limited, as we've seen through
our time. Although today you can get away with it
more because of the metal head and I never have
read this in a magazine. The re is you could
(24:00):
get away with being shut faced today because of the
metal head and because the ball doesn't hook and fade
as much. So there's a reason. But you certainly couldn't
do that um with a wooden head. Now you will
be able to get away with it with this equipment
that you use today. That's a very significant thing that
we've just said right now. Hogan won his first major
(24:23):
thirty four, whereas now the most I don't care what
performance you like to give me in sport, there has
never been anything that compares to Tiger Woods. I won
the Grand Slab of twenty nine, and I said to
your granny, nobody will do that at twenty nine. Again,
Nicholas came along and wanted the twenty six. Tiger came
(24:47):
along and wanted a twenty four. There's nothing in sports
that compere that. So many players have never players that
have one major's had never even played in a major
at twenty four. I mean what he did do that
at twenty four years of age. Nothing nothing in sports.
And I've got great respect for all men and women
that have achieved greatness. Nothing compares to that. So with
(25:12):
regards to Hogan, your feeling is that the fact that
he was struggling with the hooks and the fact that
his club face was so shut at the top. Do
you think that him figuring out, you know from what
I've heard you say before, that his hands had to
be under the shaft um. Do you think that him
having an open club face and figuring that out allowed
(25:32):
him to play with the consistency that he later became
known for. Yes, But he also had extremely extremely fast hips.
You see, I listened to people on giving commentary on
golf saying their hips out raised their hands. That's not possible.
The faster your hips work, the faster your hands work.
(25:54):
Here such rubbish. It's just scary. So but anyway, Hogan
also had a very strong group, strong left handed group,
and his swing was too upright. And you never be
a very you there are exception. You look at Dustin Johnson.
He's an exception, and there are exceptions in the sport.
Trevino is an exception. Aiming way he left the way
(26:16):
he did and played. There are these exceptions. But you've
got to have a flattish swing, which helps you to
hit the inside of the ball when you're playing golf
instead of the outside. And you he what he did.
He realized that he flattened his swing. I spoke him
about that. He said to me, your swing can't be
too flat as long as your hands are under the shaft.
(26:38):
And that's what he said at Semino Golf Club and
nine in fifty seven. To me, I didn't understand what
he was talking about. It sounded like hieroglyphics. At seventy
I suddenly worked out what he was saying. But be
that as it may, and this is a game that
we will continue learning forever. Hogan was he was a
strong group. He was too upright, and he had too
(26:59):
much of a C. A C any swing that is
when you're back in your hip suffard and your back
is back. That's the C swing. And he changed that
to a flatter swing with a weaker grip, which you
had to do with the old shafts and would that
we played with I had a very weak group. Now
(27:20):
with this metal, I have a very strong lift hated group,
and I cannot hook the ball. Now if I did
that with with would, I would have hit such duck hooks.
You wouldn't have believed it. So it's horses for courses,
and the most prevalent thing in is not the prize money.
I think the biggest change in golf is being able
(27:43):
to travel rapidly. I think the the prize money obviously
is just unbelievable, but the equipment the Lord Mother is
Byron Nelson so appropriately said the Lord murmur a difference.
Can you see these guys holding puts from all over today,
(28:05):
and let me tell you something that the putters like
in our time. Bobby Locke from South Africa was definitely
the best pudd of that eveloved because he putted like
tiger on bad greens. Bob Charles doug Ford, Arnold Palmer,
Jack Nicholas, you can go down the line, Ben Crench
or phenomenal pudders. Impossible to be better, impossible to be better.
(28:29):
So when it does, it just that's the thing. The
human being is very resilient. The human being can adjust
to things. When I was traveling and traveling with no
jets all over the world and having to play against
all those players in their home country, that's what I
wanted to do. I'll give you an example. I played
with Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicholas and the World Cup
(28:51):
at St. Noombla Brotess in France, and the round was
pombed out on the Sunday. So the travel agent cab
and said, look, you're going to the Australian Open at
Royal Melbourne. I can now get you there the morning
that you're going to be teeing off three hours before
the torment starts. Arnold and Jackson, We're not going. I went.
(29:14):
I traveled to Australia from France, sixteen time change whatever
it is, arrived there, actually arrived three hours before and
never seen Royal Melbourne. Gave me another set of clubs
and another ball, and I hear people being fussy about
the ball they use. It just makes me laugh. And
I won the Australian Open by seven shots. It just
(29:39):
shows you how important the mind is. This is the thing.
As a young player starting today, the swing is not
the thing. Patting is the thing, and the mind is
the thing. And as I'm going to be repetitive and say,
in my seventy years of playing, I've seen plus minus
fifteen players with the mind that really counts that mine
(30:03):
equals it. It is it? What is it? Nobody can
describe it, no analysts, no scritters, no pro golfer, no wife,
no husband. It's a gift. That is bestowed upon you,
and I wish I could describe it. Tom Weiskoff, my
dear friend, who unfortunately is not that well at this moment.
(30:25):
We wished him the best. He was a better golfer
Jack Nicholas, but he and he admitted himself, he just
didn't have that little thing called it. He didn't have
the mind to go along with his greatness. And although
he played unbelievably well, how good would he have been
if you've taken Nicholas's head and put it on wiskaf Well,
(30:48):
that would have been there's the biggest for game. You
see the big ift for game. But that didn't happen.
I mean, if if you can bring out the most
remarkable stories with if, honestly, it's just a fascinating So
(31:13):
when did you meet Hogan Um? And my recollection was
is that you met in the ninety seven at Seminal
Um And so what can you explain a little bit
of the background of of that that actual meeting before
you end up playing with him in the use open Well,
I watched him practice that week. I sat behind him.
(31:35):
Actually he hipped down the hip down the ninth hole.
I watched him practice for hours He never even turned
around and acknowledged me. He never said anything. He didn't
know me, actually. And then a man running the torment,
Chris Dumphy, wonderful man. I'll remember at the club Several,
which is a beautiful golf course steeped in tradition. And
(32:01):
Christoph he said to me, who would you likee? He
liked me and I liked him, and he was very arrogant,
and he said to me, who do you want to
play with in the tournament? I said, Ben Hogan. He says,
you've got him, and those days they can do that
kind of thing. And I played with him and we
got to the ninth hole. He hadn't said a word
to me, just good morning, that's all. We've got the
(32:21):
ninth hole. There was a long hold up, and he
said to me, ah, congratulations on your torment. You won
last week in England. And I shot at what a
tourment in England and I shot seventy sixty six seventy
something like that and beat Bobby Jones's record, and I
(32:44):
said thanks, Mr Hogan. And I said, but the pros
they said I should go back home because my string
was too flat and I'd never make it and he
walked up to me and he put his face right
here and he says, you can't beat too flats as
long as your hands are of the shift, and then
he spoke about other things. I didn't understand what he
(33:04):
was saying. And isn't that there again? If only I
had understood, I wouldn't have been second in those seven majors.
I would have one at least three of those, but
it doesn't count. And I have a picture as we're
sitting here right now on my desk. There it is
Ben Hogan starting his backs ring and it's quite fascinating.
(33:30):
And this was at Oakland Hills in Michigan, where he
brought the course those days. That course was very tough
for the wooden clubs and the balls, and it was
known as one of the tough golf courses. On the
turn he said he shot sixty seven and one day
open and he said I eventually brought this course to
(33:50):
its knees, which was a fascinating saying. But now and
then I can remember I shot seventy three in our
lay with him, and the shot making he made in
that wound was just so remarkable. That had a sound
when he hit them all over that. It was like
(34:11):
taking a sheet and tearing it. Ah, what a golf swing?
What a mind? You see if you look at the
minds when I'm talking about that, it take Hogan, take Nicholas,
take Tiger, just those three, not dwelving into all the
other place. They were very different. Their minds were completely different.
(34:34):
So it was noticeable when they played, really noticeable. What
did they have. I can't tell you. I can't tell
you what it is, but it was very, very noticeable.
And now can you imagine as we're going now, if
I was a young man, I wouldn't be just worrying
about the swing as the thing. I'd worry about being
the best printer on the turk, and I'd work on
(34:57):
my mind. But I'd work on my mind with somebody
that played, that had been in the arena. That's a
big difference to talk about things you've read, but to
get and have knowledge from people that have actually been
in the arena. That's why I've valued so much what
Hogan said. I had a lot of people wanting to
tell me things that had never really been in the arena,
(35:18):
but they've read about it. But when Hogan said something,
I digested it. And I've got to tell you another
great story about Bobby Lock. I was talking about his putting.
Now Bobby Lock came across yet he just played Sam
Snead in South Africa. Twenty two matches Snead one too.
They tied to and locked one sixteen. So Lot Sneed
(35:40):
came back and said, all the guys, you better beat
this guy, Bobby Lock when he comes over here. He
puts so well, you've never seen anything like it. Well,
Bobby Lock came over and won seven out of eleven tournaments,
and then they barred him from playing. But I was
at Tamashan to the last Tamishan to the head. George
s May sponsored it. If you won the tourment in Chicago,
(36:00):
you've got fifty exhibitions at a thousand dollars a time,
which was like a million dollars at that time. And
Lloyd Mangram, who was another very tough guy, came very nice,
maybe very tough on the golf course, came up to Lock.
He said, a muffin face. He gave Lock the name
muffin face was locked out, a fat face. He said
(36:21):
that Sam Sneeed says, you can play. Would you like
to have me a bitter sweet Locks is very quiet,
cut said yes I would. He says, well, I'll have
my Cadillac against your cadillac. Lock said that's fine. And
so they played, and I think Locke beat him by
at least seventeen shots in the torn and Lloyd Magram
honored his word, came up and gave him the keys
(36:43):
to the car. And Locke used to call me captain.
He said, captain. I'm sure happy I didn't lose that
bit because I don't know the Cadillac, but the guy's
better those days. Was remarkable how they bet that's the
way they could make a little bit of money. You
look at Sam Snead and Ben Hogan, two the sixth
(37:06):
greatest players have ever lived. They didn't even make in
the entire careers. What players make for finishing tenth and
two tournaments. That's food for thought. Yeah. Um, so I
wanted to ask the the two stories that I still
want you to cover, you know, with with regards to Hogan,
(37:29):
the first was was you had you had been I
don't know who the person you were just having discussion with,
but you were arguing a point in the golf swing
and so you gave. You try to give Hogan a
court to clarify this point, and he was as friendly
as ever. Well, ah, I Hogan got the needle to
(37:52):
me because I didn't sign up with him. And I
can understand that, you know, because it was like I
suppose you can say it was a slap in the face,
but it wasn't. I had to. I had to. I
had to sign up for somebody else, even though I'm sorry.
I might have made a mistake, but I needed the money.
I couldn't live without the money being so far away.
So anyway, I know he I knew his best friend
(38:15):
and he was one of my best friends. And he said,
your phone Hogan at five to eight. He's only mean,
He's not very mean. So I was in Brazil and
I've phoned him at five to eight and n I said,
Mr Hogan, good evening. This is Gary Player here. He says, yep.
I said, I'd like to ask you a question, if
I may. I don't believe in giveaway programs. What is that? So?
(38:38):
I said, Mr Hogan, We're having a debate about the
backswing with a young American friend of mine here, and
I'd like to ask you to rectify what is correct?
Dead silence on the phone. Yeah, I said hello, Hello,
He says, I'm here, I'm here. He says, I want
to be real curt with you, fellow. I've never heard
the word could, and I think I did reasonably would
(39:02):
at English in school. He said, I want to be
real court with your fellow. He says, who do you
represent on the I said that the Dunklop company, says
called Mr Dunlop and put the phone down on me.
They were tough and those those they were quick, whereas
now licking Nicholas. On the other hand, I played Nicholas
(39:22):
in the final of the World Match Play Championship twice
in England, a long thirty six old golf course we've
played homes. I beat him six and four and five
and four. He came up to me, put his arm
around me and he said, well played. Nicholas was the
greatest gentleman I ever played. I also think he's the
best designer of golf courses today. And I was on
(39:46):
the tea and I was not hitting the ball very well,
and he said, why don't you just make you're right
hand a little weaker? And I went on to play
so well and actually beat the daylights out of him.
That's the kind of man at Nicholas was four years
they were not like that and those other days because
there was no prize money and it was a different era.
(40:08):
So there's another if. And then the one. The last
story I wanted to ask you about was your experience
with Hogan and at the Champions dinner Augusta. Well, that
that was an experience second to none. We were sitting
at the dinner and we were at the lower locker
(40:29):
room in those days, and I didn't have a tablecloth
and didn't have the ambiance of the room that we
have now, which is unbelievable. As you know, Augusta is
the best run golf tourment in the world, and things
are just perfect because they do have the tourment at
the same place every year, which is an advantage to
(40:49):
know what to cater for. But we were sitting at
a very hard table in the locker room and I
this was I was I think I was defending champion
that year, and this book came around and everybody was
signing it, and it came to me and I signed it,
and I was sitting next to Hogan, and I'll put
it in front of him, and I wish you could
have seen a look on his face. And I you know,
(41:11):
I don't like swearing, so I'm not going to tell
you exactly what he said. He wasn't exactly a swear word,
but it wasn't what I'd like to hear. And he
looked and he looked, and he suddenly stood up and
he took this book, slammed it on the table and
he said, who passed us? Damn book up here? And
Houghton Smith, who was a thorough gentleman and had won
(41:34):
the Masters the first time, sit up and said, Ben,
I've got a junior at my club, and I thought
it would be very encouraging for him to get the
signatures of the Masters. He said, Haughton, this is the
Master's club that I started. This is not a damn
autograph session club. Don't you ever send another book up
(41:56):
to be signed? And now you look what happens. Now
we go in the locker room, just a complete opposite.
Everybody starting at least fifty flags. Everybody's signing flags, flag flag,
which actually is a nice thing because it goes for
the betterment of golf. It goes to charities, and after all,
(42:18):
we so lucky in our lives, lucky to be at
playing golf in America, this great country, and to be
playing in a torment like Augusta, and it helps so
many a variety of charities, which is fantastic. So things
have changed, Things have changed, and changed is the price
(42:39):
of survival. I always listen to people saying, oh that
that politicians are flip flop or that guy's a flip flop. Well,
I would hope you would be a flip flop because
changes the price of survival. What I believed in as
a young man and ideas I had in my career
about various subjects of all change. That's for the betterment
(43:02):
of the human being. So it was fascinating. And the
dinner there that in, the dinner at the r n
A at the British Open are two of the greatest
evenings of your life. Well we can only take your
word for that. Yeah you Unfortunately you'll never be invited,
(43:26):
even with all your talent. Yeah, don't forget to subscribe
to the Player series on Apple, Spotify or wherever you
get your podcast.
UM. So we've we've had some discussions on the topic
of if if, and you know what that has, you
know what impact that has on on on a career,
and you know, if certain things had happened, how wold
things have potentially turned out. I know that you're a
firm believer in the fact that at the end of
(00:24):
the day, the record book is what's written down on
paper and not what could have happened if something else
had not happened. And I think that that's very true
for certain golfers. I mean, you know, if we talk
about Tiger Woods, UM, you know, if he had one,
if he had not had the injuries he'd had and
any of the indiscretions, he may have gone on to
(00:44):
in twenty plus majors, but as the record stands, he's
got fifteen. So on that point, UM, And one of
the IF talking points that I thought we should cover
was you had a very special relationship with Hogan. UM.
I think from what from what I understand, he wasn't
(01:05):
the most friendly or inviting human being around. UM. So
if you had any of his affection, it was it
was it was rare. And I know you've got some
stories about that. UM. But the first talking point I
want to talk about was, like I said, Hogan was
was was was hard to get through too. And his
(01:25):
he had started the bed Hogan Equipment Company, and he
had made an offer to you to to endorse and
play his his his his clubs and equipment, and you
turned that down at a time where you needed a
bit more money. But in hindsight that often may have
had bigger impacts on your game. And if you had
(01:47):
signed with Hogan, what do you think would have happened. Well,
first of all, James, let's uh, but a little bit
more emphasis on ifs. You know people that have been
married and are unhappy and they had had a girlfriend
to choose from, and they say, if only I'd chosen
the other girl, I'd be happy today. Businesses, if I
(02:08):
had made the right decision, I wouldn't have lost all
this abount of money, if I had taken the right
club at the twelfth Hold of Augusta. As we know
that hold has prevented a lot of people from winning.
If that, if it's you know, if it's the dreaded word,
because it's the bottom line in any business accounts. You
(02:30):
can't go along and tell me what a great business
you had. If I've done that, you look at it.
It's the bottom line in life. And talking about Ben Hogan,
who I sincerely believe, I mean I played with a
man like Tommy Armore, which is almost I don't know
seventy years ago, played with Gene Sarah's and sat with
(02:51):
Bobby Jones. Many of the great players of the past
that are young people today don't realize quite how great
they were. But be that as it may, ben Hogan,
having watched him and played with him, and watching him
use the lazy equipment and LaSIE ball spike marks on
the green fairway mower is not good green mowers, bunk
(03:13):
is not raped like they are today, no prize money.
Traveling by car and watching him play golf, I never
saw anybody that could hit the ball like he did.
It was absolutely remarkable. He knew more about the swing
than anybody I'd ever met in my life. I met
a lot of people that are very knowledgeable, but he's
the only man I met that knows a swing from
A to Z A lot, no from A to yuh.
(03:37):
And I'm gonna come back to the the ifs, but
it's important to make you understand how great he was.
I hear people talking about the swing, and I hear
so much nonsense about the swing. It's quite unbelievable. But
now take Hogan. He wins nine major championships in his career,
but the war breaks out and he and Sam Snead
(03:57):
and a host of others have got to go to war.
So Hogan now doesn't play for five years and majors
and then comes back and has the most dreadful accident,
a life threatening accident, and he basically doesn't play in
a major championship, uh, approximately thirty two, and he's pride,
(04:19):
and he's pride. Now everybody, you know, we said, if
only he never had that accident. Well, it's unfortunate that
he had the accident, but it will always be remembered
that he won nine majors. A lot of people won't
even know that he went to war. Imagine telling Tiger
Woods that he had to go to war. Would he
had one x amount of majors? And you know, you
can't imagine that. So all these ifs, I mean, if
(04:43):
you look at the Grand Slam, Sam sneed, he if
only he'd made a part, if only he had made
a bogey in Pennsylvania to win the US Open. They
didn't have scoreboards in those days like now, so he
thought he need at a birdie to win the US Open,
and all he needed was a bogey. So then you
(05:05):
go and you're long, and you see if Tom Watson
had only won the p G A of Arnold Palmer,
the only one that p G A. Uh, you can
go on with all these people that's so close to
winning the Grand Slam. Their players today, Rory McIlory needs
it about for Michaels And there's a great if if
any second five times in the US Open, if only
(05:27):
he had won one time, but he never and so
it doesn't go down in the record book as a
Grand Slam. There are so many ifs in this sport.
It's unbelievable. And one has got to try and train
your mind to realize when you first start, no, if, no,
if they don't count. So the first thing I did
(05:50):
want to ask was maybe you can give a bit
of light on when you first met Hogan Um and
and how that came about. I played in the US Opened,
my first US Open ever. It's Southern Hills in Oklahoma,
very hot. The rough was the highest rough I've ever
(06:10):
seen in a major that and in Alabama when we
played the p GA there. But I played with him
the first dis holes and I was a bit nervous, obviously,
and I went on to the first heat. I said
good morning, sir, and I took my head. He said
(06:31):
morning fella. Uh. And then on the thirty six hole,
I was lying sick into Tommy Bolt at that stage,
and I played very well. He said, well played, son.
So he said five words basically in thirty six holes.
And somebody said, well, why was he so talkative? He
normally doesn't say anything. But I was sitting in the
locker room and his back towards to me. He tapped
(06:55):
me on the shoulder and I turned around in his
face was right here against mine, and he said, you
go and be a great player one day's son. And
I said, Mr Hogan, you don't know what that means
to me. And then he was going into the locker
into the dining room from the locker room, and he
was cambly dressed, and he had his jacket half on
his shoulders and half off. And Nicholas always loves the
story because Nicholas knows that I hit more balls than
(07:19):
any human being ever. And Hogan turned around. He said,
you you practice hard, son. I wanted to say, just
as hard as you do, and I just said yes, sir,
and he says, double it, and he walked into the
dining room. Now, it's not possible to have doubled what
I did, but he was a very unusual man. He
then sent one of his representatives to ask me if
(07:41):
i'd sign up with the Ben Hogan Company at two
thousand dollars a year. Remember this is this is sixty
years ago, so if you look at inflation, it's not
that bad. At the time, it wasn't that bad. But Vivian,
my wife, and I were traveling back and forth to
South Africa and around the world. We needed money to travel,
(08:02):
and that same day first light man called Jack Hawkins
offered me nine thousand, and I pondered and pondered, and
I took the nine thousand. Did I do the right thing?
I don't know. If I'd taken the two thousand, I
would have probably ended up living in America, having a
house next to Hogan, and he would have put me
(08:24):
under my wing and with his knowledge things that I
found out that he did at the age of seventy,
I might have one, not might have a definitely would
have won more majors because I wouldn't have had to
do all the exhausting travel with no jets, forty hours
from here to South Africa, no earphones, no TV, with
(08:46):
all those children, six children traveling. Would have made a
big difference in my life. But you can't go back
and say if it didn't happen, it was such an
honor that Hogan because he didn't have anybody else, he
didn't sign up, he didn't believe in it at that stage,
and what an honor for him to offer me. My
goodness me and I look back in retrospect and say, well,
(09:08):
if I'd sided with him, what would have happened? But
I've had a wonderful life, very happy life, great family,
great wife, and hundred and sixty five tournaments and also
to be the early man in the world to win
the Grand Slam on both to it, How much more
success could I have? Well, I mean, Hogan always spoke, well,
(09:31):
the rumor is that he'd found the secret to the swing,
you know, he'd and he never did divulge that information
to to anyone um, you know, So whether he'd found
the secret, and maybe you can shed some lights on
on on on what you think that secret might have been.
But had he say in his early we need signed
(09:52):
you up, and he'd spoken in your prime about what
may have been the secret that may have had, you know,
it's hard to quantify the impact of that might have
had on your game. Well, that's right, and he uh,
he did a story in a Life magazine where he
had the club face very open at the top of
the back swing, and he had the great rotation of
(10:16):
his left side into the ball. But you see what
he did have as a thing called it um. I've
only seen about in my seventy years of playing, about
fifteen players plus minus that have got it. Now, what
is it? Iicon describe it? You watch your man like
Lee Trevino, he aims a hundred yards left at the
(10:40):
target and next to Hogan from t to green, he
was the finest striker of a ball that I saw.
So there's so many different theories. But but Hogan definitely
had a secret. And you've got to have a swing
that works under pressure. Now, it's one thing to play
(11:01):
arounds in practice and score low and even go as
far as winning a few majors. But you've got to
have a swing that's going to work under pressure. And
there's certain things and the golf thing that allow you
to work under pressure. And wouldn't like to get into that.
Now that's a long thing, a long story. But I've
(11:22):
learned so much of the swing, you know, having hit
more balls and being around all these top players, and
I've learned so much about the swing that my goodness
me Hogan he was the genius of all times. But
you're talking about Trevina. If if he'd won the Masters,
you know, you can have Arnold Palmer won the p
g A. There must be fifty ifs that I can
(11:45):
give you in my career. There's so many potential ifs.
If you if you consider how the Augusta Nationals prepared
these days, and the quality of the greens and the
quality of the bankers um and just generally golf torn months.
You know, when Hogan was in his prime, there were
times where you couldn't fix pitchmarks on the green um.
(12:06):
You know, now people are tapping down spike marks. So
had had Hogan played in this era, what you know,
if he had played, what would how many majors would
he have one. That's a very good point. I remember
Wotherdy playing golf. When you're ball buried in the green,
you had to play it. I remember my brother in law,
(12:28):
Bobby Verwait playing at that at the Open, the British
Open and at Birkedale, and he hit his in the
very first hole he had. He's bought his third wedge
shot and had buried in the green fifteen foot from
the flag. And he called for a ruling. Can I
get relief? And the RNA man came out and said, no,
you've got to play it was buried in the green.
(12:49):
He took out his sad wedge and two inches behind,
took a big swipe, came out of a hundred miles
and now hit the flag and went in the hole.
From then on they realized we've got to change that.
There were some prehistoric rules in golf. If you tip
the sand as you were going back and the back
string and the bunk, it was a two short penalty
you hit the ball out of bounds. He had to
(13:11):
play three from the tea and get a man standing
next to you. He whipped the ball and he played two.
You had a great shot and luckily it bounced out
of bounds and another man with the ball, and he
was better off than you are. So thank goodness to
the R and A and the U. S. T. A.
In the PGA. They've come to the conclusion they've had
a continuously changed rules. Think about putting the spike marks
(13:32):
on the green. I mean there were two hundred spiker
They didn't have lowers to cut the green. I mean
the fairways that Augusta were terrible. I remember the thirteenth hold.
I could easily have gone. I played Arnold Palmer in
the playoffs and the thirteenth hold we were almost even.
No I was still I was ahead of him at
that stage and I had to lay up. I couldn't
(13:54):
go for the green. It was allows he led. The
greens were slow and roughish, rough. How you've got greens
that are well. I never dreamt I would ever see
a green like that. Hogan never dreamt he would see
a green like it. The fairway is impeccable, not a wee.
Bunker's absolutely raked with a machine. And they the same
(14:14):
depth in Timber two in South Africa, Australian America. She
was I just think the advancements that that have been
made in the game. It's remarkable and it's great. What
(14:36):
is new today is the ball goes fifty yards further
and the clubs. I mean, here I am if I
missed one fairway a day, I'm upset. I couldn't do
that in my prime. Golf is so much easier today.
It's a joke. I'd love to have seen what had
happened if Sam's need Lee, Trevina, Tom Watson. But do
(14:56):
you not do you not think that you know, obviously
it's easy to look back and say, well, if these
guys had had this, this technology, what they would have done.
But the fact that the game was so difficult because
of the equipment that Hogan and you know, Bobby Jones
and those kind of those guys played with. Don't you
(15:17):
think that that kind of you know, took them to
a level where they had to figure things out because,
for example, the secret, you know what, whatever whatever Hogan's
secret was to the game, he had to figure it
out because he had to understand the swing to on
a level that was um that was required of him
because the equipment was so difficult. You had to swing
almost perfectly to to to be able to play exactly.
(15:39):
I see players today, and I've seen them playing and
they would in golf dourments and I see three faults
and they're swing three faults in their swing, and yet
they continue to win golf. If you had that three
faults when you played with the equipment, then the old
days you certainly wouldn't be able to win golf tournaments.
Of course they can recover. You know today some players
are geniuses from fifty yards and might not be in
(16:02):
the top fifty on the turn striking the ball. I
can think of a player on the tour now he's
not He probably is probably the worst player from t
to green on the tour, but he's a phenomenal player
from fifty yards in so you can get away with it.
So the short game, it was never forget. The short
game is what wins golf torments. If you you talk
(16:25):
about at the tourment and Revera, you talk about Arnold
Partner's tournament, well, particularly Arnold's Partners tourment in Orlando, they
were talking about the Golf channel. All they spoke about
was the great distance that the shambro was hitting the ball.
I love Deschambre. He's a gentleman, he's a smart, smart,
(16:49):
smarter than anybody playing golf today. He's a very very
highly intelligent man, and he's worked out things that are phenomenal.
But they spoke about all they spoke about the long driving,
and there that he was playing with the Westward and
Lee Westward lost by one shot and he put his
ball in a divot on the last hole and couldn't
even shoot for the flag. The thing that won the
(17:11):
tourment for deschambro he padded like Tarzan. They've admitted to
say during the tournament the reason deschambro one was because
he putted like Tarzan. All they spoke about, well, he
was out driving Westward by ninety yards, so over the
entire week, the way they were talking, you would have
thought he would have beaten Westward by fifteen shots. No,
(17:34):
he beat him by one shot, and Westwood made a
five on a par five with a seven iron in
his hand and hitting the ball in a divot on
the last hole. Putting is what wins golf tourments, and
the great mind, the thing called it, and not many
people have blessed with that thing called it can on
that point, and you can, you obviously can speak further
(17:56):
to this point. But Hogan was an incredible ball striker.
I mean, you've got stories of you know what Sam
Seed was saying about him hitting the ball in the
same to it that he played the day before, and
I think you mentioned was it continusity where he was
hitting his his drive between the bunker and and the
(18:17):
out of barsteak And you can hopefully can tell us
so stories. Um. But from the books I've read on Hogan,
he his putting wasn't his his strength, and in his
book The Five Fundamentals, apparently he doesn't even talk about putting. Um,
how do you think he was so successful without, you know,
(18:38):
on the fact that his putting actually wasn't his strength.
To the contrary, when he was a young man and
Plague his best, he was a very good pattern but
he got the yips quite early in his career and
he was very much engaged putting that he believed that
a green you should hit a green and it should
be like a final and run into the hole. Well,
you know that's too extreme. But to give you an
(19:02):
idea of how well he hit the ball, card Noosti,
which is one of the toughest golf courses in the world.
The six holes of our five is out of bounds
on the left and pot bunkers just to the right,
and the width of the fairway is probably yards. And
he put the ball between the outer bounds and that bunker.
(19:23):
Every day in the torment, nobody tried it. They all
have the ball well to the right and the banker,
uh and never even thought about doing that. Now, this man,
the shots that he played, and the way he swung
the club. If you, if anybody wants to see the
greatest swring ever, just get Hogan swinging at the British Open,
(19:46):
the Open, and and you'll realize just what an incredible
swing he had. And and and you have a story
about Sneed and and what our Sneed fells about. Um,
he was always quite I don't know where it is.
(20:06):
Word is jealous or envious or irritated. And I think
that the word was irritated because when Sneed and Hogan
went met in playoffs, Steed always beat him, except Hogan
beat him at Houston and in a match TV match.
But they said to Sneed, you know, Sam, that Ben
Hogan hits the ball so straight that he puts his
(20:27):
drive and the same divant he was yesterday, he said,
if only, if he's that straight, why doesn't he hit
to the right or the left of the divot? And
you know he irritated him quite a lot that But
Sam Snead was the greatest athlete they've ever played golf.
And those days they didn't have gyms that you're on
the tour where you could conveniently go to after your
(20:48):
round of golf. At sixty five, he would kicked the
door in the locker room. He would walk in and
touch the ground flat handed. He would uh, he'd be
able to take a ball out of the cup. He'd
take the ball out of a cup with his legs straight.
This man was a piece of rubber and he was strong.
And if it wasn't there again, if it wasn't for
(21:11):
the war, he would have definitely won the Grand Slam,
not not even a question about it. But it's it's
the it's actually if equals said, if equals said, but
it's a reality, isn't isn't that? Isn't that part of
a life? I mean, you've got gifts of your own. Um.
You know, at the end of the day, a lot
of yts um. And it is it is sad because
(21:33):
you know it would be nice if they weren't. In
years things that, regardless of you are in your life,
there will always been if the rules of life. If
I traveled from South Africa to America five six times
a year in those non jets, and I lived in America,
I would have definitely one more majors, not even a
(21:54):
question about it. But I wanted to be with my family,
and it was tough traveling. I mean, can you imagine
you're granny traveling with six children's taking forty hours and
traveling at two D thirty miles. So, I mean, there
are a lot of ifs about it. If I mean right,
that applies so, and you know, I think about it
(22:14):
all the time, all these ifs that occurred in in
my seventy years as a professional golfer. It's quite remarkable. Um,
I wanted to ask. The one thing I found quite
interesting about Hogan was how long it took him to
actually become a winner. You know, he took a long time,
(22:35):
and he struggled. He didn't do particularly well for the
first I don't know, probably decade of his career, and
then you know, once he started winning, he became more prolific.
Why you know, for someone who was so talented and
had worked so hard. What do you think, what do
you think was the reason that it took him so
long to win? And why did it start happening, and
(22:55):
why was he then so unbeatable when it did start happening. Well,
first of all, all he played golf with quite a
shut face um, which some players are doing. But you've
seen throughout time Arnold Palmer as a shut face golfer,
and that's why Arnold only one majors for six years,
(23:16):
whereas Nicknas won for twenty five years and I one
for twenty. Shut face golfers, your career is very very
limited for a length of time. A man like Dustin Johnson,
he's a phenomenal golfer, but he's a he's a there again,
he's completely different. He's very very strong in the hands,
(23:38):
and he is a very very long back string. He's tall,
so he has time to recover. But most shut place golfers,
their golf careers are pretty limited, as we've seen through
our time. Although today you can get away with it
more because of the metal head and I never have
read this in a magazine. The re is you could
(24:00):
get away with being shut faced today because of the
metal head and because the ball doesn't hook and fade
as much. So there's a reason. But you certainly couldn't
do that um with a wooden head. Now you will
be able to get away with it with this equipment
that you use today. That's a very significant thing that
we've just said right now. Hogan won his first major
(24:23):
thirty four, whereas now the most I don't care what
performance you like to give me in sport, there has
never been anything that compares to Tiger Woods. I won
the Grand Slab of twenty nine, and I said to
your granny, nobody will do that at twenty nine. Again,
Nicholas came along and wanted the twenty six. Tiger came
(24:47):
along and wanted a twenty four. There's nothing in sports
that compere that. So many players have never players that
have one major's had never even played in a major
at twenty four. I mean what he did do that
at twenty four years of age. Nothing nothing in sports.
And I've got great respect for all men and women
that have achieved greatness. Nothing compares to that. So with
(25:12):
regards to Hogan, your feeling is that the fact that
he was struggling with the hooks and the fact that
his club face was so shut at the top. Do
you think that him figuring out, you know from what
I've heard you say before, that his hands had to
be under the shaft um. Do you think that him
having an open club face and figuring that out allowed
(25:32):
him to play with the consistency that he later became
known for. Yes, But he also had extremely extremely fast hips.
You see, I listened to people on giving commentary on
golf saying their hips out raised their hands. That's not possible.
The faster your hips work, the faster your hands work.
(25:54):
Here such rubbish. It's just scary. So but anyway, Hogan
also had a very strong group, strong left handed group,
and his swing was too upright. And you never be
a very you there are exception. You look at Dustin Johnson.
He's an exception, and there are exceptions in the sport.
Trevino is an exception. Aiming way he left the way
(26:16):
he did and played. There are these exceptions. But you've
got to have a flattish swing, which helps you to
hit the inside of the ball when you're playing golf
instead of the outside. And you he what he did.
He realized that he flattened his swing. I spoke him
about that. He said to me, your swing can't be
too flat as long as your hands are under the shaft.
(26:38):
And that's what he said at Semino Golf Club and
nine in fifty seven. To me, I didn't understand what
he was talking about. It sounded like hieroglyphics. At seventy
I suddenly worked out what he was saying. But be
that as it may, and this is a game that
we will continue learning forever. Hogan was he was a
strong group. He was too upright, and he had too
(26:59):
much of a C. A C any swing that is
when you're back in your hip suffard and your back
is back. That's the C swing. And he changed that
to a flatter swing with a weaker grip, which you
had to do with the old shafts and would that
we played with I had a very weak group. Now
(27:20):
with this metal, I have a very strong lift hated group,
and I cannot hook the ball. Now if I did
that with with would, I would have hit such duck hooks.
You wouldn't have believed it. So it's horses for courses,
and the most prevalent thing in is not the prize money.
I think the biggest change in golf is being able
(27:43):
to travel rapidly. I think the the prize money obviously
is just unbelievable, but the equipment the Lord Mother is
Byron Nelson so appropriately said the Lord murmur a difference.
Can you see these guys holding puts from all over today,
(28:05):
and let me tell you something that the putters like
in our time. Bobby Locke from South Africa was definitely
the best pudd of that eveloved because he putted like
tiger on bad greens. Bob Charles doug Ford, Arnold Palmer,
Jack Nicholas, you can go down the line, Ben Crench
or phenomenal pudders. Impossible to be better, impossible to be better.
(28:29):
So when it does, it just that's the thing. The
human being is very resilient. The human being can adjust
to things. When I was traveling and traveling with no
jets all over the world and having to play against
all those players in their home country, that's what I
wanted to do. I'll give you an example. I played
with Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicholas and the World Cup
(28:51):
at St. Noombla Brotess in France, and the round was
pombed out on the Sunday. So the travel agent cab
and said, look, you're going to the Australian Open at
Royal Melbourne. I can now get you there the morning
that you're going to be teeing off three hours before
the torment starts. Arnold and Jackson, We're not going. I went.
(29:14):
I traveled to Australia from France, sixteen time change whatever
it is, arrived there, actually arrived three hours before and
never seen Royal Melbourne. Gave me another set of clubs
and another ball, and I hear people being fussy about
the ball they use. It just makes me laugh. And
I won the Australian Open by seven shots. It just
(29:39):
shows you how important the mind is. This is the thing.
As a young player starting today, the swing is not
the thing. Patting is the thing, and the mind is
the thing. And as I'm going to be repetitive and say,
in my seventy years of playing, I've seen plus minus
fifteen players with the mind that really counts that mine
(30:03):
equals it. It is it? What is it? Nobody can
describe it, no analysts, no scritters, no pro golfer, no wife,
no husband. It's a gift. That is bestowed upon you,
and I wish I could describe it. Tom Weiskoff, my
dear friend, who unfortunately is not that well at this moment.
(30:25):
We wished him the best. He was a better golfer
Jack Nicholas, but he and he admitted himself, he just
didn't have that little thing called it. He didn't have
the mind to go along with his greatness. And although
he played unbelievably well, how good would he have been
if you've taken Nicholas's head and put it on wiskaf Well,
(30:48):
that would have been there's the biggest for game. You
see the big ift for game. But that didn't happen.
I mean, if if you can bring out the most
remarkable stories with if, honestly, it's just a fascinating So
(31:13):
when did you meet Hogan Um? And my recollection was
is that you met in the ninety seven at Seminal
Um And so what can you explain a little bit
of the background of of that that actual meeting before
you end up playing with him in the use open Well,
I watched him practice that week. I sat behind him.
(31:35):
Actually he hipped down the hip down the ninth hole.
I watched him practice for hours He never even turned
around and acknowledged me. He never said anything. He didn't
know me, actually. And then a man running the torment,
Chris Dumphy, wonderful man. I'll remember at the club Several,
which is a beautiful golf course steeped in tradition. And
(32:01):
Christoph he said to me, who would you likee? He
liked me and I liked him, and he was very arrogant,
and he said to me, who do you want to
play with in the tournament? I said, Ben Hogan. He says,
you've got him, and those days they can do that
kind of thing. And I played with him and we
got to the ninth hole. He hadn't said a word
to me, just good morning, that's all. We've got the
(32:21):
ninth hole. There was a long hold up, and he
said to me, ah, congratulations on your torment. You won
last week in England. And I shot at what a
tourment in England and I shot seventy sixty six seventy
something like that and beat Bobby Jones's record, and I
(32:44):
said thanks, Mr Hogan. And I said, but the pros
they said I should go back home because my string
was too flat and I'd never make it and he
walked up to me and he put his face right
here and he says, you can't beat too flats as
long as your hands are of the shift, and then
he spoke about other things. I didn't understand what he
(33:04):
was saying. And isn't that there again? If only I
had understood, I wouldn't have been second in those seven majors.
I would have one at least three of those, but
it doesn't count. And I have a picture as we're
sitting here right now on my desk. There it is
Ben Hogan starting his backs ring and it's quite fascinating.
(33:30):
And this was at Oakland Hills in Michigan, where he
brought the course those days. That course was very tough
for the wooden clubs and the balls, and it was
known as one of the tough golf courses. On the
turn he said he shot sixty seven and one day
open and he said I eventually brought this course to
(33:50):
its knees, which was a fascinating saying. But now and
then I can remember I shot seventy three in our
lay with him, and the shot making he made in
that wound was just so remarkable. That had a sound
when he hit them all over that. It was like
(34:11):
taking a sheet and tearing it. Ah, what a golf swing?
What a mind? You see if you look at the
minds when I'm talking about that, it take Hogan, take Nicholas,
take Tiger, just those three, not dwelving into all the
other place. They were very different. Their minds were completely different.
(34:34):
So it was noticeable when they played, really noticeable. What
did they have. I can't tell you. I can't tell
you what it is, but it was very, very noticeable.
And now can you imagine as we're going now, if
I was a young man, I wouldn't be just worrying
about the swing as the thing. I'd worry about being
the best printer on the turk, and I'd work on
(34:57):
my mind. But I'd work on my mind with somebody
that played, that had been in the arena. That's a
big difference to talk about things you've read, but to
get and have knowledge from people that have actually been
in the arena. That's why I've valued so much what
Hogan said. I had a lot of people wanting to
tell me things that had never really been in the arena,
(35:18):
but they've read about it. But when Hogan said something,
I digested it. And I've got to tell you another
great story about Bobby Lock. I was talking about his putting.
Now Bobby Lock came across yet he just played Sam
Snead in South Africa. Twenty two matches Snead one too.
They tied to and locked one sixteen. So Lot Sneed
(35:40):
came back and said, all the guys, you better beat
this guy, Bobby Lock when he comes over here. He
puts so well, you've never seen anything like it. Well,
Bobby Lock came over and won seven out of eleven tournaments,
and then they barred him from playing. But I was
at Tamashan to the last Tamishan to the head. George
s May sponsored it. If you won the tourment in Chicago,
(36:00):
you've got fifty exhibitions at a thousand dollars a time,
which was like a million dollars at that time. And
Lloyd Mangram, who was another very tough guy, came very nice,
maybe very tough on the golf course, came up to Lock.
He said, a muffin face. He gave Lock the name
muffin face was locked out, a fat face. He said
(36:21):
that Sam Sneeed says, you can play. Would you like
to have me a bitter sweet Locks is very quiet,
cut said yes I would. He says, well, I'll have
my Cadillac against your cadillac. Lock said that's fine. And
so they played, and I think Locke beat him by
at least seventeen shots in the torn and Lloyd Magram
honored his word, came up and gave him the keys
(36:43):
to the car. And Locke used to call me captain.
He said, captain. I'm sure happy I didn't lose that
bit because I don't know the Cadillac, but the guy's
better those days. Was remarkable how they bet that's the
way they could make a little bit of money. You
look at Sam Snead and Ben Hogan, two the sixth
(37:06):
greatest players have ever lived. They didn't even make in
the entire careers. What players make for finishing tenth and
two tournaments. That's food for thought. Yeah. Um, so I
wanted to ask the the two stories that I still
want you to cover, you know, with with regards to Hogan,
(37:29):
the first was was you had you had been I
don't know who the person you were just having discussion with,
but you were arguing a point in the golf swing
and so you gave. You try to give Hogan a
court to clarify this point, and he was as friendly
as ever. Well, ah, I Hogan got the needle to
(37:52):
me because I didn't sign up with him. And I
can understand that, you know, because it was like I
suppose you can say it was a slap in the face,
but it wasn't. I had to. I had to. I
had to sign up for somebody else, even though I'm sorry.
I might have made a mistake, but I needed the money.
I couldn't live without the money being so far away.
So anyway, I know he I knew his best friend
(38:15):
and he was one of my best friends. And he said,
your phone Hogan at five to eight. He's only mean,
He's not very mean. So I was in Brazil and
I've phoned him at five to eight and n I said,
Mr Hogan, good evening. This is Gary Player here. He says, yep.
I said, I'd like to ask you a question, if
I may. I don't believe in giveaway programs. What is that? So?
(38:38):
I said, Mr Hogan, We're having a debate about the
backswing with a young American friend of mine here, and
I'd like to ask you to rectify what is correct?
Dead silence on the phone. Yeah, I said hello, Hello,
He says, I'm here, I'm here. He says, I want
to be real curt with you, fellow. I've never heard
the word could, and I think I did reasonably would
(39:02):
at English in school. He said, I want to be
real court with your fellow. He says, who do you
represent on the I said that the Dunklop company, says
called Mr Dunlop and put the phone down on me.
They were tough and those those they were quick, whereas
now licking Nicholas. On the other hand, I played Nicholas
(39:22):
in the final of the World Match Play Championship twice
in England, a long thirty six old golf course we've
played homes. I beat him six and four and five
and four. He came up to me, put his arm
around me and he said, well played. Nicholas was the
greatest gentleman I ever played. I also think he's the
best designer of golf courses today. And I was on
(39:46):
the tea and I was not hitting the ball very well,
and he said, why don't you just make you're right
hand a little weaker? And I went on to play
so well and actually beat the daylights out of him.
That's the kind of man at Nicholas was four years
they were not like that and those other days because
there was no prize money and it was a different era.
(40:08):
So there's another if. And then the one. The last
story I wanted to ask you about was your experience
with Hogan and at the Champions dinner Augusta. Well, that
that was an experience second to none. We were sitting
at the dinner and we were at the lower locker
(40:29):
room in those days, and I didn't have a tablecloth
and didn't have the ambiance of the room that we
have now, which is unbelievable. As you know, Augusta is
the best run golf tourment in the world, and things
are just perfect because they do have the tourment at
the same place every year, which is an advantage to
(40:49):
know what to cater for. But we were sitting at
a very hard table in the locker room and I
this was I was I think I was defending champion
that year, and this book came around and everybody was
signing it, and it came to me and I signed it,
and I was sitting next to Hogan, and I'll put
it in front of him, and I wish you could
have seen a look on his face. And I you know,
(41:11):
I don't like swearing, so I'm not going to tell
you exactly what he said. He wasn't exactly a swear word,
but it wasn't what I'd like to hear. And he
looked and he looked, and he suddenly stood up and
he took this book, slammed it on the table and
he said, who passed us? Damn book up here? And
Houghton Smith, who was a thorough gentleman and had won
(41:34):
the Masters the first time, sit up and said, Ben,
I've got a junior at my club, and I thought
it would be very encouraging for him to get the
signatures of the Masters. He said, Haughton, this is the
Master's club that I started. This is not a damn
autograph session club. Don't you ever send another book up
(41:56):
to be signed? And now you look what happens. Now
we go in the locker room, just a complete opposite.
Everybody starting at least fifty flags. Everybody's signing flags, flag flag,
which actually is a nice thing because it goes for
the betterment of golf. It goes to charities, and after all,
(42:18):
we so lucky in our lives, lucky to be at
playing golf in America, this great country, and to be
playing in a torment like Augusta, and it helps so
many a variety of charities, which is fantastic. So things
have changed, Things have changed, and changed is the price
(42:39):
of survival. I always listen to people saying, oh that
that politicians are flip flop or that guy's a flip flop. Well,
I would hope you would be a flip flop because
changes the price of survival. What I believed in as
a young man and ideas I had in my career
about various subjects of all change. That's for the betterment
(43:02):
of the human being. So it was fascinating. And the
dinner there that in, the dinner at the r n
A at the British Open are two of the greatest
evenings of your life. Well we can only take your
word for that. Yeah you Unfortunately you'll never be invited,
(43:26):
even with all your talent. Yeah, don't forget to subscribe
to the Player series on Apple, Spotify or wherever you
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