A Conversation With Denzil Smith

This episode features the versatile and talented Denzil Smith, a theatre stalwart and screen actor who has featured in Paap, Lunchbox, Christopher Nolan’s Tenet, Delhi Crime and most recently, Ba***ds of Bollywood, among many others.

In this bare and heartfelt conversation, Pooja and Denzil talk openly about addiction, recovery, processing pain, navigating sobriety and reminiscing about the Bandra that was and how it shaped them. 

Along the way, Denzil talks about Bombay’s vibrant jazz scene, and the unsung heroes behind some of India’s biggest musical hits, including a man named Anthony Gonsalves, immortalised in the Amar Akbar Anthony song.

But beyond all this, Denzil talks about dealing with the loss of a parent late in life, about the masterclass in acting that he received from the legendary Jagdeep, and why the Hindi film industry’s liberal character might now be changing.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
How many actors can truly say they've lived a thousand
lives on stage and screen. From playing with equal ilan
both Jawahar lan Nehru and Mohammad Ali Jinna, from being
the face of Colonel Sanders to lending his voice to
icons like Batman and Captain Planet, and being directed by
Annis Basmi ab basmastan Arian Khan and even Christopher Nolan

(00:29):
along the way. That's a career most people can only
dream off. But beyond all of that, the person I'm
about to introduce is much much more to me, my
dear friend, and someone who has, like me, walked on
the difficult but gratifying journey of sobriety. It's an honor

(00:51):
to welcome you to the show. Denzil Smith, my honor,
my honor. Wow, that's crazy body of work. I must say.
How have you put all of this in and yet
lived furiously and not only on the edge, but jumped

(01:13):
off the edge pretty often in your life? And you're
sitting in front of me sober now? How many years?

Speaker 2 (01:20):
Fourteen?

Speaker 1 (01:22):
Wow?

Speaker 2 (01:24):
But how did I manage to do all this body
of work? I have no idea myself, I have really
no idea. But what I am really grateful about is
being alive and having a few close friends and family,
and you know, just living. I thought I would die

(01:45):
at twenty four. I'm alive.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
You're alive and kicking and kicking really hard. What's really
fascinating is how when we first met thanks to Ali Khan,
our common friend and fellow actor, at our dear friend
Korean's house, and we used to have those crazy days
and nights where we would play risk and talk about

(02:13):
everything from divinity to death. I think me and you
didn't quite like each other initially.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
Uh, not really.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yeah, because we were both very big personality.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
You were big. Not only that I would at that time,
you know, in my intoxicated state rather brash. I was
rather brash and very forthcoming, very forthcoming. Yeah, to put
it well, I think it was the intoxicants, Yeah, because

(02:45):
I was such a nice person. Actually. Then inside of me,
I think I have grown ever since I've sorted out
my issues. Yeah, and in some ways acting has been
really therapeutic for me, especially the theater, and it has
helped me grow. And it is important, I think, for

(03:07):
any human being to delve inside because we have a
lot of crap that we grow up with and we
bury a lot they we bury a lot buried and
a lot of childhood things and which we ignore, which
leave indelible impressions on our video screens. Yeah, so it

(03:31):
is necessary to go back and look at all that, Yeah,
and then sort yourself out. Of course, it's a long
journey never really ends we.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
Talk about childhood. You have a fascinating background. I mean
your father was a customs officer and a musician, and
especially that beautiful relationship you developed with this French boy
called Joan, who you met thanks to your father.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
So, Jean Christap Bullard is amazing story is. My father
used to sing with the Parento the Academy Chorus. He
had a great love for Western classical music, in fact,
all kinds of music, and he was ltcl. Trinity College.
It was one of his hobbies which gave him great
solos from the government job he had.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
He was an uprighte officer.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
He was. If he was corrupt, I wouldn't have had
this struggle. So he had gone touring with the with
the Parento the Academy Chorus in nineteen sixty five, I
think it was sixty six, and they went to about
thirty countries and sixty cities, you know, singing, and they

(04:42):
were performing at all the very renowned opera houses around
and that time they had no money. I think they
got ten pounds or something like that as allowance. They
were put up by local classical music societies all over
the world and people you know, hosted them. So at
one such place in tour in France, he was hosted

(05:04):
by a doctor, Pierre Boullard. When he walked into this house,
there was this little boy who was about my age then,
and he was waiting eagerly at the door because his
father told him there's an Indian coming to see him.
And he saw my father in a suit and tie

(05:24):
and then just burst out crying. My father was like
a ghast. Other Wise, this little boy upset at seeing me.
Doctor Bullard explained to my dad that he was expecting
an Indian with feathers, and he was rather appalled, you know,
and upset seeing a man in a suit and a tie.
Then my dad made friends with him, and when he

(05:47):
came back, my dad told me that this boy is
exactly like you. He asked a lot of questions and
I've given him our address and he will write to you,
you must correspond with him, and promptly he did write
to me, and we started this pen pal thing correspondent correspondence, yeah,
where he would pour his heart out in French. He

(06:08):
would write letters in French, my dad would translate them
for me, and I would write in English and his
father would translate the letters until he was sent to
Ireland to a boarding school so that he could learn
English because his father wanted him to be a doctor.
Then he started writing in broken English. That was much later,

(06:30):
So that's how this correspondence began. And then I was
storing in two thousand and eleven with a show and
I was in tour. So I told the manager of
the company. I said, man, I got to find out
this guy. He is a doctor now, doctor Jean cristobalard I.
We were pen pals, and I know his address snail
mail writing. I knew wry I'll find him.

Speaker 1 (06:53):
And he there was an amazing detail where he would
send you used pencils in the letters that he would
write you. He would include this gift of pencils.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
I never understood why. And then I met him and
he asked me to sign the brochure of the play
that I was doing and I took out my mob
blanc and I was signing it, and he looked at
it and said, wow, you now signed with a mob blanc.
And I used to send you those pencils because I
thought in India people were poor and they didn't have

(07:26):
pencils and rubbers, so all my half used pencils. I
would send them in letters.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
That's amazing. That letter was so moving because you lost
your father when you were very young, and you wrote
to him and you said, I've lost my translator.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
So after we met, when I met him in twenty eleven,
after this manager at tracked him, his mother actually came.
His mother came to the show, and she was a
little wary for this whole story that I told, you know, father,
I'll give him your contact, etc. Didn't really give me
his number, but she finally did give him my number

(08:08):
and he called me while I was in France and
we had this amazing catch up for two hours. My god,
it was so emotional, I can't tell you. So then
he said to me, I have kept all your letters.
I have all of them, wow, and particularly this one
I remember, and he quoted some lines from that letter.
I said, wow, you remember he said, yes, yes, and

(08:32):
I'll send you back the letters. And he sent me
all the letters. And I can't tell you those letters
were written. Maybe I was about nine, ten, eleven, twelve
thirteen around that time, and this particular letter was informing
him of my father's passing away. And when he sent

(08:54):
me back this letter quite recently, I can't tell you
what healing it was for me to read that, because
it took me back into that state of mind, to
the little boy who were with the little boy I was,
and the grief I felt then, and it really healed
a lot.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
That's so beautiful because you know, today in this day
and age, Denzil, I just find that people talk about intimacy,
but they do not know what the other person's handwriting
is like.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, and this.

Speaker 1 (09:29):
Is so magical because I feel if you don't know
someone's handwriting, how do you truly know them?

Speaker 2 (09:33):
Absolutely? Talking about the healing that it did for me,
you know, I realized there was a resentment I had.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
And you lost your father, Yeah, and.

Speaker 2 (09:44):
I held that resentment against him. You felt abandoned, so
it was Yeah, it was a resentment towards a dead
person who has gone many years. You know, Yeah, I
didn't realize it for a long long time. But to
add to that, recently, his mother passed away Sean Christov's
and he went back to the family home and he

(10:07):
found all the letters that my father had written to
his father and mother, and he sent me back those letters.
So I got a greater insight into my father's state
of mind at that time in the sixties. I still
have those letters with me. I got to know my
dad through those letters.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
Yeah. Yeah, you recently lost the dearest person in your life,
your mother. I'll never forget how she looked at me
and I was wearing red. It was Easter, and she said,
I like your red, way more red. And she would
wear this slash of red lipstick all the time. And
believe me, every time I see anything read in my

(10:48):
closet now reminds me of first. So I think that
for the rest of my life, I'm going to be
wearing red in honor of her. And you moved back
into her home, a home you grew up in, and
I remember you telling me that, you know, besides the
living memories of her, there's so much that you've experienced
within that home, whether it was falling into addiction, getting sober, relapsing,

(11:13):
getting sober again. And you set every corner, every tie,
every nail has a memory. So the wall scream you said,
how is that? How are you feeling now?

Speaker 2 (11:28):
Uh? It keeps coming back, Yes, yes, yesterday. Actually I
was thinking about it when I was in the toilet
there and of all the towery hours I used to
lock myself in there and do lots of nonsense. You know.

(11:48):
The day you came, and that was just a few
years before she passed away, was one of the last
few times she really smiled and talked.

Speaker 1 (11:59):
She wanted me to sit by her side.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yeah, and she was smiling. I remember that smile when
she saw you and she said, you know nice red.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah. I remember when you propped her up and you
tied her a hair into a ponytail, and it was
such an intimate moment and I'm so privileged to have
been in the room at that time. I really wanted
to take a photo, but I didn't want to intrude.
But now I just wish I did, because the two
of you sitting side by side, you just well like

(12:31):
a mini version of her. And I think that's where
you get your spirit from. I mean she was ninety
four years old.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, she was. Some parts of her life were very difficult,
which I contributed to.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
She loved you.

Speaker 2 (12:44):
She loved me a lot, and that's what saved me. Actually, yeah,
it saved me. She never gave up. The whole world
gave up on me when I was in the depths
of despair. She never gave up. I had caused a
lot of grief during my difficult days, but I was

(13:05):
glad that I was able to make it up to her.

Speaker 1 (13:09):
Oh you did. I'm witness to that and.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
Make amends, yes, which I am so grateful for. And
the latter half of her life she lived rather comfortably
and she was happy. Losing a parent later in life,
I think is far more difficult. When you're young. You
brush it aside, and it's there at the back of

(13:32):
your mind, but you don't really do. You have other
things that you occupy yourself with. When you lose a
parent one you're older, it's far more difficult.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
I can't even imagine. I guess you never know until
you feel that loss.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
And however much you prepare yourself for it, still it's
still there, and it's a grief which stays with you.
It will stay with you and one has to accept that,
but one is grateful for having had such lovely, caring parents.

Speaker 1 (14:08):
Yeah, but the grief, Denzil, do you think that as actors,
as entertainers, we harness that and we tend to mine
it and that also does help. But then you walk
around holding onto these emotions that you tap into and

(14:28):
put back into use when you are in front of
a camera, and that is really where the trouble begins,
because we do tend to carry this weight around because
it's emotional arsenal in that sense, and as actors we
are meant to have this access to our emotions. But
is it a business that incubates addiction in that sense?

(14:50):
Because when you do a show, when you do a film,
you want the audience to get addicted to it. We
ourselves are in a position where the highs are tremendous
and then the lows are what they are. And I
remember you were such a great help to me when
Bomby becomes released in two thousand and twenty one, and

(15:13):
you're the only one who called me at that time
and said, Pooja watch it. This is when you need
to be careful because you are on the path of sobriety.
And you said that it's when you touch the highs
when the movie is a hit, when the show's a hit,
when the bank balance is full, that's when you could slip.
And that was such sage advice, puja.

Speaker 2 (15:35):
For people like you and me and for many others,
we have to treat success and failure both as impostors. Yes, yes,
that is how I begin to look at it now. Yeah,
they're both impostors, right, because both can bring you down completely.

(16:01):
Looking at pain as a tool as an act for
an actor that you talked about, it's what they call
in different schools of acting, emotional memory. Now that can
be useful where you draw upon experiences from your childhood
or the past. Initially you pull out those whole experiences

(16:26):
and transfer them into a character or into the context
of the script. But later on you can it becomes
a technique. It's craft. Now, this craft I remember very
early when I when I wished to the theater, and
I have my very good friend, you know, I used
to spend a lot of time with him and in
his house actually Javid Jeffrey jeff and his father is

(16:50):
then for whom we all know as Jagree. I used
to spend a lot of time with Jagge Bunker Javid
than you were friends. But I would not spend time
with Javida. I would sit and chat with uncle right
and for hours. He would tell me his stories. He
used to tell me about how he grew up on
the bikele a bridge with his mother when he came

(17:10):
to Bombay as a child. We were talking about acting.
If I recall now, my first acting lessons were him.
I said, how do you cry? And listen that? He said,
just look at me, stare into my eyes. And I
just looked at him, and within one second he had
tears streaming. I said, how did you do that? Saying
just my past, my memories of my childhood and the

(17:34):
difficult times. I just have to recall that, and zap,
he was just weeping. I said, wow, that is technique.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
This whole simple exercise of sitting down and looking into
each other's eyes, actually looking, not pretending to look. Then
you connect with the person there. Then you realize that hey,
we are the same yeah, and that connection is actually
so moving. But that's exactly what we're always running away from.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
Absolutely, this running away I feel is now being facilitated
by technology.

Speaker 1 (18:13):
It's actually drawing us further away from each other, growing.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
Further away from each other, and we have that I
contact that you talk about. Yeah, there is a generation
I know of young kids who are awkward in the
presence of other people, but when they're online they communicate fully.

Speaker 1 (18:34):
That's very true. Both you and me grew up in
a Bandraw where there were no phones exactly, but yet
we reached everywhere on time, and you knew exactly where
to find the next drink or the next kind of party.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
And you know where your friends were in the evening.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah, and you never have to work.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yep. It was a different era.

Speaker 1 (18:51):
But how different is Bandra? Do you remember that time?
It was Deli Tyles's birthday, Yes, and we ended up
back at his home, which is I think two buildings
away from where we're sitting and recording right now. So
I must admit I know the area, but I have
very blurry memories of what building exactly thanks to all
the whiskey I imbibed, and me and you decided to

(19:12):
walk back home at some four in the morning. Yeah,
and we walked from Pali Hill all the way to
you know, Reclamation and you gave me a running commentary
on every home, every lane. You had a story. You
were like, in this bungalow, this used to happen, and
so and so lived there, and this is where we

(19:32):
hung out, and this was needle Park. I just felt
that I was walking through time. That night is so
vivid or that morning. Rather, you should actually have a
see Bandraw through the eyes or relive Bandraw through the
eyes of Denzil Smith, because you have so many memories.

Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, one grew up here, you know, I mean one
I grew up in this quaint little town. It's unique. Yeah,
it's a unique place in the whole of India where
melting pot melting part. It's a unique subculture, subculture of
a subculture, you might say, where it was predominantly Christian
at that time, but it wasn't really Christian in that sense. Yeah,

(20:16):
in its more rays and things like that, because we
had everybody living here. There were Muslims in those parsis
Sydney's everybody. Everybody didn't. We didn't. It didn't matter to.

Speaker 3 (20:29):
Us at all at all in school who was who
we were all one. My greatest education, I tell you,
was having boys in my class who drove up in
Mercedes Benzies and boys who came.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
To school without chapels.

Speaker 1 (20:50):
Correct.

Speaker 2 (20:51):
Yeah, I think navigating those two sides, those two extremes,
those friendships, is what my education is all about.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
Absolutely absolutely.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
That I was able to you know, talk to have
friends from there and have friends from there. Yeah, yeah,
and anything in between. That was the real education I think,
and which most of our schools in Banda had.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
I don't know if it still exists, but we meet still.

Speaker 1 (21:29):
On the same you know, we connect on that same level.
I mean, no matter where somebody has reached in life,
no matter how far back they might have fallen, supposedly
by the standards of the world, when one meets, you
connect and you take off from where you left off.
And which is why there's so much of emphasis on seniority,
not only in terms of career or in terms of age,

(21:52):
but in terms of people who had more life experiences
than you, and you valued those life experiences.

Speaker 2 (21:59):
That's where I am. Yeah, there is so much more.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
To do, There is much more to do for ours.

Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah, and we're running out of time.

Speaker 1 (22:09):
Yeah, you're going to be around telling stories at ninety four.
Much like my favorite character you ever played, was you know,
the lead in Bombay Jazz? In fact, one of my
favorite plays one that you produced about the jazz scene
and also interestingly about Hindu film music and the connection
between the two and how much jazz was actually incorporated

(22:32):
and inculcated in US. And most of us know the tunes,
they know the song, but we do not really know
the history. So how did Bombay Jazz happen?

Speaker 2 (22:40):
I was at a talk at Tritzy Theater one Sunday
morning where Girishkarnard was in conversation with Mahsdatani, and in
the interval of that me I was sitting outside in
the cafe and I met an old friend, Ramu Ramanathan,
who's a writer and also was in the theater. We're
having a little chat and I had just come across

(23:04):
narrations and Jerry's article, I mean, a little short story
called Morning You Play Different, Evening You Play Different.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
And I was really, you know, since my dad's connection
also with music and he had friends who were musicians,
et cetera, I found that subject very interesting of going
and angloin and musicians in Bombay and then performing when they.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
Were the live blood of the of the Hindi film.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
Music at that time, the live clubs, which was lots
of clubs Venice and top of the town, et cetera.
And I said, Ramu, so why don't we do play
on this? So he said, I don't know anything about jazz,
but would you help me. I said sure, I'll help you.
Help you and I approach narration. I said, give me
all the research that you've done on this subject. Then

(23:54):
Ramo said, no, no, this is not enough. I need
to talk to people. And I had friends who were
the children of some of these musicians. I Ramoo, I'll
fixed interviews with these people. Let's go, and we started
going around the city and meeting these musicians or their
families and talking to them, and the course of which

(24:15):
they brought out family albums, et cetera. So we looked
at some pictures and then that would trigger oh that
was there, and this was that, and I trigger another story.
And Ramo got a wealth of information, and I got
a wealth of pictures because I carried along a portable
scanner had scanned all the pictures. But the point which

(24:40):
the play makes to certain extent is that these were
musicians who contributed greatly. Yeah to I won't say Bollywood.
I don't like that word.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
Well, for lack of a better term, it's a Hindi
film in.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
Hindi film music. Yes, the Hindi film music between I
say the late thirties, forties to nineteen eighty, their contribution
was invaluable. Yeah, and many of the tunes, and you know,
they had a lot of these. They were exposed a
lot of Western music and jazz, and they brought these

(25:17):
influences into indie music. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:19):
I mean so many songs that people just sing because
they've been hearing it since they were children, and when
they listen to it again after they see the context.
I mean, I've seen so many people who I brought
to watch Bombay Jazz and they were like, oh my
god in I mean Adika, we know that song. Even
about Anthony Gonzalvez, I think you should tell that story.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
Anthony Gonzalvez was quite a genius. He was Leuxmikan's music
teacher and subsequently also the arranger for those fabulous background
scores which are like concettos. Actually, if you listen to them,
we're like classical Western classical concettos. That was all arranged

(26:01):
by Anthony Gonsalvas. In fact, that song my name.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
Is Anthony gonzal who has not sung that song at
some point.

Speaker 2 (26:09):
That's a tribute to him.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
Unbelievable.

Speaker 2 (26:11):
That's a tribute to him. They used his name and.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
He recently passed away usage.

Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah, he passed away and Goa in his nineties is
still giving viron lessons at ten rupees and died a bachelor.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
Unbelievable.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
Yeah. I think he was the first guy who did
fusion music. You know this concept of fusion right, right,
Indian and Western. Yeah, so you might say these were
the pioneers. He was, in fact the pioneer of what
we call today fusion right.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
So you're seeing the point that the play really was
making is that their contribution was immense, but they they
went unsung.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
They went unsung and died in penury.

Speaker 1 (26:57):
So from advertising you fell into acting.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yeah, you know, I was always interested in acting, and
I don't know, I just got drawn to it and
I wasn't doing it since school and college. But I
never really thought about being an actor professionally living in
India because firstly, my first language is not Indy. We

(27:23):
spoke English at home. Correct, My Hindi in Bandra extended
to right Jao left yao ileyao o jao either caro caro.

Speaker 1 (27:36):
Yeah, Hindi is a different it's a different category with Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:43):
Besides, I grew up on a diet of Western films.
You know, we we didn't really watch although we lived
in Bandra and sall the stars all around us all
the time.

Speaker 1 (27:54):
And it was no big deal.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
But it was no big deal. It was a part
of life. Yeah, Raja walking on Carter Road, the hundred
girls are screaming. What are they screaming for? In front
of Hashi? You know? Yeah, yeah, I would like to
have been an actor, but I said, what am I
going to do? Theater? Yeah, so I indulged in theater

(28:15):
and English theater and it never paid. It doesn't even
pay for even till today. It doesn't even pay for
your toilet paper. Yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
And you, for your first film was with Raji Ray.
And that's a fascinating story. I remember you telling me
that you just kind of cleaned up and you wanted
to get out of town for a while. And Raji
Ray was doing this movie that he was shooting in Scotland, right, And.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
I said Ragi giving me a partyer in this film
because I need to get out and just got clean.
Yes at that time, and I wanted to go abroad.
I think I was in love with a woman at
that time I was traveling who is also traveling to London.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
Okay, so that that that.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
Was a motivation. And I want you to go, and
I have no money to buy a ticket. You have
part there, any part, any part will do, but there's
no part for you. We are there's nothing. Finally I
convinced him and I said, t K, I'll make you
the heroines. Brother. So I said, yeah, I see land

(29:26):
up in Scotland, landed up in Scotland and Glasgow. And
then I get a call from Raji. We need you
to do a look test. So I said look test. Yeah, no, no,
there's another part which I want you to play. I
need you to look older. And I went down and
the makeup people came and they put on a mustache

(29:48):
and grayed me that and all that. I said, okay,
you're playing the heroines father now, So I said yeah, great.
So what what had happened was a senior actor, senior.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
Actor who was meant to play that was meant.

Speaker 2 (30:08):
To play that part who was boarding the flight the
previous night to come there and got smashed at Bombay
Airport and was boarded the flight completely smashed out of
his head and was creating a scene on the flight
and was storming up and down the aisle and all that,
and the crew got very hassled and the pilot abort

(30:29):
it the takeoff and brought the flight back to the
terminal and offloaded said I cannot take off this security risk.
I cannot take off right. So he was offloaded from
the flight and the shoot had to go on.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
So they asked me, this is this is this is hilarious.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
That was my debut in Hindi film.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
So look at it is crazy. I mean there you
were on the sober path and thanks to somebody else
who gets unhinged completely and alcohol is at play there too. Exactly,
you land your first major part in a Hindi film.

Speaker 2 (31:05):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
Wow, that's one hell of a story, mister Smith. So
we were talking earlier about the movies that you've done
and the directors you worked with, and as me a
pasmastan to Christopher Nolan.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
Nolan is an intense guy and highly secretive, secretive in
terms of what they don't reveal anything of the script
to you and even no, nothing is revealed. And in
fact you get your when you get your sides, you
are sitting with two executives and one ad in a

(31:44):
closed room where you signed three four das that you
are briefed and then you were given just your scene.

Speaker 1 (31:54):
Oh so you're not given a scripted entirety.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
No.

Speaker 1 (31:57):
Is he very precise director, a very.

Speaker 2 (31:58):
Precise director and act he he knows exactly what he
wants and shoots exactly that The scale of that production
was just something else and the professionals involved or top
notch Hollywood, and it was at that time it was
the most expensive Hollywood film ever produced of that year.

(32:19):
It was four hundred and fifty million dollars. Oh, fabulous budget.

Speaker 1 (32:25):
But even Deli Crime. He was so good in Deli Crime.
And you mentioned that the dop was brilliant and how
he would shoot with available light and by the time
Shifali went off to do a costume change, it'd already
knocked off the.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
Viewer that got into my salary by doing that, You know,
is is it down? And Ritchie Metha is a delight
to work with and a fabulous director was also very
clear about what he wants and where we would wait
for while CHEVALI went to the van to change because
the van had to be parked a little away at

(32:59):
a distance from the occasion, and came back. It would
be a clean forty five minutes to an hour, and
I would be sitting in faffing with Richie on the
set and I would change my clothes on the set.
I said, I'm not going back.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
You know that's old school training.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
Now. You know this was a small scene here. You
think you can do it, knock it off. And I said, yeah,
give me, give me fifteen minutes, I'll just learn the life. Yeah.
And we went and Johann the camera guy, was ready. Yeah,
I'm ready. I'm ready, and with this minimal lighting technique

(33:36):
and you were just put the camera and shoot and
we would take it. And by the time ship Ali
would come, this became a habit. Yeah. And soon Richie
later said that because of you and doing all these
scenes in between this, I advanced my schedule by three days.

Speaker 1 (33:53):
So you lost her on your per day. Yes, yeah,
And you were shooting with a Basma son during COVID
and you described to me the set and lightly because
there was all this kind of you know, you have

(34:14):
to follow the knobs and distance. And then there were
three hundred junior artists on that set. And then what
did they said?

Speaker 2 (34:21):
Back up?

Speaker 1 (34:22):
Is it pack up? The magic word?

Speaker 2 (34:24):
Magic word backup? And everybody ran like each other from
towards one small entrance to get out of there. And man,
I just stood there. I said, man, now what and
I said, Okay. Even half an hour later, I'm fine,

(34:45):
I'm not going to run. It was scary, indeed. Yeah,
but this was during COVID. Yeah, we were.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
Shooting from somebody who said all I knew of Hindi
was right, Jo left, Joe, you're pretty entrenched in the
Hindi film industry. We shot together for a film called Pop,
my first film as a director, and we went to Smithy.

Speaker 2 (35:07):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
Took us eighteen hours to drive.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
From scary scary. There were no roads, There were no roads.
You and doctor Ash, doctor Gasha, and I think John
also was in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I remember
him almost holding my hand and saying we're going to die,
We're going to die. And there was that generator van

(35:31):
took three days to come.

Speaker 1 (35:33):
I'll never forget. When I drove over this one particular
hill and I saw at a distance the generator van
Denzil and it looked like a little toy van. And
that's when it hit me. I said, what have I done?
I bought like one hundred and eighty people into an
unknown terrain. Nobody ever shot in that part of India before,

(35:53):
ever shot there before. And I said, oh my god,
I'm responsible for all of these people and their lives
because we were shooting at eighteen and a half thousand
feet a really high altitude.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yes, and doctor Mohanagashi and we played cards for five
days continuously, where I lost a lot of money. I
remember that.

Speaker 1 (36:13):
And you were playing this monk called Lama.

Speaker 2 (36:15):
Nor Yes, for which was the only time in my
life when.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
You shaved your head.

Speaker 2 (36:20):
I shaved my head. Really, yeah, I've ever shaved my
head after that or before that. What an experience that was.
I tell you, it was a spiritual experience actually for me,
because being in the presence of all those those beautiful, enormous,
gigantic mountains and one felt so small. Yeah, that's true,

(36:44):
in smally small, and the greatness of nature and the
force of nature really hit me. Then because you spent a.

Speaker 1 (36:53):
Month, more than a month, more than more than a month.

Speaker 2 (36:55):
It was glorious talking about.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
Coming face to face with me, and you know how
miniscule you feel in the face of it. It reminds me
of COVID when we were both holed up in our
individual homes in the country. Wow, and that cyclone hit
and you called me and you said, my door has
just been blowed off and my roof is shaking. And
there was this entire situation in India at that time with

(37:22):
the tragic demise of Sushanting Rajput. Yes, it was such
a dark time because the industry at was being you know,
pulled into the abyss really and there was this boycott
Bollywood trend that was happening.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
That was a very schemed planned attack.

Speaker 1 (37:41):
I remember talking to you about this and saying that Denzil,
if they're going to be criminalizing the act of imbobing
any sort of substance, don't you think it's going to
take all the work that's been done in the realment
recovery into the dark ages. I know that you are

(38:01):
actively involved. You take meetings, you sponsor people, and you're
an advocate for AA and you know, you work closely
with even Krippa Foundation, what father Joe has set up
and run so successfully for forty plus years now. And
I remember asking you as if somebody wants to seek

(38:25):
help at this point with a discourse in the country
where they dumb down everything with regards to mental health,
substance abuse, addiction recovery, will people actually seek help because
we do know for a fact that during COVID a
lot of people develop drinking problems.

Speaker 2 (38:45):
Addiction is a disease, Yeah, and it should be looked
upon as any other disease.

Speaker 1 (38:51):
As a model failing it's looked upon, but it is
looked as a criminal offense when it is actually a disease.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
Until that mindset changes in India and we have to
make every attempt to change that, yeah, and spread the
word that this is a disease. It's not there's nothing wrong.
They're not bad people. Addicts are not bad people absolutely,
or alcoholics are not bad people. They just have a disease.
They have a problem and that problem can be addressed.

(39:22):
That is AA. There is NA yeah, which is the
same program. Actually it's a twelve step program and it's
the best program that is available. People seek spiritual help,
you know, psychiatric help. Different kinds of help is available
for addiction, but it's unparallel to this herapeutic value of

(39:43):
one addict helping another or one alcoholic helping another is
without parallel.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
But like, for example, that I didn't go to aa uh.
Not that I feel superior that I didn't, but I
had a living example in my home called my edge butt,
and I chose to make the world my a class
choice about it loudly because that kept me on course,
you know. But I did go to Anna class, which
you were chairing, and I was so struck by the

(40:10):
lack of judgment in that room and the demographic actually,
and I realized that basically what people are lacking within
their own homes is the ability to be able to
really be emotionally bear with each other, and that's what
these classes actually give you. So I think that a
lot of people do not even know that help is available.

(40:32):
And also what I found fascinating was like COVID, which
didn't look at your bank balance or what sex you
are or how old you are, just infected your being.
When you're sitting in a room full of addicts, you
see people from different backgrounds totally different social strata, age groups,
but what is the same is the dependency. When I

(40:56):
first decided to quit alcohol, I did realize that a
lot of people didn't want to hang out with me
anymore because I, somewhere became a reminder to them that
they had a problem, and they were like, Oh, you're
not fun anymore. You don't laugh as much anymore. Come on,
have one drink for me. If you love me, you
will have a drink. It's my anniverse, you have a drink,

(41:17):
it's my birthday. One drink. I can't drink alone. Give
me company. And somebody very close to me, I think
I was a reminder to them that they had a problem,
and I got into a situation where the conversation became
pretty toxic and I was told great line though, that
get around my house with your halo of sobriety. And
I decided to put distance between myself and that person.

(41:38):
And I remember reaching out to you and saying that
I'm feeling guiltreed in for wanting to cut off because
at this point I think that this journey I'm on
is most important and nothing can come in the way.
And you told me something that really changed it all
for me, and you said, Puja, it was a selfish
illness and it's an even more selfish recovery. Anybody or

(42:01):
anything that gets in your way or gives you the
feeling that, hey, you might stumble because they are, you know,
triggering something within you distance yourself from and when you've healed,
then revisit that because you will heal and you'll be
able to handle that.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
Then you become selfless.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
Yes, yes, so I must say thank you to you
because you know I hold on to guilt. I'm a
pissy and grown up in Bandra with the Christian sense
of faith and belief. Guilt is alivee. So at every point,
even when you're recovering, you want to put the other first.
But it takes time to adjust to the fact that, hey,

(42:43):
you got to put yourself first. And only if you
heal yourself can you be of any used to anybody
in your life.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
Absolutely, See, guilt and shame are two things which are
not required. Yeah, yeah, and one has to heal oneself
from that and get of all guilt and James and
examine that which gives you guilt and jam.

Speaker 1 (43:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:05):
Another thing is, especially where alcohol is concerned, it's such
a socially accepted drink as it is the oldest drug
known to man. Yes, and is so socially acceptable that
people do not see the addiction creeping up and it
takes a long time to catch up with you. I

(43:25):
always say, eternal vigilance is the price we pay. And
as a part of that eternal vigilance, one has to
be selfish at times. Yes, one is too many and
a thousand never enough.

Speaker 1 (43:42):
Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (43:44):
People like us. There are other people who can have
two drinks in the night stop and stop.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, we don't have a full stop stop.

Speaker 2 (43:51):
Yeah, that's the disease.

Speaker 1 (43:52):
Yeah, yeah, I mean a lot of people have also
told me they that, you know, why do you choose
to go through life calling yourself an alcoholic? You never
had to be picked out of the gutter, or you
never kind of made an ass of yourself in that sense.
And my response is simpleer so that I'd rather go
through life calling myself an alcoholic and remain sober, then
go through life drunk and fool myself and tell myself

(44:15):
that I'm not a lot of people also say that,
you know, don't keep referring to yourself as an addict
or don't refer to yourself as an alcoholic, because then
that becomes your definition. Really, but I don't look at
it like that. I think that the stigma needs to go.
And if my are speaking out, if there is one

(44:36):
person out there who feels that, hey, if they could
do it, then we can do Because we drank, then
we pushed it to the limit.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
The bottom line of everything. If I accept that I have.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
A problem, yeah, the acceptance.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
Then I can do something about it. The first stip
is accepting that you have a problem and that you're
life is unmanageable. Now that is a question mark. People say,
my life is manageable. I've got a job, I'm holding
a job. I've never begged for anything, I've not gotten
into any trouble. I but your life is unmanageable if

(45:15):
you examined it properly. Your emotions are unmanageable. Everything is unmanageable.
And you're using as a substance or your drug of
choice to manage the.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
Business that we've chosen to be in Denzil. It's high stress.
There's so much of pressure all the time to constantly deliver,
to constantly be that money making machine for people delivered
on a superhuman level where the frailties and the humanness
actually is meant to be put on the back burner

(45:52):
at some way. It's a culture also, I'm not thinking
that it's not there in the corporate world and everywhere
else I'm talking about, mainly about our business becomes something
to take the edge off at the end of a
long day. It becomes something that you celebrate with. You say, Okay,
my movie is not work. Let's have a drink. You'll
feel better. And a lot of people who come into
the business also who might not im vibe, find themselves

(46:14):
slowly becoming part of this culture. It's a business of highs. Eventually,
the audience their eddichts. They need to consume that music,
the play, the entertainment that you're doling out. You want
them to be addicted to you and to the work
that you churn out. And we ourselves are addicted to

(46:37):
that feeling of you know, when you're on stage and
you know you've given a great performance and the human
contact and the audience is giving you their response live.
That's what thereated us for you, right. But there's no
manual that teaches you how to deal with the silences,
those long spells of the phone not ringing like Lass

(46:58):
for example. Both lost so many friends along the way.
That's why when people say, oh, you've aged, I'm like,
it's a privilege to age, because we have so many
people who we've lost really young in their lives. In school,
they don't teach you about how to cope with loss.
They don't teach you about how to cope with grief.

(47:19):
It's a world that just says, achieve, achieve, achieve, and
alcohol delivers. Society fails, alcohol delivers and COVID. I wouldn't
have been able to go through COVID if I was
still drinking. I was able to tune in and deal

(47:42):
with the uncertainty that we were all plunged into because
I had decided to walk on this path of sobriety.
Because then you've got to sit with your pains and
sit with what it was that you were running away from,
and all the uncomfortable things rise, and then you've got
to kind of lock horns with it, tame your demons,

(48:04):
make them into friendly ghosts.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
That's what it's all about. It's all about looking at
yourself and if you're able to sit with yourself without
doing anything, with just the silence and be comfortable with
that silence. I think that is bliss.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
The problem is that the world does not allow you
to do that. Yeah, or you don't allow yourself because
you have access to so many things to run away withah,
and you're running away continuously. You're not processing all the
emotions that you're going through. And then you think you're
getting away from everything by having a drink of getting high.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
So anything that you do to escape discomfort and that
gives you temporary relief.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
Yeah. Now, people to escape their discoverment become workaholics.

Speaker 1 (49:05):
Of course, workoholism. I mean the social media addiction, gambling addiction,
love and sex addiction, and.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
There are several several food big one. Some people inject
rupees into their bank account to escape, and some people
inject heroin.

Speaker 1 (49:22):
Yes, yes, you know, so everyone's addicted to some.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
To realize that, accept the fact that to do something
not to be running away from to do it for
the sake of for you liking to do it, and
to be able to still be able to have an
identity and be yourself without doing anything, not because of
this work that that I've that I've achieved, or that

(49:50):
fame I've achieved.

Speaker 1 (49:52):
Beyond all of that.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
That is me.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
Yeah, I think you said it because I mean, you
know a lot of people try to simplify for me
and say, oh, is this a consequence of the fact
that you came from a broken home. I'm like, no,
you forget that. I went through the most traumatic phase
of my life and that phase was fame happening to

(50:16):
me at the age of nineteen. Absolutely, and by the
time I was twenty, I was probably on everyone's wall. Absolutely,
And then by the time you're twenty one, you're like,
is this it? I mean, I was a bandrug girl,
like you said, we grew up never taking ourselves too seriously.
I've been very lucky. I've got these movies that have
made this money, and I've traveled the world and people
I'm filling up with, you know, stadiums and they're lack

(50:38):
and a half people screaming over your name.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
And then you're like, so what that can be?

Speaker 1 (50:43):
Yeah, it's heavy, but then you're like, so what is
this it?

Speaker 2 (50:46):
Absolutely?

Speaker 1 (50:47):
So it was really the vacuousness of that that made
me want to escape. I said, there has to be
more to life. And then of course when I stumbled
onto filmmaking, I felt a certain sense of gratification. I
felt that, you know, I mean, my self esteem actually
came back at that time when I stepped away from
the spotlight, not while I was in that I was

(51:09):
very reluctant. It was a reluctant star. And today when
I come back to acting, I do so with gratitude
and much more understanding because of the fact that a
I've been away from it and I've made films so
I can understand the process and respect the process. Most
have more patients, but because of sobriety. But I'm able
to just be comfortable in my own skin. And it's

(51:30):
taken me so long to realize that the answers do
not lie anywhere else in my own skin with myself,
and that, you know, I always looked for home, and
it took me so long to realize that I am
my home. I am home.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
It's an inside job more than an outside.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
So very often I've just you know, it might sound
really corny, but I've actually patted myself and say hey,
thank you to this vessel called this body for carrying
me for this long. So I think COVID was traumatic
in many ways, but also so liberating, and it brought
me closer to myself.

Speaker 2 (52:06):
Yeah, but it worked in the rivers for many others,
it did. It did. So many people killed themselves. Yes,
so many relationships, god.

Speaker 1 (52:16):
Families broken because they were just not used to being in.

Speaker 2 (52:18):
The same room for so long, so long exactly. Eventually
one has to realize that my identity is not my car,
not the clothes away, and not my fame. What is
my true identity inside of me? Yeah, and one comes
to terms with that or realizes that or sees that,

(52:41):
then I think one is at peace with the world
and with oneself, and one one is at peace with oneself.
One is that peace with the world.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
That's true, that's true. I mean the real battles you're
actually fighting are within within.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
Yeah, worst enemies most of us.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
When you enter a program, they actually advise you not
to get involved with somebody for the first year or two.
Can you explain.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
Why sex it can trigger right, trigger you all over again.
And then this intense feeling of what we call love
sometimes is misinterpreted.

Speaker 1 (53:19):
Right, So you're saying that the fix that you got
from the bottle.

Speaker 2 (53:22):
You transfer it on to something and.

Speaker 1 (53:24):
You use that person then to give you that high,
to get.

Speaker 2 (53:27):
You that high and to get that fix. And if
that fix is not there or breaks away from you,
you go through immense pain and you can't handle that pain,
and you go back to your addiction.

Speaker 3 (53:40):
Right.

Speaker 1 (53:41):
So, whether you use a person or you use a substance,
it's addiction. It's addiction, and you've got to stay away
from that.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
So, just as you have alcoholics anonymous and alcohotics anomyres,
also something called sex anonymous. Yes, and that's why they
advise in the first if you are if you've been
saying not to get into a relationship, but you know,
before we move.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
Away from a diction. I think an important thing to
drive home is that I remember asking my father when
he had twenty five years of sobriety, that, Papa, you
been sober twenty five years. You can have a drink now,
And he said, no, I cannot, because one drop and
I'm back in the gutter. I couldn't understand it, Denzil,

(54:25):
until I got on this part myself.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
One is too many and a thousand never enough.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
Absolutely, So this thing of oh but Dentzil, you've been
sober fourteen years or twenty years in pujan you're almost
a decade. That means you've recovered.

Speaker 2 (54:37):
You recovered, So that we have to understand that we
have an allergy. Absolutely, it's an allergy.

Speaker 1 (54:45):
I don't process it like you would.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
Yes, it's an allergy towards substances, to your drug of choice,
or towards whatever substance.

Speaker 3 (54:52):
True.

Speaker 1 (54:52):
And if you walk into someone's housand you tell them
that you know, I'm allergic to seafood, say, for example,
they would not force you to eat it exactly. But
if you say I'm allergy to alcoholisms, have one, nothing
will happen.

Speaker 2 (55:04):
Yeah, yeah, they won't accept it. Yeah, it's an allergy,
and you have to accept that you have an allergy.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
But do you think the government needs to do more?

Speaker 2 (55:13):
I think that judiciary has to be educated on this subject,
especially because a lot of criminal offenses that are committed
or people arrested because of addiction or alcoholic.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
They should be going to a program and not to jay.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
They should be going to a program. Yeah, so the
judiciary and the judges have to be you know, educated
on this subject. Yeah, how to treat addicts and alcoholics.

Speaker 1 (55:39):
That's so true, because I mean, you arrest an addict
and you throw them in jail with like hardened criminals,
and you're ensuring that they would remain addicts for life.
There's no hope of recovery. So yeah, we have miles.

Speaker 2 (55:50):
To go before miles to What is happening now around
the world is that that regression and leaders are activating
that that reptilian brain which is dormant in us, and
hate is being propelled. Yes, it is being done all
over the world. I think it was Plato who said

(56:11):
the world will be at peace only when it is
ruled by poets and philosophers. Use poets and philosophers activate
that higher consciousness who live on that other conscious plane. Yes,
and if they rule the world in every country, will
the world rise?

Speaker 1 (56:29):
Yes. You have even more responsibility when you are an
artist today, because how do you hold onto humanity in
a world that is just so full of hate? At
every point you're being told to kind of suspect the other,
hate the other. They're driving home this feeling in you

(56:49):
that you know, oh my god, Denzil is going to
take my mossel of food away from me, so he
needs to go. What I loved about the Hindi film industry.
Is nobody ever considered what your surname was. An actor
was signed because an actor was going to be right
for that film and an actor was a star and

(57:11):
that was enough. But for the first time, I see
division within my own film industry, where there is a
clear line and people leaning right or left or worse.
According to me, are the ones who sit right in
the center.

Speaker 2 (57:28):
And it's most unfortunate that it has come into the
most the most liberal of industries, which was It may
have existed in other areas, yeah, but never in the
film industry in India.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
Yeah, you were talking about Jawd and you were talking
about Jagibi earlier. And I remember Jabe telling me, he says,
my father used to tell me is he says, Ki
Hindi film ka kam yeh kam al bujai. We put
the fires off movies like Anthony ware We spoke about
Anthony Gonzales. That is the India that I was born too.

(58:08):
And in my head and heart will die in because
I think that's what makes us so unique.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
It's very sad to see what's going on, and I
fear for this country, which I love very much. You
know I am not a rabid nationalist, although at some
times I believe that nationalism is like is another disease. Yes,
it constricts you from a from a larger vision, from

(58:35):
a larger consciousness of the world and humanity.

Speaker 1 (58:40):
You went to Canada for a short stint and you couldn't.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
I never intended to leave the country, but the riots
had happened, and you know, let's get the ship out
of me. I had never seen Bombay, and even if
it did, it never touched Bandra. But this time it did.
It came almost home, and I remember walking back and

(59:04):
late at night where I didn't see a single not
even a rat on the road or a dog at
the time of curfew, and that's really scared me. I
had this option of going abroad, and I took it,
and I went there, and I lived there for some time.
I said, no, I got to go back.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
This is my home, this is our home.

Speaker 2 (59:24):
Yeah, yeah, this is the land I lived in all
my life and I love it. Yeah, and I came back.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
But talking about Canada, You're married to glorious Carissa, this
Canadian and is a whiskey Cornessey, among other really fine things.
And you have such a unique relationship the two of you.
What's it like living in a home where you've got
these glorious bottles of mold stacked almost up to the ceiling.

(59:53):
I remember walking into your home once and saying, Denzil,
why didn't you meet Caissa in our glory days when
I would be drinking whiskey so we could imbibe. But
she's one of those people who has these whiskey tastings
and drinks into five mL.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
She is. She's a genius at it. She's a connoisseur.
She knows her maltz by the back of her toenails, yes,
and appreciates them and actually is academic about it, you know.
But she's not an alcoholic, and she can just taste,
and you know, she enjoys doing it. She has these

(01:00:28):
whisky tastings and all, but I keep away and she
respects that I do not drink.

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
But I think that that's what I see with the
two of you. There is palpable mutual respect.

Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
We are companions, we're friends. Yeah, And when are you.

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
Going to make that movie on Bandra that you always
speak about?

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
Oh that's still in process.

Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
You in love?

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
Yeah? Horman? Well, well, uh man, you know that this.

Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
Dialect, this dialect is unique, and before it vanishes, we
need to capture it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
We need to capture it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
Yeah, and I see bungalows disappear. It's like a part
of my soul is being you know, Yeah, eraised forever.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
All you're saying exactly, and very.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
Soon none of it will be around. But then those
relics of people, Yeah, and that mindset will remain in
the little nooks and crannies of the neighborhood. And we've
got to keep it alive.

Speaker 2 (01:01:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
But before we move on, I want to ask you.
You played Nehru and you played Jena. What was more
difficult to play? And who did you enjoy playing more?

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
See Nehru has a lot. Yeah, there's a lot of material,
et cetera. Footage portrays everything in India. Your own row
was when I did it with Vijmata, who directed to
the play letters to Totter from prison. She gave me
access to Film's division. I was in.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
Alone of the archives and the all of their arts.

Speaker 2 (01:02:09):
Oh wow. Two three days I sat in Film's division
at Pederod in that auditorium alone and saw all the
footage they had shot on Oh Yeah, that was fabulous.
Then she introduced me to people who knew Nerow Narrow
at twenty eight, I think secretaries, one of whom I
met and learned some, you know, interesting details about his life.

(01:02:31):
Whereas Jina has been demonized in this country. Now, Gina
and Narrow are very similar actually if you look at
their backgrounds. Both of them came from wealthy families, both
educated in London, both went to the bar. Yeah, both brilliant.
But Gina, most of it is demonized history that we

(01:02:52):
have here. So I had to delve more into Jina
from all aspects to learn him in a balanced way. Yeah.
If I have to blame him, I have to be
convinced correct that he was doing right correct. Yeah, So
I have to see all his points of view. So

(01:03:13):
I found Jinna far more interesting to do. And there's
very little footage of him here in India at this point.
He had a different mind, and everybody blames him for
the partition, and in fact they blame Nehru, they blame Ghanhi.

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
Yeah, I was about to say that we're talking about demonizing.
I think Nehru is pretty much, I mean, far more
than Jeni at this point in our country but that's
a whole different yeares episode.

Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
Absolutely, my dear in though, never do anything in secret
or anything that you would wish to hide. For the
desire to hide anything means that you are afraid, And
fear is a bad thing and unworthy of you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:57):
Love that what a beautiful line. That's tunning. So fear
is a bad thing and absolutely unworthy of us. So
we will recover, not in the shadows, but openly. We
will hold our frailties to light. We will show us
cars to each other and to the world and say, hey,
we've survived that too. And we will continue to pot
around in our gardens, and we will continue to create

(01:04:20):
and believe and recite potty to each other in a
crumbling world, and walk through Bandra on occasion and recount
the stories and the people who hung out of balcony.
And we shall leave the world in a slightly better
condition than we found it. I must say that you

(01:04:40):
already have you did something amazing. You brought the first
post box to our little Adibasi village, you know, through
your good offices with the Postmaster General. And I'm so
grateful to you for that. So you've already left the
world in a place TENSI and you've contributed to my

(01:05:01):
life and you've made it richer.

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
Or an emotional Ah. Help you been to me, you know.
I you know I come to you very often to cry,
to cry.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
And I did hold your hat for that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:17):
So I and you always have given me the best
counsel I could ever have. Who would have thought thought.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
Wow? But thank you and thank you for trusting me.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
We all feel defeated at some point to each other.
We have friends and good people whom we trusty. Life
is beautiful. Thank you, Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
Before you go, we have a segment where we flip
the table. Is it anything you want to ask me?

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
Though? Please? Do you know you have this amazing sense
of space, of design and putting things together? You know, really,
where does this come from? What were your influences?

Speaker 1 (01:06:05):
I think my mother she had this amazing capacity to
really stretch a rupee and she would make curtains out
of sardis, and you know she loved color everywhere. So
I think being able to create beauty from nothing is
what I learned from her. That you don't need a
lot of money exactly, I need a large budget to
make a room seem comforting. And exactly I learned that

(01:06:29):
from one night for some strange reason, when I was
nineteen twenty, I just spent all my money on buying
architectural digest and in those days it cost a lot
of money. I still have them all saved from the nineties.

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):
But what an aesthetic you have, not only externally.

Speaker 1 (01:06:44):
But thank you, yeah, and thank you for doing this
and sitting down with me. We can talk about lots
of things Densil forever. But before I go, I think
you have a you have an alternate career. I think
the Denzil Smith tour of Bandra.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
Retire.

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
Maybe we can do a documentary on that. So thank you,
my friend, and see you in the country soon enough.

Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
I love you.

Speaker 1 (01:07:12):
The Puja Part Show is produced by Mammoth Media Asia
and Epilogue Entertainment and distributed by iHeart Podcasts. The executive
producer is Jonathan Strickland, m