Our Love Survived A Bank Robbery And 21 Years Behind Bars

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome one and all to the Professional Homegirl Podcast. Before
we begin today's episode, we want to remind you that
the views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those
of the host and guests and are intended for educational
and entertaining purposes. In this safe space, no question is
off limits because you never know how someone's storyline can
be your lifeline. The Professional Homegirl Podcast is here to

(00:22):
celebrate the diverse voices, stories and experiences of women of color,
providing a platform for authentic and empowering conversations. There will
be some key king, some tears, but most importantly a
reminder that tough times don't last, but professional homegirls do
enjoy the show.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Hey, professional Homegirls, Welcome back to this week's episode of
the Professional Homegirl Podcast. Ishagar Ebina here and we are
back with a fire episode.

Speaker 3 (01:00):
Now imagine fighting.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
For nearly two decades to reunite with the love of
your life, like can you imagine for twenty one years
saying my man, my man, my man, and you cannot
physically be with him now. In nineteen ninety seven, both
of my guests made a life changing decision.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
They robbed the bank.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
However, all in hopes of securing a better future for
their family, but that choice, as we all know, came
with a heavy price. One was sentenced to sixty years
and remind y'all he was a first time offender, while
his wife served a shorter sentence, but she had to
go in after giving birth to her twins. Now, in

(01:39):
this episode, we explored the journey from incarceration to redemption,
the strength it took to keep their family together, and
how their story is a powerful testament to love, resilience,
and never given up on the people who mather the most.
And if you want to support them, please feel free
to email me at hello at the phgpodcast dot com

(02:00):
you would like to purchase their book in or watch
their documentary. So I hope y'all enjoyed this episode as
much as I did, so get ready to fill all
the emotions because this week's episode starts now. So to
my guest, it is such an honor to have you
both on the show. So thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (02:16):
How y'all doing, how y'all feeling oh good?

Speaker 4 (02:19):
Thank you?

Speaker 5 (02:20):
Yes, indeed yes, andratulations the podcast is doing so well.

Speaker 4 (02:25):
I'm so proud of you.

Speaker 3 (02:26):
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Me too, Me too.
It it's a long time coming.

Speaker 4 (02:30):
Child.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
I feel like when I was watching y'all story, especially
when I watched the documentary and I started tearing up
because I'm just a hopeless romantic.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
I feel like they don't make love like y'all know
more do y'all get that a lot?

Speaker 5 (02:44):
I just think that we are choosing not to believe
in love and fight for love like we once die.
We have just and if I can speak freely, yeah,
speak freely. I think it's because of our music.

Speaker 6 (02:56):
You know.

Speaker 5 (02:56):
It's like Baddy is talking about how you don't need love,
you know, and it's just like, wow, really, we're the ballads,
the songs that make us hopeless romantics and make us
believe that there is something greater operating that connects us
with one another, that reminds us that we really need
one another.

Speaker 4 (03:14):
And say that my baby daddy, y you heard that
song too?

Speaker 6 (03:25):
Right?

Speaker 7 (03:25):
Right?

Speaker 1 (03:25):
Right?

Speaker 6 (03:26):
No?

Speaker 3 (03:26):
I agree.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
I think that music because I love like old school
music and I was raised on that, so I do
believe that that plays a part in how we interact
with each other.

Speaker 4 (03:35):
Yeah, a lot.

Speaker 5 (03:36):
It's programming, So you know, I'm hopeful to invoke the
music of our society to give us more love ballace,
to help us return to each other by putting love
words to the to the sound of the drum and
draw us to one another.

Speaker 3 (03:55):
You sound like you've been listening to.

Speaker 6 (03:56):
Some brothers.

Speaker 3 (03:59):
On after this right right now?

Speaker 2 (04:02):
What did the American dream mean to you both before
the robbery and how has your perspective on it evolve
over time?

Speaker 7 (04:10):
The American Dream, I think that at least during the
era in generation that at least that Fox and I
grew up in.

Speaker 6 (04:17):
We know you're only eighteen.

Speaker 4 (04:19):
Yes, I am before your time.

Speaker 6 (04:21):
Yeah, but for a very long time, you know, we
had this image.

Speaker 7 (04:25):
Of two point five kids, a white house, a picket fence,
picket fence, you.

Speaker 6 (04:32):
Know what I'm saying.

Speaker 7 (04:33):
And we just had these images of what we thought
the quote unquote American dream, you know, look like to us.
And you know, just with programs that we grew up on,
watching Dallas, watching Falcon Cress, It's Landing, watching Dynasty and
all of these, you know, those were programs that were
reflective of American success. And just as we were thinking

(04:55):
that it was not something that was ascertainable for black people,
they gave us the Cosby has improved us wrong and
Bill and well not Camille, but it's actually.

Speaker 6 (05:10):
Who was his wife on the show. But here we are.

Speaker 7 (05:12):
You know, we see two professional people raising successful children,
uh in a Brownstone in New York, and then we
came to realize that, okay, with them, it's possible for
us as well. Even before that, weesey uh and George
gave it to us and the Jeffersons and it's poor
and broke as uh uh James were in the projects.
You know, we still had an idea in terms of

(05:34):
what we thought the American dream was, and that is
you know, reflective of what we.

Speaker 6 (05:41):
Thought, you know, and and you know, when.

Speaker 7 (05:43):
We set out to live our own lives and build
our own adulthood, you know, we we we went in
pursuit of.

Speaker 6 (05:51):
Of those of those images of those dreams.

Speaker 4 (05:54):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (05:54):
Yeah. I would say that that, at least for me.

Speaker 7 (05:57):
By large, Wood represent uh the construct social construct of
what I held in terms of what the American dream
is and should be for us.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
All yeah, that's gonna be my next question, like, do
you believe it's attainable for black people?

Speaker 4 (06:15):
I think that.

Speaker 7 (06:15):
William, I'm sorry, Daddy, I certainly believe that it's attainable
for black people because we see black people doing it.
I think that you just have to look in the
direction of what it is that you hope for to see.
If you're looking toward, you know, something that is totally
opposite of that, you know that's available for us to
see as well.

Speaker 6 (06:34):
Yes, I do believe that those things are possible.

Speaker 7 (06:36):
It's only because of that belief that we are possible,
meaning Fox and I, that we're celebrating thirty eight years
in union to one another and years of matrimony to
one another in you know, April of this year. So
with that being said, it's you know, I was just
we were just visiting my brother and my sister in
law this past weekend, and I remember actually watching the

(07:00):
two of them grow up. They've been together for probably
nearly fifty years now, they you know, all throughout Fox
and I is courtship. My brother sister in law have
been together and she is now ill, but my brother
is still right there with her. You know, he's not
in the streets, He not out holing is I don't
nobody know about it, all right, you know what I'm saying,

(07:20):
At least the guys carrying on with a level of
decency that nobody dirt but right. But if I had to,
you know, venture to say that, you know, he win
her all the time.

Speaker 6 (07:30):
You know, even when it's out, you.

Speaker 7 (07:31):
Know, steps out, he's like, well, you know, I got
to get back home because I ain't doing too much
moving right now. So you know we're doing too much moving,
you know. So it's that you know, he steps outside
of himself and says.

Speaker 6 (07:43):
You know, we are not moving right now.

Speaker 7 (07:45):
And so, yes, I definitely believe that it's that it's
possible for us because I see the examples.

Speaker 5 (07:51):
And I think he is. It's the concept that what
are we dreaming of? You know, because truthfully, the best
dream that we could dream of is love for ourselves,
companionship for ourselves, partnerships for ourselves, and the material goods
that we so often associate with the dream. Even us
at the onset of our marriage, we thought that the

(08:13):
American dream was securing the material goods that we thought
to get through this life, only to discover after risking
our family and that everything that we ever needed we
already had, and that was each other.

Speaker 3 (08:25):
It was that's how they program us.

Speaker 4 (08:27):
Yes, it was the.

Speaker 5 (08:28):
Fact and if everything that could come that was good
from that. So yeah, I do know that the American
dream is possible. But the American dream is not rooted
in material goods they go and come. The American dream
is really rooted in our ancestors who had a rate
that was higher than white people in this country before

(08:49):
being sixties.

Speaker 7 (08:52):
And understanding too that I think that there's more than
there's more than one American dream, right, there are many dreams,
you know, and you know inside of that American dream,
and we just have to identify the dream that speaks
most to us and go into pursuit.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
Of it, Like Jim y'all, y'all really giving me hope? Man, Yeah,
because to be honest, like and this is getting off topic,
but it's on topic. Like I'll be thirty eight in
two weeks.

Speaker 3 (09:18):
Well, no, next weekend, it's my birthday.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
Okay, Yeah, so even though I look eighteen like they said.
But Dayton has been really challenging. Like I don't know,
like when I watch your story, like obviously we have
a bigger topic when it comes to mass incarceration and
how it affects black communities, but like just the overall
just love that really kept y'all through it, and I
just feel like these days it's just not like that anymore,

(09:42):
Like every man's for themselves in a way that they
program or they try to program us with certain things,
Like it really makes a challenge it for you to
inspire to have a family like yourself or just you know,
that union that we are dreamed of.

Speaker 7 (09:55):
Yeah, we've become so sensitive as a people, I believe,
you know, I'm talking about that as individu rules and
collectively as a people.

Speaker 6 (10:02):
Yeah, that we seemingly can't take anything anymore.

Speaker 7 (10:05):
People look at Fox and I and they make the
assumption that, you know, everything's all good over here. But
you know, it's through our struggles that we've been able
to be the demonstration that other people see because we've
been able to hold on in spite of our struggles,
in spite of challenges, in spite of our disagreements.

Speaker 6 (10:24):
We as couples nowadays look.

Speaker 7 (10:26):
At it and shit, we don't have we don't we
don't even have the luxury of just dissing.

Speaker 6 (10:32):
Each other in the way that we do.

Speaker 7 (10:33):
But the trouble arises, you know, we all breaking for
the door.

Speaker 6 (10:37):
You know, it wants to put up with anything anymore.

Speaker 3 (10:40):
That's what Michelle Obama said.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
She was like she and like Barrock for like ten years,
but she was like I wasn't gonna leave him, like
I was, just what's ten years to thirty forty years
we've been together?

Speaker 4 (10:49):
Yes?

Speaker 6 (10:49):
Right?

Speaker 4 (10:49):
Yes, yes? Yes?

Speaker 2 (10:52):
So did y'all ever imagine y'all love story will become
what it is today?

Speaker 5 (10:57):
You know, Wayne Smillance, You know, I would have to
say that what God has done through us is nothing
more than a you know, nothing less than a miracle
one when you are an incarcerated family. In particular, as
long as we were incarcerated, our family did twenty one
years before we able to receive clemency through our governor

(11:20):
here in Louisiana. And so most marriages, don't you know,
when you talk about marriages as a whole, sixty percent
of marriages are ending in divorce, and so talk about
incarcerated marriages thirty percent. You know, it's less than thirty
percent of incarcerated marriages that make it in the first

(11:40):
three years of incarceration. And so what we have pulled
off is nothing less than a feat of miracle within itself,
I think. But what we came to understand was that
we were stronger together than we could ever be a
part part right, And that you know, four hands are
better than two four eyes are better than two eyes.

(12:03):
Just two minds are better than one mind. I always
reference the animal kingdom when we see animals. We don't
see them rolling alone, you know, And you know dogs
going in a pack, and and cows are and a pride,
and you know the herd and even a fish swim together.
In school. What I'm saying, but we get to think

(12:23):
thinking that we have the luxury to exist in this
life without one another, and I just think that it
is the farthest thing from reality. And that is why
we are struggling so hard as a because we are
not finding a way to connect and fight for our love.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
Right now, just to give a listeners some insight, how
did the two of you first meet and what was
your first impressions of each other?

Speaker 6 (12:46):
Well, there's two answers to that question, what one of us?

Speaker 3 (12:49):
You're right?

Speaker 6 (12:51):
So she had the last question. I'll leave with at
least I understand understanding.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
Right, because you are somebody Mandy, you read the book.

Speaker 6 (13:04):
Yes, but we met as a high school sweethearts.

Speaker 7 (13:08):
I had just exited high school myself and was first
tour duty in the military and went to the military
straight out of high school. Couldn't wait to get life
started on my own terms. And while I was home
on boot camp. From boot camp, a mutual friend of
ours she went to my church, but she and Fox
went to school together and they were auditching school. This

(13:31):
is where the story differs from one another. They were
ditching school in mind.

Speaker 4 (13:35):
Right, and see that's how he won't to understand.

Speaker 7 (13:38):
They realized that they needed a weird rise a ride
back to school. Her girlfriend wanted to call me and said, well,
you know, I think she said, my boyfriend or something
to that effect, is home visiting right now. I just
call him and get him to come pick us up,
to which I did. And when I got there and

(13:58):
opened the door, Fox answered it was her residence that
that I was arriving at, or that I arrived too.

Speaker 6 (14:04):
And when she came to.

Speaker 7 (14:06):
The door, I believe in that moment that I experienced
what some would identify as a what.

Speaker 6 (14:14):
Do you call it? Love?

Speaker 7 (14:15):
At first, now I knew I was feeling it. She
was trying to deny that she was, but I could
see it in her eyes. I could feel it into energy,
you know, and I can tell how she, you know,
kind of act like she wasn't looking at me or
you know, and so forth.

Speaker 4 (14:28):
And he is full of himself, isn't he?

Speaker 7 (14:30):
And so you know, I was convinced, you know, I
was convinced that I'm going to bring that up out
of her, you know, to let her know that this
is this is a thing happening right here between us.
And long story short, we ended up A friend of
mine joined me to come pick them up that day.
He was also home visiting from the military as well,

(14:51):
and he got Fox's phone number. Came back to my
house and we were looking for something to do later
on after we had dropped them off. The school hours
had passed, and I was like, well, we call old
girl on them and see see what they're up to. They,
you know, they might want to turn the block or
two with us, right He no answer. He and I
decided we're gonna go out anyway. We go out out.

(15:13):
The night comes to a close. I come back home
and I remember unplugging my phone in my room before
I left because I didn't want nobody else to use
my phone.

Speaker 6 (15:21):
I had all playing.

Speaker 4 (15:23):
Right when I got a vision.

Speaker 7 (15:26):
There you go, right, I plugged the phone back up
and I hit what we had then was called Star
sixty nine six.

Speaker 6 (15:35):
I know, I know, got to.

Speaker 7 (15:37):
Send you back to the last number that was called
from your numbers. So when I've done so, I called
back and she answered the phone and she's like, well,
you know what is this?

Speaker 6 (15:45):
I say this Rob? And she like Rob? Rob? Who?
And I say Rob. I came by a picky' all
up from her earlier today. I knew who you was,
you know, playing my girl playing right? Hold up? She's like, wait,
mane you want to man? And so she said, well
that's what Wanda told me. I said, well, I'm telling
you something.

Speaker 4 (16:05):
Different, said matter of fact, let's call you know, we
had options back then, so by to be called one
on three way. I was in love. I was like, no,
he didn't call one for me?

Speaker 6 (16:16):
Right?

Speaker 8 (16:17):
Wait?

Speaker 4 (16:18):
Where is one?

Speaker 6 (16:18):
Dad? Now?

Speaker 3 (16:19):
Y'all so cool with her?

Speaker 5 (16:20):
Yes, yes, yes, indeed, yes, indeed, yeah, yeah, oh.

Speaker 6 (16:27):
You want. Probably could have got me if she wasn't
pimping so hard. But I didn't feel right.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
Wander was outside. That's what it was. Oh that is
so funny. So you both had big dreams and you
both were actively pursuing them. So whether it was your clothing, story, culture,
the comedy store, you brought your first house, and there
was so much other things that y'all wanted to pursue.
So how do you think that societal pressures to achieve

(16:53):
success and wealth influence the choices you made in nineteen
ninety seven? Because I feel like y'all really were trying.
Y'all had really good intentions.

Speaker 5 (17:01):
I think that you know the term by any means
necessary fact, So we wanted success so bad we will
by any means necessary to do what we had to
do in order to achieve it. And it's what happens
to so many of us today. On every time you
turn around, it's some young black woman that's getting arrested

(17:23):
for a PPP mischions or you know this, the.

Speaker 4 (17:27):
Credit card fraud, or you.

Speaker 5 (17:29):
Know this that and the third all of these unnecessary
things trying to get the material dream instead of the dream.

Speaker 4 (17:36):
That really lasts.

Speaker 5 (17:37):
And the dream that really lasts is the love that
we carry with us on this journey. And for us
it was no different. We believe that we deserved it,
and you know, and we're willing to do whatever we
had to do in order to achieve it, just to
go back and learning that wisdom that the greatest gift
you can have in us life is life itself and

(17:59):
never put that at risk for anything else.

Speaker 7 (18:03):
Right now, that's the older portions of us speaking.

Speaker 6 (18:09):
People.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
I was like, I know you were now, I know
y'all was lit.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
I could tell when Miss Fox, when you was in
the documentary and you was like, you know, like you know,
shawing face, being professional stuff. And then when that lady
was like she said something to the fact of like
you like, did you check? And she was like nine,
check and she was like, well, why are you gonna
tell me one thing you can do other? And then
you just started going off. When you hung up the phone,
she was like, he's just not a nigga. And I
was like, that's the Miss Fox. I want to talk

(18:48):
to her.

Speaker 3 (18:49):
Let me because that's fresh trade, Like, why would you
lie to me like that.

Speaker 5 (18:52):
When you are in this system. And that's what I
say about risking it all. When you think about the
thirteenth Amendment and the only way that you can still
be a slave in this country, slavery is not over.
It is having well and the only way that you
can be a slave in this country is if you're
duly convicted of a crime. And so as black people

(19:14):
all that we have gone through to be free, then
the last thing that we can afford to do is
to And probably one of the things that tore my
heart apart was acknowledging that with my own hands I
had subjected myself back to slavery that my ancestors had
worked for hundreds of years to get out of with.

Speaker 4 (19:35):
My own will.

Speaker 5 (19:37):
And so it's just a matter of us placing proper
perspective on things that how dare we and so our
history by breaking the law?

Speaker 4 (19:48):
How dare you?

Speaker 3 (19:50):
Right?

Speaker 2 (19:51):
So I remember when I was reading your book, I
think either you or mister Robert mentioned that y'all was
watching set it off and then planning to seed in
your head. And I was watching dead Presidents the other
day and I was just like, you know, obviously we
don't condone crime, but I can see why a lot
of people will results to it because they need to survive. So,
do y'all feel like filmmakers have a responsibility about to

(20:12):
influence their stories girls that they put out there?

Speaker 5 (20:15):
Girl, let me tell you something, So I don't know
if it has been shared with you yet, but we
have made a sequel to Time.

Speaker 4 (20:23):
It is business thing and and it.

Speaker 5 (20:27):
Will be coming out this year. So we're really excited
about it. It is my debut and it was a
story that we were so intentional about telling them. We
raised the money ourselves to tell to make this film.

Speaker 4 (20:41):
This would not be denied.

Speaker 5 (20:42):
And so for me as a filmmaker, I feel like
we have a duty and an obligation.

Speaker 4 (20:48):
Uh to tell our stories.

Speaker 5 (20:51):
And so one of the things that I was sharing
we were at Martha's Vinyard Film Festival in Martha's Vineyard,
and one of the things that I was sharing with
the other filmmakers was that if we are in control
with the narratives that we are telling, why can we
tell more happier narratives?

Speaker 3 (21:10):
Right?

Speaker 5 (21:11):
If you have the power in your pin, you're writing
the story, you're getting this story produced, why not give
our stories our people hope. It should be a rule
that in every one of our stories that at the
end of that story there is a lining of hope
for our people. That we continue to do this trauma
pourn our calling where they are continuing to put the

(21:34):
trauma in us. Our stories are so much bigger than
the pain we suffer. You know, the movie Queen and
Slim as one of the examples, and people say, oh,
you and Ra remind me of Queen and Slim. I'm like, no, nigga,
they died at the end of yes away and kill them. No, baby, you're.

Speaker 4 (21:55):
Not gonna put that on us.

Speaker 5 (21:56):
But if we have the power to tell the stories
and sing the songs that the melodies, you get to
put this on the ethos of the planet, why.

Speaker 4 (22:04):
Not let it be good? Yeah.

Speaker 7 (22:08):
In adding to Fox's point as well, it's just when
it comes to filmmakers, I think all we're always kind
of like looking for a place to lay our wrongdoing.
But filmmakers, it's just art that they're doing, you know,
and art imitates life.

Speaker 6 (22:25):
I don't think it's the opposite way around.

Speaker 7 (22:28):
If those types of films, that the type of music
and the types of art that we see, the expressions
of art that we see in whatever medium that they
that they choose to do it from, I think that
the artist is depicting what the artist sees. It's not
necessarily us acting out based upon the art that is
being put out there. So I do think that, yes,

(22:49):
there may be some ethical issues when it comes to
you know, what we're choosing to spotlight or to show
its art or how we're choosing to express certain things. Yeah,
there's level of responsibility, I guess as it relates to it.
But at the end of the day, the judge ain't

(23:09):
pigling to wait up. They ain't pick up, They ain't
pick up Queen Latif and them. You know what I'm
saying that none of them rib and fox ass up
and say you all want but it's bank or just
rob And you know, we had to stand for that,
and they didn't want to hear that talk about. You know,
we even used at one point in my appellate process,
I even try to lean on a soft science that

(23:33):
they have called American dreams. Syndrome is a thing, you know.
But at the same time the court was like, yeah,
there also is a thing of free will, and you
exercise your free will on.

Speaker 6 (23:45):
That day to go in the bank and do it.
Did so I'm going to my free will and send
you right, you know.

Speaker 7 (23:53):
So other than that, I'm just a proponent of not
looking or seeking for places to cast our blame, but
to bring it back home and own it, the owning
of our own blame that we were able to hear
our calling. Sometimes God will put us through the universe.
Whatever it is that you believe as a higher power

(24:14):
or a God construct, I think that you know, when
we look at it all or whatever. You know, we're
all born under a systematic, you know type of thing.

Speaker 6 (24:21):
We're all giving a clean slate, so to speak.

Speaker 7 (24:24):
And with that clean slate, just like Adam and Eve,
you know, you can make a decision through free will
to break you know, the codes or the rules that
have been set. Don't eat from the tree. Well, eat
from the tree anyway, since I got there, Okay, Well
you also got the will to be able to deal
with the sanctions.

Speaker 4 (24:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (24:41):
But at the same time, because God is all merciful,
all knowing, all present, and the likes, then salvation is
always available to each and every one of us as
a result of our transgressions. It is us now because
we're in that moment to where this is where the
trial happens. But as long as you stay true to
the trial, salvation will come because it always has from

(25:04):
every heart there in the Bible that we've seen from
the first one to the last one. We've always saw
salvation happen when you accepted wrongdoing or accepted how you
even got in the situation, and uh, and then just
work through it and then you know, allow allow the miracle.

Speaker 6 (25:20):
To be performed.

Speaker 7 (25:21):
I think it's right fact that we demonstrate to other people,
you know what I'm saying, of what's possible despite despite
our realities.

Speaker 5 (25:28):
You know that boy got that degree down there, it
in gol in theology, right right right. I just go
and sit in the prison. He got some lizard while
he was there.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
But I was reading about everything he was doing in prison.
I'm like, that's what I'm talking about. Like, you ain't
gonna have me sitting here looking crazy. We're gonna make
some shit happen. You was on programs, you had people
Mama's coming to see them, Yes, marathons.

Speaker 6 (25:56):
I was like, wow, life, don't stop life.

Speaker 7 (25:58):
And just because you in up being yeah, you got
the right to do that too.

Speaker 3 (26:04):
Yeah, that's a fact.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
So when everything was going down, did were y'all ever like,
did y'll have a question and be like are we
really about to do this shit?

Speaker 5 (26:11):
The entire time until the very last moment, and it
was just like nobody had the courage to say Okay, no, yeah,
I've been thinking about this concept of the best wife,
right and what makes the best wife, and in that moment,
I've always felt that I faltered and being the best
wife to my husband because if he couldn't think clearly,

(26:33):
then so my maternal instinct should have kicked in to say,
you know what, lose you. It's a chance, and the
chance that how big of a chance were taking here
is not a risk that I'm willing to take on you,
because I don't want to lose you.

Speaker 4 (26:48):
You know so.

Speaker 5 (26:50):
I think though, when we deal with each other in
our community, the same thing with mothers and they know
that their sons are dealing drugs, and you know, not
understanding that they're her sons are far more valuable than
any dollar they could bring in their house, no matter
no matter what economic constraints they're under. No dollar that
that child brings in the house is going to be

(27:12):
more valuable than that child being in your presence and
in your life.

Speaker 4 (27:17):
Keeping that child from being removed from you.

Speaker 5 (27:19):
Nothing is worth that, nothing losing a family member to
this system.

Speaker 3 (27:24):
Speaking of mothers, I feel like your mother still feel
away about everything.

Speaker 4 (27:30):
You're watching. On the end of that documentary, you would
think that she was. I think that, you know, over
space and time.

Speaker 5 (27:37):
My mother just thought I deserved better. She you know,
felt like Robert did that, go let him do that time.
You know, Yeah, things mamas want to protect, right, she
did not, and that this is my family.

Speaker 4 (27:50):
We did this.

Speaker 5 (27:51):
Together, my husband and I. It wasn't like he went
and did something and I found out later. I mean,
we were intimately involved in this whole transaction. So not
only did I have a duty and an obligation because
he was my husband, but he was also my fall
partner and above all, he was my baby's daddy, is
you know yeah, all six of them, all six of them.

(28:12):
And with that being said, if he is there, then
that's what our Christmas is. That's what I Thanksgiving, That's
why Easter is. It's with my family. No matter where
my family is, that's what we are. And so when
Rob came home, probably two years before he came home,
she started emailing him on the JPay system that they had,

(28:34):
so that was a really interesting thing to wash and
start developing a relationship together. Came home, and then after
he came home, in that moment while we were filming.

Speaker 4 (28:43):
I think it just was overwhelming. It's a lot, yeah,
to like take in like while he is really here.

Speaker 5 (28:49):
I don't even know how I really feel about this,
but we left home last week.

Speaker 4 (28:55):
Take him a whole bag of teacakes.

Speaker 5 (28:57):
Okay, today talking about she was gonna bake him a
pound cake.

Speaker 3 (29:01):
So John, that's good. Yeah, I was like, come on, mam,
we're here now.

Speaker 4 (29:05):
We told let me.

Speaker 5 (29:06):
Tell you like and you know, it was just the
fact that they had really never been able to spend
time with one another.

Speaker 4 (29:12):
We get to know each other.

Speaker 5 (29:13):
After rober and I married six months later, we had
found ourselves in this system, and then this system took
twenty one years of our life from us, twenty one
years of our family from us. And so now it's
just beautiful to watch her. I have to send you
a picture of this pound cake she made yesterday.

Speaker 4 (29:29):
But it's beautiful to watch her because my mother took.

Speaker 5 (29:32):
Sick last year and so I have been up in
Treeport taking care of her full time until she got
back healthy. And one of the medical episodes she was having,
we had to call the firefighters out. They come out
and they're trying to get her to, you know, see
if she is cognitive. And they say, well, who is this?
She says Barbara Richison. And they and the firefighter said,

(29:54):
and who is he to you? She said, my son
in law. Yeah, I had to pick up and put
it in a cause she looked at him, say me
all the way up.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
Okay, I gotta come vincit y'all Louisiana man.

Speaker 4 (30:15):
Were down here in New Orleans any time. Yeah, we'll
take you all around town to show you all.

Speaker 3 (30:20):
Okay, okay, be the third wheel.

Speaker 6 (30:23):
On super Bowl coming up super Bowl, be a third wheel.
You will be part of a party.

Speaker 3 (30:30):
Yes, because I know y'all get lit.

Speaker 6 (30:32):
Yes we do.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
Mister Robb, did y'all did you ever have a conversation
with your dad before he passed away?

Speaker 4 (30:38):
Good question.

Speaker 7 (30:40):
My dad and Fox's dad were both living with us.
Oh wow, but just before this, well actually during when
this incident happened. So it was really at a moment
that me and my dad were really finding our way
back to one another. When I came home from bonding
my parents, my parents, my siblings rather had my father

(31:03):
into an old folks home, and so one of the
first people that I went to see when I got
out of out of jail on bond and when I
went to go see him. You know, old folks homes
remind you so much of prison. They smelled and the people,
you know what I mean. And it's a lot of
the same old stuff. And it really, you know, it
really bothered me to see him in those you know,

(31:25):
under those circumstances, because the father who I have in
my mind, you know, and my experiences through life, I mean,
he's always been, you know, a provider. You know, a
lot of people talk about being raised by a single
parent mom. I was raised by a single parent dad
for a long time until he remarried. And with that
being said, like I said, I watched my daddy raise

(31:46):
you know, eight.

Speaker 6 (31:47):
Children of his own, you know, under one roof.

Speaker 7 (31:50):
Although he had gone through five different marriages, his children
were never separated from one another.

Speaker 6 (31:56):
My mother raised all of his kids.

Speaker 7 (31:59):
He he reared them, you know, as a father, gave
them discipline, bought cars, uh paid for school and paid
for clothing, paid rent well housing, you know, just all
the things you know that when we think about a
good dad, and to see him in this state moved
me and Fox to the degree of saying, like, you
know what, I'm checking him out of here. It was

(32:21):
against everything that my siblings you know, had really put
in place and were hopeful for. But like I said,
he was my dad, you know, and the father that
I know may not necessarily be the father that my
siblings know, because I experienced my dad during the time,
you know, when he was a different dad, you know,
much in the same way that my oldest child experienced

(32:43):
me as a different father. He experienced the he experienced
Rod pre prison. You know, I asked three kids, they
experienced the dad, you know, the transformed dad or the
newly u refine, refined father version of the right, So
you know that makes a big difference. But to your point, yes,

(33:04):
we did have some conversations. The problem was I just
hate that we didn't have them earlier because we were
having conversations at the time that he was going through
a mental deterioration stage. And I just don't believe that
the communications that we had with one another whereas of
the communication a quality of a communication as we could
have had had either one of us thought to ignite

(33:27):
that relationship earlier. So for the military, my dad and
I had a strained relationship. It was one of the
reasons that I left and went to the military.

Speaker 6 (33:36):
Let's out of high school.

Speaker 7 (33:38):
And it was the quickest way that I figured that
I could care for myself roof over my head and food, travel,
be grown, and you know, kind of live on my
own terms absent my father was to join the military,
and I did so, and shit, to this day, I
since that day, I never.

Speaker 6 (33:56):
Went back home. After that.

Speaker 7 (33:58):
Yeah, from eighteen to now be fifty five, I've never
gone back home. But it was because of the fact
that there was a strained relationship, like I said, between
my father and I up until I finally went to
prison and realized that he was more valuable to me
than I had you know, felt, you know, prior to that,
and so I started to seek to build a relationship

(34:18):
with him. But like it, like in most situations, you know,
it's it's too late. Sometimes that's when we think that,
you know, kind of make up for lost time.

Speaker 2 (34:30):
Yeah, how did this affect your relationships with your siblings?

Speaker 5 (34:34):
Ooh girl, which ones he is a mine?

Speaker 3 (34:39):
Yeah?

Speaker 8 (34:42):
Oh man, you know, I know for me, it's more
of a thing because I'm fifty five and my oldest
brother is like eighty eighty one.

Speaker 4 (34:53):
Oh wow.

Speaker 7 (34:54):
So my closest sibling to me and age is my
sister and my youngest sister, but she is like seven
and a half years my senior. That being said, like
I said, they grew up with a different father than
the one that I know.

Speaker 6 (35:09):
So there are moments and times where they want to.

Speaker 7 (35:12):
Talk about my dad in ways that don't reflect the
dad that I know, and I find myself taken up
for him in those moments.

Speaker 6 (35:19):
You know, you know, no, that's that's not how that worked.
You know.

Speaker 7 (35:22):
Even my brother in law, you know, me and him
bump heads a little bit, you know, in terms of,
you know, how he likes to talk about my dad
in ways that are not reflective.

Speaker 6 (35:31):
Of who my dad is.

Speaker 7 (35:32):
You know, he has this one thing that he's been
holding onto, seemed like about him.

Speaker 6 (35:37):
My dad having.

Speaker 7 (35:40):
Had his child, had his oldest son, my brother in
law and my sister's oldest son, and they brought the child,
my nephew, to our home.

Speaker 6 (35:48):
And my dad cut his hair, and he had his
hair that was all over his head and all of that.
And to this day that had to be what fifty
years ago. Down brother in law is still about the
fact that my daddy cut his head like nigga he
was supposed to cut looking Did you not see how
he was looking looking like this? They need discipline, nobody

(36:10):
needs so.

Speaker 5 (36:13):
That our relationship with our siblings, To answer your question,
has really.

Speaker 4 (36:22):
Been a unique one.

Speaker 5 (36:23):
When you when you bring that kind of embarrassment on
your family, it is hard for you to conceive. I
came from a family of educators. Nobody in my family
had gone to prison. Rob came from a family of
military servicemen and women, and you know, the same thing
held true. So this atrocity that we committed, this sin
against our family's name, it was a lot to take on,

(36:47):
you know, and it still is a lot of healing.
I think that is in the process of being done.
But you just continue to be a demonstration of what
you believe and knowing who you are, and then you know,
love heals all things in time.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
Right right, I know they'd be with y'all now because
y'all live now.

Speaker 7 (37:07):
So I'm home six years now, and I still have
one of my what was one of my close siblings,
because she raised me after my after my mom transition
my mom when I was five, and as a result,
ended up staying with most of my siblings off and
on at some point in time through you know, probably

(37:28):
from age five to maybe age nine, before I re
before I moved back in with my dad full time.
But that being said, she was like a maternal.

Speaker 6 (37:41):
Person to me. She wasn't just my sister, she was
my mother, right, that.

Speaker 7 (37:46):
Being said, when I came home, you know, she and
I have never we hadn't seen each other yet. You know,
to this day, she still has some I guess some
un dealt with issues.

Speaker 6 (37:56):
Or resolve or whatever as a result.

Speaker 7 (37:59):
And I made, you know that that I made about
my life that didn't necessarily impact her in any kind
of way, so that I could.

Speaker 6 (38:05):
See, you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (38:06):
Wow.

Speaker 7 (38:07):
But at the same time, like I said, she is
still holding on to a stance, you know, of keeping
separation and distance you know between us.

Speaker 6 (38:18):
Now, we've communicated a few times.

Speaker 7 (38:20):
She wrote me, maybe this long letter about three maybe
three four years ago.

Speaker 6 (38:25):
She wrote me this really long letter.

Speaker 7 (38:27):
And you know, I've read the letter and ultimately ended
up writing a letter back to her. But like I
so doing, I realized, you know, in that moment, or
it reaffirmed to me in that moment that we still
have some undealt with issues as it relates to our
relationship to one another. So it's been, as fox May mentioned,

(38:48):
it has been quite the challenge.

Speaker 3 (38:50):
That's kind of hurtful. I would, I would definitely feel
a way about that. Like, girl, come on now, listen.

Speaker 5 (38:56):
You do not know what other people are going through.
So yeah, how to do is not judged. But what
you do is you say, well, that's on you, that's
not you know. One of the things that I admired
so much about Rob when he first came home, he
called all his siblings. Now, keep in mind, in the
twenty one years he had been gone his siblings would
three of three of the eight had visited him over

(39:18):
the twenty one.

Speaker 7 (39:19):
Years, and those and those three only one of them
visited more than once.

Speaker 5 (39:25):
And of that time frame that was at the very
onset of his incarceration.

Speaker 4 (39:30):
I'm talking about, like and I was in the first
five years.

Speaker 7 (39:33):
And that was a sister that visited me because her
nephew was also my fall partner.

Speaker 6 (39:39):
Right, he was really coming to.

Speaker 3 (39:40):
See him see her son.

Speaker 6 (39:42):
Right, But you know, since I'm here, I might as
well see see both of.

Speaker 5 (39:46):
Y'all, Right, but this man right here, he called every
last one of his siblings to say I'm home. I
love you, and you know this is my number. Just
wanted to make sure you have it in case you
want to reach out to me.

Speaker 4 (39:59):
That was you know, he could have come home.

Speaker 5 (40:01):
And like they ain't do nothing for me from them,
you know, they didn't send me nothing, They didn't come
see about me.

Speaker 4 (40:06):
How could you not come see about me?

Speaker 5 (40:08):
And I'm the baby boy, I'm the baby brother, and
nobody saw about me. But he let all of that
go and pick the phone, call every last one of
his siblings. And I was just like what a man.

Speaker 7 (40:19):
Would when we were on tour and we landed in
their city, I would call and say, I'm in your city.
We were speaking at you know, this university, was you know,
a film interview or whatever.

Speaker 6 (40:29):
You know, in the event that.

Speaker 7 (40:30):
You know that you couldn't make it to where I was,
you know, I'm yet a little closer to you.

Speaker 6 (40:35):
Right right and gola. But I got out not only
out of a gol. I'm in San Antonio.

Speaker 7 (40:42):
I'm in Texas and wherever you at right so if
you want to come see me, you know I'm here.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
But I always felt like you had a calm and
graceful spirit about yourself. Like obviously there is a part
in the book The Big Too Later where you your
energy and your spirit kind of shifted for obvious reasons.
But I always feel like you was kind of like
level headed through everything.

Speaker 6 (41:08):
Always trying to manage maintain a certain level of come.

Speaker 7 (41:12):
And it takes it takes that level of come to
be able to handle fireball like Fox.

Speaker 6 (41:17):
You know, yeah, zero to one hundred.

Speaker 2 (41:20):
You know what I'm saying, Now, what changes would you
like to see in the criminal justice system to prevent
excessive sentences? Because you was a first time offender, but
you were sentenced to sixty years in prison without parole,

(41:43):
probation or anything.

Speaker 7 (41:44):
That's right, So me as you mentioned, and then my
nephew is the same. First the sentence to forty five years. Fox,
the first offender sentenced to nineteen years.

Speaker 6 (41:55):
It's crazy, like you said, it was, it was, it was.
It was a thing, you.

Speaker 5 (41:59):
Know, but still a thing more common than not. And
that's what we discovered, you know, as going into the system.
It's just that what happened to us, it was more
common than it was uncommon.

Speaker 4 (42:11):
And that was what was really painstaking.

Speaker 7 (42:14):
And what is most common I think for us in
American society is slavery. And if it's the one thing
that I would be hopeful for that would change about
the criminal justice system, is that we would remove the
exception clause out of the thirteenth Amendment. I'm not saying
do away with jails, because I spent time with people
in jail for more than two decades and I know
that that is a place that.

Speaker 6 (42:34):
Sometimes we need to be right.

Speaker 7 (42:36):
You know, I would be the last person to be
on a bullhorn somewhere time I let them all go,
you know, some that need to hold, They need to
bake a little longer.

Speaker 6 (42:46):
You know.

Speaker 7 (42:47):
But at the same time, I'm saying that I don't
think that slavery should be the motivation. Yes, separation, isolation,
those types of things. Yes, I believe in those things.
I believe in sanctions for wrongdoing. I believe in penalty,
you know, for errors. But at the same time, like
I said, I don't believe that you have to enslave
a man or woman as a response to a transgression.

(43:13):
So that one thing that I would be hopeful for
is that if we could take that part out of it.
I think we then take the profit parts out of
prison that motivate the people who runs to want to
run them, because now it's no money left in it.

Speaker 6 (43:27):
And if there's no money left in it, then we
can get to.

Speaker 7 (43:29):
The rehabilitation part of it, which is what it was
supposedly designed for.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
Well, do y'all think that the prison system is capable
of being reformed?

Speaker 4 (43:39):
I think that it's not the prison system.

Speaker 5 (43:41):
It is the heart of the people who created the
prison system, right, It's the heart of the man.

Speaker 4 (43:48):
The system is just a reflection of the people.

Speaker 5 (43:51):
Right. We put the policies in place, so we can't
blame it on the system. It has been perfectly organized
and designed to do exactly what it is doing.

Speaker 7 (44:01):
A hundred years to follow on the follow follow England's
example of you know, of slavery. They over in Europe
they got rid of slavery over a hundred years before
we ever acknowledged that it was wrong here in America,
And even though we acknowledged that it was wrong, a
hundred years later, we're still wrestling with you know, uh,
you know, the clean up part of it.

Speaker 6 (44:23):
You know, we've changed all We've changed the policies.

Speaker 7 (44:26):
We've changed some things around, but at the same time,
we have not changed our heart, you know, and how
we feel about the institution of slavery. But yes, I
do believe that that all things are possible. Uh, it
just takes a little time. And you know, I'm just
kind of noticing, you know, just looking around, but just
you know, when it comes down to it, I just

(44:46):
think that, you know, we have to get to a place, uh,
as a society that we under you know, that we
start moving away, you know, from our from our our
insatiable appetite that we seem to have for the institution
of right.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
But I love the fact that y'all in y'all book,
y'all mentioned that a white man did the exact same
thing and he got three years. So why is it
that a black man you should get sixty years while
our white comparks get less than what we have and
he's able to go back into the world and try again.

Speaker 5 (45:17):
And so for me, I think the one thing that
I would like to see change, aside from the thirteenth
Amendment being amended, is federal sentencing guidelines.

Speaker 4 (45:27):
Right, they have federal sentencing guidelines.

Speaker 5 (45:30):
You do this, you get a point for this, you
get a point deductive for this, this, that, and the other.

Speaker 4 (45:33):
But there is structure to how.

Speaker 5 (45:35):
They are sentenced, and here in Louisiana in particular, that
operates on the Napoleonic Code.

Speaker 4 (45:41):
They have no guidelines, they do they feel.

Speaker 5 (45:44):
So if you come into court today in LSU or
the Saints of Blass, they actually did a research to
show that judges in particular imbat and wounds were giving
people a heavier sentences when whenever LSU didn't win a game.

Speaker 4 (45:59):
You know, So those types of I think.

Speaker 5 (46:02):
It's those types of experiences that we need to get
some eyes and ears off.

Speaker 4 (46:08):
But one of the.

Speaker 5 (46:08):
Things we've got to do is we got to understand
it as far as being black people ourselves. Louisiana have
black judges than any other place in the United States,
but yet we have the prison population in the whole world.
So people that are in power are making the same
decisions to be harsher on us or as harsh as

(46:30):
their counterparts.

Speaker 4 (46:32):
Then what do you'll be.

Speaker 5 (46:34):
So surprised that it is actually black people that will
be the first to say, oh, lock that nigga up.

Speaker 3 (46:40):
Yeah, yeah, damn huh So why incarcerated. Where were someone?

Speaker 2 (46:46):
Did I ever feel like less than human? Because I know,
miss Fox, before you went to jail, you gave birth
to your twins.

Speaker 4 (46:52):
Girl, I did. I did.

Speaker 7 (46:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (46:55):
That was probably one of the most painstaking things for me.
I used to lay in my bed and you can't
cry when you locked up.

Speaker 4 (47:02):
If you cry, they see some.

Speaker 5 (47:04):
Type of emotional weakness, they will put you in lockdown
and on suicide watcher and SOD salitary confinement. And so
I would get under my covers at night and I
would just cry my heart out because I missed my
and I knew that I had forfeited on my responsibility
as their mother, that my mother was having to take

(47:25):
care of my children because of choices that I made.
One of the things I take my pride in is
being a good mother. I brought forth that life, and
it is my responsibility to protect.

Speaker 4 (47:36):
It, to nurture it, to guide it.

Speaker 5 (47:38):
And here I was, with my own free will, I
had removed myself from my children. And so that is
to me, just one of the most heinous things that
you can do to babies, you know, mother or father,
And so it was really difficult for me. That was
the most difficult part about my whole experience was that

(47:58):
I had removed myself from the care of my children.

Speaker 6 (48:02):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (48:03):
And what about you, mister.

Speaker 7 (48:04):
Rob Prison is definitely ah inhumane uh place, but at
me personally, probably the very first night that I arrived
into the prison at Angola State Penitentiary, that is, I
believe that the spirit of our ancestors was all up

(48:26):
on me because it was in those moments that I
really tapped in, uh you know, to the people that
were able to come across those waters e ses nasty,
dirty or whatever, but still had their heads held high,
still had to show and roll back.

Speaker 6 (48:43):
Still.

Speaker 7 (48:43):
Remember that where I came from, I was a king.
Where I came from, I was a queen. Where I
came from, I was human. Where I came from, I
was hold. Where I came from, I was God fearing.
I was all the things. So when I came to slavery,
or when I came to Angola State Penitentiary, it was
just some things that I was not willing to forfeit.
I realized that there was some things that were contraband

(49:03):
that I couldn't have, that I couldn't underwalk with me.
But my dignity, my pride, and my self respect. I
took that with me everywhere I went inside of the prison.
So no matter who I was talking to, who I
dealt with, I dealt with them. I dealt with them
all of those things. I led with all of those
things because I knew that that place was designed to

(49:24):
break me. It was just break my family. So that
was the indoctrination of the programming that we did with
our kids through the power of truth, letting them know
that this is your reality.

Speaker 6 (49:36):
We are an incarcerated family, you know, by.

Speaker 7 (49:39):
By by than others or whatever. So don't you let
no kids at school will be shitting on you about nothing,
feel bad about nothing.

Speaker 6 (49:49):
You know this, that or the other.

Speaker 7 (49:50):
You get in the class and you perform, and you
perform better than others in the class. So it was
just that way that we kind of approached this whole situation.

Speaker 5 (50:00):
Said Best in Time movie, success is the best revenge.

Speaker 4 (50:04):
It is the best revenge.

Speaker 3 (50:06):
That's a fact.

Speaker 5 (50:07):
When people intentionally make it so that you can succeed,
and you succeed anyhow. That's what I love about black people.

Speaker 4 (50:13):
We succeed no matter what.

Speaker 7 (50:16):
So when you see me in the film of Time
movie streaming live on Amazon Prime Video. Yes, me walk
out of the prison. You see me walk out of
the prison. Would have never give up T shirt on.
It wasn't gave me that T shirt. It was because
the prison was trying to pass on that kind of
messaging for people on the outside. It was because while
I was in graphic Arts, I made that shirt for myself,

(50:37):
put it up for myself, and knew that on the
day that I walked out of there, it was going
to be the It was going to be the thing
that I wore exiting in this prison, because it was
going to say to the rest.

Speaker 6 (50:47):
Of the world that I never gave up while I
was in here.

Speaker 2 (50:51):
Listen, I know they missed you at that prison because
you had them busy. I mean, you did a lot
of great things for them, And I think that's the
reason why prison when people get out of prison, and
the percentages of them going back is so high because
you're not offering them any twos or resources for them
to get back into the society. And I think that
what you was doing was really amazing, and you was

(51:13):
also treating them as people like regardless of what they did.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
People should be treated as such that's right.

Speaker 7 (51:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we had a movement going on in prison.

Speaker 6 (51:22):
Uh it was. It was a love movement. It got
to a point where when up kids would come visit.

Speaker 7 (51:28):
You know, I ain't never heard so many people murders
kill us, rapists in the whole nine yards. Every time
that we would exit, we would leave or whatever. It
was like, Man, I love you, bro, I love y'all, Fox,
I love y'all. You know those words, you know, just
not words that you hear in prison. But I would
have to say that during my tenure of my time there,

(51:49):
that men had found their way to that to that word.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
And then you also kind of softened them up because
you also mentioned how you were starting to notice that
you were starting to become hard because of prison as well.
So did you ever struggle with feelings of bitterness knowing
that your wife was free while you were still incarcerated.

Speaker 7 (52:05):
No, My bitterness at the highest level was probably with God.
You know, I really felt like, you know, if God
is all these things or whatever, how and why is
it that I'm being left to experience this? You know,
I was just like Jesus was on the cross. You
know what I'm saying. You know, God, why is down
forsaking me? You know, the way that you can move
this bitter cup and let somebody else drink from it.

Speaker 6 (52:28):
You know, you have no qualms with me, but surely
I shouldn't have to drink the vinegar, right right.

Speaker 7 (52:34):
But it was just one of those moments for me,
you know that I felt like, you know, my resentment
was more so there than it was.

Speaker 6 (52:44):
You know, with any one individual.

Speaker 7 (52:46):
You know, I blame the judge, I blame the DA
you know, I could blame a whole lot of people.
But it was in those moments that when I wrestled
with God, God gave it back to me and say, Nigga,
you ain't got nobody, blame it yourself. And when I
realise that I was to blame because it was my choice,
it was my free will. It was in that moment
that I really started to be able to see myself
bigger than the prison, because I knew that I was
here on mission, and so I was gonna be here

(53:07):
until my mission was over.

Speaker 6 (53:09):
But I die here.

Speaker 3 (53:11):
I know you probably like, come on, God, I got
these niggas and hair sing and kumbay y'all like.

Speaker 6 (53:16):
Me?

Speaker 2 (53:16):
Ouh, God, Like, come on Now, I got the killers
in here saying they love each other and shit, yeah yeah,
So miss Fox, what were those moments that? What was
those moments that when you struggle with hope and how
did you find your way back to it? Because you
was going hard. I was like, nah, this is what
I'm talking about, Like you really was riding hard from

(53:37):
him for twenty one years. Like I was like, it
really made me just so proud to be a reflection
of you as a black woman. But like everything that
you stood for, like you figure it out, Like you
were changing tires, you was selling card. I was like, y'all,
you was going to different schools. You were selling food
and you can't cook like you was like, not no games?

Speaker 6 (54:04):
You know?

Speaker 4 (54:05):
For me, it was one.

Speaker 5 (54:06):
I think this is where most people don't really see
the bigger picture is I wasn't just doing it for rob.

Speaker 4 (54:12):
Your family family was on the line here.

Speaker 5 (54:16):
My six sons deserved an opportunity to grow up with
their father. Nothing that we had done was heinous enough
to remove him for his lifetime, and so I was
not going to allow the state of Louisiana to keep him.
So that was what I had my eyes set on it.
I mean my blinders, nothing else matter, you wassion, that's

(54:38):
the only way you can listen. One time, Rob put
it as clear as I could get it. One time
he says, we are taking on what'd you say, baby,
a bout a billionaire? What was Louisiana's budget at the time.
So when you are fighting a state case, you are
literally fighting the state. So like we are, it, says

(54:58):
Robert Richardson, versus the state of Louisiana. The state of
Louisiana got a whole twenty eight billion dollar budget, So
we are on the whole state of our life and liberty.
So when you are really keenly focused on something, you know,
David and Goliath, it's the same measure. You know, you
can't be as scared of it, right, Yeah's got to
deal with it and understand that whatever you need, God

(55:21):
is gonna give it to you in that moment. So
for me, for our family, never once did we ever
believe that Rob would die there. Never did we ever
believe that he was not coming home. So every year
we had a ritual at the beginning of the year,
We'll be like, Okay, this is the one right here.

Speaker 4 (55:37):
I know we thought it was last year, but last here,
so now it's gonna be this year. So all right, y'all,
let's get out.

Speaker 5 (55:44):
I mean to get yourself all hoped up all again
after you've just been crushed by the end of the year.
That what you said you were going to do last year,
you didn't pull off. And to repeat that for twenty years,
that's another level of tapping into your high power. But
what it shows us is that the race may not
be for the swift, but those who endure to the end.

(56:06):
And so I look back over you know where I
could have left, But then just look at how if
I wouldn't you tried to leave?

Speaker 3 (56:13):
I did, right, I'm like, girl, what are you doing?

Speaker 2 (56:20):
Like, come on, you know he's stressed out in there.
I was like, you got some nerve.

Speaker 4 (56:30):
I tread.

Speaker 5 (56:34):
This time and stilled down there at the penitentiary and
trying to st and get him home.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
You know he was going to marriage counselor. I was like, no,
we're not doing this. Get back with your man. So
walk us through the process of leading up to your release.
And how did you know that your time was coming
to an end? And do you miss him? I know
you don't miss prison. But do you miss the relationships
you made?

Speaker 6 (57:00):
I do.

Speaker 7 (57:00):
I do miss them up tremendously, you know, because when
you think about spending that much time with a group
of people or any number of people, I've spent more
time with people in prison than I've spent with people
that I actually share the same bank with. You know,
you've been through hard times, and you know we've been
through good times. You know, in the whole nine yards
inside of inside of prison. Uh, you know, you see

(57:22):
people at their lowest moment.

Speaker 6 (57:24):
Uh.

Speaker 7 (57:24):
And it's in the lowest moment that you really see
the core of who the person is.

Speaker 6 (57:29):
So I know it's like I said, I got to
know a whole lot of people at a different level.

Speaker 7 (57:36):
The way that I felt leading up to this point,
because like I said, it has been a ongoing, arduous journey,
you know, to to our ultimate release from from prison walls.

Speaker 6 (57:47):
But it was.

Speaker 7 (57:48):
Maybe about a year prior to me going up on
the parting board uh on freedom. One of our twin
boys was out one night at a at an engagement
at one of the local cop and they had a
speaker there.

Speaker 6 (58:02):
Uh.

Speaker 7 (58:03):
The speaker was was Frank Lunz, and uh, Frank Lunz
is a Republican poster, or at least he was then
a Republican poster. And my son got up and asked
him a question in the midst of it all, and
then so doing, Uh, he said, hey kid, he said,
don't go nowhere.

Speaker 6 (58:18):
He said, I'm gonna I'm gonna change your life.

Speaker 7 (58:20):
And so my son left and he went out, and
he was because he was on on mission for his
mom to go some tires changed that you was.

Speaker 6 (58:28):
One of one of the.

Speaker 7 (58:30):
Cars that they had for the car lot, and so
he went out, and then after he told his mom,
his mom was like, well, if you don't get.

Speaker 6 (58:36):
Your butt back in there, and uh, what are you doing?
He went back in and so doing.

Speaker 7 (58:41):
The guy ultimately ended up asking Freedom whether or not
he would join him for I think a cup of
coffee or something. The next morning, after he found out
Freedom's age, he invited his mom to join him in
that uh in that setting, and he ended up having
a conversation with Freedom. Uh. Fox had already prepped him
before they went into the meeting, and after they got there,

(59:01):
the guy asked the ultimate question, Freedom, what is it?
What is it that I can do to help you?
And freedom. Had a laundry list of things that he wanted.
It was maybe three, maybe four things that was on
his lift on this. At the top of his list
was was helped with getting his father out of prison,
whether it was through a measure of law that we
had been pushing through the legislature.

Speaker 6 (59:23):
Or or you know, some other measure that we were
working on.

Speaker 7 (59:27):
But then he went on to say that I'm asking
you for this, not necessarily for myself, but for my brother,
because I believe that he has the right to.

Speaker 6 (59:35):
Grow up with our father and he deserved the thing
that we had been denied.

Speaker 7 (59:41):
Frank, true to his word, spoke to our governor, and
the governor had agreed to uh sign my partner in
the event that I passed the partner board, you know
the interview with the with the partner Board. And so
a year before I ever went up on the partner board,
already knew that had the governor's signature, it'd be like

(01:00:02):
going up for something and you already know you got
President Trump's commitment to sign once you go through whatever
the preliminaries are in order to get it to his desk.
So I knew a year a year out, so I
started building. Uh the thing that I started building was
my last marathon. The last marathon was that it was

(01:00:24):
the theme of it was finished strong. So that last
marathon that we'd done that we did in the prison
was the theme of it was to finish strong. And
I gave a speech out on the yard to all
of the brothers that were out there. We had maybe
about five six hundred brothers that came out on the
yard in order to you.

Speaker 3 (01:00:44):
Know, bel ing right.

Speaker 7 (01:00:50):
You jail.

Speaker 6 (01:00:52):
So it was just one of those moments.

Speaker 7 (01:00:54):
I went before the board and then so doing I
got the favorable recommendation. It didn't come with ease, but
I did get the favorable recommendation. And no sooner than
I walked out of the hearing, word had already spread
down the walk that I had that I had made it.
Everybody was waiting to see if I was gonna make
it or not, because this wasn't just my partner hearing.

Speaker 6 (01:01:14):
This was the partner hearing for everybody in the prison.

Speaker 4 (01:01:16):
Uh.

Speaker 7 (01:01:17):
You know, partners had really become a thing of the past,
you know, following you know the the you know, just
governors moving away from using that power. You know, it
just really became a thing that was, you know, hardly
see and for me to make it gave other men
hope as well, so them, the security officers, everybody was
high five. I mean when I came back down and uh,

(01:01:39):
but it was a bittersweet moment ultimately when I walked
out of the prison that day, because I knew that
I was leaving behind a lot of men that were
equally deserving of this opportunity that I was now getting.

Speaker 6 (01:01:51):
So the uh.

Speaker 7 (01:01:52):
In our second film, I mentioned a thing called sur
Barber's guilt and real emotion, you know, for people that
had the one gone away to war. That's usually how
we associated but it's also associated with men or women
who have experienced low times together and you know, and
kind of lived through it and then you escape or
you've managed to get away from it, and if everybody

(01:02:15):
didn't come with, you can kind of feel away about
the people that were left behind. So that's how we
ended up starting our organization PDM NOLA, which is an
initiative that we started shortly after I came out of prison.
We turned it into a nonprofit. The idea we turned
into a nonprofit and it's where we're legal awareness as
the best form of defense to people who are justice involved.

Speaker 6 (01:02:38):
And we've been doing the work now for about six years,
and it's amazing.

Speaker 7 (01:02:42):
We judge the success of the work that we do
by the amount of time that we saved someone to
posted the amount of time that they've been sanctioned to serve.
And to this date, we've saved well over thirty five
one hundred years of people doing time here in our
stick over, and because we are one of forty organizations
that exist around the country exercising this model, we've saved

(01:03:03):
more than twenty five thousand years of people doing time
throughout the country.

Speaker 4 (01:03:09):
So it's amazing.

Speaker 7 (01:03:11):
It's our way of giving back to the people that
are you know that we left behind.

Speaker 6 (01:03:16):
So many of the people that are left behind crazy.

Speaker 7 (01:03:18):
Enough that had life sentences I get to see because
that law, that effort has brought a lot of them home.
And so we were just at a ball the other
night and they had this one brother that used to
work the concessions prison together, had an astronomical amount of time.
But every time that I see him it warms my

(01:03:39):
heart because I'm like, man, we was in there together.
So I see them all, you know, all the time
moving about. I'm like, man, we made.

Speaker 4 (01:03:47):
It, so you have to come down and celebrate us
in the tennis. Yeah, no, I am.

Speaker 3 (01:03:53):
I am definitely.

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
I was going to sit off the screen like I
said on the screen too when youth the dating stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
Let me know and I fly down. Please, I'm serious.

Speaker 4 (01:04:00):
Yeah, I'm serious too.

Speaker 5 (01:04:02):
So make sure I got your I think it may
be in the email, but make sure I got your
contact information so I can keep you posting.

Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
Yeah, I can't get it to you over the air
because these niggas crazy. Okay, we almost finished, right when
I trust her, I don't trust these niggas my audience,
but you know that's some weird niggas listening. Okay, we
almost finished, but I'm really enjoying your conversation. How do
you think enduring such extreme challenges has deepened your love

(01:04:29):
for each other?

Speaker 3 (01:04:32):
Because y'all son in love, like I see.

Speaker 5 (01:04:33):
It helping me out like that here. You know, I
think that anytime that you have gone through as much
hardship and overwhelmed in the manner that rib and I have,
which yeah read obstacle that we embraced and overcame, it

(01:04:54):
made us deeper connected in a way that is impermeable.

Speaker 4 (01:05:00):
So it's like you just I don't know. Man.

Speaker 5 (01:05:03):
We think alike, we laugh alike, we other sentences. It's
just I think the biggest thing is is I'm just
glad on this life's journey at this point.

Speaker 4 (01:05:14):
I have not my bank account.

Speaker 5 (01:05:16):
Doesn't reflect a few million dollars, but my journey, my light,
and my love is brighter than most people I know.
And that's because I've had an opportunity on this journey
to know love, to love, and to be loved. And
so that's what I probably would say that I'm most
grateful for is that through all of those hardships, would say, what, don't.

Speaker 4 (01:05:38):
Care you make it stronger, stronger.

Speaker 5 (01:05:40):
It has definitely made our union stronger and have allowed
us to serve as a demonstration of love to so
many other people that you know, this is real.

Speaker 4 (01:05:50):
You just got to commit to it.

Speaker 5 (01:05:52):
I mean, rocket science is not easy, but it is
damn sure worth it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:57):
Yeah, yeah, okay, what about you?

Speaker 6 (01:06:05):
I would have to say much of the same.

Speaker 7 (01:06:07):
You know, I do believe that the experiences definitely made
us made us stronger. We've you know, been faced with
some you know, crazy challenges and when you know, again,
like you said, you consider that, you know, well over
sixty percent of all marriages and in divorce within three
to five years, and they.

Speaker 6 (01:06:25):
Do so for you know, a number of reasons.

Speaker 7 (01:06:29):
Knows, separation through life sentences would be probably good cause
by most people, you know, to be a reason that
you would say, you know what, maybe this ain't right,
We might need to go on and divorce.

Speaker 6 (01:06:40):
But the fact that we chose each other every day,
every day to you know, to to move forward.

Speaker 7 (01:06:46):
Through life within, like I said, has made us, has
made us strong, stronger than probably either of us could
have ever imagined. And so it's just again, like Fox
made mentioned, it's really rewarding, uh to be able to
serve as a demonstration, uh to to so many other people,

(01:07:09):
you know, to the where that when they say that
thing about your relationship goals.

Speaker 5 (01:07:14):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (01:07:15):
Funny that when our.

Speaker 7 (01:07:16):
Film first came out, they had a number of celebrities
that invited us out to l A to come kick
it with them, and Kenya Barris was one such a
celebt uh that you know, he was so motivated by
love that it made him want to you know, be
in love and uh love and love deeper you know

(01:07:37):
he wasn't you know, there were so many others that
you know, basically said similar and uh like I said,
to see that your love has impacted and that was
just the love that they witnessed on the screen that
wasn't necessarily knowing us on a data right, you know,
butabariously they realized that, man, y'all make.

Speaker 6 (01:07:55):
Me want to love.

Speaker 5 (01:07:57):
Yeah, yes, man, okay, A man can't wait to get
you that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:04):
I know that I know over this line you can
find out right right girl, you know I've been digging
you right right. So, being that you've been home for
six years now going on seven, what was the hardest
part about coming back home?

Speaker 7 (01:08:22):
Probably the hardest part of coming back home was the
culture shock. Yeah, you know, when I left prison, you know,
everybody was wearing baggy clothes and you know, doing certain
kind of way.

Speaker 6 (01:08:32):
You know.

Speaker 7 (01:08:32):
Yeah, in the nineties, you know, the golden era of
hip hop.

Speaker 6 (01:08:35):
You know, we were kind of doing things a certain
kind of way.

Speaker 7 (01:08:38):
And when I came home, it's like all those things
were not happening anymore. So moment you know that I
had to go through you know, most of the women
that I saw were naked.

Speaker 3 (01:08:45):
Or you know, halving it.

Speaker 6 (01:08:48):
I know, well, I'm saying that's when I came home
to right.

Speaker 7 (01:08:51):
Oh yeah, you know, women were wearing baggy clothes, they
were more covered, and you know, men were less revealing,
and uh, you know, just all the things, but just
many of those culture shocks that came on to when
I left prison.

Speaker 6 (01:09:05):
They didn't used to pump your own gas before when
I went to prison.

Speaker 7 (01:09:09):
You got to keep in mind, now, when I went
to prison, I went to prison two years on the
other side of windows ninety five. So the time I
had on my space was a thing. It was no
longer a thing, you know, by the time when I
came home. So you know, it's just like all the
technological advances that happened.

Speaker 6 (01:09:29):
Everybody needed and depended on a cell phone.

Speaker 7 (01:09:32):
You know, I had what twenty thirty forty fifty numbers
committed to memory.

Speaker 6 (01:09:37):
People out here, you lose your phone, you.

Speaker 7 (01:09:38):
Can't contact you know what I'm saying, because all your phones,
all your numbers are in your contact list, and you know,
so those things were like challenges to me, you know,
just getting past the tech curve. And when you're in prison,
you know, tech is a it's a security risk, you
know in ways. So as a result of it, they

(01:09:59):
don't prepare hear you, you know, to be integrate to
come back. So it kind of again mirrors what we slavery.
Most slaves were released from prison, but I mean released
from slavery. But in so uh and in so doing,
they were not educated in the ways of the community.

Speaker 6 (01:10:19):
Outside of slavery. So they were ignorant many of the
themes outside of.

Speaker 3 (01:10:26):
Here's the reason why they go back exactly.

Speaker 7 (01:10:28):
You know. With that being said, when I came home,
I was illiterate to a lot of the technology and
the ways that business and things are conducted. And you know,
I had to get a crash course. Thanks God for
my youngest son, because uh, he kind of gave me
a whole lot of game and you know, gave.

Speaker 6 (01:10:45):
Me something quick.

Speaker 3 (01:10:49):
Somebody speaking French in the household.

Speaker 5 (01:10:52):
By the time little Rod towed him how to send
emojis in the oldest time, how to send memes, he
was all in need.

Speaker 3 (01:10:58):
It's around right, he takes no time.

Speaker 5 (01:11:03):
But asad from that, you know, even our relationship was challenging.
When Rob came home, he and we talk about this
in the new documentary. When he came home. He wanted space,
and when he came home, I wanted somebody.

Speaker 4 (01:11:17):
To hold me. I had been alone for twenty one years,
you know.

Speaker 5 (01:11:21):
I was looking forward to the moment when we would
hang out in the shower.

Speaker 3 (01:11:25):
And yeah, always have the intimacy.

Speaker 4 (01:11:28):
And all of the things.

Speaker 5 (01:11:29):
And he's like, whoa hold up, I've been showering with
one hundred, one hundred men in my dorm. I've been
they had thrown with sharing five toilets with one hundred
men and five face bowls.

Speaker 4 (01:11:40):
I want some one. Yeah, I want some face you know,
and what wait, hold of This is not what I was,
you know, thinking. So we had to work through that.

Speaker 6 (01:11:49):
You know.

Speaker 5 (01:11:49):
It's like we had been married for over twenty one
years when he came home, but you know, we hadn't
been together as a husband and wife. So we're trying
to even figure out how many times do married couples
have sex?

Speaker 2 (01:12:00):
Yeah, well, listen to your documentary. I'm like, I know
they're not about to have sex on this careen. I
was like, come on, y'all, right, out of my way, baby,
that brother unrestricted in twenty one years? Oh yeah, right,
I need to do is connect Lord.

Speaker 3 (01:12:19):
I'm surprised you didn't get pregnant.

Speaker 2 (01:12:22):
Right, right, Okay, So what's one thing that y'all learned
about yourselves throughout this journey.

Speaker 7 (01:12:33):
I think the biggest thing that I learned about myself
is that my capacity to love continues to grow.

Speaker 3 (01:12:39):
That's a good one.

Speaker 7 (01:12:40):
I really didn't think that that I could love any deeper,
further than you know, than I had. With each passing day,
with each passing year, I come to the realization that
my love, my capacity to love, continues to expand.

Speaker 3 (01:12:56):
Mm hmmm.

Speaker 4 (01:12:58):
I think for me it is nothing impossible.

Speaker 2 (01:13:01):
Facts.

Speaker 5 (01:13:02):
I just nothing is impossible, you know, I did. The
only thing is impossible is if you don't try. But
I believe that all things are possible with love, all things.

Speaker 3 (01:13:14):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:13:14):
When I finished the book and I read our documentary,
the first thing that came to mind is the phrase
my life is not my own. And I feel like
y'all journey embodies that. So do y'all feel like despite
everything that y'all been through, y'all went through it for
others to give them hope.

Speaker 5 (01:13:30):
You know, I can certainly say for sure that God
has used us and turned our message for others and
I'm just hopeful, you know, we're thankful to be here
on your podcast because we get to share with your listeners,
you know, this journey and hopes that their lives will
be changed and they will see that love is something
that is tangible, impossible for all people, but in particular

(01:13:51):
black people, and it's necessary. And so with that being said,
when we meet people whose marriages we've helped, when we
inspire other people to love to heal, yeah, then it
makes it feel like it's all been worth it, that
it's bigger than ribing.

Speaker 6 (01:14:06):
I m hm.

Speaker 2 (01:14:10):
And last, but not least, what does love mean to
you now compared to when you first met?

Speaker 5 (01:14:17):
Love?

Speaker 7 (01:14:18):
For me, when we first met, I think was this warm,
fuzzy kind of feeling that you feel when you always
want a person around.

Speaker 4 (01:14:27):
Uh, you know, you don't.

Speaker 7 (01:14:28):
Really have any clear understandings of it. It's that I
think they have various divisions or degrees of love. You know,
the romantic kind of love that you feel that you
know makes you where you can't stop touching the person
or whatever. You have that that feeling, your type of
love that Philadelphia gets its.

Speaker 6 (01:14:49):
Name from, that brotherly love.

Speaker 7 (01:14:50):
Then you have that he kind of love, which is
a god kind of love, and you know, and so forth.
But I do believe that that Fox and I have
have gone through different degrees of love one another to
the point that you know, I call it an anchor love,
and I call it the deepest mind state.

Speaker 6 (01:15:12):
When you think of love, it's the thing it anchors us.

Speaker 7 (01:15:16):
And I think in the film, well, in the film,
the first film, I closed out by saying that love,
if it could be an acronym, that it would be
life's only valid expression. So they're gone from this warm,
fuzzy thing or whatever that we feel and when we're
having that puppy count of love other thing that you.

Speaker 6 (01:15:34):
Know that it is life's only valid expression.

Speaker 7 (01:15:37):
So that's like a deeper, more committed and assured kind
of love that happens that a lot of us don't
get an opportunity to see because we don't go all
the way.

Speaker 2 (01:15:51):
Yeah, yeah, Well, I really enjoyed that conversation. I'm really
looking forward to build a relationship with y'all because this
was absolutely a treat so and I'm also I'm just
very proud of y'all. Seriously, Yeah, thank you, thank you,
thank you.

Speaker 7 (01:16:05):
Yeah, you get a hard podcast you know, like what
you got to do them, so we like you gotta
be special. Definitely proud of you for what it is
that you've been able to achieve.

Speaker 3 (01:16:17):
Thank you.

Speaker 7 (01:16:19):
Any of the imagination is a milestone. And again, as
you know, we look forward to getting to know you
deeper as well. Yeah, I believe that we too could
learn from you.

Speaker 2 (01:16:32):
Yes, yeah, And I think y'all story is the perfect
example of why we should share our storylines because you
never know how it can be somebody else's lifeline.

Speaker 4 (01:16:40):
Yes, yes, yes, So I.

Speaker 3 (01:16:42):
Really appreciate y'all.

Speaker 2 (01:16:43):
To listeners, if you want to know more about our guests,
want to support their book or their documentary, please make
sure to email me a hello at the PHG podcast
dot com. And until next time, everyone Later.

Speaker 3 (01:16:57):
You ain't gonna says oh, I know.

Speaker 6 (01:16:59):
I know that. Yeah, yeah, love y'all.

Speaker 2 (01:17:13):
The Professional Homegirl Podcast is a production of the Black
Effect Podcast Network. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show,
and you can connect with me on social media at
the PAHG podcast

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Host

Eboné Almon

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