August 17, 2023 • 55 mins
Trauma seems like a bit of a black box at times, something that we all experience as part of our life journey as humans but surrounded by a lot of misinformation. In this episode, we are joined by our guest, Dr MC McDonald, author of The Trauma Response Is Never Wrong to break down all of the science and psychology behind why we react to trauma the way we do, suppressed memories, what actually counts as 'traumatic' and the impact of trauma on our body. We also explore some of the more unexpected traumas we encounter and attempt to answer the question "will I ever heal from my trauma?". All that and more in this episode.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the podcast where we talk through some of the big
life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
mean for our psychology.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to
the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in
the world. Thank you so much for tuning in for
a really special episode, one that is highly requested. I
think people have a lot of questions around this idea
of trauma, not just in our twenties, but in our
(00:45):
lives in general. It is a super complex, nuanced space,
and I think there are a lot of misconceptions. We
see the word trauma being thrown around quite casually, but
what does it really mean from a psychological perspective. That's
what we're here to kind of break down today, and
(01:07):
I thought it would be important for us to bring
on a very special guest, someone who knows this space
well and who can really provide an evidence based insight
and opinion on some of the things we're going to discuss. So,
without further ado, doctor Mary Catherine McDonald, thank you so
much for joining us. Otherwise known as mc of course.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited
to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yeah. When you reached out, I was like, this is
the perfect person to have on the show, because yeah, yeah,
because I do think that it's a question. I get
a lot people are really fascinated by trauma. I think
everyone has something that we could classify as trauma in
(01:51):
their past. But a lot of the information we receive
about it is through social media, is online, and sometimes
I can make things, I think more complicated rather than
more accessible. Do you want to give us a little
bit of a background and an overview of what you
do and how you came to kind of specialize in
(02:12):
this area on this domain.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Yes, actually so, I have a very kind of interesting
path to trauma. It was not the traditional way. I
have an interdisciplinary PhD. So I look at trauma from
the perspective of philosophy, psychology, and neuroscience. And I started
out looking at identity, and I wanted to think about
(02:39):
what identity was composed of, and the specific thing that
I was looking at is like, to what extent is
our psychology built in story form? And there was this
huge debate in the philosophy of psychology at the time
about that and there was one side that was arguing
that we are absolutely a coherent story beginning, middle, and end,
(03:01):
and all of our behaviors for the most part, fit
into a story beginning, middle, an end, and it's how
we organize the world. And then on the other side,
there was this smaller camp arguing that that was not
true and that that was harmful and that if you
think of your life as a story, that you could
actually cause psychological harm to yourself. That side, to me
seemed incorrect, like, of course there's a way in which
(03:24):
you could have too tighte a story, and that could
but you know, potentially be a problem if you're tying
your identity to a singular thing. That can cause issues.
But it does seem to me to be true that
our lives generally follow some kind of story form and
that we're always telling a story. And so I reached
for trauma actually because I thought it was a case
that sort of proved that there is a story, whether
(03:46):
you identify with it or not, because so many people
when they've been through a traumatic event talk about how
the story gets interrupted or shattered or broken. And so
I picked this up and really intended it to be
a small argument in a larger argument about the nature
of the self and identity. And then I fell down
this rabbit hole when I realized that the field of
(04:07):
psychology still hadn't even decided what kinds of things counted
as trauma and what kinds of things didn't. And so
as soon as I leaned into that, I just fell
on this rabbit hole. And then I started thinking like, Okay,
we need to do this better, we need to get
clear on what trauma actually is. And then I just
sort of moved into the rabbit hole and I have
(04:29):
been there ever since.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
My goodness, pretty fascinating, pretty fascinating rabbit hole to be
and I would say.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Yes, absolutely, And it was an interesting time, sorry to
fall into the rabbit hole because at the time I was,
you know, I was at Boston University, which is where
Bessill Vanderkok was teaching. He wrote The Body Keeps the Score.
And yet when my professors heard that I wanted to
focus on trauma as my research specialization, they said, you know,
everyone knows that the trauma is made up. It's not real.
(04:56):
These memories are planted in the minds of patients by
the therapist. And yeah, this was like you know, twenty ten.
It wasn't like eighteen eighty five. So there's been this
huge like resurgence of discussion, as you mentioned a minute ago,
on social media and in society about you know, the
(05:16):
legitimacy of trauma. But I think we have to be
really really careful and make sure that we're actually getting
that conversation correct. You know, yeah, And.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
You really do owe it to I think everyone in
society to not to only say things such as what
those people were saying, and such as what those professors
were saying when you're completely sure. I'm sure it probably
came from a lot of Elizabeth Loftus's work as well
around like implanted memories and false memories and things like that.
(05:44):
But the idea that we actually don't have a good
idea and a good description or categorization of trauma is
one that I also find really fascinating. It's so interesting
when you look at even the DSM, or you look
at the diagnoses that psychiatrists can give it, like PTSD
(06:06):
or complex PTSD, and that's kind of the two camps,
and it's like, but what does that really mean? Because
each person is going to need a very i think
unique path through that, and I think that it is
also this movement towards a more holistic way of seeing
each individual psychology and more personal way of seeing each
(06:28):
person's psychology, and trauma is part of that. That kind
of leads to this question that I have and I'm
sure other people have, which is what do you define
as trauma? Do you think there is any correct way
of labeling a traumatic experience?
Speaker 3 (06:47):
I do, absolutely, but I want to start actually with
the incorrect way, because I think that the field of
psychology and psychiatry is actually getting this wrong. The incorrect
way is to make a list of events and say
these things are traumatic, and that's it. So right now
in the DSM, there are three things that are potentially traumatic.
(07:09):
There are three potential exposures that you can have to trauma.
One is actual or threatened death, the second is serious injury,
and the third is sexual violence. That's it. Those are
the three things. And I think the reason that that's
so problematic is because we miss entire populations of people
who are showing up with all of the rest of
(07:29):
the symptoms of PTSD and not getting diagnosed correctly because
they haven't met the criteria for a traumatic stressor, and
I think it also reveals that we need to move
away from trying to make a list and look instead
at responses. William James, who's sort of the father of
modern psychology in many ways, described trauma as a thorn
(07:50):
in the spirit. And I love this idea because it's
a little bit vague, you know, And I think we
can move from that and make it more specific so
that we we don't have this completely vague definition, but
that we also don't move to this thing where we're like, Okay,
these three things are traumatic and anything else is not.
So the definition that I use is any experience that
(08:11):
meets these two criteria. You have an unbearable emotional experience
that's criteria one. That lacks a relational home that's criteria two.
And the reason I like this definition, I've adapted this
from a clinician, Robert Stilo. But the reason I like
it is because unbearable raises the bar pretty high, So
you can't say that every single experience that you're having,
(08:33):
every minor inconvenience, every time you are upset, you can't
necessarily say that all of those things are unbearable. So
it makes it so that what counts as trauma is
sufficiently high so that we don't just kind of stretch
the word to the point of meaninglessness and call everything trauma,
which I think we're in danger of. And the second
part is that this idea of a relational home helps
(08:55):
us understand I think, both what we need when we've
been exposed to trauma to make sure it doesn't become
lasting trauma, and also what we can give each other.
And the idea of a relational home is just that
our experiences need a dwelling place, and all of them
do good, good experiences, mediocre experiences, all of them need
(09:15):
a dwelling place. When they're too overwhelming for us to
find a dwelling place within ourselves, we need other people
to relate the event to to help us figure out
where to put it.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, is that kind of like, is that in a
sense providing psychological closure?
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Do you think I can be? Yeah? Were you thinking
of a particular example.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah, Well no, So I'm just trying to because when
we talk about relational I think I think that's used
in a lot of different ways in psychology, and so
I think that's so fascinating. That second criteria that you
gave is there part of the definition that relates to
being able to find an emotional and or some form
(10:01):
of closure to the experience that you've been through.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
For sure. So I think essentially trauma is an injury
of memory, and the injury can happen in one of
a million ways. But the symptom, the key central symptom
that then comes out and other symptoms in your body
and we can talk about later, is that the memory
isn't integrated correctly. So if you think of your long
(10:25):
term memory like a file room, you have all of
these memories, and they're organized really well so that you
can pull them out, you can talk about them, you
can assign significance to them, and you can put them
away with relative ease. So if I ask you what
was the favorite what was your favorite suite when you
were growing up, you could probably think about it for
a while, tell me a story about someone who made
(10:47):
you that thing or who got that for you, what
that was like, and then you can put it away
and we can continue our conversation. That's an integrated memory,
and so in a sense, it has closure, it has significance,
it has meaning. Trauma memories don't close up like that.
They're fragmented because we're too overwhelmed in the moment to
put them away in the organized fashion that we put
(11:08):
away all of our other memories. And so we have
this strange file that sort of sticks out and either
has the wrong significance, it's disorganized in one way or
the other, and so it doesn't have closure. We can't
close it and put it away, so it remains present
in symptoms, intrusion, all of these things. And I think
(11:30):
when we are overwhelmed, we need other people to help
us sort those memories and assign significance. So kind of
just to work with a silly example. If you have
a breakup, let's say your first serious relationship, you think
maybe this is someone that you're going to spend the
rest of your life with. Maybe you're in your twenties
when this happens. It's actually possible. Some people are in
(11:53):
your life, are getting married, and then the relationship unexpectedly
sort of implodes, and you are left now with this
fragmented future. You had this, you were telling yourself this
story about what this relationship was going to be in
your life, and now you have to shift the meaning,
the significance and get closure. Sometimes that's provided in the breakup.
(12:16):
Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes your friends help you figure out
how to get that closure and put that away so
that relationship doesn't stay central and present or signify to
you that you will should always be alone, or should
never date again, or any of these things. Does that
make sense?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
It does make a lot of sense. And I think
actually this idea of breakups as being traumatic is something
that I say a lot, and I think we used to.
I think that we used to use that phrase all
the term trauma or traumatic when we were referring to
things that I think we can all very easily see
(12:56):
and very easily identify as being unbearable. The one I
always think about is, you know, people who come back
from serious conflict or come back for more on their
veterans and they have PTSD, And and now I see
it becoming a lot more part of our dialogue in
relation to the things that I think a lot of
us go through, breakups being one of them. You know
(13:17):
that breakup was so traumatic, Oh my god, that guy
traumatized me. What do you think Why do you think
that has become more common? Do you think that trauma
and our interpretation of trauma has changed for this current
generation because I don't know. I'm always I'm on the
fancier because I've have used the phrase, oh, that was
(13:38):
traumatic to explain the end of relationships and your explanation
of what that meant, that fragmented memory. It really does
kind of, it really does resonate with me. But do
you think that the more colloquial use of the term
trauma or the term traumatic, our use of it in
this current generation. Firstly, where do you think that came from?
(13:59):
And do you think that is a good thing for
the psychology and the progress around how we intempertualma.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
It's such a good question, a double part question. I'll
answer the first part first of where did it come from?
I think we need to think about that because it's
very easy to judge it, and I do this. So
I just had a book that came out called Unbroken
The Trauma Response is Never Wrong, and in it I
say that, you know, words really matter, and we need
to We don't want to stretch the word trauma to
(14:27):
the point of meaninglessness, because then we stop studying it.
Then it becomes like the common cold. We won't spend
any research dollars. We won't try to heal from it.
It'll just be part of human existence. And that's really
dangerous because it is in many cases a life or
death situation. And so I use in the book some
examples that are that are funny, you know, when my
students tell me that they're traumatized by a chemistry exam
(14:47):
or by the dorm food, or by the like sleeping
patterns or whatever, and I'm like, really, is it really traumatic? Like,
let's give me the context there. But I think rather
than judge it, it's important to look at like this
question of why are we reaching for this hyperbolic language
to explain relatively mundane experiences that seems like a relevant thing,
(15:11):
you know, Like is it that we don't feel legitimate
unless we have something that's hyperbolic and huge? Are we
trying to express something that's going on sort of in
a collective, unconscious way, Like we are living in a
really overwhelming time, So are we trying to match that
general feeling to our events in our day to day lives.
(15:33):
I don't know, but I think it has benefits in
it has disadvantages. The benefits of more people talking about
traumas that more people are talking about trauma, and so
that makes it less likely that people will feel really
like too stigmatized to get help when they need it.
It raises awareness, it normalizes that this is an experience,
(15:53):
and again we have to be careful of how we're
using it. And I think when it comes to breakups
in particular, I think some breakups really are traumatic. The
book is organized by each chapter has a case study
and then some explanation and then a couple of tools
to help the reader heal from whatever they're going through.
And one of the chapters is about referred pain. Do
(16:17):
you know about this in biology?
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Yeah, I actually do, but explain it for the audience
as well.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
So referred pain is a really strange biological thing, whereby
you might have like the classic example is if you
have jaw pain and you go to the dentist and
you think, oh, maybe I've got a root canal or
I have some sort of absess or something going on,
and they tell you that you need to go to
the emergency room because even though the pain is in
your jaw, you're actually having a heart attack. Or you
might have pain in your shoulder and it's actually a
(16:45):
result of your spleen. So the source of the pain
and the pain don't necessarily match up. And so I've
seen this with many many clients where they will come
in and say, you know, I'm working as a first
responder and I love my job, but I'm having nightmares
and I think I might need to quit my job.
And then we start to dive more deeply into it,
(17:06):
and it's not the job that's traumatic. It's the breakup
that they just had because they were planning a future
with someone who then unexpectedly turned around and waltzed out
of their life and sort of smashed their future to bits.
And so of course, not all breakups are going to
be traumatic necessarily, just like not all war experiences are traumatic.
(17:28):
Not everybody that comes back. This is you can see
exactly why it's so problematic to define trauma based on
the event, because it falls apart immediately. How does it
make sense if war is traumatic inherently that some soldiers
come back without PTSD, you know. And so I think
that we just need more nuance in the conversation. And
(17:48):
I know that's a value that you have. So I
think that it's that it's really important that we look
not at kind of what happened, But what sorts of
reverberations the event is causing, What sort of traces did
it leave?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah, I really love that. The idea of referred pain
is one that I really do need to speak about more,
because I do think, especially in our twenties, right, we
all there are so many huge life transitions. We are
like experiencing the world as adults for the first time
with an air of independence. So I do think that
(18:27):
our kind of grasp on things is inherently quite shaky.
So things can very easily disturb our sense of control
over our situation and disturb how we are consolidating our
long term memories and how we are creating the narrative
for our life. Do you think that there are some
people who are innately more likely to experience trauma or
(18:50):
interpret events as traumatic based on certain attributes of theirs,
or their temperament or their personality. Yes, please explain were
because I'm so fascinated by this. I think about this
quite a.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Bit, right, And so the first thing I want to
say is that I think like the twenties is one
of the hardest decades of life, and I think it's
no one really, not enough people talk about it that way,
because people are like, oh, the world is your oyster,
and you have so many opportunities and you don't have
to settle down and everything is open to you. But
what they're missing when they say those things, which are true,
(19:27):
is that it's also terrifying, yeah, and isolating and confusing,
and there are missteps and mistakes that feel catastrophic. And
so the twenties is a very intense decade. I remember, thankfully,
I had a therapist to tell me that when I
was in the midst of my twenties, which were extremely turbulent,
(19:48):
and I thought, Okay, if I can just get to
my thirties, yeah, some of this will calm down, you know,
which is true and false of course. But so I
think that that decade is an area where there is
a lot of possibility for trauma. And I think in
some sense, the shortest answer to your question about like
who is more likely to experience PTSD or to really
(20:11):
struggle with trauma is that we don't know, but we
know that some people are more resilient than others. Yeah,
and it's likely that there are like forty eight layers
that contribute to what makes someone resilient and there are
researchers who are trying to figure that out, and some
of them are pointing to really you know, singular explanations,
(20:32):
and they're saying, like, look, some people have more glucocorticoid
steroid receptors in their brain, and therefore they're more likely
to experience trauma. Some people have less and so they're
less likely. And that's of course probably a layer. But
I think you have to add to that, what was
the you know, what were the developmental years, Like what
is the support system, Like do you have rigidity as
(20:54):
a personality trait or openness? And to what extent? Like
so many of these things kind of her on spectrum.
So I think that one of the things that gets
in the way of healing is rigidity. But that's again
just one layer that I happen to be fascinated with
because I don't know that much about gluco corticoid steroid receptors,
(21:15):
you know, like there's just.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Right, it's not a word I tend to use office.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Right, Yeah. So I think it's going to turn out
that as we study resilience and try to figure out
what makes more people sort of naturally more resilient, that
we will find that there are many, many things that
we can do. And that's really quite hopeful because then
that also means that we can probably turn up the
volume on certain things and certain traits and and help ourselves.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
You know, you're really selling me on doing like a
PhD in this area. Not gonna lie. We should talk
about that off screen, off the podcast, because it's like
I think, resilience is this really this bit of a
like a black box, right, And in that is things
(22:05):
like childhood experiences which are so entirely unique and which
we have not properly mapped everyone I speak to. I
don't think I have ever spoken to someone in any
capacity on this show who has not pointed to childhood
as the origin of something that is going on in
our lives, something current and in our twenties or even
in our thirties or beyond, and yet we really don't
(22:29):
have much of an idea of what it contains. I think,
much like how you were explaining trauma, we really see
it as like specific events, so things like abuse or
things like neglect, or even people who move quite a bit.
But there are so many small, very life changing, like
(22:49):
grains of sand that gets stuck in the clogs that
we don't explore enough the childhood bullying. Like I could
go on and on and on, and I think this
podcast it provides me with so much anecdotal evidence for
the fact that we need to have a more in
depth and nuanced discussion because so many people come to
me and they say, this thing has happened to me.
(23:11):
It is it seems entirely unique. There is really no
literature on my specific experience. Can you explain it for me?
And then it's really interesting because you might look at
that and be like wow, like there is nothing on
this that's so unfortunate, But then you'll have someone else's
message you the next day with the exact same experience,
and yet it's not spoken about.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
I know. And that points to the idea that we
need to be really careful when it comes to the
way that we look at psychology as a science. Yeah,
because we expect to kind of precision and truth from
it that it does not provide.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Yeah, absolutely not. I think that's you can use as
many studies and as many statistical significances as you want. Yeah,
But I think that is also one of those things
where it is this is kind of off topic, but
there is this like battle of like, do we make
psychology a proper science, which I think it is. Do
we add in more of those experimental features to every
(24:10):
single thing that we're doing, or do we allow it
to maintain to maintain this kind of moldable, flexible, almost
like interdisciplinary kind of squishiness to it.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
No, but it's so fascinating, and it goes back to
the thing of like, so we study adverse childhood experiences
here in the US, I don't know how far that
has reached internationally.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Actually, interestingly, we did the first Australian child mal treatment
study and I was one of the interviewers. So there
we go.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Amazing. Yeah, okay, so you know all about that.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
I know all about the study. It's so good, it's
so fast. Not good but good for society.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Yeah, yes, yeah. But the other thing is that I
can't remember when the original adverse childhood experiences came out
was maybe the nineties. It was Kaiser insurance company in
the US that wanted to look at the the impact
of traumatic experiences on longevity and health because as an
insurance company, they have a stake in this. Right if
(25:08):
you're from an area where you're more likely to have
advers childhood experiences, should we cover you and insurance wise,
So there's problems in the study designed from the jump.
But then no one looked at positive childhood experiences. No
one even thought to look at that and how they
might counter adverse childhood experiences until like twenty eighteen. Yeah,
(25:31):
so all the way from the nineties or whenever the
first time was that the adverse childhood experiences study came
out until twenty eighteen. I'm probably getting the years wrong,
but it was a long time. No one thought, Hey,
we're talking about grains of sand. You said a second ago,
what about the positive impacts of the people that you
have in your life? What about the teachers that you
have that are so inspiring, what about the friends that
(25:52):
you belong to in the team sports that you play,
and all of this stuff. And so as soon as
they start looking at that, of course, the data completely changes. Yeah,
so there's this idea that, like, again, you know, psychology
is a study based science and studies are only good
as study design.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
That is, I literally got shells only a psychology. Now
you can get sheills at that phrase, right, I'm like,
you're so spot on I talk about protective factors on
this show so much, because the whole aim of this,
of the psychology of your twenties is to be like,
you have agency. You cannot change what has happened in
your childhood, as unfortunate as it is. You cannot go
(26:32):
back and rework the experiences that you had. But each
of us does have agency, and each of us does
have things in our life, things that happen to us, mentors,
something in our physical environment, something that inspired us, that
protects us against some of the negativity around those experiences.
(26:53):
I think it really does kind of go to show
how much I think psychology. It's just so unexplored in
some domains, and there are still so many aspects of
it that are kind of uncharted. It's like deep ocean
diving on the suite.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Yeah, exactly. And the more we learn about the brain
and neuroscy we realize that the brain is malleable, far
more than we thought it was. So even if you
did have advers childhood experiences, it doesn't mean that those
things are hardwired. Yeah, we have far more agency, even
just from a neurobiological perspective, over what we do with
those experiences. And how those turn into behaviors and how
(27:34):
we can intervene on those things. We just we need
to get that information out to everybody because if you
don't know that, then you don't seek the change.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah, neuroplasticity is so I think it's something that people
don't understand. I think we tend to think that our brain,
we hit twenty five, it's fully developed, we have all
the neurons that we'll ever have, but there is so
much like synaptic pruning and rewiring going on. I guess
this kind of brings me to my next question because
I want to recenter us on this discussion around trauma.
(28:05):
What is kind of the impact of trauma on the
mind but also on the body. How does it manifest
in sometimes our biology, but just in our physical responses.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Yes, so it's really important to understand that, like as
we go into this, that we stop separating the mind
from the body, because the two things are in a
dynamic unity and you're they're always along for the ride.
So anything you're talking about that's happening in the mind
is also having some impact on the body. So we
are designed to toggle between stress and relaxation and the
(28:40):
that's just by nature. We've evolved that way. This is
one of the reasons why one of my big things
is that the trauma response is actually not a sign
of weakness or disorder. It's a sign of strength because
the first responses that then can become over time maladaptive
and turn into symptoms are there to keep you alive.
(29:02):
And so we toggle between high stress and relaxation because
that's an adaptive way to be in the world and
engage with different circumstances and environments that are more or
less threatening. And so a very silly example is that
my house is sort of nestled into the woods, and
so every now and then there's a deer right outside
my bedroom window at three o'clock in the morning, and
(29:22):
a deer right outside your bedroom at three o'clock in
the morning. Sounds like two fully grown humans standing outside
your bedroom window at three o'clock morning. Right, We don't
have d here.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
I have no idea.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Exactly which is bigger and louder. And so at three
o'clock in the morning, I am at my most relaxed.
My nervous system is toggled al basically all the way down.
My heart rate is at its lowest breathing rate is
at its lowest, All of this stuff is at its lowest,
and then I hear a noise and an alarm system
(29:54):
goes off in my brain and body and reprioritizes all
of the functions in my brain and body to help
me adapt to that threat. And so I go from
lowest nervous system activation to highest in less than a second.
And you know this because if you've ever been woken
up in the middle of the night, you are sometimes
like across the room before you're fully awake.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah, it's like, see, it's your sympathetic nervous system, Like
your flat off flat response is so ridiculously.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
It's a lot yep. And that is the kind of
the command center of the stress response system. And so
when that happens in the middle of the night, I
go from relaxed to really stressed to really relaxed within
a matter of minutes, like I can usually assume as
I realize it's a deer, within ten or fifteen minutes,
I go back to sleep. And that's how we're designed,
(30:42):
because you couldn't stay in full stress all the time,
and you wouldn't want to stay in full relaxation all
the time, because then you're not adapting to your environment.
When we get stuck in stress, when fight or flight
gets switched on and stays on, this creates chronic inflammation
in the body, which leads to all sorts of symptoms
and breakdowns in the systems of the body. That can
(31:06):
result in a set of symptoms that is maddening because
they can look really disconnected and not related to stress
at all, and often we think that they are disease
independent of stress, and often they are disease that is
related to stress. And so since we're designed to toggle
back and forth when we get stuck, that that's when
we have problems. And so that is what contributes to
(31:30):
sort of the impact of trauma on the body, and
that can result in like chronic pain, gastrointestinal issues, sleep disorders, infertility.
Like the list is just massive in the mind. If
we go back to the memory files, now we kind
of have to move away from the deer experience because
that's pretty easy to integrate what happened, right, I can
(31:52):
tell the story about it, I can put it away
all that stuff. But when I have something that's significantly overwhelming,
one of the atas that my brain and body move
into and that overwhelm is that they shut down the
recording system in the brain, and so that fileroom, like
all the people that work in the fileroom, run out
of the fileroom to go help with the emergency. And
(32:13):
so the result is that you have this unintegrated file,
this file that's missing pieces. It either has holes in
the story, maybe there's no emotional content, or it doesn't
have the right meaning assigned to it. Those are kind
of the three things that all of our memory files need.
And so as an attempt to reorganize the memory, your mind,
(32:35):
anytime it's in the presence of something that looks familiar
from that memory will push that memory to the front
of your mind and say, hey, here's this file again,
right that color red reminds me of this scary thing
that we never integrated. Let's integrate it. The problem is
the fight or flight system in your brain and your
a Migdalan Olympic system recognize that as danger and they're
(32:58):
off to the races again. And so that's why memory
can kind of put you into this chronic fight or flight.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Wow, what that is such a great explanation. I think
the one thing I really want to point to that
was when you talked about the color red, like the
role of triggers as well, And I think that that
is so such an interesting way to put it, is
that triggers are basically the environment reminding your brain that
there are things that it has not yet figured out exactly.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Yeah, and we should think of them as like, you know,
like the indicator light in your car. When that goes off,
you don't just get out of the car and leave
your car in the highway, right. Sometimes you might want to,
but you're like, oh, something, something needs to be looked at.
Let's take this to the mechanic and look at it.
(33:47):
So there's there's so many misconceptions when it comes to triggers,
and that's I think one of the primary dangers of
when we talk about trauma incorrectly.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah, but it's interesting because you say that analogy of like,
let's take it to the maca and I can get
it looked at. But sometimes I and please correct me
if I'm wrong. You obviously know a lot more than
me on this topic. But I feel like sometimes with
the coping mechanisms that we use, particularly around suppression, mean
that people really don't want to look into the engine,
(34:16):
because like, is there a part of it that is
so traumatic sometimes that our brain eliminates the memory and
like completely shuts off from connecting with it. I think
the example I always think of is people who talk
about suppressed memories, that things traumatic, things that have happened
in childhood they don't remember until they're in their twenties
(34:38):
or thirties. I know it is quite controversial these days
that kind of field and that understanding of that, But
do you think that sometimes our mind does really conceal
traumatic events from us consciously?
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Absolutely? I mean I think so the trauma response is adaptive.
Its main goal, like if it was a video game,
is to protect you and make it more likely that
you stay alive. And so if it can reduce pain,
if it can reduce exposure to threat, it will do that.
And that feels to us sometimes disorganized, and it feels
(35:14):
like because we've labeled it this way incorrectly, it feels
like a sign of weakness or disorder. But it's so
critical to understand that biologically it is adaptation. And so
when you're a kid, especially for I mean maybe not especially,
maybe this is just a more vivid example, but when
you're a child, if you're exposed to something that you
have no language for that is so overwhelming that your
(35:38):
system decides you have to be taken out at that
moment in order to survive, it will do that. And
so this is essentially the freeze response, where you will
dissociate and disconnect from the experience and actually not really
fully experience it. And your brain. I think that our brains,
I think this is miraculous, like I think we've got
(36:00):
and it is so wrong when we label it as disorder,
because it's a miracle that there's something in your system
that's like, you know what this, We're going to opt
out of this, We're going to push this all the
way down. Because the other thing that happens is that
often you're in a situation where your system decides that
there is no one who can provide a relational home
that for example, if let's say the abuser is a
(36:22):
parent or someone in your family, there is no safe
space to go because to do so would be to
risk your primary location in the world with your family.
And so and you're like six, so what are you
going to you know, what are you going to do?
And so I think that our brains do this miraculous
calculus whereby they decide what we can cope with and
(36:46):
what we can't. And I think it's really important that
we don't disturb that because what comes, what needs to
come up, will come up, and it will come up
in the format that it has decided that it should
come up in, so you might not remember we have this,
like I think miss missed idea that if there is
(37:08):
a trauma in the past, we have to go diving
for it, you know, and go do a bunch of
ayahuasca and find out exactly what it is and relive
it in all of its you know, awful glory. And
we know that that's not true. We know that if
you show up in adulthood with a set of behaviors,
it's important that you work with those behaviors so that
(37:29):
you can live a life that is more fulfilling. You
don't always need to go back and uncover the thing
that your brain is trying to hide from you. You know.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
I really love that explanation, and I love how you
put that that we don't need to go diving for
a traumatic experience. It will come up perhaps even when
we feel safe as well, when we feel like we're ready. Yeah,
like we're ready to experience it. That kind of leads
to my next question, which is that how do we
manage our trauma trauma that maybe concealed from us, but
(38:01):
also trauma that is not concealed from us and very
present in our lives and really taking up space that
we wish could be devoted to other things.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
Yeah, yes, that's the million dollar question. So I think
there's three steps here, and I can unpack each of them.
The first is to notice it, the second is to
validate it, the third is to integrate it. And I
think these are healing from trauma. Actually isn't rocket science.
We've known more or less how to do it since
about the eighteen hundreds at the absolute or like latest,
(38:33):
like it's possible, we've known that for a lot longer.
That's just when we started writing about it in a
formal psychological way. We create so much noise and problem
for ourselves with shame and the way that we talk
about our symptoms. And so going back to the first one,
notice it, I think that if we could view our
(38:56):
bodies as the barometers that they are, we could realize
that our bodies and our systems are adaptive, and they
are giving us data all the time. Twenty four to seven.
Your body is giving you important data about what it needs,
what it's going through, and what needs to happen next.
And so I think just kind of if you imagine
(39:16):
like turning your radio dial to the channel of your
nervous system and finding out like even the most simple
things which we do not typically think about, what do
you feel when you feel relaxed, What do you feel
when you feel energized and excited? What do you feel
when you feel upset? Like in your body? What is
(39:37):
that experience like when you're nervous, Do you get stomach ache?
Do you start sweating? Do you turn red?
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Like?
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Everyone is a little bit different. And it's so important
to kind of tune in and figuring out to figure
out what your body is telling you, because that's the
key to noticing that you have trauma to begin with,
because your body will be setting off an alarm in
a situation when there's no need for an alarm, but
you might have been experiencing that for so long that
(40:03):
you don't even notice that the alarms going.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Off, you know, yeah, absolutely, And so it's the first
one is.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
To notice to notice it. The second is to validate it.
So we are very tempted in our society to go
to war with our feelings and to treat our symptoms
as if they are to be managed before we integrate them. Yeah,
and so if something inconvenient is going on in my body,
like I'm just going to shove it all the way
down until it goes away, and that will work for
a certain amount of time and then it will stop
(40:30):
working and everything will unplode. That for sure happened to me.
And so validate what you're feeling instead of going to
war with it, instead of shaming it and saying, oh,
I should be over this by now. Why am I
still feeling this way. I'm an adult, I'm twenty three.
I shouldn't be the sad over this break, you know,
whatever it is that you're shaming yourself. And then the
third thing is integrate it, which requires a couple of
(40:50):
other steps. So what we're working on here is figuring
out what needs to be integrated, right, how is the
memory fragmented? What is still sticking out? Do you? What
are some ways that you can ground yourself as you
lean into working with the memory file. So how do
you recalibrate your nervous system essentially, and three is getting
(41:11):
the memory to kind of more or less conform to
the formatting of your other memories so that it's not
continuing to come up in symptoms or behaviors that show
up like in your relationships or at work, or ways
that are getting in the way of your future.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Yeah, I really I'm listening to that, being like, oh,
I'm taking notes. I am taking notes because I do
feel like that integration, that integration point that you've mentioned
is so fascinating. And I was thinking as you were
saying that, like, what are my memories shaped like? Do
they have a beginning, middle, and end? And is the
(41:48):
reason why some of those files still sticking out because
they don't have an end yet and I need to
write that end for them? And I think that that
is like the idea perhaps of closure of like, Okay,
why does this memory and why does this event feel
like it is still a part of my life when
I haven't seen this person in the years, or I
(42:09):
no longer live at this place where this happened, or
I'm no longer an infant, I'm no longer a child,
I'm a fully formed adult. How come this memory doesn't
have an end? Why do you think we find that
with certain events or experiences that they continue to kind
of be part of our storyline even when we don't
want them to be.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Yeah, that's a great question. I think there's a thousand reasons.
And I'm kind of I'm like laughing because I just
got this. I'm writing a response to someone who just
wrote to me about, you know, a friendship that broke
up fifty years ago, fifty or fifty years ago? Oh
my goodness, still hung up on and I was I
had the exact same response, and I read the email like,
what is that even possible that I.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Don't that's actually scary that I don't want that to
be made that literally exactly. I'm I thinking, because I've
got I've got fifty years left I could Yeah, I've
still got time. Like what is the things in my
life right now.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
That are going to be.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Fifty years later?
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Yeah? Yeah, And I think it's because you know number
one you mentioned a while ago about agency. We don't
think of ourselves as having agency over our stories and
over our psychology. And if we can empower ourselves to
get a little bit more knowledge that that is a
huge step forward to figuring out what we need if
we go back to memory files for a second. So
(43:27):
every memory file needs to have a story like what
happened beginning mill an end, emotional content what is the
feeling of that story? Is it funny? Was it sad?
Was it both? Whatever? And then a set of meaning
tags what is the significance? How does this fit within
your larger story arc? And I think that last piece
is I mean, you can work in a memory in
(43:49):
any of those pieces, but I think the last piece
is one of the places that leaves things open for us.
We assign the wrong significance to something, and so a breakup,
instead of becoming a learning opportunity that was really sad
and tragic but still a learning opportunity, becomes the reason
that you are, you know, disorganized detachment and the reason
(44:10):
you will always be alone. And in some sense, again
going back to the brilliance of the system, the brain
knows that that significance you've assigned is wrong, and so
it's it keeps pushing it forward and saying, you better
look at this again, you better look at this again,
and so again if you go back to noticing, like
what is coming up for yourself, what is repeatedly what
(44:33):
are you repeatedly remembering? And then instead of judging that,
asking like, Okay, what's here? Yeah, Like, so this friendship
came up that like that ended fifty years ago? What's
here for you about that?
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Yeah? And do you think it's like some so, I
you know, it's hard not to apply these to our
own experiences, right, Like we're giving me these examples that
I'm thinking about this one particular event in mind. And
do you think it's because it points to like a
deeper truth that we think we have about ourselves? Like
do you think that in that instance of that of
(45:09):
that guy, that of that man, that perhaps it's like
it's not about the friendship breakup, it's really that's kind
of a proxy for something deeper around how he feels
about himself. What do you think that that comes from?
Speaker 3 (45:23):
Yeah, I mean it's got to have significance somewhere, right,
So it's got to be that he's got I mean,
I can guess. I wish I had more more details
because I could get maybe guess more accurately. But I
would imagine that he's got a deep seated fear that
he's worried that he's a bad person, and so a
friend ghosting him without explaining it has left this open
(45:46):
wound of like, if I could just have this one
person's validation, then I would know for sure that I'm
not a bad person, which is of course falls but
like when things kind of gain an outside significance, it's
usually because there's an underlying fear or a story you're
you're telling yourself that you're or a story that's been
(46:09):
told that you're trying to distance yourself from. So maybe
he doesn't think he's a bad person, but someone has
His mom always said that, and she's maybe you know,
and so he's he's worried that that that that validates that.
There could be a thousand things, but I think usually
when something is open like that, that there is some
(46:29):
something Like I sometimes ask clients like, what's the fear
beneath the fear? Yeah, so so don't tell me rejection?
What happens if you get rejected? What does that reveal?
And usually it's something really primary, like oh my, you
know that I'm that I am evil, or that my
mother was right that I didn't deserve to live, you know,
like some horrible thing that hasn't been processed from forever ago.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Wow. And I guess bringing it back to that that
breakup example that we were using at Psychologistic, not only
has this distorted this idea of my future, but then additionally,
maybe it's pointed to the fact that you do think
you're unlovable because that's how your parents treated you, or
that because you did experience childhood bullying where you never
felt like you were quite ready to be accepted by
(47:13):
anyone else. So I just think that's so fascinating and
once again points to that holistic perspective that sometimes we
need to take when it comes to trauma, that you
cannot apply a one size fits all methodology or explanation
to everyone's individual circumstances. I think that everyone is incredibly
different and has a different narrative. As you were saying,
(47:35):
this whole idea of a storyline, I've got one. I've
got one last question for you, Okay, And this is
a question that I get all the time, and I
always I answer in a certain way, but I would
love to see how you answer. As someone who knows
more than me, I feel like that is obviously very true.
So the question is, does trauma ever go away? Can
(47:59):
I ever live a life without trauma? So I am
always like, yeah, I think, sir, But what do you think?
Speaker 3 (48:08):
It depends on what go away means? You know, like
I think, sometimes the question gets framed up can you heal?
Is healing from trauma possible? The answer to that is absolutely, yeah.
Is erasing trauma possible if that's the frame you have
on it, No, that's not possible, but it can be managed.
And the way that we can explain this is by
(48:29):
going back to those memory files. Like if I open
the file cabinet and I take out the file of
the morning that my father died, and I start talking
about it, I'm going to feel sad because it was
a sad day. That memory file has sad as the
emotional content. Right. That doesn't mean I haven't healed. That
doesn't mean that the trauma is still present, that it's
(48:52):
getting in the way of my life. If I go
to tell you the story and this happened a long
time ago. If I go to tell you the story
and I cry for three days and can't go to work,
that's a sign that the emotional content is outsized and
still needs integrating. Or if I tell you the story
and there's no emotional content. That's also a sign of
an issue. But our memory files are supposed to have feeling.
(49:14):
That's how our brains are built. And so if the
question is will I ever stop feeling, the answer is no.
But the feelings change in in the way that they
are expressed hugely when you integrate the memories. And I
(49:37):
hope that that's hopeful, because it is.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
It's so helpful. I think the thing I always think
about is around integration, like you will get better at
making this event will no longer define you. And I
think that in a lot of the things that happen
to us, especially in our twenties, right there isn't we
haven't had the diversity of experiences to see in hindsight
that you have a lot of years ahead of us.
(50:01):
But you've only really had like max like twenty nine
years of your on your late twenties, and even by then,
I feel like you're kind of encroaching on the thirty space.
But particularly people in their early twenties, right like five
years ago, you were still a child. You have no
hindsight of what five years means. You have no hindsight
around the other things that are going to take precedence
(50:23):
over the over the bad times and over the hard memories.
Like I think that's something that I really had to realize,
you know. My Yeah, I'm not gonna get into that.
I'm not gonna I'm not gonna trauma dump on this call,
but yeah, I just think about this one experience that
I had, and for a couple of years it felt
like that memory was like the core of my identity
(50:44):
and that like everything could be looped back around how
hard that was. And then suddenly, like not suddenly there
was also work, but different things began to crop up
that were really joyful and that I wanted to find
place for. And I kind of had to rearrange the
(51:04):
luggage in my brain. I had to like rearrange my
storage space and push that memory to the side a
little bit. It could no longer have like a whole
massive platform in the middle. And perhaps that's how I
that's how I see integration of is that you know
that piece of luggage is still there, but it's not
like your primary piece of luggage, or it's like I
always think about it as well in terms of like
you know, when you buy like a new T shirt
(51:25):
and you like wear that T shirt for like ages
and ages and ages, but suddenly it's going to be
replaced by your new favorite item of clothing. And it's
not that that item is still not important and still
didn't have a part of your life, isn't in your photos, but.
Speaker 3 (51:39):
The thing and nobody can ever take away the significance
that it had. Yeah, that's critical. Like you might not
wear it anymore, it might just be a memory, but
like that was, for that period of time, your favorite thing. Yeah,
you know. And I think like sometimes we resist progress
and healing because we think we can lose what we've
already lost, but you can't.
Speaker 2 (52:00):
Yeah, that's such a beautiful way to put it. Well,
I want to say thank you so much. Is there
anything else that you want to say around trauma? A misconception?
Something you think we need to know that perhaps we
haven't spoken about yet.
Speaker 3 (52:15):
I think I want a listener to know if you're
struggling with trauma and the after effects, the traces the
trauma has left, that it won't always feel like this,
that you are not alone, even if trauma has tricked
you into thinking you are, and that healing is possible.
There's so much more life to live.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
Yeah, that's such a beautiful way to put it. Thank
you so much for coming on. This is perhaps one
of my favorite conversations.
Speaker 3 (52:42):
I also feel it flattering.
Speaker 2 (52:44):
No, it was really, it was really amazing. Sometimes I
honestly was in this call being like, oh my god,
I didn't even have to pay for therapy this week.
Cancel that appointment done, like it was. Actually, I learned
so so much.
Speaker 3 (52:59):
I'm gonna I'm so bad.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
Yeah. So, Also, I really want to plug your book
because this was only like a forty five minute conversation
and there is so much more as anyone can imagine
to this topic and to this conversation. So where can
they find you? Where can they hear more from you?
Speaker 3 (53:16):
So the book is called Unbroken The Trauma Response is
Never Wrong. It's available on Amazon and anywhere you give books.
We're working on getting it into many different countries, so
it's being translated in a couple different languages. You can
find me on TikTok and Instagram. It's the same handle.
It's just mc PhD and I'm always talking about trauma
and trying to demystify the symptoms and help people heal.
Speaker 2 (53:40):
There we go something that I think we all need.
Make sure you add that to your feed. A bit
of a doctor SEUs rhyme there, but I do think
that it's something that we need to speak about more concisely,
I think, and integrate more into our conversations around what
really is trauma, what does it mean, and how can
(54:01):
we move forward around that, especially in our twenties. So
I want to say huge thank you for coming on
board just to share your wisdom.
Speaker 3 (54:09):
Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (54:11):
Yes, please come back. We will do a part two
for sure and yeah done. And as always, thank you
so much for joining us today. If you enjoyed this
podcast and feel cool to do so, please feel free
to leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
wherever you're listening right now. Really helps the show to
(54:31):
grow and reach new people. Also makes my day and
I would really appreciate it. If you have an episode
suggestion or just want to be part of the community,
please follow along at that Psychology podcast on Instagram. You
will be the first to know about new episodes, new
guests like the amazing MC, and all that is going
on behind the scenes. So thank you so much. For
(54:53):
listening and we will see you next week. One
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the podcast where we talk through some of the big
life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
mean for our psychology.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to
the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in
the world. Thank you so much for tuning in for
a really special episode, one that is highly requested. I
think people have a lot of questions around this idea
of trauma, not just in our twenties, but in our
(00:45):
lives in general. It is a super complex, nuanced space,
and I think there are a lot of misconceptions. We
see the word trauma being thrown around quite casually, but
what does it really mean from a psychological perspective. That's
what we're here to kind of break down today, and
(01:07):
I thought it would be important for us to bring
on a very special guest, someone who knows this space
well and who can really provide an evidence based insight
and opinion on some of the things we're going to discuss. So,
without further ado, doctor Mary Catherine McDonald, thank you so
much for joining us. Otherwise known as mc of course.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited
to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yeah. When you reached out, I was like, this is
the perfect person to have on the show, because yeah, yeah,
because I do think that it's a question. I get
a lot people are really fascinated by trauma. I think
everyone has something that we could classify as trauma in
(01:51):
their past. But a lot of the information we receive
about it is through social media, is online, and sometimes
I can make things, I think more complicated rather than
more accessible. Do you want to give us a little
bit of a background and an overview of what you
do and how you came to kind of specialize in
(02:12):
this area on this domain.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Yes, actually so, I have a very kind of interesting
path to trauma. It was not the traditional way. I
have an interdisciplinary PhD. So I look at trauma from
the perspective of philosophy, psychology, and neuroscience. And I started
out looking at identity, and I wanted to think about
(02:39):
what identity was composed of, and the specific thing that
I was looking at is like, to what extent is
our psychology built in story form? And there was this
huge debate in the philosophy of psychology at the time
about that and there was one side that was arguing
that we are absolutely a coherent story beginning, middle, and end,
(03:01):
and all of our behaviors for the most part, fit
into a story beginning, middle, an end, and it's how
we organize the world. And then on the other side,
there was this smaller camp arguing that that was not
true and that that was harmful and that if you
think of your life as a story, that you could
actually cause psychological harm to yourself. That side, to me
seemed incorrect, like, of course there's a way in which
(03:24):
you could have too tighte a story, and that could
but you know, potentially be a problem if you're tying
your identity to a singular thing. That can cause issues.
But it does seem to me to be true that
our lives generally follow some kind of story form and
that we're always telling a story. And so I reached
for trauma actually because I thought it was a case
that sort of proved that there is a story, whether
(03:46):
you identify with it or not, because so many people
when they've been through a traumatic event talk about how
the story gets interrupted or shattered or broken. And so
I picked this up and really intended it to be
a small argument in a larger argument about the nature
of the self and identity. And then I fell down
this rabbit hole when I realized that the field of
(04:07):
psychology still hadn't even decided what kinds of things counted
as trauma and what kinds of things didn't. And so
as soon as I leaned into that, I just fell
on this rabbit hole. And then I started thinking like, Okay,
we need to do this better, we need to get
clear on what trauma actually is. And then I just
sort of moved into the rabbit hole and I have
(04:29):
been there ever since.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
My goodness, pretty fascinating, pretty fascinating rabbit hole to be
and I would say.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Yes, absolutely, And it was an interesting time, sorry to
fall into the rabbit hole because at the time I was,
you know, I was at Boston University, which is where
Bessill Vanderkok was teaching. He wrote The Body Keeps the Score.
And yet when my professors heard that I wanted to
focus on trauma as my research specialization, they said, you know,
everyone knows that the trauma is made up. It's not real.
(04:56):
These memories are planted in the minds of patients by
the therapist. And yeah, this was like you know, twenty ten.
It wasn't like eighteen eighty five. So there's been this
huge like resurgence of discussion, as you mentioned a minute ago,
on social media and in society about you know, the
(05:16):
legitimacy of trauma. But I think we have to be
really really careful and make sure that we're actually getting
that conversation correct. You know, yeah, And.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
You really do owe it to I think everyone in
society to not to only say things such as what
those people were saying, and such as what those professors
were saying when you're completely sure. I'm sure it probably
came from a lot of Elizabeth Loftus's work as well
around like implanted memories and false memories and things like that.
(05:44):
But the idea that we actually don't have a good
idea and a good description or categorization of trauma is
one that I also find really fascinating. It's so interesting
when you look at even the DSM, or you look
at the diagnoses that psychiatrists can give it, like PTSD
(06:06):
or complex PTSD, and that's kind of the two camps,
and it's like, but what does that really mean? Because
each person is going to need a very i think
unique path through that, and I think that it is
also this movement towards a more holistic way of seeing
each individual psychology and more personal way of seeing each
(06:28):
person's psychology, and trauma is part of that. That kind
of leads to this question that I have and I'm
sure other people have, which is what do you define
as trauma? Do you think there is any correct way
of labeling a traumatic experience?
Speaker 3 (06:47):
I do, absolutely, but I want to start actually with
the incorrect way, because I think that the field of
psychology and psychiatry is actually getting this wrong. The incorrect
way is to make a list of events and say
these things are traumatic, and that's it. So right now
in the DSM, there are three things that are potentially traumatic.
(07:09):
There are three potential exposures that you can have to trauma.
One is actual or threatened death, the second is serious injury,
and the third is sexual violence. That's it. Those are
the three things. And I think the reason that that's
so problematic is because we miss entire populations of people
who are showing up with all of the rest of
(07:29):
the symptoms of PTSD and not getting diagnosed correctly because
they haven't met the criteria for a traumatic stressor, and
I think it also reveals that we need to move
away from trying to make a list and look instead
at responses. William James, who's sort of the father of
modern psychology in many ways, described trauma as a thorn
(07:50):
in the spirit. And I love this idea because it's
a little bit vague, you know, And I think we
can move from that and make it more specific so
that we we don't have this completely vague definition, but
that we also don't move to this thing where we're like, Okay,
these three things are traumatic and anything else is not.
So the definition that I use is any experience that
(08:11):
meets these two criteria. You have an unbearable emotional experience
that's criteria one. That lacks a relational home that's criteria two.
And the reason I like this definition, I've adapted this
from a clinician, Robert Stilo. But the reason I like
it is because unbearable raises the bar pretty high, So
you can't say that every single experience that you're having,
(08:33):
every minor inconvenience, every time you are upset, you can't
necessarily say that all of those things are unbearable. So
it makes it so that what counts as trauma is
sufficiently high so that we don't just kind of stretch
the word to the point of meaninglessness and call everything trauma,
which I think we're in danger of. And the second
part is that this idea of a relational home helps
(08:55):
us understand I think, both what we need when we've
been exposed to trauma to make sure it doesn't become
lasting trauma, and also what we can give each other.
And the idea of a relational home is just that
our experiences need a dwelling place, and all of them
do good, good experiences, mediocre experiences, all of them need
(09:15):
a dwelling place. When they're too overwhelming for us to
find a dwelling place within ourselves, we need other people
to relate the event to to help us figure out
where to put it.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, is that kind of like, is that in a
sense providing psychological closure?
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Do you think I can be? Yeah? Were you thinking
of a particular example.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah, Well no, So I'm just trying to because when
we talk about relational I think I think that's used
in a lot of different ways in psychology, and so
I think that's so fascinating. That second criteria that you
gave is there part of the definition that relates to
being able to find an emotional and or some form
(10:01):
of closure to the experience that you've been through.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
For sure. So I think essentially trauma is an injury
of memory, and the injury can happen in one of
a million ways. But the symptom, the key central symptom
that then comes out and other symptoms in your body
and we can talk about later, is that the memory
isn't integrated correctly. So if you think of your long
(10:25):
term memory like a file room, you have all of
these memories, and they're organized really well so that you
can pull them out, you can talk about them, you
can assign significance to them, and you can put them
away with relative ease. So if I ask you what
was the favorite what was your favorite suite when you
were growing up, you could probably think about it for
a while, tell me a story about someone who made
(10:47):
you that thing or who got that for you, what
that was like, and then you can put it away
and we can continue our conversation. That's an integrated memory,
and so in a sense, it has closure, it has significance,
it has meaning. Trauma memories don't close up like that.
They're fragmented because we're too overwhelmed in the moment to
put them away in the organized fashion that we put
(11:08):
away all of our other memories. And so we have
this strange file that sort of sticks out and either
has the wrong significance, it's disorganized in one way or
the other, and so it doesn't have closure. We can't
close it and put it away, so it remains present
in symptoms, intrusion, all of these things. And I think
(11:30):
when we are overwhelmed, we need other people to help
us sort those memories and assign significance. So kind of
just to work with a silly example. If you have
a breakup, let's say your first serious relationship, you think
maybe this is someone that you're going to spend the
rest of your life with. Maybe you're in your twenties
when this happens. It's actually possible. Some people are in
(11:53):
your life, are getting married, and then the relationship unexpectedly
sort of implodes, and you are left now with this
fragmented future. You had this, you were telling yourself this
story about what this relationship was going to be in
your life, and now you have to shift the meaning,
the significance and get closure. Sometimes that's provided in the breakup.
(12:16):
Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes your friends help you figure out
how to get that closure and put that away so
that relationship doesn't stay central and present or signify to
you that you will should always be alone, or should
never date again, or any of these things. Does that
make sense?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
It does make a lot of sense. And I think
actually this idea of breakups as being traumatic is something
that I say a lot, and I think we used to.
I think that we used to use that phrase all
the term trauma or traumatic when we were referring to
things that I think we can all very easily see
(12:56):
and very easily identify as being unbearable. The one I
always think about is, you know, people who come back
from serious conflict or come back for more on their
veterans and they have PTSD, And and now I see
it becoming a lot more part of our dialogue in
relation to the things that I think a lot of
us go through, breakups being one of them. You know
(13:17):
that breakup was so traumatic, Oh my god, that guy
traumatized me. What do you think Why do you think
that has become more common? Do you think that trauma
and our interpretation of trauma has changed for this current
generation because I don't know. I'm always I'm on the
fancier because I've have used the phrase, oh, that was
(13:38):
traumatic to explain the end of relationships and your explanation
of what that meant, that fragmented memory. It really does
kind of, it really does resonate with me. But do
you think that the more colloquial use of the term
trauma or the term traumatic, our use of it in
this current generation. Firstly, where do you think that came from?
(13:59):
And do you think that is a good thing for
the psychology and the progress around how we intempertualma.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
It's such a good question, a double part question. I'll
answer the first part first of where did it come from?
I think we need to think about that because it's
very easy to judge it, and I do this. So
I just had a book that came out called Unbroken
The Trauma Response is Never Wrong, and in it I
say that, you know, words really matter, and we need
to We don't want to stretch the word trauma to
(14:27):
the point of meaninglessness, because then we stop studying it.
Then it becomes like the common cold. We won't spend
any research dollars. We won't try to heal from it.
It'll just be part of human existence. And that's really
dangerous because it is in many cases a life or
death situation. And so I use in the book some
examples that are that are funny, you know, when my
students tell me that they're traumatized by a chemistry exam
(14:47):
or by the dorm food, or by the like sleeping
patterns or whatever, and I'm like, really, is it really traumatic? Like,
let's give me the context there. But I think rather
than judge it, it's important to look at like this
question of why are we reaching for this hyperbolic language
to explain relatively mundane experiences that seems like a relevant thing,
(15:11):
you know, Like is it that we don't feel legitimate
unless we have something that's hyperbolic and huge? Are we
trying to express something that's going on sort of in
a collective, unconscious way, Like we are living in a
really overwhelming time, So are we trying to match that
general feeling to our events in our day to day lives.
(15:33):
I don't know, but I think it has benefits in
it has disadvantages. The benefits of more people talking about
traumas that more people are talking about trauma, and so
that makes it less likely that people will feel really
like too stigmatized to get help when they need it.
It raises awareness, it normalizes that this is an experience,
(15:53):
and again we have to be careful of how we're
using it. And I think when it comes to breakups
in particular, I think some breakups really are traumatic. The
book is organized by each chapter has a case study
and then some explanation and then a couple of tools
to help the reader heal from whatever they're going through.
And one of the chapters is about referred pain. Do
(16:17):
you know about this in biology?
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Yeah, I actually do, but explain it for the audience
as well.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
So referred pain is a really strange biological thing, whereby
you might have like the classic example is if you
have jaw pain and you go to the dentist and
you think, oh, maybe I've got a root canal or
I have some sort of absess or something going on,
and they tell you that you need to go to
the emergency room because even though the pain is in
your jaw, you're actually having a heart attack. Or you
might have pain in your shoulder and it's actually a
(16:45):
result of your spleen. So the source of the pain
and the pain don't necessarily match up. And so I've
seen this with many many clients where they will come
in and say, you know, I'm working as a first
responder and I love my job, but I'm having nightmares
and I think I might need to quit my job.
And then we start to dive more deeply into it,
(17:06):
and it's not the job that's traumatic. It's the breakup
that they just had because they were planning a future
with someone who then unexpectedly turned around and waltzed out
of their life and sort of smashed their future to bits.
And so of course, not all breakups are going to
be traumatic necessarily, just like not all war experiences are traumatic.
(17:28):
Not everybody that comes back. This is you can see
exactly why it's so problematic to define trauma based on
the event, because it falls apart immediately. How does it
make sense if war is traumatic inherently that some soldiers
come back without PTSD, you know. And so I think
that we just need more nuance in the conversation. And
(17:48):
I know that's a value that you have. So I
think that it's that it's really important that we look
not at kind of what happened, But what sorts of
reverberations the event is causing, What sort of traces did
it leave?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah, I really love that. The idea of referred pain
is one that I really do need to speak about more,
because I do think, especially in our twenties, right, we
all there are so many huge life transitions. We are
like experiencing the world as adults for the first time
with an air of independence. So I do think that
(18:27):
our kind of grasp on things is inherently quite shaky.
So things can very easily disturb our sense of control
over our situation and disturb how we are consolidating our
long term memories and how we are creating the narrative
for our life. Do you think that there are some
people who are innately more likely to experience trauma or
(18:50):
interpret events as traumatic based on certain attributes of theirs,
or their temperament or their personality. Yes, please explain were
because I'm so fascinated by this. I think about this
quite a.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Bit, right, And so the first thing I want to
say is that I think like the twenties is one
of the hardest decades of life, and I think it's
no one really, not enough people talk about it that way,
because people are like, oh, the world is your oyster,
and you have so many opportunities and you don't have
to settle down and everything is open to you. But
what they're missing when they say those things, which are true,
(19:27):
is that it's also terrifying, yeah, and isolating and confusing,
and there are missteps and mistakes that feel catastrophic. And
so the twenties is a very intense decade. I remember, thankfully,
I had a therapist to tell me that when I
was in the midst of my twenties, which were extremely turbulent,
(19:48):
and I thought, Okay, if I can just get to
my thirties, yeah, some of this will calm down, you know,
which is true and false of course. But so I
think that that decade is an area where there is
a lot of possibility for trauma. And I think in
some sense, the shortest answer to your question about like
who is more likely to experience PTSD or to really
(20:11):
struggle with trauma is that we don't know, but we
know that some people are more resilient than others. Yeah,
and it's likely that there are like forty eight layers
that contribute to what makes someone resilient and there are
researchers who are trying to figure that out, and some
of them are pointing to really you know, singular explanations,
(20:32):
and they're saying, like, look, some people have more glucocorticoid
steroid receptors in their brain, and therefore they're more likely
to experience trauma. Some people have less and so they're
less likely. And that's of course probably a layer. But
I think you have to add to that, what was
the you know, what were the developmental years, Like what
is the support system, Like do you have rigidity as
(20:54):
a personality trait or openness? And to what extent? Like
so many of these things kind of her on spectrum.
So I think that one of the things that gets
in the way of healing is rigidity. But that's again
just one layer that I happen to be fascinated with
because I don't know that much about gluco corticoid steroid receptors,
(21:15):
you know, like there's just.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Right, it's not a word I tend to use office.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Right, Yeah. So I think it's going to turn out
that as we study resilience and try to figure out
what makes more people sort of naturally more resilient, that
we will find that there are many, many things that
we can do. And that's really quite hopeful because then
that also means that we can probably turn up the
volume on certain things and certain traits and and help ourselves.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
You know, you're really selling me on doing like a
PhD in this area. Not gonna lie. We should talk
about that off screen, off the podcast, because it's like
I think, resilience is this really this bit of a
like a black box, right, And in that is things
(22:05):
like childhood experiences which are so entirely unique and which
we have not properly mapped everyone I speak to. I
don't think I have ever spoken to someone in any
capacity on this show who has not pointed to childhood
as the origin of something that is going on in
our lives, something current and in our twenties or even
in our thirties or beyond, and yet we really don't
(22:29):
have much of an idea of what it contains. I think,
much like how you were explaining trauma, we really see
it as like specific events, so things like abuse or
things like neglect, or even people who move quite a bit.
But there are so many small, very life changing, like
(22:49):
grains of sand that gets stuck in the clogs that
we don't explore enough the childhood bullying. Like I could
go on and on and on, and I think this
podcast it provides me with so much anecdotal evidence for
the fact that we need to have a more in
depth and nuanced discussion because so many people come to
me and they say, this thing has happened to me.
(23:11):
It is it seems entirely unique. There is really no
literature on my specific experience. Can you explain it for me?
And then it's really interesting because you might look at
that and be like wow, like there is nothing on
this that's so unfortunate, But then you'll have someone else's
message you the next day with the exact same experience,
and yet it's not spoken about.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
I know. And that points to the idea that we
need to be really careful when it comes to the
way that we look at psychology as a science. Yeah,
because we expect to kind of precision and truth from
it that it does not provide.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Yeah, absolutely not. I think that's you can use as
many studies and as many statistical significances as you want. Yeah,
But I think that is also one of those things
where it is this is kind of off topic, but
there is this like battle of like, do we make
psychology a proper science, which I think it is. Do
we add in more of those experimental features to every
(24:10):
single thing that we're doing, or do we allow it
to maintain to maintain this kind of moldable, flexible, almost
like interdisciplinary kind of squishiness to it.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
No, but it's so fascinating, and it goes back to
the thing of like, so we study adverse childhood experiences
here in the US, I don't know how far that
has reached internationally.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Actually, interestingly, we did the first Australian child mal treatment
study and I was one of the interviewers. So there
we go.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Amazing. Yeah, okay, so you know all about that.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
I know all about the study. It's so good, it's
so fast. Not good but good for society.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Yeah, yes, yeah. But the other thing is that I
can't remember when the original adverse childhood experiences came out
was maybe the nineties. It was Kaiser insurance company in
the US that wanted to look at the the impact
of traumatic experiences on longevity and health because as an
insurance company, they have a stake in this. Right if
(25:08):
you're from an area where you're more likely to have
advers childhood experiences, should we cover you and insurance wise,
So there's problems in the study designed from the jump.
But then no one looked at positive childhood experiences. No
one even thought to look at that and how they
might counter adverse childhood experiences until like twenty eighteen. Yeah,
(25:31):
so all the way from the nineties or whenever the
first time was that the adverse childhood experiences study came
out until twenty eighteen. I'm probably getting the years wrong,
but it was a long time. No one thought, Hey,
we're talking about grains of sand. You said a second ago,
what about the positive impacts of the people that you
have in your life? What about the teachers that you
have that are so inspiring, what about the friends that
(25:52):
you belong to in the team sports that you play,
and all of this stuff. And so as soon as
they start looking at that, of course, the data completely changes. Yeah,
so there's this idea that, like, again, you know, psychology
is a study based science and studies are only good
as study design.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
That is, I literally got shells only a psychology. Now
you can get sheills at that phrase, right, I'm like,
you're so spot on I talk about protective factors on
this show so much, because the whole aim of this,
of the psychology of your twenties is to be like,
you have agency. You cannot change what has happened in
your childhood, as unfortunate as it is. You cannot go
(26:32):
back and rework the experiences that you had. But each
of us does have agency, and each of us does
have things in our life, things that happen to us, mentors,
something in our physical environment, something that inspired us, that
protects us against some of the negativity around those experiences.
(26:53):
I think it really does kind of go to show
how much I think psychology. It's just so unexplored in
some domains, and there are still so many aspects of
it that are kind of uncharted. It's like deep ocean
diving on the suite.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Yeah, exactly. And the more we learn about the brain
and neuroscy we realize that the brain is malleable, far
more than we thought it was. So even if you
did have advers childhood experiences, it doesn't mean that those
things are hardwired. Yeah, we have far more agency, even
just from a neurobiological perspective, over what we do with
those experiences. And how those turn into behaviors and how
(27:34):
we can intervene on those things. We just we need
to get that information out to everybody because if you
don't know that, then you don't seek the change.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah, neuroplasticity is so I think it's something that people
don't understand. I think we tend to think that our brain,
we hit twenty five, it's fully developed, we have all
the neurons that we'll ever have, but there is so
much like synaptic pruning and rewiring going on. I guess
this kind of brings me to my next question because
I want to recenter us on this discussion around trauma.
(28:05):
What is kind of the impact of trauma on the
mind but also on the body. How does it manifest
in sometimes our biology, but just in our physical responses.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Yes, so it's really important to understand that, like as
we go into this, that we stop separating the mind
from the body, because the two things are in a
dynamic unity and you're they're always along for the ride.
So anything you're talking about that's happening in the mind
is also having some impact on the body. So we
are designed to toggle between stress and relaxation and the
(28:40):
that's just by nature. We've evolved that way. This is
one of the reasons why one of my big things
is that the trauma response is actually not a sign
of weakness or disorder. It's a sign of strength because
the first responses that then can become over time maladaptive
and turn into symptoms are there to keep you alive.
(29:02):
And so we toggle between high stress and relaxation because
that's an adaptive way to be in the world and
engage with different circumstances and environments that are more or
less threatening. And so a very silly example is that
my house is sort of nestled into the woods, and
so every now and then there's a deer right outside
my bedroom window at three o'clock in the morning, and
(29:22):
a deer right outside your bedroom at three o'clock in
the morning. Sounds like two fully grown humans standing outside
your bedroom window at three o'clock morning. Right, We don't
have d here.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
I have no idea.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Exactly which is bigger and louder. And so at three
o'clock in the morning, I am at my most relaxed.
My nervous system is toggled al basically all the way down.
My heart rate is at its lowest breathing rate is
at its lowest, All of this stuff is at its lowest,
and then I hear a noise and an alarm system
(29:54):
goes off in my brain and body and reprioritizes all
of the functions in my brain and body to help
me adapt to that threat. And so I go from
lowest nervous system activation to highest in less than a second.
And you know this because if you've ever been woken
up in the middle of the night, you are sometimes
like across the room before you're fully awake.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah, it's like, see, it's your sympathetic nervous system, Like
your flat off flat response is so ridiculously.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
It's a lot yep. And that is the kind of
the command center of the stress response system. And so
when that happens in the middle of the night, I
go from relaxed to really stressed to really relaxed within
a matter of minutes, like I can usually assume as
I realize it's a deer, within ten or fifteen minutes,
I go back to sleep. And that's how we're designed,
(30:42):
because you couldn't stay in full stress all the time,
and you wouldn't want to stay in full relaxation all
the time, because then you're not adapting to your environment.
When we get stuck in stress, when fight or flight
gets switched on and stays on, this creates chronic inflammation
in the body, which leads to all sorts of symptoms
and breakdowns in the systems of the body. That can
(31:06):
result in a set of symptoms that is maddening because
they can look really disconnected and not related to stress
at all, and often we think that they are disease
independent of stress, and often they are disease that is
related to stress. And so since we're designed to toggle
back and forth when we get stuck, that that's when
we have problems. And so that is what contributes to
(31:30):
sort of the impact of trauma on the body, and
that can result in like chronic pain, gastrointestinal issues, sleep disorders, infertility.
Like the list is just massive in the mind. If
we go back to the memory files, now we kind
of have to move away from the deer experience because
that's pretty easy to integrate what happened, right, I can
(31:52):
tell the story about it, I can put it away
all that stuff. But when I have something that's significantly overwhelming,
one of the atas that my brain and body move
into and that overwhelm is that they shut down the
recording system in the brain, and so that fileroom, like
all the people that work in the fileroom, run out
of the fileroom to go help with the emergency. And
(32:13):
so the result is that you have this unintegrated file,
this file that's missing pieces. It either has holes in
the story, maybe there's no emotional content, or it doesn't
have the right meaning assigned to it. Those are kind
of the three things that all of our memory files need.
And so as an attempt to reorganize the memory, your mind,
(32:35):
anytime it's in the presence of something that looks familiar
from that memory will push that memory to the front
of your mind and say, hey, here's this file again,
right that color red reminds me of this scary thing
that we never integrated. Let's integrate it. The problem is
the fight or flight system in your brain and your
a Migdalan Olympic system recognize that as danger and they're
(32:58):
off to the races again. And so that's why memory
can kind of put you into this chronic fight or flight.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Wow, what that is such a great explanation. I think
the one thing I really want to point to that
was when you talked about the color red, like the
role of triggers as well, And I think that that
is so such an interesting way to put it, is
that triggers are basically the environment reminding your brain that
there are things that it has not yet figured out exactly.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Yeah, and we should think of them as like, you know,
like the indicator light in your car. When that goes off,
you don't just get out of the car and leave
your car in the highway, right. Sometimes you might want to,
but you're like, oh, something, something needs to be looked at.
Let's take this to the mechanic and look at it.
(33:47):
So there's there's so many misconceptions when it comes to triggers,
and that's I think one of the primary dangers of
when we talk about trauma incorrectly.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah, but it's interesting because you say that analogy of like,
let's take it to the maca and I can get
it looked at. But sometimes I and please correct me
if I'm wrong. You obviously know a lot more than
me on this topic. But I feel like sometimes with
the coping mechanisms that we use, particularly around suppression, mean
that people really don't want to look into the engine,
(34:16):
because like, is there a part of it that is
so traumatic sometimes that our brain eliminates the memory and
like completely shuts off from connecting with it. I think
the example I always think of is people who talk
about suppressed memories, that things traumatic, things that have happened
in childhood they don't remember until they're in their twenties
(34:38):
or thirties. I know it is quite controversial these days
that kind of field and that understanding of that, But
do you think that sometimes our mind does really conceal
traumatic events from us consciously?
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Absolutely? I mean I think so the trauma response is adaptive.
Its main goal, like if it was a video game,
is to protect you and make it more likely that
you stay alive. And so if it can reduce pain,
if it can reduce exposure to threat, it will do that.
And that feels to us sometimes disorganized, and it feels
(35:14):
like because we've labeled it this way incorrectly, it feels
like a sign of weakness or disorder. But it's so
critical to understand that biologically it is adaptation. And so
when you're a kid, especially for I mean maybe not especially,
maybe this is just a more vivid example, but when
you're a child, if you're exposed to something that you
have no language for that is so overwhelming that your
(35:38):
system decides you have to be taken out at that
moment in order to survive, it will do that. And
so this is essentially the freeze response, where you will
dissociate and disconnect from the experience and actually not really
fully experience it. And your brain. I think that our brains,
I think this is miraculous, like I think we've got
(36:00):
and it is so wrong when we label it as disorder,
because it's a miracle that there's something in your system
that's like, you know what this, We're going to opt
out of this, We're going to push this all the
way down. Because the other thing that happens is that
often you're in a situation where your system decides that
there is no one who can provide a relational home
that for example, if let's say the abuser is a
(36:22):
parent or someone in your family, there is no safe
space to go because to do so would be to
risk your primary location in the world with your family.
And so and you're like six, so what are you
going to you know, what are you going to do?
And so I think that our brains do this miraculous
calculus whereby they decide what we can cope with and
(36:46):
what we can't. And I think it's really important that
we don't disturb that because what comes, what needs to
come up, will come up, and it will come up
in the format that it has decided that it should
come up in, so you might not remember we have this,
like I think miss missed idea that if there is
(37:08):
a trauma in the past, we have to go diving
for it, you know, and go do a bunch of
ayahuasca and find out exactly what it is and relive
it in all of its you know, awful glory. And
we know that that's not true. We know that if
you show up in adulthood with a set of behaviors,
it's important that you work with those behaviors so that
(37:29):
you can live a life that is more fulfilling. You
don't always need to go back and uncover the thing
that your brain is trying to hide from you. You know.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
I really love that explanation, and I love how you
put that that we don't need to go diving for
a traumatic experience. It will come up perhaps even when
we feel safe as well, when we feel like we're ready. Yeah,
like we're ready to experience it. That kind of leads
to my next question, which is that how do we
manage our trauma trauma that maybe concealed from us, but
(38:01):
also trauma that is not concealed from us and very
present in our lives and really taking up space that
we wish could be devoted to other things.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
Yeah, yes, that's the million dollar question. So I think
there's three steps here, and I can unpack each of them.
The first is to notice it, the second is to
validate it, the third is to integrate it. And I
think these are healing from trauma. Actually isn't rocket science.
We've known more or less how to do it since
about the eighteen hundreds at the absolute or like latest,
(38:33):
like it's possible, we've known that for a lot longer.
That's just when we started writing about it in a
formal psychological way. We create so much noise and problem
for ourselves with shame and the way that we talk
about our symptoms. And so going back to the first one,
notice it, I think that if we could view our
(38:56):
bodies as the barometers that they are, we could realize
that our bodies and our systems are adaptive, and they
are giving us data all the time. Twenty four to seven.
Your body is giving you important data about what it needs,
what it's going through, and what needs to happen next.
And so I think just kind of if you imagine
(39:16):
like turning your radio dial to the channel of your
nervous system and finding out like even the most simple
things which we do not typically think about, what do
you feel when you feel relaxed, What do you feel
when you feel energized and excited? What do you feel
when you feel upset? Like in your body? What is
(39:37):
that experience like when you're nervous, Do you get stomach ache?
Do you start sweating? Do you turn red?
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Like?
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Everyone is a little bit different. And it's so important
to kind of tune in and figuring out to figure
out what your body is telling you, because that's the
key to noticing that you have trauma to begin with,
because your body will be setting off an alarm in
a situation when there's no need for an alarm, but
you might have been experiencing that for so long that
(40:03):
you don't even notice that the alarms going.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Off, you know, yeah, absolutely, And so it's the first
one is.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
To notice to notice it. The second is to validate it.
So we are very tempted in our society to go
to war with our feelings and to treat our symptoms
as if they are to be managed before we integrate them. Yeah,
and so if something inconvenient is going on in my body,
like I'm just going to shove it all the way
down until it goes away, and that will work for
a certain amount of time and then it will stop
(40:30):
working and everything will unplode. That for sure happened to me.
And so validate what you're feeling instead of going to
war with it, instead of shaming it and saying, oh,
I should be over this by now. Why am I
still feeling this way. I'm an adult, I'm twenty three.
I shouldn't be the sad over this break, you know,
whatever it is that you're shaming yourself. And then the
third thing is integrate it, which requires a couple of
(40:50):
other steps. So what we're working on here is figuring
out what needs to be integrated, right, how is the
memory fragmented? What is still sticking out? Do you? What
are some ways that you can ground yourself as you
lean into working with the memory file. So how do
you recalibrate your nervous system essentially, and three is getting
(41:11):
the memory to kind of more or less conform to
the formatting of your other memories so that it's not
continuing to come up in symptoms or behaviors that show
up like in your relationships or at work, or ways
that are getting in the way of your future.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Yeah, I really I'm listening to that, being like, oh,
I'm taking notes. I am taking notes because I do
feel like that integration, that integration point that you've mentioned
is so fascinating. And I was thinking as you were
saying that, like, what are my memories shaped like? Do
they have a beginning, middle, and end? And is the
(41:48):
reason why some of those files still sticking out because
they don't have an end yet and I need to
write that end for them? And I think that that
is like the idea perhaps of closure of like, Okay,
why does this memory and why does this event feel
like it is still a part of my life when
I haven't seen this person in the years, or I
(42:09):
no longer live at this place where this happened, or
I'm no longer an infant, I'm no longer a child,
I'm a fully formed adult. How come this memory doesn't
have an end? Why do you think we find that
with certain events or experiences that they continue to kind
of be part of our storyline even when we don't
want them to be.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Yeah, that's a great question. I think there's a thousand reasons.
And I'm kind of I'm like laughing because I just
got this. I'm writing a response to someone who just
wrote to me about, you know, a friendship that broke
up fifty years ago, fifty or fifty years ago? Oh
my goodness, still hung up on and I was I
had the exact same response, and I read the email like,
what is that even possible that I.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Don't that's actually scary that I don't want that to
be made that literally exactly. I'm I thinking, because I've
got I've got fifty years left I could Yeah, I've
still got time. Like what is the things in my
life right now.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
That are going to be.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Fifty years later?
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Yeah? Yeah, And I think it's because you know number
one you mentioned a while ago about agency. We don't
think of ourselves as having agency over our stories and
over our psychology. And if we can empower ourselves to
get a little bit more knowledge that that is a
huge step forward to figuring out what we need if
we go back to memory files for a second. So
(43:27):
every memory file needs to have a story like what
happened beginning mill an end, emotional content what is the
feeling of that story? Is it funny? Was it sad?
Was it both? Whatever? And then a set of meaning
tags what is the significance? How does this fit within
your larger story arc? And I think that last piece
is I mean, you can work in a memory in
(43:49):
any of those pieces, but I think the last piece
is one of the places that leaves things open for us.
We assign the wrong significance to something, and so a breakup,
instead of becoming a learning opportunity that was really sad
and tragic but still a learning opportunity, becomes the reason
that you are, you know, disorganized detachment and the reason
(44:10):
you will always be alone. And in some sense, again
going back to the brilliance of the system, the brain
knows that that significance you've assigned is wrong, and so
it's it keeps pushing it forward and saying, you better
look at this again, you better look at this again,
and so again if you go back to noticing, like
what is coming up for yourself, what is repeatedly what
(44:33):
are you repeatedly remembering? And then instead of judging that,
asking like, Okay, what's here? Yeah, Like, so this friendship
came up that like that ended fifty years ago? What's
here for you about that?
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Yeah? And do you think it's like some so, I
you know, it's hard not to apply these to our
own experiences, right, Like we're giving me these examples that
I'm thinking about this one particular event in mind. And
do you think it's because it points to like a
deeper truth that we think we have about ourselves? Like
do you think that in that instance of that of
(45:09):
that guy, that of that man, that perhaps it's like
it's not about the friendship breakup, it's really that's kind
of a proxy for something deeper around how he feels
about himself. What do you think that that comes from?
Speaker 3 (45:23):
Yeah, I mean it's got to have significance somewhere, right,
So it's got to be that he's got I mean,
I can guess. I wish I had more more details
because I could get maybe guess more accurately. But I
would imagine that he's got a deep seated fear that
he's worried that he's a bad person, and so a
friend ghosting him without explaining it has left this open
(45:46):
wound of like, if I could just have this one
person's validation, then I would know for sure that I'm
not a bad person, which is of course falls but
like when things kind of gain an outside significance, it's
usually because there's an underlying fear or a story you're
you're telling yourself that you're or a story that's been
(46:09):
told that you're trying to distance yourself from. So maybe
he doesn't think he's a bad person, but someone has
His mom always said that, and she's maybe you know,
and so he's he's worried that that that that validates that.
There could be a thousand things, but I think usually
when something is open like that, that there is some
(46:29):
something Like I sometimes ask clients like, what's the fear
beneath the fear? Yeah, so so don't tell me rejection?
What happens if you get rejected? What does that reveal?
And usually it's something really primary, like oh my, you
know that I'm that I am evil, or that my
mother was right that I didn't deserve to live, you know,
like some horrible thing that hasn't been processed from forever ago.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Wow. And I guess bringing it back to that that
breakup example that we were using at Psychologistic, not only
has this distorted this idea of my future, but then additionally,
maybe it's pointed to the fact that you do think
you're unlovable because that's how your parents treated you, or
that because you did experience childhood bullying where you never
felt like you were quite ready to be accepted by
(47:13):
anyone else. So I just think that's so fascinating and
once again points to that holistic perspective that sometimes we
need to take when it comes to trauma, that you
cannot apply a one size fits all methodology or explanation
to everyone's individual circumstances. I think that everyone is incredibly
different and has a different narrative. As you were saying,
(47:35):
this whole idea of a storyline, I've got one. I've
got one last question for you, Okay, And this is
a question that I get all the time, and I
always I answer in a certain way, but I would
love to see how you answer. As someone who knows
more than me, I feel like that is obviously very true.
So the question is, does trauma ever go away? Can
(47:59):
I ever live a life without trauma? So I am
always like, yeah, I think, sir, But what do you think?
Speaker 3 (48:08):
It depends on what go away means? You know, like
I think, sometimes the question gets framed up can you heal?
Is healing from trauma possible? The answer to that is absolutely, yeah.
Is erasing trauma possible if that's the frame you have
on it, No, that's not possible, but it can be managed.
And the way that we can explain this is by
(48:29):
going back to those memory files. Like if I open
the file cabinet and I take out the file of
the morning that my father died, and I start talking
about it, I'm going to feel sad because it was
a sad day. That memory file has sad as the
emotional content. Right. That doesn't mean I haven't healed. That
doesn't mean that the trauma is still present, that it's
(48:52):
getting in the way of my life. If I go
to tell you the story and this happened a long
time ago. If I go to tell you the story
and I cry for three days and can't go to work,
that's a sign that the emotional content is outsized and
still needs integrating. Or if I tell you the story
and there's no emotional content. That's also a sign of
an issue. But our memory files are supposed to have feeling.
(49:14):
That's how our brains are built. And so if the
question is will I ever stop feeling, the answer is no.
But the feelings change in in the way that they
are expressed hugely when you integrate the memories. And I
(49:37):
hope that that's hopeful, because it is.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
It's so helpful. I think the thing I always think
about is around integration, like you will get better at
making this event will no longer define you. And I
think that in a lot of the things that happen
to us, especially in our twenties, right there isn't we
haven't had the diversity of experiences to see in hindsight
that you have a lot of years ahead of us.
(50:01):
But you've only really had like max like twenty nine
years of your on your late twenties, and even by then,
I feel like you're kind of encroaching on the thirty space.
But particularly people in their early twenties, right like five
years ago, you were still a child. You have no
hindsight of what five years means. You have no hindsight
around the other things that are going to take precedence
(50:23):
over the over the bad times and over the hard memories.
Like I think that's something that I really had to realize,
you know. My Yeah, I'm not gonna get into that.
I'm not gonna I'm not gonna trauma dump on this call,
but yeah, I just think about this one experience that
I had, and for a couple of years it felt
like that memory was like the core of my identity
(50:44):
and that like everything could be looped back around how
hard that was. And then suddenly, like not suddenly there
was also work, but different things began to crop up
that were really joyful and that I wanted to find
place for. And I kind of had to rearrange the
(51:04):
luggage in my brain. I had to like rearrange my
storage space and push that memory to the side a
little bit. It could no longer have like a whole
massive platform in the middle. And perhaps that's how I
that's how I see integration of is that you know
that piece of luggage is still there, but it's not
like your primary piece of luggage, or it's like I
always think about it as well in terms of like
you know, when you buy like a new T shirt
(51:25):
and you like wear that T shirt for like ages
and ages and ages, but suddenly it's going to be
replaced by your new favorite item of clothing. And it's
not that that item is still not important and still
didn't have a part of your life, isn't in your photos, but.
Speaker 3 (51:39):
The thing and nobody can ever take away the significance
that it had. Yeah, that's critical. Like you might not
wear it anymore, it might just be a memory, but
like that was, for that period of time, your favorite thing. Yeah,
you know. And I think like sometimes we resist progress
and healing because we think we can lose what we've
already lost, but you can't.
Speaker 2 (52:00):
Yeah, that's such a beautiful way to put it. Well,
I want to say thank you so much. Is there
anything else that you want to say around trauma? A misconception?
Something you think we need to know that perhaps we
haven't spoken about yet.
Speaker 3 (52:15):
I think I want a listener to know if you're
struggling with trauma and the after effects, the traces the
trauma has left, that it won't always feel like this,
that you are not alone, even if trauma has tricked
you into thinking you are, and that healing is possible.
There's so much more life to live.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
Yeah, that's such a beautiful way to put it. Thank
you so much for coming on. This is perhaps one
of my favorite conversations.
Speaker 3 (52:42):
I also feel it flattering.
Speaker 2 (52:44):
No, it was really, it was really amazing. Sometimes I
honestly was in this call being like, oh my god,
I didn't even have to pay for therapy this week.
Cancel that appointment done, like it was. Actually, I learned
so so much.
Speaker 3 (52:59):
I'm gonna I'm so bad.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
Yeah. So, Also, I really want to plug your book
because this was only like a forty five minute conversation
and there is so much more as anyone can imagine
to this topic and to this conversation. So where can
they find you? Where can they hear more from you?
Speaker 3 (53:16):
So the book is called Unbroken The Trauma Response is
Never Wrong. It's available on Amazon and anywhere you give books.
We're working on getting it into many different countries, so
it's being translated in a couple different languages. You can
find me on TikTok and Instagram. It's the same handle.
It's just mc PhD and I'm always talking about trauma
and trying to demystify the symptoms and help people heal.
Speaker 2 (53:40):
There we go something that I think we all need.
Make sure you add that to your feed. A bit
of a doctor SEUs rhyme there, but I do think
that it's something that we need to speak about more concisely,
I think, and integrate more into our conversations around what
really is trauma, what does it mean, and how can
(54:01):
we move forward around that, especially in our twenties. So
I want to say huge thank you for coming on
board just to share your wisdom.
Speaker 3 (54:09):
Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (54:11):
Yes, please come back. We will do a part two
for sure and yeah done. And as always, thank you
so much for joining us today. If you enjoyed this
podcast and feel cool to do so, please feel free
to leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
wherever you're listening right now. Really helps the show to
(54:31):
grow and reach new people. Also makes my day and
I would really appreciate it. If you have an episode
suggestion or just want to be part of the community,
please follow along at that Psychology podcast on Instagram. You
will be the first to know about new episodes, new
guests like the amazing MC, and all that is going
on behind the scenes. So thank you so much. For
(54:53):
listening and we will see you next week. One
Host
Jemma Sbeghen
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