December 9, 2024 • 41 mins
What does it mean to experience misogyny these days? Is it the typical locker room talk and exclusion, or does it go deeper than that? In today's episode, my guest and I discuss the many dimensions of misogyny, including:
- Internalised misogyny and sexism from other women
- The psychology of the 'pick me' girl
- Dating as a feminist
- The ethics of cosmetic surgery
- How to handle misogyny in the workplace, and much more...
Hannah Ferguson is the founder of Cheek Media and the author of two best-selling books, Bite Back and Taboo. She also hosts Big Small Talk, a wonderful news podcast.
Follow Hannah here: @hannahferguson__ & @cheekmedia.co
Buy her new book here: https://www.amazon.com.au/Taboo-Conversations-never-about-relationships-ebook/dp/B0DCF8LNQK
PREORDER MY BOOK: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/755841/person-in-progress-by-jemma-sbeg/
Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg
Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast
For business: psychologyofyour20s@gmail.com
The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to
the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in
the world, it is so great to have you here
back for another episode, as we, of course break down
the psychology of our twenties on today's episode for our
twelve days of guests, I want to talk about something
that I have really wanted to speak to since the
(00:20):
day I started this podcast. I remember this very topic
being on my first ever list of topics that I
wanted to cover, and it's still been on that list
since twenty twenty one, but I knew I needed to
find the right guests to talk about it. Today, we're
finally getting to it. We're going to be tackling a
topic that runs very deep, which is sexism or misogyny
in our twenties, in our workplaces, in our friendships, in dating,
(00:44):
but also our own internalized misogyny and how to deal
with that. What are some of the psychological consequences of
experiencing misogyny during this decade? How do you put your
foot down? How do you stand up for yourself when
you don't feel like you have power? What does it
mean when other women tear each other down. Why do
we criticize each other. There's so many behaviors and beliefs
(01:07):
and systems attached to this, but at the end of
the day, it is quite a psychological experience. It's rooted
in social structures and messaging that has been ingrained in
us since a young age. And I'm really excited to
explore the psychology behind these patterns and this experience, and
also to welcome on our amazing expert guest, a friend
(01:28):
of the show, Hannah ferguson Friend of the Show. I
love that, Dah.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I am a friend of the show genuinely.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yeah. Before this we were just having like a massive,
massive chat. Then we be like, wait, we actually have
a job to do.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, and that's crazy because we're in the depths right
now of each other's personal lives. Let's snap back into
reality and get into the questions.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
I love that energy, though, I know, I know this
is like true female bonding. Like we're talking about misogyny
and there's like none of it here, so it's not
present in the room with us right now, no, I know. Also,
it's so nice to have an Australian guest on. But
I'm so privileged to be here, thank you, and we're
the same room for once. I know, I think this
never happens with the guests like you, very very rarely
(02:05):
can you tell the listeners a little bit about who
you are, what you do, if it's like a complete
wrap sheet, and how you got here.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
So I am the founder and CEO of Cheek Media Co.
Which is mainly a sort of news commentary platform for
left wing opinions through Instagram so at cheekmedia dot Co.
I'm also the co host of news and pop culture
podcast Big Small Talk. And I'm the best selling author
of bite Back and my new book Taboo has just
come out as well, and that's really about sex, dating
(02:35):
relationships and like what it means to be a woman
in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
And bite Back for those of you who have not
read that book, incredible. My mum read that book. Oh
that's really nice. I thought it for her and she
was like, this is incredible.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Ah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
And bite Back it's a book about feminism.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, it's a book about like feminism, media and politics
and how we change the systems.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yeah, which is literally the perfect segue into what we're
talking about today, which is misogyny and of course you
talk about this a lot, both on cheek but also
on a podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
In your books.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I want to really begin by focusing on misogyny from
women to women, yep, because I think that's like the
most complex issue that I wrap my head around. Is like,
you kind of expect misogyny from men at times, but
never from someone perhaps of your same gender, who understands
(03:29):
your experience. How do you think it kind of looks different?
What do we like typically expect misogyny to look like
versus what are the ways that we actually encounter it?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah, and like for people, And I think it's really
important to make the note at the start that misogyny
is the hatred of women, of femininity, of these sort
of traits that we consider and associate with women and girls.
And I think that needs to be really contrast against sexism,
which is just a singular act. So misogyny is this
deep rooted hatred, right, and when it's experienced to all ourselves,
(04:01):
when it's experienced towards other women, as women and girls,
it's called internalized misogyny because we are internalizing a system
of patriarchy that has conditioned us to see women and
girls as less than less than men, and it's anyone
who really it's it's the gender spectrum, it's people who
are not men, and how we are treated as less
(04:21):
than as inequal to men, and then how we apply
that kind of thinking that has been conditioned into us
since birth towards ourselves and other women and girls. So
it could be, and there's there's so many examples of this,
but I would say, like the beauty industry and body
image standards, the way we feel about ourselves and treat
ourselves about our bodies, that's an active internalized misogyny. The
(04:43):
way that we judge other women. And I'm not saying
just general judgment. Of course, we're going to have natural
judgment and criticism for others, but internalized misogyny is really
focusing on feminized parts of ourselves and qualities, traits, behaviors
that patriarch key shames and oppresses, those things in other
women that we critique. So maybe the way someone wears
(05:06):
their hair, the way someone does their makeup, their body,
their opinion on feminism, the way that we treat other
women in those senses is internalized misogyny coming out.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
And I really like how you pointed out that it's
almost a hatred of things that are typically female.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
So it's not like, oh, I hate their body the
way that oh, you know, I'm judging their body the
way that you can judge anyone's body. It's I'm judging
their body because they are a woman, or because of
something about them that seems feminine or seems maybe sexual.
So it's like, you know, it's a double standard. That's
the word that always is like is it the heart
(05:45):
of any conversation around this. There is one world for
women and girls, people who identify as women, and then
there is this other world for people who aren't women,
who are men.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
The standard is raised, there's a different set of criteria.
There's things that you notice every single day and apply
criticism to that you would never focus on for men.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
And it feels so weird when that's coming from another woman. Yes,
Like it's so strange when you're like, wait, I thought
we were meant to be like buddies.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, oh my god. And it's you can you can
feel it in your bones when I'm talking about it.
You know, when you go to a you know, a
lunch with your family and your grandma points out that
you've put on weight, or that you're eating too much,
or that your skirt or your hair or something ripped jeans.
Like there's so many examples of like different qualities, traits,
behaviors again that are like you would never see that
(06:30):
happen to your your brother, your cousin who's male. Like
you can see and feel the difference in the moment
about the standard women are held to.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Have you ever had any experiences of this? Like have
you ever like it's a rhetorical question the run sheet, Yeah, yeah,
Like what was your reaction though, you know, being torn
down by another woman? And obviously you have like an
online presence, right, it happens all the time. Yeah, was
it pity? Anger, or like sadness? What's the main emotional
(07:00):
action for you?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
I feel like there's obviously like a spectrum and like
a pattern of behavior as to how this runs for me.
So firstly, it's like rage and I'm offended, right, I'm
obviously hurt, I'm wounded, And at first it's this I
am being unfairly targeted and something is being pointed out
about my appearance or it feels like it's tied inherently
to my identity because that's the other thing. Women's identity
(07:23):
and appearance is so inherently linked, so so many of
these feminized characteristics feel like an attack on your personhood,
your humanity. Right, there's this rage that something so personal
is being criticized. Then it turns for me to a
particular kind of hurt. And that hurt is when men
make comments about my body. They do so because they
(07:43):
feel entitled to do that, and they've never had my
lived experience. It hurts more from women, fair or not.
It hurts more for women for me personally, because I
know that they know what it feels like, Oh my gosh, right,
and so it hurts more because you expect understanding, and
you know empathy is present, You know empathy is possible,
(08:04):
and so to have them use it and weaponize it
against you feel so deeply wounding. Then it turns to
pity for me because I realized that at some point
in their life they felt it was so shameful to
lean into these parts of themselves that they instead decided
to become and lean into masculine, patriarchal tactics and use
(08:28):
it against me. And I feel sorry for them that
that happened. It's like a full closure circle as well.
I like that you kind of finish on pity, because, like,
what is more winning than pity? I think about that
all the time. I guess my problem, though, is when
pity doesn't lead to should I challenge this?
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Yeah, that's a good point, I think. I think I
don't because I know that, especially like online, I'm like
the systems that have made you this run a lot
deeper than what I can handle on an Instagram comment,
of course, So I'm gonna be pulled in and I'm
just gonna feel worse, and people might look at that
and actually become even more angry. It's a hard It's
(09:11):
a hard job, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
It's circumstantially it depends on what you think you can
do with that certain comment. And often the only reason
I'll comment back to someone on Instagram is if I
think that my comment can employ like a certain tone
and emotion that it's not necessarily to convince the person commenting,
but for other people watching to know and learn how
to articulate how to do that. Yeah, I only ever
(09:33):
do it as like, Okay, if I'm gonna call this
person in, I need to make sure it's in a
sense and in a way that I think others could
benefit from two, not just this person.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
See, my approach is like just be so absolutely deliciously
kind to them that they then are like, oh wait,
am I the asshole here? Yeah? And I'm like, actually,
this is going to make you really reflect back hopefully. Also,
you can't go anywhere else once. I honestly think that
like kindness or or even like complete knowledge or education,
(10:02):
it just corners someone and you're like you can't hurt
me anymore, Like there's there is nothing more that you
can do. I've exited this conversation. I've left my like
sparkly Faerydale, so I've left my knowledge and I'm not
gonna respond to this anymore. Yeah, And you're so right.
I feel like when you get comments from men, I'm like,
you're gonna hate me no matter what. And one of
my friends, Violet actually, who has a bit of like
(10:25):
an online presence, I was getting like all these mean comments.
Maybe like like midway through this year, had like a
random video go viral if you remember, it was like
maybe that trans like I'm looking for a man in finance,
And the video that I posted was like I'm just
looking for a man in therapy. He can be anyone,
any size, any eyes. I just want him to be
(10:45):
self aware.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
And I did not think that that was a controversial
thing to be saying. Oh my god, did I get
ripped apart by all these men And they were like, well,
your teeth are terrible, Well you're fat, well you're this
that like, you have all all these terrible qualities. And
then it was like these women being like, yeah, get it.
And my friend Violet was like, they're gonna say that
(11:09):
to you no matter what you look like, no matter
who you are, because they have learned that to be
a woman that's an insult. They go done, like you're
already just the fact that being like anything you do
as an insult. Anything that you are, if there is
woman or female or girl before or she or her,
is offensive in their eyes.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
But what's ironic is that so many men constantly talk
about the need for men's mental health to be prioritized
and acknowledged. And yes, your video is in the like
meme viral, right, But all you were asking for was
I want men to engage in mental health practices and
to have a level of self awareness and emotional intelligence,
which is quite a low bar and expectation. Right, it's
nothing for physical appearance. It's purely psychological and well being related. Yeah,
(11:51):
and to have that turned on you is proving the
point one, but also establishing that men's standards for women
are nothing to do with our emotional health, way what
we can bring to the table in our personal lives
and all to do. And that's not to say all
men obviously, yeah, but it's to say that the response
was purely appearance based, proves how little therapy that those
people are. Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
That was one of the main comments with this guy
was like, well then why would I want you? And
I was like, you've literally just proved my point, Like
you just proved it, like in a second, that you
this is the person who needs this, like the fact
that it's not even a demand. It's like, I'm looking
for this. You don't have to be this. I'm looking
for this. This is a joke. This is like a
viral hook. And you were taking it so personally that
(12:32):
you've like insulted me. Anyhow, We've gotten completely off track.
The people that really interested me though in that comment
section was the women. Was the women who were like, God,
that's just like, why would you want such a feminine man?
Why would you want someone who like why would I
want a man in therapy? All these things? And that
kind of brings me to talking about the pick me girl,
(12:54):
because when you were explaining your kind of your cycle
of truth, when you get a hate comment from another woman,
it ends in sympathy. And I honestly feel so much
sympathy towards pick me girls, and I want to see
if you feel the same way. What does that? What
does a pick me girl look like to you? Though?
Speaker 2 (13:11):
A pick me girl sits alongside terms like cool girl
or not like other girls. There's a really fantastic additional
phrase that was coined by Australian journalist Amy Ramikis, which
is a crumb maiden. A crumb maiden being someone who
rises up within systems and uses that very system and
(13:31):
that power to oppress a group that they're part of.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Julie Bishop perfect, Sorry, just gonna ac hurt. People who
are in Australian won't know who that is.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Julie Bishop and Pauline Hanson. If you are, if you
are in Australia, if you're in Australia, have a Google. Yeah,
raisy hands. Yeah, the search goes up. But I think
that the way to think of a pick me girl,
and when we say pick me, it's this woman who
wants to be chosen by men. So this is a
woman in our minds who engages and prioritizes male attention,
(14:07):
male interests, the male gaze in order to garner attention
and approval from men to the exclusion of women, so
to distance themselves from groups of girls, to not want
to be a girl's girl in quotations, and someone who
really pursues systems of patriarchy to find themselves more privileged
than other women within that system.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
And it's honestly, very very interesting because I think once
you start noticing it, you're like, oh, sometimes I do that, Yeah, sometimes,
And I can see myself having done that when I
was younger a lot.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Well, I think that starting from a place of sympathy
towards this when you're a teenage girl, I've never met
someone who didn't engage in pickny girl behavior. Yeah, because
we've got to really step back from this and understand
that the idea of a pick me is that they
want to be chosen, they want to be loved, they
want to be seen to an extent right by men,
(14:58):
and we exist in society that teaches women from a
very young age that the worst thing they could be
a single and child free. So in that context, of course,
young girls, especially in our early teen years and as
we become adults, really lean into I need to have
a boyfriend, I need to be desirable, to be seen,
to be loved. Means in a patriarchal society for women
(15:19):
to be beautiful and enticing to men, And that takes
a lot of time to sort of dismantle, to decenter
that need, and it takes a lot of self awareness
and growth.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
You know what's really fascinating was I was talking to
one of my friends about this and she's recently come
out as lesbian, and I was bringing this up. I
was like, I'm gonna go talk to Hannah about pick
me girls, Like do you think that like this impacted
you despite you never really feeling like any kind of
sexual desire towards men. And she was like, yes, yeah,
one hundred percent. She was like, even as a teenager,
(15:52):
I did all these things because I wanted and she
had boyfriends and she wanted a boyfriend. She's like, I
had absolutely no sexual interest in them. But there was
a part of me, almost this like part of me
and my DNA, that realized that winning the favor and
the approval of men would benefit me, would be powerful
for me, would offer me like some form of protection,
you know, like if I was chosen, maybe I was
(16:14):
not going to be judged as much, maybe I would
be protected from scrutiny. So it's really fascinating to recognize
that it doesn't just come down to yeah, sex arousal
like romantic attachment. It is actually a level deeper than
that psychologically, and it has to do with power and
(16:35):
safety and security. And I never thought that I'd find
myself like sympathizing with like the pick me girls who
were like freaking fifty and sixty. But I'm like, you
were raised in an environment and in a society where
what was your other option?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
And we still, you know, we us in a society
where I have friends who have chosen to be child free.
I have lots of single friends, but we are still
kind of charting the course for the first time, because
while women have been choosing to this for a long time,
it's never been the majority. It's never been a third
it's never been.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
A quarter, it's never been visible as well as visible,
so we don't know what it looks like to have
entire friendship circles and you know, context where women are
invited to really challenge those milestones, because women have been
taught that the most valuable parts of their lives, that
their milestones.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Are things where they give up agency and independence, marriage, children,
Like when you really think about that, the things we
are most celebrated and pedestaled for are the things where
we revoke our freedom.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
And it's hard to not buy into that system because
and this isn't to say that if you want children
and if you want to be married that somehow you're
like anti feminist or whatever. It's a choice that, like
you know, you make. There are every single choice you make,
you give up something, yeap, not just to do with
what we're talking about, any choice for anything, like work.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
We're giving up time, we're giving up about you know,
that's labor, that's a lot of brain space. Like when
we think about lots of things that we're doing, it's
always making choice like that.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Buying anything, you're giving up the possibility of buying something
else with that money.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Like so it's not.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
It doesn't come from a place of judgment. But I
do think that it's very interesting to see that a
lot of them are like, oh, maybe that's not what
I want. Maybe that's not what I want. And previously,
you know, my mother, my grandmother, my ancestors were not
given that choice. And the fact that so many people
are embracing that shows that maybe there is a deeper
(18:25):
desire to not have those things at times that previously
it would have been more normalized if we'd let that
desire be more present earlier. Yes, and the people who
didn't desire it, that would have been fine as well,
Like everyone would have just been able to do with
them and the fuck they wanted whatever that choice was.
And I think that's like a really important place that
we're getting to. We're going to take a short break,
(18:47):
but when we return, we're to discuss how to unlearn
some of our own internalized misogyny, deal with misogyny in
the workplace, how to assert ourselves, how to be confident,
be outspoken, be loud, ask for what you want, all
of that and more after this short break. All right,
so we're back with Hannah, and I have another question
(19:09):
for you. Of course, because this is an interview. That's
how that works. Now that I'm gonna sit here. Yeah,
so I'm just going to monologue speaking of mylogues, when
how internal monologue is really saying, Okay, there are certain
things I need to do to be accepted in this environment,
to be picked. You know, I do want love and
I want to get married. Is that going to cost
(19:31):
me giving up certain things? Should I just not be myself?
How do we counter wrap that narrative that is very
much I think maybe like rooted in our own internalized misogyny,
the narrative that you have to be different or you
have to suppress the parts of you that are you know, female,
(19:51):
that are individual, in order to fit into like society's box.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
I had this quote a few months ago in an
interview on the Imperfect podcast We Love Them, We Love Them,
and the quote was one of the celebrities interviewed said
the more me I am, the better it goes. And
I think about that a lot in the context of
the way I choose relationships and which work opportunities to pursue,
(20:17):
because I don't want to say to anyone, stop repressing everything,
stop compromising. But like the nature of relationships is that
we're going to have conflict, We're going to have compromise,
We're going to have boundaries, We're going to have needs
and wants. When we're talking about our own internal monologue
of like being the cool girl or you know, suppressing
our femininity or performing in a certain way, we can
(20:40):
understand that beauty standards under patriarchy and the male gays
have a very specific idea of what is hot. But
the person you actually want to be with and the
person that is best for you if you choose so
choose also seek longterm relationships, partnered, monogamous, whatever that may be,
is the person that sees you as you want to
be and allow yourself to be seen. Because I think
(21:02):
that part of my issue, especially in my own personal
life of dating, was so for so long I was
so worried, especially running a feminist media company Congo Walmart,
was that every time I told a man, they'd be like, oh,
I find your success hot, but not your personality and
your values. Like I was so worried about the sort
of are they truly here for the right reasons and
(21:23):
actually align with me? And they don't have to align
with everything I think that's not what we're aiming for either.
What we're aiming for is to be so comfortable with
ourselves and what we want and who we're looking for
in our lives that we go and actually allow ourselves
to seek out that person by being honest with ourselves
about what it will take for us to be seen
and loved in the way that we want. I know
(21:46):
that I engage in a lot of bad relationships because
I performed what I thought I was supposed to do
and it never made me feel good, and.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Also just out of a need for validation at times
as well. Absolutely, we can have like all the knowledge
about misogyny, some all these things, how we're going to
treat it, how they've been conditioned to behave, and then
still you find yourself being like, but I really really
want this validation.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Of course, and things like dating apps give us so
much instant gratification right over these things that we then
feel this need to like fake appear like, we need
to fake our personalities, fake our prompts, fit in the
mainstream all of these things, right, But ultimately that is
just serving a narrative that is not going to fulfill you.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Yeah, and it's really.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Hard to come to terms with that, because what I
always say too is healthy relationships are harder. I have
found traditionally that when I have dated men and like
kind of performed what it means to be like a
heterosexual woman in twenty twenty four, I've often found it
easy because if they treat me poorly, like ghosting behaviors
or like poor conflict management, I'm like, you're the problem,
(22:50):
You're emotionally unintelligent. When I've been in feminist relationships that
really allowed me to be seen and heard, it turned
back on me my own behaviors and issues when I
was met with an emotional equal who challenge me in
the way I challenge them. So it's actually quite hard
to recognize when you're not having like the big sparks
and the chemical reactions and you're actually in a feminist
(23:12):
relationship where you're not playing into that internalized misogyny. Now
you're presented with like, oh my god, there's so much
I haven't discovered about myself while I've been kind of
suppressing and toning down and listening to that internal monologue.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
And what do they say, what's the happiest group of
people on the planet? Single women and women's single women
in the fifties.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
You're absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
And it's the women who have been like I've been there,
done that, got the T shirt. Yep, I sought the validation.
I had these relationships that you know, weren't feminist, and
I'm opting out. Yeah, I'm opting out, Like I just
I'm at the stage where I don't need that anymore.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
It's like there will be Goldberg quote like I don't
want someone in my house, like.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
I don't in my house like kind of it's so
clean normally. Yeah, it's just you, and I feel like
it's this whole thing where it's like, Okay, well I
had kids and I got married, so he did what
you expect me to. But now you're like not paying
attention to me because I've aged out of the male gaze.
So I can just chill, yeap, I can just chill
and I can just like eat whatever the fuck I want,
(24:16):
and I can look however I want, and I can
wear whatever colors and clothes. I don't have to be
attractive anymore, and I don't need to find a husband,
and I don't need to be a mother. But you're
still a mother.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
But is it then like, and this is really the question.
Is it when the women who have found themselves in
these predicaments, who have sought out relationships, long term monogamous
heterosexual relationships, got married, had the kids started to age
out of that male gaze, and then discovered like it
didn't matter no matter what effort they put in, it
didn't matter anymore. That then become that internalized misogyny megaphone.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Oh my god, do you think so like the women
who are.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Like holding on gripping the remains of that feeling.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Yeah, I think so, Yeah, And honestly got again the sympathy.
That's what I mean.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
It must be awful, it.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Must be so so hard, and especially if you are
still in the environments I'm thinking about where I grew up,
And I grew up in like Queensland in Australia, which
is like Florida, right, the Florida of Australia.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
I spent sixteiars in Queensland too.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yeah, And you grew up in like the fucking Alabama
I did.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Orange, Yeah, Orange. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
We're not going to get into it.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
No, but we both have these experiences, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
And sometimes I see people from there here and I'm
just like, oh my god, I can just see that
you're angry, and you're angry because you don't know who
you are, and you're angry because you've been buying into
this system. But you don't realize that's why you're angry,
Like you don't realize that like all of these feelings
and this like hatred that you are projecting towards primarily
younger women. And I see this with a lot of
(25:46):
older women in my like where I grew up. All
this anger that you're like projecting towards younger women's actually
not like you're not angry at them, Like you're angry
that you didn't get that. Yeah, and you were like
play by the rules because I had to. I had
to do all these things that i'd actually, you know,
innately like my deep inner like self concept did not
(26:07):
want me to do these things because it wasn't free
and it wasn't liberating. But I did them anyways, So
now you should have to. And that's where I think
it comes from.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
It is kind of this. We see this with the
feminist waves too. We see this regression almost where older
women of previous waves resent the choices we now have.
And yes, and It's interesting because all I hope for
myself is that when I become an older woman, that
I champion the next generation of women. Yeah, and the
changes they want to make, because they might be different
(26:35):
fights to mine, but they are reflective of the new
frontier of what they're seeking next. And it must be
hard to be left out of that. If you have
two choices though, you can lie down and complain or
you can get up and join them.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Yeah. You know who I think is so great at that. Like,
I'm just gonna give a shout out to my grandma,
who's like, oh my god, the truest feminists that ever
fucking lived. Like, she is just so open and curious.
And she you know, she said this to me the
other day. She's American and she had to vote in
the recent election, and she said, whenever I vote, like,
(27:09):
I choose to vote for the for the person in
who I imagine is doing it the hardest. And I think,
what how would they vote? And I vote that way?
This is exactly right. Use your vote for someone less
privileged than yourself. Yeah, And she brings out to like
her feminist principles as well. She's like, I don't understand it.
I don't know what you're doing, but like cool down
(27:29):
for that, don't care. Her big thing is like cosmetic surgery.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
That's my big thing too.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Actually yeah, and she's and that's like her big thing.
Where it's like it is the ultimate frontier of like
I think in my mind, like it's the ultimate frontier
of internalized misogyny versus like freedom of women to do
what they want. But then like, are the insecurity is
only coming from it's a whole.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Well, I think that that's what the pick me conversation
is about too, because are we just being sort of
playing into the problem by criticizing other women. But then
it comes back to this idea of what choice feminism is,
which is the idea which I disagree with, that anything
that a woman does is inherently feminist because a woman
made that decision. But it's about individualism, it's about individualism
(28:15):
versus collective action. Then too, and when we are playing
into a system that hates us, we are still feeding,
monetizing and continuing a vicious cycle. And cosmetic procedures is
another way pick me girls play into the male gaze.
And it's not everyone that gets botox or has cosmetic
privigues as a pick me. God, That's not what I'm saying,
but we do need to assess at a higher level
(28:36):
and step back from our immediate want to remove an
insecurity and think who am I doing this for?
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yeah, And I think that's act like the exact best
way to think about it is all right, this is
still your choice and it will always be your choice,
but part of the choice is like a thought process
behind it. With any choice, again, it's fact like the
thing we were talking about with like marriage or choosing
to be child free, any choice, like you give up something,
(29:04):
and interrogating the reason that you choose to do something
I think is important and I know that like previously
it was like makeup, I think we've all gotten to
the point where like no, no makeup is self expression
as well as like a asking in insecurity. And I wonder,
like where that discussion is gonna go with cosmetic surgery,
(29:25):
because I honestly don't have an opinion on it. I'm
completely stuck on the fence with it.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
I am anti cosmetic surgery, but I love having conversations
about this because I'm so willing to change your mind
on this, and I think we should all be like
that with a range of topics. But one of the
conversations I had with the follower of mine when I
was posting about this recently was she said, you actually
haven't aged yet, and so it's very easy from you
from a twenty six year old's body to say I'm
(29:50):
against engaging in and feeding into the anti aging industry,
the beauty industry, when actually you have the privilege of
youth still and you don't know how you'll feel about
your body and what that means to see it change
down the line. I thought that was a fantastic criticism
that really made me think about my argument.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Wow, I've never thought of that. I kind of got chills.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Yeah, it was amazing. I don't think I've changed my position. Yeah,
I really thought about it, and it's I'm never applying
a judgment to an individual for making the choice. I
want us as individuals to come together and critique the
system that has made us feel we need to do this.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
And the other thing that I actually saw I had
a similar conversation with someone offline and she was like, Okay,
but don't you understand like being hot makes you powerful?
So and it's true, it's like it is very very true.
So maybe it's like you accept, you embrace the evil
for the good. I did. I on the fence about it.
(30:42):
Didn't agree, now that agreed nor disagreed. Thought it was
an interesting point. She was like, Okay, if I want
to be someone who breaks the glass ceiling, and that's
the first step, right, we just want to break the ceiling,
get the hole open so all the other birdies can
fly out. That was not a metaphor the women just
you know, it was a metaphor for an a trim
(31:05):
like that Bertie is that's so funny anyhow, And she
was like, okay, so if I want to be someone
who can like walk in a room and like you know,
change policy or change change like institutions, or convince people
to donate more to a charity or this or that,
(31:27):
or support the arts, like if I'm hot, I can
do that better. And so is that like I've decided
to play into the game for the greater good. And
she made this like very interesting argument for it.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
I think it's a compelling argument, but I think it's
immediately tarnished in a way by saying that is a
woman locking the door behind her because there are other
women who do not have the same privilege or baseline.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Yeah, because we know.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
That pretty beautiful beauty exists on a spectrum. And as
much as I want, we want to say everyone's beautiful,
we know that it's still hierarchical and that Western beauty
standards mean that it's like thin white women that benefit, right, Yeah,
And so I would always say, like, of course, do
what you want to do. I do want people to
lean in if they want to wear a certain thing
and fashion and make up our art forms. The woman
(32:17):
talking about being hot and pretty privilege, Yes, that's an
argument that I think is really interesting to explore. But
are you just again locking that door and pulling up
the ladder from behind you for other women who cannot
reach that same height.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
I'm going to bring that back to her. Maybe she's
listening to this episode. I want to see what she says,
all right. I want to finish up by just talking
about something that I get asked about a lot from listeners.
Is a lot of my female listeners will be like,
I've just sided a new job, got my first big
girl job. I'm in the corporate environment, I'm in finance,
I'm in whatever. How do I asert myself in this
(32:54):
male dominated space, Like, how do I say I just
love to be here without feeling like I'm going to
be thinking about someone that messaged me recently? And I'm paraphrasing,
but she was basically like, how do I do this?
How do I stand out? How do I be myself
without feeling like I'm going to be punished for that.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
I think that there's a few elements here. First is communication,
and I would say keeping records of things. That sounds
a bit suspicious in all these things, but I think
that in corporate workplaces, I actually used to work for
a union and be like in sort of employment law
and defending people, so like a lot of my role
was protection self protection for people. What I mean by
(33:36):
this is when you want to prove what you're doing
at work and assert your worth and the role you're
playing here in this ecosystem, keep records of achievements, keep
records of well done projects and tasks, keep records of
great emails, keep records of problems you find in the workplace.
If you've asserted a policy problem, if you've asserted lacking organizations,
(33:58):
if you've asserted concerns about a particular employee, like are
you someone who's harassing you or something? Keep a written
record of what's going on is one thing. Two is
make sure you're getting paid what you're worth. There is
nothing like organizing like pay reviews six monthly, talking about metrics,
where your hierarchy work, what your dreams and visions are,
what your plan is, what you actually are interested in,
(34:21):
pursuing your passions in the workplace, and where you want
to go. I think a lot of this before we
get to the stage of like how do I assert
myself at work? Is getting really comfortable knowing what you're after.
Because when you know what you're seeking, and you have goals,
and you have a plan and an outline, and you
know what you're good at and you believe in that,
that means that when you are in the workplace, you
(34:42):
feel a lot more comfortable having tough conversations, whether it
be with other employees in conflict, whether it be with management,
in seeking reviews, performance updates, going further in the workplace.
But I think that this can be difficult because we
know there's a lot of tox workplaces around. But knowing
your rights at work, knowing what you can and can't do,
(35:05):
and knowing which boundaries you want to push, which boundaries
you want to respect, and what you want to make change.
Doing is incredibly important because I'm not going to say
to you like get in there and go and start
a fight, or you know, like get in the morning
tea and no.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
No.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
I think that we need to understand which rules are
worth breaking and why. And I think we need to
understand what we want from work because I think it's
also about putting in place boundaries like I don't go
home after six pm because I don't want to start
setting the boundary that I will do anything to stay back,
and I work much harder than others. There's this fine
balance between kind of emerging out of a girl Boss era.
(35:39):
So we don't want people killing themselves at work for
crumbs and being walked on. I want people to assert
their worth in the workplace by getting things done well,
asking the right questions, asking and expecting better for themselves,
working hard but working smart too.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Well way that I do this and I like what
you said about you know, we're exiting the boss era.
We are moving on from that. We're all about respecting
our self worth as people who aren't just machines. But
in any interaction anything where I have to as sert
a boundary, I just imagine the person that I admire
most doing that for me. So I think, like I'm
(36:17):
trying to think about, like who I would choose for
this example, for like a workplace example, had a really
amazing boss manager when I was a management consultant. Her
name was Heidi and she's just a legend. And sometimes
when I'd have to like assert myself and be like, no,
I'm going home because it's my grandma's birthday or I'm
going home because of X y Z, I would just
imagine that she was there instead being like, oh, yeah,
(36:38):
by the way, Jemy needs to leave. Yeah, And I
would just like picture that like she was right there
with me, or I would picture that I was her,
and what would she say in that circumstance, what would
she do? How would she act? I use this in
every situation.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
It reminds me of like my approach to dating last
year was be the person you want to date.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Applying it to this is like be the person you'd
want to employ. Yeah, So it doesn't mean working a
fourteen hour day. You wouldn't want that of your employee,
because we don't expect that of our employees, right. We
would want someone who turns up to work on time
or lets us know why, communicates clearly, communicates kindly, has
you know, brings their personality to work, is respectful and
(37:17):
has great conversations and does high quality work and challenges themselves.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Yeah, And that's the other thing is like work does
feel like a huge part of your personality, but it's
not your entire identity. No, And you actually can't be
someone who is a good employee who's going to get
ahead if you give everything to your workplace and leave
nothing for yourself. So I love that.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
As a self employed people too, I'm like, I need
to take my own advice.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, no, it doesn't apply to us stuff I've got dah.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
But that's the other thing I would say. And it's
to do with all of this. So often our views
are more progressive and what would be what would you
say to your friend? But not what are you not
applying to yourself in these circumstances? Something to really reflect
on too.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
I do this to my sister all the time, Like
my sister's a professional athlete, and I'm always like, no,
like stand off for yourself, like, don't let them boss
you around demand more money. And then in my situations,
I'm like, no, I don't think I've ever been out
on the podcast before, but it is how it is.
All right, we're going to wrap up. But I asked
this final question of everyone, and I just love to
hear what they have to say. What is one piece
(38:19):
of advice you would have for people in their twenties.
Doesn't have to be about what we talked about today.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
This is a bit random. I've actually never given this advice,
like in a formal way on podcasts. Is usually reserved
for my closest friends. And it might sound a bit
strange because there's so much more inspirational, pinteresty sort of
stuff that I could go for here. But in your relationships,
your close relationships, whether it be romantic friendship, whenever someone's
going through a hard conflict at work, whatever with their
(38:46):
romantic partner, I always say, what is your threshold at
the basement, And like, what I mean is how low
are you willing to go? Because what I've found over
the last few years in dating and in friendships and
things is when I get upset in a relationship I'm struggling.
Often you're being depleted one percent at a time, so
(39:06):
I think like, oh, you know, they did this last
week and they did this this week. But neither of
those things feel like an adequate amount to cause a
problem over or start a conflict. And what ends up
happening often is you end up twenty five percent depleted
and not knowing how you got there, how You're like
all of these one percent items, these tiny little things
have built up, and it feels ridiculous to bring them up,
(39:28):
but I'm not happy. And the advice I would give
is to find really clearly where your bottom line is
in your relationships, because for a lot of people it's
like cheating or like a friend like fundamentally betraying you
in some very significant way. And I think we need
to improve our boundaries and understanding of ourselves and what
(39:49):
we expect from our relationships. So instead of waiting to
find the basement, I would say to people, know where
your basement is, because it allows you a sense of
self respect and understanding, and it helps you raise conflict
and concerns earlier.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
That's fabulous advice and no one's given it before. Oh thanks,
it's a really really good one know where your basement is,
how low you go limbo a limbo job.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
I think it's because often we just find ourselves like
I can't believe I got here because it's been seven
minor or medium things. Yeah, and it's it's gone past
the basement and you don't know how you got there.
And I never want people to feel like that.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
And I'm sure people listening to this you're probably thinking
of your own example right now, Like in your brain,
you're thinking about a friendship or a relationship, or a
work instance or a nahbor whatever that you have not
done this for and now you can do it.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
So, Hannah, thank you so much for coming on the show,
Thanks for having me. I'm going to link every single
place that you can find her in the show description,
including her amazing podcast Big Small Talk and Big Talk.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
And soon to be another one another one you could
probably guess what it's called.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Yeah, leave your suggestions in the comments. And also I
would really really tell you if you liked this conversation
to follow cheek Media because it's incredible where I get
so much little tidbits of information from. As always, if
you enjoyed this episode, make sure that you give us
a five star review. Follow along, leave a comment, leave
(41:14):
some kind words. Follow us on Instagram at that Psychology
Podcast if you want to see what new episodes we
have coming out, if you want to leave a comment
or leave a suggestion, or have a discussion about what
we talked about in this episode. If you agree, if
you disagree, we still love to hear from you regardless,
and until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle
with yourself as we enter the holiday's season, and we
(41:36):
will talk very very soon.
Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to
the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in
the world, it is so great to have you here
back for another episode, as we, of course break down
the psychology of our twenties on today's episode for our
twelve days of guests, I want to talk about something
that I have really wanted to speak to since the
(00:20):
day I started this podcast. I remember this very topic
being on my first ever list of topics that I
wanted to cover, and it's still been on that list
since twenty twenty one, but I knew I needed to
find the right guests to talk about it. Today, we're
finally getting to it. We're going to be tackling a
topic that runs very deep, which is sexism or misogyny
in our twenties, in our workplaces, in our friendships, in dating,
(00:44):
but also our own internalized misogyny and how to deal
with that. What are some of the psychological consequences of
experiencing misogyny during this decade? How do you put your
foot down? How do you stand up for yourself when
you don't feel like you have power? What does it
mean when other women tear each other down. Why do
we criticize each other. There's so many behaviors and beliefs
(01:07):
and systems attached to this, but at the end of
the day, it is quite a psychological experience. It's rooted
in social structures and messaging that has been ingrained in
us since a young age. And I'm really excited to
explore the psychology behind these patterns and this experience, and
also to welcome on our amazing expert guest, a friend
(01:28):
of the show, Hannah ferguson Friend of the Show. I
love that, Dah.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I am a friend of the show genuinely.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yeah. Before this we were just having like a massive,
massive chat. Then we be like, wait, we actually have
a job to do.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, and that's crazy because we're in the depths right
now of each other's personal lives. Let's snap back into
reality and get into the questions.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
I love that energy, though, I know, I know this
is like true female bonding. Like we're talking about misogyny
and there's like none of it here, so it's not
present in the room with us right now, no, I know. Also,
it's so nice to have an Australian guest on. But
I'm so privileged to be here, thank you, and we're
the same room for once. I know, I think this
never happens with the guests like you, very very rarely
(02:05):
can you tell the listeners a little bit about who
you are, what you do, if it's like a complete
wrap sheet, and how you got here.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
So I am the founder and CEO of Cheek Media Co.
Which is mainly a sort of news commentary platform for
left wing opinions through Instagram so at cheekmedia dot Co.
I'm also the co host of news and pop culture
podcast Big Small Talk. And I'm the best selling author
of bite Back and my new book Taboo has just
come out as well, and that's really about sex, dating
(02:35):
relationships and like what it means to be a woman
in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
And bite Back for those of you who have not
read that book, incredible. My mum read that book. Oh
that's really nice. I thought it for her and she
was like, this is incredible.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Ah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
And bite Back it's a book about feminism.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, it's a book about like feminism, media and politics
and how we change the systems.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yeah, which is literally the perfect segue into what we're
talking about today, which is misogyny and of course you
talk about this a lot, both on cheek but also
on a podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
In your books.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I want to really begin by focusing on misogyny from
women to women, yep, because I think that's like the
most complex issue that I wrap my head around. Is like,
you kind of expect misogyny from men at times, but
never from someone perhaps of your same gender, who understands
(03:29):
your experience. How do you think it kind of looks different?
What do we like typically expect misogyny to look like
versus what are the ways that we actually encounter it?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah, and like for people, And I think it's really
important to make the note at the start that misogyny
is the hatred of women, of femininity, of these sort
of traits that we consider and associate with women and girls.
And I think that needs to be really contrast against sexism,
which is just a singular act. So misogyny is this
deep rooted hatred, right, and when it's experienced to all ourselves,
(04:01):
when it's experienced towards other women, as women and girls,
it's called internalized misogyny because we are internalizing a system
of patriarchy that has conditioned us to see women and
girls as less than less than men, and it's anyone
who really it's it's the gender spectrum, it's people who
are not men, and how we are treated as less
(04:21):
than as inequal to men, and then how we apply
that kind of thinking that has been conditioned into us
since birth towards ourselves and other women and girls. So
it could be, and there's there's so many examples of this,
but I would say, like the beauty industry and body
image standards, the way we feel about ourselves and treat
ourselves about our bodies, that's an active internalized misogyny. The
(04:43):
way that we judge other women. And I'm not saying
just general judgment. Of course, we're going to have natural
judgment and criticism for others, but internalized misogyny is really
focusing on feminized parts of ourselves and qualities, traits, behaviors
that patriarch key shames and oppresses, those things in other
women that we critique. So maybe the way someone wears
(05:06):
their hair, the way someone does their makeup, their body,
their opinion on feminism, the way that we treat other
women in those senses is internalized misogyny coming out.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
And I really like how you pointed out that it's
almost a hatred of things that are typically female.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
So it's not like, oh, I hate their body the
way that oh, you know, I'm judging their body the
way that you can judge anyone's body. It's I'm judging
their body because they are a woman, or because of
something about them that seems feminine or seems maybe sexual.
So it's like, you know, it's a double standard. That's
the word that always is like is it the heart
(05:45):
of any conversation around this. There is one world for
women and girls, people who identify as women, and then
there is this other world for people who aren't women,
who are men.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
The standard is raised, there's a different set of criteria.
There's things that you notice every single day and apply
criticism to that you would never focus on for men.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
And it feels so weird when that's coming from another woman. Yes,
Like it's so strange when you're like, wait, I thought
we were meant to be like buddies.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, oh my god. And it's you can you can
feel it in your bones when I'm talking about it.
You know, when you go to a you know, a
lunch with your family and your grandma points out that
you've put on weight, or that you're eating too much,
or that your skirt or your hair or something ripped jeans.
Like there's so many examples of like different qualities, traits,
behaviors again that are like you would never see that
(06:30):
happen to your your brother, your cousin who's male. Like
you can see and feel the difference in the moment
about the standard women are held to.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Have you ever had any experiences of this? Like have
you ever like it's a rhetorical question the run sheet, Yeah, yeah,
Like what was your reaction though, you know, being torn
down by another woman? And obviously you have like an
online presence, right, it happens all the time. Yeah, was
it pity? Anger, or like sadness? What's the main emotional
(07:00):
action for you?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
I feel like there's obviously like a spectrum and like
a pattern of behavior as to how this runs for me.
So firstly, it's like rage and I'm offended, right, I'm
obviously hurt, I'm wounded, And at first it's this I
am being unfairly targeted and something is being pointed out
about my appearance or it feels like it's tied inherently
to my identity because that's the other thing. Women's identity
(07:23):
and appearance is so inherently linked, so so many of
these feminized characteristics feel like an attack on your personhood,
your humanity. Right, there's this rage that something so personal
is being criticized. Then it turns for me to a
particular kind of hurt. And that hurt is when men
make comments about my body. They do so because they
(07:43):
feel entitled to do that, and they've never had my
lived experience. It hurts more from women, fair or not.
It hurts more for women for me personally, because I
know that they know what it feels like, Oh my gosh, right,
and so it hurts more because you expect understanding, and
you know empathy is present, You know empathy is possible,
(08:04):
and so to have them use it and weaponize it
against you feel so deeply wounding. Then it turns to
pity for me because I realized that at some point
in their life they felt it was so shameful to
lean into these parts of themselves that they instead decided
to become and lean into masculine, patriarchal tactics and use
(08:28):
it against me. And I feel sorry for them that
that happened. It's like a full closure circle as well.
I like that you kind of finish on pity, because, like,
what is more winning than pity? I think about that
all the time. I guess my problem, though, is when
pity doesn't lead to should I challenge this?
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Yeah, that's a good point, I think. I think I
don't because I know that, especially like online, I'm like
the systems that have made you this run a lot
deeper than what I can handle on an Instagram comment,
of course, So I'm gonna be pulled in and I'm
just gonna feel worse, and people might look at that
and actually become even more angry. It's a hard It's
(09:11):
a hard job, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
It's circumstantially it depends on what you think you can
do with that certain comment. And often the only reason
I'll comment back to someone on Instagram is if I
think that my comment can employ like a certain tone
and emotion that it's not necessarily to convince the person commenting,
but for other people watching to know and learn how
to articulate how to do that. Yeah, I only ever
(09:33):
do it as like, Okay, if I'm gonna call this
person in, I need to make sure it's in a
sense and in a way that I think others could
benefit from two, not just this person.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
See, my approach is like just be so absolutely deliciously
kind to them that they then are like, oh wait,
am I the asshole here? Yeah? And I'm like, actually,
this is going to make you really reflect back hopefully. Also,
you can't go anywhere else once. I honestly think that
like kindness or or even like complete knowledge or education,
(10:02):
it just corners someone and you're like you can't hurt
me anymore, Like there's there is nothing more that you
can do. I've exited this conversation. I've left my like
sparkly Faerydale, so I've left my knowledge and I'm not
gonna respond to this anymore. Yeah, And you're so right.
I feel like when you get comments from men, I'm like,
you're gonna hate me no matter what. And one of
my friends, Violet actually, who has a bit of like
(10:25):
an online presence, I was getting like all these mean comments.
Maybe like like midway through this year, had like a
random video go viral if you remember, it was like
maybe that trans like I'm looking for a man in finance,
And the video that I posted was like I'm just
looking for a man in therapy. He can be anyone,
any size, any eyes. I just want him to be
(10:45):
self aware.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
And I did not think that that was a controversial
thing to be saying. Oh my god, did I get
ripped apart by all these men And they were like, well,
your teeth are terrible, Well you're fat, well you're this
that like, you have all all these terrible qualities. And
then it was like these women being like, yeah, get it.
And my friend Violet was like, they're gonna say that
(11:09):
to you no matter what you look like, no matter
who you are, because they have learned that to be
a woman that's an insult. They go done, like you're
already just the fact that being like anything you do
as an insult. Anything that you are, if there is
woman or female or girl before or she or her,
is offensive in their eyes.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
But what's ironic is that so many men constantly talk
about the need for men's mental health to be prioritized
and acknowledged. And yes, your video is in the like
meme viral, right, But all you were asking for was
I want men to engage in mental health practices and
to have a level of self awareness and emotional intelligence,
which is quite a low bar and expectation. Right, it's
nothing for physical appearance. It's purely psychological and well being related. Yeah,
(11:51):
and to have that turned on you is proving the
point one, but also establishing that men's standards for women
are nothing to do with our emotional health, way what
we can bring to the table in our personal lives
and all to do. And that's not to say all
men obviously, yeah, but it's to say that the response
was purely appearance based, proves how little therapy that those
people are. Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
That was one of the main comments with this guy
was like, well then why would I want you? And
I was like, you've literally just proved my point, Like
you just proved it, like in a second, that you
this is the person who needs this, like the fact
that it's not even a demand. It's like, I'm looking
for this. You don't have to be this. I'm looking
for this. This is a joke. This is like a
viral hook. And you were taking it so personally that
(12:32):
you've like insulted me. Anyhow, We've gotten completely off track.
The people that really interested me though in that comment
section was the women. Was the women who were like, God,
that's just like, why would you want such a feminine man?
Why would you want someone who like why would I
want a man in therapy? All these things? And that
kind of brings me to talking about the pick me girl,
(12:54):
because when you were explaining your kind of your cycle
of truth, when you get a hate comment from another woman,
it ends in sympathy. And I honestly feel so much
sympathy towards pick me girls, and I want to see
if you feel the same way. What does that? What
does a pick me girl look like to you? Though?
Speaker 2 (13:11):
A pick me girl sits alongside terms like cool girl
or not like other girls. There's a really fantastic additional
phrase that was coined by Australian journalist Amy Ramikis, which
is a crumb maiden. A crumb maiden being someone who
rises up within systems and uses that very system and
(13:31):
that power to oppress a group that they're part of.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Julie Bishop perfect, Sorry, just gonna ac hurt. People who
are in Australian won't know who that is.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Julie Bishop and Pauline Hanson. If you are, if you
are in Australia, if you're in Australia, have a Google. Yeah,
raisy hands. Yeah, the search goes up. But I think
that the way to think of a pick me girl,
and when we say pick me, it's this woman who
wants to be chosen by men. So this is a
woman in our minds who engages and prioritizes male attention,
(14:07):
male interests, the male gaze in order to garner attention
and approval from men to the exclusion of women, so
to distance themselves from groups of girls, to not want
to be a girl's girl in quotations, and someone who
really pursues systems of patriarchy to find themselves more privileged
than other women within that system.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
And it's honestly, very very interesting because I think once
you start noticing it, you're like, oh, sometimes I do that, Yeah, sometimes,
And I can see myself having done that when I
was younger a lot.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Well, I think that starting from a place of sympathy
towards this when you're a teenage girl, I've never met
someone who didn't engage in pickny girl behavior. Yeah, because
we've got to really step back from this and understand
that the idea of a pick me is that they
want to be chosen, they want to be loved, they
want to be seen to an extent right by men,
(14:58):
and we exist in society that teaches women from a
very young age that the worst thing they could be
a single and child free. So in that context, of course,
young girls, especially in our early teen years and as
we become adults, really lean into I need to have
a boyfriend, I need to be desirable, to be seen,
to be loved. Means in a patriarchal society for women
(15:19):
to be beautiful and enticing to men, And that takes
a lot of time to sort of dismantle, to decenter
that need, and it takes a lot of self awareness
and growth.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
You know what's really fascinating was I was talking to
one of my friends about this and she's recently come
out as lesbian, and I was bringing this up. I
was like, I'm gonna go talk to Hannah about pick
me girls, Like do you think that like this impacted
you despite you never really feeling like any kind of
sexual desire towards men. And she was like, yes, yeah,
one hundred percent. She was like, even as a teenager,
(15:52):
I did all these things because I wanted and she
had boyfriends and she wanted a boyfriend. She's like, I
had absolutely no sexual interest in them. But there was
a part of me, almost this like part of me
and my DNA, that realized that winning the favor and
the approval of men would benefit me, would be powerful
for me, would offer me like some form of protection,
you know, like if I was chosen, maybe I was
(16:14):
not going to be judged as much, maybe I would
be protected from scrutiny. So it's really fascinating to recognize
that it doesn't just come down to yeah, sex arousal
like romantic attachment. It is actually a level deeper than
that psychologically, and it has to do with power and
(16:35):
safety and security. And I never thought that I'd find
myself like sympathizing with like the pick me girls who
were like freaking fifty and sixty. But I'm like, you
were raised in an environment and in a society where
what was your other option?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
And we still, you know, we us in a society
where I have friends who have chosen to be child free.
I have lots of single friends, but we are still
kind of charting the course for the first time, because
while women have been choosing to this for a long time,
it's never been the majority. It's never been a third
it's never been.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
A quarter, it's never been visible as well as visible,
so we don't know what it looks like to have
entire friendship circles and you know, context where women are
invited to really challenge those milestones, because women have been
taught that the most valuable parts of their lives, that
their milestones.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Are things where they give up agency and independence, marriage, children,
Like when you really think about that, the things we
are most celebrated and pedestaled for are the things where
we revoke our freedom.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
And it's hard to not buy into that system because
and this isn't to say that if you want children
and if you want to be married that somehow you're
like anti feminist or whatever. It's a choice that, like
you know, you make. There are every single choice you make,
you give up something, yeap, not just to do with
what we're talking about, any choice for anything, like work.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
We're giving up time, we're giving up about you know,
that's labor, that's a lot of brain space. Like when
we think about lots of things that we're doing, it's
always making choice like that.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Buying anything, you're giving up the possibility of buying something
else with that money.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Like so it's not.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
It doesn't come from a place of judgment. But I
do think that it's very interesting to see that a
lot of them are like, oh, maybe that's not what
I want. Maybe that's not what I want. And previously,
you know, my mother, my grandmother, my ancestors were not
given that choice. And the fact that so many people
are embracing that shows that maybe there is a deeper
(18:25):
desire to not have those things at times that previously
it would have been more normalized if we'd let that
desire be more present earlier. Yes, and the people who
didn't desire it, that would have been fine as well,
Like everyone would have just been able to do with
them and the fuck they wanted whatever that choice was.
And I think that's like a really important place that
we're getting to. We're going to take a short break,
(18:47):
but when we return, we're to discuss how to unlearn
some of our own internalized misogyny, deal with misogyny in
the workplace, how to assert ourselves, how to be confident,
be outspoken, be loud, ask for what you want, all
of that and more after this short break. All right,
so we're back with Hannah, and I have another question
(19:09):
for you. Of course, because this is an interview. That's
how that works. Now that I'm gonna sit here. Yeah,
so I'm just going to monologue speaking of mylogues, when
how internal monologue is really saying, Okay, there are certain
things I need to do to be accepted in this environment,
to be picked. You know, I do want love and
I want to get married. Is that going to cost
(19:31):
me giving up certain things? Should I just not be myself?
How do we counter wrap that narrative that is very
much I think maybe like rooted in our own internalized misogyny,
the narrative that you have to be different or you
have to suppress the parts of you that are you know, female,
(19:51):
that are individual, in order to fit into like society's box.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
I had this quote a few months ago in an
interview on the Imperfect podcast We Love Them, We Love Them,
and the quote was one of the celebrities interviewed said
the more me I am, the better it goes. And
I think about that a lot in the context of
the way I choose relationships and which work opportunities to pursue,
(20:17):
because I don't want to say to anyone, stop repressing everything,
stop compromising. But like the nature of relationships is that
we're going to have conflict, We're going to have compromise,
We're going to have boundaries, We're going to have needs
and wants. When we're talking about our own internal monologue
of like being the cool girl or you know, suppressing
our femininity or performing in a certain way, we can
(20:40):
understand that beauty standards under patriarchy and the male gays
have a very specific idea of what is hot. But
the person you actually want to be with and the
person that is best for you if you choose so
choose also seek longterm relationships, partnered, monogamous, whatever that may be,
is the person that sees you as you want to
be and allow yourself to be seen. Because I think
(21:02):
that part of my issue, especially in my own personal
life of dating, was so for so long I was
so worried, especially running a feminist media company Congo Walmart,
was that every time I told a man, they'd be like, oh,
I find your success hot, but not your personality and
your values. Like I was so worried about the sort
of are they truly here for the right reasons and
(21:23):
actually align with me? And they don't have to align
with everything I think that's not what we're aiming for either.
What we're aiming for is to be so comfortable with
ourselves and what we want and who we're looking for
in our lives that we go and actually allow ourselves
to seek out that person by being honest with ourselves
about what it will take for us to be seen
and loved in the way that we want. I know
(21:46):
that I engage in a lot of bad relationships because
I performed what I thought I was supposed to do
and it never made me feel good, and.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Also just out of a need for validation at times
as well. Absolutely, we can have like all the knowledge
about misogyny, some all these things, how we're going to
treat it, how they've been conditioned to behave, and then
still you find yourself being like, but I really really
want this validation.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Of course, and things like dating apps give us so
much instant gratification right over these things that we then
feel this need to like fake appear like, we need
to fake our personalities, fake our prompts, fit in the
mainstream all of these things, right, But ultimately that is
just serving a narrative that is not going to fulfill you.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Yeah, and it's really.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Hard to come to terms with that, because what I
always say too is healthy relationships are harder. I have
found traditionally that when I have dated men and like
kind of performed what it means to be like a
heterosexual woman in twenty twenty four, I've often found it
easy because if they treat me poorly, like ghosting behaviors
or like poor conflict management, I'm like, you're the problem,
(22:50):
You're emotionally unintelligent. When I've been in feminist relationships that
really allowed me to be seen and heard, it turned
back on me my own behaviors and issues when I
was met with an emotional equal who challenge me in
the way I challenge them. So it's actually quite hard
to recognize when you're not having like the big sparks
and the chemical reactions and you're actually in a feminist
(23:12):
relationship where you're not playing into that internalized misogyny. Now
you're presented with like, oh my god, there's so much
I haven't discovered about myself while I've been kind of
suppressing and toning down and listening to that internal monologue.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
And what do they say, what's the happiest group of
people on the planet? Single women and women's single women
in the fifties.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
You're absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
And it's the women who have been like I've been there,
done that, got the T shirt. Yep, I sought the validation.
I had these relationships that you know, weren't feminist, and
I'm opting out. Yeah, I'm opting out, Like I just
I'm at the stage where I don't need that anymore.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
It's like there will be Goldberg quote like I don't
want someone in my house, like.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
I don't in my house like kind of it's so
clean normally. Yeah, it's just you, and I feel like
it's this whole thing where it's like, Okay, well I
had kids and I got married, so he did what
you expect me to. But now you're like not paying
attention to me because I've aged out of the male gaze.
So I can just chill, yeap, I can just chill
and I can just like eat whatever the fuck I want,
(24:16):
and I can look however I want, and I can
wear whatever colors and clothes. I don't have to be
attractive anymore, and I don't need to find a husband,
and I don't need to be a mother. But you're
still a mother.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
But is it then like, and this is really the question.
Is it when the women who have found themselves in
these predicaments, who have sought out relationships, long term monogamous
heterosexual relationships, got married, had the kids started to age
out of that male gaze, and then discovered like it
didn't matter no matter what effort they put in, it
didn't matter anymore. That then become that internalized misogyny megaphone.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Oh my god, do you think so like the women
who are.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Like holding on gripping the remains of that feeling.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Yeah, I think so, Yeah, And honestly got again the sympathy.
That's what I mean.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
It must be awful, it.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Must be so so hard, and especially if you are
still in the environments I'm thinking about where I grew up,
And I grew up in like Queensland in Australia, which
is like Florida, right, the Florida of Australia.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
I spent sixteiars in Queensland too.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yeah, And you grew up in like the fucking Alabama
I did.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Orange, Yeah, Orange. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
We're not going to get into it.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
No, but we both have these experiences, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
And sometimes I see people from there here and I'm
just like, oh my god, I can just see that
you're angry, and you're angry because you don't know who
you are, and you're angry because you've been buying into
this system. But you don't realize that's why you're angry,
Like you don't realize that like all of these feelings
and this like hatred that you are projecting towards primarily
younger women. And I see this with a lot of
(25:46):
older women in my like where I grew up. All
this anger that you're like projecting towards younger women's actually
not like you're not angry at them, Like you're angry
that you didn't get that. Yeah, and you were like
play by the rules because I had to. I had
to do all these things that i'd actually, you know,
innately like my deep inner like self concept did not
(26:07):
want me to do these things because it wasn't free
and it wasn't liberating. But I did them anyways, So
now you should have to. And that's where I think
it comes from.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
It is kind of this. We see this with the
feminist waves too. We see this regression almost where older
women of previous waves resent the choices we now have.
And yes, and It's interesting because all I hope for
myself is that when I become an older woman, that
I champion the next generation of women. Yeah, and the
changes they want to make, because they might be different
(26:35):
fights to mine, but they are reflective of the new
frontier of what they're seeking next. And it must be
hard to be left out of that. If you have
two choices though, you can lie down and complain or
you can get up and join them.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Yeah. You know who I think is so great at that. Like,
I'm just gonna give a shout out to my grandma,
who's like, oh my god, the truest feminists that ever
fucking lived. Like, she is just so open and curious.
And she you know, she said this to me the
other day. She's American and she had to vote in
the recent election, and she said, whenever I vote, like,
(27:09):
I choose to vote for the for the person in
who I imagine is doing it the hardest. And I think,
what how would they vote? And I vote that way?
This is exactly right. Use your vote for someone less
privileged than yourself. Yeah, And she brings out to like
her feminist principles as well. She's like, I don't understand it.
I don't know what you're doing, but like cool down
(27:29):
for that, don't care. Her big thing is like cosmetic surgery.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
That's my big thing too.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Actually yeah, and she's and that's like her big thing.
Where it's like it is the ultimate frontier of like
I think in my mind, like it's the ultimate frontier
of internalized misogyny versus like freedom of women to do
what they want. But then like, are the insecurity is
only coming from it's a whole.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Well, I think that that's what the pick me conversation
is about too, because are we just being sort of
playing into the problem by criticizing other women. But then
it comes back to this idea of what choice feminism is,
which is the idea which I disagree with, that anything
that a woman does is inherently feminist because a woman
made that decision. But it's about individualism, it's about individualism
(28:15):
versus collective action. Then too, and when we are playing
into a system that hates us, we are still feeding,
monetizing and continuing a vicious cycle. And cosmetic procedures is
another way pick me girls play into the male gaze.
And it's not everyone that gets botox or has cosmetic
privigues as a pick me. God, That's not what I'm saying,
but we do need to assess at a higher level
(28:36):
and step back from our immediate want to remove an
insecurity and think who am I doing this for?
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yeah, And I think that's act like the exact best
way to think about it is all right, this is
still your choice and it will always be your choice,
but part of the choice is like a thought process
behind it. With any choice, again, it's fact like the
thing we were talking about with like marriage or choosing
to be child free, any choice, like you give up something,
(29:04):
and interrogating the reason that you choose to do something
I think is important and I know that like previously
it was like makeup, I think we've all gotten to
the point where like no, no makeup is self expression
as well as like a asking in insecurity. And I wonder,
like where that discussion is gonna go with cosmetic surgery,
(29:25):
because I honestly don't have an opinion on it. I'm
completely stuck on the fence with it.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
I am anti cosmetic surgery, but I love having conversations
about this because I'm so willing to change your mind
on this, and I think we should all be like
that with a range of topics. But one of the
conversations I had with the follower of mine when I
was posting about this recently was she said, you actually
haven't aged yet, and so it's very easy from you
from a twenty six year old's body to say I'm
(29:50):
against engaging in and feeding into the anti aging industry,
the beauty industry, when actually you have the privilege of
youth still and you don't know how you'll feel about
your body and what that means to see it change
down the line. I thought that was a fantastic criticism
that really made me think about my argument.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Wow, I've never thought of that. I kind of got chills.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Yeah, it was amazing. I don't think I've changed my position. Yeah,
I really thought about it, and it's I'm never applying
a judgment to an individual for making the choice. I
want us as individuals to come together and critique the
system that has made us feel we need to do this.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
And the other thing that I actually saw I had
a similar conversation with someone offline and she was like, Okay,
but don't you understand like being hot makes you powerful?
So and it's true, it's like it is very very true.
So maybe it's like you accept, you embrace the evil
for the good. I did. I on the fence about it.
(30:42):
Didn't agree, now that agreed nor disagreed. Thought it was
an interesting point. She was like, Okay, if I want
to be someone who breaks the glass ceiling, and that's
the first step, right, we just want to break the ceiling,
get the hole open so all the other birdies can
fly out. That was not a metaphor the women just
you know, it was a metaphor for an a trim
(31:05):
like that Bertie is that's so funny anyhow, And she
was like, okay, so if I want to be someone
who can like walk in a room and like you know,
change policy or change change like institutions, or convince people
to donate more to a charity or this or that,
(31:27):
or support the arts, like if I'm hot, I can
do that better. And so is that like I've decided
to play into the game for the greater good. And
she made this like very interesting argument for it.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
I think it's a compelling argument, but I think it's
immediately tarnished in a way by saying that is a
woman locking the door behind her because there are other
women who do not have the same privilege or baseline.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Yeah, because we know.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
That pretty beautiful beauty exists on a spectrum. And as
much as I want, we want to say everyone's beautiful,
we know that it's still hierarchical and that Western beauty
standards mean that it's like thin white women that benefit, right, Yeah,
And so I would always say, like, of course, do
what you want to do. I do want people to
lean in if they want to wear a certain thing
and fashion and make up our art forms. The woman
(32:17):
talking about being hot and pretty privilege, Yes, that's an
argument that I think is really interesting to explore. But
are you just again locking that door and pulling up
the ladder from behind you for other women who cannot
reach that same height.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
I'm going to bring that back to her. Maybe she's
listening to this episode. I want to see what she says,
all right. I want to finish up by just talking
about something that I get asked about a lot from listeners.
Is a lot of my female listeners will be like,
I've just sided a new job, got my first big
girl job. I'm in the corporate environment, I'm in finance,
I'm in whatever. How do I asert myself in this
(32:54):
male dominated space, Like, how do I say I just
love to be here without feeling like I'm going to
be thinking about someone that messaged me recently? And I'm paraphrasing,
but she was basically like, how do I do this?
How do I stand out? How do I be myself
without feeling like I'm going to be punished for that.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
I think that there's a few elements here. First is communication,
and I would say keeping records of things. That sounds
a bit suspicious in all these things, but I think
that in corporate workplaces, I actually used to work for
a union and be like in sort of employment law
and defending people, so like a lot of my role
was protection self protection for people. What I mean by
(33:36):
this is when you want to prove what you're doing
at work and assert your worth and the role you're
playing here in this ecosystem, keep records of achievements, keep
records of well done projects and tasks, keep records of
great emails, keep records of problems you find in the workplace.
If you've asserted a policy problem, if you've asserted lacking organizations,
(33:58):
if you've asserted concerns about a particular employee, like are
you someone who's harassing you or something? Keep a written
record of what's going on is one thing. Two is
make sure you're getting paid what you're worth. There is
nothing like organizing like pay reviews six monthly, talking about metrics,
where your hierarchy work, what your dreams and visions are,
what your plan is, what you actually are interested in,
(34:21):
pursuing your passions in the workplace, and where you want
to go. I think a lot of this before we
get to the stage of like how do I assert
myself at work? Is getting really comfortable knowing what you're after.
Because when you know what you're seeking, and you have goals,
and you have a plan and an outline, and you
know what you're good at and you believe in that,
that means that when you are in the workplace, you
(34:42):
feel a lot more comfortable having tough conversations, whether it
be with other employees in conflict, whether it be with management,
in seeking reviews, performance updates, going further in the workplace.
But I think that this can be difficult because we
know there's a lot of tox workplaces around. But knowing
your rights at work, knowing what you can and can't do,
(35:05):
and knowing which boundaries you want to push, which boundaries
you want to respect, and what you want to make change.
Doing is incredibly important because I'm not going to say
to you like get in there and go and start
a fight, or you know, like get in the morning
tea and no.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
No.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
I think that we need to understand which rules are
worth breaking and why. And I think we need to
understand what we want from work because I think it's
also about putting in place boundaries like I don't go
home after six pm because I don't want to start
setting the boundary that I will do anything to stay back,
and I work much harder than others. There's this fine
balance between kind of emerging out of a girl Boss era.
(35:39):
So we don't want people killing themselves at work for
crumbs and being walked on. I want people to assert
their worth in the workplace by getting things done well,
asking the right questions, asking and expecting better for themselves,
working hard but working smart too.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Well way that I do this and I like what
you said about you know, we're exiting the boss era.
We are moving on from that. We're all about respecting
our self worth as people who aren't just machines. But
in any interaction anything where I have to as sert
a boundary, I just imagine the person that I admire
most doing that for me. So I think, like I'm
(36:17):
trying to think about, like who I would choose for
this example, for like a workplace example, had a really
amazing boss manager when I was a management consultant. Her
name was Heidi and she's just a legend. And sometimes
when I'd have to like assert myself and be like, no,
I'm going home because it's my grandma's birthday or I'm
going home because of X y Z, I would just
imagine that she was there instead being like, oh, yeah,
(36:38):
by the way, Jemy needs to leave. Yeah, And I
would just like picture that like she was right there
with me, or I would picture that I was her,
and what would she say in that circumstance, what would
she do? How would she act? I use this in
every situation.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
It reminds me of like my approach to dating last
year was be the person you want to date.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Applying it to this is like be the person you'd
want to employ. Yeah, So it doesn't mean working a
fourteen hour day. You wouldn't want that of your employee,
because we don't expect that of our employees, right. We
would want someone who turns up to work on time
or lets us know why, communicates clearly, communicates kindly, has
you know, brings their personality to work, is respectful and
(37:17):
has great conversations and does high quality work and challenges themselves.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Yeah, And that's the other thing is like work does
feel like a huge part of your personality, but it's
not your entire identity. No, And you actually can't be
someone who is a good employee who's going to get
ahead if you give everything to your workplace and leave
nothing for yourself. So I love that.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
As a self employed people too, I'm like, I need
to take my own advice.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, no, it doesn't apply to us stuff I've got dah.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
But that's the other thing I would say. And it's
to do with all of this. So often our views
are more progressive and what would be what would you
say to your friend? But not what are you not
applying to yourself in these circumstances? Something to really reflect
on too.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
I do this to my sister all the time, Like
my sister's a professional athlete, and I'm always like, no,
like stand off for yourself, like, don't let them boss
you around demand more money. And then in my situations,
I'm like, no, I don't think I've ever been out
on the podcast before, but it is how it is.
All right, we're going to wrap up. But I asked
this final question of everyone, and I just love to
hear what they have to say. What is one piece
(38:19):
of advice you would have for people in their twenties.
Doesn't have to be about what we talked about today.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
This is a bit random. I've actually never given this advice,
like in a formal way on podcasts. Is usually reserved
for my closest friends. And it might sound a bit
strange because there's so much more inspirational, pinteresty sort of
stuff that I could go for here. But in your relationships,
your close relationships, whether it be romantic friendship, whenever someone's
going through a hard conflict at work, whatever with their
(38:46):
romantic partner, I always say, what is your threshold at
the basement, And like, what I mean is how low
are you willing to go? Because what I've found over
the last few years in dating and in friendships and
things is when I get upset in a relationship I'm struggling.
Often you're being depleted one percent at a time, so
(39:06):
I think like, oh, you know, they did this last
week and they did this this week. But neither of
those things feel like an adequate amount to cause a
problem over or start a conflict. And what ends up
happening often is you end up twenty five percent depleted
and not knowing how you got there, how You're like
all of these one percent items, these tiny little things
have built up, and it feels ridiculous to bring them up,
(39:28):
but I'm not happy. And the advice I would give
is to find really clearly where your bottom line is
in your relationships, because for a lot of people it's
like cheating or like a friend like fundamentally betraying you
in some very significant way. And I think we need
to improve our boundaries and understanding of ourselves and what
(39:49):
we expect from our relationships. So instead of waiting to
find the basement, I would say to people, know where
your basement is, because it allows you a sense of
self respect and understanding, and it helps you raise conflict
and concerns earlier.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
That's fabulous advice and no one's given it before. Oh thanks,
it's a really really good one know where your basement is,
how low you go limbo a limbo job.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
I think it's because often we just find ourselves like
I can't believe I got here because it's been seven
minor or medium things. Yeah, and it's it's gone past
the basement and you don't know how you got there.
And I never want people to feel like that.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
And I'm sure people listening to this you're probably thinking
of your own example right now, Like in your brain,
you're thinking about a friendship or a relationship, or a
work instance or a nahbor whatever that you have not
done this for and now you can do it.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
So, Hannah, thank you so much for coming on the show,
Thanks for having me. I'm going to link every single
place that you can find her in the show description,
including her amazing podcast Big Small Talk and Big Talk.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
And soon to be another one another one you could
probably guess what it's called.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Yeah, leave your suggestions in the comments. And also I
would really really tell you if you liked this conversation
to follow cheek Media because it's incredible where I get
so much little tidbits of information from. As always, if
you enjoyed this episode, make sure that you give us
a five star review. Follow along, leave a comment, leave
(41:14):
some kind words. Follow us on Instagram at that Psychology
Podcast if you want to see what new episodes we
have coming out, if you want to leave a comment
or leave a suggestion, or have a discussion about what
we talked about in this episode. If you agree, if
you disagree, we still love to hear from you regardless,
and until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle
with yourself as we enter the holiday's season, and we
(41:36):
will talk very very soon.
Host
Jemma Sbeghen
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