October 10, 2024 • 44 mins
What is the cost of caring too much for others? Always being the person to fix everyone's problems? Never needing anyone, but secretly loving that everyone else relies on you? Well, it turns out it can cost you and your relationships a lot, and may also be a sign of high functioning codependency. High functioning codependency is much more common amongst people who are overachieving, overgiving and who have few boundaries (even if they don't know it).
In today's episode, we are joined by the originator of this term. Terri Cole is a psychotherapist and boundary expert who has been investigating this phenomena for years in her high functioning and highly successful clients. She shares the traits, behaviours, costs and ways to improve your high functioning codependency. This was one of my favourite episodes to date, happy listening!
Buy Terri's new book here: https://www.soundstrue.com/products/too-much?srsltid=AfmBOor1-0MHrQayS-ZdUANvTC5qC-T4e1Bpxotu8cti1CqOVVizKO17
Follow Terri here: @terricole
Terri's resources: https://www.terricole.com/
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For business: psychologyofyour20s@gmail.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the podcast where we talk through some of the big
life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.
(00:25):
Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners. Wherever
you are in the world, it is so great to
have you here. Back for another episode as we, of
course break down the psychology of our twenties. Codependency is
a word that gets thrown around a lot in the
self help space, but it's also incredibly misunderstood, and a
(00:48):
lot of us don't really understand the pattern of behaviors
it describes. We also tend to believe that we would
be really good at recognizing codependency. When we see it,
we think of someone who lacks boundaries around others, who
is incredibly emotionally sometimes physically dependent on other people. But
what about those situations when codependency doesn't look like the
(01:10):
codependency that we've typically come to expect. What happens when
it looks like being the person that others always come
to when they're in trouble, always being the one to
make group plans organize travel, divvy up the check, never
having a minute for yourself or feeling very exhausted by
everyone else's emotions needs preferences. Could that also be codependency?
(01:34):
We tend to really reward and praise this kind of
self sacrificing and giving behavior, and we see it as selfless.
But are we really just trying to control a situation?
Do we just feel more secure when we are in charge.
All of this indicates something called high functioning codependency, which
is a more invisible form of codependency really common amongst overgiving,
(01:58):
over extending individuals. And I want to talk about it
today because it is a concept that has just fascinated me,
and to talk about it, I want to welcome on
the psychotherapist and the boundary expert Terry Cole, who discovered
this phenomenon and who talks about it a lot to
people worldwide. So Terry, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Oh thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I'm really really excited. Can you give a little intro
tell people who you are before we dive into my questions.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
For you today. Sure, I am a psychotherapist and a
relationship expert. I'm a boundary expert communication I have been
doing this for twenty seven years. I am the author
of a book called Boundary Boss, and I have a
new book that's coming out in October. Who actually this
drips on the eleventh, So on the fifteenth of this month,
(02:47):
called too Much a guide to break in the cycle
of high functioning codependency. So I'm really an expert in
female empowerment, Like, that's really what my dealer is. I
was a talent age negotiating contracts for supermodels and celebrities
before I became a psychotherapist. So I left this career
that nobody really understood why I was leaving that career.
(03:11):
My father was like, hello, what are you doing? You're
going to become a social Like what, Hello, why are
you doing that? And it's interesting when you have a
different career before becoming a therapist. But I was motivated
by my own experience in therapy. I just couldn't even
believe how much you could change your own life, and
that it really did not matter what cards I was dealt,
(03:34):
like that shit did not determine the hand I was
going to play in life. I decided I don't like
that hand. I don't even like the fucking game. I'm
not even playing this game. I'm making up an entirely
new game, which is what I did. But I was
able to see that possibility because of my own personal
evolution and therapy. And then even though I had this fancy,
very shiny career that everyone thought was amazing and I
(03:57):
was making a ton of cash, and I was in Hollywood,
you know, this was New York in LA I was
by coastal. It's like I had. It was fancy, but
I wasn't happy, and you just get to a point
where you can't, Like I just could no longer deny
that the only thing I cared about was the mental
health of the models. I was like, you need to
change careers, dude, because you don't even want to be
(04:19):
here anymore doing this. But I really wanted to help people,
and so I was in my early thirties when I
decided to become a psychotherapist, and I've been doing that
for twenty seven years.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
That is an incredible story, just incredible, and honestly, it
is very indicative of a calling. It's just so clear
to me when you're explaining that, it's like, oh this, yeah,
it wasn't the right fit for you, because there was
a high thing that obviously maybe your soul, your personality
was calling you to And now you've done some incredible,
(04:51):
incredible work in this space. What initially so you wrote
this incredible book on boundaries, which really I would recommend.
You're also YouTube channel, and I was reading some of
the comments on a video that you did around boundaries,
and the amount of people who are like wow, like
my eyes are suddenly opened to an entirely new reality.
I think that is the power of talking about mental health,
(05:13):
talking about psychology, embracing therapy. What drew you to codependency
in the same way that you were initially drawn into
this space?
Speaker 2 (05:25):
The reason I'll just share quickly, like why did I
come up with high functioning codependency?
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Right?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Why? What was there not enough on codependency? Well, the
answer is there wasn't and it wasn't the right stuff
for my clients. So what I saw over and over
again is that I would have I have these baller
women who are CFOs, I mean international pop star like,
you know, people who are crushing the game of life,
(05:52):
and not all and then some are stay at home
moms which are amazing too, right, and not everyone had
huge careers, but a lot did. And I use them
as an example because so much of the time people
will look at someone who's the CFO of a company
I'm making two point five million dollars a year and
be like, obviously they have it all together. And yet
when I would say to any one of those people, hey,
(06:13):
what you're describing in your relationship is a codependent pattern.
That's what I'm saying, they would immediately reject it and
be like, yeah, lady, I'm not dependent on squad. Everybody's
dependent on me. I'm making all the money, I'm making
all the moves, I'm controlling all the people. I'm managing
everything in the home, I'm managing all the kids, I'm
(06:33):
my family of origin, I'm organizing all the shit. So
they couldn't see. So I realized, Oh, my clients don't
know what codependancy is. So what happened is they were
stuck in the old school melody baby codependent. No more,
you have to be enabling an alcoholic in order to
be a codependent, and that just is not accurate. It
(06:55):
just isn't true, you know. So when I added functioning
to go dependency and explain to my clients what it is.
When you are overly invested in the feeling states, the
outcomes right, the relationships, the finances, the feelings, all of
it of the people in your life, to the detriment
of your own internal peace right. And we need that
(07:18):
caveat because it's not the same. Of course, we're all
invested in the people we love being happy. Obviously, we're
like normal nice people. When you're a high functioning codependent,
it's more than that. It's like we feel compelled to
take it on. We feel actually responsible for other people's
(07:40):
feeling states and their outcomes and at its You know,
when I added the high functioning to the definition, my clients,
all of them, without shame, raise their hands saying it's me.
I'm the problem. It's me. Not to quote Taylor, but
I will. I will put interested you know what I mean.
Though we're they felt like, yeah, that's true. I am overfunctioning,
(08:03):
I am overgiving. I do do more than my share.
I am doing all the emotional labor in my home.
And I am pissed because that's the thing. You could
do that for a long time. Sooner or later, that
shade is a one way take it to bitter land, Like, yeah,
there's only so long you can do it, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Absolutely, And it was interesting when I was looking into this,
where it's just how much I resonated with this concept
where you get into this mindset of being like, I'm
so I'm I'm giving so much, but you realize that
actually all that you're allowing in that process of giving,
actually you're just allowing boundaries to be crossed for the
(08:42):
sake of others, and you don't realize that actually you
are assuming that you are giving people everything for everything
for them, and that you are doing what's best for them,
but actually they would be better off if you had
stronger boundaries. They would actually be better off if you
were more able to not just say no, but to
(09:04):
have like entire systems in place in the first place,
and expectations around what they could come to you for
what you were able to do the time you needed
for yourself. And as you said, when you add that
high functioning component, I think that also reduces some of
the perhaps stigma around codependency, that codependency is only about
(09:27):
people who just want to spend a lot of time
with each other, or only about people who enable substance use.
It's actually not the case, it shows up in a
lot of vary As you said, high achieving women, high
achieving individuals who are perhaps using codependency as a way
to stay secure and stay in control of other people's
(09:50):
feelings and therefore their own feelings. So what are some
of the typical indicators. If you were talking to a
therapy client and you said to them, well, you know,
I think that functioning cardependency is something that you might
relate to. What would you describe to them? What kind
of individual would you describe to them?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Well? I think yes, I would describe to them, which
I would describe to you, the traits, and then we
would hit the behaviors, and then we would hit the costs,
and then we could hit what you can do about it? Right,
how we can change it? So let's do it in
that order, shall we?
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yes? Please?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Traits, feeling responsible for fixing other people's problems, giving till
it hurts, right, going above and beyond, even when you're
not asked to, And a lot of times, a lot
of the shit I was doing my twenties, nobody was asking,
and I still felt underappreciated for it. I always ready
to jump into damage control mode, like at the ready
for any crisis. We are the friend that you want
(10:46):
to be in the foxhole with because we're good in
a crisis. A kind of being a little judge of
others because deep down we really kind of think we
know what they should be doing, or a little bit
like if Betty had just listened to me and broken
up with that idiot six months ago, she wouldn't be
crying right now. We can get a little self righteous,
getting frustrated and angry when other people don't take our
(11:08):
grade a advice, feeling exhausted, resemful, bitter, burnt out. So
those are traits behaviors well, auto advice giving, just giving
unsolicited advice to any and all who will listen, being
overly self sacrificing. Again, as you just kind of described,
(11:32):
like doing all the things for other people, auto accommodating.
So I want to talk about this concept that I
also originated because it was something that I suffered from.
I was like, I cannot be the only person where
this is happening. So it was a Saturday. I was
in my salon in New York City and it was
super busy, and I normally don't go on Saturday because
its like a zoo in there, but I had to go.
(11:53):
And I'm sitting there and as busy as hell, and
I'm laying in a sink. I've got my hair mask
on my hair, and now the sink traffic is started
to back up, and every time another person is standing
there with a towel around their head, waiting or whatever,
I'm getting more and more anxious because here I am
taking up a sink, but like nobody's doing anything to me, right,
I'm just sitting here. I could be sitting somewhere else
with letting this masks it. So anyway, I call over
(12:17):
the assistant and say, hey, I could move, you know,
And of course she's looking at me like, no shit, lady,
I know you could move, but I don't need you
to because I do this every Saturday. I mean, she
was nice, she was like, we're good, okay. And I
had this realization. I was like, this is how you
are everywhere toir. You're so dialed into your external environment
(12:38):
it feels like you are responsible for right. I felt
responsible for the sink flow for no good reason, seeing
as how I was a customer as well. And I
actually just this is only five years ago, and I
actually put it on I put it on YouTube, right.
I just did it like a quickly video and it
(13:00):
went totally viral and people were just like, oh my god,
that is me. So auto accommodating is when you basically
see a need in your environment and you just want
to jump in and vix it. You just want to
jump in and help you just you know. And again
a lot of people will say to me online, I mean,
I'm just being nice, Like what's wrong with being nice?
(13:21):
And I'm like, here's the thing. If you can't not
do it, you're not being nice. It is a compulsion.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Oh wow, A bit of a truth bumb that.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Right, Which is why the way that I walk you
through it in the book and the way I walk
you through it in my community is that we get
into recovery from high functioning codependency, but we don't get
cured because this is a discipline. To change these behaviors
takes time. You know. Other behaviors are anticipatory planning. You
(13:54):
know you're going to be with people. I tell a
story in the book about my friend who is dating
this person. It was just such a just such a jerk.
I hated this person. But anyway, but we were going
away so that her partner was coming, and I this
was someone who just kicked up my codependancy hardcore because
they were so difficult and then they torture my friend
and it just was like a nightmare being with them.
(14:16):
But anyway, I would make sure that we're you know,
if there were different rooms to stay, and that they
stayed in the nicest room so that he didn't complain.
And I would make sure that whatever he drank, we
would have that booze that Like, there was all these
things and I realized later, I was like, why just
don't go away with them? You don't like this guy? Like,
but that's what anticipatory plan is. You might do it
(14:37):
with family, right, two people who don't like each other.
You're like, well, I won't set them near each other.
Instead of that's very HFC to try to we're manipulating
and we're like puppet mastering what's happening, as opposed to
having a conversation with the family members saying, hey, if
you two can't figure it out, neither one of you
rore invited to Christmas? Right, Like why not you know,
(14:57):
talking true, just having a straight conversation. But as an HFC.
Usually we don't do that. We're all good girls, we're
all you know, we all want to be nice. We
don't want people to think that we're not nice. Other
behaviors is just overfunctioning, and the overfunctioning and underfunctioning dynamic
is super common with hfc's where I say that I
(15:19):
could take in my twenties, I could take a perfectly
capable boyfriend and turn him into an underfunction in two
weeks or less.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah, in the sense that you could take on all
of his responsibilities. You could plan the dates, you could
plan his life, what laundering he needs to be doing,
when he needs to call his mom, whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yes, maybe not down to that minutia, but ye, like was,
there wasn't room for them. Because the mantras of HFCs
are like I got it is one major mantra. We
just can't stop being like I got it good, to
talk good, I got it right, because we are so
capable though so a lot of times we do got it.
(15:59):
But just because you ken doesn't mean you should all
the time, you know, or another mantra is it has
to be me. It's like this belief that other people
won't do it as well, won't do it the way
we want it done, won't do it in a timely fashion,
so it's just easier to do it myself. Is a
(16:20):
lot of what we're saying in our minds. So what
is the cost of all this? Do you want to
talk about that?
Speaker 1 (16:28):
I want to talk about that, but firstly I want
to just quickly ask this question because before we get
into the cost, I really want to know what's at
the root of this because I'm listening to you talk
about this and a few things have come out for me.
The first one is maybe an element of perfectionism. Like
you said, there is a sense that the only way
that you can fully control an outcome is if you
are beside every single behavior, action, everything that led you
(16:52):
leads you to the place, Or the only way to
control whether Christmas is going to go well is if
you carefully curate the seating plan, you make sure everyone happy.
So maybe it's perfectionism. Then I'm thinking maybe it's control.
But then also like an element of people pleasing, right,
I like what you said before around is it really
kindness or is it a compulsion? Look, are you actually
(17:16):
at your core a nice person? Or can you just
not fathom the idea of people not liking you or
things not happening in the way that makes you feel
safe and secure. So what is really at the root
of this? Is it a combination of these three things
or is there another ingredient that maybe I'm missing as
well well.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I think you are very astute because those ingredients, I mean,
the foundation of all codependency, but especially high functioning codependency
is control. It is an overt or covert bid to
control other people's outcomes. We just don't want our friend
marrying the stupid idiot. We don't. We want to do
(17:53):
everything we can to help our see the light. We
don't want our partner getting fired, so we will you know, not,
we will make more money and let them flounder, like
you know what I mean, Like there's we will overfunction
to protect other people from feeling bad. Of course, ultimately
it makes them feel worse, so it doesn't really work
(18:16):
in that way. So yes, over and underfunctioning. Yes, perfectionism,
but control is such a big part of it, and
because it has such a negative connotation, people don't want
to identify with it. But that is absolutely what it is.
We could, you know, you could call it whatever the
hell you want to call it, but that that is
what it is. We want to control other people's outcomes.
But in the process of being so driven unconsciously, so
(18:39):
much of this is unconscious. It's like there's so much
self abandonment that goes on because we just want peace
as agypcies, we just don't We just want there to
be peace in the valley. We just want everyone to
be happy, right, we just don't want problems, and so
that kind of piece like we won't say anything. You know,
(19:01):
what's her name, sheral Ridchardson has a great quote that
it's like, you know, not speaking up to keep the
peace or of war within ourselves.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
That is spot on, spot on. I've got another question
for that, actually, sure, because you're staying control and I
feel like this is my own personal therapy session, right
because control is my my big problem. Yes, is there
have you found that there is an overlap or maybe
(19:34):
a correlation between people with high functioning codependency and those
of us who are eldest daughters or people who are
the eldest sibling who have perhaps been socialized in conditioned
to take on all this responsibility the same way that
maybe a mother would or maybe someone in charge of
the family would have you found that there is an overlap,
(20:00):
maybe a correlation between people with high functioning coredependency and
those of us who are eldest daughters.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Ye, without a doubt, a lot of eldest daughter syndrome,
but also a lot of good girl syndrome. Yeah, so
in any any place that you are in the family system,
because if you think about family systems, right, there's all
these different roles that people play, and everyone was from
some kind of a disordered family system. I mean who wasn't.
(20:28):
So if my family system, my father was a high
functioning alcoholic, so you know, had a great job, a
great career, retired at fifty like I mean, you know,
did well, but it doesn't change. You know, how he
managed his emotions was with alcohol, and you know, we
were raised to be good girls and the focus when
(20:50):
you have there are different ways that the family systems are.
In a family system where there is addiction of any kind,
most people in the family system are organizing around that person.
So in a healthy family system, it is child focused.
I don't mean child obsessed, I just mean child focused,
where the activities are around what the children need. In
(21:13):
a more dysfunctional system, the activities are around it. Could
be a designated patient, right, it could be someone with
mental health, could be someone who's physically unwell, could be
an abuser that people organize around. But you learn how
to go along to get along. Nobody needs to send
you like a note when you're seven to figure out
how to avoid being rejected, how to avoid being abused,
(21:38):
like you immediately know it intuitively, how to be helpful,
how to go make mommy's next drink, even if mommy
is an alcoholic, because you're a part of the solution
and you don't want her to be mad or to
judge you, or to reject you. So a lot of
times those things make a difference too. I grew up
(21:58):
as the hero child family system. So that's the one
where everyone can agree that that person is amazing, no
matter what else is going on. But so you sort
of have it on your shoulders to like make the
family look good. Right, Yes, everyone can agree that you're good,
you're a winner, you know what I mean. But none
(22:19):
of these roles are free. So all of the family systems,
whether you're the scapegoat, whether you're you know what I mean,
all those roles play a part, but I find that
a lot of hfc's are eldest daughters or first generation,
or their parents were first generation. You know, there's a
lot of that too, because there's so much culture. I mean,
(22:42):
how do we have a downloaded HFC blueprint all of
us do, which is basically your relational blueprint. And this
is made up of what you learned in your family
of origin, the country you grew up in, the culture,
the society, your role in the family system. All of
these things sort of coalesce come together, and this makes
(23:04):
up the unconscious material that is in your mind that
tells you this is the way I should relate in
the world, whether it's with the people at church, whether
it's with my partner, whether it's with my friends, whether
it's with my cousins, whatever, right we have how it
should be type of thing. And part of this process,
I'm getting healthier and I walk people through it in
(23:25):
Boundary Boss, and we also walk through it in too Much,
in different with different lenses, right, because in too Much
we're really looking at what did you learn about the
way you're supposed to relate to other people in specific situations?
And the world though, because with hfc's it's different than
sort of regular codependency because we can get we can
(23:48):
become codependent with people we don't even freaking know barely,
like because we're concerned about others, we can sort of
get codependent with our environment and people we meet list
I did, and I see this in my clients as well.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Oh I'm just listening to you talk about this, but
you can see me just nodding my head, being like yeah,
tick tick tick. And it's interesting what you said around
it being almost wide and to our subconscious or unconscious,
especially as children, but also coming to us almost as
a blueprint. We all have this capacity, and of course
(24:25):
the blueprint that we all have as children comes from
a place of survival. That's why we are born to
be particularly accommodating to the needs of a caregiver or
a parent, because we are reliant on them. It's why
we are born to born in being able to chameleon,
being able to please others. It's all survival. So is
(24:46):
that also where high functioning codependency comes from is at
some point you've learnt a pattern of behavior that's made
life easier for you by allowing you to be more
in control. Is that also something that you see a
lot do.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
And the thing is it's in a way, it's an
illusion of control, but it does make sense. And along
the same lines, if we're talking about childhood, you might
have a lot of people being parentified in childhood. So
there's two different ways of being parentified. One is emotional.
If you have a parent who talked to you like
you were a grown up, told you things about themselves
(25:21):
that wasn't appropriate, or shared adult burdens with you about
we don't have the money to pay the lights or whatever.
You know, that's one way. It's almost like the emotional parentification.
And then there's the actual parentification of the physical where
you might be making dinner for younger siblings, you might
(25:42):
be expected to clean the house. You might like anyone
who is parentified, and if you had addicted parents or
alcoholic parents or parents with mental health challenges, you might
have been like the only sort of adult in the
room even though you were ten. So what does this do?
What does it create? It creates high functioning codependency and
(26:05):
the abilities like imagine if you're cooking dinner at nine,
you're capable as hell. Imagine how capable you are by
nineteen twenty nine thirty nine. It's like there's not anything
you can't figure out. And when you have a childhood
like that, right, it makes you very, very committed to
(26:30):
figuring it out because the alternative is feeling out of control,
is feeling victimized, is being victimized. But a lot of
those things that were adaptive in childhood become maladaptive in adulthood,
so we have to revisit them and go, does this
make sense? Should I be doing all of these things
(26:50):
for all of these people? Is this in my highest
and best drist? Do I have the bandwidth to do
this rather than being on autopilot?
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yeah? I think this is a great transition into talking
about the cost, because you really introduced this to us.
So what does this cost us individually but also in
terms of our relationships as well. When we think we
might be helping someone, we think we might be this loving,
giving person. I have a feeling that you're going to
tell us that maybe that isn't always the most beneficial thing.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Yeah, that's true, because here's the thing. I'll tell you
a quick story and I share it in the book,
But this is what actually changed my life when it
comes to codependency and high function codependency. In my twenties,
one of my sisters was in a bad situation with
someone who was doing a crack addict and she was
(27:44):
an active alcoholic and they were living in a house
in the woods with no running water and no electricity,
and he was abusive. So, I mean, for an HFC,
it's like a five alarm fire every day, and I
was obsessed with how am I going to save her
from this? To hell? You know, like, what am I
going to do? So I was crying to my therapist
and bowing my eyes out and saying, you know, Bev,
(28:06):
I've done everything. What am I going to do? And
she said, Terry, let me ask you something. What makes
you think you know what your sister needs to learn
in this lifetime and how she needs to learn it.
But do you know what's happening for you and all this?
And I was like, obviously no, I do not, Please
clue me in. And she said, Terry, you've worked really
hard to create a harmonious life. Your sister's dumpster fire
(28:30):
is really messing with your piece. You want your pain,
you want to you want that to be fixed because
ultimately you want your pain to end. She is not wrong. Yeah,
that is true.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yeah, and so do you think it was an element
of like in your attempts to soothe yourself and to
not to say eliminate, but to fix this like stress
up for you, Because of course, when it comes to
very close relationships, you feel it someone else pain, especially
as a sibling, especially as someone in your family, there
(29:03):
is a bond there that is incredibly otherworldly. Do you
think that actually the relationship you have with your sister
deteriorated or did it get to a point of her
not listening to you? Because I've had this before with
people where and I've learnt this with friends where it's
like you can't tell someone to just break up with
their boyfriend or break up with their girlfriend or their partner,
(29:25):
because all that's going to happen is they'll just stop
telling you the bad stuff. So you're actually not helping them,
and you're in your attempts to fix it, like you're
actually further isolating them. What ended up happening with her
in that situation, if you want to share, of course.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah, no, I do. I've wrote about it in the book,
so I've already shared it so noble. I said to
my therapist, so what do I do then? Like, what
are my options now? And she said, Terry, you need
boundaries because I remember it was my twenties and I
was the boundaryless wonder. So I had no boundaries. And
I didn't even know I could have boundaries with my sister.
(30:03):
I had no idea. I was like, what I could
be a good sister and do that. She said, listen,
you don't have to let her talk to you about
this guy, but you can be there if she needs you.
So I talked to my sister. I said, hey, I
can't talk about this with you. It's so painful and
disruptive for my life, but I love you and when
and if you ever really want to get out, I'll
always be your person. I'll always be your person. And
(30:25):
she really understood. She was like, you know what, I
get it okay. And we talked a few times in
nine months, and then she called me and said I'm ready.
Are you still my person? And I was like, oh, yes,
I am, got in my car, went and picked her up.
And the most important aspect of this story is that
by doing that, my sister was ready to change what
(30:49):
wasn't working in her life instead of her youngest sister
being the hero in her story, which is what we're
doing when we insert ourselves, when we can't stop telling
people what to do, we're literally centering ourselves in that
person's problem. It's so God, that was the hardest thing
for me to like wrap my own mind around. I
was like, oh, is that what I'm doing. That's terrible.
(31:12):
But she ended up finally coming to it, she got sober,
she got back to school. My husband and I helped
her in an appropriate way. But she is the hero
of her own story. It's not about me, It's about her.
And I loved her enough to tolerate the way that
felt right, because that's what love is. Love is an
auto fixing other people. Love is being like, I'll be
(31:33):
in the fox hole with you, even when you're suffering,
and even when I think you could end your suffering
by ending this relationship. But she wasn't ready, just because
I was ready for her to do it, and it stuck.
She never went back with him, She never got into
another relationship like that. And that was This is decades ago.
You know, she's gone on to have a career. It's
like she did that herself. And we rob people of
(31:58):
their sovereignty when and their dignity when we're endlessly thinking
we know what they should be doing, so what can
we do instead?
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Right?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
The cost to us is great to burn out health, bitterness,
living life light is what I call it. When we're
constantly obsessed and you know, in our minds about other
people and other things, we're not fully present in our
own life, and life hits different when you're kind of
only half here. It's like half as juicy as it
(32:29):
should be, half as amazing as it should.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Love that one.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yeah, I do.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
It's so true. And we're not fully self expressed because
we're not focusing on us, we're focusing on others, And
then we have the cost to the other people their
autonomy right, not accepting them where they are. People become projects.
Nobody likes that. They do not like it, and I
hate it when I feel like someone thinks I'm I'm
a project. I want to punch them. I'm like, hey man,
(32:55):
look at my life. Does it seem like I need
your advice? I don't. Please stop giving it to me.
It's very dehumanizing, which is not what we're trying to do,
so what can we do instead? And when you guys
were listening, we're like, okay, great, thank you, I'm identified
Now what can I do? Well, let's hope that you've
raised your awareness through this conversation that we're having. You
(33:16):
need to take a look at your boundaries. And when
we're HFC is a lot of times we're the ones
trampling on other people's boundaries inadvertently we're not meaning to.
But when you give someone advice who hasn't asked you
for advice, when you just transfer money into someone's account
because you're worried they're not going to make their rent, right.
I had a client who was paying rent for like
(33:38):
thirty eight year olds on or whatever it was. Oh,
I was like, you know, She's like, well, just in
case he doesn't have enough, And I'm like, this is
what I think is happening. Here's the subtext of that.
Your son who's mismanaging is money comes to you and says,
I don't think I can do it. I don't think
(33:58):
i'm going to make it. I don't know how to
do that. I think I'm a loser. You giving him
money monthly? What are you saying I agree with you.
I agree. I think you're a loser too. I don't
think you're going to do it either. Wow.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
And did she stop doing it?
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yes? But the thing is she changed it. I was like,
the conversation isn't about cutting him off. The conversation is
about believing in him. I have faith that you are resourceful,
and I know that you're going to figure this out.
And I don't think i've been helping you. And I'm sorry,
but I honestly do believe in you, which is why
I'm not going to be giving you any more money.
(34:35):
You're thirty eight, you have a job, You're grown up,
and I want to respect that. I want to respect
your autonomy, you know, instead of giving the auto advice
stuff too for people who are really identified, because I
feel like most people, if you're a loving person, you
just think that's a part of it. So instead of
immediately giving advice or having ideas or suggestions, I want
(34:57):
you to just start to raise your awareness about how
often you want to give advice, right, how often you
want to add your two cents? And instead of that,
if your friend comes to you with a problem, even
if you eventually give them your two cents. The first
thing you're going to say is Okay, before we get
(35:17):
into it, you tell me what you think you should
do because you're in a situation. Nobody's gout is better
than yours about this because it's your life and I'm
here too. You want to brainstorm it, you want to
spitball at whatever you want to do. But it's like
putting the emphasis back on them because it's the truth,
like you actually don't know what they should do. You
can share experiences you had if you want to later,
(35:40):
but I feel like it can't be the first step,
the first stop on the bus, you know what I mean,
because now we're co opting that conversation and bringing it
back to our grade a advice instead of saying, so,
how do you feel about that? And then what happened? Well,
what was that like? And then what did they say? Like,
(36:01):
there's a way to ask expansive questions, and it's the
most loving thing in the world to give people your
undivided attention.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Especially if it's not undivided attention with the purpose of
then providing advice, you know what I mean. I feel
like that's really what I'm getting from this is allow
people to show you that they're capable. I feel like
so often we listen to someone's problems and we're concocting
exactly what we think that they should do and what
(36:31):
we would do and how we can help. And have
you ever had one of those situations where someone is
just ranting, very upset, and you go to give them
advice and you can just see they just really don't
want it. They really are not interested. Actually what they
want is, as you said, for someone to listen to them.
And I'm listening to this and thinking about situations with
my friends, and I'm thinking about situations with my sisters
(36:55):
where I have just jumped in and been like, okay,
so you know, I just pay for that if you want,
you know, if you're worried about you know, my sister
was talking to me the other day and I was like, well,
if you're worried about that, like, I'll just send you
some money. What became really clear to me, and that
as well, was that we could have gone on and
talked for like another twenty minutes. But also because I
just immediately offered that solution, I actually didn't really hear
(37:17):
how she was feeling and correct my initial reaction to
just jump in and be like, oh my gosh, I
love you so much, let's fix this. What can I do?
Maybe that's why you're calling me? I think I realized.
I was like, actually, no, you're calling me just because
you wanted to be heard, not because you wanted to
be fixed in a way.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
That's so good and it's so true, and you're exactly right.
Your insights are so good because you're exactly right. This
behavior high functioning codependent behavior. It limits the intimacy that
we have in our relationships because exactly what you just
described just what we do, so how we know people
(37:57):
as we go. So if you did know what to do,
what do you think it would be? Or have you
felt like this like when we ask expensive questions, this
is when we learn about people. And another thing that
you can do that is so helpful when you want
to give advice or you're not sure someone's in pain,
and even with your sister, you can always say how
can I best support you right now? When you want
(38:23):
to give advice or you're not sure someone's in pain,
and even with your sister, you can always say, how
can I best support you right now?
Speaker 1 (38:31):
And this comes back to the cool foundation of codependency.
You're not enabling them. You're no longer enabling them to
see you as I know, the cash cow, or see
you as the one who can fix it for them
or the one who can plan for them. Like you said,
you know, it's agency. Agency is a gorgeous, gorgeous gift
(38:52):
to give someone trust, agency, faith.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
And and your own because the thing is, when we
feel overly responsible for others, our own lives, internal and
external suffer, were exhausted where you can't do it forever,
and people who do I trust me. I see women
coming into my therapy practice in their six or seventh
decade of life and they're like, listen, I checked all
(39:17):
the boxes. We have money, I'm on a bunch of boards.
The kids all went to ivy leagu schools. Is this
how I'm supposed to feel? Because wow, it's really not
that awesome and I've they just say like it's empty,
and I'm like, yeah, because nobody friggin knows you. You
literally built your whole life checking boxes that other people
(39:38):
told you. Which is the way to go, Always taking
one for the team right, always self sacrificing. No one
even knows you it is so not satisfying. It is
such a bummer. So I'm so happy that this show
is for people in their twenties because if you guys
start now, you won't be in my therapy office in
your sixties. And I can't imagine I'll still be be
(40:00):
one hundred. So I'm probably not going to be still
be a therapist in a hundred. But do you know
what I mean, Like, there's so much that you can
do now to realize what real love and real support means.
That I'll hang with you even when it's hard, and
even when you don't know, I'll stay in the fox
hole with you, even through the uncertainty that makes me
(40:22):
so uncomfortable, because I love you, Because that's what devotion is,
That's what love is. Is that I will tolerate my
discomfort to comfort you in a real way, doing something
that makes you feel comforted, not makes you feel like
a problem I just fixed.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
I think that is the most beautiful conclusion, such a
beautiful way to summarize it. And again, if you've made
it this far, you are most likely as well someone
in the twenties or maybe their thirties. I think that
one of the most beautiful things about having this platform
as well and having people like you on is that
(41:02):
I think about twenty years ago when they were not
these resources, and that's the generation that you now speak to.
And hopefully, as time goes on, we have this psycho education.
We have this level of self awareness that means that
you're not going to be fifty or sixty and wondering
why your relationships are shallow, why you feel so burnt
(41:22):
out while you feel so exhausted by your need for control.
So even if it's confronting in this moment, think about
how much time you now have ahead of you to
really rewire your brain towards trust, towards healthy dependency, and
to unloan some of those maladaptive habits that you've picked
(41:43):
up from childhood, from teenage years, from your early twenties exactly.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
And I have a super special gift for your listeners
that will help you if they're identify with this. So
I have an HFC toolkit for you. So you just
go to Terrycoll dot com forward slash HFC for high
Functioning Codependent and I'm giving you some lessons in there,
like simplify and do less It's like a video and
(42:08):
a pdf. I'm giving you a guided meditation, the power
of no Meditation, and just walking you through things that
you can do to start on this journey of recovering
from high functioning codependency. And that's obviously by the book too,
but I figured I would give you a free gift
just to get you go.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
I'm going to go check that out and please please
pre order order Terry's book. This conversation has been so enlightening.
I've already had a look through and it just looks marvelous.
There's quite honestly, nothing else like what you've written that
I've come across, nothing else that, oh, well, you created
(42:50):
this term, so a lot of people do not Yeah,
and it's it's just mind blowing to me sometimes that
you know, it's twenty twenty four and it takes some
one saying this out loud for thousands of people to
come out of the woodwork and be able to identify
themselves and understand themselves more. So. There will be a
link both to that free gift from Terry, Thank you
(43:11):
so much, and also the book in this episode description. Terry,
you have been an amazing guest, seriously mind blowing. Thank
you so much for coming on. I really loved this discussion.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm planning to
come by the way to Oh you're in Australia.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Yeah, I'm in Australia.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
Yes, yeah, So I think in twenty twenty five, I've
been doing a whole bunch of interviews and I have
this group of women who are like, please come, We're
going to do events. So anyway, I think by the
end of twenty or twenty five, I'm coming. So I'm
gonna come for you.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Oh my gosh. I will be their front row, front row.
And Australia is a beautiful place. Everyone knows. That's the
reason I haven't left. It's so cautious. They'll be like,
get a very warm reception, that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Excellent. Well, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
I appreciate you, of course, and thank you so much
for listening. If you've made it this far. As always,
if you have an episode suggestion, you want to get
in touch, you want to share your thoughts about this episode,
you can DM me at that psychology podcast. Make sure
you are following along, give us a five star review
if you, of course feel cool to do so, and
share with a friend. I've already got three friends in
(44:19):
mine who I think are going to be getting a
link to this episode in their messages. So until next time,
stay safe, stay kind, be gentle to yourself, and we
will talk very very soon,
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the podcast where we talk through some of the big
life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.
(00:25):
Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners. Wherever
you are in the world, it is so great to
have you here. Back for another episode as we, of
course break down the psychology of our twenties. Codependency is
a word that gets thrown around a lot in the
self help space, but it's also incredibly misunderstood, and a
(00:48):
lot of us don't really understand the pattern of behaviors
it describes. We also tend to believe that we would
be really good at recognizing codependency. When we see it,
we think of someone who lacks boundaries around others, who
is incredibly emotionally sometimes physically dependent on other people. But
what about those situations when codependency doesn't look like the
(01:10):
codependency that we've typically come to expect. What happens when
it looks like being the person that others always come
to when they're in trouble, always being the one to
make group plans organize travel, divvy up the check, never
having a minute for yourself or feeling very exhausted by
everyone else's emotions needs preferences. Could that also be codependency?
(01:34):
We tend to really reward and praise this kind of
self sacrificing and giving behavior, and we see it as selfless.
But are we really just trying to control a situation?
Do we just feel more secure when we are in charge.
All of this indicates something called high functioning codependency, which
is a more invisible form of codependency really common amongst overgiving,
(01:58):
over extending individuals. And I want to talk about it
today because it is a concept that has just fascinated me,
and to talk about it, I want to welcome on
the psychotherapist and the boundary expert Terry Cole, who discovered
this phenomenon and who talks about it a lot to
people worldwide. So Terry, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Oh thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I'm really really excited. Can you give a little intro
tell people who you are before we dive into my questions.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
For you today. Sure, I am a psychotherapist and a
relationship expert. I'm a boundary expert communication I have been
doing this for twenty seven years. I am the author
of a book called Boundary Boss, and I have a
new book that's coming out in October. Who actually this
drips on the eleventh, So on the fifteenth of this month,
(02:47):
called too Much a guide to break in the cycle
of high functioning codependency. So I'm really an expert in
female empowerment, Like, that's really what my dealer is. I
was a talent age negotiating contracts for supermodels and celebrities
before I became a psychotherapist. So I left this career
that nobody really understood why I was leaving that career.
(03:11):
My father was like, hello, what are you doing? You're
going to become a social Like what, Hello, why are
you doing that? And it's interesting when you have a
different career before becoming a therapist. But I was motivated
by my own experience in therapy. I just couldn't even
believe how much you could change your own life, and
that it really did not matter what cards I was dealt,
(03:34):
like that shit did not determine the hand I was
going to play in life. I decided I don't like
that hand. I don't even like the fucking game. I'm
not even playing this game. I'm making up an entirely
new game, which is what I did. But I was
able to see that possibility because of my own personal
evolution and therapy. And then even though I had this fancy,
very shiny career that everyone thought was amazing and I
(03:57):
was making a ton of cash, and I was in Hollywood,
you know, this was New York in LA I was
by coastal. It's like I had. It was fancy, but
I wasn't happy, and you just get to a point
where you can't, Like I just could no longer deny
that the only thing I cared about was the mental
health of the models. I was like, you need to
change careers, dude, because you don't even want to be
(04:19):
here anymore doing this. But I really wanted to help people,
and so I was in my early thirties when I
decided to become a psychotherapist, and I've been doing that
for twenty seven years.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
That is an incredible story, just incredible, and honestly, it
is very indicative of a calling. It's just so clear
to me when you're explaining that, it's like, oh this, yeah,
it wasn't the right fit for you, because there was
a high thing that obviously maybe your soul, your personality
was calling you to And now you've done some incredible,
(04:51):
incredible work in this space. What initially so you wrote
this incredible book on boundaries, which really I would recommend.
You're also YouTube channel, and I was reading some of
the comments on a video that you did around boundaries,
and the amount of people who are like wow, like
my eyes are suddenly opened to an entirely new reality.
I think that is the power of talking about mental health,
(05:13):
talking about psychology, embracing therapy. What drew you to codependency
in the same way that you were initially drawn into
this space?
Speaker 2 (05:25):
The reason I'll just share quickly, like why did I
come up with high functioning codependency?
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Right?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Why? What was there not enough on codependency? Well, the
answer is there wasn't and it wasn't the right stuff
for my clients. So what I saw over and over
again is that I would have I have these baller
women who are CFOs, I mean international pop star like,
you know, people who are crushing the game of life,
(05:52):
and not all and then some are stay at home
moms which are amazing too, right, and not everyone had
huge careers, but a lot did. And I use them
as an example because so much of the time people
will look at someone who's the CFO of a company
I'm making two point five million dollars a year and
be like, obviously they have it all together. And yet
when I would say to any one of those people, hey,
(06:13):
what you're describing in your relationship is a codependent pattern.
That's what I'm saying, they would immediately reject it and
be like, yeah, lady, I'm not dependent on squad. Everybody's
dependent on me. I'm making all the money, I'm making
all the moves, I'm controlling all the people. I'm managing
everything in the home, I'm managing all the kids, I'm
(06:33):
my family of origin, I'm organizing all the shit. So
they couldn't see. So I realized, Oh, my clients don't
know what codependancy is. So what happened is they were
stuck in the old school melody baby codependent. No more,
you have to be enabling an alcoholic in order to
be a codependent, and that just is not accurate. It
(06:55):
just isn't true, you know. So when I added functioning
to go dependency and explain to my clients what it is.
When you are overly invested in the feeling states, the
outcomes right, the relationships, the finances, the feelings, all of
it of the people in your life, to the detriment
of your own internal peace right. And we need that
(07:18):
caveat because it's not the same. Of course, we're all
invested in the people we love being happy. Obviously, we're
like normal nice people. When you're a high functioning codependent,
it's more than that. It's like we feel compelled to
take it on. We feel actually responsible for other people's
(07:40):
feeling states and their outcomes and at its You know,
when I added the high functioning to the definition, my clients,
all of them, without shame, raise their hands saying it's me.
I'm the problem. It's me. Not to quote Taylor, but
I will. I will put interested you know what I mean.
Though we're they felt like, yeah, that's true. I am overfunctioning,
(08:03):
I am overgiving. I do do more than my share.
I am doing all the emotional labor in my home.
And I am pissed because that's the thing. You could
do that for a long time. Sooner or later, that
shade is a one way take it to bitter land, Like, yeah,
there's only so long you can do it, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Absolutely, And it was interesting when I was looking into this,
where it's just how much I resonated with this concept
where you get into this mindset of being like, I'm
so I'm I'm giving so much, but you realize that
actually all that you're allowing in that process of giving,
actually you're just allowing boundaries to be crossed for the
(08:42):
sake of others, and you don't realize that actually you
are assuming that you are giving people everything for everything
for them, and that you are doing what's best for them,
but actually they would be better off if you had
stronger boundaries. They would actually be better off if you
were more able to not just say no, but to
(09:04):
have like entire systems in place in the first place,
and expectations around what they could come to you for
what you were able to do the time you needed
for yourself. And as you said, when you add that
high functioning component, I think that also reduces some of
the perhaps stigma around codependency, that codependency is only about
(09:27):
people who just want to spend a lot of time
with each other, or only about people who enable substance use.
It's actually not the case, it shows up in a
lot of vary As you said, high achieving women, high
achieving individuals who are perhaps using codependency as a way
to stay secure and stay in control of other people's
(09:50):
feelings and therefore their own feelings. So what are some
of the typical indicators. If you were talking to a
therapy client and you said to them, well, you know,
I think that functioning cardependency is something that you might
relate to. What would you describe to them? What kind
of individual would you describe to them?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Well? I think yes, I would describe to them, which
I would describe to you, the traits, and then we
would hit the behaviors, and then we would hit the costs,
and then we could hit what you can do about it? Right,
how we can change it? So let's do it in
that order, shall we?
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yes? Please?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Traits, feeling responsible for fixing other people's problems, giving till
it hurts, right, going above and beyond, even when you're
not asked to, And a lot of times, a lot
of the shit I was doing my twenties, nobody was asking,
and I still felt underappreciated for it. I always ready
to jump into damage control mode, like at the ready
for any crisis. We are the friend that you want
(10:46):
to be in the foxhole with because we're good in
a crisis. A kind of being a little judge of
others because deep down we really kind of think we
know what they should be doing, or a little bit
like if Betty had just listened to me and broken
up with that idiot six months ago, she wouldn't be
crying right now. We can get a little self righteous,
getting frustrated and angry when other people don't take our
(11:08):
grade a advice, feeling exhausted, resemful, bitter, burnt out. So
those are traits behaviors well, auto advice giving, just giving
unsolicited advice to any and all who will listen, being
overly self sacrificing. Again, as you just kind of described,
(11:32):
like doing all the things for other people, auto accommodating.
So I want to talk about this concept that I
also originated because it was something that I suffered from.
I was like, I cannot be the only person where
this is happening. So it was a Saturday. I was
in my salon in New York City and it was
super busy, and I normally don't go on Saturday because
its like a zoo in there, but I had to go.
(11:53):
And I'm sitting there and as busy as hell, and
I'm laying in a sink. I've got my hair mask
on my hair, and now the sink traffic is started
to back up, and every time another person is standing
there with a towel around their head, waiting or whatever,
I'm getting more and more anxious because here I am
taking up a sink, but like nobody's doing anything to me, right,
I'm just sitting here. I could be sitting somewhere else
with letting this masks it. So anyway, I call over
(12:17):
the assistant and say, hey, I could move, you know,
And of course she's looking at me like, no shit, lady,
I know you could move, but I don't need you
to because I do this every Saturday. I mean, she
was nice, she was like, we're good, okay. And I
had this realization. I was like, this is how you
are everywhere toir. You're so dialed into your external environment
(12:38):
it feels like you are responsible for right. I felt
responsible for the sink flow for no good reason, seeing
as how I was a customer as well. And I
actually just this is only five years ago, and I
actually put it on I put it on YouTube, right.
I just did it like a quickly video and it
(13:00):
went totally viral and people were just like, oh my god,
that is me. So auto accommodating is when you basically
see a need in your environment and you just want
to jump in and vix it. You just want to
jump in and help you just you know. And again
a lot of people will say to me online, I mean,
I'm just being nice, Like what's wrong with being nice?
(13:21):
And I'm like, here's the thing. If you can't not
do it, you're not being nice. It is a compulsion.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Oh wow, A bit of a truth bumb that.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Right, Which is why the way that I walk you
through it in the book and the way I walk
you through it in my community is that we get
into recovery from high functioning codependency, but we don't get
cured because this is a discipline. To change these behaviors
takes time. You know. Other behaviors are anticipatory planning. You
(13:54):
know you're going to be with people. I tell a
story in the book about my friend who is dating
this person. It was just such a just such a jerk.
I hated this person. But anyway, but we were going
away so that her partner was coming, and I this
was someone who just kicked up my codependancy hardcore because
they were so difficult and then they torture my friend
and it just was like a nightmare being with them.
(14:16):
But anyway, I would make sure that we're you know,
if there were different rooms to stay, and that they
stayed in the nicest room so that he didn't complain.
And I would make sure that whatever he drank, we
would have that booze that Like, there was all these
things and I realized later, I was like, why just
don't go away with them? You don't like this guy? Like,
but that's what anticipatory plan is. You might do it
(14:37):
with family, right, two people who don't like each other.
You're like, well, I won't set them near each other.
Instead of that's very HFC to try to we're manipulating
and we're like puppet mastering what's happening, as opposed to
having a conversation with the family members saying, hey, if
you two can't figure it out, neither one of you
rore invited to Christmas? Right, Like why not you know,
(14:57):
talking true, just having a straight conversation. But as an HFC.
Usually we don't do that. We're all good girls, we're
all you know, we all want to be nice. We
don't want people to think that we're not nice. Other
behaviors is just overfunctioning, and the overfunctioning and underfunctioning dynamic
is super common with hfc's where I say that I
(15:19):
could take in my twenties, I could take a perfectly
capable boyfriend and turn him into an underfunction in two
weeks or less.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah, in the sense that you could take on all
of his responsibilities. You could plan the dates, you could
plan his life, what laundering he needs to be doing,
when he needs to call his mom, whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yes, maybe not down to that minutia, but ye, like was,
there wasn't room for them. Because the mantras of HFCs
are like I got it is one major mantra. We
just can't stop being like I got it good, to
talk good, I got it right, because we are so
capable though so a lot of times we do got it.
(15:59):
But just because you ken doesn't mean you should all
the time, you know, or another mantra is it has
to be me. It's like this belief that other people
won't do it as well, won't do it the way
we want it done, won't do it in a timely fashion,
so it's just easier to do it myself. Is a
(16:20):
lot of what we're saying in our minds. So what
is the cost of all this? Do you want to
talk about that?
Speaker 1 (16:28):
I want to talk about that, but firstly I want
to just quickly ask this question because before we get
into the cost, I really want to know what's at
the root of this because I'm listening to you talk
about this and a few things have come out for me.
The first one is maybe an element of perfectionism. Like
you said, there is a sense that the only way
that you can fully control an outcome is if you
are beside every single behavior, action, everything that led you
(16:52):
leads you to the place, Or the only way to
control whether Christmas is going to go well is if
you carefully curate the seating plan, you make sure everyone happy.
So maybe it's perfectionism. Then I'm thinking maybe it's control.
But then also like an element of people pleasing, right,
I like what you said before around is it really
kindness or is it a compulsion? Look, are you actually
(17:16):
at your core a nice person? Or can you just
not fathom the idea of people not liking you or
things not happening in the way that makes you feel
safe and secure. So what is really at the root
of this? Is it a combination of these three things
or is there another ingredient that maybe I'm missing as
well well.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I think you are very astute because those ingredients, I mean,
the foundation of all codependency, but especially high functioning codependency
is control. It is an overt or covert bid to
control other people's outcomes. We just don't want our friend
marrying the stupid idiot. We don't. We want to do
(17:53):
everything we can to help our see the light. We
don't want our partner getting fired, so we will you know, not,
we will make more money and let them flounder, like
you know what I mean, Like there's we will overfunction
to protect other people from feeling bad. Of course, ultimately
it makes them feel worse, so it doesn't really work
(18:16):
in that way. So yes, over and underfunctioning. Yes, perfectionism,
but control is such a big part of it, and
because it has such a negative connotation, people don't want
to identify with it. But that is absolutely what it is.
We could, you know, you could call it whatever the
hell you want to call it, but that that is
what it is. We want to control other people's outcomes.
But in the process of being so driven unconsciously, so
(18:39):
much of this is unconscious. It's like there's so much
self abandonment that goes on because we just want peace
as agypcies, we just don't We just want there to
be peace in the valley. We just want everyone to
be happy, right, we just don't want problems, and so
that kind of piece like we won't say anything. You know,
(19:01):
what's her name, sheral Ridchardson has a great quote that
it's like, you know, not speaking up to keep the
peace or of war within ourselves.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
That is spot on, spot on. I've got another question
for that, actually, sure, because you're staying control and I
feel like this is my own personal therapy session, right
because control is my my big problem. Yes, is there
have you found that there is an overlap or maybe
(19:34):
a correlation between people with high functioning codependency and those
of us who are eldest daughters or people who are
the eldest sibling who have perhaps been socialized in conditioned
to take on all this responsibility the same way that
maybe a mother would or maybe someone in charge of
the family would have you found that there is an overlap,
(20:00):
maybe a correlation between people with high functioning coredependency and
those of us who are eldest daughters.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Ye, without a doubt, a lot of eldest daughter syndrome,
but also a lot of good girl syndrome. Yeah, so
in any any place that you are in the family system,
because if you think about family systems, right, there's all
these different roles that people play, and everyone was from
some kind of a disordered family system. I mean who wasn't.
(20:28):
So if my family system, my father was a high
functioning alcoholic, so you know, had a great job, a
great career, retired at fifty like I mean, you know,
did well, but it doesn't change. You know, how he
managed his emotions was with alcohol, and you know, we
were raised to be good girls and the focus when
(20:50):
you have there are different ways that the family systems are.
In a family system where there is addiction of any kind,
most people in the family system are organizing around that person.
So in a healthy family system, it is child focused.
I don't mean child obsessed, I just mean child focused,
where the activities are around what the children need. In
(21:13):
a more dysfunctional system, the activities are around it. Could
be a designated patient, right, it could be someone with
mental health, could be someone who's physically unwell, could be
an abuser that people organize around. But you learn how
to go along to get along. Nobody needs to send
you like a note when you're seven to figure out
how to avoid being rejected, how to avoid being abused,
(21:38):
like you immediately know it intuitively, how to be helpful,
how to go make mommy's next drink, even if mommy
is an alcoholic, because you're a part of the solution
and you don't want her to be mad or to
judge you, or to reject you. So a lot of
times those things make a difference too. I grew up
(21:58):
as the hero child family system. So that's the one
where everyone can agree that that person is amazing, no
matter what else is going on. But so you sort
of have it on your shoulders to like make the
family look good. Right, Yes, everyone can agree that you're good,
you're a winner, you know what I mean. But none
(22:19):
of these roles are free. So all of the family systems,
whether you're the scapegoat, whether you're you know what I mean,
all those roles play a part, but I find that
a lot of hfc's are eldest daughters or first generation,
or their parents were first generation. You know, there's a
lot of that too, because there's so much culture. I mean,
(22:42):
how do we have a downloaded HFC blueprint all of
us do, which is basically your relational blueprint. And this
is made up of what you learned in your family
of origin, the country you grew up in, the culture,
the society, your role in the family system. All of
these things sort of coalesce come together, and this makes
(23:04):
up the unconscious material that is in your mind that
tells you this is the way I should relate in
the world, whether it's with the people at church, whether
it's with my partner, whether it's with my friends, whether
it's with my cousins, whatever, right we have how it
should be type of thing. And part of this process,
I'm getting healthier and I walk people through it in
(23:25):
Boundary Boss, and we also walk through it in too Much,
in different with different lenses, right, because in too Much
we're really looking at what did you learn about the
way you're supposed to relate to other people in specific situations?
And the world though, because with hfc's it's different than
sort of regular codependency because we can get we can
(23:48):
become codependent with people we don't even freaking know barely,
like because we're concerned about others, we can sort of
get codependent with our environment and people we meet list
I did, and I see this in my clients as well.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Oh I'm just listening to you talk about this, but
you can see me just nodding my head, being like yeah,
tick tick tick. And it's interesting what you said around
it being almost wide and to our subconscious or unconscious,
especially as children, but also coming to us almost as
a blueprint. We all have this capacity, and of course
(24:25):
the blueprint that we all have as children comes from
a place of survival. That's why we are born to
be particularly accommodating to the needs of a caregiver or
a parent, because we are reliant on them. It's why
we are born to born in being able to chameleon,
being able to please others. It's all survival. So is
(24:46):
that also where high functioning codependency comes from is at
some point you've learnt a pattern of behavior that's made
life easier for you by allowing you to be more
in control. Is that also something that you see a
lot do.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
And the thing is it's in a way, it's an
illusion of control, but it does make sense. And along
the same lines, if we're talking about childhood, you might
have a lot of people being parentified in childhood. So
there's two different ways of being parentified. One is emotional.
If you have a parent who talked to you like
you were a grown up, told you things about themselves
(25:21):
that wasn't appropriate, or shared adult burdens with you about
we don't have the money to pay the lights or whatever.
You know, that's one way. It's almost like the emotional parentification.
And then there's the actual parentification of the physical where
you might be making dinner for younger siblings, you might
(25:42):
be expected to clean the house. You might like anyone
who is parentified, and if you had addicted parents or
alcoholic parents or parents with mental health challenges, you might
have been like the only sort of adult in the
room even though you were ten. So what does this do?
What does it create? It creates high functioning codependency and
(26:05):
the abilities like imagine if you're cooking dinner at nine,
you're capable as hell. Imagine how capable you are by
nineteen twenty nine thirty nine. It's like there's not anything
you can't figure out. And when you have a childhood
like that, right, it makes you very, very committed to
(26:30):
figuring it out because the alternative is feeling out of control,
is feeling victimized, is being victimized. But a lot of
those things that were adaptive in childhood become maladaptive in adulthood,
so we have to revisit them and go, does this
make sense? Should I be doing all of these things
(26:50):
for all of these people? Is this in my highest
and best drist? Do I have the bandwidth to do
this rather than being on autopilot?
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yeah? I think this is a great transition into talking
about the cost, because you really introduced this to us.
So what does this cost us individually but also in
terms of our relationships as well. When we think we
might be helping someone, we think we might be this loving,
giving person. I have a feeling that you're going to
tell us that maybe that isn't always the most beneficial thing.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Yeah, that's true, because here's the thing. I'll tell you
a quick story and I share it in the book,
But this is what actually changed my life when it
comes to codependency and high function codependency. In my twenties,
one of my sisters was in a bad situation with
someone who was doing a crack addict and she was
(27:44):
an active alcoholic and they were living in a house
in the woods with no running water and no electricity,
and he was abusive. So, I mean, for an HFC,
it's like a five alarm fire every day, and I
was obsessed with how am I going to save her
from this? To hell? You know, like, what am I
going to do? So I was crying to my therapist
and bowing my eyes out and saying, you know, Bev,
(28:06):
I've done everything. What am I going to do? And
she said, Terry, let me ask you something. What makes
you think you know what your sister needs to learn
in this lifetime and how she needs to learn it.
But do you know what's happening for you and all this?
And I was like, obviously no, I do not, Please
clue me in. And she said, Terry, you've worked really
hard to create a harmonious life. Your sister's dumpster fire
(28:30):
is really messing with your piece. You want your pain,
you want to you want that to be fixed because
ultimately you want your pain to end. She is not wrong. Yeah,
that is true.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yeah, and so do you think it was an element
of like in your attempts to soothe yourself and to
not to say eliminate, but to fix this like stress
up for you, Because of course, when it comes to
very close relationships, you feel it someone else pain, especially
as a sibling, especially as someone in your family, there
(29:03):
is a bond there that is incredibly otherworldly. Do you
think that actually the relationship you have with your sister
deteriorated or did it get to a point of her
not listening to you? Because I've had this before with
people where and I've learnt this with friends where it's
like you can't tell someone to just break up with
their boyfriend or break up with their girlfriend or their partner,
(29:25):
because all that's going to happen is they'll just stop
telling you the bad stuff. So you're actually not helping them,
and you're in your attempts to fix it, like you're
actually further isolating them. What ended up happening with her
in that situation, if you want to share, of course.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah, no, I do. I've wrote about it in the book,
so I've already shared it so noble. I said to
my therapist, so what do I do then? Like, what
are my options now? And she said, Terry, you need
boundaries because I remember it was my twenties and I
was the boundaryless wonder. So I had no boundaries. And
I didn't even know I could have boundaries with my sister.
(30:03):
I had no idea. I was like, what I could
be a good sister and do that. She said, listen,
you don't have to let her talk to you about
this guy, but you can be there if she needs you.
So I talked to my sister. I said, hey, I
can't talk about this with you. It's so painful and
disruptive for my life, but I love you and when
and if you ever really want to get out, I'll
always be your person. I'll always be your person. And
(30:25):
she really understood. She was like, you know what, I
get it okay. And we talked a few times in
nine months, and then she called me and said I'm ready.
Are you still my person? And I was like, oh, yes,
I am, got in my car, went and picked her up.
And the most important aspect of this story is that
by doing that, my sister was ready to change what
(30:49):
wasn't working in her life instead of her youngest sister
being the hero in her story, which is what we're
doing when we insert ourselves, when we can't stop telling
people what to do, we're literally centering ourselves in that
person's problem. It's so God, that was the hardest thing
for me to like wrap my own mind around. I
was like, oh, is that what I'm doing. That's terrible.
(31:12):
But she ended up finally coming to it, she got sober,
she got back to school. My husband and I helped
her in an appropriate way. But she is the hero
of her own story. It's not about me, It's about her.
And I loved her enough to tolerate the way that
felt right, because that's what love is. Love is an
auto fixing other people. Love is being like, I'll be
(31:33):
in the fox hole with you, even when you're suffering,
and even when I think you could end your suffering
by ending this relationship. But she wasn't ready, just because
I was ready for her to do it, and it stuck.
She never went back with him, She never got into
another relationship like that. And that was This is decades ago.
You know, she's gone on to have a career. It's
like she did that herself. And we rob people of
(31:58):
their sovereignty when and their dignity when we're endlessly thinking
we know what they should be doing, so what can
we do instead?
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Right?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
The cost to us is great to burn out health, bitterness,
living life light is what I call it. When we're
constantly obsessed and you know, in our minds about other
people and other things, we're not fully present in our
own life, and life hits different when you're kind of
only half here. It's like half as juicy as it
(32:29):
should be, half as amazing as it should.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Love that one.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yeah, I do.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
It's so true. And we're not fully self expressed because
we're not focusing on us, we're focusing on others, And
then we have the cost to the other people their
autonomy right, not accepting them where they are. People become projects.
Nobody likes that. They do not like it, and I
hate it when I feel like someone thinks I'm I'm
a project. I want to punch them. I'm like, hey man,
(32:55):
look at my life. Does it seem like I need
your advice? I don't. Please stop giving it to me.
It's very dehumanizing, which is not what we're trying to do,
so what can we do instead? And when you guys
were listening, we're like, okay, great, thank you, I'm identified
Now what can I do? Well, let's hope that you've
raised your awareness through this conversation that we're having. You
(33:16):
need to take a look at your boundaries. And when
we're HFC is a lot of times we're the ones
trampling on other people's boundaries inadvertently we're not meaning to.
But when you give someone advice who hasn't asked you
for advice, when you just transfer money into someone's account
because you're worried they're not going to make their rent, right.
I had a client who was paying rent for like
(33:38):
thirty eight year olds on or whatever it was. Oh,
I was like, you know, She's like, well, just in
case he doesn't have enough, And I'm like, this is
what I think is happening. Here's the subtext of that.
Your son who's mismanaging is money comes to you and says,
I don't think I can do it. I don't think
(33:58):
i'm going to make it. I don't know how to
do that. I think I'm a loser. You giving him
money monthly? What are you saying I agree with you.
I agree. I think you're a loser too. I don't
think you're going to do it either. Wow.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
And did she stop doing it?
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yes? But the thing is she changed it. I was like,
the conversation isn't about cutting him off. The conversation is
about believing in him. I have faith that you are resourceful,
and I know that you're going to figure this out.
And I don't think i've been helping you. And I'm sorry,
but I honestly do believe in you, which is why
I'm not going to be giving you any more money.
(34:35):
You're thirty eight, you have a job, You're grown up,
and I want to respect that. I want to respect
your autonomy, you know, instead of giving the auto advice
stuff too for people who are really identified, because I
feel like most people, if you're a loving person, you
just think that's a part of it. So instead of
immediately giving advice or having ideas or suggestions, I want
(34:57):
you to just start to raise your awareness about how
often you want to give advice, right, how often you
want to add your two cents? And instead of that,
if your friend comes to you with a problem, even
if you eventually give them your two cents. The first
thing you're going to say is Okay, before we get
(35:17):
into it, you tell me what you think you should
do because you're in a situation. Nobody's gout is better
than yours about this because it's your life and I'm
here too. You want to brainstorm it, you want to
spitball at whatever you want to do. But it's like
putting the emphasis back on them because it's the truth,
like you actually don't know what they should do. You
can share experiences you had if you want to later,
(35:40):
but I feel like it can't be the first step,
the first stop on the bus, you know what I mean,
because now we're co opting that conversation and bringing it
back to our grade a advice instead of saying, so,
how do you feel about that? And then what happened? Well,
what was that like? And then what did they say? Like,
(36:01):
there's a way to ask expansive questions, and it's the
most loving thing in the world to give people your
undivided attention.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Especially if it's not undivided attention with the purpose of
then providing advice, you know what I mean. I feel
like that's really what I'm getting from this is allow
people to show you that they're capable. I feel like
so often we listen to someone's problems and we're concocting
exactly what we think that they should do and what
(36:31):
we would do and how we can help. And have
you ever had one of those situations where someone is
just ranting, very upset, and you go to give them
advice and you can just see they just really don't
want it. They really are not interested. Actually what they
want is, as you said, for someone to listen to them.
And I'm listening to this and thinking about situations with
my friends, and I'm thinking about situations with my sisters
(36:55):
where I have just jumped in and been like, okay,
so you know, I just pay for that if you want,
you know, if you're worried about you know, my sister
was talking to me the other day and I was like, well,
if you're worried about that, like, I'll just send you
some money. What became really clear to me, and that
as well, was that we could have gone on and
talked for like another twenty minutes. But also because I
just immediately offered that solution, I actually didn't really hear
(37:17):
how she was feeling and correct my initial reaction to
just jump in and be like, oh my gosh, I
love you so much, let's fix this. What can I do?
Maybe that's why you're calling me? I think I realized.
I was like, actually, no, you're calling me just because
you wanted to be heard, not because you wanted to
be fixed in a way.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
That's so good and it's so true, and you're exactly right.
Your insights are so good because you're exactly right. This
behavior high functioning codependent behavior. It limits the intimacy that
we have in our relationships because exactly what you just
described just what we do, so how we know people
(37:57):
as we go. So if you did know what to do,
what do you think it would be? Or have you
felt like this like when we ask expensive questions, this
is when we learn about people. And another thing that
you can do that is so helpful when you want
to give advice or you're not sure someone's in pain,
and even with your sister, you can always say how
can I best support you right now? When you want
(38:23):
to give advice or you're not sure someone's in pain,
and even with your sister, you can always say, how
can I best support you right now?
Speaker 1 (38:31):
And this comes back to the cool foundation of codependency.
You're not enabling them. You're no longer enabling them to
see you as I know, the cash cow, or see
you as the one who can fix it for them
or the one who can plan for them. Like you said,
you know, it's agency. Agency is a gorgeous, gorgeous gift
(38:52):
to give someone trust, agency, faith.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
And and your own because the thing is, when we
feel overly responsible for others, our own lives, internal and
external suffer, were exhausted where you can't do it forever,
and people who do I trust me. I see women
coming into my therapy practice in their six or seventh
decade of life and they're like, listen, I checked all
(39:17):
the boxes. We have money, I'm on a bunch of boards.
The kids all went to ivy leagu schools. Is this
how I'm supposed to feel? Because wow, it's really not
that awesome and I've they just say like it's empty,
and I'm like, yeah, because nobody friggin knows you. You
literally built your whole life checking boxes that other people
(39:38):
told you. Which is the way to go, Always taking
one for the team right, always self sacrificing. No one
even knows you it is so not satisfying. It is
such a bummer. So I'm so happy that this show
is for people in their twenties because if you guys
start now, you won't be in my therapy office in
your sixties. And I can't imagine I'll still be be
(40:00):
one hundred. So I'm probably not going to be still
be a therapist in a hundred. But do you know
what I mean, Like, there's so much that you can
do now to realize what real love and real support means.
That I'll hang with you even when it's hard, and
even when you don't know, I'll stay in the fox
hole with you, even through the uncertainty that makes me
(40:22):
so uncomfortable, because I love you, Because that's what devotion is,
That's what love is. Is that I will tolerate my
discomfort to comfort you in a real way, doing something
that makes you feel comforted, not makes you feel like
a problem I just fixed.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
I think that is the most beautiful conclusion, such a
beautiful way to summarize it. And again, if you've made
it this far, you are most likely as well someone
in the twenties or maybe their thirties. I think that
one of the most beautiful things about having this platform
as well and having people like you on is that
(41:02):
I think about twenty years ago when they were not
these resources, and that's the generation that you now speak to.
And hopefully, as time goes on, we have this psycho education.
We have this level of self awareness that means that
you're not going to be fifty or sixty and wondering
why your relationships are shallow, why you feel so burnt
(41:22):
out while you feel so exhausted by your need for control.
So even if it's confronting in this moment, think about
how much time you now have ahead of you to
really rewire your brain towards trust, towards healthy dependency, and
to unloan some of those maladaptive habits that you've picked
(41:43):
up from childhood, from teenage years, from your early twenties exactly.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
And I have a super special gift for your listeners
that will help you if they're identify with this. So
I have an HFC toolkit for you. So you just
go to Terrycoll dot com forward slash HFC for high
Functioning Codependent and I'm giving you some lessons in there,
like simplify and do less It's like a video and
(42:08):
a pdf. I'm giving you a guided meditation, the power
of no Meditation, and just walking you through things that
you can do to start on this journey of recovering
from high functioning codependency. And that's obviously by the book too,
but I figured I would give you a free gift
just to get you go.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
I'm going to go check that out and please please
pre order order Terry's book. This conversation has been so enlightening.
I've already had a look through and it just looks marvelous.
There's quite honestly, nothing else like what you've written that
I've come across, nothing else that, oh, well, you created
(42:50):
this term, so a lot of people do not Yeah,
and it's it's just mind blowing to me sometimes that
you know, it's twenty twenty four and it takes some
one saying this out loud for thousands of people to
come out of the woodwork and be able to identify
themselves and understand themselves more. So. There will be a
link both to that free gift from Terry, Thank you
(43:11):
so much, and also the book in this episode description. Terry,
you have been an amazing guest, seriously mind blowing. Thank
you so much for coming on. I really loved this discussion.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm planning to
come by the way to Oh you're in Australia.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Yeah, I'm in Australia.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
Yes, yeah, So I think in twenty twenty five, I've
been doing a whole bunch of interviews and I have
this group of women who are like, please come, We're
going to do events. So anyway, I think by the
end of twenty or twenty five, I'm coming. So I'm
gonna come for you.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Oh my gosh. I will be their front row, front row.
And Australia is a beautiful place. Everyone knows. That's the
reason I haven't left. It's so cautious. They'll be like,
get a very warm reception, that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Excellent. Well, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
I appreciate you, of course, and thank you so much
for listening. If you've made it this far. As always,
if you have an episode suggestion, you want to get
in touch, you want to share your thoughts about this episode,
you can DM me at that psychology podcast. Make sure
you are following along, give us a five star review
if you, of course feel cool to do so, and
share with a friend. I've already got three friends in
(44:19):
mine who I think are going to be getting a
link to this episode in their messages. So until next time,
stay safe, stay kind, be gentle to yourself, and we
will talk very very soon,
Host
Jemma Sbeghen
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