July 27, 2023 • 37 mins
This week we're discussing the secret and the science behind the healing powers of nature. Our generation has become increasingly detached from the outdoors and our wild roots, with over 90% of our days spent indoors or on a screen, often at the expense of our mental wellbeing, sense of self, psychological and spiritual connection with the land and overall physical health. In this episode we explore ideas around nature deficit disorder, recent longitudinal studies on the impacts of green spaces on our mental health and practices such as forest bathing, forest schools, water therapy and what we can learn from the deep connection that Indigenous groups have with the land. We also discuss how we can easily integrate more time outdoors into our daily routine to radically improve our psychological wellbeing. Listen now.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the podcast where we talk through some of the big
life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.
(00:26):
Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners. Wherever
you are in the world, you know the deal. Welcome
back for another episode. Today, we are going to take
a deep look into what psychology has to say about
the healing power of nature. Nature, the outdoors, time spent
by the beach, ingreenery, the forest. They are such an
(00:49):
incredibly profound sense of joy and peace for so many
good reasons. It relieves stress, It allows us to step
away from our monotonous routines. It actively rewires our brain
in such a positive way, and the research and benefits
are honestly endless, and we're going to talk about all
(01:09):
of them because I think it is so profound, and
the impact that nature can have on our psychological well
being does not get the recognition it deserves. However, as
a generation, I think we have become more and more
detached from this natural urge and instinct, from our drive
(01:29):
towards kind of the wilderness. Technology and social media in particular,
consume so much of our time. We are spending more
time indoors than any other generation, most of us living
in huge cities, and we've become very severed from this
innate need. I've even noticed that in my own life.
You know, there are so many days that I just
(01:51):
don't go outdoors, and that makes me feel so stagnant
and unhealthy and just really detached from what I know.
My brain needs this like very deep need, and the
consequences of that are becoming so apparent, not just personally
and anecdotally, but we're seeing increasing problems with attention, overall,
(02:13):
life satisfaction, social skills connection. It's even created these new
terms like nature deficit disorder, showing us that this alienation
from our natural environment is really creating a lot of problems.
So today I want to discuss the studies and the
science behind the healing power of nature and how to
(02:37):
implement that in our lives. We're going to look at
all the evidence, especially from this new discipline of ecopsychology,
but also some of the origins of this understanding, from
the idea of forest bathing in Japan, forest schools in Scandinavia,
and some really amazing techniques and just general philosophies and
(02:57):
understanding from some indigenous cultures in Australia and New Zealand.
What I find particularly fascinating is probably not the word
maybe a little bit disturbing, is that Western psychology in
particular is often really dismissive of how nature can be
integrated into our treatment for mental health symptoms and conditions,
(03:20):
and it just kind of pathologizes us. We're so preoccupied
with finding a label for things and with pharmaceuticals, which
definitely have their place, but I think that we've really
lost touch with that holistic perspective. So I also really
want to kind of explore how we can integrate exposure
(03:41):
to nature into our daily routine, from the big things
to the daily rituals, and the impact that we might
just see on our lifestyle and our emotional and mental
health and sense of fulfillment. It's a huge episode. There
is so much to cover, and some of them my
favorite psychology of the day is coming from this new discipline,
(04:04):
so I really cannot wait to share it. Also, if
you are not yet subscribed to my Patreon, please make
sure to go and follow me over there, you'll get
access to bonus content, new episodes, episode transcripts, studies, a newsletter,
so many good things. So I really appreciate the support
so many of you have already showed me. Without further Ado,
(04:27):
let's discuss the healing power of nature and all of
the science and psychology supporting our need to reconnect. I'm
so excited. I cannot stress this enough. If you're feeling
a bit lost, a bit disconnected from yourself, this is
essential listening. So without further Ado, let's get into it.
(04:54):
I think every single one of us has this intuitive
understand that nature is an incredibly vital ingredient for our wellbeing,
one that we have become very much detached from due
to this increasingly technology based society. Just you know, fifty,
even forty thirty years ago, we lived in a completely
(05:18):
different world in which the outdoors and nature they were
our entertainment. They were a deeply valuable part of our
everyday lives, when our attention was not constantly being pulled
a million different directions by social media and smart watches
and office screens. There's been this massive societal and environmental
(05:40):
pivot that our generation, those in our twenties have experienced
and are continuing to kind of witness. Someone said this
to me the other day, and it kind of like
stopped me because I'd never thought about it. But we
are perhaps the last group of people who experienced at
least some of our childhood or our lives without screens.
(06:02):
We can still remember running down to the local park
after school, riding our bikes around, climbing trees, playing in
the mud, all of these really crucial elements of play
that relied on nature as the stimuli, not something inorganic.
And I think although we've only just started to see
what this shift is doing to young kids and this
(06:25):
new generation, innately we know that time spent outdoors is
never time wasted, and that we feel better when we
experience nature compared to the alternatives of spending hours and
hours scrolling on our phones. That's something that has changed,
and for the first time in humanity's history, we are
(06:47):
spending more time indoors. We have a very limited diversity
of experiences. The other shift that I think is important
here is that we're seeing that by twenty fifty, maybe early,
it's been projected by scientists, by researchers that two thirds
of humanity will be living in either cities or urban areas.
(07:11):
We are becoming more and more severed from those evolutionary roots.
And this has even inspired this new term that I
was speaking about before, nature deficit disorder, the idea, and
it was really only introduced back in two thousand and five,
so less than twenty years ago. It claims that humans
(07:33):
we're spending less time outdoors and this is resulting in
a sense of really deep alienation and a wide range
of behavioral problems, especially amongst children. And I will say
it's not a diagnosable medical condition as of yet, but
there is this expanding body of scientific evidence that suggests
(07:56):
that a nature deficit disorder contributes to to a diminished
use of our senses, attention difficulties, greater problems with emotional regulation,
and also just a lack of natural curiosity. These researchers,
particularly the person who created this time, what they're suggesting
(08:18):
is that this experience, this trend is really weakening our
ecological literacy and that children in this generation we are
caring less and less about the natural world, which is
super problematic when we consider things like climate change, where
we need people to care, We need people to want
(08:40):
to protect these spaces. But these problems are also linked
more broadly to what health experts call an epidemic of inactivity.
Our lives are endoors, they are contained, and we are
very much missing out on how much healing nature can
and provide us. This understanding actually has a lot of
(09:04):
scientific backing, so much so that researchers have created an
entirely new discipline called ecopsychology to examine this very universal experience.
So ecopsychology is interested in understanding how we can increase
the connection between individuals and the natural environment for the
(09:25):
purpose of treating certain mental health conditions or promoting connection,
remedying alienation. Whilst I think typically we see conventional psychology
as being really focused on the connection between humans and
our mind and our behavior, ecopsychology is focused on the
emotional bond and the connection between humans and the earth.
(09:50):
The essential idea is that we have become detached from
our evolutionary roots, and by restoring our connection with our
minds with nature, we can psychologically almost heal some of
the modern day things that are impacting a lot of people.
You know, our external environment becomes a lot more industrialized
(10:12):
and clinical. That's a big concern because our brains are
still attuned to the ways of nature through centuries and
centuries of evolution, and by depriving it of that source
of stimulation and energy, we're kind of limiting what aspects
and areas of our brain that we can use, what
our brain is actually capable of. This idea has several
(10:37):
fundamental principles ecopsychology in general, and I think they're incredibly powerful.
So I'm going to list a few here before we
jump into the actual research, because I actually think a
lot of us innately believe this. So here are some
of the principles. Firstly, there is this synergetic interplay between
(10:57):
the planet, between Earth and our personal well baing the
core of our mind is ecologically conscious. The goal of
ecopsychology is to awaken that inherent sense of environmental reciprocity
that lies between us and the natural environment. And Finally,
the ecological ego matures towards a sense of ethical responsibility
(11:22):
with the planet, and that's something we want to cultivate.
I think it's really interesting, if not quite frustrating. Like
I said, that this discipline doesn't really get the attention
and the love and the credit it deserves. I think
because of this very detached clinical approach to psychology that
has dominated the field for many, many years, we have
(11:43):
become increasingly focused on pharmaceutical interventions and treatment of symptoms
rather than a holistic approach to our emotional and mental wellbeing.
I'm not discrediting that at all. I really hope that
it's not taken out of context. I definitely personally have
benefited and will continue to benefit from medical interventions for
(12:04):
my mental health, but I think our discussions should be
a lot more nuanced and inclusive of different options and
different sources of healing. Luckily for us, more and more
research is being devoted to this, so I want to
cover some of the major studies. One of the biggest
ones was conducted in the UK, and they conducted this
(12:27):
study of around twenty thousand people, and they found that
people who spent two hours a week in green spaces
that could literally just be your local park, they were
substantially more likely to report good health and psychological well
being than those who don't, and the cutoff was literally
(12:47):
two hours. Anything less than that we didn't start to
see the same benefits. Similarly, all these psychiatric unit researchers.
They've been finding that being in nature it has reduced
feelings of isolation, it's promoted a sense of calmness, and
it's even lifted the mood amongst their patients who are
(13:09):
undergoing treatment for various psychiatric disorders. Actually, in one of
the possibly the earliest actually observations on this, this was
like two hundred years ago, back in eighteen twelve, this
physician he worked with mental health patients, and he found
that his patients who had to pay for their treatment
(13:29):
by doing yard work on the hospital grounds, so they
were outside for at least three to four hours, essentially
doing manual labor in nature to pay for their treatment,
they actually recovered faster than the wealthier patients who could
afford the cost of treatment and who kind of just
walked around inside and stayed inside for much of the day.
(13:52):
That really flips what we would typically see. It's also
worth noting this is an observation, this isn't a study,
but it is kind of back to up by more
of those experimental conditions and experimental research that has come
out in recent years. One in twenty nineteen at the
University of Chicago, these two researchers examined the influence of
(14:14):
a local green environments on people in cities and large communities,
large concrete communities, and they found that green spaces near
schools really promote cognitive development in children, even just seeing
greenery they don't even have to be in it promotes
(14:34):
this sense of well being and emotional and cognitive development
that's been backed up. They did this incredibly. I think
it is possibly one of the largest longitudinal studies ever conducted.
These researchers in Denmark. They examined data from more than
nine hundred thousand, yes, close to a million, nine hundred
(14:56):
thousand children born between nineteen eighty five in two thousand
and three, and they found that those kids who lived
in neighborhoods with more green space had a reduced risks
of many psychiatric disorders later in life, including depression, mood disorders, schizophrenia,
eating disorders. I will say one of the things that
(15:18):
really I think conflates with that finding, or maybe is
an extraneous variable, is the influence of wealth. You know,
people who make more money can afford to buy homes
with backyards or in really affluent suburbs where they have
well maintained public parks. And obviously, as we say in psychology,
correlation is not causation, and we are by no means
(15:42):
suggesting that a hike is going to cure someone's major
mood disorder, but it is something to note, and I
think it's part of that larger tapestry of evidence. We've
also seen that people assigned to public housing units in
neighborhood with more green space showed better attentional functioning than
(16:03):
those assigned to units with less access to natural environments,
and just being exposed to nature it really improves things
like our working memory. Whilst exposure to urban environments, particularly
through childhood to adulthood, is linked to attention deficits, maybe
(16:23):
even at the extreme, and this is very much at
the extreme things like ADHD, it may also go way
deeper than that. It just provides a general sense of
well being that also helps to reduce things like crime
and aggression. Back in twenty fifteen, also in the UK,
they're really pushing a lot of this research at the moment.
(16:44):
They conducted a study on two thousand people and they
found that more exposure to the natural environment translated into
more community cohesion and substantially lower crime rates. Once again,
we have to think about the other rbles there, things
like wealth. But all of these findings are just combining
to show that nature is an integral part of our wellbeing,
(17:09):
of our physical health, of our mental health, of our
emotional health, that we don't only neglect, but the environments
that we now live in are neglecting for us. The
reason I wanted to provide so many examples is because
I want to kind of show the diversity of the impacts.
It's not just about our psychological wellbeing, but it's about
(17:31):
sense of community, it's about physical health, it's about loneliness.
The list is like honestly endless. This is just like
a minor cross section of all that is going into
kind of pushing the field of ecopsychology along. However, the
idea that nature has these innate healing properties is by
(17:52):
no means a new one. It has a really rich
and diverse history. It spans across the world Japan and Finland, Australia, Italy,
especially in a lot of indigenous cultures. Perhaps that's another
reason why it's sometimes discredited. Western medicine is very much
(18:13):
plagued by what we would call biological reductionism. It's always
looking for some internal pathological origin of a lot of
our problems rather than looking externally to what's happening in
our environment that might be making us feel this way.
And for many, many years, there has been this amazing
amount of knowledge in a lot of indigenous and non
(18:35):
Western cultures that has been claiming that, that has been
saying that. So what I really want to focus on
next is what are some of these historical and cultural
links that have been made between exposure to nature and
well being. Why is nature so powerful? What is actually
(18:56):
happening in our brains and our bodies to promote these outcomes?
And of course, in this increasingly digitalized world, in this
industrialized world, how do we integrate these practices into our
very busy lives. I know it's very easy for me
to kind of stand up on this podium or my
(19:16):
soapbox and be like, we need to spend more time
in nature. But I know a lot of us are
like that is so unrealistic. So let's talk through how
we can actually do that. It's a lot easier than
we think. So all of that and more in just
a second. One of the best examples of a modern
(19:39):
day in nature therapy or practice is called forest bathing
or shinrin yuruku in Japanese. This idea emerged in Japan
in the early nineteen eighties and the purpose was to
literally take time to bathe in nature. It's not about exercise,
it's not about kind of count your calories or get
(20:02):
fit or hiking or jogging, but connecting with nature through
all of our senses through sight, hearing, taste, touch and smell,
and by doing this kind of opening those pathways back
up to the natural world. It's actually become a vital
part of preventive healthcare in Japan. Some doctors will literally
(20:25):
prescribe forest bathing to burn out office workers, and the
government has actually invested in this. They've done a series
as studies and they found that this practice improved sleep quality, mood,
reduce stress levels. There's a really good book on this
very practice. It's called Forest Bathing, How Trees Can Help
(20:46):
You Find Health and Happiness. A friend gave it to
me last year, maybe a couple of years ago, and
it's really incredible. It's really quite profound seeing how I
guess what we can bring to our lives and how
we can elevate our experiences with nature. There's also this
idea in ancient China of chi which is the vital
(21:09):
connection between humans and the earth, and that connection has
formed a big part of the naturopathy movement in the
nineteenth century. Other countries and cultures have very similar ideas
or practices for promoting a spiritual and psychological reconnection with nature.
(21:30):
In a lot of Scandinavian countries they have these things
called forest schools. In Australia we call them bush schools,
and essentially the premise is that learning should take place
in a natural setting where children are able to explore
and discover, away from screens and away from kind of
some of those traditional learning practices. It's also called woodland
(21:53):
or free range learning, like free range chickens, and the
idea came about in the nineteen nineties amongst this small
group of Danish educators that although their schools may not
have an actual classroom, they could provide a better learning experience.
(22:13):
I think, if you've always been raised in a really
conventional idea of what schooling should be, this may seem
like kind of bizarre, maybe a bit abstract, But I
remember spending so much time in nature. As a child,
me and my sisters and my cousins, we would go
and explore the bush with my granddad and we would
plant flowers and make mud patties and swim in the creek.
(22:37):
I remember those memories so clearly. They're like a massive
part of my identity. But you know what I don't remember.
I do not remember a single thing about my primary
school classroom, not a single thing. I think the only
thing I can remember is like the class pets that
we had, and like standardized testing. I'm not saying that
(22:58):
I didn't learn important things during that time, but a
lot of that could have been elevated, and I probably
would have benefited from a more integrated classroom experience that
combined the outdoors, which luckily I was already getting in
like my leisure time thanks to my parents, but combined
that with some of those wild and natural experiences. And
(23:21):
I feel really bad for kids who don't get that.
I think they really miss out on some of that
natural curiosity. I've also been contemplating this idea a lot
in terms of my future children. Maybe that's an idea
we should do on the show. Like I don't know
what it was, but I entered my like mid twenties
and was like, couldn't stop thinking about children. We need
(23:42):
to talk about that, actually, But sidebar, I've been thinking
a lot in terms of the kids that I want
to raise someday, and I would want my children to
be a little bit wild, to always be a little
bit dirty and a little bit messy. I think there
is so much of this recent science that shows how
valuable those early experiences and that spiritual and psychological connection
(24:04):
with nature, how profound and powerful that could be. And
so when I think about how I would want to
raise perhaps future children, future versions of me, I kind
of reflect on what that says about my priorities right
now and how I can reflect that in my own life.
I will say this idea has existed for a long time,
(24:24):
and a lot of indigenous cultures have known what Western
medicine and psychology is only just figuring out, and they've
known it for thousands and thousands of years. In Australia,
our first nations people specifically Aboriginal and torrestright islander people,
who are the oldest known civilization on Earth. They have
such a deep idea of country and connection to the land,
(24:47):
and I think this connection is difficult for non indigenous
people to grasp something we can learn a lot from
because these groups, these cultures have long known about it
and use the healing properties of nature. There was a
really fascinating article that I read when researching this idea,
and it discusses this concept of barefoot healing or earthing
(25:12):
that allows us to feel present in nature and acknowledge
the interconnectedness between us and kind of every living thing.
And the Maori people of New Zealand, I know that
they also have kind of a similar philosophy and connection
to the land. So many cultures, so many societies have
known about this. So why is it that this practice
(25:36):
could prove so valuable for this current generation. How do
we adopt this kind of learning and understanding? What are
the psychological explanations that can be offered for these deep
shifts that we see in our emotional state and see
in our mental well being. To answer that, we need
to look at the neural and lobal structures of the
(25:56):
brain and how our brain has evolved to ad to
our environment. Specifically, the role of this new brain when
we think about the activities that were crucial for our
survival and therefore have the greatest role in the evolution
of our brains. These are around things like foraging and hunting,
(26:16):
and both activities obviously occurred in a natural environment. I
want to focus mainly on foraging here. We used to
spend our days searching for food, for useful resources, for berries,
for sustenance. What that involved was a really complex cognitive process,
constant exposure to new stimuli, a rich environment, and choice
(26:38):
options and cost benefit analysis problem solving. Crucially, what this
also meant is that when we were doing this, we
were using different parts of our brain and building different
synaptic connections that created a larger and more cognitively complex
structure that is our current brain at this point of evolution.
(27:02):
As we started really I guess, old humans, ancient humans,
whatever you want to call them, As they started building
these neural networks, as they started exploring more and problem
solving more, we saw this idea of the new brain.
We saw this new brain begin to develop, and that
is what truly made us human. That is where we
(27:25):
see our identity form, our personality, our social skills, and
all of that has evolved within an environment of natural fulfillment. Therefore,
the more and more detached we come from these surroundings,
the more and more we see those negative mental consequences
that we've discussed, Our modern day environment does not stimulate
(27:48):
this same activity or cognitive thrill. When we're trying to
navigate our concrete cities. We're doing monotonous daily tasks, Flashing
screens that constant spike in dopamine, and listen by social media.
All of that requires the kind of attention that is
incredibly procedural and automatic. It doesn't take much from us
(28:10):
cognitively or emotionally, or when we think about the comparison between, say,
the use of social media and natural scavenging, social media
is designed to hijack our reward system and to give
us a very immediate dopamine hit that is highly addictive
(28:31):
because it doesn't require much effort, but it also gives
us less satisfaction when we compare that to activities where
we are actively curious about our environment and in a
process of discovery, that creates a slower release of dopamine
that is more fulfilling, and that slow release effect also
(28:53):
means that it lasts for longer. I have a very
particular vitual towards screens because we have consistently seen that
more and more ours and daily exposure to laptops to phones,
it's associated with lower psychological well being because it is
(29:13):
so limited, same colors, same apps, same daily activities. In
a natural environment, however, we pay attention more broadly and
in a way that is rewarding, which leads to a
far more relaxed body and a relaxed mind. It's also
been found that exposure to nature reduces cortisol levels. Cortisol
(29:35):
is the hormone that is responsible for our stress response,
and when our levels of cortisol are elevated for a
long time, we see things like increased illnesses, increased sickness,
increased blood pressure. So putting ourselves in nature also reduces
our likelihood of developing some of those chronic health problems
(29:58):
as well. There's I've also been this study floating around
social media recently which claims that seeing water improves our
mental health. I will admit I was a bit skeptical
because anytime I see psychological studies or conclusions online that
don't have a source, half of the time they're not true.
(30:20):
But surprisingly this one actually is. This study was published
in the American Association of Advancement Science and It found
that staring at the ocean actually changes our brain wave
frequency and can put us in almost a mild meditative state.
(30:40):
Water seems to have this specifically psychologically restorative effect. Maybe
it's because of the sunlight less polluted air, but we
know that it significantly improves our mood and our mental wellbeing.
And finally, nature offers novelty. When we are used to
(31:01):
our habitual patterns and daily routine, the scrolling the work commute,
what we're missing out on is new experiences, and research
shows that novelty triggers the release of dopemine in the
brain as a reward, encouraging us to be more curious
and to be more motivated. That may be the reason
(31:22):
why we see this healing power of nature. It's the newness.
It's the break from the usual that stimulates this ancient
evolutionary need. So how do we integrate this, especially when
our lives are so busy, and for those who are
living in cities, we are in these highly developed environments.
(31:43):
I think it's all about what you choose to prioritize.
The easiest thing we can do is what is most convenient.
You could spend your weekends watching TV, You could spend
your weekends drinking, spending hours on your phone, or you
can make the conscious decision to do what you know
will be better for you psychologically in the long term.
(32:05):
The choices really yours. You are the only one who
gets to make that decision, and it's about deciding what
kind of life you're prepared to live. Plan a weekend trip,
a weekend hike with your friends. Make it an exciting
activity to kind of look towards and carry you through
the week. The other thing is to make like a
(32:27):
bit of a bucket list of local nature spots, beaches,
picnic locations, or just make the time to do normal
activities in these locations, like exercising, catching up with friends
rather than going to a bar, go to the local park.
You're going to save money but also get that nature fix.
(32:51):
I think it's all about slowly reprogramming those hijacked Dove
Maine systems to be positioned towards the outdoors rather than
indoor screen based activities. One thing I love doing is
planning trips with a big group of friends that are
based around nature. The best kind is a coast trip.
(33:13):
Everyone loves a coast trip. Everyone loves a little beach holiday,
and you'll also get the benefit of breaking up your
usual environment with this natural, novel experience. I think it's
not just about the big things, though, these very large
time and energy commitments. In a lot of those studies
that we've spoken about, they reference consistent, frequent exposure, and
(33:39):
I know that can feel really hard in big cities
or when you're super busy. I think that's the other
problem I often found when I was working full time,
was that when the sun rises at eight and it
sets at four, and your daytime is consumed with work,
how is it even possible to get that necessary outdoor time.
It's all about the small habits, the daily rituals, finding
(34:04):
a way to program nature into your everyday routine. We
all eat lunch, to find a way to eat lunch outside.
Walk to work in the mornings if you can, or
just try and get up early for a nice stroll.
Take ten minutes to just sit in the sun and
feel the wind, hear the sounds, the sensation of it
(34:24):
on your face, what it smells like, what sounds it's carrying.
Or challenge yourself to just leave your house every day,
even if it's just to walk down the Roade. Those
small moments of exposure are cumulative, and I think better
than doing nothing at all. I also want to take
a quick moment here to shout out some of my
(34:46):
favorite books and further resources on this topic, because if
you have not noticed, I'm very obsessed with this concept
and this entire idea of ecopsychology at the moment. I
think it's so important, it's not spoken about enough and
so valuable. Rewilding is also a really important idea in
this space, and this amazing book called Rewilding the Urban
(35:10):
Soul is incredible for understanding this. I'm also strangely a
huge fan of Into the Wild. I maybe this doesn't
sit here, but I think that this movie is incredible.
Sometimes what we need is not nature itself, but that
motivation to actually be present. And I don't know what
(35:31):
it is about this film, but every time I watch it,
I just have this urge to go and hike like
the Pacific Cresttrail. It's a must watch. And finally, Losing
Eden by Lucy Jones. If you love neuroscience, if you
love psychology, this book is so profound and really really convincing.
(35:53):
I really hope this episode has at the very least
left you with something to contemplate. Hope that maybe you
were on a little stroll while you were listening to this.
If you are, send me a photo. We'll definitely repost
it to my Instagram because that is so cool. But
I just think that nature is such an amazing psychological
(36:14):
tool and resource that we don't often use. So some
food for thought, if you will. I really enjoyed this episode.
I want to talk about this a lot more, so
maybe we'll do a part two. We'll never know if
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to see what's coming up. You can find our new
(36:37):
merch you can just look at video content of my
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(36:59):
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for another one.
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the podcast where we talk through some of the big
life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.
(00:26):
Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners. Wherever
you are in the world, you know the deal. Welcome
back for another episode. Today, we are going to take
a deep look into what psychology has to say about
the healing power of nature. Nature, the outdoors, time spent
by the beach, ingreenery, the forest. They are such an
(00:49):
incredibly profound sense of joy and peace for so many
good reasons. It relieves stress, It allows us to step
away from our monotonous routines. It actively rewires our brain
in such a positive way, and the research and benefits
are honestly endless, and we're going to talk about all
(01:09):
of them because I think it is so profound, and
the impact that nature can have on our psychological well
being does not get the recognition it deserves. However, as
a generation, I think we have become more and more
detached from this natural urge and instinct, from our drive
(01:29):
towards kind of the wilderness. Technology and social media in particular,
consume so much of our time. We are spending more
time indoors than any other generation, most of us living
in huge cities, and we've become very severed from this
innate need. I've even noticed that in my own life.
You know, there are so many days that I just
(01:51):
don't go outdoors, and that makes me feel so stagnant
and unhealthy and just really detached from what I know.
My brain needs this like very deep need, and the
consequences of that are becoming so apparent, not just personally
and anecdotally, but we're seeing increasing problems with attention, overall,
(02:13):
life satisfaction, social skills connection. It's even created these new
terms like nature deficit disorder, showing us that this alienation
from our natural environment is really creating a lot of problems.
So today I want to discuss the studies and the
science behind the healing power of nature and how to
(02:37):
implement that in our lives. We're going to look at
all the evidence, especially from this new discipline of ecopsychology,
but also some of the origins of this understanding, from
the idea of forest bathing in Japan, forest schools in Scandinavia,
and some really amazing techniques and just general philosophies and
(02:57):
understanding from some indigenous cultures in Australia and New Zealand.
What I find particularly fascinating is probably not the word
maybe a little bit disturbing, is that Western psychology in
particular is often really dismissive of how nature can be
integrated into our treatment for mental health symptoms and conditions,
(03:20):
and it just kind of pathologizes us. We're so preoccupied
with finding a label for things and with pharmaceuticals, which
definitely have their place, but I think that we've really
lost touch with that holistic perspective. So I also really
want to kind of explore how we can integrate exposure
(03:41):
to nature into our daily routine, from the big things
to the daily rituals, and the impact that we might
just see on our lifestyle and our emotional and mental
health and sense of fulfillment. It's a huge episode. There
is so much to cover, and some of them my
favorite psychology of the day is coming from this new discipline,
(04:04):
so I really cannot wait to share it. Also, if
you are not yet subscribed to my Patreon, please make
sure to go and follow me over there, you'll get
access to bonus content, new episodes, episode transcripts, studies, a newsletter,
so many good things. So I really appreciate the support
so many of you have already showed me. Without further Ado,
(04:27):
let's discuss the healing power of nature and all of
the science and psychology supporting our need to reconnect. I'm
so excited. I cannot stress this enough. If you're feeling
a bit lost, a bit disconnected from yourself, this is
essential listening. So without further Ado, let's get into it.
(04:54):
I think every single one of us has this intuitive
understand that nature is an incredibly vital ingredient for our wellbeing,
one that we have become very much detached from due
to this increasingly technology based society. Just you know, fifty,
even forty thirty years ago, we lived in a completely
(05:18):
different world in which the outdoors and nature they were
our entertainment. They were a deeply valuable part of our
everyday lives, when our attention was not constantly being pulled
a million different directions by social media and smart watches
and office screens. There's been this massive societal and environmental
(05:40):
pivot that our generation, those in our twenties have experienced
and are continuing to kind of witness. Someone said this
to me the other day, and it kind of like
stopped me because I'd never thought about it. But we
are perhaps the last group of people who experienced at
least some of our childhood or our lives without screens.
(06:02):
We can still remember running down to the local park
after school, riding our bikes around, climbing trees, playing in
the mud, all of these really crucial elements of play
that relied on nature as the stimuli, not something inorganic.
And I think although we've only just started to see
what this shift is doing to young kids and this
(06:25):
new generation, innately we know that time spent outdoors is
never time wasted, and that we feel better when we
experience nature compared to the alternatives of spending hours and
hours scrolling on our phones. That's something that has changed,
and for the first time in humanity's history, we are
(06:47):
spending more time indoors. We have a very limited diversity
of experiences. The other shift that I think is important
here is that we're seeing that by twenty fifty, maybe early,
it's been projected by scientists, by researchers that two thirds
of humanity will be living in either cities or urban areas.
(07:11):
We are becoming more and more severed from those evolutionary roots.
And this has even inspired this new term that I
was speaking about before, nature deficit disorder, the idea, and
it was really only introduced back in two thousand and five,
so less than twenty years ago. It claims that humans
(07:33):
we're spending less time outdoors and this is resulting in
a sense of really deep alienation and a wide range
of behavioral problems, especially amongst children. And I will say
it's not a diagnosable medical condition as of yet, but
there is this expanding body of scientific evidence that suggests
(07:56):
that a nature deficit disorder contributes to to a diminished
use of our senses, attention difficulties, greater problems with emotional regulation,
and also just a lack of natural curiosity. These researchers,
particularly the person who created this time, what they're suggesting
(08:18):
is that this experience, this trend is really weakening our
ecological literacy and that children in this generation we are
caring less and less about the natural world, which is
super problematic when we consider things like climate change, where
we need people to care, We need people to want
(08:40):
to protect these spaces. But these problems are also linked
more broadly to what health experts call an epidemic of inactivity.
Our lives are endoors, they are contained, and we are
very much missing out on how much healing nature can
and provide us. This understanding actually has a lot of
(09:04):
scientific backing, so much so that researchers have created an
entirely new discipline called ecopsychology to examine this very universal experience.
So ecopsychology is interested in understanding how we can increase
the connection between individuals and the natural environment for the
(09:25):
purpose of treating certain mental health conditions or promoting connection,
remedying alienation. Whilst I think typically we see conventional psychology
as being really focused on the connection between humans and
our mind and our behavior, ecopsychology is focused on the
emotional bond and the connection between humans and the earth.
(09:50):
The essential idea is that we have become detached from
our evolutionary roots, and by restoring our connection with our
minds with nature, we can psychologically almost heal some of
the modern day things that are impacting a lot of people.
You know, our external environment becomes a lot more industrialized
(10:12):
and clinical. That's a big concern because our brains are
still attuned to the ways of nature through centuries and
centuries of evolution, and by depriving it of that source
of stimulation and energy, we're kind of limiting what aspects
and areas of our brain that we can use, what
our brain is actually capable of. This idea has several
(10:37):
fundamental principles ecopsychology in general, and I think they're incredibly powerful.
So I'm going to list a few here before we
jump into the actual research, because I actually think a
lot of us innately believe this. So here are some
of the principles. Firstly, there is this synergetic interplay between
(10:57):
the planet, between Earth and our personal well baing the
core of our mind is ecologically conscious. The goal of
ecopsychology is to awaken that inherent sense of environmental reciprocity
that lies between us and the natural environment. And Finally,
the ecological ego matures towards a sense of ethical responsibility
(11:22):
with the planet, and that's something we want to cultivate.
I think it's really interesting, if not quite frustrating. Like
I said, that this discipline doesn't really get the attention
and the love and the credit it deserves. I think
because of this very detached clinical approach to psychology that
has dominated the field for many, many years, we have
(11:43):
become increasingly focused on pharmaceutical interventions and treatment of symptoms
rather than a holistic approach to our emotional and mental wellbeing.
I'm not discrediting that at all. I really hope that
it's not taken out of context. I definitely personally have
benefited and will continue to benefit from medical interventions for
(12:04):
my mental health, but I think our discussions should be
a lot more nuanced and inclusive of different options and
different sources of healing. Luckily for us, more and more
research is being devoted to this, so I want to
cover some of the major studies. One of the biggest
ones was conducted in the UK, and they conducted this
(12:27):
study of around twenty thousand people, and they found that
people who spent two hours a week in green spaces
that could literally just be your local park, they were
substantially more likely to report good health and psychological well
being than those who don't, and the cutoff was literally
(12:47):
two hours. Anything less than that we didn't start to
see the same benefits. Similarly, all these psychiatric unit researchers.
They've been finding that being in nature it has reduced
feelings of isolation, it's promoted a sense of calmness, and
it's even lifted the mood amongst their patients who are
(13:09):
undergoing treatment for various psychiatric disorders. Actually, in one of
the possibly the earliest actually observations on this, this was
like two hundred years ago, back in eighteen twelve, this
physician he worked with mental health patients, and he found
that his patients who had to pay for their treatment
(13:29):
by doing yard work on the hospital grounds, so they
were outside for at least three to four hours, essentially
doing manual labor in nature to pay for their treatment,
they actually recovered faster than the wealthier patients who could
afford the cost of treatment and who kind of just
walked around inside and stayed inside for much of the day.
(13:52):
That really flips what we would typically see. It's also
worth noting this is an observation, this isn't a study,
but it is kind of back to up by more
of those experimental conditions and experimental research that has come
out in recent years. One in twenty nineteen at the
University of Chicago, these two researchers examined the influence of
(14:14):
a local green environments on people in cities and large communities,
large concrete communities, and they found that green spaces near
schools really promote cognitive development in children, even just seeing
greenery they don't even have to be in it promotes
(14:34):
this sense of well being and emotional and cognitive development
that's been backed up. They did this incredibly. I think
it is possibly one of the largest longitudinal studies ever conducted.
These researchers in Denmark. They examined data from more than
nine hundred thousand, yes, close to a million, nine hundred
(14:56):
thousand children born between nineteen eighty five in two thousand
and three, and they found that those kids who lived
in neighborhoods with more green space had a reduced risks
of many psychiatric disorders later in life, including depression, mood disorders, schizophrenia,
eating disorders. I will say one of the things that
(15:18):
really I think conflates with that finding, or maybe is
an extraneous variable, is the influence of wealth. You know,
people who make more money can afford to buy homes
with backyards or in really affluent suburbs where they have
well maintained public parks. And obviously, as we say in psychology,
correlation is not causation, and we are by no means
(15:42):
suggesting that a hike is going to cure someone's major
mood disorder, but it is something to note, and I
think it's part of that larger tapestry of evidence. We've
also seen that people assigned to public housing units in
neighborhood with more green space showed better attentional functioning than
(16:03):
those assigned to units with less access to natural environments,
and just being exposed to nature it really improves things
like our working memory. Whilst exposure to urban environments, particularly
through childhood to adulthood, is linked to attention deficits, maybe
(16:23):
even at the extreme, and this is very much at
the extreme things like ADHD, it may also go way
deeper than that. It just provides a general sense of
well being that also helps to reduce things like crime
and aggression. Back in twenty fifteen, also in the UK,
they're really pushing a lot of this research at the moment.
(16:44):
They conducted a study on two thousand people and they
found that more exposure to the natural environment translated into
more community cohesion and substantially lower crime rates. Once again,
we have to think about the other rbles there, things
like wealth. But all of these findings are just combining
to show that nature is an integral part of our wellbeing,
(17:09):
of our physical health, of our mental health, of our
emotional health, that we don't only neglect, but the environments
that we now live in are neglecting for us. The
reason I wanted to provide so many examples is because
I want to kind of show the diversity of the impacts.
It's not just about our psychological wellbeing, but it's about
(17:31):
sense of community, it's about physical health, it's about loneliness.
The list is like honestly endless. This is just like
a minor cross section of all that is going into
kind of pushing the field of ecopsychology along. However, the
idea that nature has these innate healing properties is by
(17:52):
no means a new one. It has a really rich
and diverse history. It spans across the world Japan and Finland, Australia, Italy,
especially in a lot of indigenous cultures. Perhaps that's another
reason why it's sometimes discredited. Western medicine is very much
(18:13):
plagued by what we would call biological reductionism. It's always
looking for some internal pathological origin of a lot of
our problems rather than looking externally to what's happening in
our environment that might be making us feel this way.
And for many, many years, there has been this amazing
amount of knowledge in a lot of indigenous and non
(18:35):
Western cultures that has been claiming that, that has been
saying that. So what I really want to focus on
next is what are some of these historical and cultural
links that have been made between exposure to nature and
well being. Why is nature so powerful? What is actually
(18:56):
happening in our brains and our bodies to promote these outcomes?
And of course, in this increasingly digitalized world, in this
industrialized world, how do we integrate these practices into our
very busy lives. I know it's very easy for me
to kind of stand up on this podium or my
(19:16):
soapbox and be like, we need to spend more time
in nature. But I know a lot of us are
like that is so unrealistic. So let's talk through how
we can actually do that. It's a lot easier than
we think. So all of that and more in just
a second. One of the best examples of a modern
(19:39):
day in nature therapy or practice is called forest bathing
or shinrin yuruku in Japanese. This idea emerged in Japan
in the early nineteen eighties and the purpose was to
literally take time to bathe in nature. It's not about exercise,
it's not about kind of count your calories or get
(20:02):
fit or hiking or jogging, but connecting with nature through
all of our senses through sight, hearing, taste, touch and smell,
and by doing this kind of opening those pathways back
up to the natural world. It's actually become a vital
part of preventive healthcare in Japan. Some doctors will literally
(20:25):
prescribe forest bathing to burn out office workers, and the
government has actually invested in this. They've done a series
as studies and they found that this practice improved sleep quality, mood,
reduce stress levels. There's a really good book on this
very practice. It's called Forest Bathing, How Trees Can Help
(20:46):
You Find Health and Happiness. A friend gave it to
me last year, maybe a couple of years ago, and
it's really incredible. It's really quite profound seeing how I
guess what we can bring to our lives and how
we can elevate our experiences with nature. There's also this
idea in ancient China of chi which is the vital
(21:09):
connection between humans and the earth, and that connection has
formed a big part of the naturopathy movement in the
nineteenth century. Other countries and cultures have very similar ideas
or practices for promoting a spiritual and psychological reconnection with nature.
(21:30):
In a lot of Scandinavian countries they have these things
called forest schools. In Australia we call them bush schools,
and essentially the premise is that learning should take place
in a natural setting where children are able to explore
and discover, away from screens and away from kind of
some of those traditional learning practices. It's also called woodland
(21:53):
or free range learning, like free range chickens, and the
idea came about in the nineteen nineties amongst this small
group of Danish educators that although their schools may not
have an actual classroom, they could provide a better learning experience.
(22:13):
I think, if you've always been raised in a really
conventional idea of what schooling should be, this may seem
like kind of bizarre, maybe a bit abstract, But I
remember spending so much time in nature. As a child,
me and my sisters and my cousins, we would go
and explore the bush with my granddad and we would
plant flowers and make mud patties and swim in the creek.
(22:37):
I remember those memories so clearly. They're like a massive
part of my identity. But you know what I don't remember.
I do not remember a single thing about my primary
school classroom, not a single thing. I think the only
thing I can remember is like the class pets that
we had, and like standardized testing. I'm not saying that
(22:58):
I didn't learn important things during that time, but a
lot of that could have been elevated, and I probably
would have benefited from a more integrated classroom experience that
combined the outdoors, which luckily I was already getting in
like my leisure time thanks to my parents, but combined
that with some of those wild and natural experiences. And
(23:21):
I feel really bad for kids who don't get that.
I think they really miss out on some of that
natural curiosity. I've also been contemplating this idea a lot
in terms of my future children. Maybe that's an idea
we should do on the show. Like I don't know
what it was, but I entered my like mid twenties
and was like, couldn't stop thinking about children. We need
(23:42):
to talk about that, actually, But sidebar, I've been thinking
a lot in terms of the kids that I want
to raise someday, and I would want my children to
be a little bit wild, to always be a little
bit dirty and a little bit messy. I think there
is so much of this recent science that shows how
valuable those early experiences and that spiritual and psychological connection
(24:04):
with nature, how profound and powerful that could be. And
so when I think about how I would want to
raise perhaps future children, future versions of me, I kind
of reflect on what that says about my priorities right
now and how I can reflect that in my own life.
I will say this idea has existed for a long time,
(24:24):
and a lot of indigenous cultures have known what Western
medicine and psychology is only just figuring out, and they've
known it for thousands and thousands of years. In Australia,
our first nations people specifically Aboriginal and torrestright islander people,
who are the oldest known civilization on Earth. They have
such a deep idea of country and connection to the land,
(24:47):
and I think this connection is difficult for non indigenous
people to grasp something we can learn a lot from
because these groups, these cultures have long known about it
and use the healing properties of nature. There was a
really fascinating article that I read when researching this idea,
and it discusses this concept of barefoot healing or earthing
(25:12):
that allows us to feel present in nature and acknowledge
the interconnectedness between us and kind of every living thing.
And the Maori people of New Zealand, I know that
they also have kind of a similar philosophy and connection
to the land. So many cultures, so many societies have
known about this. So why is it that this practice
(25:36):
could prove so valuable for this current generation. How do
we adopt this kind of learning and understanding? What are
the psychological explanations that can be offered for these deep
shifts that we see in our emotional state and see
in our mental well being. To answer that, we need
to look at the neural and lobal structures of the
(25:56):
brain and how our brain has evolved to ad to
our environment. Specifically, the role of this new brain when
we think about the activities that were crucial for our
survival and therefore have the greatest role in the evolution
of our brains. These are around things like foraging and hunting,
(26:16):
and both activities obviously occurred in a natural environment. I
want to focus mainly on foraging here. We used to
spend our days searching for food, for useful resources, for berries,
for sustenance. What that involved was a really complex cognitive process,
constant exposure to new stimuli, a rich environment, and choice
(26:38):
options and cost benefit analysis problem solving. Crucially, what this
also meant is that when we were doing this, we
were using different parts of our brain and building different
synaptic connections that created a larger and more cognitively complex
structure that is our current brain at this point of evolution.
(27:02):
As we started really I guess, old humans, ancient humans,
whatever you want to call them, As they started building
these neural networks, as they started exploring more and problem
solving more, we saw this idea of the new brain.
We saw this new brain begin to develop, and that
is what truly made us human. That is where we
(27:25):
see our identity form, our personality, our social skills, and
all of that has evolved within an environment of natural fulfillment. Therefore,
the more and more detached we come from these surroundings,
the more and more we see those negative mental consequences
that we've discussed, Our modern day environment does not stimulate
(27:48):
this same activity or cognitive thrill. When we're trying to
navigate our concrete cities. We're doing monotonous daily tasks, Flashing
screens that constant spike in dopamine, and listen by social media.
All of that requires the kind of attention that is
incredibly procedural and automatic. It doesn't take much from us
(28:10):
cognitively or emotionally, or when we think about the comparison between, say,
the use of social media and natural scavenging, social media
is designed to hijack our reward system and to give
us a very immediate dopamine hit that is highly addictive
(28:31):
because it doesn't require much effort, but it also gives
us less satisfaction when we compare that to activities where
we are actively curious about our environment and in a
process of discovery, that creates a slower release of dopamine
that is more fulfilling, and that slow release effect also
(28:53):
means that it lasts for longer. I have a very
particular vitual towards screens because we have consistently seen that
more and more ours and daily exposure to laptops to phones,
it's associated with lower psychological well being because it is
(29:13):
so limited, same colors, same apps, same daily activities. In
a natural environment, however, we pay attention more broadly and
in a way that is rewarding, which leads to a
far more relaxed body and a relaxed mind. It's also
been found that exposure to nature reduces cortisol levels. Cortisol
(29:35):
is the hormone that is responsible for our stress response,
and when our levels of cortisol are elevated for a
long time, we see things like increased illnesses, increased sickness,
increased blood pressure. So putting ourselves in nature also reduces
our likelihood of developing some of those chronic health problems
(29:58):
as well. There's I've also been this study floating around
social media recently which claims that seeing water improves our
mental health. I will admit I was a bit skeptical
because anytime I see psychological studies or conclusions online that
don't have a source, half of the time they're not true.
(30:20):
But surprisingly this one actually is. This study was published
in the American Association of Advancement Science and It found
that staring at the ocean actually changes our brain wave
frequency and can put us in almost a mild meditative state.
(30:40):
Water seems to have this specifically psychologically restorative effect. Maybe
it's because of the sunlight less polluted air, but we
know that it significantly improves our mood and our mental wellbeing.
And finally, nature offers novelty. When we are used to
(31:01):
our habitual patterns and daily routine, the scrolling the work commute,
what we're missing out on is new experiences, and research
shows that novelty triggers the release of dopemine in the
brain as a reward, encouraging us to be more curious
and to be more motivated. That may be the reason
(31:22):
why we see this healing power of nature. It's the newness.
It's the break from the usual that stimulates this ancient
evolutionary need. So how do we integrate this, especially when
our lives are so busy, and for those who are
living in cities, we are in these highly developed environments.
(31:43):
I think it's all about what you choose to prioritize.
The easiest thing we can do is what is most convenient.
You could spend your weekends watching TV, You could spend
your weekends drinking, spending hours on your phone, or you
can make the conscious decision to do what you know
will be better for you psychologically in the long term.
(32:05):
The choices really yours. You are the only one who
gets to make that decision, and it's about deciding what
kind of life you're prepared to live. Plan a weekend trip,
a weekend hike with your friends. Make it an exciting
activity to kind of look towards and carry you through
the week. The other thing is to make like a
(32:27):
bit of a bucket list of local nature spots, beaches,
picnic locations, or just make the time to do normal
activities in these locations, like exercising, catching up with friends
rather than going to a bar, go to the local park.
You're going to save money but also get that nature fix.
(32:51):
I think it's all about slowly reprogramming those hijacked Dove
Maine systems to be positioned towards the outdoors rather than
indoor screen based activities. One thing I love doing is
planning trips with a big group of friends that are
based around nature. The best kind is a coast trip.
(33:13):
Everyone loves a coast trip. Everyone loves a little beach holiday,
and you'll also get the benefit of breaking up your
usual environment with this natural, novel experience. I think it's
not just about the big things, though, these very large
time and energy commitments. In a lot of those studies
that we've spoken about, they reference consistent, frequent exposure, and
(33:39):
I know that can feel really hard in big cities
or when you're super busy. I think that's the other
problem I often found when I was working full time,
was that when the sun rises at eight and it
sets at four, and your daytime is consumed with work,
how is it even possible to get that necessary outdoor time.
It's all about the small habits, the daily rituals, finding
(34:04):
a way to program nature into your everyday routine. We
all eat lunch, to find a way to eat lunch outside.
Walk to work in the mornings if you can, or
just try and get up early for a nice stroll.
Take ten minutes to just sit in the sun and
feel the wind, hear the sounds, the sensation of it
(34:24):
on your face, what it smells like, what sounds it's carrying.
Or challenge yourself to just leave your house every day,
even if it's just to walk down the Roade. Those
small moments of exposure are cumulative, and I think better
than doing nothing at all. I also want to take
a quick moment here to shout out some of my
(34:46):
favorite books and further resources on this topic, because if
you have not noticed, I'm very obsessed with this concept
and this entire idea of ecopsychology at the moment. I
think it's so important, it's not spoken about enough and
so valuable. Rewilding is also a really important idea in
this space, and this amazing book called Rewilding the Urban
(35:10):
Soul is incredible for understanding this. I'm also strangely a
huge fan of Into the Wild. I maybe this doesn't
sit here, but I think that this movie is incredible.
Sometimes what we need is not nature itself, but that
motivation to actually be present. And I don't know what
(35:31):
it is about this film, but every time I watch it,
I just have this urge to go and hike like
the Pacific Cresttrail. It's a must watch. And finally, Losing
Eden by Lucy Jones. If you love neuroscience, if you
love psychology, this book is so profound and really really convincing.
(35:53):
I really hope this episode has at the very least
left you with something to contemplate. Hope that maybe you
were on a little stroll while you were listening to this.
If you are, send me a photo. We'll definitely repost
it to my Instagram because that is so cool. But
I just think that nature is such an amazing psychological
(36:14):
tool and resource that we don't often use. So some
food for thought, if you will. I really enjoyed this episode.
I want to talk about this a lot more, so
maybe we'll do a part two. We'll never know if
you have an episode suggestion. As always, please feel free
to follow me at that psychology podcast and follow along
to see what's coming up. You can find our new
(36:37):
merch you can just look at video content of my
show whatever, whatever suits your fancy. Also, we have a
Patreon now that I plugged at the beginning. It's just
me doing this show, writing these episodes and creating this content,
so any support that you can provide is really, really meaningful.
You also get access to bonus content, so many good things,
(36:59):
and as all, if you feel compelled to do so,
please feel free to leave a five star review on
Apple Podcasts, Spotify wherever you're listening right now and share
with a friend, you never know who it will benefit.
So thank you so much for listening along, tagging along
today with this episode. We will be back next week
for another one.
Host
Jemma Sbeghen
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