June 29, 2022 • 28 mins
Welcoming Bridget Todd to The Pod Club! Jo and OG podcaster Bridget go way back, like lawn chairs. In this week’s episode the two of them ask the question we've all been wondering: why every podcaster tries to impersonate Ira Glass when they first get started (themselves included). Bridget has been making groundbreaking podcasts since 2008. She describes her current show, There Are No Women On The Internet, as a “tech show if a tech show were hosted by Lizzo'' where each week she tells the story of technology through the voices of marginalized people. Bridget pushes boundaries and buttons in audio and on the Internet and she's not afraid to use her platform to push for social change in a deeply entertaining way.
Bridget’s Show:
There Are No Girls On The Internet
Shows Mentioned:
Our Nature
Flash Forward
Being Seen
Abortion Resources:
- https://abortion.cafe/ - this is a collection of abortion resources
- shoutyourabortion.com - this is a campaign to normalize abortion
- https://donations4abortion.com/ - donate to support abortion funds by state
- https://secure.actblue.com/donate/supportabortionfunds - donate to the national network of abortion funds (donations split between 80+ abortion funds)
- https://usow.org/repro/volunteer/ - this is a list of abortion clinics across the country that need volunteers
- https://dontbanequality.com/ - this is language for companies to use to stand against the ruling
- plancpills.org/ambassadors - here are early abortion access pills you can store in your cabinet
- https://prochoice.org/ - this is an abortion access hotline
- https://natalist.com/products/early-pregnancy-test-strips - buy early pregnancy test strips
- https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control - get info on types of birth control
- https://choice.crd.co/ - this is a collection of these above links and more. Managed by @starplanes - DM them on twitter to add more
- https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/abortion-policy-absence-roe - abortion policy by state as of June 1, 2022
- More in-depth version: https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey, pod Club listeners. Before we get to this week's episode,
I want to take a moment to address the United
States Supreme Court decision to overturn Roe versus Wade on June.
That decision stripped away the right to have a safe
and legal abortion. Restricting access to comprehensive reproductive care, including abortion,
threatens the health and independence of all Americans. This decision
(00:27):
could also very easily lead to the loss of other rights.
I know that we all feel a little helpless right now,
but I'm encouraging you to learn more about what you
can do to help right now at pod voices dot
Help speak up, take care, and please spread the word.
(00:54):
I hate looking at my own podcast because then I
see some of my nasty star reviews from people who
tell me that my voice sounds like I gargle with
rocks and smoke a pack of Marlborough's a day, And
I wish. I wish that I smoke to pack of
Marbles a day, but I don't. I was had a
review that said, um, it was a podcast that I
(01:16):
was doing with another woman, So of course some people
are when they hear two women on a podcast, all
they're gonna hear is like screeching, and the review just said,
Hans be packing hens be packing hands be Peckett's podcast
podcast podcast Hello, and welcome to the pod club Today
(01:44):
is a really big treat because we get to talk
to one of my favorite and best podcast pals, Bridget Todd.
She's the host of the absolutely incredible, amazing, Badass show
There Are No Girls on the Internet, and she's been
in the podcast game even longer than I have, which
makes us the Golden Girls. And as I've been working
(02:06):
on podcast after podcast and the audio industry has evolved
faster than I can keep up with, she has been
just a valuable presence and a good human being to
be able to call when I want to lose my
mind and say, what the hell am I doing? Why
am I making more podcasts? Does the world need more podcasts?
The world does need more podcast my friend, it needs
(02:27):
more good podcasts, and Bridget knows that because she's been
through it all. She knows what to pay attention to,
she knows what to care about, how to sort through
all of the bullshit, and most importantly, she knows how
to make a good goddamn podcast. This episode gets really
deep into making a podcast like getting on the mic
and the mind funk of listening to yourself and tailoring
(02:47):
yourself to an audience. But Bridget also has really good
show recommendations that I had never heard of before. And
I think you're gonna love this conversation and every single
show Bridget recommends high Bridget, I'm so excited to see
you today. I've been dying to have you on the
(03:08):
pod Club because I feel like you're gonna have some
really good podcast recommendations for our listeners. Oh, I hope
I can live up to that. I know I've just
set the bar really high. So I want to introduce
there are no Girls on the Internet to our audience
because I think it's completely different than any other technology
(03:29):
podcast that's out there. And you once said to me
that you wanted it to be a technology podcast, as
if a technology podcast we're hosted by Lizza. That's right.
That was sort of what I had in mind when
I was conceptualizing it, Like, how do we make a
technology podcast that feels fun and exciting and inclusive and
(03:51):
you know, not just a slog about white guys talking
about you know, crypto, Like I really wanted it to
feel like something that people would be excited about. And so, yeah, Lizzo,
if a tech podcast was hosted by Lizzo, that was
my kind of my north star for this project, right,
and you totally did it. You've also been making podcasts
since two thousand and eight, which is a long long
(04:12):
time to be making podcasts. What have you learned from
being one of the grand parents of the podcast movement.
I have learned that podcasting is a space that is
really evolving. When I first got involved in podcasting, I
just sort of found my way in as a podcast
super fan, like just a real lover of audio and podcasting,
(04:36):
and back then into you know, in the early two thousand's,
it just felt like a space that was made up
of weirdos and google balls and people who were just
like trying things out because they were passionate about it
and because they wanted to play with it. And so
what really attracted me to the space was that nobody
really knew what they were doing, right, Like, at that point,
(04:57):
people who were podcasting and only been doing it for
a few years, and so it wasn't like it had
this long institution of you know, a rule book or
something that you had to follow, and so it felt
very much like we were all kind of building the
plan as we flew it. And I think these days,
I've seen the industry change and really gotten more you know, professionalized,
like it's more traditional now and it's not necessarily a
(05:19):
bad thing, But I guess the thing I've learned is
that it is evolving. Like when I was first getting
into podcasts back in two thousand and eight, I would
have never in a million years thought that, you know,
it would be the kind of thing where there were
lots of ad budgets dedicated to podcasting, or that celebrities
would have podcasts like I would never have imagined where
the industry would go. So it's ever evolving, ever changing,
(05:41):
never evolving, ever changing, And you've navigated it since two
thousand eight, You've navigated it really well. There Are No
Girls on the Internet is one of my favorite podcasts,
and I have to ask you before we get into
your podcast recommendations, do you have a favorite episode of yours?
What a good question. I did an episode in my
first season that I always come back to with this woman,
(06:02):
Shapika Hudson, and her story is so fascinating to me
because I think it really crystallizes what I want the
show to be about. Shapika was just a regular black
feminist woman, you know, not any kind of like professional
social media person. She was a Twitter super user, and
she kind of uncovered this coordinated attempt to impersonate black
(06:23):
feminists on Twitter. Shafika Hudson freelancer, cat Lady, sometimes activists.
Shapika had been using Twitter regularly since almost its very beginning,
where he spent most of her time online connecting with
other black feminists. In twenty fourteen, while job searching, she
(06:43):
knows the hashtag that just did not make sense end
Father's Day. The people pushing the end fathers say hashtag
on Twitter appeared to be black feminists. They talked about
how we should have folished Father's Day because too many
black men date outside of their race, or because black
men don't support their children. Does that just seemed really
out there unless they had like ten different ads open.
(07:04):
Because I was also like doing a job search and
just going about my life and it someone tweet caught
my attention because it was so completely off the wall,
and I don't know who retweeted it or like how
it even arrived in my timeline, but it wasn't anything
(07:26):
that any black feminist anywhere would say. It was like,
what was it? Oh gosh, yeah in Father's day. I
wish these white women would stop stealing our men some
some something just completely off the wall. They had nothing
to do with anything, and the avatar was someone who
(07:49):
I didn't recognize. So flashboard to the election when you know,
set an inquiries confirmed that that same kind of meddling,
where specifically people would pretend to be black people on
social media, that would go on to, you know, be
(08:09):
a tactic that people who are interested in meddling in
our elections would use. It would be a tactic that
we saw in around the racial justice uprisings after the
murder of George Floyd. And if only people would listen
to Shapika when she uncovered this kind of unwittingly way
back when. And so I think that episode is one
of my favorites because I think it highlights something that
is really missing from the conversation around the Internet and technology,
(08:31):
which is that oftentimes it is women, it is people
of color, it is queer folks, it is marginalized people
who are really doing a lot of the work of
making our platforms safer and better. But they're not often
you know, listen to or supported or amplified, and sometimes
they are actively punished for doing that work. Yeah, I
totally agree. I hadn't heard that story before, and I
(08:53):
think it's just one example of the case where you're
really amplifying someone's voice and someone's story that is not
being told nearly enough in the mainstream media. So yesterday
you and I were talking about how we didn't really
have a podcast voice when we started making podcasts many
many years ago, and you told me that you thought
(09:14):
that you you sounded a little bit like black girl
Ira Glass. Ye, and that was the impression that I
was doing. And I think that I sound a little
like white girl if Ira Glass and Terry Gross had
a baby and that baby took a bunch of pixie sticks.
(09:36):
Because it takes a while to get your podcast voice.
We don't all come out of the womb sounding like
Terry and Ira, although everyone that guest hosts on This
American Life totally sounds like Ira. Oh absolutely, it's I
love Ira Glass. But it is like a cadence that
you'll do that I catch myself doing, or it will
be like, you know, the thing about podcasts is like
(09:57):
it's like a it's like a kind of halting way
speaking that I do think it kind of invites listeners
to ponder things a little bit more. I can tell
when he's putting on his This thing is insightful speech style,
so I definitely catch myself doing it. Still still still,
So I want to do something really weird. Are you
ready for something really weird? I am okay, hold on,
(10:19):
I have to go on my phone and on my
podcast and I have to look up my own podcast.
I'm so excited to see what this is going to be,
this little treat that I'm giving you, because I'm going
to play the very first episode of Committed and see
my podcast Voice, which is my first podcast. I haven't
listened to this yet, so maybe this will be Maybe
it'll be amazing, but I think it's probably not, So
let's listen in. I wrote this book called How to
(10:45):
Be Married. To research it, I traveled around the world
with my brand new husband. We interviewed hundreds of men
and women about exactly that. How do you be married?
How do you make this marriage thing work? I'm Joe Piazza.
This is committed. Okay, okay, it's not the worst Okay,
(11:07):
so I played you what I think is my sad
version of my first audio. It's not sad, it's just
it's done. It doesn't sound like how I think I
sounded in the real world. I want to hear yours.
I want to hear your black girl, Ira Glass. Oh
my god, it's I'm I'm gonna pull it up. So
a little bit of backstory for this my first ever
like real podcast job where I was on the mic
(11:30):
was I heard podcast called Stuff I've Never Told You,
where I became co host with with my good friend
Emily Aries. You were taking over for two other co hosts,
m Christen and Caroline. Shout out to them. They're fantastic.
They have a podcast called A Ladylike which is fantastic.
But I was, oh my gosh, like I was so
anxious about taking over someone else's podcast, especially a podcast
(11:54):
that had this like huge audience that was very committed
to their hosts. And when I go back listen to
this show, it's like I can hear myself turning myself down.
It was like I I it was like I showed
up on the microphone thinking that if I was too
much of myself it would be not accepted. And so
when I listen to this, it's like I can hear
(12:15):
myself being like like completely dialed down. So I'll play
a little bit of it. Play it. Yeah, I have
to hear it, and I know that I wouldn't. I'm
so honored to have you Bridget in this with me.
I could not imagine doing this with anyone else. You're
too kind, You're too kinds and Bridget, we go way back,
we go way back like lawn chairs. I can't even
(12:38):
listen to it. You guys not. You have to, you
have to you it's painful. I okay, So talk about
like doing my ivor glass boye. So you're hearing me
talk now when I play this, listen to how different
my voice sounds. I sound like I am so hyper
aware of how I am speaking and how I'm putting off. Um. Yeah,
I'm just your average activist, writer, intent creator gall about
(13:02):
town and like you, Bridget, I can't believe I use
the phrase gal about town. You did use the phrase
gall about town, but you also said we go way
back like lawn chair. What does that mean? I think
I was just like trying to be funny. I think
I I remember being so in my head, and then
also just the idea that the previous host were like
(13:23):
white women, and I really was hyper aware that their
audience was mostly white women, and so I was very
much like, I have to be the most palatable version
of myself so that I will be able to be
accepted by this, you know, audience of white ladies. When
I listen to this clip, I can tell that I'm
trying to be like funny but not too funny, self deprecating,
(13:44):
but also confident, like I can hear myself walking this
tightrope and it sounds painful to me. I think you
sound great, but I also think you said your voice
sounds smaller than it is today, and I hear you.
I that must have been a lot mentally to be like,
all right, I'm filling in for these hosts that not
(14:07):
only have an audience that is all white ladies, but
that have been have been successful at this, that people
are used to them, that they liked them, and now
I'm filling in their shoes. It must have been a
lot for you. It was, and you know, they're fantastic
and they're also very good at podcasting. And so this
was my first real job as a podcaster, filling in
(14:28):
for people who have been doing it for years, and
you know, there was definitely some bumps along the way.
Like most of the listenership was great, but I remember
getting some pretty harsh feedback, Like one time somebody sent
us an email that said the podcast is called stuff
mom ever told you, not stuff your black mom never
told you, And it was essentially you went on to
say that like I was focusing too much on like
(14:50):
black issues and that wasn't the point of the podcast.
And I think that I'm really lucky that I was
doing a podcast with someone who was a supportive friend
and allies, one who really was intentional about stepping up
and shutting down comments that were just really rooted in,
you know, inequity. I guess I'll say, um, so, I
(15:10):
was really lucky that I was making the podcast with
such a supportive group of people who helped me navigate that.
But it was really hard, and I remember really feeling
a lot of tension and a lot of anxiety and
a lot of fear that kept me from finding my voice.
And when I went on on my own and you know,
launched my own show, there are no girls on the
(15:31):
internet getting to hear my own voice controlled by nobody
but me was so thrilling. I feel like I sound
so clear and so confident. I sound like a version
of me that is so focused on what I'm doing,
because it feels and sounds so right to me. I
(16:11):
want to hear. I want to hear everything that you
think that I should be listening to right now, because
I feel like you're about to blow my ears the
hell up. So a podcast that I love is Our
Nature by Elissa Benjamin. She lives in I Believe, Brooklyn.
But Our Nature is about all of the ways that
people can connect with nature, specifically in urban environments. And
so I live in Washington, d C. Like on a
(16:33):
very busy street. I have a park nearby, but you know,
I live in the middle of the city, and I
love nature nothing. It makes me feel more grounded than
connecting to nature. But living in the city, like we
don't even really have any kind of framework for what
that looks like. And so Our Nature is about all
the different ways that people can connect with nature in
urban environments or just wherever they're at. I really got
(16:55):
into it at a time when I was incredibly stressed.
It was COVID was really at the think of it.
I mean, I don't know if I remember what was like.
I feel like it's easy to block it out, but
it was a day where I would wake up every
single morning with a tightness in my chest and I'm
not in my belly from all that was going on,
whether it was you know, racial justice protests, Trump saying
(17:15):
something awful. You know, I live in d C, so
it was like an incredibly tense time here in d C.
And our nature. Like when I tell you that that
podcast really got me through that time in my life,
I am not exaggerating one bit. Like it reminded me
that connecting with the things that ground you is important
and it's an intention and it's a practice, and I
can't recommend it enough thinking about you know, this idea
(17:41):
of like our bodies are made of the elements around us,
you know, they're also within us. And one of the
ways that I think people can have a really profound
connection to the earth and to the natural world just
through breath. And as someone who holds their breath all
the time, and I bet if people listening start to
(18:02):
pay some attention to it, you might discover you're also
holding your breath. It's you know that kind of like
tension and sort of that constriction in the chest and
not breathing as deeply. So do you have any tips
for someone like myself or others who are looking to
(18:22):
have a closer relationship to their breath. More awareness. I'm
always thinking about breathing deep into my belly, So start
to be aware without judging, and incorporate into that awareness. Okay,
oh yeah, I'm noticing shallow breaths. Okay, let me breathe
into my belly. Hmm. I also noticed belly breaths have
(18:47):
gotten easier and easier and easier. That chest breathing that
you were mentioning is where most people go to I
noticed this a lot when I teach take a deep
breath into your belly, and people breathe up into their
chest and then also put your hand on your belly
and breathe into your hand. All right, well, I'm gonna
(19:10):
hit you with another one. Bring it so. Unfortunately, this
is a podcast that is no longer making episodes, but
I can't recommend it enough. Flash Forward it is a
podcast about the future, and when we talk about the future,
it's often very negative, right I understand why people feel
that way, that like technology is going to create this
like terrible future that none of us should look forward to.
(19:32):
But Rose's podcast asks, well, what questions do we need
to ask to be prepared for the future and why
does the future have to be so negative? So it's
a tech podcast, but it's also a podcast about futurism.
It's also a podcast about the possibility of technology. She
has an episode where it still blows my mind every
time I think about it. It is an interview with
her and an AI chat bought version of herself, and
(19:57):
so she has outfitted an AI speaking tool based on
her podcasts and writing, and she is interviewing this AI
version of herself. When I say this ship blew my mind.
I was like, oh my god, who who does this? Like?
How did you come up with this idea? It spoke
to me this episode we're starting in the year now,
(20:20):
because we're actually already in the future, and I'm not
actually Rose, I'm a vocaloid copy she made of herself. Hi, there,
real Rose here. How nice of you to join us?
Did you get the show started? I did? Indeed? How
much do you get paid for this? It seems easy?
Not enough? Trust me. Do you want to do the
next bit too? Okay, sure. So today we're talking about
(20:42):
the idea of digital clones, avatars that replicate someone's voice
an identity to help them in a variety of ways.
Real Rose can ask me to make annoying phone calls
to have arisen Verizon. It's pronounced Verizon, don't interrupt. Real
Rose can ask me to make annoying phone calls to
have risen or place orders. And in the future, my
(21:02):
body as it exists as a three D scanned replica
of hers, where doctors can test out drugs and see
how they might work before actually asking real biological rows
to take them. And of course we can also have
a bit of fun. Does that cover it? Yeah, I'd
say so. I'll take it from here. Okay, have a
good episode. Thanks. I'm scrolling through flash forward episodes right now,
(21:27):
and these are insane. The oh my gosh, she did
three episodes on robots. One of them is would you
date a Robot? Yeah? I mean, I don't get her mind.
I don't get how she comes up with this stuff.
We're all living in roses, living in like she is
just like on another level with with how her mind works. God,
(21:48):
this podcast is awesome. I'm going to listen to a
bunch of these tonight. This is great. They're so good.
Your recommendations are so good. Do you have more? Because
we can keep going. Oh, I think this is a
topic that I love. There's a podcast called Being Seen.
It's all about sort of what it feels like when
you feel seen, right, And so my podcast is a
podcast where I am a black queer woman and I
(22:10):
make content for other people who are traditionally marginalized. But
I feel like sometimes when podcasts are meant to be
about explorations of black identity, that can be very like
heavy or always sort of like rooted in trauma. And
so I love that Being Seen as a podcast that
it comes from a framework of grounding it in positivity.
So what does it mean to be seen? And everybody
(22:31):
wants to be seen. Everybody wants to feel like they
show up as a full person who everybody can see
and understand on some level. So I think Being Seen
as a podcast that I feel like, I think it
comes at the issue at a starting place in you know,
something that's powerful and liberatory and not just like traumatic. Oh.
I really love that. I really do, because When there's
(22:53):
podcasts about subjects that we're supposed to categorize as difficult
or hard subject they can often be difficult or hard
podcast to listen to instead of beautiful storytelling podcasts that
make you feel something and make you feel good even right, Absolutely,
(23:14):
I think that you just put it so well, Like,
I feel that, particularly for women, people of color, fear folks,
we deserve beautiful storytelling. I guess when I first got
into podcasting, I really felt like it seemed that beautiful
storytelling was reserved for this American life or you know,
(23:34):
you're sort of like legacy shows, and we also deserve beautiful, thoughtful,
authentic storytelling that highlights and packages and tells our stories
with the beauty that they deserve, right, And so I
love podcasts that I feel that do that for us
because I think it's not a given that we're going
to get that, Like, I think we have to demand
that and make those shows ourselves and make that be
(23:57):
the standard. I've never seen two black people in love
like that that were beautiful like that, that we're brown
like that. I actually think that this is one of
the most important pieces that I've ever read that helps
to explain um what it's like to be a black
(24:19):
man in America. I loved my father, I love my partner,
I love myself, And this is what it is to
love radically black men. Loving black man is, as the
deceased black gay writer Joseph Began opined in the nineteen eighties,
a revolutionary act because every moment a black man is
(24:43):
transgressive enough to love what he has been socialized to hate,
he commits an act of insurgency. That is a revolution
that I bring inside myself and with all the people
I call home. That radical love can be romantic, but
it can still be the love of brothers friends when
(25:03):
your emotions have been weaponized against you, with society has
punished you for all the ways you dare show that
you feel. Caring for another black man is a rebellion.
It is an act of resistance, and it is a
revolution that needs a fight of all black men in
order to be one. I think the audio really can
(25:32):
be this powerful way of writing historical and cultural wrongs
that have gone on for too long. I agree, I agree,
and I think that you know, mostly we're seeing women
do that, but there are some men. There are some
men that are that are out there helping right these
historical wrongs. I completely agree with you that it's so
nicely into the work that I do my own podcast.
(25:53):
But why do you think that is? What do you
think is going on there? I think it has to
do with the fact that women as a group, and
also queer people and minorities, we are the ones who
have been the victims of these cultural wrongs, and now
that there is a space to add our voices and
(26:13):
our storytelling, that we feel it's incumbent on us to
try to change the record a little bit. And for
the most part, and this is a journalization, but I
think it's true white men personally have nothing to gain
from correcting the record white straight sys men. And I
also feel that like nobody understands culture better than people
(26:37):
who are intentionally excluded from that culture totally because we've
been watching it, right, we're watching it, not living exactly.
Like that is why we make such good, honest, authentic
writers of cultural wrongs. And really we do the work
of righting ourselves back into these places where we have
been excluded. And I think that's that's always been our
(26:58):
work as marginalized people to percent and I think that
you do that work so incredibly well on there are
No Girls on the Internet. You're telling the story of
tech through marginalized voices, which is something that the podcasting
world needed and still needs. And I hope that you.
I hope you are one of the people that keeps
making episodes forever. That's it. That's all we've got for
(27:26):
today's pod Club. Bridget just inspires me. She makes me
feel like I could climb a mountain, or run a marathon,
or make another six dozen podcasts. She does. She has
a national treasure. And to keep you inspired, here's a
reminder of the podcast that she recommended, Our Nature flash
(27:47):
Forward and Being Seen. And of course, of course, of course,
go listen to Bridget show there are No Girls on
the Internet. And if you are charmed by mine and
Bridget's early radio voice is go listen to some vintage
episodes of stuff Mom never told you and committed you
won't regret that. I regret it, but you won't. Thanks
(28:09):
for listening, be good to see you next week. The
pod club is hosted by me Joe Pianza. Our executive
producers are Me Again and Emily marinof our producers are
Mary Do and Darby Masters. Our associate producer is Lauren Philip.
(28:29):
Our theme and additional music was composed by Aaron Kaufman.
Aaron Kaufman is also our consulting producer and special thanks
to Nikki e Tor He was just a wonderful human
being who I like to think at the end of episodes.
Hey, pod Club listeners. Before we get to this week's episode,
I want to take a moment to address the United
States Supreme Court decision to overturn Roe versus Wade on June.
That decision stripped away the right to have a safe
and legal abortion. Restricting access to comprehensive reproductive care, including abortion,
threatens the health and independence of all Americans. This decision
(00:27):
could also very easily lead to the loss of other rights.
I know that we all feel a little helpless right now,
but I'm encouraging you to learn more about what you
can do to help right now at pod voices dot
Help speak up, take care, and please spread the word.
(00:54):
I hate looking at my own podcast because then I
see some of my nasty star reviews from people who
tell me that my voice sounds like I gargle with
rocks and smoke a pack of Marlborough's a day, And
I wish. I wish that I smoke to pack of
Marbles a day, but I don't. I was had a
review that said, um, it was a podcast that I
(01:16):
was doing with another woman, So of course some people
are when they hear two women on a podcast, all
they're gonna hear is like screeching, and the review just said,
Hans be packing hens be packing hands be Peckett's podcast
podcast podcast Hello, and welcome to the pod club Today
(01:44):
is a really big treat because we get to talk
to one of my favorite and best podcast pals, Bridget Todd.
She's the host of the absolutely incredible, amazing, Badass show
There Are No Girls on the Internet, and she's been
in the podcast game even longer than I have, which
makes us the Golden Girls. And as I've been working
(02:06):
on podcast after podcast and the audio industry has evolved
faster than I can keep up with, she has been
just a valuable presence and a good human being to
be able to call when I want to lose my
mind and say, what the hell am I doing? Why
am I making more podcasts? Does the world need more podcasts?
The world does need more podcast my friend, it needs
(02:27):
more good podcasts, and Bridget knows that because she's been
through it all. She knows what to pay attention to,
she knows what to care about, how to sort through
all of the bullshit, and most importantly, she knows how
to make a good goddamn podcast. This episode gets really
deep into making a podcast like getting on the mic
and the mind funk of listening to yourself and tailoring
(02:47):
yourself to an audience. But Bridget also has really good
show recommendations that I had never heard of before. And
I think you're gonna love this conversation and every single
show Bridget recommends high Bridget, I'm so excited to see
you today. I've been dying to have you on the
(03:08):
pod Club because I feel like you're gonna have some
really good podcast recommendations for our listeners. Oh, I hope
I can live up to that. I know I've just
set the bar really high. So I want to introduce
there are no Girls on the Internet to our audience
because I think it's completely different than any other technology
(03:29):
podcast that's out there. And you once said to me
that you wanted it to be a technology podcast, as
if a technology podcast we're hosted by Lizza. That's right.
That was sort of what I had in mind when
I was conceptualizing it, Like, how do we make a
technology podcast that feels fun and exciting and inclusive and
(03:51):
you know, not just a slog about white guys talking
about you know, crypto, Like I really wanted it to
feel like something that people would be excited about. And so, yeah, Lizzo,
if a tech podcast was hosted by Lizzo, that was
my kind of my north star for this project, right,
and you totally did it. You've also been making podcasts
since two thousand and eight, which is a long long
(04:12):
time to be making podcasts. What have you learned from
being one of the grand parents of the podcast movement.
I have learned that podcasting is a space that is
really evolving. When I first got involved in podcasting, I
just sort of found my way in as a podcast
super fan, like just a real lover of audio and podcasting,
(04:36):
and back then into you know, in the early two thousand's,
it just felt like a space that was made up
of weirdos and google balls and people who were just
like trying things out because they were passionate about it
and because they wanted to play with it. And so
what really attracted me to the space was that nobody
really knew what they were doing, right, Like, at that point,
(04:57):
people who were podcasting and only been doing it for
a few years, and so it wasn't like it had
this long institution of you know, a rule book or
something that you had to follow, and so it felt
very much like we were all kind of building the
plan as we flew it. And I think these days,
I've seen the industry change and really gotten more you know, professionalized,
like it's more traditional now and it's not necessarily a
(05:19):
bad thing, But I guess the thing I've learned is
that it is evolving. Like when I was first getting
into podcasts back in two thousand and eight, I would
have never in a million years thought that, you know,
it would be the kind of thing where there were
lots of ad budgets dedicated to podcasting, or that celebrities
would have podcasts like I would never have imagined where
the industry would go. So it's ever evolving, ever changing,
(05:41):
never evolving, ever changing, And you've navigated it since two
thousand eight, You've navigated it really well. There Are No
Girls on the Internet is one of my favorite podcasts,
and I have to ask you before we get into
your podcast recommendations, do you have a favorite episode of yours?
What a good question. I did an episode in my
first season that I always come back to with this woman,
(06:02):
Shapika Hudson, and her story is so fascinating to me
because I think it really crystallizes what I want the
show to be about. Shapika was just a regular black
feminist woman, you know, not any kind of like professional
social media person. She was a Twitter super user, and
she kind of uncovered this coordinated attempt to impersonate black
(06:23):
feminists on Twitter. Shafika Hudson freelancer, cat Lady, sometimes activists.
Shapika had been using Twitter regularly since almost its very beginning,
where he spent most of her time online connecting with
other black feminists. In twenty fourteen, while job searching, she
(06:43):
knows the hashtag that just did not make sense end
Father's Day. The people pushing the end fathers say hashtag
on Twitter appeared to be black feminists. They talked about
how we should have folished Father's Day because too many
black men date outside of their race, or because black
men don't support their children. Does that just seemed really
out there unless they had like ten different ads open.
(07:04):
Because I was also like doing a job search and
just going about my life and it someone tweet caught
my attention because it was so completely off the wall,
and I don't know who retweeted it or like how
it even arrived in my timeline, but it wasn't anything
(07:26):
that any black feminist anywhere would say. It was like,
what was it? Oh gosh, yeah in Father's day. I
wish these white women would stop stealing our men some
some something just completely off the wall. They had nothing
to do with anything, and the avatar was someone who
(07:49):
I didn't recognize. So flashboard to the election when you know,
set an inquiries confirmed that that same kind of meddling,
where specifically people would pretend to be black people on
social media, that would go on to, you know, be
(08:09):
a tactic that people who are interested in meddling in
our elections would use. It would be a tactic that
we saw in around the racial justice uprisings after the
murder of George Floyd. And if only people would listen
to Shapika when she uncovered this kind of unwittingly way
back when. And so I think that episode is one
of my favorites because I think it highlights something that
is really missing from the conversation around the Internet and technology,
(08:31):
which is that oftentimes it is women, it is people
of color, it is queer folks, it is marginalized people
who are really doing a lot of the work of
making our platforms safer and better. But they're not often
you know, listen to or supported or amplified, and sometimes
they are actively punished for doing that work. Yeah, I
totally agree. I hadn't heard that story before, and I
(08:53):
think it's just one example of the case where you're
really amplifying someone's voice and someone's story that is not
being told nearly enough in the mainstream media. So yesterday
you and I were talking about how we didn't really
have a podcast voice when we started making podcasts many
many years ago, and you told me that you thought
(09:14):
that you you sounded a little bit like black girl
Ira Glass. Ye, and that was the impression that I
was doing. And I think that I sound a little
like white girl if Ira Glass and Terry Gross had
a baby and that baby took a bunch of pixie sticks.
(09:36):
Because it takes a while to get your podcast voice.
We don't all come out of the womb sounding like
Terry and Ira, although everyone that guest hosts on This
American Life totally sounds like Ira. Oh absolutely, it's I
love Ira Glass. But it is like a cadence that
you'll do that I catch myself doing, or it will
be like, you know, the thing about podcasts is like
(09:57):
it's like a it's like a kind of halting way
speaking that I do think it kind of invites listeners
to ponder things a little bit more. I can tell
when he's putting on his This thing is insightful speech style,
so I definitely catch myself doing it. Still still still,
So I want to do something really weird. Are you
ready for something really weird? I am okay, hold on,
(10:19):
I have to go on my phone and on my
podcast and I have to look up my own podcast.
I'm so excited to see what this is going to be,
this little treat that I'm giving you, because I'm going
to play the very first episode of Committed and see
my podcast Voice, which is my first podcast. I haven't
listened to this yet, so maybe this will be Maybe
it'll be amazing, but I think it's probably not, So
let's listen in. I wrote this book called How to
(10:45):
Be Married. To research it, I traveled around the world
with my brand new husband. We interviewed hundreds of men
and women about exactly that. How do you be married?
How do you make this marriage thing work? I'm Joe Piazza.
This is committed. Okay, okay, it's not the worst Okay,
(11:07):
so I played you what I think is my sad
version of my first audio. It's not sad, it's just
it's done. It doesn't sound like how I think I
sounded in the real world. I want to hear yours.
I want to hear your black girl, Ira Glass. Oh
my god, it's I'm I'm gonna pull it up. So
a little bit of backstory for this my first ever
like real podcast job where I was on the mic
(11:30):
was I heard podcast called Stuff I've Never Told You,
where I became co host with with my good friend
Emily Aries. You were taking over for two other co hosts,
m Christen and Caroline. Shout out to them. They're fantastic.
They have a podcast called A Ladylike which is fantastic.
But I was, oh my gosh, like I was so
anxious about taking over someone else's podcast, especially a podcast
(11:54):
that had this like huge audience that was very committed
to their hosts. And when I go back listen to
this show, it's like I can hear myself turning myself down.
It was like I I it was like I showed
up on the microphone thinking that if I was too
much of myself it would be not accepted. And so
when I listen to this, it's like I can hear
(12:15):
myself being like like completely dialed down. So I'll play
a little bit of it. Play it. Yeah, I have
to hear it, and I know that I wouldn't. I'm
so honored to have you Bridget in this with me.
I could not imagine doing this with anyone else. You're
too kind, You're too kinds and Bridget, we go way back,
we go way back like lawn chairs. I can't even
(12:38):
listen to it. You guys not. You have to, you
have to you it's painful. I okay, So talk about
like doing my ivor glass boye. So you're hearing me
talk now when I play this, listen to how different
my voice sounds. I sound like I am so hyper
aware of how I am speaking and how I'm putting off. Um. Yeah,
I'm just your average activist, writer, intent creator gall about
(13:02):
town and like you, Bridget, I can't believe I use
the phrase gal about town. You did use the phrase
gall about town, but you also said we go way
back like lawn chair. What does that mean? I think
I was just like trying to be funny. I think
I I remember being so in my head, and then
also just the idea that the previous host were like
(13:23):
white women, and I really was hyper aware that their
audience was mostly white women, and so I was very
much like, I have to be the most palatable version
of myself so that I will be able to be
accepted by this, you know, audience of white ladies. When
I listen to this clip, I can tell that I'm
trying to be like funny but not too funny, self deprecating,
(13:44):
but also confident, like I can hear myself walking this
tightrope and it sounds painful to me. I think you
sound great, but I also think you said your voice
sounds smaller than it is today, and I hear you.
I that must have been a lot mentally to be like,
all right, I'm filling in for these hosts that not
(14:07):
only have an audience that is all white ladies, but
that have been have been successful at this, that people
are used to them, that they liked them, and now
I'm filling in their shoes. It must have been a
lot for you. It was, and you know, they're fantastic
and they're also very good at podcasting. And so this
was my first real job as a podcaster, filling in
(14:28):
for people who have been doing it for years, and
you know, there was definitely some bumps along the way.
Like most of the listenership was great, but I remember
getting some pretty harsh feedback, Like one time somebody sent
us an email that said the podcast is called stuff
mom ever told you, not stuff your black mom never
told you, And it was essentially you went on to
say that like I was focusing too much on like
(14:50):
black issues and that wasn't the point of the podcast.
And I think that I'm really lucky that I was
doing a podcast with someone who was a supportive friend
and allies, one who really was intentional about stepping up
and shutting down comments that were just really rooted in,
you know, inequity. I guess I'll say, um, so, I
(15:10):
was really lucky that I was making the podcast with
such a supportive group of people who helped me navigate that.
But it was really hard, and I remember really feeling
a lot of tension and a lot of anxiety and
a lot of fear that kept me from finding my voice.
And when I went on on my own and you know,
launched my own show, there are no girls on the
(15:31):
internet getting to hear my own voice controlled by nobody
but me was so thrilling. I feel like I sound
so clear and so confident. I sound like a version
of me that is so focused on what I'm doing,
because it feels and sounds so right to me. I
(16:11):
want to hear. I want to hear everything that you
think that I should be listening to right now, because
I feel like you're about to blow my ears the
hell up. So a podcast that I love is Our
Nature by Elissa Benjamin. She lives in I Believe, Brooklyn.
But Our Nature is about all of the ways that
people can connect with nature, specifically in urban environments. And
so I live in Washington, d C. Like on a
(16:33):
very busy street. I have a park nearby, but you know,
I live in the middle of the city, and I
love nature nothing. It makes me feel more grounded than
connecting to nature. But living in the city, like we
don't even really have any kind of framework for what
that looks like. And so Our Nature is about all
the different ways that people can connect with nature in
urban environments or just wherever they're at. I really got
(16:55):
into it at a time when I was incredibly stressed.
It was COVID was really at the think of it.
I mean, I don't know if I remember what was like.
I feel like it's easy to block it out, but
it was a day where I would wake up every
single morning with a tightness in my chest and I'm
not in my belly from all that was going on,
whether it was you know, racial justice protests, Trump saying
(17:15):
something awful. You know, I live in d C, so
it was like an incredibly tense time here in d C.
And our nature. Like when I tell you that that
podcast really got me through that time in my life,
I am not exaggerating one bit. Like it reminded me
that connecting with the things that ground you is important
and it's an intention and it's a practice, and I
can't recommend it enough thinking about you know, this idea
(17:41):
of like our bodies are made of the elements around us,
you know, they're also within us. And one of the
ways that I think people can have a really profound
connection to the earth and to the natural world just
through breath. And as someone who holds their breath all
the time, and I bet if people listening start to
(18:02):
pay some attention to it, you might discover you're also
holding your breath. It's you know that kind of like
tension and sort of that constriction in the chest and
not breathing as deeply. So do you have any tips
for someone like myself or others who are looking to
(18:22):
have a closer relationship to their breath. More awareness. I'm
always thinking about breathing deep into my belly, So start
to be aware without judging, and incorporate into that awareness. Okay,
oh yeah, I'm noticing shallow breaths. Okay, let me breathe
into my belly. Hmm. I also noticed belly breaths have
(18:47):
gotten easier and easier and easier. That chest breathing that
you were mentioning is where most people go to I
noticed this a lot when I teach take a deep
breath into your belly, and people breathe up into their
chest and then also put your hand on your belly
and breathe into your hand. All right, well, I'm gonna
(19:10):
hit you with another one. Bring it so. Unfortunately, this
is a podcast that is no longer making episodes, but
I can't recommend it enough. Flash Forward it is a
podcast about the future, and when we talk about the future,
it's often very negative, right I understand why people feel
that way, that like technology is going to create this
like terrible future that none of us should look forward to.
(19:32):
But Rose's podcast asks, well, what questions do we need
to ask to be prepared for the future and why
does the future have to be so negative? So it's
a tech podcast, but it's also a podcast about futurism.
It's also a podcast about the possibility of technology. She
has an episode where it still blows my mind every
time I think about it. It is an interview with
her and an AI chat bought version of herself, and
(19:57):
so she has outfitted an AI speaking tool based on
her podcasts and writing, and she is interviewing this AI
version of herself. When I say this ship blew my mind.
I was like, oh my god, who who does this? Like?
How did you come up with this idea? It spoke
to me this episode we're starting in the year now,
(20:20):
because we're actually already in the future, and I'm not
actually Rose, I'm a vocaloid copy she made of herself. Hi, there,
real Rose here. How nice of you to join us?
Did you get the show started? I did? Indeed? How
much do you get paid for this? It seems easy?
Not enough? Trust me. Do you want to do the
next bit too? Okay, sure. So today we're talking about
(20:42):
the idea of digital clones, avatars that replicate someone's voice
an identity to help them in a variety of ways.
Real Rose can ask me to make annoying phone calls
to have arisen Verizon. It's pronounced Verizon, don't interrupt. Real
Rose can ask me to make annoying phone calls to
have risen or place orders. And in the future, my
(21:02):
body as it exists as a three D scanned replica
of hers, where doctors can test out drugs and see
how they might work before actually asking real biological rows
to take them. And of course we can also have
a bit of fun. Does that cover it? Yeah, I'd
say so. I'll take it from here. Okay, have a
good episode. Thanks. I'm scrolling through flash forward episodes right now,
(21:27):
and these are insane. The oh my gosh, she did
three episodes on robots. One of them is would you
date a Robot? Yeah? I mean, I don't get her mind.
I don't get how she comes up with this stuff.
We're all living in roses, living in like she is
just like on another level with with how her mind works. God,
(21:48):
this podcast is awesome. I'm going to listen to a
bunch of these tonight. This is great. They're so good.
Your recommendations are so good. Do you have more? Because
we can keep going. Oh, I think this is a
topic that I love. There's a podcast called Being Seen.
It's all about sort of what it feels like when
you feel seen, right, And so my podcast is a
podcast where I am a black queer woman and I
(22:10):
make content for other people who are traditionally marginalized. But
I feel like sometimes when podcasts are meant to be
about explorations of black identity, that can be very like
heavy or always sort of like rooted in trauma. And
so I love that Being Seen as a podcast that
it comes from a framework of grounding it in positivity.
So what does it mean to be seen? And everybody
(22:31):
wants to be seen. Everybody wants to feel like they
show up as a full person who everybody can see
and understand on some level. So I think Being Seen
as a podcast that I feel like, I think it
comes at the issue at a starting place in you know,
something that's powerful and liberatory and not just like traumatic. Oh.
I really love that. I really do, because When there's
(22:53):
podcasts about subjects that we're supposed to categorize as difficult
or hard subject they can often be difficult or hard
podcast to listen to instead of beautiful storytelling podcasts that
make you feel something and make you feel good even right, Absolutely,
(23:14):
I think that you just put it so well, Like,
I feel that, particularly for women, people of color, fear folks,
we deserve beautiful storytelling. I guess when I first got
into podcasting, I really felt like it seemed that beautiful
storytelling was reserved for this American life or you know,
(23:34):
you're sort of like legacy shows, and we also deserve beautiful, thoughtful,
authentic storytelling that highlights and packages and tells our stories
with the beauty that they deserve, right, And so I
love podcasts that I feel that do that for us
because I think it's not a given that we're going
to get that, Like, I think we have to demand
that and make those shows ourselves and make that be
(23:57):
the standard. I've never seen two black people in love
like that that were beautiful like that, that we're brown
like that. I actually think that this is one of
the most important pieces that I've ever read that helps
to explain um what it's like to be a black
(24:19):
man in America. I loved my father, I love my partner,
I love myself, And this is what it is to
love radically black men. Loving black man is, as the
deceased black gay writer Joseph Began opined in the nineteen eighties,
a revolutionary act because every moment a black man is
(24:43):
transgressive enough to love what he has been socialized to hate,
he commits an act of insurgency. That is a revolution
that I bring inside myself and with all the people
I call home. That radical love can be romantic, but
it can still be the love of brothers friends when
(25:03):
your emotions have been weaponized against you, with society has
punished you for all the ways you dare show that
you feel. Caring for another black man is a rebellion.
It is an act of resistance, and it is a
revolution that needs a fight of all black men in
order to be one. I think the audio really can
(25:32):
be this powerful way of writing historical and cultural wrongs
that have gone on for too long. I agree, I agree,
and I think that you know, mostly we're seeing women
do that, but there are some men. There are some
men that are that are out there helping right these
historical wrongs. I completely agree with you that it's so
nicely into the work that I do my own podcast.
(25:53):
But why do you think that is? What do you
think is going on there? I think it has to
do with the fact that women as a group, and
also queer people and minorities, we are the ones who
have been the victims of these cultural wrongs, and now
that there is a space to add our voices and
(26:13):
our storytelling, that we feel it's incumbent on us to
try to change the record a little bit. And for
the most part, and this is a journalization, but I
think it's true white men personally have nothing to gain
from correcting the record white straight sys men. And I
also feel that like nobody understands culture better than people
(26:37):
who are intentionally excluded from that culture totally because we've
been watching it, right, we're watching it, not living exactly.
Like that is why we make such good, honest, authentic
writers of cultural wrongs. And really we do the work
of righting ourselves back into these places where we have
been excluded. And I think that's that's always been our
(26:58):
work as marginalized people to percent and I think that
you do that work so incredibly well on there are
No Girls on the Internet. You're telling the story of
tech through marginalized voices, which is something that the podcasting
world needed and still needs. And I hope that you.
I hope you are one of the people that keeps
making episodes forever. That's it. That's all we've got for
(27:26):
today's pod Club. Bridget just inspires me. She makes me
feel like I could climb a mountain, or run a marathon,
or make another six dozen podcasts. She does. She has
a national treasure. And to keep you inspired, here's a
reminder of the podcast that she recommended, Our Nature flash
(27:47):
Forward and Being Seen. And of course, of course, of course,
go listen to Bridget show there are No Girls on
the Internet. And if you are charmed by mine and
Bridget's early radio voice is go listen to some vintage
episodes of stuff Mom never told you and committed you
won't regret that. I regret it, but you won't. Thanks
(28:09):
for listening, be good to see you next week. The
pod club is hosted by me Joe Pianza. Our executive
producers are Me Again and Emily marinof our producers are
Mary Do and Darby Masters. Our associate producer is Lauren Philip.
(28:29):
Our theme and additional music was composed by Aaron Kaufman.
Aaron Kaufman is also our consulting producer and special thanks
to Nikki e Tor He was just a wonderful human
being who I like to think at the end of episodes.
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