December 8, 2023 • 50 mins
Often when we think about sex, we only think about the physical. We only think about the other person's enjoyment or what sex should look like rather than what it could look like. Many of us have a very outdated understanding of what good, even great sex feels like and even less of an idea around how to achieve greater levels of pleasure and intimacy.
In today's episode, we bring on the incredible Gina Gutierrez, co-founder of the audio erotica app, Dipsea to discuss how we can use story telling, fantasy, self exploration and mental imagery to have better sex in our 20s. We uncover the psychology behind why we love romance novels, how libido and desire changes (and improves) as we reach our 30s and some of the outdated, misconceptions about sex that we need to debunk. Listen now!
For 30 days of Dipsea for FREE follow this link: https://www.dipseastories.com/PSYCH20
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the podcast where we talk through some of the big
life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.
(00:26):
Welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, wherever
you are in the world. Thank you so much for
joining us for another episode. Today is one that I
am super super excited about. Something that we don't talk
about a lot on this show is sex and pleasure
and I think that it is really important to discuss.
(00:48):
So I don't know why we haven't spoken about it before,
but when I heard about this company a couple of
years ago, I immediately downloaded their app. It's an amazing
experience and additionally, I think really aligns with a lot
of the values we promote on this show. We talk
a lot about psychology, obviously, and I think, like everything
(01:10):
in our twenties, sex in our twenties is also based
in a lot of psychology. So today we are going
to talk about it, and I've brought on a wonderful,
fabulous guest to join us. One of the co founders
of Dipsy, Gina Gutierrez.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Hi, wow, I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Yeah, thanks for coming along. Can you kind of talk
us through what we're talking about today, but also what
dipsy is, because I think one of the big things
about sex in our twenties is that we kind of
don't really have like a guidebook. We kind of just
go all in. No one's really telling us what to do,
and we can feel quite disconnected. So where does kind
(01:53):
of dipsy sit in that kind of space?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, So dipsy is an app for audio erotica and
the stories are all original and we write them ourselves
in studio. Their sex positive, they're feminist, they're really fun,
and they show what sex could kind of be like
realistically but also really aspirationally. And it's obviously fifteen minutes
(02:16):
of fun when you're listening to an episode, but they're
also amazing to hear how sex could happen, or what
you might say, or what a date could be like
that you might really want to be on, or how
you might enter a sex club for the first time.
Right Like, they actually do teach you a little bit
about how you might experience things in your own life,
and we love that. We love creating a guidebook in
a world where there are not a lot of guidebooks.
(02:36):
So Dipsy is a brainchild of kind of the combination
of what sexual wellness experience could feel like and also
like a really great storytelling studio could feel like. And
it is both.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah, and where did you get the idea from? So
if you haven't kind of dipped your toes into audio erotica,
I think it's amazing. Obviously, as someone who works in
like the audio space, I think stories and like really
provide us with an insane ability to firstly be educated,
but also to connect not just with others but with ourselves. So, yeah,
(03:12):
where did you get this idea from? Because I think
it's like so smart.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Well, thank you. So my co founder and I started
the company when we were twenty seven, and I'd been
thinking about these ideas since I was in college, so
since I was eighteen. And I remember one of my
really good friends coming back to our dorm and she
had just had sex the night before with this guy
that she was really into. She came back and she
was like, I really like him, but I just the
sex isn't that good. Why wouldn't that just be automatic?
(03:38):
If I really like him, shouldn't the sex be good?
So I started asking her questions about the experience. And
when I asked her the question what are you thinking
about when you're having sex? She looked at me with
this blank stare and she was like, Wow, I really
don't know. And something about that moment really struck me
that she was so focused on her physical experience, she
(04:01):
wasn't thinking about her mental experience at all. So I
think many of us understand our brains holding us back
from good sex. It's like I'm stressed out, so that
makes my sex drive lower, or I'm preoccupied by a
conversation I had earlier, and so I'm kind of dissociated,
or I'm overly focused on what I look like or
what I'm doing, or I'm you know, struggling in all
(04:21):
these ways. These are actually like psychological barriers, but we're
really not focused on what ways our brain could really
support us and having amazing sex. And so, how do
we have our own bank a fantasy that we lean on,
And how do we have language that we use that
we like to hear and guide someone in giving more
to us, or that we like to say because we
like to say it, And these are these amazing unlocks
(04:44):
that really make sex so much better, and storytelling is
such an amazing space for that. But the reason that
we started it when we were twenty seven is because
common Headspace were coming up, and common Headspace we're showing
that you could make an amazing audio experience that was
super immersive, and that wasn't there just to teach you
something like podcasts were doing at the time, but to
(05:05):
change how you felt. And I firmly believe that storytelling
can change how you feel. And I really wanted to
make stories I feel like that, and I had this
hunch that audio Erotica could really be this amazing immersive
experience that was imagination forward, so you could imagine kind
of your own house on the blueprint that we were
giving you with our stories, what characters looked and sounded like,
(05:26):
what you looked and sounded like that in that story
where you were how it all comes together is really
up to you to create. And there's something really really
powerful about that that I think is really really empowering.
You really are in control.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yeah, I absolutely love that and totally fully agree. I
really think it's fascinating what you said around how we
recognize the intersections between our mental framework and our psychology
and the sex we're having, but we don't recognize it
in the moment, right. We think about it as a barrier,
not as an enabler. So how can we kind of
(06:02):
leverage that understanding of how our mind's working and how
our psychology impacts our physical sensations to have good sex
in our twenties. I think that's like the golden question
that I get asked so much. It's like countless episodes
podcast about this, you know, articles people want to know
(06:23):
how to have good sex in their twenties.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yeah. Well, I think first of all, it's answering what
good sex is like. What makes sex good? I think
is a question we don't often ask ourselves, and I
think it's a very personal question. And what I would
encourage people to think about is start noticing what feels
good to you across all avenues of your life. And
what I mean by that is, I think we have
these stories or ideas of what feels good, like binge
(06:45):
watching my favorite show feels good, or seeing this group
of friends feels good. But then when you do binge
watch that show or you do see the group of friends,
you're turning off the TV, you're driving home, and you're
thinking like, ooh, I'm kind of tired, or I'm kind
of just like feeling a little dick, or I'm feeling
a little bit out of my body. It's really interesting
to notice that these things we might have stories about
that make us feel good actually don't make us feel good.
(07:07):
On the other hand, there are many things that you
might do that really surprise you with how good they feel.
Maybe there's a new friend that you're spending time with
and every time you leave them and you're like, wow,
I feel energized, I feel excited, I feel like I laughed,
I feel like I was funny, whatever, and you notice
that and it feels good. And so I think it's
a really good place to start with just being like,
listen to the signals of your body of like, this
feels good. I would like more of this where this
(07:27):
actually doesn't feel good, and you might be surprised by
what some of those things are. I think we're very distracted.
We have screens all around us, we're moving from place
to place, we're busy with our jobs, and if we
aren't listening to those signals, how can we listen to
what those signals might be like in the bedroom. So
that's like baseline where I start. Yeah, I think solo
(07:48):
sex is also kind of where to start. I mean,
the American sex education system certainly doesn't talk about masturbation
the way I think it should be talked about, where
it's a really by default safe place for you to
explore what kind of touch you like, what you like,
to fantasize about pacing order. You know, you get to
start thinking through what your ropes are. You know, your
(08:10):
own ropes, and I don't know. I think especially I
hear this at dipsy with heterosexual women who are in
partnerships with men who kind of almost assume that men
come pre coded with knowledge about sex. And I can
guarantee you that no one comes pre coded with that.
But men often have the guidebook of porn and that
(08:31):
comes with the whole mixed set of messages, some maybe
interesting and some really harmful. And so if he or
they or she is coming with their own ideas of
what sex is and what good sex is, you too
need to come to the table with your ideas of
what good sex is. You feel empowered in that, and
you can stand firm in that, and the only way
you can really do that, I think is by exploring
(08:51):
just by yourself. And so I think like round one,
like step one is what does the self touch or
the solo sex experience feel.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Like, Yeah, I again, I just keep powerting it. Exactly
what you're saying. I really really agree with that. It's
really interesting because when I first started having sex, like
in my teen years and then even in my like
very early twenties, I used to just like define sex
as like penetration. And I was literally talking to someone
(09:22):
about this yesterday, where I was like I used to
be like, all right, it's good sex if like it's
penetrative and he comes totally and nothing else matters because
it's all about like pleasuring them. And it's so interesting
because I think when I started to be like really
(09:42):
move into this like self exploration phase, I bought a vibrator.
It's the best thing I ever probably the best seventy
dollars I ever spent. And then suddenly it was like
not only was I having better sex, but I was
attracting better partners. And I think it also came from
this like confidence thing as well, in this like sense
(10:04):
of self of like, Wow, I am having better sex
with myself than I've ever had with someone else, So
I only want someone to elevate that experience.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, I think if you talk to the average I mean,
maybe this is a little ageist, but I think if
you talk to the average forty or fifty year old
about sex being this playground to discover who you are
and how confident you can be in this world and
how much you love yourself, they'd be like, yeah, yah, yeah, yeah.
I think if you say that to a younger person,
they're more likely to be like, yeah, totally, Like this
is this underused space where if I have some more,
(10:38):
if I pay more attention to what I can do
in this space, I might like take that with me
out in the world. And I think when people listen
to Dipsey they sometimes say that, They'll say, like, I
don't even need to listen right before I have sex.
Sometimes I just walk out the street and I'm like
I'm walking with like a skip in my step. I'm
feeling good. I'm like bouncing down the sidewalk, I'm smiling
at strangers like that. Feeling feels like feeling alive. So
(10:58):
I think sex is just one way to be like,
how can I like really feel alive and here in
this world? And that's I mean, like that's so worthwhile,
you know, Like that's that's it right there in my mind.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, And I think that kind of gets to this
point right where it's like you don't need to be
I think you don't need to be having sex to
be experiencing pleasure. I think we often put sex on
this pedestal. There's this weird conondrum I've found where there's
like this shame around having sex. But it used to
(11:30):
be a lot of shame around having too much sex.
And now I hear a lot of people, see a
lot of people with my personal life through this podcast
who come to me and are like, I'm experiencing a
lot of self shame because I'm having too little Yeah. Classic, Yeah,
because I feel like everyone is selling sex to me?
Is this like empowering thing? And that I need to
have all of these sexual experiences in my twenties to
(11:53):
like form the foundation of you know, having good sex
in my third days or like having these stories. Where
do you think that comes from? Because that's something I'm
really fascinated by.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
There are so many shoulds in this space. It's incredible,
and I think it's really interesting to me how numbers
obsessed we are about sex. We like really try and
quantify it, like how many times a week is normal?
What's healthy? What's good for my relationship? And what it
all boils down to is all of us asking ourselves
like am I normal? And it's the number one question
(12:24):
that we get asked all the time, like an investigation
of whether normal? And the answer is that there are
so many different ways to be normal, but everyone is
normal in that there's just like different roots to discovering
you know, what's going to work for you, and the
shame around you know, having too much having too little.
I see it as connected to the self care movement too,
(12:45):
which I think net net very positive. It's wonderful that
people have paid more attention to taking care of themselves
and addressing when they're overstressed or overtaxed. But when that
starts to tip into are you doing all this stuff?
Are you meditating every day? These are these shoulds? Actually
you're putting yourself into a new should space And so
I would you know, really ask someone to reframe. It's
(13:07):
like really not about quantity at all, unless that really
matters to you, decide if that really matters to you.
But it's actually allowing other people to decide what matters
to you. I think what really matters is what feels
good to you. And so if you're having a little
high quality sex and whatever that means to you, that's amazing.
Unless you feel like you want to be having more
for it of it, Ask yourself that is that something
(13:28):
that you care about, and start to like create your
own ideas of what matters to you, not because anyone has,
you know, other ideas that should weigh in on that.
So there are going to be expectations in this space
all over the place. I think in relationships, their expectations.
When you're single, their expectations, and it's hard to We
(13:50):
are social human beings. We look to others to help
us understand how we move through this world. And that's
very natural. But the shame around having you know, two
little sex, I think now is a little bit of
like this new thing where like the former stigma was
like you know, you're out there and you're what are
all the old fashioned sayings like you're too loose or
too easy or whatever words were the words then? And
(14:13):
I think now the new fear that I hear from
a lot of twenty year olds, you know, eighteen to
twenty four especially, is like have I had enough?
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Like?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Am I experienced enough? Is it shameful and embarrassing that
I'm going out in the world without enough experience? And
oh my gosh, like you don't need to put that
upon yourself.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
I think that that is actually really getting too such
a such a good point there of like the shoulds
that accompany sex. And I remember talking to a friend
the other day and I was like, you know, you
can have a lot of sex and not much of
it can be good, yeah, you know, or you can
be having sex with one person right for your whole
life and it's amazing. Like I think that that numbers
(14:55):
that numbers descript on that numbers game you were talking about.
I see that everywhere in like, oh, what's your body count?
As well? Totally I'm surprised by how many people ask
that question.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
I know, the body count thing is interesting. First of all,
what a horrible phrase, so past.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
I know, I'm like, oh, and the fact that I
think that it's like was first used very much by
man and now it's one of those phrases where we
just say we don't actually think about what that actually, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Let's talk about what it actually means just right now,
because I'm thinking about it for the first time in
a long time, which is like sex as bodies and
that we are these transactional physical beings and we just
transact with one another and we handshake or have penetrative
sex in this context, and then we move on instead
of having some sort of emotional, chemical, interesting interaction with someone,
(15:46):
even if that's just purely a one on one time moment,
that doesn't mean that you're not having a human interaction
with someone. Body count makes it sound so, yeah, your
personhood is kind of a race from that completely.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yeah, And I also think that when we think about
body count in other aspects, maybe this is a bit
of a stretch, but how it's used in like the
military and to like accompany the idea of like dead
bodies and like this, and when they used it in
that sense, it was like, oh, what's your body count?
As this like metal of honor of like how many
people have you like dominated killed? It just I think
(16:23):
is still very much this like descripture of like to
be celebrated. The high your BodyCount the better, and especially
when we think about its origins in terms of a
very historically excessively patriarchal, misogynistic society. This is normally what
it was referring to. Anyhow, we're off track, but I
do think that it's like that language around sex really
(16:43):
needs to go.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Yeah, and we're judgmental in both directions. I think we're
judgmental of single people who have quote unquote too many partners,
and we're judgmental of long term monogamous people who have
had only one partner. And like we're judgmental about whether
that's you know better or worse, whether you learn more
or less, whether you have more sexual experience or less.
And I think all of it is just, you know,
we're projecting our own insecurities about what's happening with everyone else.
(17:07):
But all experiences are normal, and all experiences are valid
if they're what you want. And again, it all comes
back to.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
What you want.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
But of course we struggle with that and sex because
I don't think a lot of people are asking us
to evaluate that. Very often we're not. We don't really
don't really flax that.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Muscle, absolutely not. I also think it links back to
very much where we learn sex from. You know, we
talked about porn, but also in terms about education system,
the conversations that our friends are having, movies, And I
recently really was thinking about this in terms of also
(17:46):
like your first sexual experience and how much that really
determines how you see sex unless you unlearn it. And
I think that that also, you know, I don't think
most people's first sex experience is particularly good. You know,
it's might not be terrible, but like you're kind of
just fumbling through it. And I think that if you
(18:09):
think if your entire perception of sex is based off
of one experience or like your first experience and how
that went, and you're not and that's never been challenged,
particularly what I was talking about before, where it's like
it's very penetration based and it's very much based on
like I'm a heterosexual woman, based on what the man wants.
That takes a long time to unlearn. How do you
(18:30):
think we can kind of start to unlearn that.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, it's interesting the idea of you know, well, I
had oral sex and that's not sex or these are
like common things that you hear, you know, in the
categorization or the quantifying of like what sex is, and
it all comes down to ignoring the feelings of it,
just focused on the facts of it. Your question is,
how do we move away from the idea that the
first experience is like this, we over index on it.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
I think, just like, how do we unlearn some of
some of the early things we're talked about sex, the
harmful things we're taught about sex, whether that's from alpha
sexual experience or from porn or from I think I
think the education system is a bit different in Australia.
We don't do amazing, but we I think do a
little bit better.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
But even then, the American system is a.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
System oh wow, okay, so going against the there, but
how do we unline some of those things?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah, you reference really early on in the conversation that
there aren't a lot of good guide books and that's
something that we a dipsy are very aware of and
I think it right now. It puts the burden on
people to do a lot of self discovery to find
out what they like, but also to do some un
learning and to do some understanding of how consent can
fold into their lives and kind of do the work
(19:47):
of being a healthy sex positive sexual partner. And that's
hard because I wish it was easier for people. It
shouldn't have to be so difficult to kind of self
serve on the Internet to figure that out, especially because
you might hit a lot of things that you don't
want to see or aren't there information. The Internet is
a wild West sort of resource, so I think finding
(20:09):
sources that you trust really matters, and so like at Tipsy,
we hope to be one of those sources. You know,
you trust the makers. They're asking you to pay for
this content. It is ethical content by default. If you're
engaging with more classic visual pornography, pay for that content.
That is the best and only way that you can
really guarantee that it is on the side of ethical
porn versus you don't know it's genesis or how it's
(20:30):
being made. That you are allowing yourself to expand your
understanding and what those resources are. Like, maybe you're really
excited about fan thick on the Internet and you're like,
this isn't teaching. This is just like the fluffy stuff
about sex. It's not like you're actually doing active work
and understanding what you like, what the mattics feel exciting,
to you and what feels less exciting to you. And
those are all resources that are available to you, and
(20:52):
many of them are actually fun and engaging and don't
feel like you're reading your eighteenth blog post about consent
and still confused. No, I want people to listen to
a dipsy story and say, like, oh, like that actually
wasn't so complicated, that didn't like kill the vibe. That
actually made it sound even sexier. You know, there's a
spectrum from like consent to dirty talk, and there's like
(21:12):
a huge in between of like what it means to
verbalize during sex. These are things that are so hard
if you don't have examples of what that sounds like.
So people need more resources to figure that out before
they're like out in the world. Some people are intrepid
and they're like, great, I'll figure that out during sex
and I'll learn as I go, amazing. And there's other
people that don't feel as comfortable doing that, of course not.
(21:33):
And so you know, our hope is that there are
more resources like Dipsy around and there are, but yeah,
it's okay to take either path. I think like getting
out there and learning is great, and doing the work
to learn was also great again and like what's your
what's your path? Everyone's gonna have a different path.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I love that you mentioned fan fic on the internet.
I feel like that was such a introduction for me.
Was like erotical, like erotic literature, and I remember being like,
oh my god, I feel so bad. I had like
this one book at college and like I actually found
it the other day and like this sex and it
is so mild, Like it's so very mild, and I
(22:18):
was like wow, like, oh my gosh, like this is insane.
Like I like had the page like duggy it and
like all that stuff. And I'm like, I do think
that that is actually such a valid thing, Like I
don't know, everyone loves a little bit of a smutty novel.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Like yeah, every It's amazing how many people now that
it's getting a little bit more comfortable to talk about
these things. You know, Dipsy's been around for five years,
and I think five years ago people talked about this
less than they do now. Even like the new up
and coming interest in uh like romance media like Bridgerton
wouldn't have happened five years ago, which is cool to watch.
The kind of that's happening, and I think part of
(22:55):
it is like the pushback against misogyny happening in our
culture where it's like cool, like you want to watch football, amazing, Well,
I want to watch a romance vis of media and
I want to watch Brigerton and that's an equally valuable
way of using my time. And it's not like chick lit.
It's not like worse media. It's like great media that
is fun and I love to consume. So I think
a little bit of it is like a pushback on
(23:16):
there aren't certain types of media that are like by
nature worse or better. You actually just get to choose
what you like, which I think is really empowering and awesome.
But yeah, we all had the dog Yard Book, and
we hit the dog Yard Book right, and that was
in an era where you had to kind of hide it.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Exactly. It's so interesting though, because I distinctly remember my
grandma having like, do you guys have Mills and Boone?
What is that? Okay? So Mills and Boone is like this.
Maybe it's just an Australian thing, but it's like this
series of like smart books, like sexy romance books felt
(23:56):
like the generation of my grandma. Yeah, well maybe even
my mom so like, and they all look exactly the
same and on the front will be like this eighties
photoshopped image and I'll be like the Cowboy, yeah exactly.
It will be like the Cowboy and the Runaway like
(24:16):
something like that. It will be like the Mistress of
ohm On or like something, and it's just like and
it's just smuck. And my grandma used to have them
everywhere when we were kids. So it's it's interesting that
I still felt like shame around sex. I think because
I was like, oh my god, Grandma, that's so embarrassing.
But it was so it's so funny because I think
that it's just and it I think also she did
(24:39):
feel a bit of like shame, but then as she
got older, she was like, oh, I'm I'm an. I
still feel sexual urges, like I still feel pleasure. Wow,
and I'm.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Really powerful to hear that from your grandmother. That's really cool.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
She was, Oh, she's she's still alive. I don't know
why I was like gonna say she was. She is
like a very empower lady. And I think it, you know,
I actually got old at that actually became more evident
to me.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Well, you know, when we were first starting to think
about making Dipsy not just an idea but a company,
we were looking at the romance novel industry and it's amazing,
Like it drives the publishing industry, Like it is the
reason the publishing industry is afloat. Literally Amazon had to
create a different package in order to not lose money
because romance novel consumers read so many of them that
(25:25):
they were like literally taking Amazon out of business. The
business model wasn't working, so they had to create a
separate package for it. So there's like incredible, voracious demand
for this content, but we weren't seeing that demand kind
of trickle down to younger audiences. Why is that? Well,
like is the guy with the long hair on the horse,
like really the model of what's sexy anymore? Is that
(25:46):
it there's all sorts of kind of baggage that was
associated with the category that did really well for our
moms and our aunts and our grandmothers. And that's amazing,
Like this is not new, This is just new ways
of making this feel cool and contemporary, and like it
is talking about sex the way that you might talk
about it with your friends or like actually have it,
you know, out in the world. So I think it's
(26:08):
amazing that that existed, but I also think we should
be aware that that was very much like relegated as
this like silly little woman's thing, which happens a lot
where either sex is very very dangerous or sex is
like this like silly, safe little interest, and those like
those are the kind of the two places that it
can be. You know, our understanding of what pleasure is
is really really limited in the context of Western society.
(26:30):
You know, we've been taught to be good members of society,
and that our value is measured by what we make
or what we do, or by our success or maybe
buy how esteemed we are, and so we see pleasure
as like a distraction to what matters most, or worse,
like a place of no return, Like if we focus
on pleasure, we'll ignore all these more important parts of
our lives. And so pleasure is generally seen as the
(26:52):
stone where it's like allowed to exist if it feels guilty,
Like you can have it, but you better feel guilty
about it. That's like the regulating factor. And I think
the way that we treated romance novels for many, many
decades was that it's like, Okay, you can have your
silly little book that's safe, but like, let's make you
feel a little guilty about it to keep it in check,
because pleasure is seen as selfish, and pleasure is seen
as you know, you need to earn it, and the
(27:15):
worst worst case scenario, it's seen as dangerous, where like,
once you get a taste, what will happen? And frankly,
I think, in the context of our patriarchal society, as
you just called it out, if a woman knows what
true pleasure is, why wouldn't she just leave her husband,
Why wouldn't she break the family you did? Why wouldn't
she be out discovering and exploring. It was like, let's
not even give her a taste, right, And those are
(27:38):
the containers of thought that we still see when we
talk to our customers. We hear that all the time.
These are the things I'm afraid of. It's like, Eh,
if I'm experiencing pleasure, I'm wasting time, Or like if
I'm experiencing pleasure, that means someone else experiences less of it.
Or if I work hard enough and get thin enough,
then I deserve something.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Like we all know that feels like that second point
that you just said then was like like I've never
been able to identify which one that if I feel pleasure,
someone else.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Will feel less zero sum.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Oh my goodness. Ye, I'm shocked because I think that
that is an attitude that I've had for a very
long time. Definitely, Wow, that was like kind of my
going to me. But people are probably listening to this
being like, yeah, Dad, that's not true. But like, I
think it was just the way that you were able
to describe that. I guess that really Also, I want
(28:29):
to say, you're so right when you were talking about
the you know, the cowboy with the long hair, and
how this generation is is not particularly attracted to that depiction.
And I really think you know that it comes down
to people are more interested in a character psychologically nowadays.
Same way they don't want them to be. Yeah, they
(28:51):
don't want them to be like perfect, they want them
to be they want them to have some kind of
nuance and some kind of discoverability and some kind of
vulnerability that is interesting. It's not just about physical form.
It's not about being this like archetype and depiction of attractiveness.
(29:14):
It's it's we are like we we want to be
more psychologically satisfied by our characters.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
That's so well said, and you see that in fan fiction,
like you see the kind of like enemy that is
misunderstood and has so much more to offer, or the
kind of mysterious character that hasn't been fully understood until
one person can really see and understand them. And that's
some of the most common tropes that you're seeing happen
over and over again.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Yeah, definitely, your biggest example is Christian Gray. Yeah, that's
probably fifty shades gay like this, like torture.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Do you think he's redeemable often?
Speaker 1 (29:48):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
That's questions out here.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yeah, I actually did read that. I actually read that
series of my summer break this year.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Oh really, I think I wasn't a fan.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
I was, I wasn't a fan. I actually didn't love it.
I didn't love it. It was just at my beach
house and I had forgotten to bring a book because
I was hiking beforehand, and it was the only thing that.
Funnily enough, they actually had three copies, so it was
like me. Yeah, So it was like me and my
cousin and one of my best friends. We were all
(30:23):
reading it fun We book clubbed it like an accident.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Of what was the debrief?
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Like, I think it was like, you know, it was
so funny. At one point she won't mind me saying this,
but my cousin was like, got to this part that
I knew was like particularly spicy, and then she's like,
I'm just gonna go upstairs. Yeah, And I was like, you,
I think that is so valid. I think like our
(30:52):
consensus on it was like this is not actually that
appealing because it would be like I think the one
thing that I noticed about it was in all the
sex scenes, it was like she came really quickly. She
came within like three minutes, and I was like, and
then she'd be like, oh, wave of pleasure, and then
like he just kept going and then we would die. Yeah,
And I was like I do think. Yeah, anyhow, here's
(31:14):
my book review. Guys, no one asked for it, but
fifty Shades a great book group.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
I mean, fifty Shades blew open the idea of what
a romance novel could be, which I think many people
felt was like kind of this dowdy old school thing
and that's cool, Like that did amazing work, But was
it the best written version of what sex at its
most aspirational and sexy could be. I think most people think, no,
(31:37):
you know, the power dynamics at play there could have
been a lot more nuanced, and the pleasure could have
been a lot more mutual and like, listen to each
their own, Like some people love that book absolutely awesome,
power to you.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
But there.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
There needs to be more versions of what like a
really sexy piece of media can look like. And I
honestly I give credit to shows like Bridgerton that are
trying to figure those things out on the big screen,
which again wasn't happening five years ago. So I think,
like talk about generational shifts, like what millennials were consuming
is different than what gen z is consuming, Like it
literally is a different world of content out there.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Obviously, we've spent a large part of this episode talking
about sex, and sex is fun and sex is fascinating
and interesting. People love talking about sex. But there are
some other things about your life right now, your experience,
that I think would be equally valuable to share with
people in their twenties. The first one being that we
(32:40):
have almost a well we have a decade between us,
so you're kind of like you're kind of me in
my thirties, right, like where I'm at in my twenties
in your fingxactly. And I think that there is at
least around me in the people. I see this like
(33:00):
ending doom associated with turning thirty, and it's almost like
the clock ticks over. One of my friends the other
day said to me, she was like, oh, what did
she say? She was like, oh, thirty is when when
women die, like no longer I know. I was like,
(33:20):
I was like, I do people feel like, excuse me?
I know, I know. I was like, Clare, that is
not what we want to hear. But you are post thirties.
How has it been. What's what's been some of the
learnings in the new outlook on life? If there has
been one?
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Yeah, I think you know. I'm thirty three. So the
pandemic started when I was twenty nine. So like right
at the tail end of my twenties, I think all
of us in some ways felt like we were disrupted,
like we last something, we last college years, or we
lost like transition years in our twenties, or we lost
you know, I lost turning thirty, like that was just
lost to the wind of the pandemic. So there is
(33:56):
something unique and present right here and now. But you know,
speaking from my experience, my twenties were interesting because ten
years ago, fifteen years ago, it wasn't as common as
it is today to have queer friends that were out
of the closet when I was eighteen, or when I
was twenty or even when I was twenty three, Like,
I had plenty of friends that one of my friends
(34:17):
affectionately calls baby queers that were figuring out what it
means to feel safe out in the world as someone
who's stated as clear. And for those folks, you know,
you're working through that feeling of you should be more
experienced but aren't, and that can be really challenging you
in your twenties. And I think there's versions of that
that happened in our thirties too, Like we are all
baby clearing in some ways. Where maybe you hit thirty
(34:39):
and I've had this for plenty of friends and you're
deeper in monogamy with someone, you've been with someone for
a longer time, and you're like, hey, I actually want
to figure out not how to not how to have
good sex, but how to have great sex. What is
that going to look like for me. So I actually
see a lot of interests start to spike in maybe
like the twenty eight twenty nine zone, where people are like,
(35:00):
I want a self love journey, I want to love
my body, I want to enjoy sex. I want to
expand what my understanding of sex is. Maybe I want
to open up my relationship. There's like more play happening
with not just I want to have sex and I
want to have as much of it as possible, but like,
I really want to focus on quality, and I think
that that's really a big shift in the thirties. It's like,
how do I really focus on what quality is like
(35:21):
to me? Which is amazing. I think people always talk
about you feel less pressure as you grow older. I mean,
I don't know, you feel pressure in different ways, but
I think there's a little bit less of this, like
I need to be out. I don't know, tallying my
body account would be the worst way to say it,
but like out there and like pushing myself and I'm tired,
but I'm gonna go out on a Thursday. We feel
that less, I think, generally speaking in our thirties, but
(35:41):
we can still really attend to the moment we are
in our sexual journey and it's not finished. You know,
life certainly doesn't end at thirty. I love being thirty three.
I love being into my thirties. I think I can
definitely say that I love myself more now than I
did ten years ago, and I hope that that keeps growing.
And you know, the ernie is always there and bino
(36:02):
libido shifts right Like you might be twenty three and
a really little lebido at the time because your boss
is horrible and you're working super long hours, or you're
having body shame images, body image issues, and there's all
sorts of stuff going on, and then you might come
out of that and have a renaissance at thirty three.
You might have a renaissance at forty. Like the moments
that we're having the best sex in our lives are
(36:22):
certainly not maintained or like bound by our twenties. I
think actually most people that I speak to that are
past their twenties say they're having better sex now than
they did then. So it's ahead of you. Look forward
to it. There's a lot more life to live. I
think the greater interest in sexual self discovery is kind
of the big one that I feel really excited by.
You know, what does that look like for me? What's
(36:44):
that going to feel? Like? How am I going to
bring that out? What class am I going to take?
Am I gonna take a Shabari class? Am I gonna
learn to love my body through a dance class?
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Like?
Speaker 2 (36:53):
I see a lot more of that. It's a little
bit more like high intention, which I really respect.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
What's a shabari class?
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Rope tang? Like a complex kind of art but also
like a form of BDSM that involves knots and ropes.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Oh my god, wow, fascinating. There we go. I'm learning.
I had no idea what that was, but super super cool.
It's also good to hear I think that the best
is yet to come. It is such a trend like
hearing that I do think that our twenty so like
the quantity is yeah, we're like how many sexual experiences
(37:28):
can I have? How much alcohol can I drink? How
many countries can I visit? How many like you're mosting
really hard? How much money can I make? Like everything
is like yeah, it's like I just want the maximum
of everything, the maximum pleasure, And it's kind of tiring
to be honest and sometimes I just want like I'm like,
(37:49):
I'm cool with like the bare minimum.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Well, maybe that's another thing that I can speak to.
That you're thirty four, I think you give yourself a
lot more leeway to like feel the feeling that you're feeling,
and if that feeling is t that's okay, and that's
really liberating. I mean, I don't know if you're familiar
with the account then ministry, but I think it's like
really powerful stuff, yeah, around liberation coming from allowing yourself
(38:13):
to feel what you feel and if that feeling is tired,
to embrace it.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Yeah. I think it's also a massive shift in psychology
as well. Of Previously it was around treating the negative thoughts,
treating the self criticism, treating whatever's going on, and the
way to like treat it was to like shame it
out of ourselves or to suppress it, or to be
like go for a run, like go and do this,
(38:38):
go and distract yourself. And nowadays it's more like, actually
you need to sit with them, and anything else is
actually just going to exacerbate that feeling, that distress, whatever
that urge is. So you need to really like embrace
the good and the bad, which I think is such
a part of positive psychology and like more holistic psychology
(39:02):
that's like really coming through in this in this like
new generation of psychologists, so super fascinating. The other thing
I want to talk about is your journey through entrepreneurship.
I know it hasn't it has actually does have stuff
to do with sex. I know this is just like
a sex episode. Obviously you started Dipsy. How has that
been because I think we were talking about this before
(39:22):
we started recording like that. Yeah, yeah, I know we
should have started recording then, but it's still gonna be great. Yeah,
around like your journey through entrepreneurship, I feel like everyone
is fascinated by how you can start a business, what
makes a business, all of those kinds of things. Can
(39:42):
you talk us through were you working elsewhere before, like
the whole journey would be would be great to hear
your path through.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Yeah, I mean this could take hour or so, I'll
try and keep it brief. So before I started Dipsy,
I was a brand strategist, So I was helping brands
figure out how to meet people where they are with
what they could authentically offer and tell stories that people liked,
were interested in, and so storytelling was always part of
the mix. I studied psychology and undergrad and oh I
(40:10):
got I didn't. And I have always been really curious
about what people want, what makes them tick, and why
they do different things than what they state that they want,
just really you know, just fascinating stuff, just the baseline
of you know, human behavior. And then I met my
co founder, and it was right around the time that
I had this idea. And I think the moment that
(40:31):
you take the idea to the reality of like, I'm
quitting my job, I will not be making money, I'm
going to put all of my eggs in this basket
definitely helps when you have someone who is equally passionate
about that idea. So I think that we really supported
each other when the other was feeling a little bit
like ah, the other person was there to be you know,
there's only room for one person at a time to
(40:52):
be having a freak out, right, and so we got
to balance each other in those ways and be like, no,
this is really compelling the researches here and why.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
While I was a.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Natural storyteller and was excited to figure out what this
content was going to sound like Fay is an engineer,
and Fay knows how to build a product, and so
we were kind of a perfect team to make it happen.
So I think finding for someone that you have good
fit with but also someone who you really trust and
really like matters a lot. Like you're going to be
spending so much time with whoever you decide to be
your business partner, should you follow that path, so that
(41:23):
selection matters. And I would say that mattered in the
last five years even more than my romantic partner, if
you can believe it, We've spent so much time together,
like in many ways she is my other partner.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
Really all that's actually quite beautiful to hear that. Also,
that fear of like transitioning from being like I've quit
my job to doing this, that is so scary.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
It's so high conviction, right, like you are really saying
and I really believe this, and then you are asked
questions every day to push back on whether what you
believe is true, and so you have many chances a
day to be like, do I still believe this? Right?
And you really just have to keep believing it. And
I think that if that feels excited because you feel
such high conviction in something that's amazing and otherwise wait
(42:05):
for an idea that really makes you feel that way,
because that conviction will be tested on a daily basis,
and there will be many people that don't believe. And
that's hard. That knocks your ego. I really had to
work on my self esteem through that problem, Like, what
if not everyone thinks this is what I should be
spending my time doing. What if not everyone thinks this
will work? What if not everyone thinks this is important.
It's hard enough already just every day figuring out how
(42:27):
to do it, but it's harder when other people don't
necessarily think it's yeah. You know, does a fifty year
old white man who my dad's business partner think that
Dipsy's is important as a twenty five year old who
is so excited this product exists. Of course not, but
there are people like that, and so finding that people
that remind you of why this matters to you and
(42:47):
reminds you of as being important along the journey is
also really huge. We were talking about that earlier too.
It's helpful in the world of podcasting, you're like alone
a lot. It's helpful to get ot there and be
like Wow, I meet you and you really like what
I'm doing. That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
It's also what you were talking about, the idea that
comes along. I've watched this amazing Ted talk the other
day that was explaining how ancient civilizations used to think
that the ideas lived in the walls and in the wind,
and so like an idea would come to you in
the wind and you had to like grab it, and
(43:20):
you had like a responsibility to grab it out and
hold on to it super tight because and you can
see the ideas like floating by. I think a lot
of people have like million dollar ideas on a daily basis.
I think everyone has had a million dollar idea, but
it's like they just let it float by then grab
it and it is it takes a lot of courage
to do both things. I think it takes a lot
(43:41):
of courage to be like, oh, you know, I actually
have a family right now and I can't do that
or I need to focus on my studies, but also
a lot of courage to be like you know, I
think that was my experience. I was like the first
couple of months first year, it was like I didn't
get any listens I've really it was just like my
family and close friends, and it just like you just
got to push through and believe in what you're doing exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Maybe those are my two biggest learnings.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Is that possible?
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Could I boil it out to two, that'd be a miracle.
But I think, you know, what you just said is
so right, Like there are some people that say, like,
I have the grit and I'm willing to push through it,
and I'm willing to deal with a year maybe even
more where I'm not getting the feedback that I want yet,
but I just believe and I keep pushing. And there
are other people that think like that actually sounds more
terrifying than fun. And I don't know if I have
that sort of grit. And I actually feel really happy
(44:29):
pursuing something where someone is telling me what they need
and I'm doing my job really well, and that is
an equally respectable path. And in many ways I envy
that in my hardest days because being entrepreneurs, like, oh
my god, is responsibilities on me all the time or
me my co founder all the time. So talk about
the shame thing, It's like, there's no shame in finding
what works for you and entrepreneurship definitely isn't for everyone,
(44:50):
but if you really feel excited to hold tight to
that idea and like you just want to prove and
like great, grab it. And your twenties are a great
time for that because you're full of energy and like,
you know, what else are you doing? Let's just try it,
and so it's an amazing time. It's an amazing time.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
Also, I think if you fuck up, it's like that
was my whole thing. I was like, I have nothing
to lose by doing this. I have nothing to lose,
like if I fuck up, Yeah, it's like I really was,
like and also when when am I going to do this? Otherwise? Like, yeah,
when else am I going to take this risk? You
know in my you know, things could happen at any point,
(45:29):
like yeah, you have children, you have a mortgage, like
you're getting promoted your family members. Ill, like I need
to go back and do this, like do my master's.
I need to. Like I think that it was just
such a sometimes everything just kind of aligns, but like
you will be texted. I've learned that like the universe,
the universe, like some like I think that anything worth
(45:54):
having isn't easy. Otherwise everyone would have it so wise
I know that such like it. Sometimes people like yeah,
sometimes people give me, like give me a little bit
of flack for that. They're like, yeah, a lot of
things that are worth having it easy. But I'm like, yeah,
but I think that there are some things that aren't,
you know, like not everyone everyone wants a goal. Yeah
I want an Olympic medal.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Right. The phrase that I like to use is like,
what game do you want to be playing and what
pain are you willing to tolerate? And so maybe you
are the kind of person who can really deal with
challenging personalities and that's just like kind of you know,
water off your back.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
It's it's not.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Super stressful to you, but for other people that's like
intensely uncomfortable. And so maybe you know, being a nurse
in a hospital isn't the job for you because that
is like sort of pain that you'd be encountering on
a daily basis. Okay, so maybe that's not the game
that you play, but yeah, life is. I think about
picking the games that you want to play and knowing
that like, no path is going to be like default wonderful.
(46:51):
There's all there's so many things about being entrepreneurs are
so wonderful. You pick who you work with, you choose
the problems you want to work on, you decide how
you want to spend your time, and you own them. Like,
those are really amazing things. But the downside of that,
if you don't like it is you feel like, oh
my god, I have all this time. What am I
supposed to do with it? How am I supposed to
organize it? How am I supposed to use it? I
have to pick people. That's so hard, Like, I don't
(47:11):
like hiring. I find that really stressful. Like there's all
sorts of ways that you can see the same thing
in two different directions, And yeah, so probably I could
bring that all the way back to what feels good
for you, Like if you're paying attention to what feels
good for you and you're like, I end this day
feeling like it was exhausting, but I'm not depleted, I'm
(47:32):
just tired.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Cool.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Yeah, there's a difference there.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
Jana, thank you so much for coming on the show.
This is possibly one of my favorite episodes. I don't
know why I haven't spoken about sex and pleasure before.
There's so much psychology and like so many facets of
it that definitely need to be explored more. I want
to also say this episode was not sponsored. I just
(47:57):
really love dipsy. It was not sponsored in any capacity. However,
if you do want to download this app, experience it's
some amazing storytelling, it's some amazing audio content. It's a
little bit different to mine. You can go to what's
it dipsy dot com slash psych twenty.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
No, you can head two dipsystories dot com slash Psych twenty.
That's dip sea stories dot com slash psych twenty.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
There you go and you get.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
You'll get thirty days free, so you can explore literally
every piece of content to your heart's desire for thirty
days and decide if it's right.
Speaker 1 (48:34):
Breathe, Oh my goodness, look at that. It's free. You
may as well do it. You may as well just
download it for thirty days and listen to some fun stories,
do some exploring. Yeah, do some exploring. I think that's
really really valuable.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
And I would also definitely say follow us on TikTok
and Instagram. We put all sorts of fun content, educational
content out there that's at dipsy stories on both TikTok
and Instagram. I think the stuff we put up there
is amazing, and our social media manager is a wizard.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
Actually, I did see something on TikTok the other day
and it was like one of your stories, like your
stories and like yeah, and it was like over this
like tree backdrop, and I was like, wow, who.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
We targeted your effect?
Speaker 1 (49:15):
Oh my god to hear you're my alcohol and just
like and I follow I follow you guys, but not okay, yeah,
but like this one in particular was like I was like,
it's spoke me out. Yeah, it was really good. I
literally was like, oh, when you listen to a cute
little story, Thank you so much again for coming on.
I really think that what you're doing is amazing. Thank
you so much for listening to today's episode. As always,
(49:36):
if you feel cool to do so, please feel free
to leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
wherever you're listening right now. Make sure you go and
check out dipsy of course, and if you have an
episode suggestion. If you just want to follow along, please
follow me at that Psychology podcast on Instagram and on
TikTok to see what's coming out, to see what we
(49:58):
have in the works. We would love to see you
over there and as always, have a lovely week. We
will be back with another episode in a couple of
days
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the podcast where we talk through some of the big
life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.
(00:26):
Welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, wherever
you are in the world. Thank you so much for
joining us for another episode. Today is one that I
am super super excited about. Something that we don't talk
about a lot on this show is sex and pleasure
and I think that it is really important to discuss.
(00:48):
So I don't know why we haven't spoken about it before,
but when I heard about this company a couple of
years ago, I immediately downloaded their app. It's an amazing
experience and additionally, I think really aligns with a lot
of the values we promote on this show. We talk
a lot about psychology, obviously, and I think, like everything
(01:10):
in our twenties, sex in our twenties is also based
in a lot of psychology. So today we are going
to talk about it, and I've brought on a wonderful,
fabulous guest to join us. One of the co founders
of Dipsy, Gina Gutierrez.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Hi, wow, I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Yeah, thanks for coming along. Can you kind of talk
us through what we're talking about today, but also what
dipsy is, because I think one of the big things
about sex in our twenties is that we kind of
don't really have like a guidebook. We kind of just
go all in. No one's really telling us what to do,
and we can feel quite disconnected. So where does kind
(01:53):
of dipsy sit in that kind of space?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, So dipsy is an app for audio erotica and
the stories are all original and we write them ourselves
in studio. Their sex positive, they're feminist, they're really fun,
and they show what sex could kind of be like
realistically but also really aspirationally. And it's obviously fifteen minutes
(02:16):
of fun when you're listening to an episode, but they're
also amazing to hear how sex could happen, or what
you might say, or what a date could be like
that you might really want to be on, or how
you might enter a sex club for the first time.
Right Like, they actually do teach you a little bit
about how you might experience things in your own life,
and we love that. We love creating a guidebook in
a world where there are not a lot of guidebooks.
(02:36):
So Dipsy is a brainchild of kind of the combination
of what sexual wellness experience could feel like and also
like a really great storytelling studio could feel like. And
it is both.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah, and where did you get the idea from? So
if you haven't kind of dipped your toes into audio erotica,
I think it's amazing. Obviously, as someone who works in
like the audio space, I think stories and like really
provide us with an insane ability to firstly be educated,
but also to connect not just with others but with ourselves. So, yeah,
(03:12):
where did you get this idea from? Because I think
it's like so smart.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Well, thank you. So my co founder and I started
the company when we were twenty seven, and I'd been
thinking about these ideas since I was in college, so
since I was eighteen. And I remember one of my
really good friends coming back to our dorm and she
had just had sex the night before with this guy
that she was really into. She came back and she
was like, I really like him, but I just the
sex isn't that good. Why wouldn't that just be automatic?
(03:38):
If I really like him, shouldn't the sex be good?
So I started asking her questions about the experience. And
when I asked her the question what are you thinking
about when you're having sex? She looked at me with
this blank stare and she was like, Wow, I really
don't know. And something about that moment really struck me
that she was so focused on her physical experience, she
(04:01):
wasn't thinking about her mental experience at all. So I
think many of us understand our brains holding us back
from good sex. It's like I'm stressed out, so that
makes my sex drive lower, or I'm preoccupied by a
conversation I had earlier, and so I'm kind of dissociated,
or I'm overly focused on what I look like or
what I'm doing, or I'm you know, struggling in all
(04:21):
these ways. These are actually like psychological barriers, but we're
really not focused on what ways our brain could really
support us and having amazing sex. And so, how do
we have our own bank a fantasy that we lean on,
And how do we have language that we use that
we like to hear and guide someone in giving more
to us, or that we like to say because we
like to say it, And these are these amazing unlocks
(04:44):
that really make sex so much better, and storytelling is
such an amazing space for that. But the reason that
we started it when we were twenty seven is because
common Headspace were coming up, and common Headspace we're showing
that you could make an amazing audio experience that was
super immersive, and that wasn't there just to teach you
something like podcasts were doing at the time, but to
(05:05):
change how you felt. And I firmly believe that storytelling
can change how you feel. And I really wanted to
make stories I feel like that, and I had this
hunch that audio Erotica could really be this amazing immersive
experience that was imagination forward, so you could imagine kind
of your own house on the blueprint that we were
giving you with our stories, what characters looked and sounded like,
(05:26):
what you looked and sounded like that in that story
where you were how it all comes together is really
up to you to create. And there's something really really
powerful about that that I think is really really empowering.
You really are in control.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yeah, I absolutely love that and totally fully agree. I
really think it's fascinating what you said around how we
recognize the intersections between our mental framework and our psychology
and the sex we're having, but we don't recognize it
in the moment, right. We think about it as a barrier,
not as an enabler. So how can we kind of
(06:02):
leverage that understanding of how our mind's working and how
our psychology impacts our physical sensations to have good sex
in our twenties. I think that's like the golden question
that I get asked so much. It's like countless episodes
podcast about this, you know, articles people want to know
(06:23):
how to have good sex in their twenties.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yeah. Well, I think first of all, it's answering what
good sex is like. What makes sex good? I think
is a question we don't often ask ourselves, and I
think it's a very personal question. And what I would
encourage people to think about is start noticing what feels
good to you across all avenues of your life. And
what I mean by that is, I think we have
these stories or ideas of what feels good, like binge
(06:45):
watching my favorite show feels good, or seeing this group
of friends feels good. But then when you do binge
watch that show or you do see the group of friends,
you're turning off the TV, you're driving home, and you're
thinking like, ooh, I'm kind of tired, or I'm kind
of just like feeling a little dick, or I'm feeling
a little bit out of my body. It's really interesting
to notice that these things we might have stories about
that make us feel good actually don't make us feel good.
(07:07):
On the other hand, there are many things that you
might do that really surprise you with how good they feel.
Maybe there's a new friend that you're spending time with
and every time you leave them and you're like, wow,
I feel energized, I feel excited, I feel like I laughed,
I feel like I was funny, whatever, and you notice
that and it feels good. And so I think it's
a really good place to start with just being like,
listen to the signals of your body of like, this
feels good. I would like more of this where this
(07:27):
actually doesn't feel good, and you might be surprised by
what some of those things are. I think we're very distracted.
We have screens all around us, we're moving from place
to place, we're busy with our jobs, and if we
aren't listening to those signals, how can we listen to
what those signals might be like in the bedroom. So
that's like baseline where I start. Yeah, I think solo
(07:48):
sex is also kind of where to start. I mean,
the American sex education system certainly doesn't talk about masturbation
the way I think it should be talked about, where
it's a really by default safe place for you to
explore what kind of touch you like, what you like,
to fantasize about pacing order. You know, you get to
start thinking through what your ropes are. You know, your
(08:10):
own ropes, and I don't know. I think especially I
hear this at dipsy with heterosexual women who are in
partnerships with men who kind of almost assume that men
come pre coded with knowledge about sex. And I can
guarantee you that no one comes pre coded with that.
But men often have the guidebook of porn and that
(08:31):
comes with the whole mixed set of messages, some maybe
interesting and some really harmful. And so if he or
they or she is coming with their own ideas of
what sex is and what good sex is, you too
need to come to the table with your ideas of
what good sex is. You feel empowered in that, and
you can stand firm in that, and the only way
you can really do that, I think is by exploring
(08:51):
just by yourself. And so I think like round one,
like step one is what does the self touch or
the solo sex experience feel.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Like, Yeah, I again, I just keep powerting it. Exactly
what you're saying. I really really agree with that. It's
really interesting because when I first started having sex, like
in my teen years and then even in my like
very early twenties, I used to just like define sex
as like penetration. And I was literally talking to someone
(09:22):
about this yesterday, where I was like I used to
be like, all right, it's good sex if like it's
penetrative and he comes totally and nothing else matters because
it's all about like pleasuring them. And it's so interesting
because I think when I started to be like really
(09:42):
move into this like self exploration phase, I bought a vibrator.
It's the best thing I ever probably the best seventy
dollars I ever spent. And then suddenly it was like
not only was I having better sex, but I was
attracting better partners. And I think it also came from
this like confidence thing as well, in this like sense
(10:04):
of self of like, Wow, I am having better sex
with myself than I've ever had with someone else, So
I only want someone to elevate that experience.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, I think if you talk to the average I mean,
maybe this is a little ageist, but I think if
you talk to the average forty or fifty year old
about sex being this playground to discover who you are
and how confident you can be in this world and
how much you love yourself, they'd be like, yeah, yah, yeah, yeah.
I think if you say that to a younger person,
they're more likely to be like, yeah, totally, Like this
is this underused space where if I have some more,
(10:38):
if I pay more attention to what I can do
in this space, I might like take that with me
out in the world. And I think when people listen
to Dipsey they sometimes say that, They'll say, like, I
don't even need to listen right before I have sex.
Sometimes I just walk out the street and I'm like
I'm walking with like a skip in my step. I'm
feeling good. I'm like bouncing down the sidewalk, I'm smiling
at strangers like that. Feeling feels like feeling alive. So
(10:58):
I think sex is just one way to be like,
how can I like really feel alive and here in
this world? And that's I mean, like that's so worthwhile,
you know, Like that's that's it right there in my mind.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, And I think that kind of gets to this
point right where it's like you don't need to be
I think you don't need to be having sex to
be experiencing pleasure. I think we often put sex on
this pedestal. There's this weird conondrum I've found where there's
like this shame around having sex. But it used to
(11:30):
be a lot of shame around having too much sex.
And now I hear a lot of people, see a
lot of people with my personal life through this podcast
who come to me and are like, I'm experiencing a
lot of self shame because I'm having too little Yeah. Classic, Yeah,
because I feel like everyone is selling sex to me?
Is this like empowering thing? And that I need to
have all of these sexual experiences in my twenties to
(11:53):
like form the foundation of you know, having good sex
in my third days or like having these stories. Where
do you think that comes from? Because that's something I'm
really fascinated by.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
There are so many shoulds in this space. It's incredible,
and I think it's really interesting to me how numbers
obsessed we are about sex. We like really try and
quantify it, like how many times a week is normal?
What's healthy? What's good for my relationship? And what it
all boils down to is all of us asking ourselves
like am I normal? And it's the number one question
(12:24):
that we get asked all the time, like an investigation
of whether normal? And the answer is that there are
so many different ways to be normal, but everyone is
normal in that there's just like different roots to discovering
you know, what's going to work for you, and the
shame around you know, having too much having too little.
I see it as connected to the self care movement too,
(12:45):
which I think net net very positive. It's wonderful that
people have paid more attention to taking care of themselves
and addressing when they're overstressed or overtaxed. But when that
starts to tip into are you doing all this stuff?
Are you meditating every day? These are these shoulds? Actually
you're putting yourself into a new should space And so
I would you know, really ask someone to reframe. It's
(13:07):
like really not about quantity at all, unless that really
matters to you, decide if that really matters to you.
But it's actually allowing other people to decide what matters
to you. I think what really matters is what feels
good to you. And so if you're having a little
high quality sex and whatever that means to you, that's amazing.
Unless you feel like you want to be having more
for it of it, Ask yourself that is that something
(13:28):
that you care about, and start to like create your
own ideas of what matters to you, not because anyone has,
you know, other ideas that should weigh in on that.
So there are going to be expectations in this space
all over the place. I think in relationships, their expectations.
When you're single, their expectations, and it's hard to We
(13:50):
are social human beings. We look to others to help
us understand how we move through this world. And that's
very natural. But the shame around having you know, two
little sex, I think now is a little bit of
like this new thing where like the former stigma was
like you know, you're out there and you're what are
all the old fashioned sayings like you're too loose or
too easy or whatever words were the words then? And
(14:13):
I think now the new fear that I hear from
a lot of twenty year olds, you know, eighteen to
twenty four especially, is like have I had enough?
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Like?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Am I experienced enough? Is it shameful and embarrassing that
I'm going out in the world without enough experience? And
oh my gosh, like you don't need to put that
upon yourself.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
I think that that is actually really getting too such
a such a good point there of like the shoulds
that accompany sex. And I remember talking to a friend
the other day and I was like, you know, you
can have a lot of sex and not much of
it can be good, yeah, you know, or you can
be having sex with one person right for your whole
life and it's amazing. Like I think that that numbers
(14:55):
that numbers descript on that numbers game you were talking about.
I see that everywhere in like, oh, what's your body count?
As well? Totally I'm surprised by how many people ask
that question.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
I know, the body count thing is interesting. First of all,
what a horrible phrase, so past.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
I know, I'm like, oh, and the fact that I
think that it's like was first used very much by
man and now it's one of those phrases where we
just say we don't actually think about what that actually, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Let's talk about what it actually means just right now,
because I'm thinking about it for the first time in
a long time, which is like sex as bodies and
that we are these transactional physical beings and we just
transact with one another and we handshake or have penetrative
sex in this context, and then we move on instead
of having some sort of emotional, chemical, interesting interaction with someone,
(15:46):
even if that's just purely a one on one time moment,
that doesn't mean that you're not having a human interaction
with someone. Body count makes it sound so, yeah, your
personhood is kind of a race from that completely.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yeah, And I also think that when we think about
body count in other aspects, maybe this is a bit
of a stretch, but how it's used in like the
military and to like accompany the idea of like dead
bodies and like this, and when they used it in
that sense, it was like, oh, what's your body count?
As this like metal of honor of like how many
people have you like dominated killed? It just I think
(16:23):
is still very much this like descripture of like to
be celebrated. The high your BodyCount the better, and especially
when we think about its origins in terms of a
very historically excessively patriarchal, misogynistic society. This is normally what
it was referring to. Anyhow, we're off track, but I
do think that it's like that language around sex really
(16:43):
needs to go.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Yeah, and we're judgmental in both directions. I think we're
judgmental of single people who have quote unquote too many partners,
and we're judgmental of long term monogamous people who have
had only one partner. And like we're judgmental about whether
that's you know better or worse, whether you learn more
or less, whether you have more sexual experience or less.
And I think all of it is just, you know,
we're projecting our own insecurities about what's happening with everyone else.
(17:07):
But all experiences are normal, and all experiences are valid
if they're what you want. And again, it all comes
back to.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
What you want.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
But of course we struggle with that and sex because
I don't think a lot of people are asking us
to evaluate that. Very often we're not. We don't really
don't really flax that.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Muscle, absolutely not. I also think it links back to
very much where we learn sex from. You know, we
talked about porn, but also in terms about education system,
the conversations that our friends are having, movies, And I
recently really was thinking about this in terms of also
(17:46):
like your first sexual experience and how much that really
determines how you see sex unless you unlearn it. And
I think that that also, you know, I don't think
most people's first sex experience is particularly good. You know,
it's might not be terrible, but like you're kind of
just fumbling through it. And I think that if you
(18:09):
think if your entire perception of sex is based off
of one experience or like your first experience and how
that went, and you're not and that's never been challenged,
particularly what I was talking about before, where it's like
it's very penetration based and it's very much based on
like I'm a heterosexual woman, based on what the man wants.
That takes a long time to unlearn. How do you
(18:30):
think we can kind of start to unlearn that.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, it's interesting the idea of you know, well, I
had oral sex and that's not sex or these are
like common things that you hear, you know, in the
categorization or the quantifying of like what sex is, and
it all comes down to ignoring the feelings of it,
just focused on the facts of it. Your question is,
how do we move away from the idea that the
first experience is like this, we over index on it.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
I think, just like, how do we unlearn some of
some of the early things we're talked about sex, the
harmful things we're taught about sex, whether that's from alpha
sexual experience or from porn or from I think I
think the education system is a bit different in Australia.
We don't do amazing, but we I think do a
little bit better.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
But even then, the American system is a.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
System oh wow, okay, so going against the there, but
how do we unline some of those things?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah, you reference really early on in the conversation that
there aren't a lot of good guide books and that's
something that we a dipsy are very aware of and
I think it right now. It puts the burden on
people to do a lot of self discovery to find
out what they like, but also to do some un
learning and to do some understanding of how consent can
fold into their lives and kind of do the work
(19:47):
of being a healthy sex positive sexual partner. And that's
hard because I wish it was easier for people. It
shouldn't have to be so difficult to kind of self
serve on the Internet to figure that out, especially because
you might hit a lot of things that you don't
want to see or aren't there information. The Internet is
a wild West sort of resource, so I think finding
(20:09):
sources that you trust really matters, and so like at Tipsy,
we hope to be one of those sources. You know,
you trust the makers. They're asking you to pay for
this content. It is ethical content by default. If you're
engaging with more classic visual pornography, pay for that content.
That is the best and only way that you can
really guarantee that it is on the side of ethical
porn versus you don't know it's genesis or how it's
(20:30):
being made. That you are allowing yourself to expand your
understanding and what those resources are. Like, maybe you're really
excited about fan thick on the Internet and you're like,
this isn't teaching. This is just like the fluffy stuff
about sex. It's not like you're actually doing active work
and understanding what you like, what the mattics feel exciting,
to you and what feels less exciting to you. And
those are all resources that are available to you, and
(20:52):
many of them are actually fun and engaging and don't
feel like you're reading your eighteenth blog post about consent
and still confused. No, I want people to listen to
a dipsy story and say, like, oh, like that actually
wasn't so complicated, that didn't like kill the vibe. That
actually made it sound even sexier. You know, there's a
spectrum from like consent to dirty talk, and there's like
(21:12):
a huge in between of like what it means to
verbalize during sex. These are things that are so hard
if you don't have examples of what that sounds like.
So people need more resources to figure that out before
they're like out in the world. Some people are intrepid
and they're like, great, I'll figure that out during sex
and I'll learn as I go, amazing. And there's other
people that don't feel as comfortable doing that, of course not.
(21:33):
And so you know, our hope is that there are
more resources like Dipsy around and there are, but yeah,
it's okay to take either path. I think like getting
out there and learning is great, and doing the work
to learn was also great again and like what's your
what's your path? Everyone's gonna have a different path.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I love that you mentioned fan fic on the internet.
I feel like that was such a introduction for me.
Was like erotical, like erotic literature, and I remember being like,
oh my god, I feel so bad. I had like
this one book at college and like I actually found
it the other day and like this sex and it
is so mild, Like it's so very mild, and I
(22:18):
was like wow, like, oh my gosh, like this is insane.
Like I like had the page like duggy it and
like all that stuff. And I'm like, I do think
that that is actually such a valid thing, Like I
don't know, everyone loves a little bit of a smutty novel.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Like yeah, every It's amazing how many people now that
it's getting a little bit more comfortable to talk about
these things. You know, Dipsy's been around for five years,
and I think five years ago people talked about this
less than they do now. Even like the new up
and coming interest in uh like romance media like Bridgerton
wouldn't have happened five years ago, which is cool to watch.
The kind of that's happening, and I think part of
(22:55):
it is like the pushback against misogyny happening in our
culture where it's like cool, like you want to watch football, amazing, Well,
I want to watch a romance vis of media and
I want to watch Brigerton and that's an equally valuable
way of using my time. And it's not like chick lit.
It's not like worse media. It's like great media that
is fun and I love to consume. So I think
a little bit of it is like a pushback on
(23:16):
there aren't certain types of media that are like by
nature worse or better. You actually just get to choose
what you like, which I think is really empowering and awesome.
But yeah, we all had the dog Yard Book, and
we hit the dog Yard Book right, and that was
in an era where you had to kind of hide it.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Exactly. It's so interesting though, because I distinctly remember my
grandma having like, do you guys have Mills and Boone?
What is that? Okay? So Mills and Boone is like this.
Maybe it's just an Australian thing, but it's like this
series of like smart books, like sexy romance books felt
(23:56):
like the generation of my grandma. Yeah, well maybe even
my mom so like, and they all look exactly the
same and on the front will be like this eighties
photoshopped image and I'll be like the Cowboy, yeah exactly.
It will be like the Cowboy and the Runaway like
(24:16):
something like that. It will be like the Mistress of
ohm On or like something, and it's just like and
it's just smuck. And my grandma used to have them
everywhere when we were kids. So it's it's interesting that
I still felt like shame around sex. I think because
I was like, oh my god, Grandma, that's so embarrassing.
But it was so it's so funny because I think
that it's just and it I think also she did
(24:39):
feel a bit of like shame, but then as she
got older, she was like, oh, I'm I'm an. I
still feel sexual urges, like I still feel pleasure. Wow,
and I'm.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Really powerful to hear that from your grandmother. That's really cool.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
She was, Oh, she's she's still alive. I don't know
why I was like gonna say she was. She is
like a very empower lady. And I think it, you know,
I actually got old at that actually became more evident
to me.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Well, you know, when we were first starting to think
about making Dipsy not just an idea but a company,
we were looking at the romance novel industry and it's amazing,
Like it drives the publishing industry, Like it is the
reason the publishing industry is afloat. Literally Amazon had to
create a different package in order to not lose money
because romance novel consumers read so many of them that
(25:25):
they were like literally taking Amazon out of business. The
business model wasn't working, so they had to create a
separate package for it. So there's like incredible, voracious demand
for this content, but we weren't seeing that demand kind
of trickle down to younger audiences. Why is that? Well,
like is the guy with the long hair on the horse,
like really the model of what's sexy anymore? Is that
(25:46):
it there's all sorts of kind of baggage that was
associated with the category that did really well for our
moms and our aunts and our grandmothers. And that's amazing,
Like this is not new, This is just new ways
of making this feel cool and contemporary, and like it
is talking about sex the way that you might talk
about it with your friends or like actually have it,
you know, out in the world. So I think it's
(26:08):
amazing that that existed, but I also think we should
be aware that that was very much like relegated as
this like silly little woman's thing, which happens a lot
where either sex is very very dangerous or sex is
like this like silly, safe little interest, and those like
those are the kind of the two places that it
can be. You know, our understanding of what pleasure is
is really really limited in the context of Western society.
(26:30):
You know, we've been taught to be good members of society,
and that our value is measured by what we make
or what we do, or by our success or maybe
buy how esteemed we are, and so we see pleasure
as like a distraction to what matters most, or worse,
like a place of no return, Like if we focus
on pleasure, we'll ignore all these more important parts of
our lives. And so pleasure is generally seen as the
(26:52):
stone where it's like allowed to exist if it feels guilty,
Like you can have it, but you better feel guilty
about it. That's like the regulating factor. And I think
the way that we treated romance novels for many, many
decades was that it's like, Okay, you can have your
silly little book that's safe, but like, let's make you
feel a little guilty about it to keep it in check,
because pleasure is seen as selfish, and pleasure is seen
as you know, you need to earn it, and the
(27:15):
worst worst case scenario, it's seen as dangerous, where like,
once you get a taste, what will happen? And frankly,
I think, in the context of our patriarchal society, as
you just called it out, if a woman knows what
true pleasure is, why wouldn't she just leave her husband,
Why wouldn't she break the family you did? Why wouldn't
she be out discovering and exploring. It was like, let's
not even give her a taste, right, And those are
(27:38):
the containers of thought that we still see when we
talk to our customers. We hear that all the time.
These are the things I'm afraid of. It's like, Eh,
if I'm experiencing pleasure, I'm wasting time, Or like if
I'm experiencing pleasure, that means someone else experiences less of it.
Or if I work hard enough and get thin enough,
then I deserve something.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Like we all know that feels like that second point
that you just said then was like like I've never
been able to identify which one that if I feel pleasure,
someone else.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Will feel less zero sum.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Oh my goodness. Ye, I'm shocked because I think that
that is an attitude that I've had for a very
long time. Definitely, Wow, that was like kind of my
going to me. But people are probably listening to this
being like, yeah, Dad, that's not true. But like, I
think it was just the way that you were able
to describe that. I guess that really Also, I want
(28:29):
to say, you're so right when you were talking about
the you know, the cowboy with the long hair, and
how this generation is is not particularly attracted to that depiction.
And I really think you know that it comes down
to people are more interested in a character psychologically nowadays.
Same way they don't want them to be. Yeah, they
(28:51):
don't want them to be like perfect, they want them
to be they want them to have some kind of
nuance and some kind of discoverability and some kind of
vulnerability that is interesting. It's not just about physical form.
It's not about being this like archetype and depiction of attractiveness.
(29:14):
It's it's we are like we we want to be
more psychologically satisfied by our characters.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
That's so well said, and you see that in fan fiction,
like you see the kind of like enemy that is
misunderstood and has so much more to offer, or the
kind of mysterious character that hasn't been fully understood until
one person can really see and understand them. And that's
some of the most common tropes that you're seeing happen
over and over again.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Yeah, definitely, your biggest example is Christian Gray. Yeah, that's
probably fifty shades gay like this, like torture.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Do you think he's redeemable often?
Speaker 1 (29:48):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
That's questions out here.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yeah, I actually did read that. I actually read that
series of my summer break this year.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Oh really, I think I wasn't a fan.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
I was, I wasn't a fan. I actually didn't love it.
I didn't love it. It was just at my beach
house and I had forgotten to bring a book because
I was hiking beforehand, and it was the only thing that.
Funnily enough, they actually had three copies, so it was
like me. Yeah, So it was like me and my
cousin and one of my best friends. We were all
(30:23):
reading it fun We book clubbed it like an accident.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Of what was the debrief?
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Like, I think it was like, you know, it was
so funny. At one point she won't mind me saying this,
but my cousin was like, got to this part that
I knew was like particularly spicy, and then she's like,
I'm just gonna go upstairs. Yeah, And I was like, you,
I think that is so valid. I think like our
(30:52):
consensus on it was like this is not actually that
appealing because it would be like I think the one
thing that I noticed about it was in all the
sex scenes, it was like she came really quickly. She
came within like three minutes, and I was like, and
then she'd be like, oh, wave of pleasure, and then
like he just kept going and then we would die. Yeah,
And I was like I do think. Yeah, anyhow, here's
(31:14):
my book review. Guys, no one asked for it, but
fifty Shades a great book group.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
I mean, fifty Shades blew open the idea of what
a romance novel could be, which I think many people
felt was like kind of this dowdy old school thing
and that's cool, Like that did amazing work, But was
it the best written version of what sex at its
most aspirational and sexy could be. I think most people think, no,
(31:37):
you know, the power dynamics at play there could have
been a lot more nuanced, and the pleasure could have
been a lot more mutual and like, listen to each
their own, Like some people love that book absolutely awesome,
power to you.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
But there.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
There needs to be more versions of what like a
really sexy piece of media can look like. And I
honestly I give credit to shows like Bridgerton that are
trying to figure those things out on the big screen,
which again wasn't happening five years ago. So I think,
like talk about generational shifts, like what millennials were consuming
is different than what gen z is consuming, Like it
literally is a different world of content out there.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Obviously, we've spent a large part of this episode talking
about sex, and sex is fun and sex is fascinating
and interesting. People love talking about sex. But there are
some other things about your life right now, your experience,
that I think would be equally valuable to share with
people in their twenties. The first one being that we
(32:40):
have almost a well we have a decade between us,
so you're kind of like you're kind of me in
my thirties, right, like where I'm at in my twenties
in your fingxactly. And I think that there is at
least around me in the people. I see this like
(33:00):
ending doom associated with turning thirty, and it's almost like
the clock ticks over. One of my friends the other
day said to me, she was like, oh, what did
she say? She was like, oh, thirty is when when
women die, like no longer I know. I was like,
(33:20):
I was like, I do people feel like, excuse me?
I know, I know. I was like, Clare, that is
not what we want to hear. But you are post thirties.
How has it been. What's what's been some of the
learnings in the new outlook on life? If there has
been one?
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Yeah, I think you know. I'm thirty three. So the
pandemic started when I was twenty nine. So like right
at the tail end of my twenties, I think all
of us in some ways felt like we were disrupted,
like we last something, we last college years, or we
lost like transition years in our twenties, or we lost
you know, I lost turning thirty, like that was just
lost to the wind of the pandemic. So there is
(33:56):
something unique and present right here and now. But you know,
speaking from my experience, my twenties were interesting because ten
years ago, fifteen years ago, it wasn't as common as
it is today to have queer friends that were out
of the closet when I was eighteen, or when I
was twenty or even when I was twenty three, Like,
I had plenty of friends that one of my friends
(34:17):
affectionately calls baby queers that were figuring out what it
means to feel safe out in the world as someone
who's stated as clear. And for those folks, you know,
you're working through that feeling of you should be more
experienced but aren't, and that can be really challenging you
in your twenties. And I think there's versions of that
that happened in our thirties too, Like we are all
baby clearing in some ways. Where maybe you hit thirty
(34:39):
and I've had this for plenty of friends and you're
deeper in monogamy with someone, you've been with someone for
a longer time, and you're like, hey, I actually want
to figure out not how to not how to have
good sex, but how to have great sex. What is
that going to look like for me. So I actually
see a lot of interests start to spike in maybe
like the twenty eight twenty nine zone, where people are like,
(35:00):
I want a self love journey, I want to love
my body, I want to enjoy sex. I want to
expand what my understanding of sex is. Maybe I want
to open up my relationship. There's like more play happening
with not just I want to have sex and I
want to have as much of it as possible, but like,
I really want to focus on quality, and I think
that that's really a big shift in the thirties. It's like,
how do I really focus on what quality is like
(35:21):
to me? Which is amazing. I think people always talk
about you feel less pressure as you grow older. I mean,
I don't know, you feel pressure in different ways, but
I think there's a little bit less of this, like
I need to be out. I don't know, tallying my
body account would be the worst way to say it,
but like out there and like pushing myself and I'm tired,
but I'm gonna go out on a Thursday. We feel
that less, I think, generally speaking in our thirties, but
(35:41):
we can still really attend to the moment we are
in our sexual journey and it's not finished. You know,
life certainly doesn't end at thirty. I love being thirty three.
I love being into my thirties. I think I can
definitely say that I love myself more now than I
did ten years ago, and I hope that that keeps growing.
And you know, the ernie is always there and bino
(36:02):
libido shifts right Like you might be twenty three and
a really little lebido at the time because your boss
is horrible and you're working super long hours, or you're
having body shame images, body image issues, and there's all
sorts of stuff going on, and then you might come
out of that and have a renaissance at thirty three.
You might have a renaissance at forty. Like the moments
that we're having the best sex in our lives are
(36:22):
certainly not maintained or like bound by our twenties. I
think actually most people that I speak to that are
past their twenties say they're having better sex now than
they did then. So it's ahead of you. Look forward
to it. There's a lot more life to live. I
think the greater interest in sexual self discovery is kind
of the big one that I feel really excited by.
You know, what does that look like for me? What's
(36:44):
that going to feel? Like? How am I going to
bring that out? What class am I going to take?
Am I gonna take a Shabari class? Am I gonna
learn to love my body through a dance class?
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Like?
Speaker 2 (36:53):
I see a lot more of that. It's a little
bit more like high intention, which I really respect.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
What's a shabari class?
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Rope tang? Like a complex kind of art but also
like a form of BDSM that involves knots and ropes.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Oh my god, wow, fascinating. There we go. I'm learning.
I had no idea what that was, but super super cool.
It's also good to hear I think that the best
is yet to come. It is such a trend like
hearing that I do think that our twenty so like
the quantity is yeah, we're like how many sexual experiences
(37:28):
can I have? How much alcohol can I drink? How
many countries can I visit? How many like you're mosting
really hard? How much money can I make? Like everything
is like yeah, it's like I just want the maximum
of everything, the maximum pleasure, And it's kind of tiring
to be honest and sometimes I just want like I'm like,
(37:49):
I'm cool with like the bare minimum.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Well, maybe that's another thing that I can speak to.
That you're thirty four, I think you give yourself a
lot more leeway to like feel the feeling that you're feeling,
and if that feeling is t that's okay, and that's
really liberating. I mean, I don't know if you're familiar
with the account then ministry, but I think it's like
really powerful stuff, yeah, around liberation coming from allowing yourself
(38:13):
to feel what you feel and if that feeling is tired,
to embrace it.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Yeah. I think it's also a massive shift in psychology
as well. Of Previously it was around treating the negative thoughts,
treating the self criticism, treating whatever's going on, and the
way to like treat it was to like shame it
out of ourselves or to suppress it, or to be
like go for a run, like go and do this,
(38:38):
go and distract yourself. And nowadays it's more like, actually
you need to sit with them, and anything else is
actually just going to exacerbate that feeling, that distress, whatever
that urge is. So you need to really like embrace
the good and the bad, which I think is such
a part of positive psychology and like more holistic psychology
(39:02):
that's like really coming through in this in this like
new generation of psychologists, so super fascinating. The other thing
I want to talk about is your journey through entrepreneurship.
I know it hasn't it has actually does have stuff
to do with sex. I know this is just like
a sex episode. Obviously you started Dipsy. How has that
been because I think we were talking about this before
(39:22):
we started recording like that. Yeah, yeah, I know we
should have started recording then, but it's still gonna be great. Yeah,
around like your journey through entrepreneurship, I feel like everyone
is fascinated by how you can start a business, what
makes a business, all of those kinds of things. Can
(39:42):
you talk us through were you working elsewhere before, like
the whole journey would be would be great to hear
your path through.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Yeah, I mean this could take hour or so, I'll
try and keep it brief. So before I started Dipsy,
I was a brand strategist, So I was helping brands
figure out how to meet people where they are with
what they could authentically offer and tell stories that people liked,
were interested in, and so storytelling was always part of
the mix. I studied psychology and undergrad and oh I
(40:10):
got I didn't. And I have always been really curious
about what people want, what makes them tick, and why
they do different things than what they state that they want,
just really you know, just fascinating stuff, just the baseline
of you know, human behavior. And then I met my
co founder, and it was right around the time that
I had this idea. And I think the moment that
(40:31):
you take the idea to the reality of like, I'm
quitting my job, I will not be making money, I'm
going to put all of my eggs in this basket
definitely helps when you have someone who is equally passionate
about that idea. So I think that we really supported
each other when the other was feeling a little bit
like ah, the other person was there to be you know,
there's only room for one person at a time to
(40:52):
be having a freak out, right, and so we got
to balance each other in those ways and be like, no,
this is really compelling the researches here and why.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
While I was a.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Natural storyteller and was excited to figure out what this
content was going to sound like Fay is an engineer,
and Fay knows how to build a product, and so
we were kind of a perfect team to make it happen.
So I think finding for someone that you have good
fit with but also someone who you really trust and
really like matters a lot. Like you're going to be
spending so much time with whoever you decide to be
your business partner, should you follow that path, so that
(41:23):
selection matters. And I would say that mattered in the
last five years even more than my romantic partner, if
you can believe it, We've spent so much time together,
like in many ways she is my other partner.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
Really all that's actually quite beautiful to hear that. Also,
that fear of like transitioning from being like I've quit
my job to doing this, that is so scary.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
It's so high conviction, right, like you are really saying
and I really believe this, and then you are asked
questions every day to push back on whether what you
believe is true, and so you have many chances a
day to be like, do I still believe this? Right?
And you really just have to keep believing it. And
I think that if that feels excited because you feel
such high conviction in something that's amazing and otherwise wait
(42:05):
for an idea that really makes you feel that way,
because that conviction will be tested on a daily basis,
and there will be many people that don't believe. And
that's hard. That knocks your ego. I really had to
work on my self esteem through that problem, Like, what
if not everyone thinks this is what I should be
spending my time doing. What if not everyone thinks this
will work? What if not everyone thinks this is important.
It's hard enough already just every day figuring out how
(42:27):
to do it, but it's harder when other people don't
necessarily think it's yeah. You know, does a fifty year
old white man who my dad's business partner think that
Dipsy's is important as a twenty five year old who
is so excited this product exists. Of course not, but
there are people like that, and so finding that people
that remind you of why this matters to you and
(42:47):
reminds you of as being important along the journey is
also really huge. We were talking about that earlier too.
It's helpful in the world of podcasting, you're like alone
a lot. It's helpful to get ot there and be
like Wow, I meet you and you really like what
I'm doing. That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
It's also what you were talking about, the idea that
comes along. I've watched this amazing Ted talk the other
day that was explaining how ancient civilizations used to think
that the ideas lived in the walls and in the wind,
and so like an idea would come to you in
the wind and you had to like grab it, and
(43:20):
you had like a responsibility to grab it out and
hold on to it super tight because and you can
see the ideas like floating by. I think a lot
of people have like million dollar ideas on a daily basis.
I think everyone has had a million dollar idea, but
it's like they just let it float by then grab
it and it is it takes a lot of courage
to do both things. I think it takes a lot
(43:41):
of courage to be like, oh, you know, I actually
have a family right now and I can't do that
or I need to focus on my studies, but also
a lot of courage to be like you know, I
think that was my experience. I was like the first
couple of months first year, it was like I didn't
get any listens I've really it was just like my
family and close friends, and it just like you just
got to push through and believe in what you're doing exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Maybe those are my two biggest learnings.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Is that possible?
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Could I boil it out to two, that'd be a miracle.
But I think, you know, what you just said is
so right, Like there are some people that say, like,
I have the grit and I'm willing to push through it,
and I'm willing to deal with a year maybe even
more where I'm not getting the feedback that I want yet,
but I just believe and I keep pushing. And there
are other people that think like that actually sounds more
terrifying than fun. And I don't know if I have
that sort of grit. And I actually feel really happy
(44:29):
pursuing something where someone is telling me what they need
and I'm doing my job really well, and that is
an equally respectable path. And in many ways I envy
that in my hardest days because being entrepreneurs, like, oh
my god, is responsibilities on me all the time or
me my co founder all the time. So talk about
the shame thing, It's like, there's no shame in finding
what works for you and entrepreneurship definitely isn't for everyone,
(44:50):
but if you really feel excited to hold tight to
that idea and like you just want to prove and
like great, grab it. And your twenties are a great
time for that because you're full of energy and like,
you know, what else are you doing? Let's just try it,
and so it's an amazing time. It's an amazing time.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
Also, I think if you fuck up, it's like that
was my whole thing. I was like, I have nothing
to lose by doing this. I have nothing to lose,
like if I fuck up, Yeah, it's like I really was,
like and also when when am I going to do this? Otherwise? Like, yeah,
when else am I going to take this risk? You
know in my you know, things could happen at any point,
(45:29):
like yeah, you have children, you have a mortgage, like
you're getting promoted your family members. Ill, like I need
to go back and do this, like do my master's.
I need to. Like I think that it was just
such a sometimes everything just kind of aligns, but like
you will be texted. I've learned that like the universe,
the universe, like some like I think that anything worth
(45:54):
having isn't easy. Otherwise everyone would have it so wise
I know that such like it. Sometimes people like yeah,
sometimes people give me, like give me a little bit
of flack for that. They're like, yeah, a lot of
things that are worth having it easy. But I'm like, yeah,
but I think that there are some things that aren't,
you know, like not everyone everyone wants a goal. Yeah
I want an Olympic medal.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Right. The phrase that I like to use is like,
what game do you want to be playing and what
pain are you willing to tolerate? And so maybe you
are the kind of person who can really deal with
challenging personalities and that's just like kind of you know,
water off your back.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
It's it's not.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Super stressful to you, but for other people that's like
intensely uncomfortable. And so maybe you know, being a nurse
in a hospital isn't the job for you because that
is like sort of pain that you'd be encountering on
a daily basis. Okay, so maybe that's not the game
that you play, but yeah, life is. I think about
picking the games that you want to play and knowing
that like, no path is going to be like default wonderful.
(46:51):
There's all there's so many things about being entrepreneurs are
so wonderful. You pick who you work with, you choose
the problems you want to work on, you decide how
you want to spend your time, and you own them. Like,
those are really amazing things. But the downside of that,
if you don't like it is you feel like, oh
my god, I have all this time. What am I
supposed to do with it? How am I supposed to
organize it? How am I supposed to use it? I
have to pick people. That's so hard, Like, I don't
(47:11):
like hiring. I find that really stressful. Like there's all
sorts of ways that you can see the same thing
in two different directions, And yeah, so probably I could
bring that all the way back to what feels good
for you, Like if you're paying attention to what feels
good for you and you're like, I end this day
feeling like it was exhausting, but I'm not depleted, I'm
(47:32):
just tired.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Cool.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Yeah, there's a difference there.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
Jana, thank you so much for coming on the show.
This is possibly one of my favorite episodes. I don't
know why I haven't spoken about sex and pleasure before.
There's so much psychology and like so many facets of
it that definitely need to be explored more. I want
to also say this episode was not sponsored. I just
(47:57):
really love dipsy. It was not sponsored in any capacity. However,
if you do want to download this app, experience it's
some amazing storytelling, it's some amazing audio content. It's a
little bit different to mine. You can go to what's
it dipsy dot com slash psych twenty.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
No, you can head two dipsystories dot com slash Psych twenty.
That's dip sea stories dot com slash psych twenty.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
There you go and you get.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
You'll get thirty days free, so you can explore literally
every piece of content to your heart's desire for thirty
days and decide if it's right.
Speaker 1 (48:34):
Breathe, Oh my goodness, look at that. It's free. You
may as well do it. You may as well just
download it for thirty days and listen to some fun stories,
do some exploring. Yeah, do some exploring. I think that's
really really valuable.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
And I would also definitely say follow us on TikTok
and Instagram. We put all sorts of fun content, educational
content out there that's at dipsy stories on both TikTok
and Instagram. I think the stuff we put up there
is amazing, and our social media manager is a wizard.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
Actually, I did see something on TikTok the other day
and it was like one of your stories, like your
stories and like yeah, and it was like over this
like tree backdrop, and I was like, wow, who.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
We targeted your effect?
Speaker 1 (49:15):
Oh my god to hear you're my alcohol and just
like and I follow I follow you guys, but not okay, yeah,
but like this one in particular was like I was like,
it's spoke me out. Yeah, it was really good. I
literally was like, oh, when you listen to a cute
little story, Thank you so much again for coming on.
I really think that what you're doing is amazing. Thank
you so much for listening to today's episode. As always,
(49:36):
if you feel cool to do so, please feel free
to leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
wherever you're listening right now. Make sure you go and
check out dipsy of course, and if you have an
episode suggestion. If you just want to follow along, please
follow me at that Psychology podcast on Instagram and on
TikTok to see what's coming out, to see what we
(49:58):
have in the works. We would love to see you
over there and as always, have a lovely week. We
will be back with another episode in a couple of
days
Host
Jemma Sbeghen
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