December 2, 2024 • 43 mins
For our very first guest of the holiday season, I invited on Dr Lisa Miller - a professor at Columbia University, author, clinical psychologist and researcher to discuss her profound work on the intersection between spirituality and mental health.
Our spiritual health is often the dimension of wellbeing we neglect the most, but in this episode we uncover why having a strong belief system, sense of purpose, oneness and path is invaluable, especially in our 20s. This includes:
- The distinction between religion and spirituality
- What brain scans say about the importance of a higher power or meaning
- 3 practices to improve your spiritual core
- Why your spiritual core is so essential in your 20s
- Why we resist spirituality and how this harms us
Dr Lisa was an incredible and inspiring guest, her book is called The Awakened Brain.
You can follow her her: @dr.lisamiller
PREORDER MY BOOK: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/755841/person-in-progress-by-jemma-sbeg/
Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg
Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast
For business: psychologyofyour20s@gmail.com
The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the podcast where we talk through some of the big
life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
mean for our psychology.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to
the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in
the world, it is so great to have you here,
back for another episode as we, of course break down
the psychology of our twenties. When we talk about health,
I think our first thought is physical health. You know,
what food we consume, what exercise we do, how our
(00:45):
body feels, what our doctor might say. Then we might
think about mental health, psychologically, emotionally, where do we sit,
social health, financial health, The list goes on. But rarely
do we prioritize our spiritual health when in fact, spiritual
health health is really linked to all these other pillars
of our well being. It might not sound as scientific
(01:06):
or real as these other dimensions of our health. I
think based on what a lot of society has taught
us over the years, but it's really valuable to have
something you believe in, especially in your twenties as you're
blooming and blossoming into this new person. You have to
have something that you have faith in, a sense of meaning,
a value system in order to have a fulfilled life.
(01:29):
And it's definitely something that I've begun prioritizing more. Even
though I'm not a religious person anymore. I think that
life is just a lot more enjoyable and our sense
of purpose is a lot more profound when you can
identify a connection between yourself and the world and what
you're here for. So I really want to talk about
this today and bring the spirituality and the science and
(01:52):
the mental health together to kind of understand how we
engaged spiritual life and a belief system is so special
in our twentyes. And of course I had to bring
on an incredible guest, doctor Lisa Miller. She is a
professor at Columbia University, at clinical psychologist and a scientist,
and she focuses on the intersection between spiritual health and
(02:13):
our wellbeing. Lisa, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I'm so happy to be here, and I just really
love the way you get right down to what truly matters.
These in her twenties, we lay the groundwork for the
rest of our lives, and you know it deserves really
being truthful and getting down to it. So thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Oh absolutely, I really appreciate that. Yet we're not missing
around you. I've kind of already given you a little introduction.
Do you want to talk more about your path to
where you are now, what you do, who you are
as a person.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Sure. So I'm a clinical scientist. I'm a professor at
Columbia University of twenty five years, and I have over
these years published probably one hundred hundred and fifty peer
review scientific articles on spirituality, who we really are spiritually
and the relationship between our own personal spirituality and our
(03:10):
bigger lives. Our health, our wellness, our recovery, our strength
and character are thriving. But I'll also share with you. You know,
when I talk about how I got here, when I
was in my twenties, I was on a spiritual hunt.
I mean I was really on a quest in my twenties,
and it was not easy. So if you really want
to know how I got here to being, you know,
(03:33):
a lifelong scientist and someone who's devoted themselves to this work,
it starts in my twenties. You know, I was nineteen
years old, twenty years old starting out, and I really
started to wonder, you know, what the purpose of life
really was. And this was no joke. You know, I'd
always been kind of a thoughtful person, but I really
(03:55):
started to wonder. It sort of was just tug from within,
and that tug became about one hundred hymns more fierce
when there was a bump in my life. And people
have different bumps, it doesn't matter it turns out what
the bump might be. But for me, my true love,
the first time I'd ever ever been in love, completely
broke my heart. I mean, so, here was this guy
(04:17):
I'd fallen in love for the first time, and I
thought he was perfect. You know, he was, in my eyes,
more handsome than a Greek sculpture. He was so interesting,
he was you know, I was mesmerized. And he said,
you know what, I really think. I'm falling in love
with you. And I said, you love me. He's like, yeah,
(04:38):
I love you. And that was after three months and
I've found the person I'm going to marry. And then yeah,
after he broke up with me, boom, five months and
I was shocked. It didn't make sense, Like I said,
but you said you love me, He's like, no, I did,
and I said, but now you don't love me, and
(04:58):
he's like, no, not now. I'm like, well you did then,
but you don't now. How can that be? He's like,
well there was a change. And I thought, well, if
you can change, you know, does love really matter? Is
love real? I mean, if you can love me, truly
love me and then truly not love me? Is love real?
And ever more like? I started to think, well, wait
(05:19):
a minute, is you know, are what is our human
condition that we can so called fall out of love?
Or is there any permanent or stability to us? You know,
what can you really bank on? Can you trust people
in life? And this sent me on a huge spiral
about what is the nature of life? What is real?
Are humans real? Is love real? And these were not
(05:41):
questions that were somehow a symptom of pathology. These were genuine,
real questions. So what do you think I did? I
went to a therapist and I went first therapist and
I said, listen, you know I have really been on
a downward spiral since John broke up with me. I
(06:02):
don't know if love's real. I don't know if we
can really count on each other. Do we just change overnight?
Are we so stable? Or real, and I really wonder,
you know, I used to really believe in God or
to higher power, whatever one's word might be, the universe,
and now I don't know how much I can really
count even on that is God real? It's the universe
in the sense of being loving and there for us
(06:24):
personally real. And the therapist looked at my story and said,
so you don't know if God's really there for you?
And I said, yeah, I don't know if God's real.
And she said, well, was your father there for you
when you were little? And I'm like, wait a minute, No,
I don't mean that my father isn't there for me.
I mean God is there. And she could only tell
(06:44):
that one story that we're nothing more than the paths
of our childhood. So you know, I thought this isn't
for me, and I went fired her, which she should do.
Should always fire a therapist if it's not right. Then
I went to a new therapist and I told the
same story, and she's said, okay, so you don't know
if God's there for you. Do you think you have
(07:05):
low self esteem? Do you think that you have sort
of negative self talk? And I said no, I'm fine
with myself. I don't know if God's real right, And
this turned out to be what I have now come
decades later to know is the most important work that
we do, which is figure out the spiritual reality and
(07:26):
who we are in this spiritual reality. Mental health didn't
know that, Psychologists, therapists didn't know that, college counselors didn't
know that. They thought that this big quest was actually
just a symptom of depression. But now we know, you know,
hundreds of pure view scientific articles later, that this is
not just you know, a sidebar of depression. This is
(07:49):
literally how we are built. We are hardwired our brain,
our genes to grow into our twenties and need to quest,
and we're even better at it in our twenties.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I'm listening to that story and just being like, wow,
can completely relate. Have seen this happen so many times,
have seen it happen in myself, and the listeners of
the show will know. A couple months ago, I went
through an incredibly similar experience where I was like, Okay,
what's the meaning of life? What happens after we die?
(08:21):
How do you go on? Knowing that it's finite? YadA
YadA YadA, and eth essential crisis and so I went
to a therapist and she asked me if I had
watched any scary movies as of Racince. So it's so funny, right,
And then they were like, oh, we'll just up your
antidepressants as a way to combat this. And I think
(08:42):
it was kind of like the first line of defense.
I accepted it. And then now I've gotten to a
place much like you have, where it's like, actually, this
is an upending question. If I don't answer it now,
I'll have to answer it eventually, I'll have to answer
it in three years time, in my thirties, in my forties,
and my mom said something to me. She was like,
this is something that you're going to continue to struggle
(09:04):
with until you have a belief system that you can
rely on, not one that any institution or a therapist
has told you.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
And you gave chills because you are so deep and
so wise. And here I am with tears in my
eyes because you knew the truth that this was a
very real, very profound it's a sacred quest, and I
am deep lived that you knew exactly what it was.
You didn't let a so called expert tell you that
(09:33):
your experience was somehow anything other than profound thank you.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
And it's hard, you know, because when you have such
a scientific and a psychological perspective, that is where you
look first. And I think people might be listening to
this being like where does God come in here? You know,
we're talking about God, We're talking about Allah. Maybe these
big figures. One of the biggest questions, and I think
conundrums people have when they think about spirituality is does
(10:00):
that mean I have to be religious? So what in
your mind is the difference between spirituality and religion? Can
you have like a non denominational quest.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
What you just shared was a deeply profound spiritual quest
that is actually hardwired in every single one of us.
So your journey reveals needing to answer the profound questions,
an existential crisis, as you put it, the very nature
of our existence. This is in our birthright. And we
(10:32):
now have a very good science of twenty years that says,
just as we're physical, emotional, cognitive beings, we are all
spiritual beings. And we even have found the circuits in
the brain using MRI studies that are the spiritual circuits.
And it turns out that every single person on earth,
(10:53):
every seven point two billion people on Earth all have
the same spiritual circuits. Spirituality is inborn, it's innate, and
we know this ever more through the lens of a
twin study. We look at twins race together and twins
raced apart, and we can determine whether any human capacity
is inborn or environmentally formed. And spirituality is innate. Religion,
(11:16):
whether we are Catholic, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Jane, whatever our
tradition may be right, religion is not inborn. Religion is
environmentally transmitted. So the texts and the ceremonies and the
teachings are a gift of the environment. But spirituality is
a deep, inborn human capacity, and because it's inborn, it
(11:40):
has natural phases of development, including the most precious phase,
which is in our twenties. We become independent spiritual beings
on our own terms, on our own inner heart. We
need to figure out what's true and not true, the
inner compass of spiritual reality, and.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
What does that feel like when you kind of come
to that point, whatever religion or non religion or agnostic
atheist environment you've been raised in, does it always look
like a spiritual crisis or does it look like an awakening?
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Well, your question is very beautiful because most people at
some point have some type of struggle or crisis, the
testing of everything they've been taught or told against the
deep knowing of their own inner part. You know, what
is the resonance. And so whether it is at twenty
two or twenty nine, you know, somewhere in the twenties,
(12:39):
there is wait a minute, everything you ever told me,
you know, pastor priest of mind, Rabbi, grandma and grandpa, mom, dad,
I need to know it as true against my own
inner compass. That's called spiritual emergence, and it is it
is a mark of entering into adulthood. It is an
incredibly is the cornerstone of adulthood. So that is absolutely
(13:05):
essential to emerging as our own person in the world.
But you're also raising another equally beautiful and important point,
which is sometimes, you know, in addition to that, someone
who's been on a quest, someone who struggled, or someone
who will someday struggle, also may have moments of extraordinary awakening.
(13:26):
You know, suddenly you might have a dream, or you
could have a mystical experience or a synchronicity when two
events are way too unprobabilistic to have just happened by chance.
They go together deeply, and that type of spiritual experience
in the world is a gift, that is a way
of the universe who I call God, your higher power,
(13:47):
the force of life, saying you are never alone, you
are guided, you are loved, and you are held And.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
It's so beautiful. The way that you talk about it
is like it doesn't need to be in a box.
There is no one right answer for what is real.
It's what calls you to see a higher purpose and
a higher meaning whatever that comes to you as And
it's a highly individual experience, which I think is what
(14:16):
sometimes can frustrate people. It's like, well, I just want
to know the answer. I just want to know what's
real and what is the one truth. And I think
the thing about spirituality is it's not about having the
one answer. It's about having the structure and the belief system,
the same way you believe in so many other things.
You believe that you are alive, you believe that you
(14:36):
have a purpose, you believe that you are capable of
being loved. It's like you believe that there is something more.
What have you seen in your studies when people aren't
able to find that belief, or perhaps they continue to
suppress their need for something more.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
You put it so beautifully, because spirituality is not a theory, right,
It is our ability to perceive into the deeper nature
of life. Its spirituality is a seat of awareness. And
so what you're describing is really it's almost like a
(15:15):
sacred operating manual. How do I look into the world?
What is my stance? And that is a deeply personal
journey to arrive into our own dialogue with the universe.
And I can share with you that when we do
that work, we are profoundly protected against addiction, against depression,
(15:40):
against some forms even of harm or suicide. There's nothing
more protective against this real sort of global epidemic of
the diseases of despair in twenty year olds. Nothing is
more profoundly protective as our deep spiritual seat of awareness.
So again, it may or may not be through one's
religion that one finds that with that deep personal sense
(16:03):
of quest to have our bearings in life? What is
life showing me? Now? What is my higher power asking
or revealing to me? Now? What does that synchronicity mean?
Was that a sacred dream. Was that a mystical experience,
and knowing our spiritual experience to be true, that is real.
Know it's true, take it as extremely important, reflect on it,
(16:28):
and then act on it. So there's no way of
knowing that is as strong and sure and helps us
along as much as our spiritual way. I mean, actually,
could we do a brief ninety second practice where people
have a chance to engage their spiritual weariness?
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Absolutely, we love anything practical on the show.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Please beautiful, okay, beautiful. So I'm going to invite you to,
just as a ninety second practice, clear out your inner space,
close your eyes, an invitation if you wish to close
your eyes and take five big beautiful breaths to open
up your inner chamber. And in your inner chamber, I
(17:17):
invite you to set before you at table. This is
your table. Into your table. You may invite anyone living
or deceased who truly has your best interest in mind.
Anyone living or deceased too, truly has your best interest
(17:40):
in mind, And with them all sitting there, ask them
if they love you. And now you may invite your
higher self, the part of you that is so much
more than anything you might have done or not done
anything that you might have or not have your true
eternal higher self, and ask you if you love you.
(18:04):
And now finally you may invite your higher power, however
you know, whatever word is yours, your higher power, and
ask if they love you. And now, with all of
those people sitting there right now, what do they need
to tell you? Now? What do you need to know?
(18:25):
What do they need to share right now? I?
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Wow, I feel very tingling. It's quite a beautiful exercise.
Have you seen people like come out of that and
just be like I have a complete new truth, Like
I completely have rethought how I think about myself.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
I've seen people deeply moved and awaken because they realize, yes,
you are spiritual. This is you. You are spiritual, and
no one can ever take this away from you.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Wow, it was so interesting when you were thinking about
the table. I also feel like I was thinking about
this big family dinner table and it wasn't just people,
but it was like pets as well. I don't know
why I was like, oh yeah, and there's my childhood
dog and there's my current dog, and they're you know,
sitting at this table. I don't know why. I was
just like, oh, of course, people.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
I want to say, so I feel that way about
my dog. I love my dog, and I feel there
we're all souls, that our dogs are souls, and we're
here together.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
I know. It's interesting how like that thought exercise gives
you a new perspective on what to you, like constitutes
a soul and what to constitutes love and how that's reflected.
It's a beautiful exercise.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
So at my table, it's not always the same people
every time, right. And what's nice about this practice is
that we can bring to counsel. This is your counsel, right,
what is on our heart at any given moment. So
if someone is really you know, I felt very unkind
to me, or is not it was, or has betrayed
(20:00):
me or working against me, I can bring that experience
and even that person in my mind to counsel.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
So for example, if you're even if you've got some
huge decision, perhaps after a breakup, or you're you know,
at a crossroads in terms of your career, or some
tragedy has happened, it is almost like you've got this
perfect panel of everyone who represents love and joy and
care and empathy to you, who you can ask in
(20:30):
your own mind without actually needing them. There is that
kind of the premise as.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Well, Yes, beautifully put exactly there. This panel is always
there for you. Oh yeah, and who shows up may
change that you can answer them what is on your heart.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
And that's like one exercise I think that gets us
in touch with a sense of spirituality, even if you
don't think you have it, even if you know you
have strange feelings about it that you've been conditioned to think.
How else do we really begin to build out our
spiritual core in a similar way. I feel like that's
a great exercise for being like, Okay, I've recognized that
(21:11):
at my core I do have a deep belief and
a deep intrinsic sense of being present, being here, being loved.
How do we make sure that carries with us in
other parts of our life and begin to build like
those pillars of what do I believe in?
Speaker 3 (21:28):
So that's a very beautiful question because we can have
a moment of breakthrough. It can be through a practice
like we just shared here the Hosting Council, or it
could come spontaneously. We could be on a hike and
see the sun on the lake and it's just so
breathtakingly beautiful that we feel a sense of oneness, we
(21:48):
feel a presence of God or the higher power of
the universe. You know, we can have moments of awakening.
But the question is how to really integrate spirituality into
our our lives, how to really build what you were
talking about earlier, which is a sacred operating manual, a
way of being in the world and understanding of how
(22:08):
to engage day in and day out with the sacred
presence or the universe. And that journey is again, it
doesn't happen in two days. It's really developed in our
twenties if we give it the care and the love
and the attention and the time. But we're never ever
as good at it as we are in our twenties.
(22:28):
So you have a gift right now. You are better
in your twenties than in your forties, fifties, or sixties
at being basically spiritual seekers. Knowing in the heart what
is true, knowing what's fake in hypocrisy, hungering for what
is genuine and transcendent, and not wanting something that is
(22:51):
unworthy or shallow. You are built to be exquisite spiritual seekers,
So there's no time like our twenties. We're as good
as building this deep stance in living, which means, you know,
we can't control things in life, and the world's getting
more complex. We can't control the environment, we can't control
who takes office all this, but we certainly can control
(23:14):
a deep stance of spiritual quest. What is life showing
me now? What is life revealing to me now? Not
why is this happening to me? But why is this
happening for me? Start with the premise that your life
is an incredible spiritual adventure and everything is a porthole
(23:36):
to incredible expansion and growth. So nothing is a bummer.
Everything is going to make you more, not less, even
if it's hurt and it's not what we want. It
doesn't mean there's not bad people, and there's plenty of
bad people, but it's not It doesn't matter if we
wanted it or not wanted it. It's all part of
the spiritual path and it'll all make us deeper and
(23:57):
more profound. So nothing in your life is wasted, nothing
in your life is off the spiritual path. Everything is
going in the end to make you more, not less.
That's the first point. The second thing is people are like, Okay,
well how do I do this? And there's a lot
of people going out right now and they go and
retreats there just maybe they'll try ayahuasca, they'll have a breakthrough, okay.
(24:19):
And the question is, well, okay, there's a breakthrough, but
what am I going to do next? And we don't
want to turn around and go touch the stone two
weeks later. You can't do ayahuasca every two weeks, right,
You can't live a life that way. So how do
you integrate spiritual breakthrough? Whether it's through mystical experience or
ayahuasca or prayer, or you've meditated, or you've seen nature.
(24:40):
And there's four pieces, there's four ingredients. May I get
into it?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Absolutely? Yes? Please, yes, please.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
So the way I think of it as four p's,
there is a way to remember it a practice of transcendence,
you know, whether it's some form of breath work or
prayer or meditation or being in nature, some way of
getting back to that deep sense that you saw when
you saw light upon the ocean, when you had a
mystical dream, when you held your counsel. Practice Number two
(25:12):
is your people. So you've created here this beautiful international
community You've created people right, a place to go to
and share spiritual life so that we're not added alone.
And the freedom and the authority to use our spiritual
voice when we connect with one another. And I want
to know you in the deepest way, and I'm interested
in your spiritual voice, so our practice, our people. The
(25:35):
third is the path, and that's where you started today,
which is a way of understanding the biggest existential questions
in life. How do I walk this earth? And I
don't mean, you know, am I going to become a
teacher or a banker or an entertainer? I mean as
a soul on earth? How do I walk this earth?
And then finally, this is something you said in our
(25:59):
first two minutes. Yeah, there are purpose, my ultimate purpose
on earth. So you're practice, your people, your past, and
your purpose. That's a fully integrated spiritual life.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Wow. And even like applying that on my own on
what I've experienced quite recently. This is quite a profound
conversation because I feel like it came at a perfect time.
I think about, you know, my practice in many ways
is like making this podcast, and it's thinking quite deeply
about things which can eventually be confronting and that is
most likely what happened in my situation where it was like, huh,
(26:35):
I can no longer find like a link between all
of my experiences, and all these terrible things are happening
in the world, and people are suffering, and people are
you know, sparing, and there's just all these things. And
I've been really sitting in that like knowledge and thinking
about it a lot, and I think that the community
that came around me in that time was incredibly important.
(27:00):
I speak about it in the episode where I spoke
about this crisis. It was family. It was literally the counsel,
it was it was the panel, it was family, it
was my partner, it was my closest friends. And it
really did show me who my closest friends were as well,
which was quite interesting. And I kind of came to
this conclusion. And I remember like being in my house
(27:20):
and almost like pacing, like I would move from the
bedroom to the lounge room, to the kitchen to the loudroom,
like it was a very circular thing. And one day
I was like, I just think that maybe not the purpose,
but what was the third What was the third one?
I've just already forgotten it The path, The path yeah,
and I think mine was like, the path is just
to be love. To just be love, like that is
(27:42):
all you need to be, and that's going to come
in many forms. But the way that you walk through
life is in any single encounter with any single person
being environment, your job is to just be this like brilliant,
bright orb that people can look to and say, Okay,
well this is love and this is kindness and this
(28:03):
is warmth and the purpose of that. Obviously, right now
this feels like my purpose. The podcast is the way
that I perform and I approach the path, but maybe
in the future it's going to be something else. And
I think that also allowed me to not tie my
spirituality and my belief in life to a specific career,
to what I was doing right now, even to like
(28:23):
a specific relationship. That's why I really like that model
that you've just introduced to us, right It's like, no
matter what stage in life you're at, you can find
a way to bring meaning to what you're doing. And
maybe that is by keeping an ongoing list of what
you're being taught in the moment, keeping an ongoing list
(28:44):
of things that have felt pivotal to you, creating like
a narrative and a story throughout your life, and then
reflecting on community, reflecting on what your deep value is.
Is it love? Is it creativity? Is it generosity? I
think that is a really practical way to think about it.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
If you can envision a world where everyone does what
you just said, let's just say it was all of
gen Z. Does we mean yes, which is walk a
pass of abundant love, then you will have turned the world. You'
have done it, gen Z, I know.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
And it's just, you know, it's wild to me that
I guess. Obviously, there are so many different challenges and
thoughts on the road and real pivotal crises that are
happening to us every single day. But sometimes I do
just look at people and think, have you it's obviously
been a while since it's crossed your mind that life
(29:40):
is short. Like I see people make decisions or get
really caught up in small things, and I was like,
it's you obviously, Like haven't had a reminder as of
recent that you don't get endless time here and that
this is very sacred. And maybe that's also the benefit
of having that spiritual core as being able to make
better decisions, decisions and being able to let stress go,
(30:03):
you know, an anxiety, let it flow through. You're still
experiencing it. Sometimes it's beyond your control. But being like
this is part of the kind of the CODs that
I was done. When am I going to make of.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
This so you've just shared, I think is even more
important for people in their twenties, because well, let me
ask you. I mean, it's my impression that people in
their twenties in some ways are very gifted by birth generation.
That there's more awareness, more openness in a good sense, sensitivity, perceptiveness,
(30:39):
and that this notion that gen Z was more tuned,
more feeling is true. But because of that, it's even
more important for gen Z to build the spiritual core
and walk a path, as you've described as the path
of love, because you're going to feel things more.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
I think that you're right. I think that this generation
is also more in touch with what makes us different.
There is less need for conformity, whether that is being
accepting of different you know, sexual or gender identity, or
whatever color your skin is, or your ethnicity, or the
power of your neurodivergence, whatever it is that makes you
(31:19):
difference different. When more accepting of it, now like maybe
that is also coming into it, do you think?
Speaker 3 (31:24):
So, then we greet you with love. If I'm neurodivergent,
if I look the same or different than you, right,
greet me with love. So that's already your path of
abundant love in action. And I would say gen Z's
is for all generations on earth right now. You are
the path breakers for what I would call relational spirituality,
(31:46):
leading with love, welcoming everyone to the table. And where
I think the opportunity might be is in what you
just shared, which is in your own being to hold
deep love. Because even though gener he's so loving to
one another, you've just talked about a way where there's
also a relationship to the higher power or the universe
(32:09):
that lifts and guides you that you deserve as a
soul on earth, love and connection as well as being
a source of giving that to others.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
No, absolutely, I've got two final questions for you that
might go off the path a little bit. Good.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
I've got two final questions for you. So when I
asked people, I was like, what do you want to
know about spirituality and its intersection with mental health? And
a lot of people said, how does having a spiritual
core impact something like anxiety or depression, which we would
typically say, or like the kind of general belief system
(32:55):
right now is it's quite biological, it's quite genetic. Where
does spirituality come into managing that lived experience?
Speaker 3 (33:04):
For most of the twentieth century, you're completely right, people said, oh, well,
mental health is biologically based and spirituality is just some
airy fairy thing that has nothing to do with biology.
But there's now a very rigorous, pure reviewed science that
shows that actually built into our biology is our seat
(33:27):
of spiritual awareness. When we shared that beautiful council practice,
there were very specific circuits that we've identified in the
MRI that we're running in your brain and my brain
and in all everyone's brain at the same time. The
bonding network that lets us know we're loved and healed,
the parietal that puts in and out hard boundaries. So
(33:49):
we're distinct, but we're also part of one family of life.
When Universe a shift in our attention network so we
can receive and perceive surprising new guidance, we actually are
biologically built to have a spiritual life. That doesn't mean
that spirituality is just you know, a side effect of biology.
(34:10):
It means that body, mind and soul were one, and
there's a neurodocking station for spiritual awareness. So to back up,
knowing that it's no longer you know, it is now
outdated to your point, and I'm so glad you put
this front and center. It is outdated to say, oh,
mental illness is biological. Spirituality isn't.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
No.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Spirituality like all of their human experiences, has biological underpinnings,
a neuro seat in our brain. And when we strengthen
our spiritual awareness, we are eighty percent less likely to
become addicted. We are sixty percent more likely to recover
from bumps in our lives without becoming downward down major depression.
(34:54):
We are far more resilient, we are far more able
to connect with people. But it's not not as simple
a story as oh, there's happy people who are spiritual
and never get depressed, and then there's unhappy people who
just aren't as spiritual. That's not the story. It's actually
a deeper story, which is in our twenties. As I
started sharing with you today, when John broke up with me.
(35:18):
There are times of unbelievable pain, but they are not
necessarily medical depression. They're not necessarily psychopathology. Very often these
are developmental depression. It's the knock at the door to
ask bigger questions, the existential questions that you opened with.
(35:41):
What is my purpose? What is the meaning in my life?
What am I supposed to do with my life? Can
I trust human beings? And do I trust in love?
Even if I'm not necessarily loved back? How do I
want to be in this world? And that process that
is built into our genes is a process of existential search.
(36:03):
When we hit our early twenties, our capacity for spirituality grows.
We can love even more, we can probe even more deeply.
We can see into the deep, sacred, transcendent nature of life,
in nature, in one another. We have these gifts that
emerge in our twenties. But as this great gift of
(36:24):
spiritual awareness boots up, it often can feel like a
half empty glass of spirituality while it's coming online. It
can feel empty, It can feel confusing, It can feel
like how do I put my finger on this? And
many people in their twenties say, you know, when I
don't let myself think about these questions, I get even
(36:44):
more depressed. I have no choice I've got to take
this on and so I'm not against medication, but medication
alone is insufficient to address the most important work of
your entire life, which is building your spiritual core in
your twenties based on science. And it's twenty five years
a very good you know, top American Jernal Psychiatry Jerman,
(37:07):
the American Medical Association top pier of view science. Depression
is a gateway to spiritual awakening. In our early twenties,
it is, and often in our mid twenties, depression is
a knock at the door, an existential struggle to awaken
our deeper knowing, our seat of spiritual awareness. And once
we build that, the next time something goes wrong, we
(37:29):
have built and ready a spiritual response to disappointment, a
spiritual response to not knowing where I'm going, and that
literally shows up in the brain as neuro protective against
a recurrence of major depression.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
That's incredible. I love that there is this culmination of
biology and then of you know, your imaging, and then
also of this like profoundly intangible thing you know you
cannot reach, you reach and touch your spirituality. Also, we think,
but you're literally saying no if you want to look
inside your brain. If you wanted to poke around, you
(38:07):
would find these paths. You would find these neurons, these
synapses that are directly responsible for you, you know, having
a sense of being and a sense of place, like
you said, the NeuroSTAT which is just so cool. And
you know what's interesting as well is how outdated I'm
(38:28):
thinking about, like when I did my degree and when
I did like all my training, how outdated the current
like the current system and education system is because only
like maybe seven years ago, I remember sitting in a
class and being like, depression is biological and that is
purely it and there is nothing more to it. It's
(38:50):
inherited blah blah blah. And there was nothing about like experiences.
There was nothing about deep questions. There was nothing about
you know how strengthening everything else in your life and
not just social connections, not just physical health, but actually
thinking deeply and having a philosophy that might bind bad
(39:11):
experience together might help. So it's really incredible that you're
putting it out there for this next generation of you know,
a lot of psychology students listen to this show. A
lot of people who go into be counselors, and therapists
are going to have a different perspective. So I'm going
to ask you one final question. If you had to
(39:32):
give three rapid fire practices that someone could do daily
to get to that point of having an awakened brain
or building their spiritual core, what would you recommend.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
In my books The Awakened Brain, I list three practices
that we use on the Columbia University campus. There now
you're just done about thirty campuses in the United States.
One of them is hosting counsel, which we just shared
because that is your direct connection to transcendent relationship, right
your higher power, your higher self, and those who truly
(40:07):
have your best interest in mine. The other two practices
are called the Road of Life, which cultivates what you share,
which is a stance, an operating manual of how to
engage in a dialogue with the universe. And then the
third practice has to do with finding someone with whom
you can share your spiritual path, because it's wonderful if
(40:31):
you can go through whether you call it the Sanga
or the fellowship or the journey group, but that you
remember your practice, your people, you're passing your purpose. Your
people are important, and you're creating people here. So in
the Awaken Bran, I share these practices and I also
share in the Awaken bring the references to all of
these scientific articles so you can go online, pull up
(40:54):
the article and say, you know, listen, I'd like to
share today in my counseling class or with my therapist.
There's a scientific article that says spirituality is really important
in making my way through despair and depression. That when
I'm recovering from depression, I'm building the spiritual core if
I put my heart and mind and focus there. So
(41:16):
it's intended to be empowering of your own birthright, of
who you already are. There's no one who isn't spiritual.
You are spiritual. It's not if it's how in your
own journey you personally want to realize your great gift.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
What a beautiful way to finish the episode. And I
want to say this book, The Awakened Brain, is it
out right now.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
The Awakened Brain is out. It's stories and it's science
and its practices.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
And that is exactly what we talk about on this show,
Like you can't have healing and mental clarity without the
science and without the deep thoughts. So I really would
recommend going out and getting this book. I'll leave a
link to it in the description of the episode, along
with where we can find you and your Instagram, your Facebook,
(42:05):
your website, because I think that we need more of
these conversations. So thank you doctor Lisa for coming on
the show.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
Well you are a magnificent voice for spiritual journey in
this life. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Oh my gosh, what a beautiful compliment. I really appreciate that.
As always, if you enjoyed this episode, please feel free
to follow along and leave a five star review on
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now. If
you have further thoughts about this discussion, dm me on
Instagram at that Psychology Podcast. I want to have a
chat to you about it. I want to talk about
(42:40):
what you think because it was incredibly moving for me,
and if you found that to be the same for you,
please let me know. And we also take episode suggestions
over there, so if you want to follow up episode,
if you want more content like this, I also would
love your feedback. Until next time, stay safe, be kind,
and be gentle to yourself, and we will talk very soon.
Be
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the podcast where we talk through some of the big
life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
mean for our psychology.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to
the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in
the world, it is so great to have you here,
back for another episode as we, of course break down
the psychology of our twenties. When we talk about health,
I think our first thought is physical health. You know,
what food we consume, what exercise we do, how our
(00:45):
body feels, what our doctor might say. Then we might
think about mental health, psychologically, emotionally, where do we sit,
social health, financial health, The list goes on. But rarely
do we prioritize our spiritual health when in fact, spiritual
health health is really linked to all these other pillars
of our well being. It might not sound as scientific
(01:06):
or real as these other dimensions of our health. I
think based on what a lot of society has taught
us over the years, but it's really valuable to have
something you believe in, especially in your twenties as you're
blooming and blossoming into this new person. You have to
have something that you have faith in, a sense of meaning,
a value system in order to have a fulfilled life.
(01:29):
And it's definitely something that I've begun prioritizing more. Even
though I'm not a religious person anymore. I think that
life is just a lot more enjoyable and our sense
of purpose is a lot more profound when you can
identify a connection between yourself and the world and what
you're here for. So I really want to talk about
this today and bring the spirituality and the science and
(01:52):
the mental health together to kind of understand how we
engaged spiritual life and a belief system is so special
in our twentyes. And of course I had to bring
on an incredible guest, doctor Lisa Miller. She is a
professor at Columbia University, at clinical psychologist and a scientist,
and she focuses on the intersection between spiritual health and
(02:13):
our wellbeing. Lisa, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I'm so happy to be here, and I just really
love the way you get right down to what truly matters.
These in her twenties, we lay the groundwork for the
rest of our lives, and you know it deserves really
being truthful and getting down to it. So thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Oh absolutely, I really appreciate that. Yet we're not missing
around you. I've kind of already given you a little introduction.
Do you want to talk more about your path to
where you are now, what you do, who you are
as a person.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Sure. So I'm a clinical scientist. I'm a professor at
Columbia University of twenty five years, and I have over
these years published probably one hundred hundred and fifty peer
review scientific articles on spirituality, who we really are spiritually
and the relationship between our own personal spirituality and our
(03:10):
bigger lives. Our health, our wellness, our recovery, our strength
and character are thriving. But I'll also share with you. You know,
when I talk about how I got here, when I
was in my twenties, I was on a spiritual hunt.
I mean I was really on a quest in my twenties,
and it was not easy. So if you really want
to know how I got here to being, you know,
(03:33):
a lifelong scientist and someone who's devoted themselves to this work,
it starts in my twenties. You know, I was nineteen
years old, twenty years old starting out, and I really
started to wonder, you know, what the purpose of life
really was. And this was no joke. You know, I'd
always been kind of a thoughtful person, but I really
(03:55):
started to wonder. It sort of was just tug from within,
and that tug became about one hundred hymns more fierce
when there was a bump in my life. And people
have different bumps, it doesn't matter it turns out what
the bump might be. But for me, my true love,
the first time I'd ever ever been in love, completely
broke my heart. I mean, so, here was this guy
(04:17):
I'd fallen in love for the first time, and I
thought he was perfect. You know, he was, in my eyes,
more handsome than a Greek sculpture. He was so interesting,
he was you know, I was mesmerized. And he said,
you know what, I really think. I'm falling in love
with you. And I said, you love me. He's like, yeah,
(04:38):
I love you. And that was after three months and
I've found the person I'm going to marry. And then yeah,
after he broke up with me, boom, five months and
I was shocked. It didn't make sense, Like I said,
but you said you love me, He's like, no, I did,
and I said, but now you don't love me, and
(04:58):
he's like, no, not now. I'm like, well you did then,
but you don't now. How can that be? He's like,
well there was a change. And I thought, well, if
you can change, you know, does love really matter? Is
love real? I mean, if you can love me, truly
love me and then truly not love me? Is love real?
And ever more like? I started to think, well, wait
(05:19):
a minute, is you know, are what is our human
condition that we can so called fall out of love?
Or is there any permanent or stability to us? You know,
what can you really bank on? Can you trust people
in life? And this sent me on a huge spiral
about what is the nature of life? What is real?
Are humans real? Is love real? And these were not
(05:41):
questions that were somehow a symptom of pathology. These were genuine,
real questions. So what do you think I did? I
went to a therapist and I went first therapist and
I said, listen, you know I have really been on
a downward spiral since John broke up with me. I
(06:02):
don't know if love's real. I don't know if we
can really count on each other. Do we just change overnight?
Are we so stable? Or real, and I really wonder,
you know, I used to really believe in God or
to higher power, whatever one's word might be, the universe,
and now I don't know how much I can really
count even on that is God real? It's the universe
in the sense of being loving and there for us
(06:24):
personally real. And the therapist looked at my story and said,
so you don't know if God's really there for you?
And I said, yeah, I don't know if God's real.
And she said, well, was your father there for you
when you were little? And I'm like, wait a minute, No,
I don't mean that my father isn't there for me.
I mean God is there. And she could only tell
(06:44):
that one story that we're nothing more than the paths
of our childhood. So you know, I thought this isn't
for me, and I went fired her, which she should do.
Should always fire a therapist if it's not right. Then
I went to a new therapist and I told the
same story, and she's said, okay, so you don't know
if God's there for you. Do you think you have
(07:05):
low self esteem? Do you think that you have sort
of negative self talk? And I said no, I'm fine
with myself. I don't know if God's real right, And
this turned out to be what I have now come
decades later to know is the most important work that
we do, which is figure out the spiritual reality and
(07:26):
who we are in this spiritual reality. Mental health didn't
know that, Psychologists, therapists didn't know that, college counselors didn't
know that. They thought that this big quest was actually
just a symptom of depression. But now we know, you know,
hundreds of pure view scientific articles later, that this is
not just you know, a sidebar of depression. This is
(07:49):
literally how we are built. We are hardwired our brain,
our genes to grow into our twenties and need to quest,
and we're even better at it in our twenties.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I'm listening to that story and just being like, wow,
can completely relate. Have seen this happen so many times,
have seen it happen in myself, and the listeners of
the show will know. A couple months ago, I went
through an incredibly similar experience where I was like, Okay,
what's the meaning of life? What happens after we die?
(08:21):
How do you go on? Knowing that it's finite? YadA
YadA YadA, and eth essential crisis and so I went
to a therapist and she asked me if I had
watched any scary movies as of Racince. So it's so funny, right,
And then they were like, oh, we'll just up your
antidepressants as a way to combat this. And I think
(08:42):
it was kind of like the first line of defense.
I accepted it. And then now I've gotten to a
place much like you have, where it's like, actually, this
is an upending question. If I don't answer it now,
I'll have to answer it eventually, I'll have to answer
it in three years time, in my thirties, in my forties,
and my mom said something to me. She was like,
this is something that you're going to continue to struggle
(09:04):
with until you have a belief system that you can
rely on, not one that any institution or a therapist
has told you.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
And you gave chills because you are so deep and
so wise. And here I am with tears in my
eyes because you knew the truth that this was a
very real, very profound it's a sacred quest, and I
am deep lived that you knew exactly what it was.
You didn't let a so called expert tell you that
(09:33):
your experience was somehow anything other than profound thank you.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
And it's hard, you know, because when you have such
a scientific and a psychological perspective, that is where you
look first. And I think people might be listening to
this being like where does God come in here? You know,
we're talking about God, We're talking about Allah. Maybe these
big figures. One of the biggest questions, and I think
conundrums people have when they think about spirituality is does
(10:00):
that mean I have to be religious? So what in
your mind is the difference between spirituality and religion? Can
you have like a non denominational quest.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
What you just shared was a deeply profound spiritual quest
that is actually hardwired in every single one of us.
So your journey reveals needing to answer the profound questions,
an existential crisis, as you put it, the very nature
of our existence. This is in our birthright. And we
(10:32):
now have a very good science of twenty years that says,
just as we're physical, emotional, cognitive beings, we are all
spiritual beings. And we even have found the circuits in
the brain using MRI studies that are the spiritual circuits.
And it turns out that every single person on earth,
(10:53):
every seven point two billion people on Earth all have
the same spiritual circuits. Spirituality is inborn, it's innate, and
we know this ever more through the lens of a
twin study. We look at twins race together and twins
raced apart, and we can determine whether any human capacity
is inborn or environmentally formed. And spirituality is innate. Religion,
(11:16):
whether we are Catholic, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Jane, whatever our
tradition may be right, religion is not inborn. Religion is
environmentally transmitted. So the texts and the ceremonies and the
teachings are a gift of the environment. But spirituality is
a deep, inborn human capacity, and because it's inborn, it
(11:40):
has natural phases of development, including the most precious phase,
which is in our twenties. We become independent spiritual beings
on our own terms, on our own inner heart. We
need to figure out what's true and not true, the
inner compass of spiritual reality, and.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
What does that feel like when you kind of come
to that point, whatever religion or non religion or agnostic
atheist environment you've been raised in, does it always look
like a spiritual crisis or does it look like an awakening?
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Well, your question is very beautiful because most people at
some point have some type of struggle or crisis, the
testing of everything they've been taught or told against the
deep knowing of their own inner part. You know, what
is the resonance. And so whether it is at twenty
two or twenty nine, you know, somewhere in the twenties,
(12:39):
there is wait a minute, everything you ever told me,
you know, pastor priest of mind, Rabbi, grandma and grandpa, mom, dad,
I need to know it as true against my own
inner compass. That's called spiritual emergence, and it is it
is a mark of entering into adulthood. It is an
incredibly is the cornerstone of adulthood. So that is absolutely
(13:05):
essential to emerging as our own person in the world.
But you're also raising another equally beautiful and important point,
which is sometimes, you know, in addition to that, someone
who's been on a quest, someone who struggled, or someone
who will someday struggle, also may have moments of extraordinary awakening.
(13:26):
You know, suddenly you might have a dream, or you
could have a mystical experience or a synchronicity when two
events are way too unprobabilistic to have just happened by chance.
They go together deeply, and that type of spiritual experience
in the world is a gift, that is a way
of the universe who I call God, your higher power,
(13:47):
the force of life, saying you are never alone, you
are guided, you are loved, and you are held And.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
It's so beautiful. The way that you talk about it
is like it doesn't need to be in a box.
There is no one right answer for what is real.
It's what calls you to see a higher purpose and
a higher meaning whatever that comes to you as And
it's a highly individual experience, which I think is what
(14:16):
sometimes can frustrate people. It's like, well, I just want
to know the answer. I just want to know what's
real and what is the one truth. And I think
the thing about spirituality is it's not about having the
one answer. It's about having the structure and the belief system,
the same way you believe in so many other things.
You believe that you are alive, you believe that you
(14:36):
have a purpose, you believe that you are capable of
being loved. It's like you believe that there is something more.
What have you seen in your studies when people aren't
able to find that belief, or perhaps they continue to
suppress their need for something more.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
You put it so beautifully, because spirituality is not a theory, right,
It is our ability to perceive into the deeper nature
of life. Its spirituality is a seat of awareness. And
so what you're describing is really it's almost like a
(15:15):
sacred operating manual. How do I look into the world?
What is my stance? And that is a deeply personal
journey to arrive into our own dialogue with the universe.
And I can share with you that when we do
that work, we are profoundly protected against addiction, against depression,
(15:40):
against some forms even of harm or suicide. There's nothing
more protective against this real sort of global epidemic of
the diseases of despair in twenty year olds. Nothing is
more profoundly protective as our deep spiritual seat of awareness.
So again, it may or may not be through one's
religion that one finds that with that deep personal sense
(16:03):
of quest to have our bearings in life? What is
life showing me? Now? What is my higher power asking
or revealing to me? Now? What does that synchronicity mean?
Was that a sacred dream. Was that a mystical experience,
and knowing our spiritual experience to be true, that is real.
Know it's true, take it as extremely important, reflect on it,
(16:28):
and then act on it. So there's no way of
knowing that is as strong and sure and helps us
along as much as our spiritual way. I mean, actually,
could we do a brief ninety second practice where people
have a chance to engage their spiritual weariness?
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Absolutely, we love anything practical on the show.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Please beautiful, okay, beautiful. So I'm going to invite you to,
just as a ninety second practice, clear out your inner space,
close your eyes, an invitation if you wish to close
your eyes and take five big beautiful breaths to open
up your inner chamber. And in your inner chamber, I
(17:17):
invite you to set before you at table. This is
your table. Into your table. You may invite anyone living
or deceased who truly has your best interest in mind.
Anyone living or deceased too, truly has your best interest
(17:40):
in mind, And with them all sitting there, ask them
if they love you. And now you may invite your
higher self, the part of you that is so much
more than anything you might have done or not done
anything that you might have or not have your true
eternal higher self, and ask you if you love you.
(18:04):
And now finally you may invite your higher power, however
you know, whatever word is yours, your higher power, and
ask if they love you. And now, with all of
those people sitting there right now, what do they need
to tell you? Now? What do you need to know?
(18:25):
What do they need to share right now? I?
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Wow, I feel very tingling. It's quite a beautiful exercise.
Have you seen people like come out of that and
just be like I have a complete new truth, Like
I completely have rethought how I think about myself.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
I've seen people deeply moved and awaken because they realize, yes,
you are spiritual. This is you. You are spiritual, and
no one can ever take this away from you.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Wow, it was so interesting when you were thinking about
the table. I also feel like I was thinking about
this big family dinner table and it wasn't just people,
but it was like pets as well. I don't know
why I was like, oh yeah, and there's my childhood
dog and there's my current dog, and they're you know,
sitting at this table. I don't know why. I was
just like, oh, of course, people.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
I want to say, so I feel that way about
my dog. I love my dog, and I feel there
we're all souls, that our dogs are souls, and we're
here together.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
I know. It's interesting how like that thought exercise gives
you a new perspective on what to you, like constitutes
a soul and what to constitutes love and how that's reflected.
It's a beautiful exercise.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
So at my table, it's not always the same people
every time, right. And what's nice about this practice is
that we can bring to counsel. This is your counsel, right,
what is on our heart at any given moment. So
if someone is really you know, I felt very unkind
to me, or is not it was, or has betrayed
(20:00):
me or working against me, I can bring that experience
and even that person in my mind to counsel.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
So for example, if you're even if you've got some
huge decision, perhaps after a breakup, or you're you know,
at a crossroads in terms of your career, or some
tragedy has happened, it is almost like you've got this
perfect panel of everyone who represents love and joy and
care and empathy to you, who you can ask in
(20:30):
your own mind without actually needing them. There is that
kind of the premise as.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Well, Yes, beautifully put exactly there. This panel is always
there for you. Oh yeah, and who shows up may
change that you can answer them what is on your heart.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
And that's like one exercise I think that gets us
in touch with a sense of spirituality, even if you
don't think you have it, even if you know you
have strange feelings about it that you've been conditioned to think.
How else do we really begin to build out our
spiritual core in a similar way. I feel like that's
a great exercise for being like, Okay, I've recognized that
(21:11):
at my core I do have a deep belief and
a deep intrinsic sense of being present, being here, being loved.
How do we make sure that carries with us in
other parts of our life and begin to build like
those pillars of what do I believe in?
Speaker 3 (21:28):
So that's a very beautiful question because we can have
a moment of breakthrough. It can be through a practice
like we just shared here the Hosting Council, or it
could come spontaneously. We could be on a hike and
see the sun on the lake and it's just so
breathtakingly beautiful that we feel a sense of oneness, we
(21:48):
feel a presence of God or the higher power of
the universe. You know, we can have moments of awakening.
But the question is how to really integrate spirituality into
our our lives, how to really build what you were
talking about earlier, which is a sacred operating manual, a
way of being in the world and understanding of how
(22:08):
to engage day in and day out with the sacred
presence or the universe. And that journey is again, it
doesn't happen in two days. It's really developed in our
twenties if we give it the care and the love
and the attention and the time. But we're never ever
as good at it as we are in our twenties.
(22:28):
So you have a gift right now. You are better
in your twenties than in your forties, fifties, or sixties
at being basically spiritual seekers. Knowing in the heart what
is true, knowing what's fake in hypocrisy, hungering for what
is genuine and transcendent, and not wanting something that is
(22:51):
unworthy or shallow. You are built to be exquisite spiritual seekers,
So there's no time like our twenties. We're as good
as building this deep stance in living, which means, you know,
we can't control things in life, and the world's getting
more complex. We can't control the environment, we can't control
who takes office all this, but we certainly can control
(23:14):
a deep stance of spiritual quest. What is life showing
me now? What is life revealing to me now? Not
why is this happening to me? But why is this
happening for me? Start with the premise that your life
is an incredible spiritual adventure and everything is a porthole
(23:36):
to incredible expansion and growth. So nothing is a bummer.
Everything is going to make you more, not less, even
if it's hurt and it's not what we want. It
doesn't mean there's not bad people, and there's plenty of
bad people, but it's not It doesn't matter if we
wanted it or not wanted it. It's all part of
the spiritual path and it'll all make us deeper and
(23:57):
more profound. So nothing in your life is wasted, nothing
in your life is off the spiritual path. Everything is
going in the end to make you more, not less.
That's the first point. The second thing is people are like, Okay,
well how do I do this? And there's a lot
of people going out right now and they go and
retreats there just maybe they'll try ayahuasca, they'll have a breakthrough, okay.
(24:19):
And the question is, well, okay, there's a breakthrough, but
what am I going to do next? And we don't
want to turn around and go touch the stone two
weeks later. You can't do ayahuasca every two weeks, right,
You can't live a life that way. So how do
you integrate spiritual breakthrough? Whether it's through mystical experience or
ayahuasca or prayer, or you've meditated, or you've seen nature.
(24:40):
And there's four pieces, there's four ingredients. May I get
into it?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Absolutely? Yes? Please, yes, please.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
So the way I think of it as four p's,
there is a way to remember it a practice of transcendence,
you know, whether it's some form of breath work or
prayer or meditation or being in nature, some way of
getting back to that deep sense that you saw when
you saw light upon the ocean, when you had a
mystical dream, when you held your counsel. Practice Number two
(25:12):
is your people. So you've created here this beautiful international
community You've created people right, a place to go to
and share spiritual life so that we're not added alone.
And the freedom and the authority to use our spiritual
voice when we connect with one another. And I want
to know you in the deepest way, and I'm interested
in your spiritual voice, so our practice, our people. The
(25:35):
third is the path, and that's where you started today,
which is a way of understanding the biggest existential questions
in life. How do I walk this earth? And I
don't mean, you know, am I going to become a
teacher or a banker or an entertainer? I mean as
a soul on earth? How do I walk this earth?
And then finally, this is something you said in our
(25:59):
first two minutes. Yeah, there are purpose, my ultimate purpose
on earth. So you're practice, your people, your past, and
your purpose. That's a fully integrated spiritual life.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Wow. And even like applying that on my own on
what I've experienced quite recently. This is quite a profound
conversation because I feel like it came at a perfect time.
I think about, you know, my practice in many ways
is like making this podcast, and it's thinking quite deeply
about things which can eventually be confronting and that is
most likely what happened in my situation where it was like, huh,
(26:35):
I can no longer find like a link between all
of my experiences, and all these terrible things are happening
in the world, and people are suffering, and people are
you know, sparing, and there's just all these things. And
I've been really sitting in that like knowledge and thinking
about it a lot, and I think that the community
that came around me in that time was incredibly important.
(27:00):
I speak about it in the episode where I spoke
about this crisis. It was family. It was literally the counsel,
it was it was the panel, it was family, it
was my partner, it was my closest friends. And it
really did show me who my closest friends were as well,
which was quite interesting. And I kind of came to
this conclusion. And I remember like being in my house
(27:20):
and almost like pacing, like I would move from the
bedroom to the lounge room, to the kitchen to the loudroom,
like it was a very circular thing. And one day
I was like, I just think that maybe not the purpose,
but what was the third What was the third one?
I've just already forgotten it The path, The path yeah,
and I think mine was like, the path is just
to be love. To just be love, like that is
(27:42):
all you need to be, and that's going to come
in many forms. But the way that you walk through
life is in any single encounter with any single person
being environment, your job is to just be this like brilliant,
bright orb that people can look to and say, Okay,
well this is love and this is kindness and this
(28:03):
is warmth and the purpose of that. Obviously, right now
this feels like my purpose. The podcast is the way
that I perform and I approach the path, but maybe
in the future it's going to be something else. And
I think that also allowed me to not tie my
spirituality and my belief in life to a specific career,
to what I was doing right now, even to like
(28:23):
a specific relationship. That's why I really like that model
that you've just introduced to us, right It's like, no
matter what stage in life you're at, you can find
a way to bring meaning to what you're doing. And
maybe that is by keeping an ongoing list of what
you're being taught in the moment, keeping an ongoing list
(28:44):
of things that have felt pivotal to you, creating like
a narrative and a story throughout your life, and then
reflecting on community, reflecting on what your deep value is.
Is it love? Is it creativity? Is it generosity? I
think that is a really practical way to think about it.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
If you can envision a world where everyone does what
you just said, let's just say it was all of
gen Z. Does we mean yes, which is walk a
pass of abundant love, then you will have turned the world. You'
have done it, gen Z, I know.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
And it's just, you know, it's wild to me that
I guess. Obviously, there are so many different challenges and
thoughts on the road and real pivotal crises that are
happening to us every single day. But sometimes I do
just look at people and think, have you it's obviously
been a while since it's crossed your mind that life
(29:40):
is short. Like I see people make decisions or get
really caught up in small things, and I was like,
it's you obviously, Like haven't had a reminder as of
recent that you don't get endless time here and that
this is very sacred. And maybe that's also the benefit
of having that spiritual core as being able to make
better decisions, decisions and being able to let stress go,
(30:03):
you know, an anxiety, let it flow through. You're still
experiencing it. Sometimes it's beyond your control. But being like
this is part of the kind of the CODs that
I was done. When am I going to make of.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
This so you've just shared, I think is even more
important for people in their twenties, because well, let me
ask you. I mean, it's my impression that people in
their twenties in some ways are very gifted by birth generation.
That there's more awareness, more openness in a good sense, sensitivity, perceptiveness,
(30:39):
and that this notion that gen Z was more tuned,
more feeling is true. But because of that, it's even
more important for gen Z to build the spiritual core
and walk a path, as you've described as the path
of love, because you're going to feel things more.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
I think that you're right. I think that this generation
is also more in touch with what makes us different.
There is less need for conformity, whether that is being
accepting of different you know, sexual or gender identity, or
whatever color your skin is, or your ethnicity, or the
power of your neurodivergence, whatever it is that makes you
(31:19):
difference different. When more accepting of it, now like maybe
that is also coming into it, do you think?
Speaker 3 (31:24):
So, then we greet you with love. If I'm neurodivergent,
if I look the same or different than you, right,
greet me with love. So that's already your path of
abundant love in action. And I would say gen Z's
is for all generations on earth right now. You are
the path breakers for what I would call relational spirituality,
(31:46):
leading with love, welcoming everyone to the table. And where
I think the opportunity might be is in what you
just shared, which is in your own being to hold
deep love. Because even though gener he's so loving to
one another, you've just talked about a way where there's
also a relationship to the higher power or the universe
(32:09):
that lifts and guides you that you deserve as a
soul on earth, love and connection as well as being
a source of giving that to others.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
No, absolutely, I've got two final questions for you that
might go off the path a little bit. Good.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
I've got two final questions for you. So when I
asked people, I was like, what do you want to
know about spirituality and its intersection with mental health? And
a lot of people said, how does having a spiritual
core impact something like anxiety or depression, which we would
typically say, or like the kind of general belief system
(32:55):
right now is it's quite biological, it's quite genetic. Where
does spirituality come into managing that lived experience?
Speaker 3 (33:04):
For most of the twentieth century, you're completely right, people said, oh, well,
mental health is biologically based and spirituality is just some
airy fairy thing that has nothing to do with biology.
But there's now a very rigorous, pure reviewed science that
shows that actually built into our biology is our seat
(33:27):
of spiritual awareness. When we shared that beautiful council practice,
there were very specific circuits that we've identified in the
MRI that we're running in your brain and my brain
and in all everyone's brain at the same time. The
bonding network that lets us know we're loved and healed,
the parietal that puts in and out hard boundaries. So
(33:49):
we're distinct, but we're also part of one family of life.
When Universe a shift in our attention network so we
can receive and perceive surprising new guidance, we actually are
biologically built to have a spiritual life. That doesn't mean
that spirituality is just you know, a side effect of biology.
(34:10):
It means that body, mind and soul were one, and
there's a neurodocking station for spiritual awareness. So to back up,
knowing that it's no longer you know, it is now
outdated to your point, and I'm so glad you put
this front and center. It is outdated to say, oh,
mental illness is biological. Spirituality isn't.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
No.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Spirituality like all of their human experiences, has biological underpinnings,
a neuro seat in our brain. And when we strengthen
our spiritual awareness, we are eighty percent less likely to
become addicted. We are sixty percent more likely to recover
from bumps in our lives without becoming downward down major depression.
(34:54):
We are far more resilient, we are far more able
to connect with people. But it's not not as simple
a story as oh, there's happy people who are spiritual
and never get depressed, and then there's unhappy people who
just aren't as spiritual. That's not the story. It's actually
a deeper story, which is in our twenties. As I
started sharing with you today, when John broke up with me.
(35:18):
There are times of unbelievable pain, but they are not
necessarily medical depression. They're not necessarily psychopathology. Very often these
are developmental depression. It's the knock at the door to
ask bigger questions, the existential questions that you opened with.
(35:41):
What is my purpose? What is the meaning in my life?
What am I supposed to do with my life? Can
I trust human beings? And do I trust in love?
Even if I'm not necessarily loved back? How do I
want to be in this world? And that process that
is built into our genes is a process of existential search.
(36:03):
When we hit our early twenties, our capacity for spirituality grows.
We can love even more, we can probe even more deeply.
We can see into the deep, sacred, transcendent nature of life,
in nature, in one another. We have these gifts that
emerge in our twenties. But as this great gift of
(36:24):
spiritual awareness boots up, it often can feel like a
half empty glass of spirituality while it's coming online. It
can feel empty, It can feel confusing, It can feel
like how do I put my finger on this? And
many people in their twenties say, you know, when I
don't let myself think about these questions, I get even
(36:44):
more depressed. I have no choice I've got to take
this on and so I'm not against medication, but medication
alone is insufficient to address the most important work of
your entire life, which is building your spiritual core in
your twenties based on science. And it's twenty five years
a very good you know, top American Jernal Psychiatry Jerman,
(37:07):
the American Medical Association top pier of view science. Depression
is a gateway to spiritual awakening. In our early twenties,
it is, and often in our mid twenties, depression is
a knock at the door, an existential struggle to awaken
our deeper knowing, our seat of spiritual awareness. And once
we build that, the next time something goes wrong, we
(37:29):
have built and ready a spiritual response to disappointment, a
spiritual response to not knowing where I'm going, and that
literally shows up in the brain as neuro protective against
a recurrence of major depression.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
That's incredible. I love that there is this culmination of
biology and then of you know, your imaging, and then
also of this like profoundly intangible thing you know you
cannot reach, you reach and touch your spirituality. Also, we think,
but you're literally saying no if you want to look
inside your brain. If you wanted to poke around, you
(38:07):
would find these paths. You would find these neurons, these
synapses that are directly responsible for you, you know, having
a sense of being and a sense of place, like
you said, the NeuroSTAT which is just so cool. And
you know what's interesting as well is how outdated I'm
(38:28):
thinking about, like when I did my degree and when
I did like all my training, how outdated the current
like the current system and education system is because only
like maybe seven years ago, I remember sitting in a
class and being like, depression is biological and that is
purely it and there is nothing more to it. It's
(38:50):
inherited blah blah blah. And there was nothing about like experiences.
There was nothing about deep questions. There was nothing about
you know how strengthening everything else in your life and
not just social connections, not just physical health, but actually
thinking deeply and having a philosophy that might bind bad
(39:11):
experience together might help. So it's really incredible that you're
putting it out there for this next generation of you know,
a lot of psychology students listen to this show. A
lot of people who go into be counselors, and therapists
are going to have a different perspective. So I'm going
to ask you one final question. If you had to
(39:32):
give three rapid fire practices that someone could do daily
to get to that point of having an awakened brain
or building their spiritual core, what would you recommend.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
In my books The Awakened Brain, I list three practices
that we use on the Columbia University campus. There now
you're just done about thirty campuses in the United States.
One of them is hosting counsel, which we just shared
because that is your direct connection to transcendent relationship, right
your higher power, your higher self, and those who truly
(40:07):
have your best interest in mine. The other two practices
are called the Road of Life, which cultivates what you share,
which is a stance, an operating manual of how to
engage in a dialogue with the universe. And then the
third practice has to do with finding someone with whom
you can share your spiritual path, because it's wonderful if
(40:31):
you can go through whether you call it the Sanga
or the fellowship or the journey group, but that you
remember your practice, your people, you're passing your purpose. Your
people are important, and you're creating people here. So in
the Awaken Bran, I share these practices and I also
share in the Awaken bring the references to all of
these scientific articles so you can go online, pull up
(40:54):
the article and say, you know, listen, I'd like to
share today in my counseling class or with my therapist.
There's a scientific article that says spirituality is really important
in making my way through despair and depression. That when
I'm recovering from depression, I'm building the spiritual core if
I put my heart and mind and focus there. So
(41:16):
it's intended to be empowering of your own birthright, of
who you already are. There's no one who isn't spiritual.
You are spiritual. It's not if it's how in your
own journey you personally want to realize your great gift.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
What a beautiful way to finish the episode. And I
want to say this book, The Awakened Brain, is it
out right now.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
The Awakened Brain is out. It's stories and it's science
and its practices.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
And that is exactly what we talk about on this show,
Like you can't have healing and mental clarity without the
science and without the deep thoughts. So I really would
recommend going out and getting this book. I'll leave a
link to it in the description of the episode, along
with where we can find you and your Instagram, your Facebook,
(42:05):
your website, because I think that we need more of
these conversations. So thank you doctor Lisa for coming on
the show.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
Well you are a magnificent voice for spiritual journey in
this life. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Oh my gosh, what a beautiful compliment. I really appreciate that.
As always, if you enjoyed this episode, please feel free
to follow along and leave a five star review on
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now. If
you have further thoughts about this discussion, dm me on
Instagram at that Psychology Podcast. I want to have a
chat to you about it. I want to talk about
(42:40):
what you think because it was incredibly moving for me,
and if you found that to be the same for you,
please let me know. And we also take episode suggestions
over there, so if you want to follow up episode,
if you want more content like this, I also would
love your feedback. Until next time, stay safe, be kind,
and be gentle to yourself, and we will talk very soon.
Be
Host
Jemma Sbeghen
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