October 18, 2025 • 30 mins
We’ve all heard the term thrown around – in books, in TV dramas, in news articles – we’re taught to be scared of it. But rarely do we consider what it actually means. In today’s bonus episode, we take a look at sociopathy.
We explore:
- Differentiating sociopathy and psychopathy
- Common misconceptions
- Early origins of the term
- The role of self-awareness and masking in sociopathy
- Whether all sociopaths are bad
- Treatments and management for sociopathy
Listen now!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the podcast where we talk through some of the big
life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
mean for our psychology.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to
the podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Today.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I've got another little bonus episode for you guys. So
these shorter episodes are a little bit different from our
usual deep dives. Think of them as like little coffee
break chats where we tend to just unpack a single term,
a single theory, a single psychological concept that is probably
misunderstood or just thrown around pretty casually. And the goal
(00:50):
here is just to give you something that you can
kind of listen to on the go, to give you,
like just enough clarity to be a little bit more
confident when you hear these terms pop up, but also
just like for your commute, when you don't want to
listen to like a forty five minute hour long episode.
This is the this is the alternative. Today's topic though,
(01:11):
is one I get asked about all the time. Sociopathy.
This is a term that is floating around everywhere at
the moment. It has been for a while on TikTok
when it comes to true crime content, even like in
dating advice, and often in ways that aren't exactly accurate.
(01:33):
So we're going to talk about it today. What is
sociopathy actually mean, what does it not mean? And how
does it different from somebody who's a psychopath or a narcissist.
There's so many different distinctions that we need to make.
But first things first, sociopathy isn't actually a clinical diagnosis
in modern psychology. You will not open the DSM five
(01:57):
and find sociopathy listed as a formal disorder. Anyone who
tells you that does not know what they're talking about.
What you will find, however, is antisocial personality disorder or ASPD. Sociopathy.
Calling someone a sociopath is more so a cultural term.
(02:19):
Historically it was used at times by a psychologists to
describe a particular kind of person. But now we call
it ASPD antisocial personality disorder. What does that disorder? What
does that come to describe? So the American Psychiatric Association
defines ASPD as a pattern of disregard for and the
(02:41):
violation of the rights of others. It often begins in
childhood or early adolescents. It continues into adulthood, and people
with ASPD may find it harder to develop empathy for people.
They have a lack of regard for social norms. They
are often sitful, highly irritable, have some kind of conduct
(03:04):
issue or disorder, and show more erratic or impulsive behaviors.
This is kind of what a sociopath is now seen
as now Because of this impulsivity, sociopaths are often seen
as people who are very reactive and very quick to
(03:26):
maybe anger or hurt others. It might also be unsurprising
that they also have a lot of substance use issues.
One survey found that they're almost seven to eight times
more likely to meet the criteria for alcohol dependence and
fifteen to seventeen more times likely to meet the criteria
for drug dependence, and the prevalence of ASPD in prison
(03:47):
settings is incredibly high. The amount of people that you
would find who have had interaction with the legal system
who would receive a diagnosis of anti social personality disorder
or sociopathy if you want to use the old term,
is around the one in three mark or In one
(04:08):
study they did in two thousand and one, they looked
at twenty three thousand prisoners. It was one in two,
almost fifty percent of people who are in prison. We
could flippantly call them sociopaths. They would have a lot
of the characteristics of this anti social personality disorder. So
that is really what we're talking about today, this kind
(04:30):
of individual who just seems to almost know how society operates,
to understand it, but not really know how to how
to cope, not even cope, not even know how to
act within that system, within a human system of empathy
and of kindness towards other people and of respect and
(04:52):
regard for other people's feelings. Now, there's another thing that
people often get confused with sociopaths or sociopathy, and that
is psychopaths or psychopathy. These two often get lumped together
all the time. They are not the same thing. Psychopaths.
That was the original og umbrella term that was used
(05:16):
to describe anyone with personality types that differed to the
perceived norms. But in the nineteen thirties and nineteen forties,
psychiatrists began to kind of notice that just calling anybody
who had a personality issue a psychopath was incredibly limiting
in terms of how they were going to diagnose these
(05:37):
individuals and the different expressions of traits that they all had.
And so that's when they really started to kind of
kind of like tear apart or kind of delineate the
different kind of conditions that fell under this umbrella term,
and sociopath back in that time was one of them.
(06:00):
Psychopath remained, but there was a difference. A sociopath is
someone who developed this kind of antisocial personality because of socialization,
So because of their upbringing, because of their environment, because
of their community. That is why they are the way
they are. Psychopaths the theory is they were just born
(06:22):
this way. They have this innate trait which makes them callous,
unaware of others feelings, or just deeply detached but also manipulative.
So historically, sociopathy is about external factors. Psychopathy is about
(06:43):
something that is hardwired deep inside of you, and over
time the lines kind of got blurred, and now we
have this ASPD diagnosis which typically covers them all. Now,
one other thing to know about the difference between sociopaths
and psychopaths is people are still using those terms around you.
Is that sociopaths actually can form attachments with other people.
(07:07):
They do love people. They do get married because they
care about people. Psychopaths, on the other hand, are deeply calculated.
They are more likely to be successful, they are actually
less likely to end up in prison, and they mask
their manipulative traits using human relationships. They will get married,
(07:29):
they may even have kids, but they rarely actually have
any kind of deeply empathetic and emotional bond with those individuals.
The other thing is, sociopaths are highly impulsive. Psychopaths are
highly highly rational, So that's really important to clarify psychopaths
as well. They will you will not find them in
(07:51):
the DSM either. It is still kind of a term
that is used, especially in forensic psychology and criminology, especially
for people who researching and trying to understand criminal behavior
and the causes and the patterns and the societal impact
of crimes. But as of right now, you could not
walk into a doctor's office and say and or exhibit
(08:13):
signs of sociopathy or psychopathy and get that as your label.
It's a lot more casual. So why are these words
still used, but also why are they so misused? Why
do we come across someone who maybe we don't like
(08:34):
he was maybe a little bit mean, maybe a little
bit manipulative, and just be like that person is a psychopath.
That person is a sociopath. A lot of it comes
down to this thing called language drift. This is when
a word starts in one context but kind of gets
stretched until the point where its meaning is completely different
(08:57):
from how it was originally used. Part of why the
term sociopath has experienced this language drift and has made
it into pop culture and our daily psychobabble is because
it really does describe the worst of the worst, and
it sounds really dramatic. It has weight, it has an edge.
(09:19):
Calling your ex a sociopath feels more powerful, maybe even
more validating, than just saying or describing them based on
their behaviors, you know, saying they were manipulative, they didn't
treat me with respect. When you then give that person
a label and say they were a sociopath, it feels
like you legitimize what you went through by giving their
(09:42):
pattern of behavior a more serious and recognizable, socially recognizable label.
That makes people really go likeugh and take a step back,
like a sociopath, well, that's scary, that's what serial killers are.
Pop culture has also poured a lot of fuel on
the fire. Think about a lot of TV shows like
(10:02):
Villain l In, Killing Eve, Joe Goldberg in You Like,
the entertainment industry is so good. They are profoundly good
at writing these really fascinating, dark, morally ambiguous characters and people,
and then the label of sociopath gets slapped onto them
(10:23):
to kind of add to like the mistake of the story.
But you know, their behaviors are heightened for entertainment, you know,
the stalking, the murder, the elaborate schemes. That's not always
going to occur in someone with ASPD or sociopathy, which
is you know, ASPD is a serious condition. And what
happens in these situations is that when we see these
(10:46):
extreme character depictions and we have this extreme language, it
often just becomes a shorthand for new ones. You know,
what we really are trying to say is that is
that person is dangerous. That person is toxic. You guys
know how I feel about that word. But that person
is toxic. That person may hurt you, may hurt me,
(11:08):
has hurt me. And because that complexity of that whole
situation is hard to sometimes get across, sociopath psychopath makes
it a lot easier. There's also something about the mystique
of sociopathy that just keeps people using it. Right, it
feels like this secret insight or explanation for somebody's behavior,
(11:30):
when otherwise we really wouldn't have words for who they
are and why they are the way they are. When
we just are able to label someone and package them
up as a sociopath, it feels like you've kind of
cracked the code of why they act the way they do,
and it does give a sense of closure. It's like
this is a neat box to put someone's messy behavior
(11:51):
into that allows me to just be like, okay, I
can that relationship is over, or I'm not going to
be around that person, or they are this all bad individual.
It makes it easier for you to not feel empathy
or sympathy for them. The thing is is that a
lot of people are actually not like that. A lot
of people have nuanced to their behavior. They act differently
(12:12):
in different contexts, not because they're a sociopath, just because
they're human. They have flaws, they make mistakes, and so
it's why I don't always like when we use this
extremist language to label something as this very intense thing
to claim they can never change and to kind of
not investigate why they may be the way they are
(12:34):
any further. And you may be saying, like, well, what's
wrong with that? If they're a bad person, why can't
I just call it as I see it. I get
where you're coming from there, And I understand that, I think,
because it loses meaningful when we actually really do need
these words and we do want to use them in
clinical settings or in settings where their magnitude needs to remain. Also,
(13:01):
just for the simple case of the fact that it
could do a lot of reputational damage not just to
that person but to you as well, is also something
to consider and is why we should maybe be a
little bit cautious with using these terms. But the final
argument is that the overuse of these terms really stigmatizes
(13:21):
people who actually do live with ASPD, who actually do
have antisocial personality disorder, kind of painting them as villains
when sometimes they are actually trying very hard to fix
their behavior and they also aren't necessarily always responsible for it. Now,
(13:42):
that is a hard thing to say. I do believe
that people are responsible for their behavior, but the way
they are, the way they are sometimes was not their
fault and is incredibly complex, and sometimes saying well that
person's a sociopath, they will always be a sociopath almost
(14:02):
guarantees that that will happen. That is a self fulfilling prophecy.
Whereas when we talk about it as antisocial traits, or
we talk about it as a personality disorder, a sickness,
an illness, a condition, rather than destiny, it actually does
give people the capacity to learn empathy the way that
you could learn as skill, and to kind of change
(14:24):
their behavior. This is something very interesting that I've only
really learned from researching this episode. People with antisocial personality
disorder do actually have treatment options, and although they are
highly represented in the prison system and in addiction statistics,
(14:46):
it doesn't mean that some of them don't actually learn
empathy and learn how to be kind to people. And
if you've never had to learn how to be kind
to people, you might think that's just like so unnatural
and weird. But for them, it's just like how they
were born and how they are and there's a lot
of credit to be given to them that they are
(15:06):
willing to do that, And I know it sounds so
strange I'm kind of it does sound like I'm justifying
sociopathy or antisocial traits, but I do have empathy for
these people that they don't have empathy, Like, it would
be very hard to make the right decisions if you
just had this part of your brain that just genuinely
(15:27):
didn't work, and it would be very hard to then
want that part of your brain to be switched on.
Sometimes I wish I didn't have empathy. I honestly, it
kind of sucks sometimes. I'm sure that if you're a
very sensitive or empathetic person, you will understand where I'm
coming from. Where it's like, you wish you didn't have
to care about everything and everyone and every tragedy that
(15:48):
was going on in the world. You wish you didn't
absorb other people's emotions, but you do, and that's a
gift and it would be very hard to take on
if you didn't already know how to do that or
weren't born that way. Okay, we're going to take a
short break, and then we're going to talk about how
this condition actually emerges, where it comes from, and what
(16:10):
some of those treatment options are that we spoke about before.
So super excited to get into it. Stay with us.
We'll be right back after this short break. Okay, we
are back talking about sociopaths, everybody's favorite topic. So sociopaths,
people with ASPD, they do walk among us. But what
(16:33):
makes them like this, because honestly, we actually didn't really
know until recently. So something we mentioned before is that
sociopaths ASPD. I know it keep going back and forth
between them, We'll just say sociopaths. Sociopaths. It's believed that
their lack of empathy is environmental and social, so it
(16:55):
was learnt or conditioned from early experiences. Also comes down
to emotional regulation. A pivotal moment for sociopathy or ASPD
research came in like the two thousands and the twenty tens,
where psychologists were really able to get down to the
(17:15):
mechanism that meant that these individuals could not control their
impulses even when they wanted to or even when it
was hurting people. And what they found was that studies,
neurological studies found that in the brains of people with sociopathy,
the regions that were involved in emotion and self control
(17:38):
had very very limited, very reduced activity. This was particularly
in the prefrontal cortext and the amygdala. The neural pathways
in those areas seemed basically unused and underdeveloped. These people
had not learnt at a pivot point how to use
(18:01):
these areas of their brain. Their brain maybe didn't need
them or shut them off for survival reasons or for
whatever it was. And so nowadays as an adult, they
are impulsive, they are reactive, they are prone to emotional outbursts.
They have that reduction in empathy twin and genetic studies
also provide some insight into why these patterns might emerge.
(18:25):
Researchers show that traits associated with sociopathy are influenced both
by genetics, but they are switched on by environment. So
what does that mean. That means that a lot of
people who go on to develop ASPD or sociopathy they
always were going to have a genetic predisposition. Basically, there
(18:48):
was a switch in their brain that started off that
was always going to be there, and then something in
the environment turned it on. Now, the thing is, there
are people for whom that gene will never be turned on.
They have a really great, happy life. They go through
(19:09):
childhood being very happy and being loved and so these
sociopathic traits never emerge, but it's when someone endured childhood trauma, neglect,
inconsistent parenting, bullying, that that basically it's switched on. So
someone's come along and gone, all right, time for this,
(19:32):
we're going to use this now. Many people believe that, yes,
people are born with this, but it really takes shape
and is influenced by your environment growing up. What you
might be thinking is, you know, why can't these people
just learn Because they've mentioned you know, people can learn empathy.
Why can't they just learn not to hurt people? Why
(19:56):
are there all these individuals in prison or dealing with
addiction that nobody caught soon enough and that didn't learn
from their mistakes, specifically with the legal system earlier. And
I also ask myself that question. The answer is that
a lot of research shows that people who have this
(20:17):
personality disorder they don't even know that they have it.
So this is the trick with a lot of personality
disorders that are like machiavellian or narcissistic or sociopathic. They
just don't see it. There's a part of their ego
that protects them from seeing this difference between them and
other people. Or seeing that difference as being important. They
(20:40):
might notice patterns. They might know that they constantly get
into fights, that they struggle to maintain a job or
a relationship, or that they're making impulsive choices, but they
don't necessarily connect those behaviors to a personality disorder. A
lot of the time they may blame other people for that.
Studies have showed that the really linked to differences as
(21:01):
well in self reflection and emotional insight, and a lot
of people who have sociopathy or ASPD they actually can't
do this thing we called mentalizing, basically understanding your own
emotions through how your emotions affect others. It's also called metacognition,
being able to think about your thinking. This ability seems
(21:24):
to be a lot lower for certain individuals. On the
flip side, though some people are remarkably aware of their traits.
Take M. E. Thomas. This is a self identified sociopath.
She wrote, They wrote Confessions of a Sociopath. I've read
that book. It's amazing, and they talk about noticing early
(21:44):
on that they had tendencies toward manipulation. They were emotionally detached,
they could charm like adults in their life and feel nothing.
There was all this. It's quite sad to say, but
these instances of animal abuse, and she realized they realized, like,
there's something wrong with me. People are reacting to this poorly,
(22:07):
and she was able to learn how to navigate the
world by assessing how she could get ahead through people's
positive and negative appraisals of her actions. This is what
psychologists call masking, consciously adapting your behavior to fit social
expectations whilst keeping seemingly more divergent traits under wraps. So
(22:31):
awareness can exist on a spectrum. Some individuals are genuinely
oblivious to this being them problem. Others are hyper aware
and hyper strategic. There's actually some debate in psychology about
whether certain antisocial traits, like having low empathy or having fearlessness,
(22:51):
can actually be an advantage in specific context, which is
why some people don't outlearn them. For example, in high
stakes professions like if you're a surgeon, if you're in
business negotiations, if you're in the military, being less emotionally
reactive can sometimes be an asset, though of course that
(23:12):
is very controversial to say. Obviously, you would want someone
performing open heart surgery to care whether their patient lived
or died, but maybe you wouldn't because then they could
make the more justified and right decisions without the emotions
of oh my god, is this person going to be?
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Am I going to kill this person? What are their
chances of survival? Like if someone thinks purely in the
math or the likelihood or the rationality of the circumstances,
maybe it would make them better in this environment. That
is a debate we literally do not have time to
get into. In fact, I don't even think I have
wouldn't even know how to get into that debate because
(23:54):
it's so back and forth and so complex, But it
is definitely something to think about. So we've been kind
of circling around this idea for a while throughout this episode,
which is that there is treatment for sociopathy. Obviously there
is not a cure, but there are ways to help
people manage socially, to reduce impulsivity, to improve relationships, and
(24:18):
some people can function completely normal as you and I would.
These include talk therapy, mentalization based therapy, so of course,
helping people understand their own mindsets and then project their
mindsets onto other people, which is like a proxy or
like a B grade version of empathy. There's also cognitive
(24:41):
behavioral therapy, which I think is literally used for every
mental personality condition under the sun, but the therapy is
never often just one thing, and it's incredibly specific to
the individual people. People won't even treat people with this
(25:02):
disorder because they are of the camp that it's not
possible to think. I think it is. I think that
if this is the best thing that we have, you
may as well give this person the best thing, not
just for them, but because like all the people that
are going to come across them throughout their life, if
you could teach someone even five percent of the natural
(25:24):
empathy that a normal person would have, that is going
to make everyone's odds of being hurt, being harmed, feeling bad,
feeling terrible a lot less. But again, it is very,
very controversial as to whether this is an option. You
can't just put every single person who has these traits
in prison and expect society to get better, especially since
(25:45):
they will get out of prison and they will learn,
and they will mask and they will feel even more
isolated and willing to harm other people. There are so
many nuances to this that has gone back hundreds and
hundreds of years of how do we deal with people
who just seem to not care about others or seem
to have this impulsivity towards hurting people. That being said,
(26:08):
what do you do if you think that a friend
of yours, a family member of yours, a partner of
yours does have antisocial personality disorder is a sociopath? I
think first things first, don't panic and try not to
(26:29):
diagnose too quickly. Try and see them as a combination
of traits rather than grouping them under this label for
as long as you probably possibly can, because I think
it will again stop you from panicking and stop you
from freaking out and maybe actually give them the space
to prove you wrong. Also, it's incredibly emotionally charged. You
(26:52):
can do a lot of reputational damage, can do a
lot of harm to the relationship. If you just say
you're a manipulative you're a sociopath, I don't want anything
to do with you. But if you genuinely do believe
they are, pay attention to the isolated incidents and keep
track of them. You know, one off selfish or manipultive behaviors.
It happens in everyone, but if it's persistent over time,
(27:14):
if it's repeated, deceit, a lack of empathy, impulsive or
reckless behaviors are consistent disregard for others feelings. That's really concerning,
and you don't actually have to continue a relationship with
this person. If this is who they are, obviously I
believe they can learn, they can change. It does depend
(27:34):
on who the person is. If this is your parent
and they're in their sixties, maybe that ship has sailed
for them, and the best thing you can do is
just accept that this is who they are. They have
no control over this. Now it's up to you to
decide whether you want to be in that person's life
or not. I think if you feel comfortable doing so,
asking the person, like being curious about what it feels
(27:59):
like for them, might also just help you and help
you make a decision and help the relationship. Questions like
you know, what does it feel like when that like
big emotion comes up? Or why did you do that
to that person? What were you hoping to get out
of that? What does feel like when you're embarrassed? What
does it feel like when you're angry? If anything else,
(28:20):
it's just very fascinating to understand their psychology. More, we
know that sociopaths often don't connect to these social emotions
in the same way, So maybe that will help you
see them more clearly for who they are, without expecting
things from them that they're not capable of, and you'll
be able to make a more clear cut decision for
(28:43):
yourself with that information. Knowing that they may never learn
these emotions, may never connect with you the way that
you want them to because they are not able to.
Please seek some support, seek some guidance. For more clarity
on this, talk to a mental health professional who can
help you navigate the situation. Set immediate boundaries with immediate consequences,
(29:09):
because that is like a very sure fire away for
someone to learn what is and is not acceptable in
their relationship with you. Rather than betting on them having
the empathy to be able to tell they just might not,
you have to speak it to them like a child.
And sometimes it is just best to walk away like
(29:30):
you're allowed to just be completely team you and completely
like I just don't want anything to do with this,
and yeah, that's actually okay. You're an adult. You know
what's best for you and your emotional landscape. If this
is the best decision, you should do it. Anyways, I
think that's all we have time for today. I know
I said a mini episode. We're at thirty minutes. I'm
(29:52):
so sorry, but this topic is just so endlessly fascinating.
I wish that I could talk about it more. But
I will leave some resources in the descript including some
of the books that I've read about this, some of
the YouTube videos that I've watched that are just incredibly
fascinating interviews with people who have sociopathic or psychopathic traits.
It's just wild to hear how differently their brains operate.
(30:16):
But until next time, make sure you're following us on Instagram,
make sure that you are following along or subscribed, whether
you are listening on Spotify, Apple, iHeart YouTube. Be safe,
be kind, be gentle to yourself. We will talk very
very soon.
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the podcast where we talk through some of the big
life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
mean for our psychology.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to
the podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Today.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I've got another little bonus episode for you guys. So
these shorter episodes are a little bit different from our
usual deep dives. Think of them as like little coffee
break chats where we tend to just unpack a single term,
a single theory, a single psychological concept that is probably
misunderstood or just thrown around pretty casually. And the goal
(00:50):
here is just to give you something that you can
kind of listen to on the go, to give you,
like just enough clarity to be a little bit more
confident when you hear these terms pop up, but also
just like for your commute, when you don't want to
listen to like a forty five minute hour long episode.
This is the this is the alternative. Today's topic though,
(01:11):
is one I get asked about all the time. Sociopathy.
This is a term that is floating around everywhere at
the moment. It has been for a while on TikTok
when it comes to true crime content, even like in
dating advice, and often in ways that aren't exactly accurate.
(01:33):
So we're going to talk about it today. What is
sociopathy actually mean, what does it not mean? And how
does it different from somebody who's a psychopath or a narcissist.
There's so many different distinctions that we need to make.
But first things first, sociopathy isn't actually a clinical diagnosis
in modern psychology. You will not open the DSM five
(01:57):
and find sociopathy listed as a formal disorder. Anyone who
tells you that does not know what they're talking about.
What you will find, however, is antisocial personality disorder or ASPD. Sociopathy.
Calling someone a sociopath is more so a cultural term.
(02:19):
Historically it was used at times by a psychologists to
describe a particular kind of person. But now we call
it ASPD antisocial personality disorder. What does that disorder? What
does that come to describe? So the American Psychiatric Association
defines ASPD as a pattern of disregard for and the
(02:41):
violation of the rights of others. It often begins in
childhood or early adolescents. It continues into adulthood, and people
with ASPD may find it harder to develop empathy for people.
They have a lack of regard for social norms. They
are often sitful, highly irritable, have some kind of conduct
(03:04):
issue or disorder, and show more erratic or impulsive behaviors.
This is kind of what a sociopath is now seen
as now Because of this impulsivity, sociopaths are often seen
as people who are very reactive and very quick to
(03:26):
maybe anger or hurt others. It might also be unsurprising
that they also have a lot of substance use issues.
One survey found that they're almost seven to eight times
more likely to meet the criteria for alcohol dependence and
fifteen to seventeen more times likely to meet the criteria
for drug dependence, and the prevalence of ASPD in prison
(03:47):
settings is incredibly high. The amount of people that you
would find who have had interaction with the legal system
who would receive a diagnosis of anti social personality disorder
or sociopathy if you want to use the old term,
is around the one in three mark or In one
(04:08):
study they did in two thousand and one, they looked
at twenty three thousand prisoners. It was one in two,
almost fifty percent of people who are in prison. We
could flippantly call them sociopaths. They would have a lot
of the characteristics of this anti social personality disorder. So
that is really what we're talking about today, this kind
(04:30):
of individual who just seems to almost know how society operates,
to understand it, but not really know how to how
to cope, not even cope, not even know how to
act within that system, within a human system of empathy
and of kindness towards other people and of respect and
(04:52):
regard for other people's feelings. Now, there's another thing that
people often get confused with sociopaths or sociopathy, and that
is psychopaths or psychopathy. These two often get lumped together
all the time. They are not the same thing. Psychopaths.
That was the original og umbrella term that was used
(05:16):
to describe anyone with personality types that differed to the
perceived norms. But in the nineteen thirties and nineteen forties,
psychiatrists began to kind of notice that just calling anybody
who had a personality issue a psychopath was incredibly limiting
in terms of how they were going to diagnose these
(05:37):
individuals and the different expressions of traits that they all had.
And so that's when they really started to kind of
kind of like tear apart or kind of delineate the
different kind of conditions that fell under this umbrella term,
and sociopath back in that time was one of them.
(06:00):
Psychopath remained, but there was a difference. A sociopath is
someone who developed this kind of antisocial personality because of socialization,
So because of their upbringing, because of their environment, because
of their community. That is why they are the way
they are. Psychopaths the theory is they were just born
(06:22):
this way. They have this innate trait which makes them callous,
unaware of others feelings, or just deeply detached but also manipulative.
So historically, sociopathy is about external factors. Psychopathy is about
(06:43):
something that is hardwired deep inside of you, and over
time the lines kind of got blurred, and now we
have this ASPD diagnosis which typically covers them all. Now,
one other thing to know about the difference between sociopaths
and psychopaths is people are still using those terms around you.
Is that sociopaths actually can form attachments with other people.
(07:07):
They do love people. They do get married because they
care about people. Psychopaths, on the other hand, are deeply calculated.
They are more likely to be successful, they are actually
less likely to end up in prison, and they mask
their manipulative traits using human relationships. They will get married,
(07:29):
they may even have kids, but they rarely actually have
any kind of deeply empathetic and emotional bond with those individuals.
The other thing is, sociopaths are highly impulsive. Psychopaths are
highly highly rational, So that's really important to clarify psychopaths
as well. They will you will not find them in
(07:51):
the DSM either. It is still kind of a term
that is used, especially in forensic psychology and criminology, especially
for people who researching and trying to understand criminal behavior
and the causes and the patterns and the societal impact
of crimes. But as of right now, you could not
walk into a doctor's office and say and or exhibit
(08:13):
signs of sociopathy or psychopathy and get that as your label.
It's a lot more casual. So why are these words
still used, but also why are they so misused? Why
do we come across someone who maybe we don't like
(08:34):
he was maybe a little bit mean, maybe a little
bit manipulative, and just be like that person is a psychopath.
That person is a sociopath. A lot of it comes
down to this thing called language drift. This is when
a word starts in one context but kind of gets
stretched until the point where its meaning is completely different
(08:57):
from how it was originally used. Part of why the
term sociopath has experienced this language drift and has made
it into pop culture and our daily psychobabble is because
it really does describe the worst of the worst, and
it sounds really dramatic. It has weight, it has an edge.
(09:19):
Calling your ex a sociopath feels more powerful, maybe even
more validating, than just saying or describing them based on
their behaviors, you know, saying they were manipulative, they didn't
treat me with respect. When you then give that person
a label and say they were a sociopath, it feels
like you legitimize what you went through by giving their
(09:42):
pattern of behavior a more serious and recognizable, socially recognizable label.
That makes people really go likeugh and take a step back,
like a sociopath, well, that's scary, that's what serial killers are.
Pop culture has also poured a lot of fuel on
the fire. Think about a lot of TV shows like
(10:02):
Villain l In, Killing Eve, Joe Goldberg in You Like,
the entertainment industry is so good. They are profoundly good
at writing these really fascinating, dark, morally ambiguous characters and people,
and then the label of sociopath gets slapped onto them
(10:23):
to kind of add to like the mistake of the story.
But you know, their behaviors are heightened for entertainment, you know,
the stalking, the murder, the elaborate schemes. That's not always
going to occur in someone with ASPD or sociopathy, which
is you know, ASPD is a serious condition. And what
happens in these situations is that when we see these
(10:46):
extreme character depictions and we have this extreme language, it
often just becomes a shorthand for new ones. You know,
what we really are trying to say is that is
that person is dangerous. That person is toxic. You guys
know how I feel about that word. But that person
is toxic. That person may hurt you, may hurt me,
(11:08):
has hurt me. And because that complexity of that whole
situation is hard to sometimes get across, sociopath psychopath makes
it a lot easier. There's also something about the mystique
of sociopathy that just keeps people using it. Right, it
feels like this secret insight or explanation for somebody's behavior,
(11:30):
when otherwise we really wouldn't have words for who they
are and why they are the way they are. When
we just are able to label someone and package them
up as a sociopath, it feels like you've kind of
cracked the code of why they act the way they do,
and it does give a sense of closure. It's like
this is a neat box to put someone's messy behavior
(11:51):
into that allows me to just be like, okay, I
can that relationship is over, or I'm not going to
be around that person, or they are this all bad individual.
It makes it easier for you to not feel empathy
or sympathy for them. The thing is is that a
lot of people are actually not like that. A lot
of people have nuanced to their behavior. They act differently
(12:12):
in different contexts, not because they're a sociopath, just because
they're human. They have flaws, they make mistakes, and so
it's why I don't always like when we use this
extremist language to label something as this very intense thing
to claim they can never change and to kind of
not investigate why they may be the way they are
(12:34):
any further. And you may be saying, like, well, what's
wrong with that? If they're a bad person, why can't
I just call it as I see it. I get
where you're coming from there, And I understand that, I think,
because it loses meaningful when we actually really do need
these words and we do want to use them in
clinical settings or in settings where their magnitude needs to remain. Also,
(13:01):
just for the simple case of the fact that it
could do a lot of reputational damage not just to
that person but to you as well, is also something
to consider and is why we should maybe be a
little bit cautious with using these terms. But the final
argument is that the overuse of these terms really stigmatizes
(13:21):
people who actually do live with ASPD, who actually do
have antisocial personality disorder, kind of painting them as villains
when sometimes they are actually trying very hard to fix
their behavior and they also aren't necessarily always responsible for it. Now,
(13:42):
that is a hard thing to say. I do believe
that people are responsible for their behavior, but the way
they are, the way they are sometimes was not their
fault and is incredibly complex, and sometimes saying well that
person's a sociopath, they will always be a sociopath almost
(14:02):
guarantees that that will happen. That is a self fulfilling prophecy.
Whereas when we talk about it as antisocial traits, or
we talk about it as a personality disorder, a sickness,
an illness, a condition, rather than destiny, it actually does
give people the capacity to learn empathy the way that
you could learn as skill, and to kind of change
(14:24):
their behavior. This is something very interesting that I've only
really learned from researching this episode. People with antisocial personality
disorder do actually have treatment options, and although they are
highly represented in the prison system and in addiction statistics,
(14:46):
it doesn't mean that some of them don't actually learn
empathy and learn how to be kind to people. And
if you've never had to learn how to be kind
to people, you might think that's just like so unnatural
and weird. But for them, it's just like how they
were born and how they are and there's a lot
of credit to be given to them that they are
(15:06):
willing to do that, And I know it sounds so
strange I'm kind of it does sound like I'm justifying
sociopathy or antisocial traits, but I do have empathy for
these people that they don't have empathy, Like, it would
be very hard to make the right decisions if you
just had this part of your brain that just genuinely
(15:27):
didn't work, and it would be very hard to then
want that part of your brain to be switched on.
Sometimes I wish I didn't have empathy. I honestly, it
kind of sucks sometimes. I'm sure that if you're a
very sensitive or empathetic person, you will understand where I'm
coming from. Where it's like, you wish you didn't have
to care about everything and everyone and every tragedy that
(15:48):
was going on in the world. You wish you didn't
absorb other people's emotions, but you do, and that's a
gift and it would be very hard to take on
if you didn't already know how to do that or
weren't born that way. Okay, we're going to take a
short break, and then we're going to talk about how
this condition actually emerges, where it comes from, and what
(16:10):
some of those treatment options are that we spoke about before.
So super excited to get into it. Stay with us.
We'll be right back after this short break. Okay, we
are back talking about sociopaths, everybody's favorite topic. So sociopaths,
people with ASPD, they do walk among us. But what
(16:33):
makes them like this, because honestly, we actually didn't really
know until recently. So something we mentioned before is that
sociopaths ASPD. I know it keep going back and forth
between them, We'll just say sociopaths. Sociopaths. It's believed that
their lack of empathy is environmental and social, so it
(16:55):
was learnt or conditioned from early experiences. Also comes down
to emotional regulation. A pivotal moment for sociopathy or ASPD
research came in like the two thousands and the twenty tens,
where psychologists were really able to get down to the
(17:15):
mechanism that meant that these individuals could not control their
impulses even when they wanted to or even when it
was hurting people. And what they found was that studies,
neurological studies found that in the brains of people with sociopathy,
the regions that were involved in emotion and self control
(17:38):
had very very limited, very reduced activity. This was particularly
in the prefrontal cortext and the amygdala. The neural pathways
in those areas seemed basically unused and underdeveloped. These people
had not learnt at a pivot point how to use
(18:01):
these areas of their brain. Their brain maybe didn't need
them or shut them off for survival reasons or for
whatever it was. And so nowadays as an adult, they
are impulsive, they are reactive, they are prone to emotional outbursts.
They have that reduction in empathy twin and genetic studies
also provide some insight into why these patterns might emerge.
(18:25):
Researchers show that traits associated with sociopathy are influenced both
by genetics, but they are switched on by environment. So
what does that mean. That means that a lot of
people who go on to develop ASPD or sociopathy they
always were going to have a genetic predisposition. Basically, there
(18:48):
was a switch in their brain that started off that
was always going to be there, and then something in
the environment turned it on. Now, the thing is, there
are people for whom that gene will never be turned on.
They have a really great, happy life. They go through
(19:09):
childhood being very happy and being loved and so these
sociopathic traits never emerge, but it's when someone endured childhood trauma, neglect,
inconsistent parenting, bullying, that that basically it's switched on. So
someone's come along and gone, all right, time for this,
(19:32):
we're going to use this now. Many people believe that, yes,
people are born with this, but it really takes shape
and is influenced by your environment growing up. What you
might be thinking is, you know, why can't these people
just learn Because they've mentioned you know, people can learn empathy.
Why can't they just learn not to hurt people? Why
(19:56):
are there all these individuals in prison or dealing with
addiction that nobody caught soon enough and that didn't learn
from their mistakes, specifically with the legal system earlier. And
I also ask myself that question. The answer is that
a lot of research shows that people who have this
(20:17):
personality disorder they don't even know that they have it.
So this is the trick with a lot of personality
disorders that are like machiavellian or narcissistic or sociopathic. They
just don't see it. There's a part of their ego
that protects them from seeing this difference between them and
other people. Or seeing that difference as being important. They
(20:40):
might notice patterns. They might know that they constantly get
into fights, that they struggle to maintain a job or
a relationship, or that they're making impulsive choices, but they
don't necessarily connect those behaviors to a personality disorder. A
lot of the time they may blame other people for that.
Studies have showed that the really linked to differences as
(21:01):
well in self reflection and emotional insight, and a lot
of people who have sociopathy or ASPD they actually can't
do this thing we called mentalizing, basically understanding your own
emotions through how your emotions affect others. It's also called metacognition,
being able to think about your thinking. This ability seems
(21:24):
to be a lot lower for certain individuals. On the
flip side, though some people are remarkably aware of their traits.
Take M. E. Thomas. This is a self identified sociopath.
She wrote, They wrote Confessions of a Sociopath. I've read
that book. It's amazing, and they talk about noticing early
(21:44):
on that they had tendencies toward manipulation. They were emotionally detached,
they could charm like adults in their life and feel nothing.
There was all this. It's quite sad to say, but
these instances of animal abuse, and she realized they realized, like,
there's something wrong with me. People are reacting to this poorly,
(22:07):
and she was able to learn how to navigate the
world by assessing how she could get ahead through people's
positive and negative appraisals of her actions. This is what
psychologists call masking, consciously adapting your behavior to fit social
expectations whilst keeping seemingly more divergent traits under wraps. So
(22:31):
awareness can exist on a spectrum. Some individuals are genuinely
oblivious to this being them problem. Others are hyper aware
and hyper strategic. There's actually some debate in psychology about
whether certain antisocial traits, like having low empathy or having fearlessness,
(22:51):
can actually be an advantage in specific context, which is
why some people don't outlearn them. For example, in high
stakes professions like if you're a surgeon, if you're in
business negotiations, if you're in the military, being less emotionally
reactive can sometimes be an asset, though of course that
(23:12):
is very controversial to say. Obviously, you would want someone
performing open heart surgery to care whether their patient lived
or died, but maybe you wouldn't because then they could
make the more justified and right decisions without the emotions
of oh my god, is this person going to be?
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Am I going to kill this person? What are their
chances of survival? Like if someone thinks purely in the
math or the likelihood or the rationality of the circumstances,
maybe it would make them better in this environment. That
is a debate we literally do not have time to
get into. In fact, I don't even think I have
wouldn't even know how to get into that debate because
(23:54):
it's so back and forth and so complex, But it
is definitely something to think about. So we've been kind
of circling around this idea for a while throughout this episode,
which is that there is treatment for sociopathy. Obviously there
is not a cure, but there are ways to help
people manage socially, to reduce impulsivity, to improve relationships, and
(24:18):
some people can function completely normal as you and I would.
These include talk therapy, mentalization based therapy, so of course,
helping people understand their own mindsets and then project their
mindsets onto other people, which is like a proxy or
like a B grade version of empathy. There's also cognitive
(24:41):
behavioral therapy, which I think is literally used for every
mental personality condition under the sun, but the therapy is
never often just one thing, and it's incredibly specific to
the individual people. People won't even treat people with this
(25:02):
disorder because they are of the camp that it's not
possible to think. I think it is. I think that
if this is the best thing that we have, you
may as well give this person the best thing, not
just for them, but because like all the people that
are going to come across them throughout their life, if
you could teach someone even five percent of the natural
(25:24):
empathy that a normal person would have, that is going
to make everyone's odds of being hurt, being harmed, feeling bad,
feeling terrible a lot less. But again, it is very,
very controversial as to whether this is an option. You
can't just put every single person who has these traits
in prison and expect society to get better, especially since
(25:45):
they will get out of prison and they will learn,
and they will mask and they will feel even more
isolated and willing to harm other people. There are so
many nuances to this that has gone back hundreds and
hundreds of years of how do we deal with people
who just seem to not care about others or seem
to have this impulsivity towards hurting people. That being said,
(26:08):
what do you do if you think that a friend
of yours, a family member of yours, a partner of
yours does have antisocial personality disorder is a sociopath? I
think first things first, don't panic and try not to
(26:29):
diagnose too quickly. Try and see them as a combination
of traits rather than grouping them under this label for
as long as you probably possibly can, because I think
it will again stop you from panicking and stop you
from freaking out and maybe actually give them the space
to prove you wrong. Also, it's incredibly emotionally charged. You
(26:52):
can do a lot of reputational damage, can do a
lot of harm to the relationship. If you just say
you're a manipulative you're a sociopath, I don't want anything
to do with you. But if you genuinely do believe
they are, pay attention to the isolated incidents and keep
track of them. You know, one off selfish or manipultive behaviors.
It happens in everyone, but if it's persistent over time,
(27:14):
if it's repeated, deceit, a lack of empathy, impulsive or
reckless behaviors are consistent disregard for others feelings. That's really concerning,
and you don't actually have to continue a relationship with
this person. If this is who they are, obviously I
believe they can learn, they can change. It does depend
(27:34):
on who the person is. If this is your parent
and they're in their sixties, maybe that ship has sailed
for them, and the best thing you can do is
just accept that this is who they are. They have
no control over this. Now it's up to you to
decide whether you want to be in that person's life
or not. I think if you feel comfortable doing so,
asking the person, like being curious about what it feels
(27:59):
like for them, might also just help you and help
you make a decision and help the relationship. Questions like
you know, what does it feel like when that like
big emotion comes up? Or why did you do that
to that person? What were you hoping to get out
of that? What does feel like when you're embarrassed? What
does it feel like when you're angry? If anything else,
(28:20):
it's just very fascinating to understand their psychology. More, we
know that sociopaths often don't connect to these social emotions
in the same way, So maybe that will help you
see them more clearly for who they are, without expecting
things from them that they're not capable of, and you'll
be able to make a more clear cut decision for
(28:43):
yourself with that information. Knowing that they may never learn
these emotions, may never connect with you the way that
you want them to because they are not able to.
Please seek some support, seek some guidance. For more clarity
on this, talk to a mental health professional who can
help you navigate the situation. Set immediate boundaries with immediate consequences,
(29:09):
because that is like a very sure fire away for
someone to learn what is and is not acceptable in
their relationship with you. Rather than betting on them having
the empathy to be able to tell they just might not,
you have to speak it to them like a child.
And sometimes it is just best to walk away like
(29:30):
you're allowed to just be completely team you and completely
like I just don't want anything to do with this,
and yeah, that's actually okay. You're an adult. You know
what's best for you and your emotional landscape. If this
is the best decision, you should do it. Anyways, I
think that's all we have time for today. I know
I said a mini episode. We're at thirty minutes. I'm
(29:52):
so sorry, but this topic is just so endlessly fascinating.
I wish that I could talk about it more. But
I will leave some resources in the descript including some
of the books that I've read about this, some of
the YouTube videos that I've watched that are just incredibly
fascinating interviews with people who have sociopathic or psychopathic traits.
It's just wild to hear how differently their brains operate.
(30:16):
But until next time, make sure you're following us on Instagram,
make sure that you are following along or subscribed, whether
you are listening on Spotify, Apple, iHeart YouTube. Be safe,
be kind, be gentle to yourself. We will talk very
very soon.
Host
Jemma Sbeghen
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