October 17, 2021 • 32 mins
This week, we talk about narcissism and how to identify narcissists in our own lives. We talk about how their behaviours may make relationships particularly hard, the origins of this personality disorder and whether a cure is possible!
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the podcast whereby we talk through some of the big
changes and transitions of our twenties and what they mean
for our psychology. Okay, this week we're talking about narcissism
and the narcissist. You know, what better week to kind
(00:27):
of talk about this. My ex boyfriend popped up to
me in case anyone was interested, So I was like, Wow,
that kind of reminds me of a topic I haven't
covered yet. What better way to kind of take some
inspiration from my own life. Let him know him still
thinking about him, No old jokes aside. I have really
(00:48):
wanted to cover this for a while. I think it's
a really interesting personality disorder, and a lot of the
time on this show we don't really discuss I think
clinical disorders or pathological disorders. It's more like a broader
discussion of things with I think some tenuous links to
psychology and kind of jumping into it. But I really
wanted to discuss the psychology of narcissism because I think
(01:11):
that it's become a term used very frequently. It's one
of those crossovers between pop culture and psychology. That's we're
seeing a lot more of these days. Another example is
like gaslighting, People use that all the time, or saying
that someone is a narcissist is obviously at a pretty
big one, but I do think we all know someone
(01:33):
who's a narcissist. Just take a moment think about the
people in your life. Maybe self diag knows them. Maybe
you've even had thoughts that you are a narcissist. And
if you have no fear, because that probably means that
you're not, which we're going to discuss in this episode.
I think in your twenties, you are very likely to
(01:54):
encounter kind of a new breed of person as our
identities become more developed, someone who's egos a little bit
too big for their boots to hold. So if these
people exist and we're likely to encounter them, and you know, now,
twenties is probably the first time we really meet someone
that's like this and we're able to see that that's abnormal.
How do we have relationships with these people? How do
(02:15):
we interact with them, how do we work with them,
how do we date them? I also really wanted to
explore some of the misconceptions around narcissism, like I said,
it is such a popularized term, but how often do
we just use it quite flippantly without really knowing what
it actually means and whether someone actually is a narcissist,
(02:35):
whether we can call them that. So we're going to
discuss also some of the clinical implications of narcissism. So
where does it come from, this discussion that it's in
every corner of psychology. Is narcissism nature or nurture? Yeah,
that's a huge debate that's been raised for a long time,
and I don't think psychology is coming any closer to
(02:57):
finding a real answer for that. Another big question is,
you know, does narcissism have a cure and should we
deal with it? Well, there we go, brief intermission, bless me.
Anyhow does narcissism have a cure? And should we deal
with it as a mental disorder, perhaps a condition, rather
(03:17):
than just seeing it as maybe a fault of someone's character. Yeah,
just some really big questions. But I think on a
more personal note, we're going to discuss narcissism in our
own lives. What it means for someone to be a narcissist,
how they operate their behaviors, what it's like to date
someone who's a narcissist, what it's like to be around
people who are narcissist, and how to kind of escape
(03:38):
the manipulation in the charisma of a narcissist. And don't worry,
I do get the irony. I think it's kind of funny.
Like here I am, you know, making my own podcast,
like listening to the sound of my voice, and the
episode is on narcissism. But maybe I'll I don't know.
I don't think I'm a narcissist, but maybe someone will
(03:58):
think I am after listening to some of these criteria.
So buckle in because I've got a lot of energy today.
Like I said, it's been a very complicated week, and
this is a topic I really want to dig into,
so let's do it. So narcissism is extreme self involvement
to the degree that it makes a person ignore the
(04:20):
needs of those around them. So while everyone you know
may show occasional narcissistic behavior, because as my good friend
Kate says, everyone is the center of their own universe,
so it makes sense that sometimes you have self involvement.
But true narcissists they will frequently discard others feelings and
(04:42):
don't even seem to be aware of them, So they
also just do not understand the effect that their behavior
has on other people, so they're unable to comprehend how
their own self involved behaviors have first and second order consequences.
There are no physical blood tests, MRIs GP appointments, or
you know, exact biological determinations that can identify a narcissist.
(05:06):
Even therapists do just have to go on observations of
the behavior and the attitude that a person presents. There's
no like quiz like you might see people like posting
things or like BuzzFeed quiz is are like are you
a narcissist? But that's not how it works. They basically
have to just base what they're seeing in a person
off of the DSM criteria. And some of these criteria
(05:28):
include superiority and entitlement, which we've talked about, So someone
feeling like they deserve anything they would like and just
go to any means to obtain that, regardless of who
they step on. For a narcissist, like there is no
such thing as being wrong or feeling inferior. This also
kind of goes along with an exaggerated need for attention
and validation, as well as like this need to control
(05:52):
their relationships as well as their work and their own lives.
And I think the three biggest indicators though that are like, firstly,
you know, massive red flags in any relationship but also
cause a lot of interpersonal conflict and difficulty. And then
these three huge red flags related to narcissism and how
it presents in people. These are a lack of boundaries,
(06:14):
lack of responsibility for their own actions. So someone who
is a narcissist, they always blame outside events or people
or emotions for their own actions, which, oh my god,
I can relate to. That was just like this person
I used to date, and any time I'd be like, oh,
you know, probably shouldn't have treated me like that, probably
shouldn't have said that, didn't didn't really appreciate that. They'd
(06:35):
be like, oh, you know, it's just because of this
that's happened, And it's because I've because I'm suffering, it's
because of my emotions, Like, it has nothing to do
with you, has nothing to do with me not caring
about you, it has everything to do with external events.
And finally, a big red flag and a big thing
that narcissists often show is just a general lack of empathy. Yeah,
(06:57):
Like I said, like the lack of responsibility was a big,
big one for me that I think I saw in
this person that I used to date, you know, anytime
they did something wrong and we're confronted with this, they
could never see the hurt that that would cause, and
would constantly blame these external events, particularly like UNI and
stress and housing situation, so they just were unable to
(07:18):
be held accountable for how they treated others. There was
also always like an urgency to make things right so
that they could redeem themselves as the good guy, rather
than like actually taking real and honest responsibility for their actions.
But even in those situations, he only really seemed aware
of his own emotions in terms of, like he's upset me.
(07:42):
It's not that he wants me to feel better, it's
that he doesn't want to feel bad about it anymore.
And I think that's a big common misconception about narcissism,
that they can't feel emotions. They can, they can feel emotions,
but they can't see those same emotions in others. They
can recognize them, but even that maybe not as much
as a normal person or someone who was an EmPATH
(08:04):
could and although they can see emotions and others, they
can never really comprehend that the intensity that someone is
feeling an emotion might be the same intensity they would
feel that emotion, So things like anger, sadness, guilt, grief,
they can feel all these things, but they're unable to
connect the emotions they're feeling with the experiences of others.
(08:25):
This is why they also seem to have really poor
emotional regulation, you know, large up and downs, falls and
self esteem and then return to this grandiose sense of self.
Another big trait is an inability to appreciate how others
see them, and an obsession with outside perceptions and being
(08:47):
liked and in people's focus, you know, like calling yourself
a big name for example, like constantly feeling the need
to be important, starting new projects that you think will
make others like you. So they often idealize others that
represent perfection, which is kind of followed by devaluing that
very person when they are perceived to have failed them. So,
(09:09):
you know, you might have someone that this anarcissists might
have someone they really look up to, and their opinion
is just seemed so so important. In the obsession of it,
whether they like them, trying to become closer to them.
But then they're also highly dismissive of that person because
if they can't live up to the expectations they feel
that person might have for them, it's a lot easier
(09:30):
to knock that person down in your own mind than
address your own ego. Anyhow, well, all this paints a
very flattering picture. I think it's fairly obvious how so
many of these traits would make friendships and relationships with
these kinds of people fairly difficult. I think it's hard
to be emotionally attached to someone who is incapable of
(09:54):
ever relating to how you feel, and clinically as well
as chronically, they just don't care. It's not even like
they have any control over it. It's just like the
path your pathological apathy, even to those that they you
would think that they would love, and they're just so
focused on themselves that they cannot really see their partner
(10:14):
as a separate person. They tend to only see their
partner in terms of how they feel their needs or
fail to feel their needs. And on the other side
of the coin, I think often from like doing some research,
and like personal experience and just talking to people who've
had this experience, the dynamics often play out a lot
more insidiously, So you might talk about an issue and
(10:35):
your partner relates it immediately to something that happened to them,
and your story kind of fades as THEIRS takeover, or
you know, you and your partner or your boyfriend or
your girlfriend disagree and somehow you end up, you know,
second guessing yourself as if kind of descent will threaten
their whole well being. So you don't want to You
don't want to do that. You don't want to have
to face what happens when you tell them they're wrong,
(10:59):
and any needs you communicate that aren't in line with
THEIRS may just be thrown back at you as a
character floor of yourself or is something that's wrong with you.
These are just like a few examples of what a
relationship with a narcissist might look like, and I think
really importantly, falling in love can put you off balance,
(11:19):
but standing in a love that is that you trust,
and standing in a love when you know you're cad
about that firmly grounds you and an absolutely essential agreement
of any good relationship I think is like emotional safety,
Like you need to feel safe to be your authentic
self and to be happy. But it's very difficult to
(11:41):
be yourself and to feel connected to yourself when you
have such an emotionally volatile partner, which might be the
case with a narcissist. I think another really important thing,
and I read this really interesting article that was talking
about this, relationships with a person who has narcissistic traits
can and survive. They are possible if you, as the partner,
(12:03):
have good self esteem, You have strong boundaries, resources in
particularly that are valued by the narcissist patience and even
tempered personality, and also a reason to stay with them
throughout all these downfalls and faults. And I think over
time this sort of self esteem that you need to have,
(12:23):
it will acquire positive and good and strong reinforcement from
other parts of your life like work and friends, in
order to be maintained and to ensure that your relationship
with that kind of energy sucking individual can continue and
that reason to stay. I think people are attracted to
different things and confidence, motivation, power, attention, all of which
(12:48):
narcissistic partners can provide, and it can offer motivation to
someone who might be with a narcissistic partner in the
short term and the long term to stick around. But
of course it can be volatile, and it's not like
you can just tell that person to go to therapy
because it's unlikely they will believe that anything is wrong,
So it can become pretty one sided or dare we
(13:10):
say toxic, although I'm not a big fan of that word,
and I think a really good hallmark that I kind
of saw in my own relationship for realizing that things
aren't going right, that the relationship is one sided, that
it isn't healthy, is that if you wouldn't feel comfortable
telling your friends and family how someone treats you or
(13:33):
the things that they say to you, you probably shouldn't
be with them if their narcissistic traits are that pronounced.
So if you wouldn't feel comfortable telling, you know, your
best friend, oh, you know, I was really upset about this,
and he just said like, oh, he related it back
to himself and you know how hard his life is,
(13:54):
or taught me I was overreacting, or that the reason
I was sad was incorrect. If you wouldn't feel comfortable
telling your friend that your emotions or your needs were neglected,
then it's probably not something you should tolerate. And that's
what I found where I was like, oh, I don't
feel comfortable in telling my friends the extent to which
some of these things have been said to me or
how I'm being treated, because I know that they wouldn't
(14:16):
like him anymore and I want them to like him.
So it kind of became this like almost like a
like a bit of a play, I don't know, like
a like like living two lives like the one where
I was with this person who I loved, but who
had all these traits of like excessive need for attention,
a sense of self entitlement, just an excessive need to
(14:38):
be praised by others, to be liked by others. And
then I had my own life where I was trying
to just like do my own thing and be happy
and healthy and myself. I think this is a good
time to kind of jump into the clinical underpinnings of
narcissism before we kind of talk more about how to
set boundaries with these types of people. So narcissism has
(15:00):
been around as long as you know humanity has been around, really,
and the term itself comes from the story of Narcissus
in Greek mythology. Essentially, if you haven't heard the story,
but I'm pretty sure it's it's a common one, but
I'll recap it and I'll bring some some classics into
this psychology podcast. So Narcissis is the story of a
Greek hunter who is the son of a river god Cephasis,
(15:21):
and a nymph, and he's very beautiful blah blah blah,
and he rejects this really beautiful nymph called Echo, and
she walks around the forest, you know, in lamenting, mourning him.
And that's where the word echo comes from, you know,
until all that's heard of their voices is an echo.
And as punishment for his rejection of her, the god
of retribution and revenge, Nemesis, leads him to a pool
(15:44):
or a pond where he is forced to see his reflection,
and Nemesis causes him to fall in love with this reflection,
and although he doesn't really realize in the beginning that
it is just him in the face of the water,
when he comes to understands it, he falls into a
bear that his love cannot materialize, that he could never
be in love with another person as much as he
(16:06):
loves himself and he commits suicide. So hopefully we see
the links between modern day clinical narcissism and this kind
of story of self love and indulgence. But the formal
diagnosis kind of began with Freud and different schools of psychology.
They all kind of accept slightly different understandings of the
pathology of this personality disorder and where it comes from,
(16:29):
if treatment is possible, and the details of what it
really means. Firstly, let's clear this up. Narcissism it is
a disorder, as would as we would classify it like
a disorder in terms that it causes impairment. It's not normal,
it's abnormal. It's a personality disorder, and it kind of
goes without saying I would hope that diagnosable narcissism is
(16:50):
is far more complex and often more dangerous than just
mere selfish or selfishness or vanity. So we've already discussed
some of the characteristics criteria of having narcissistic personality. We've
discussed that grandiose sense of self importance, the need for
excessive admiration, entitlement, being interpersonally exploit alivilist, goes on If
(17:11):
you want to read it, you can read it in
the DSM. But there's another core element of narcissism that
must be present for a disorder to be identified. So
the essential features of any personality disorder are impairments in
self and interpersonal functioning. This is why some people have
argued that figures like Donald Trump, for example, can't be
(17:32):
labeled narcissist, even though it seems quite possible because he
doesn't seem overly impaired. You know, he became president. That
doesn't show an inability to hold down a job or
a lack of direction. And there are some key areas
where impairment is more likely, for example, impairments in self functioning,
especially in terms of self identity, and huge fluctuations in
(17:55):
self esteem and self direction. A narcissist someone who is
diagnosed as a narcissist may be unable to set goals
that are realistic or separate their goals from the approval
of others, and their personal standards are often unreasonably high
in order to maintain the idea that they are exceptional,
which can actually have the inverse effect of making them
(18:17):
quite unimpressive because the fallout from when they can't meet
excessive goals can be so dramatic. The other area where
impairment is common as an interpersonal functioning, specifically in terms
of intimacy. We've already talked about this, but relationships between
a narcissist and a regular person can be largely superficial
because they exist to serve their self esteem. Therefore, like
(18:40):
a person who is narcissistic, might experience dysfunction in their
inability to maintain a personal relationship or a long term friendship.
And other areas of impairment also relate to their excessive
attempts to attract and focus attention on themselves, and this
can cause dysfunction. For example, in a classroom amongst peers
or at work, you've got someone who always needs the
(19:01):
attention on them. They're not going to be a very
productive coworker. They're probably going to piss a lot of
people off, come off as being a bit of a
brown noser, and that can mean that it's harder for
them to get ahead actually at the end of the day,
or it's harder for them to be liked and to
be accepted in a workplace. There is once more caveat
that I found really interesting, So maybe I should explain this.
(19:23):
I think I've kind of already done it. But essentially,
if you're a psychologist or a psychiatrist and you have
someone come in, firstly, it's highly unlikely that they're going
to label themselves as a narcissist or seek help because
of their express traits that may be due to narcissism.
It's very unlikely that someone is going to come in
and say, I'm a narcissist and I think this is
a problem. They're probably going to be coming in for
(19:45):
some other form of impairment, maybe family therapy. Maybe they've
been recommended by their workplace or by their partner. But
you talk to this person, you get a sense of
their character, and if you have a suspicion that they
may be narcissistic, you apply the criteria that is in
the DSM, and depending on the disorder you're applying it to,
a person needs to meet a certain number of set
(20:06):
criteria to be diagnosed for narcissism. A person needs to
exhibit only fifty five percent of the identified characteristics to
be diagnosed with the personality disorder, and this is really
low for depression or most common anxiety, disorders you have
to meet I think like it might be like five
out of seven criteria, and two of those criteria aren't optional,
(20:28):
so you have to have had those in the past
three to twelve months to be diagnosed. But there is
one small part of the DSM when it comes to narcissism,
which says the impairments in personality functioning and the individual's
personality trade expression are not better understood as normative for
the individual socio cultural environment. This is really interesting and
(20:53):
I think really crucial because in some cultures where excessive
self confidence, a lack of empathy, and interpersonal exploitation are
coveted or celebrated, a person may not technically be deemed
a narcissist. For example, in capitalist and competitive societies. An
argument could be made that there are actually fewer rather
(21:14):
than more narcissists, because the traits can be explained and
are accepted within the socio cultural environment. Another thing about
narcissism is that you can never self diagnose, so if
you're worried that you might be a narcissist, you're probably
not one. Narcissists generally lack the kind of empathetic self
reflection that might make them wonder if they have a
(21:34):
personality disorder, and this is why narcissism is so seldom
treated and why it's really hard, maybe even impossible, to
truly quantify how many people have the disorder. So let's
kind of talk about treatment, because if it is considered
a disorder and a disruption to our relationships and our functioning,
we would hope that psychologists have some form of treatment plan.
(21:58):
Just to put it simply, no, they don't. It's such
an elusive disorder that there is no medication, no common
form of CBT or therapy to treat narcissism. One of
the most common measures that they do use is psychotherapy.
So psychotherapy is a pretty i would say, common technique
(22:18):
in psychology or if you go and see a counselor,
it's basically like, by talking about your problems, you can
kind of analyze where your behaviors come from unconsciously. So
psychotherapy can help you, if you are a narcissist, kind
of learn to relate better with others so your relationships
are more intimate and rewarding. And it also helps you
(22:40):
understand the causes of your emotions and what drives you
to compete to distrust others and perhaps to have that
weird roller coaster of self esteem and areas of change
are directed at kind of helping you accept responsibility and
learning to accept and maintain relationship in collaboration with people
(23:01):
like your coworkers, or accept your actual competence and potentials
so that you can tolerate criticisms or failures. It also
aims to kind of increase a narcissists ability to regulate
their emotions and their feelings because they can be so volatile,
and to also understand and tolerate the impact of issues
related to their self esteem. So this is kind of
(23:22):
the basis of psychotherapy and treating a narcissist, but it's
highly ineffective and has really high drop outrates. So not
only is it hard to get someone who is a
narcissist to go to therapy, but it's hard to get
them to stick around. Sometimes it can even work against
their best interests because so many of those traits that
we might despise that we see in a narcissist can
(23:45):
actually make people really successful in business and in their
careers and negotiating in a lot of areas really, so
it's still a really rich area of research if you
feel like hanging around a bunch of narcissists and trying
to teach them empathy, which is why narcissists are often
used in a lot of studies around whether empathy is
(24:06):
nature and nurture and how it can be built in people,
specifically children. That's kind of a good segue into the
nature the nurture debate around narcissism, which is such a
huge topic when it comes to most personality disorders, but
this one in particular. So the question everyone kind of
asks is how does a person become a narcissist? Because
(24:27):
we kind of want to avoid these people from showing up.
And it's a hotly disputed issue in the world of psychiatry,
and there's a wealth of theories, no kind of one
size fits or answer. But the view of this very
famous psychologist whose speciality is in this area is that
it's probably about twenty five percent constitutional or duty or
genetics or biological underpinnings, and seventy five percent is external.
(24:52):
So a narcissist doesn't necessarily come from a dysfunctional family,
but narcissism can occur because a parent or caretaker wasn't
able to provide emotional attention, or it could be the
flip side, a parent provided too much attention and the
child never learned frustration tolerance. It really depends in the
same situation can result in different outcomes for different people.
(25:14):
So contributing environmental factors that a lot of researchers kind
of found may include childhood abuse or neglect, excessive parental pampering,
unrealistic expectations from parents, sexual promiscuity. But there's often a
companies narcissism rather than causing it, and a lot of
cultural influences. So so far it kind of does seem
(25:37):
to be very environmental, but some neural models have suggested
that it is an inherited condition and have this kind
of explored the idea of a selfish gene that is
activated by parenting style. So it appears to be more
of a combination of genetics and environments. So if you
know a narcissist, as much as their behavior may annoy
(25:58):
you and hurt you, it's kind of necessary that we
recognize that it's not really their fault they often have
like's often something biologically that was there when they were
born that was then triggered that's created this personality this identity,
and it's pathological, it's chronic. They can't really do anything
about it. And I know this account sounds kind of
bizarre considering how much I've kind of shifted on people
(26:20):
who have these traits and how terrible they are in relationships,
blah blah blah blah blah. But it's one of these
confronting things that we often have to consider when looking
at personality disorders in particular, is how much is it
really that person's fault. It's part of their personality, yes,
but they also have so little control in determining this
(26:40):
outcome for themselves, and it does, at the end of
the day, cause them impairment, it can hurt their relationships.
It's not really a choice for them to have these traits,
to be a narcissist, to step on people, to not
have empathy, to be exploitative and need a lot of
attention and self entitled. But the question is how far
(27:01):
can we really stretch that logic, because then we can
kind of extend this it's not your fault claim to
any element of someone's personality and their flaws. Anyways, a
little bit of a segue. I think it's just kind
of interesting to think about that, think about where we
place personality disorders in terms of our conceptions of right
and wrong. Whether someone who is a narcissist or a
(27:23):
psychopath or a sociopath can be seen as bad or
worse than others, when really they didn't have any say
in the kind of person they turned out to be,
the way that we kind of didn't have any say,
and the way we turned out to be, and perhaps
our nicer temperaments or those that are more agreeable. Let's
(27:44):
move away from the science for a bit and kind
of conclude this episode by talking about how to cut
ties with a narcissist, which can be especially hard considering
how charismatic and powerful they can feel and the emotional
vortex they create around them. So I read up on
some tips about this. If you're maybe seeking advice, and
I'm guessing if you have listened this far, you probably
(28:06):
have some personal attachment or have identified someone in your
life who may be narcissistic, and probably want to know
how to deal with it, because oh my god, it
can be fucking exhausting. This might be extreme, but it
might be necessary, and it's a strategy that I saw
all over the place that is recommended, and it's called
(28:26):
the no contact rule, which you know you could probably
apply to a lot of people who you might deem
as a bad view or negative in your life. So
the no contact rule is a method used in order
to cut ties with a narcissist, a sociopath, or some
other form of emotional manipulator. And as the name suggests,
it's all about stopping every kind of communication with that
(28:49):
person and cutting all ties with them so that you
are unable to interact with them and they can't interact
with you. For instance, not facing the narcissist under any circumstances,
whether you're alone in public or surrounded by friends, not
calling or texting or communicating with them, blocking their phone number,
blocking their Instagram, blocking their Facebook, from any social media account.
(29:13):
In fact, maybe even deactivating your own account as well,
if you're worried that you might not be able to
resist talking to them when you definitely need a bit
of a break, And if it's a family member, this
may be harder. We can't really expect that they will
respect your decision because well, as we kind of talked
about there, and capable of respecting boundaries or understanding emotional decisions.
(29:35):
But I do think it's essential to stay firm and
don't give in if you believe that nothing has changed,
which it unlikely has, because it is a chronic condition
and this doesn't just go away. This is who this
person is. And I think surrounding yourself was like a
good support network that's advice for anything, really, and writing
a list of why you've made the decision and why
you want to stick with it. And I think the
(29:57):
opinion I always have when making these kind of hard
to having these hard talks and making the decision to
cut someone else off or end things with someone is
you'll be so much happier you've made the decision now
rather than in three months, because it's three more months
of healing time for you. Anyhow, a bit of a
weird episode, a bit of an emotional episode, a lot
(30:18):
of baggage was unpacked and put away. Honestly, I'm like
getting the feeling. I do just feel like this podcast
is like a personal therapist or like source of Catharsis
for me. So much of my personal life tends to
filter in and maybe you've noticed that in my intros.
You know what really determines these episodes is what I'm
going through in my personal life rather and things I'm
(30:41):
interested in this, I think as well, not so much
like the things I think are like that the most relevant.
Like I think, yeah, a narcissism is interesting, but there
aren't that many narcissists. You might know one, but it's
not as common as like a breakup or feeling sad
or jealousy or things like that. But yeah, it's a
really interesting topic I think to discuss, and I've mentioned
(31:03):
it's just such a rich area of research. We really
don't know much about this disorder. It's so elusive, it's
so hard to find people to study it, so hard
to get people to commit to a long term therapy
and to see whether after a certain point there is
like a cure or like a treatment for narcissism, whether
(31:24):
it's like entirely bad. How to have a relationship with
someone who's a narcissist, because you know, people do. It's
not like the whole world of single people. It's just
people who are narcissistic, like many of them will have
relationships and they might even be functional. So how do
we kind of compute that with our idea that they're
like terrible and there are all these traits that we
(31:47):
really dislike in others. So anyhow, a nice little conclusion
to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. Hope at
least it was interesting that you learned something a new
fact for the week. And yeah, thanks for listening all
the way through if you have. If you really liked
this episode, make sure you subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google,
(32:07):
wherever you're listening right now, and follow us on Instagram.
It's called twenty Psychology Podcast. You can see the awful
Instagram reels I've been making as of recent and yeah,
have a great week. I hope you enjoyed this episode,
that you learned something, and we will see you next
time for some more juicy discussions.
Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the podcast whereby we talk through some of the big
changes and transitions of our twenties and what they mean
for our psychology. Okay, this week we're talking about narcissism
and the narcissist. You know, what better week to kind
(00:27):
of talk about this. My ex boyfriend popped up to
me in case anyone was interested, So I was like, Wow,
that kind of reminds me of a topic I haven't
covered yet. What better way to kind of take some
inspiration from my own life. Let him know him still
thinking about him, No old jokes aside. I have really
(00:48):
wanted to cover this for a while. I think it's
a really interesting personality disorder, and a lot of the
time on this show we don't really discuss I think
clinical disorders or pathological disorders. It's more like a broader
discussion of things with I think some tenuous links to
psychology and kind of jumping into it. But I really
wanted to discuss the psychology of narcissism because I think
(01:11):
that it's become a term used very frequently. It's one
of those crossovers between pop culture and psychology. That's we're
seeing a lot more of these days. Another example is
like gaslighting, People use that all the time, or saying
that someone is a narcissist is obviously at a pretty
big one, but I do think we all know someone
(01:33):
who's a narcissist. Just take a moment think about the
people in your life. Maybe self diag knows them. Maybe
you've even had thoughts that you are a narcissist. And
if you have no fear, because that probably means that
you're not, which we're going to discuss in this episode.
I think in your twenties, you are very likely to
(01:54):
encounter kind of a new breed of person as our
identities become more developed, someone who's egos a little bit
too big for their boots to hold. So if these
people exist and we're likely to encounter them, and you know, now,
twenties is probably the first time we really meet someone
that's like this and we're able to see that that's abnormal.
How do we have relationships with these people? How do
(02:15):
we interact with them, how do we work with them,
how do we date them? I also really wanted to
explore some of the misconceptions around narcissism, like I said,
it is such a popularized term, but how often do
we just use it quite flippantly without really knowing what
it actually means and whether someone actually is a narcissist,
(02:35):
whether we can call them that. So we're going to
discuss also some of the clinical implications of narcissism. So
where does it come from, this discussion that it's in
every corner of psychology. Is narcissism nature or nurture? Yeah,
that's a huge debate that's been raised for a long time,
and I don't think psychology is coming any closer to
(02:57):
finding a real answer for that. Another big question is,
you know, does narcissism have a cure and should we
deal with it? Well, there we go, brief intermission, bless me.
Anyhow does narcissism have a cure? And should we deal
with it as a mental disorder, perhaps a condition, rather
(03:17):
than just seeing it as maybe a fault of someone's character. Yeah,
just some really big questions. But I think on a
more personal note, we're going to discuss narcissism in our
own lives. What it means for someone to be a narcissist,
how they operate their behaviors, what it's like to date
someone who's a narcissist, what it's like to be around
people who are narcissist, and how to kind of escape
(03:38):
the manipulation in the charisma of a narcissist. And don't worry,
I do get the irony. I think it's kind of funny.
Like here I am, you know, making my own podcast,
like listening to the sound of my voice, and the
episode is on narcissism. But maybe I'll I don't know.
I don't think I'm a narcissist, but maybe someone will
(03:58):
think I am after listening to some of these criteria.
So buckle in because I've got a lot of energy today.
Like I said, it's been a very complicated week, and
this is a topic I really want to dig into,
so let's do it. So narcissism is extreme self involvement
to the degree that it makes a person ignore the
(04:20):
needs of those around them. So while everyone you know
may show occasional narcissistic behavior, because as my good friend
Kate says, everyone is the center of their own universe,
so it makes sense that sometimes you have self involvement.
But true narcissists they will frequently discard others feelings and
(04:42):
don't even seem to be aware of them, So they
also just do not understand the effect that their behavior
has on other people, so they're unable to comprehend how
their own self involved behaviors have first and second order consequences.
There are no physical blood tests, MRIs GP appointments, or
you know, exact biological determinations that can identify a narcissist.
(05:06):
Even therapists do just have to go on observations of
the behavior and the attitude that a person presents. There's
no like quiz like you might see people like posting
things or like BuzzFeed quiz is are like are you
a narcissist? But that's not how it works. They basically
have to just base what they're seeing in a person
off of the DSM criteria. And some of these criteria
(05:28):
include superiority and entitlement, which we've talked about, So someone
feeling like they deserve anything they would like and just
go to any means to obtain that, regardless of who
they step on. For a narcissist, like there is no
such thing as being wrong or feeling inferior. This also
kind of goes along with an exaggerated need for attention
and validation, as well as like this need to control
(05:52):
their relationships as well as their work and their own lives.
And I think the three biggest indicators though that are like, firstly,
you know, massive red flags in any relationship but also
cause a lot of interpersonal conflict and difficulty. And then
these three huge red flags related to narcissism and how
it presents in people. These are a lack of boundaries,
(06:14):
lack of responsibility for their own actions. So someone who
is a narcissist, they always blame outside events or people
or emotions for their own actions, which, oh my god,
I can relate to. That was just like this person
I used to date, and any time I'd be like, oh,
you know, probably shouldn't have treated me like that, probably
shouldn't have said that, didn't didn't really appreciate that. They'd
(06:35):
be like, oh, you know, it's just because of this
that's happened, And it's because I've because I'm suffering, it's
because of my emotions, Like, it has nothing to do
with you, has nothing to do with me not caring
about you, it has everything to do with external events.
And finally, a big red flag and a big thing
that narcissists often show is just a general lack of empathy. Yeah,
(06:57):
Like I said, like the lack of responsibility was a big,
big one for me that I think I saw in
this person that I used to date, you know, anytime
they did something wrong and we're confronted with this, they
could never see the hurt that that would cause, and
would constantly blame these external events, particularly like UNI and
stress and housing situation, so they just were unable to
(07:18):
be held accountable for how they treated others. There was
also always like an urgency to make things right so
that they could redeem themselves as the good guy, rather
than like actually taking real and honest responsibility for their actions.
But even in those situations, he only really seemed aware
of his own emotions in terms of, like he's upset me.
(07:42):
It's not that he wants me to feel better, it's
that he doesn't want to feel bad about it anymore.
And I think that's a big common misconception about narcissism,
that they can't feel emotions. They can, they can feel emotions,
but they can't see those same emotions in others. They
can recognize them, but even that maybe not as much
as a normal person or someone who was an EmPATH
(08:04):
could and although they can see emotions and others, they
can never really comprehend that the intensity that someone is
feeling an emotion might be the same intensity they would
feel that emotion, So things like anger, sadness, guilt, grief,
they can feel all these things, but they're unable to
connect the emotions they're feeling with the experiences of others.
(08:25):
This is why they also seem to have really poor
emotional regulation, you know, large up and downs, falls and
self esteem and then return to this grandiose sense of self.
Another big trait is an inability to appreciate how others
see them, and an obsession with outside perceptions and being
(08:47):
liked and in people's focus, you know, like calling yourself
a big name for example, like constantly feeling the need
to be important, starting new projects that you think will
make others like you. So they often idealize others that
represent perfection, which is kind of followed by devaluing that
very person when they are perceived to have failed them. So,
(09:09):
you know, you might have someone that this anarcissists might
have someone they really look up to, and their opinion
is just seemed so so important. In the obsession of it,
whether they like them, trying to become closer to them.
But then they're also highly dismissive of that person because
if they can't live up to the expectations they feel
that person might have for them, it's a lot easier
(09:30):
to knock that person down in your own mind than
address your own ego. Anyhow, well, all this paints a
very flattering picture. I think it's fairly obvious how so
many of these traits would make friendships and relationships with
these kinds of people fairly difficult. I think it's hard
to be emotionally attached to someone who is incapable of
(09:54):
ever relating to how you feel, and clinically as well
as chronically, they just don't care. It's not even like
they have any control over it. It's just like the
path your pathological apathy, even to those that they you
would think that they would love, and they're just so
focused on themselves that they cannot really see their partner
(10:14):
as a separate person. They tend to only see their
partner in terms of how they feel their needs or
fail to feel their needs. And on the other side
of the coin, I think often from like doing some research,
and like personal experience and just talking to people who've
had this experience, the dynamics often play out a lot
more insidiously, So you might talk about an issue and
(10:35):
your partner relates it immediately to something that happened to them,
and your story kind of fades as THEIRS takeover, or
you know, you and your partner or your boyfriend or
your girlfriend disagree and somehow you end up, you know,
second guessing yourself as if kind of descent will threaten
their whole well being. So you don't want to You
don't want to do that. You don't want to have
to face what happens when you tell them they're wrong,
(10:59):
and any needs you communicate that aren't in line with
THEIRS may just be thrown back at you as a
character floor of yourself or is something that's wrong with you.
These are just like a few examples of what a
relationship with a narcissist might look like, and I think
really importantly, falling in love can put you off balance,
(11:19):
but standing in a love that is that you trust,
and standing in a love when you know you're cad
about that firmly grounds you and an absolutely essential agreement
of any good relationship I think is like emotional safety,
Like you need to feel safe to be your authentic
self and to be happy. But it's very difficult to
(11:41):
be yourself and to feel connected to yourself when you
have such an emotionally volatile partner, which might be the
case with a narcissist. I think another really important thing,
and I read this really interesting article that was talking
about this, relationships with a person who has narcissistic traits
can and survive. They are possible if you, as the partner,
(12:03):
have good self esteem, You have strong boundaries, resources in
particularly that are valued by the narcissist patience and even
tempered personality, and also a reason to stay with them
throughout all these downfalls and faults. And I think over
time this sort of self esteem that you need to have,
(12:23):
it will acquire positive and good and strong reinforcement from
other parts of your life like work and friends, in
order to be maintained and to ensure that your relationship
with that kind of energy sucking individual can continue and
that reason to stay. I think people are attracted to
different things and confidence, motivation, power, attention, all of which
(12:48):
narcissistic partners can provide, and it can offer motivation to
someone who might be with a narcissistic partner in the
short term and the long term to stick around. But
of course it can be volatile, and it's not like
you can just tell that person to go to therapy
because it's unlikely they will believe that anything is wrong,
So it can become pretty one sided or dare we
(13:10):
say toxic, although I'm not a big fan of that word,
and I think a really good hallmark that I kind
of saw in my own relationship for realizing that things
aren't going right, that the relationship is one sided, that
it isn't healthy, is that if you wouldn't feel comfortable
telling your friends and family how someone treats you or
(13:33):
the things that they say to you, you probably shouldn't
be with them if their narcissistic traits are that pronounced.
So if you wouldn't feel comfortable telling, you know, your
best friend, oh, you know, I was really upset about this,
and he just said like, oh, he related it back
to himself and you know how hard his life is,
(13:54):
or taught me I was overreacting, or that the reason
I was sad was incorrect. If you wouldn't feel comfortable
telling your friend that your emotions or your needs were neglected,
then it's probably not something you should tolerate. And that's
what I found where I was like, oh, I don't
feel comfortable in telling my friends the extent to which
some of these things have been said to me or
how I'm being treated, because I know that they wouldn't
(14:16):
like him anymore and I want them to like him.
So it kind of became this like almost like a
like a bit of a play, I don't know, like
a like like living two lives like the one where
I was with this person who I loved, but who
had all these traits of like excessive need for attention,
a sense of self entitlement, just an excessive need to
(14:38):
be praised by others, to be liked by others. And
then I had my own life where I was trying
to just like do my own thing and be happy
and healthy and myself. I think this is a good
time to kind of jump into the clinical underpinnings of
narcissism before we kind of talk more about how to
set boundaries with these types of people. So narcissism has
(15:00):
been around as long as you know humanity has been around, really,
and the term itself comes from the story of Narcissus
in Greek mythology. Essentially, if you haven't heard the story,
but I'm pretty sure it's it's a common one, but
I'll recap it and I'll bring some some classics into
this psychology podcast. So Narcissis is the story of a
Greek hunter who is the son of a river god Cephasis,
(15:21):
and a nymph, and he's very beautiful blah blah blah,
and he rejects this really beautiful nymph called Echo, and
she walks around the forest, you know, in lamenting, mourning him.
And that's where the word echo comes from, you know,
until all that's heard of their voices is an echo.
And as punishment for his rejection of her, the god
of retribution and revenge, Nemesis, leads him to a pool
(15:44):
or a pond where he is forced to see his reflection,
and Nemesis causes him to fall in love with this reflection,
and although he doesn't really realize in the beginning that
it is just him in the face of the water,
when he comes to understands it, he falls into a
bear that his love cannot materialize, that he could never
be in love with another person as much as he
(16:06):
loves himself and he commits suicide. So hopefully we see
the links between modern day clinical narcissism and this kind
of story of self love and indulgence. But the formal
diagnosis kind of began with Freud and different schools of psychology.
They all kind of accept slightly different understandings of the
pathology of this personality disorder and where it comes from,
(16:29):
if treatment is possible, and the details of what it
really means. Firstly, let's clear this up. Narcissism it is
a disorder, as would as we would classify it like
a disorder in terms that it causes impairment. It's not normal,
it's abnormal. It's a personality disorder, and it kind of
goes without saying I would hope that diagnosable narcissism is
(16:50):
is far more complex and often more dangerous than just
mere selfish or selfishness or vanity. So we've already discussed
some of the characteristics criteria of having narcissistic personality. We've
discussed that grandiose sense of self importance, the need for
excessive admiration, entitlement, being interpersonally exploit alivilist, goes on If
(17:11):
you want to read it, you can read it in
the DSM. But there's another core element of narcissism that
must be present for a disorder to be identified. So
the essential features of any personality disorder are impairments in
self and interpersonal functioning. This is why some people have
argued that figures like Donald Trump, for example, can't be
(17:32):
labeled narcissist, even though it seems quite possible because he
doesn't seem overly impaired. You know, he became president. That
doesn't show an inability to hold down a job or
a lack of direction. And there are some key areas
where impairment is more likely, for example, impairments in self functioning,
especially in terms of self identity, and huge fluctuations in
(17:55):
self esteem and self direction. A narcissist someone who is
diagnosed as a narcissist may be unable to set goals
that are realistic or separate their goals from the approval
of others, and their personal standards are often unreasonably high
in order to maintain the idea that they are exceptional,
which can actually have the inverse effect of making them
(18:17):
quite unimpressive because the fallout from when they can't meet
excessive goals can be so dramatic. The other area where
impairment is common as an interpersonal functioning, specifically in terms
of intimacy. We've already talked about this, but relationships between
a narcissist and a regular person can be largely superficial
because they exist to serve their self esteem. Therefore, like
(18:40):
a person who is narcissistic, might experience dysfunction in their
inability to maintain a personal relationship or a long term friendship.
And other areas of impairment also relate to their excessive
attempts to attract and focus attention on themselves, and this
can cause dysfunction. For example, in a classroom amongst peers
or at work, you've got someone who always needs the
(19:01):
attention on them. They're not going to be a very
productive coworker. They're probably going to piss a lot of
people off, come off as being a bit of a
brown noser, and that can mean that it's harder for
them to get ahead actually at the end of the day,
or it's harder for them to be liked and to
be accepted in a workplace. There is once more caveat
that I found really interesting, So maybe I should explain this.
(19:23):
I think I've kind of already done it. But essentially,
if you're a psychologist or a psychiatrist and you have
someone come in, firstly, it's highly unlikely that they're going
to label themselves as a narcissist or seek help because
of their express traits that may be due to narcissism.
It's very unlikely that someone is going to come in
and say, I'm a narcissist and I think this is
a problem. They're probably going to be coming in for
(19:45):
some other form of impairment, maybe family therapy. Maybe they've
been recommended by their workplace or by their partner. But
you talk to this person, you get a sense of
their character, and if you have a suspicion that they
may be narcissistic, you apply the criteria that is in
the DSM, and depending on the disorder you're applying it to,
a person needs to meet a certain number of set
(20:06):
criteria to be diagnosed for narcissism. A person needs to
exhibit only fifty five percent of the identified characteristics to
be diagnosed with the personality disorder, and this is really
low for depression or most common anxiety, disorders you have
to meet I think like it might be like five
out of seven criteria, and two of those criteria aren't optional,
(20:28):
so you have to have had those in the past
three to twelve months to be diagnosed. But there is
one small part of the DSM when it comes to narcissism,
which says the impairments in personality functioning and the individual's
personality trade expression are not better understood as normative for
the individual socio cultural environment. This is really interesting and
(20:53):
I think really crucial because in some cultures where excessive
self confidence, a lack of empathy, and interpersonal exploitation are
coveted or celebrated, a person may not technically be deemed
a narcissist. For example, in capitalist and competitive societies. An
argument could be made that there are actually fewer rather
(21:14):
than more narcissists, because the traits can be explained and
are accepted within the socio cultural environment. Another thing about
narcissism is that you can never self diagnose, so if
you're worried that you might be a narcissist, you're probably
not one. Narcissists generally lack the kind of empathetic self
reflection that might make them wonder if they have a
(21:34):
personality disorder, and this is why narcissism is so seldom
treated and why it's really hard, maybe even impossible, to
truly quantify how many people have the disorder. So let's
kind of talk about treatment, because if it is considered
a disorder and a disruption to our relationships and our functioning,
we would hope that psychologists have some form of treatment plan.
(21:58):
Just to put it simply, no, they don't. It's such
an elusive disorder that there is no medication, no common
form of CBT or therapy to treat narcissism. One of
the most common measures that they do use is psychotherapy.
So psychotherapy is a pretty i would say, common technique
(22:18):
in psychology or if you go and see a counselor,
it's basically like, by talking about your problems, you can
kind of analyze where your behaviors come from unconsciously. So
psychotherapy can help you, if you are a narcissist, kind
of learn to relate better with others so your relationships
are more intimate and rewarding. And it also helps you
(22:40):
understand the causes of your emotions and what drives you
to compete to distrust others and perhaps to have that
weird roller coaster of self esteem and areas of change
are directed at kind of helping you accept responsibility and
learning to accept and maintain relationship in collaboration with people
(23:01):
like your coworkers, or accept your actual competence and potentials
so that you can tolerate criticisms or failures. It also
aims to kind of increase a narcissists ability to regulate
their emotions and their feelings because they can be so volatile,
and to also understand and tolerate the impact of issues
related to their self esteem. So this is kind of
(23:22):
the basis of psychotherapy and treating a narcissist, but it's
highly ineffective and has really high drop outrates. So not
only is it hard to get someone who is a
narcissist to go to therapy, but it's hard to get
them to stick around. Sometimes it can even work against
their best interests because so many of those traits that
we might despise that we see in a narcissist can
(23:45):
actually make people really successful in business and in their
careers and negotiating in a lot of areas really, so
it's still a really rich area of research if you
feel like hanging around a bunch of narcissists and trying
to teach them empathy, which is why narcissists are often
used in a lot of studies around whether empathy is
(24:06):
nature and nurture and how it can be built in people,
specifically children. That's kind of a good segue into the
nature the nurture debate around narcissism, which is such a
huge topic when it comes to most personality disorders, but
this one in particular. So the question everyone kind of
asks is how does a person become a narcissist? Because
(24:27):
we kind of want to avoid these people from showing up.
And it's a hotly disputed issue in the world of psychiatry,
and there's a wealth of theories, no kind of one
size fits or answer. But the view of this very
famous psychologist whose speciality is in this area is that
it's probably about twenty five percent constitutional or duty or
genetics or biological underpinnings, and seventy five percent is external.
(24:52):
So a narcissist doesn't necessarily come from a dysfunctional family,
but narcissism can occur because a parent or caretaker wasn't
able to provide emotional attention, or it could be the
flip side, a parent provided too much attention and the
child never learned frustration tolerance. It really depends in the
same situation can result in different outcomes for different people.
(25:14):
So contributing environmental factors that a lot of researchers kind
of found may include childhood abuse or neglect, excessive parental pampering,
unrealistic expectations from parents, sexual promiscuity. But there's often a
companies narcissism rather than causing it, and a lot of
cultural influences. So so far it kind of does seem
(25:37):
to be very environmental, but some neural models have suggested
that it is an inherited condition and have this kind
of explored the idea of a selfish gene that is
activated by parenting style. So it appears to be more
of a combination of genetics and environments. So if you
know a narcissist, as much as their behavior may annoy
(25:58):
you and hurt you, it's kind of necessary that we
recognize that it's not really their fault they often have
like's often something biologically that was there when they were
born that was then triggered that's created this personality this identity,
and it's pathological, it's chronic. They can't really do anything
about it. And I know this account sounds kind of
bizarre considering how much I've kind of shifted on people
(26:20):
who have these traits and how terrible they are in relationships,
blah blah blah blah blah. But it's one of these
confronting things that we often have to consider when looking
at personality disorders in particular, is how much is it
really that person's fault. It's part of their personality, yes,
but they also have so little control in determining this
(26:40):
outcome for themselves, and it does, at the end of
the day, cause them impairment, it can hurt their relationships.
It's not really a choice for them to have these traits,
to be a narcissist, to step on people, to not
have empathy, to be exploitative and need a lot of
attention and self entitled. But the question is how far
(27:01):
can we really stretch that logic, because then we can
kind of extend this it's not your fault claim to
any element of someone's personality and their flaws. Anyways, a
little bit of a segue. I think it's just kind
of interesting to think about that, think about where we
place personality disorders in terms of our conceptions of right
and wrong. Whether someone who is a narcissist or a
(27:23):
psychopath or a sociopath can be seen as bad or
worse than others, when really they didn't have any say
in the kind of person they turned out to be,
the way that we kind of didn't have any say,
and the way we turned out to be, and perhaps
our nicer temperaments or those that are more agreeable. Let's
(27:44):
move away from the science for a bit and kind
of conclude this episode by talking about how to cut
ties with a narcissist, which can be especially hard considering
how charismatic and powerful they can feel and the emotional
vortex they create around them. So I read up on
some tips about this. If you're maybe seeking advice, and
I'm guessing if you have listened this far, you probably
(28:06):
have some personal attachment or have identified someone in your
life who may be narcissistic, and probably want to know
how to deal with it, because oh my god, it
can be fucking exhausting. This might be extreme, but it
might be necessary, and it's a strategy that I saw
all over the place that is recommended, and it's called
(28:26):
the no contact rule, which you know you could probably
apply to a lot of people who you might deem
as a bad view or negative in your life. So
the no contact rule is a method used in order
to cut ties with a narcissist, a sociopath, or some
other form of emotional manipulator. And as the name suggests,
it's all about stopping every kind of communication with that
(28:49):
person and cutting all ties with them so that you
are unable to interact with them and they can't interact
with you. For instance, not facing the narcissist under any circumstances,
whether you're alone in public or surrounded by friends, not
calling or texting or communicating with them, blocking their phone number,
blocking their Instagram, blocking their Facebook, from any social media account.
(29:13):
In fact, maybe even deactivating your own account as well,
if you're worried that you might not be able to
resist talking to them when you definitely need a bit
of a break, And if it's a family member, this
may be harder. We can't really expect that they will
respect your decision because well, as we kind of talked
about there, and capable of respecting boundaries or understanding emotional decisions.
(29:35):
But I do think it's essential to stay firm and
don't give in if you believe that nothing has changed,
which it unlikely has, because it is a chronic condition
and this doesn't just go away. This is who this
person is. And I think surrounding yourself was like a
good support network that's advice for anything, really, and writing
a list of why you've made the decision and why
you want to stick with it. And I think the
(29:57):
opinion I always have when making these kind of hard
to having these hard talks and making the decision to
cut someone else off or end things with someone is
you'll be so much happier you've made the decision now
rather than in three months, because it's three more months
of healing time for you. Anyhow, a bit of a
weird episode, a bit of an emotional episode, a lot
(30:18):
of baggage was unpacked and put away. Honestly, I'm like
getting the feeling. I do just feel like this podcast
is like a personal therapist or like source of Catharsis
for me. So much of my personal life tends to
filter in and maybe you've noticed that in my intros.
You know what really determines these episodes is what I'm
going through in my personal life rather and things I'm
(30:41):
interested in this, I think as well, not so much
like the things I think are like that the most relevant.
Like I think, yeah, a narcissism is interesting, but there
aren't that many narcissists. You might know one, but it's
not as common as like a breakup or feeling sad
or jealousy or things like that. But yeah, it's a
really interesting topic I think to discuss, and I've mentioned
(31:03):
it's just such a rich area of research. We really
don't know much about this disorder. It's so elusive, it's
so hard to find people to study it, so hard
to get people to commit to a long term therapy
and to see whether after a certain point there is
like a cure or like a treatment for narcissism, whether
(31:24):
it's like entirely bad. How to have a relationship with
someone who's a narcissist, because you know, people do. It's
not like the whole world of single people. It's just
people who are narcissistic, like many of them will have
relationships and they might even be functional. So how do
we kind of compute that with our idea that they're
like terrible and there are all these traits that we
(31:47):
really dislike in others. So anyhow, a nice little conclusion
to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. Hope at
least it was interesting that you learned something a new
fact for the week. And yeah, thanks for listening all
the way through if you have. If you really liked
this episode, make sure you subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google,
(32:07):
wherever you're listening right now, and follow us on Instagram.
It's called twenty Psychology Podcast. You can see the awful
Instagram reels I've been making as of recent and yeah,
have a great week. I hope you enjoyed this episode,
that you learned something, and we will see you next
time for some more juicy discussions.
Host
Jemma Sbeghen
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