364. The 6 stages of any relationship ft. Thais Gibson

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello everybody, I'm Jemma Spake and welcome back to the
Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through
the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and
what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back

(00:25):
to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is
so great to have you here. Back for another episode.
Today we welcome back one of our favorite, my favorite guests.
She has been on the show so many times. She
is one of the global experts on attachment style relationships
how to find healthy love. She's written two books, she

(00:48):
has coached thousands of people, and has done more research
on this than probably any other person. The other day,
I got an email from her about this new theory
that she's been working on. It's called the six Stages
of a Relationship, and I just knew we had to
talk about it because it is incredibly accurate. First of all,
it is so accurate how it represents almost every relationship

(01:12):
we find ourselves in. And I also think that learning
about these six stages, especially in our twenties, what they represent,
what they mean, could help us all be more realistic
about love and also understand the highs and lows of
dating and the highs and lows of devotion and being
with somebody long term. Without further ado, his hye is

(01:36):
Tys Gibson. Welcome to the Psychology of your Twenties Again.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
Thank you for having me. You're one of my favorite
people to chat with and join podcasts with and just
honestly catch up with. So it's really nice to be here.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
No, it's so lovely. Every time you come on the show,
and you've been on a couple of times, you're like
my go to attachment style expert. I love your in
depth knowledge. I love how you talk about these topics.
I've kind of spoiled my next question, which is tell
the listeners a little bit about yourself and what kind
of work you do.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, so, I to your point. I definitely work in
the relationship space by trade. I am a counselor and
coach and I've been in the space for quite a while,
no more than a decade, and I tend to focus
a lot in the attachment style space. And I think
that comes from growing up with a fearful avoidant attachment
style myself and really pouring into trying to understand how

(02:32):
to heal and I put a huge emphasis in focus
not just on like understanding things and intellectualizing things, but
actually rewiring because the more we can really dig into
the subconscious and rewire our patterns and leverage neuroplasticity, that's
where you get to see the real healing and change
and growth. And so that was something that helped me
on my journey so much and something that I'm always
really excited to talk about and share with other people.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
And you do, like, just the way you talk about
it is incredible. And if you haven't listened to our
other episodes, I think we did one on anxious attachment
and avoidant very much recommend going and listening to those,
two of my favorite episodes that we've ever done, to
be honest. But today we're gonna talk about this I

(03:15):
guess new theory that you've come up with, this new
concept that you told me about, and I was like,
how come no one has ever shared this or talked
about this or come up with this before. It is
the sixth stage theory of relationships. You know, I adore
a theory. I adore like any kind of succinct explanation
of like human phenomena. Can you just like quickly explain

(03:37):
this one for me before we go into each stage individually.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
Yes, So the theory is essentially that every relationship has
six stages. And I saw this through working with tens
of thousands of clients, that there's essentially a life cycle
of every relationship, and it starts at a high level.
We'll talk about them in detail, for sure, but at
a high level. The first stage is the dating stage,
and the intention of this stage is to really vet
and get to know somebody and like see if they're

(04:03):
a good fit for you and vice versa. And then
when we make a commitment and we move into the
honeymoon stage, and this is the stage where essentially we
have a rose colored glasses on and we're all excited
and everything feels great and it's easy and it's flowing.
But we're usually showing ourselves still with a good bit
of conditions. We're on our best behavior, we're still people pleasing,
maybe a little bit more than we otherwise would. We're

(04:25):
not as comfortable, and then we let down the mask
and get comfortable, and that actually is what draws us
into the power struggle stage. And the power struggle stage
you'll see where statistically most people break up. But the
crazy part is that if you don't realize that in
the long grand scheme of an entire relationship, like if
you're going to marry somebody and be with them for decades,
perhaps the dating, honeymoon, power struggle are such a small

(04:47):
snapshot of a whole relationship. And if we don't ever
have a relationship that makes beyond the power struggle, then
people think that the whole relationship is like this high
of infatuation, this low of fighting and more arguing, and
it breaks up. And the reality is that the power
struggle stage is actually something that presents this really unique
and powerful opportunity to know each other more deeply, to

(05:10):
work through conflict, to learn, to hash things out, to
learn each other, and to get into a rhythm. And
if we do that, we then progress into future stages,
which become the rhythm stage, the devotion stage, and eventually
the everlasting stage, which is where we have this true
and deep sense of lasting contentment in the relationship. And
so we'll boil into all of the stages, of course,

(05:30):
in a lot of detail, but the theory essentially is
rooted in the fact that every relationship, point blank period
goes through this life cycle, and there are specific rights
of passage that we need to move from one stage
to the next. So in order to continuously progress, there's
actually things we have to learn and get good at
with each other. And if we don't learn those rights

(05:50):
of passage, we'll actually get stuck in a certain stage.
And the longer we're stuck in a stage without progressing,
the more likely the relationship is to end. So what
I find to be really net meaningful because if people
are struggling in relationships and they never really have a
lasting relationship, it's always a year or two years they
break up, you know, things like this, and they're looking
for something longer lasting and more prominent for them. Or

(06:14):
if somebody is in a stage now listening perhaps and
they're like, I feel like I'm stuck in one of
these stages and everything's rocky and we're not progressing. It's
much less of the time that you have the wrong
partner and much more of the time that you instead
have the wrong tools and the wrong behaviors and relationships
that are actually keeping you stuck and not allowing you
to progress. And I would make a really strong argument,

(06:35):
having seen this firsthand, that so often people are like,
oh maybe I'm not compatible with somebody. Oh my gosh,
what if it doesn't work out and they feel stuck.
And actually, once they get the certain tools that they
need to unlock the next stage, things move forward much
more effortlessly. So that's essentially the theory in a nutshell.

Speaker 1 (06:52):
Which I love. And we were talking before I pressed record,
and I was like, to get to be vulnerable and
to be completely honest, like I'm staying my current relationship,
Well I'm not current, just my relationship reaching well, no,
my current relationship like reach a new stage that I
never have with other partners, and like we've just definitely
passed through this like power struggle phase where you know

(07:15):
we're moving and like we really have to like know
each other deeper. And I've never passed through this stage before,
and I feel like we're getting to the end of it.
And this theory has like opened my eyes to all
previous relationships that I have ever had, and every single
one of them follows this and obviously, like they break

(07:35):
up at different points, but never beyond the rhythm stage.
Have I broken up with someone, Which is interesting.

Speaker 2 (07:43):
And that is almost exactly how it goes for people,
So once people I find as a general ballpark. I
don't have like really hard data on this. I'm just
pulling from like tens of thousands of conversations and clients
over the years, but I would say generally you're looking
at like eighty percent chance of the relationship really life
asking for the long, long haul if you make it
to the rhythm stage. So at that point, it's because

(08:06):
you've learned how to navigate, and as we dive into
the power struggle and the rights of passage and all
these things, you'll see and learn that if we can't
get the important lessons right in that stage, that's what
makes everything fall apart. But if we get them right
in that stage, it's what exactly prepares us for everything
to come, so that we can thrive and stay connected
and know how to weather hard times in the future

(08:27):
if we ever go through them, or you know, be
able to really build roots that are allowing a relationship
to thrive and last for the long haul. And I
almost think of like a relationship itself, if there was
a visual analogy, every relationship is like a little tree,
like a little sapling, And in the dating stage, where like, oh,
there's a little tree growing and we're so excited, and
then you water it and it gets sunlight and it

(08:48):
builds slightly deeper roots and we're like, wow, it's growing.
And then the power struggle stage is like the first
storm that happens for the tree, and it's like, you know,
there's a thunderstorm, and if we don't know how to
navigate that stage, the tree can get ripped out of
the ground. But you know, if it's really windy, perhaps, right,
But if we're able to really build deeper and deeper
roots and nourish that tree across time, eventually the roots

(09:11):
become so deep that even if there's like a hurricane,
that tree is not going to come out of the ground.
And so that's really what this is all about. It's like,
how do we build those deep roots with the right tools,
And that's what allows people to when they make it
to the everlasting stage. People report in the everlasting stage
and not just having the longest lasting relationships, of course,
but they actually report being the most fulfilled in their relationships.

(09:32):
And what's sad and hard to see sometimes is that
I think everybody's seen this where you know a couple
in your life or maybe you're that couple now and
where you can tell people that are truly happy together.
They've been together a long time, but they're truly fulfilled.
And then there's other couples you see where they're together
and maybe they're married for thirty years, but you can

(09:52):
tell they're just not happy, like they're just kind of
sticking it out and they're just you know, they're still
fighting all the time and they're miserable, and it's like, well,
that's not success in a relationship. And what that is
is it's actually they never left the power struggle stage.
So people can stay The dating and honeymoon are different
time spans, but the power struggle people can actually stay
in for the long haul if they don't actually learn
how to move through it.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
Okay, we need to get into these stages because I
feel like I'm gonna I have so many questions, but
I'm like, let's talk about the stages first, because then
i can go from there. The beginning with step one,
which is you've got to start talking to someone, You've
got to start dating somebody. One of the key things
to like look out for during this period that may

(10:38):
predict like future compatibility.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yeah, great question. So in the dating stage. The dating
sage generally lasts about zero to six months, and it
will be people will try to speed it along a
little bit based on their attachment style. Like people who
are a little more anxious, they'll want to go from
dating into honeymoon quicker, because the rate of passage into
honeymoon is more about did we decide to commit to
a relationship to are we just still seeing each other.

(11:01):
People who are a little more avoidant leaning, they'll tend
to be like, let's stay in the dating stage forever.
They'll really drag it out and usually they're closer to
the six month mark. But the really important things to
go in prepared for in the dating stage are number one,
you have to know what you're looking for. And truly,
I think people really underestimate the stage and how important

(11:22):
it is, because if you don't do the dating stage properly,
it's like you try to plant a seed or a
crop that you're trying to grow in the wrong soil. Right,
It's like, if you don't have soil conducive to growing
the crop, you're gonna have a hard time. And a
lot of people that I would see in my practice
is they would go in they would date somebody, they
would have very low standards for dating. It would be like,

(11:44):
I just want to find somebody I'm attracted to and
I have fun with. And then they get into the
space of trying to win the person over. When they
start dating them, they're like, oh, I just want to
get them to like me and want to commit to me,
and they put their focus and attention there instead of
on vetting, and the entire purpose of the dating stages
about betting, which we'll come to in a second, So
they don't vet and then because they're in this like

(12:05):
people pleasing stage trying to win the person over. By
the time you then move through the honeymoon stage, you
get into the power struggle stage. You're not set up
for success and you're going to see all of your
incompatibilities are more glaring. There's going to be a lot
of challenges, and so the first thing you want to
start with to your question is like, you want to
know what are my standards, what are my needs in

(12:27):
a relationship, and what are my non negotiables? And I
always get people to start there and then really get
clear about those things. And then the second question, and
you would think people know to just look for this
right out of the gates, but they don't. The second
question is where should I be looking for this person,
because you'd be shocked at the amount of people who
will say things like, Oh, I really want to find

(12:47):
somebody who's emotionally available and who's working on themselves, And
I'm like, oh, where have you been looking? And people
will be like, oh, well, I guess I just kind
of go out to the bar every Friday and Saturday
and hope to meet somebody. And it's not that there's
no more available people at a bar, of course there
will be. It's just that you're minimizing your chances of
finding the right person. Like, if you're really looking for
a healthy relationship and you're trying to master the dating

(13:08):
stage of your life, we want to be looking, okay,
emotionally available people, people working on themselves. I'm going to
go to like a personal growth meetup in my area
once a week before, Yeah, exactly exactly. So we want
intent in that stage. And what that allows us to
do is be mindful of our own time, not waste
our own time, and actually honor our boundaries and honor

(13:32):
what it is that we're looking for our standards essentially
in this stage, and once we meet somebody that we're
interested in and we're looking in the right place and
we have the intentions of what we're consciously looking for,
the next big piece underneath that is you want to
go in and be like, Okay, I need to start
asking the questions that are going to get to the
bottom of whether or not we're compatible. So, if we're

(13:52):
doing the dating stage right, it's about learning compatibility. It's
about being intentional to see if there's actually a fit.
And so what I often say to people is like,
write out your standards, write out your your needs, and
then go on your first date. Just see if there's chemistry,
see if you have a fun time, see if there's
a connection. And after that, you want to intend to
ask one hard question per date, so you know, I know,

(14:16):
for me, as an example, like obviously I've been married
with my husband for ten years, but if I were
going into a dating scenario, I would be like, you know,
for me, one of the first things would be I
want to know that somebody can work through conflict. I
don't want to. I don't like to sweep things under
the rug. I like to hash things out that's extremely
important to me. So you know, I might go on
the first date have fun, and on a second date,

(14:37):
I might say, how do you handle conflicts? I'm so curious, Like,
what do you tend to do if there's conflicts in
your life? I might ask about like with friends or family.
If I hear somebody say, oh, I just don't like conflicts,
I never have it. I just kind of ignore stuff
and you know, park it away. I don't like to
have conversations like that. I'm looking for things to be easy.
I might be like, well, would you be willing to
address things if it was important to you? And if

(14:59):
they were like ah, and I'll tell actually, I probably
wouldn't go on another date because that's a non negotiable
for me. And so you get to get to the
bottom of these hard questions, and it also draws out
interesting and meaningful conversation. And that's the whole point of
the dating stage, is to get to know the person
and see if they're actually going to fit into your life.
And on the flip side, where a lot of people

(15:21):
also tend to miss the mark is that we also
owe our own authenticity in the dating stage, and we
have to let ourselves get vetted too. So when we
have these conversations, we also have to share ourselves truthfully
and honestly with other people, because we have to let
them see if they're you know, we're a good fit
for them as well. And I think too many people

(15:41):
they kind of people please and try to say all
the right things instead of the authentic things. And what
you'll find is, even though that might seem easier and
more gratifying in the short term, it's actually much worse
for the long term relationships chance of success because if
we're people pleasing too much in the day stage and
pretending too much that we're okay with things, we aren't,

(16:03):
and we don't have boundaries that we actually do, or
we don't have needs that they're actually really meaningful to us.
By the time you get to the power struggle stage,
where naturally things start to come out of the woodworks
and we show our truth there, you are so much
less likely to make it through. So to successfully the
later stages, you set yourself up for success. You vet properly,
you show up with your authentic self, You share yourself authentically.

(16:26):
We know our standards and non negotiables going into the
relationship and we try to look in the right places
and those are like the big key rights of passage.

Speaker 1 (16:33):
And you stop yourself from being hurt, you know what
I mean? Like at this stage, you probably aren't deeply
emotionally bonded to someone and or bonded at all. Like
you know, you could get to the the like the
power struggle phase with somebody and really like them and
love them because like you spent time with them, whereas

(16:55):
they're still the same person that they were when you
first met them, Like if you were able to rea
like we are never going to be compatible early on,
like you save yourself so much pain. I also want
to ask you about this, which is something that I
know so many people are going to be asking themselves
right now. How do I not just get carried away

(17:15):
with the idealized version of someone during this stage, the
version that I convinced myself could happen, especially I think
around commitment. You know, someone says like, oh, yeah, I
just really want to take things slow. I'm not really
looking for anything serious, but let's see where things go.
And in your mind you hear, oh I just need

(17:36):
to win them over, or they just need time, or
you start hearing things that you want to hear. How
do you deal with that maybe tendency within you during
this stage.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
I love that question. That's a phenomenal question. Of course,
you always ask great questions. The first thing I would
say is that we want to set a goal and
an intention to not date people's potential. And when I
would have clients, you know, back in the day when
I was running my practice, I would get them people
who I would say, are you know, predisposed to doing that?

(18:09):
You know, the types of people who are a little more anxious,
they see the best in people. It's such a charming quality,
but they're much more likely to do that. I would
actually get them to keep a dating journal, and I
would get them too, and I would actually tell people,
and it's a great exercise to do at home, is
I would get them to after a date, after spending
time with somebody, I would ask them. I would get
them to say, how is this person actually making me

(18:29):
feel okay? Because sometimes that question, when we're so into
the fantasy and then we don't hear from them and
we're anxious, or they're they're not great at communicating, or
the date's not going that well. Sometimes we cope by
getting into the fantasy, and we actually leave the reality.
And when we leave reality and operate in the fantasy,
we're out of our body. We're actually not in our body.
We're slightly dissociated. We're up here in our mind and

(18:51):
our fantasy and we forget to feel in our body
what's actually happening, and so, hey, how is this person
actually making me feel? It's a really good place to
you anchor you back in your body. The amount of
times I would see people in very intermittent relationships or
relationships where people weren't showing up and they're chasing and
then you say, well, how is this person actually making
you feel? And they're like, oh, I'm actually anxious all

(19:12):
the time. I'm actually like having a hard time sleeping
at nights and stating this person, Oh my god. You know,
so it really anchors you. It's a really good question
to ask yourself. And then I get people to rate.
You know, you go in, you track your standards, you
track your needs, and as you're vetting them, you're journaling
about it. Are they actually showing up for this? And
if you're seeing oh they could or maybe they will

(19:34):
in the future. As you're journaling these things out, we
have to keep coming back to the reality are they
are they doing these things now? Because when we you know,
whenever we're vetting somebody, we absolutely unequivocally have to be
betting their behavior, not their words. And that is the
trick to vetting properly. If we vet their behavior, it's

(19:54):
what they're already doing. And it's interesting because your behavior
is who you actually are. Your behavior, you're your subconscious
habituated patterns, and your subconscious makes up ninety five plus
percent of all of your beliefs and thoughts and emotions
and actions. And so when you're moving from a place
of behavior, Oh, this person is being consistent and how
they text good, This is how they're showing up. Oh,
this person is emotionally available and really listening and being

(20:18):
present on dates. Okay, great, this is how they're showing
up versus in my desires or what I would hope
to see in their words they say, oh, yeah, I'll
try to text you more often, no problem, But they don't. Right, Well,
then that's in their desires or their words, it's not
in their behavior. So when we're vetting, that's one of
the best things to really keep us anchored in the
truth and in the reality, so we don't get carried
away from the fantasy. And just the last thing I

(20:40):
would say to that too, it was like, such a
good question is if you find yourself being the person
who has the tendency to get carried away and want
to be chosen and want to win the person over,
and you're prioritizing that, we also have to ask ourselves,
what in me feels so safe and comfortable in that,
Why do I keep lee myself and chasing and wanting

(21:02):
to be chosen and prioritizing the need to be chosen
over how I'm actually feeling how much my needs are
actually met. And sometimes it's because we had a childhood
where we felt like that. Sometimes it's because that's what's
familiar and comfortable for us and that's safe. Or sometimes
it's because you know, we're just caught in this huge
wound if fearing not being good enough, and if we
see those big things popping out, then it's a really

(21:23):
good time to dig into those things, maybe do some
rewiring or some healing around those core beliefs so that
we can free ourselves from continuously enacting those patterns.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
Honestly amazing spot on advice as someone who definitely used
to have a tendency to be chosen and then changed
the way I approached those situations. It works, It definitely
does exact. Okay, so we've we've vetted well, we've done
our job. We've been very good at getting people's references,
getting people's character references, understanding people's like core motivations and

(21:56):
who they are. What does it take to move into
the honeymoon stage? And what does this stage feel like?
And how does it feel differently to the stages before
and Aftah.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yeah, great questions. So so coming out of the dating stage,
and I think it's so important to like that really properly.
I also want to say one thing too, because sometimes
I notice people will be like, oh, it's like a
job interview. Like, you don't want dating to be a
job interview. That's not the goal. So you want to
make sure that you're That's why I always say, like,
ask one question per date, because then you can have

(22:28):
fun and be present and do your thing. But you're
constantly getting you're moving the needle, you're constantly learning a
little bit of the important information. So generally we tend
to once we feel like we've got a really good
grasp of that, and once we feel like the other
person you can tell has a grasp of you. What
you'll start to see as you enter towards the honeymoon
stage is it's marked by spending more time with somebody.
Usually we're speaking to them quite consistently at this point,

(22:51):
like almost every day or every day a lot of
times as well. It's like you'll spend a couple of
nights a week with them. You're you're you know, spending
a lot of your time together, and you can tell, well,
you know, there's not really room for somebody to be
doing this with multiple people in their lives or you know,
how they hold down a job and date like this
at the same time. You know there's two it's a
lot of time commitment, and so once we see this
progress towards that, usually around the three to four month

(23:15):
mark is sort of the healthy space where you've had
the chance to collect enough information. As soon as there
is a commitment in a relationship, so hey, we're going
to be together, we're going to be exclusive, it's just
going to be us dating each other. Once there's a
conversation that is the exact right of passage that moves
you into the honeymoon stage. So once there's an actual conversation,
we've decided to commit to each other, we're going to

(23:36):
be with each other than there you are. You're in
the honeymoon stage.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
Now.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
Some people do try to move there a little earlier,
some people do move there a little later, But three
to four months is usually the best zone for people.
I find the most securely attached people actually move from
that space, and it's kind of the sweet spot. And
the honeymoon stage then becomes Okay, you're officially in this relationship,
and we'll be a little more vulnerable with each other.
We'll be a little more open with each other with

(23:59):
our feeling specifically expressing love, care, excitement, making longer term
plans like maybe to go on a trip or a vacation.
You know, there will be this sort of presence kind
of exactly exactly you know, there's this increase of bringing
this person into your life, introducing them to your friends,
sharing more of your internal world with them, and it's
a really beautiful phase. And in this phase specifically, what's

(24:22):
really interesting is you can see that people they have
elevated oxytocin in this stage, which is the bonding neurochemical.
They have elevated dopamine, which is the motivation neuro chemical.
And what's interesting about this is have you ever noticed
how people in the the honeymoon stage, you're always like
motivated to go out with them and do things with them.
Let's go to dinner, let's go here, and.

Speaker 1 (24:43):
The constantly you're always talking about them with your friends
and family. I have a friend who's in this stage
right now. Love it a bit, but you came up
for dinner last night and I was like, I cannot,
I can't hear about him anymore. I'm so sorry, but
she's like so obsessed.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
Yeah, exactly. And so we have all of this like
neurochemical ca cocktail of things. We even have the phenyl
appalalamine neurochemical, which is all about attraction. So we have
all of this like bonding, attraction, motivation, and you'll see
it in people's behavior and it's a really beautiful stage.
And after the zero to six months of somewhere in
that range of dating, we then move into about a
year to a year and a half of honeymoon. And

(25:19):
interestingly enough, this is often where a lot of people
will get engaged, get married. You know, I've seen a
lot of yeah and j at the amount of people
who I when I was back in the day when
I was running my practice, before I went into all
the online space, I would have so many clients who
would say, tays, I married my wife and then after

(25:42):
two years, as soon as after we got married, she
turned into a monster, or I'm married my husband. As
soon as I got married, he turned into someone he
never was. And people would get confused because honestly a
lot of people would think I'd say like roughly ten
percent of people would get married in the honeymoon stage
then move into the power struggle stage after marriage and

(26:02):
think that their spouse like tricked them into marrying them,
or pretended to be someone that they weren't and that
they were truly the secret like monster buying closed doors.
And when people when I would explain to people, no, no, no,
you just it's too early. You never made it into the
power struggle stage. This as natural, this is normal. You
have to learn to navigate these things that are coming up.
The amount of relief people would have of like, oh,

(26:24):
it's a stage, It's not that I was tricked, you know,
and a lot of people would feel almost a sense
of betrayal when you move into the power struggle stage,
because you know, you could date somebody, feel really good
about them, getting engaged at nine months or a year,
get married, you know, half a year later, and you're
still in your honeymoon. So so at this point of time,
this is usually that next year to year and a half,

(26:45):
and well, actually, you know, it's a beautiful time. It's
lots of fun, all these great things. But something else
really important to note is that people are still moving
from more conditionally based love because you haven't had to
have the hard conversations show and share a lot of
your deep interferes and flaws the way that you will
just mourn the power struggle stage. And so you slow

(27:06):
the mask on a little bit. You're you're still kind
of a little on your best behavior and maybe kind
of thinking about what you're going to really show or
share with the person. And so once we start getting
really comfortable, and once we start letting down the mask
and letting somebody in, when we get into that space
of comfort, all of those neurochemicals actually reduce. Okay, so

(27:27):
the Fennel ethalalamine and the oxytose and the dopamine. We
start getting more comfortable, we enter into the power struggle.
And it's precisely this that actually triggers off the power
struggle itself, because we'll start saying, hey, actually, that's not
okay with me. Actually that's a boundary for me. Actually
I know I said I like this, but I don't.
As soon as people start sharing more of their deep

(27:49):
inner world, it's a crisis for people, but it's also
an opportunity. It's like, there's this challenge because now we're
seeing all these in depth insights into somebody and we
have to figure out how to and that can be
really hard at first, but you're also getting this deep
opportunity to see into somebody way more that you love
and to let them into your world way more and
to share your authenticity at a deeper level with them.

(28:11):
So if we do the power struggle right, then things
can can be really beautiful and a lot of richness
in the relationship can come out of that. But really
that marked right of passage from the honeymoon to the
power struggle as you start getting more comfortable, and as
soon as get more comfortable, the mask drops more and
that will be what triggers off the power struggle stage.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
Okay, I'm so excited to ask you some follow up
questions because I have them, of course, But we are
going to take a short break here. When we come back,
we're going to talk more about the power struggle stage,
rhythm stage, devotion stage. Stay with us, we'll be right back.
So I kind of mentioned I, me and my partner

(28:53):
have been together for almost three years, and we definitely
hit the power struggle stage recently. Right we are in
the process of moving overseas together and all these like
big milestones happened, And there was definitely a part of
me when this friction started emerging where I was like,
oh my gosh, Oh my gosh, like this we've made

(29:15):
like maybe this relationship isn't right, or that like maybe
we don't we're not compatible. Having like kind of now
probably moved a little bit more over this hill. Why
do you think this stage has to happen and why
do you think a lot of people break up in
this stage, whether rightly or wrongly.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
So, yeah, such a great question. So to your point,
every single person pretty much across the boards, even securely
attached people they have moments of those thoughts in the
power struggle stage. So I think that's one of the
most important things to say, is that, like when you said,
all is this right? Are we are we compatible? Is
this working? Like that is so normal? And that's every

(29:57):
person's experience, and it's because we have this friction in
this stage. And so you know, obviously there's a difference
if somebody's like having these explosive arguments every day all
day and they're miserable and then they're asking those questions.
But there is a natural just like when we we
go through stages of life, sometimes we question ourselves and
different things. Oh, you know, maybe you start a new career, Wait,

(30:18):
can I really do this? Am I on the right track?

Speaker 1 (30:21):
You know?

Speaker 2 (30:21):
There's these natural sort of insecurities that pop up when
we have problems, and I find that to be one
of the most relieving things for people to hear, because
you know, people would happen. One of the biggest reasons
people break up in that stage is they take those
thoughts so seriously and then they start catastrophizing and magnifying,
and then they see everything through that lens and they're like, see,
oh my gosh, we're not compatible. I knew it, and

(30:43):
then they they like play into it more and more,
and then the other person's doing the same thing, and
then we have this vicious cycle that happens when in reality,
I find that if people just knew that, hey, this
stage is going to be a little bit confronting, you're
gonna have moments at times in the stage, especially when
it starts off, where there's doubts and you question the relationship,
just like if you start a new career and it's

(31:04):
a learning curve, you're gonna be like, wait, am I
good enough to do this? Like we do that and
it's human and it's so normal. So I just that's
a huge thing first, and then going into it. The
stage is necessary because it is I think it's such
a beautiful stage. People don't like to hear that when
they're in it, but yeahle stage because people get this

(31:26):
opportunity to move the needle from more conditionally based love
to more unconditionally based love. And so often people would
say to me, ohday, what if I want to stay
in the honeymoon stage forever? And I'm like, do you
want to just conditionally love your partner forever? Like is
that because even though it's scary, you know, you get
to see into this person, You get to like really
learn about their fears and their flaws and their needs

(31:47):
more deeply. And you'll have to learn to move out
of the stage and move through the stage effectively. How
to navigate conflict, how to be vulnerable. One of the
biggest reasons people break up to the second part of
your question is that you you actually will not be
able to make it out of the stage unless you
learn vulnerability. And I remember when when I joined you
on an episode a while back and you shared it

(32:08):
on the episode, and it was such a touching way
you shared it, and you talked about like sort of
being vulnerable and sharing something that was vulnerable for you
and it going well, and just having this sort of
like wow like moment of receiving that, and you can
think back, you know, for anybody who's ever been through that,
the moment before you're vulnerable for the first time with
somebody in a pretty meaningful way, it's terrifying, it's so scary,

(32:30):
But the moment when you had the conversation that goes well,
it's a huge breakthrough. And once you do that once
and then twice and then a few more times, and
now you're both doing it with each other. You're literally
building such deep roots for your tree, Like you're truly
getting into a space where like the roots are building
and they're growing and they're becoming. They're making the tree
so much more unshakeable. And so you know, once you

(32:52):
get into that space, it's it's yes a crisis because
there's hard things that will come up, and it's marked
by you know, bisically, people will argue more at the beginning.
You'll see if you can almost graph relationships. You go
dating honeymoon, there's this peak of infatuation power struggle. It's
like all this fighting and then the conflict goes way
down and the whole point of the power struggle and

(33:14):
there's really like four major rights of passage, Like we
have to get these four things right or we'll stay
stuck in the power struggle forever or the relationship will
end within it. Number one is vulnerability. Okay, so learning
to actually share your inner world vulnerably. I'll tell a
story here for a second. I had this client once
and she was like this lovely, amazing, just beautiful human being,

(33:35):
had like all these great qualities put a lot of
pressure on herself to be perfect in every way, like
so put together, so precise about everything, had a great job,
everything on paper, and she never ever could make it
out of the power struggle stage with people, and she
just wanted a loving, long term relationship. But when we
looked into her childhood, what we found is that she
had a father who was quite narcissistic and always made

(33:59):
her feel like second guessing herself, and she had to
be perfect to get love from him and all these things,
so she never would let somebody see her in her imperfections,
and when people would break up with her in relationships,
the common theme is people would say, I feel like
I still don't know who you are, and I feel
like we're like not getting anywhere. Yeah, And it's truly

(34:20):
no matter how quote unquote perfect somebody is, or how
well they have their life together or how you know,
you name it, if we can't get vulnerable. Vulnerability is
exactly what moves us from infatuation to real love. And
you could make a pretty strong argument that even though
we can love in the dating and honeymoon stage, it's
still kind of an infatuation based love. It's still rooted
in infatuation. And you know, when we move into the

(34:44):
power struggle and we really deeply let somebody in and
really let ourselves be seen and really learn about what
each other's sensitivities are and fears, that vulnerability breeds much
more unconditionally based love and we get this opening into that.
And so vulnerability is a huge right of passage, and
vulnerability then goes with us deeply learning how to meet
each other's needs. Number two and number three is like

(35:06):
really learning how to navigate conflict around each other's the
fears and needs together. And so as an example, you know,
you can think, let's say there's a couple and let's
say one person in the couple is somebody who needs
a lot of presence. They want somebody to be attuned
to them and be present with them, and they really
value like depth of emotional connection. And let's say we

(35:27):
have another person in the couple who, you know, maybe
that's a big need for the one person and maybe
the other person they really need gentle communication when they're
getting feedback. Maybe they are a little sensitive to criticism,
and they don't take criticism or feedback that well. They
kind of you know, it wounds them a little bit
and they're sensitive to it. So you know, in this

(35:48):
particular case, those could be issues where if one person's
not that present and one person is a little more
harsh or critical with their words, if somebody doesn't know
there's a power struggle stage and know how to navigate it,
then they could break up. But instead, if we have
the ability to talk about these things, and the person
who's sensitive to feedback might say, hey, I want to
try to hear feedback from you, but can you be

(36:09):
a little more gentle in your delivery because you know
it's a little hard for me sometimes and it takes
a certain degree of vulnerability to say that. But then
if the other person is willing to do that work
and meet them on that and practice that. And then
if the person who you know, say, the other half
of the couple is going and okay, I'll work with
my delivery. I'll be a little more gentle and considerate

(36:30):
for sure. And also I need you to be a
little more present sometimes, you know, somebody being present and
you know, really listening is really important to me, and
the other person is okay, and I'll work on that too.
We're not going to be perfect at it all of
a sudden. You know, it takes a little bit of
time to practice and work these things through. But once
they actually meet in this in a middle ground, that's

(36:51):
precisely when it's like, okay, now we're building really powerful roots.
Now we know how to naturally take each other into
consideration because we were vulnerable about these things. We heard
each other each other's fears or flaws or sensitivities, we
heard each other's needs. And now that equips us to
properly navigate conflict. And so when conflict comes up, if

(37:13):
we can approach conflict with vulnerability, with openness, with acceptance
in this particular case, all of these things start feeding
together into us building healthier collective patterns. Or we may
have to make slight compromises on each side. But what's
so interesting here is a lot of people in the
power struggle stage will say, yeah, I have to learn

(37:33):
to navigate conflict a little bit more. In the power
struggle stage, I have to There's why do we have
to hash everything out or talk about everything. It's only
for a period of time. You'll have more conversations and
more arguments because you're fusing your inner world. You have
to talk about all these things that you don't know
about each other yet, but once you naturally Okay, so
let's pretend it's me and my husband, and let's say
I'm the person who wants more presence, and maybe he's

(37:54):
the person who wants conflict, you know, under criticism and
better delay devery. If we start doing those things and
we practice them together and we get better at them,
and I naturally am more mindful in my delivery, he
naturally makes an effort to put his phone away and
be more present when we spend time together, Then when
we fuse into that together, it's exactly the fusing, and

(38:17):
that's that fourth part that moves us out of the
power struggle and into the rhythm. Because now we're in
the rhythm, we're in the flow of doing these things.
We worked on them together. We both made compromises, and
by the way, usually the exact compromises that will make
actually grow both of us and bring us closer together.
And now in doing that, you get into this rhythm.

(38:37):
You don't have to talk about all these things so much.
You know how, you know naturally how to Let's pretend
it's me and my husband. I naturally know to be
kind in my delivery with my husband, I naturally have
practiced that it gets wired in and now it's just
something I do. And that's that's exactly and precisely when
we start exiting the power struggle stage. It's the right
of passage of when we've hashed out the important things

(38:58):
enough and we actually in these new habits in the
relationship where all of a sudden we consider each other
without having to think it through or argue about it
or talk about it, and then we feel more loved
as we each need to feel loved in a relationship.
And now we're in the rhythm of things, and that's
what takes us out of that stage and into the
next one.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
Which all sounds honestly very positive to me. And something
I will say is you will be surprised how every
single long term couple relationship that you know has gone
through this stage, like every single one. I've been talking
to my friends so much about it, and they're like,
oh yeah, like of course we had that, of course.

(39:38):
And the love that you start to feel for your
partner is honestly bigger than the honeymoon stage will ever be.
Like the honeymoon stage to me and how I imagine
it is like eating a big bowl of candy and
like sweets and like malteeses and popcorn. It's like so delicious, right,
and you just want to eat and eat and then

(40:01):
like when you move, I'm guessing now we're going to
go into the rhythm stage. Into this stage, it's like
having like an incredibly nourishing home cooked meal. Yeah, it
might not like taste is like electric as a bowl
of like literal gummy bears, but like it's so much
better for you, and it does actually taste better as well.
Let's talk about the rhythm stage. You've explained how we

(40:24):
get to this stage by moving through conflict, being vulnerable,
all those other rights of passage. What does it feel
like in this moment?

Speaker 2 (40:33):
Yeah, I love your analogy so much. I've often said
it's sort of like the pleasure seeking versus the fulfillment.

Speaker 1 (40:39):
Oh I love.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
Yeah, we get this like exciting, but like fulfillment can
always outgrow pleasure seeking, you know, like grows and grows
and grows, and there's a depth to it and and
pleasure always hits like a glass ceiling like okay, cool,
this is exciting, but you can only really get so far,
but the depth of love and care that you can
feel somebody for somebody when you know them so well

(41:01):
and you've talked things out and you let them see
you so deeply and you feel seen and known and understood,
Like it's just such a totally different experience. I love
that analogy that the candy versus the home cooked meal,
which is more nourishing and better for you. And yeah,
that's fantastic. So once we get into the rhythm stage,
I think you described it so beautifully. It's like you'll

(41:23):
feel this depth of love and you'll feel nourished by
the relationship in a really profound way, and you'll know
that there's a sense of comfort there, the sense of peace,
the sense of being able to rely on this person.
You'll feel like that person really knows you and you've
let them in. And you know, so many people they
get stuck. And I know I mentioned this at a
high level earlier, but like so many people get stuck

(41:46):
in the power struggle stage and then they they don't
get the opportunity to think that relationships are more than
just the highs and lows. And that's another really important thing,
you know, for people to hear I find is that
just because you're going through hard time doesn't mean that
that's like the cap of the relationship. Once you can
learn communication and vulnerability in these practices, all of a

(42:09):
sudden the needle moves, like all of a sudden things
change and you get to enrich It's almost like you
level up in a really big way. And so in
the rhythm stage, one of the first things that happens
is like you catch your breath. Quite honestly, like there's
a settling in, there's a fulfillment, there's a contentment because
you're kind of coming from like high high of dating
and honeymoon and then lo lo of the power struggle

(42:29):
by comparison. And then it's like, oh my gosh, we
get to this middle ground, this harmonious space, this space
where we're not having conflict, we almost like preemptively avoid
conflict by just looking out for each other. And this
is the place too. And I think this is another
really important thing. You know, when I was when I
was a kid, and I don't know if you've had
this experience, but when I was a kid, I remember

(42:52):
being like a teenager and dating somebody and maybe even
being in like a pretty serious relationship at like eighteen
and thinking how could this possible? Like how could this
possibly last forever? Like how do I possibly know I
won't get bored in ten years or they won't get bored?
Like sure I like them now, and like we're all
great now, but like inevitably things have to fall apart,

(43:12):
Like how could you know you're not going to change
your mind? And I remember really grappling with that a
lot when I was younger and thinking like how would
you know? But it's because I'd never been out of
a power struggle stage or in anything beyond the power struggle.
And one of the things that happens when you leave
the power struggle and you get into the rhythm is
it's like you've just nurtured something. You've just like cared
so much for something, You've just cared for this relationship

(43:35):
and you've been cared for and you've like developed something
so deep and meaningful that now this idea that you
could just get bored of it, or that they could
get bored of you, or these to feel like superficial ideas,
Like it feels silly to think that, And and it's
because you put the work in and when we put
the work into something and we devote to it, and
we show up and there's all of this growth and
progress and depth. Of course, you don't want to sabotage

(43:59):
or race, just change your mind. The rhythm stage, interestingly enough,
actually is quite short lived after the power struggle. So
usually after the power struggle, we have that that you know,
the power struggle can last forever. People can actually stay
married for a decade. They'll just like live and die
in the power struggle.

Speaker 1 (44:16):
That sounds you don't let that find me.

Speaker 2 (44:21):
And then and then if we do make it out,
though the rhythm stage is short, it's usually another six
months or so, sometimes even three months before we move
into the devotion stage. And the devotion stage is where
we start to really move into long term commitments. We
start thinking about like okay, marriage and children, maybe even
like building a business together. These really like long long

(44:44):
term commitments, because you know, you can get to a
space where it's like there's a you have kids, it's
it's a lifelong commitment for the rest of your life. Right,
So you have this this space, and in the commitment stage,
you'll see that we feel that we're in this rhythm,
we're coming out of the rhythm stage. We know how
to navigate hard things. There's a trust in each other
that we can move through hard things together, and there's
a security in that that then allows people to start

(45:06):
really getting excited, to plan for the future and to
make bigger moves. And that's where we're in that real
devotion stage. Both people will be mutually devoted in this stage.
That's where you get like reciprocity. Both people know they
have this sort of sacred belief in the trust and
harmony together, and that's the space that now people are like, Okay,
we've got this. I know this is the right person.
I can see myself building a whole life with this

(45:27):
person for the long haul. And that's really the prerequisite then,
of course, to the everlasting stage.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
Okay, before we talk about everlasting stage, a couple of
things I want to ask you about Slash stick around
in this space for a bit. I find it's so
interesting what you said by people trying to move from
the power struggle phase into the devotion stage without moving
either through the power struggle stage or the rhythm stage.
This is I have seen this. People are like fighting,

(45:54):
having terrible issues, and they're like let's move in together,
let's have a baby. And I'm like, if you if
this is hard now, imagine how much harder it's going
to be when you have find additional financial pressures, when
you have a living creature that you have to take
care of, like a baby. I just feel like it

(46:15):
just is so difficult to navigate with those like additional struggles.
Speaking of partners, I'm this my uncle.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
Where you can come in.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
When we get back to what I was saying, like, yeah,
if you think, if you think things are hard now,
like when you have additional financial pressure, when you see
each other every single day and you haven't learned how
to fight yet because you live together or have a
baby together, like, it's going to get so much worse
and so much harder.

Speaker 2 (46:47):
One hundred percent. And honestly, exactly what you said is
like one of the truest things. So so many times
I would see people stuck in the power struggle, don't
know how to navigate it. They're a couple of years
in and they go, Okay, let's have a baby. And honestly,
it's almost like trying to put it a sense of
novelty on something that requires vulnerability. It's like, let's do

(47:08):
a new, big thing together. And I would see countless
countless times, quite honestly, couples who would come in and
they had, you know, because they obviously ran a busy
practice back in the day for quite a while. And
people come in and they say, Tice, we're here to
do counseling. We've broken up, we had a baby, and
you know, we are a couple of years into clearly

(47:29):
what was the power struggle, and they had a baby,
hoping it would be the save all, and instead it
broke them down right and broke them up. And so
you kind of repair those things at that point for
sure by learning the tools and the power struggle stage
that you need to. But so often people have no
idea that there's different stages of relationships and be think
that they're going to solve it by just adding new

(47:51):
things to do instead of actually navigating the core problems.
And so yeah, I just absolutely could not agree more
with that.

Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah, Okay, we're going to take one wall sho upbreak
before we talk about the final stage, the everlasting stage,
So stay with us, will be right back. Okay, So
you're at the devotion stage. You know, you're very happy
you're committed, maybe you're engaged in it. You know you're engaged,

(48:20):
and you feel like this is the one forever. There
is another stage, which is the everlasting stage. And my
question for you is, does everyone from the devotion stage
get to the everlasting stage or why would people in
the devotion stage still choose to break up or have
a breakup occur to them before they get to everlasting.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
Such a good question. So I would say the only
major reason that I've ever seen people break up once
in the devotion stage is because of some sort of
external event that's extremely painful that essentially causes an identity
crisis in one or both people, and now where everything
they built sort of gets destroyed. So it sounds very dramatic,
and but honestly, once you're at the devotion stage, almost

(49:04):
every person ends up in the everlasting stage. They start
acting these things out. But let's say, for example, that
one person and I'll tell a story. There's some sad ones.
You know, if people who I saw over the years
who were in the devotion stage and then broke up
and and and you know, in one particular case, this
is one of the less sad ones. But in one

(49:25):
particular case, one person lost both of their parents in
a year, right both their the less sad one, that's
the less sad. Oh my god, that's a tragic one.
I know. Sorry, I should have said, like a trigger
warning ahead of time, it's sad, but truly, like you know,
And what happened is that person then spiraled into this
really deep depression and then they ended up in a

(49:47):
space where they weren't showing up for the relationship. They
were kind of angry, they had a chip on their shoulder.
They didn't know how to communicate what they needed from
this place of depression. They knew how to communicate and
navigate other things from earlier, but in this depth of
what they were experiencing, they were like, what what am
I experiencing? What am I feeling? And so I actually
ended up working with this client who came to me
to heal from a breakup after that, and they didn't

(50:09):
know about the life cycle of relationships. They didn't know
about how to process grief or there's sort of a
lot in there. But those types of situations where there's
something really tragic and extreme that causes this person to
not even know how to navigate their own lives and
then they can't show up for the relationship, and then
we can backslide into, you know, back in the power
struggle and then break up from there if there's something

(50:32):
really big. If there's not something really big, Generally, once
you're in the devotion stage, people move into the everlasting stage.
It's just about do we do the work necessary. Even
people who have commitment fears, and you think, okay, there's
this big fear of commitment, would that be something that
causes people to backslide Even people with big commitment fears, generally,

(50:53):
at the point where you've learned to navigate things, talk
things out, hash things through really well, those commitment fears,
I sent actually don't get a chance to see daylight
over time because you're showing up with such a commitment
to the relationship to get out of the power struggle
stage that you're learning like, oh, commitment is scary because
I'm scared of being trapped in a relationship that doesn't
meet my needs. And when you know how to navigate

(51:15):
your needs and talk about them and then you're fulfilled
in the relationship, people's commitment fear just happens to go
away at the same time because commitment fears are rooted
in the fear of actually being trapped and not being
able to get your needs in met. So once we
get into the devotion stage, you're extremely likely to move
into the everlasting stage. It's sort of like the inevitable
next step and the right of passage that moves you

(51:35):
from there into the everlasting stage is all about, in particular,
acting out the things that you were devoted to. So
the dev devotion stage, you'll sort of talk about them, I,
you know, share ideas. We should have kids, we should
you know, move into this place, we should get married,
we should do all these things. But what moves you
into the everlasting stage is then that you're actually actioning

(51:58):
them out. You have your first you know, you have
your wedding, You do all these things, and so now
the everlasting stage is actually about building and creating a
life together, and it's marked by things like, you know,
merging your finances, having conversations about how you want to
invest your money in the long run, or what things
you want to spend your time doing, or who's going

(52:19):
to be, you know, taking care of the kids, what
kind of parents do we want to be. It's marked
by like these types of conversations that are much more
rooted in how do we build what life? Are we
co creating? What does this look like? And really moving
from that space in particular where you see you're definitely
in that everlasting stage exactly.

Speaker 1 (52:37):
I also feel like I'm thinking now about those those
like the snares, like the things that grab people and
stop them from getting to devotion and everlasting, and I
feel like, also that might be a requirement. I don't
know if this is something you found as well to
get through something that shifts your identity or shifts you
as people that you still are like, well that's okay
and we can grow through it. And I was like

(52:58):
thinking about them, I was like, you know, maybe not
being able to have kids would be like a really
big one that you have to decide, like can I
do this on Like it's just really you know, that
would be really difficult, Like having a bit of like
a midl like crisis. I'm sure happens to a lot
of people as well, like losing like a career that
like you were devoted to a natural disaster. Like I'm

(53:21):
thinking about all these things and I'm like, probably because
they changed you and maybe they put you back into
that stage as well. And maybe that's why you see
I'm thinking about like kind of my parents' friends now
and like my like older friends, and these situations where
it's like we something terrible happened or something so large

(53:43):
happened that we actually came out of it as a
different person, but some of them still get back together
and they go back through this entire thing.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
So it's like exactly, I'm thinking about.

Speaker 1 (53:53):
Like two instances in particular where I'm like, oh, this
terrible like or not even it wasn't terri what was
just earth shattering like it happened, and then but they
ended up getting back together and it was so interesting,
like they went back through all these stages and they
got married again and like all these things. I'm like, wow,
it's it's so it's so fascinating.

Speaker 2 (54:16):
So you just nailed it. So that's exactly what it is.
So you can have these things and the root of
what actually can cause because because nobody really breaks up
in the devotion stage, but we can backside back into
the power struggle, and the things that would cause us
to backside back to the power struggle is if you
think of the power struggle as being rooted in our
ability to communicate our needs, share our fears, open up

(54:36):
vulnerably about our feelings, learn each other through that space,
learn to navigate those things collectively. Then what happens is
if there's something just like you said, a natural disaster
or somebody not being able to have kids, one hundred
percent of these things, it's actually rooted in one or
both people having an identity crisis that then causes them.
Even though you originally did the work, it changed who

(54:56):
you were as a person, exactly like you said, because
you have an identity crisis, and now you're relegated, just
by nature, you're relegated back into the power struggle stage
because now you have new fears, Now you have new wounds,
now you have new needs in the relationship because you
became a new person. The situation or event changed you
enough that the things you learned about the person in
the power struggle stage in your relationship have dramatically changed

(55:18):
because they have changed dramatically, and so now you have
to go back through this relearning stage, relearning to navigate
talking about the new fears, the new flaws, and if
you do that, you'll then move back through the stages
then you progress again. But if we don't and if
we don't know how to navigate ourselves, sort of like
that client dimension too, fell into that deep depression and

(55:38):
came to me after they had already broken up with
their ex and they weren't looking to get back together
at that point because it was quite a while after
the fact, but they change. They didn't know who they
were in that depression, and so they then didn't know
how to say what they needed. They didn't know how
to be vulnerable about what they were feeling or how
to express it or explain it, and so they ultimately
had to do a lot of healing and work within

(55:59):
themselves to then be able to come back and be
functional for a new relationship as a new person.

Speaker 1 (56:07):
Yeah, this is so fascinating. I could talk about this
all day. I want to ask you like two final
questions though they've just kind of come up for me.
I'm like, listening to this, I'm like, oh, what would
the listeners want to know? Like what are they thinking?
The first thing I'm thinking is can you skip any
of the stages? Because there are people who seem to
really get to devotion really quickly.

Speaker 2 (56:28):
Great question, so you can speed them up, but you
don't skip, so you know, you'll generally see for example,
securely attach people who have like a very secure upbringing
or who are are earned secure before getting into a relationship.
They can move into the dating quick quickly move through
the dating. They know what they want, they're a little
more clear. They might move from dating into honeymoon quickly.

(56:50):
And because securely attach people with healthy habits going into relationships,
they naturally talk about their needs from the jump. They're
a little more vulnerable earlier on, and they're quite intentional.
They have healthy tools already that equipped them to navigate conflict.
You'll see a very short power struggle stage. Secure people
still go through power struggle stage, they just have a
shorter version of it. And then if you're looking okay,

(57:12):
let's say somebody made a commitment within two months, so
they went from dating into honeymoon. Honeymoon lasted a period
of time like let's say a year after the fact,
and then power struggle maybe another three months. Then you're
in the rhythm another couple months and you're in the
devotion quite quickly. So you can see like a shortened
time horizon for sure, especially if we date right, if
we have really healthy habits for conflict early on if

(57:34):
we set ourselves up for success by having harder conversations
more vulnerably earlier and setting the tone that way. And
so you can see a shortened version, but people will
still navigate each of the stages, and even people who
get married and seem to be married from a secure base.
So let's say somebody for like religious reasons. I have

(57:56):
a friend, for example, and he proposed to his wife
I think around six months, and you know, and they
got married and they have a very healthy, loving relationship.
But it was a quick quick turnaround, right, proposed in
six months, got married quickly, and even him people in
these types of situations they got married early, they had health,
like a really healthy foundation, but they still had their

(58:18):
version of a power struggle stage at a point in
time right when they moved in together and got married.
They had to like navigate it for a minute and
have the harder conversations. So you'll still see each of
the stages that we have. You can just see a
smaller time horizon for different external reasons at times. And
of course that means that part of like the hack
and the trick is you want to get your you know,

(58:38):
you're healing done right ahead of time, so you're ready
to date in a more secure way. Because it just
makes the entire life cycle of a relationship so much easier.
And again it's part of the reason that statistically like
statistics show that roughly fifty percent of the population is
securely attached, although that seems to sort of be on
a downward trend, but when you see clearly attached people,

(59:00):
they also report being in the long longest lasting relationships
and being the most fulfilled and securely attached people. They
they tend to when they get into relationships, they say
in them right, because they they they're well prepared for
these stages earlier on, and so.

Speaker 1 (59:15):
They also choose better early on as well, because they like,
I like being about that, and I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
Like because they're not just going after like the emotionally
unavailable person, you know what I mean, they ve exactly
it all comes together.

Speaker 2 (59:30):
And they they date really well, like they date with intention,
and they won't put up with much bs. Right, if
somebody is treating them in a bad way, they're like, sorry, no,
I don't I don't put up with this. And so
because they do that, they set themselves up for so
much success in the power struggle. So the power struggle
is in this big, drawn out lasting thing. It's this
sort of short, little blip in the radar that's like
a little tiny roadbump, and they keep it moving.

Speaker 1 (59:52):
Yeah, Okay, I have so many other questions that I
want to ask you, but like we we need to
wrap up the episode. My final question is the one
that we ask every single guest who comes on the show.
I think I've actually asked you this before, but I'm
going to ask you again, which is, what is the
one piece of advice you wish you had in your
twenties that has nothing to do with what we talked

(01:00:12):
about today.

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Oh my gosh, it's so funny, Juma, because as soon
as you said it, I was like, I remembered exactly
what I would say, which was what you asked me
the last time, and I said to be compassionate towards yourself.
And I had this like flashback moment. Yeah, but you
know what I would say in my twenties, and I'll
actually just say what helped me the most of my
twenties is, you know, I was somebody who was like

(01:00:35):
I grew up in chaos, and I was fearful, avoidant,
and I had all these like wounds and all of it.
And I had a lot of what you would call
injustice this as a kid, like lots of hard things
and lots of really you know, pretty traumatic situations and
things like that. And when I was until my very
early twenties, I held on too that really tight. I
was like, all these bad things happened to me, nobody understands, nobody,

(01:00:59):
and it was my story of myself. And I went
through a sort of personal rock bottom in my life
where I was like, oh my god, nobody's gonna save me.
I have to save me. I have to show up.
And me holding on to all these hard things and
then justifying that I should numb out or hide from things,
or be angry or be you know, carry my herd

(01:01:20):
around and have a chip on my shoulder. I'm only
hurting me when I do that. And you know, one
of the most pivotal things that I did that I,
you know, thank God for, is I was like, oh,
I have to realize that my personal responsibility for life
is my freedom, and it's not my fault that things
happened to me, but it is my responsibility to change them,
and only I can do that. And I really poured

(01:01:42):
into like learning and researching and doing the work. And obviously,
like everybody who's listening to the show is learning and
researching and you know, and setting the tone to do that.
And I think pouring into really doing the work. If
you come from like a hard background of relationships or
tough things, it doesn't have to be your story for
the whole rest of your life. It can literally be like, Okay, great,
I'm choosing to take responsibility for my own conditioning even

(01:02:05):
though I didn't choose it, and work to rewire, work
to recondition, work to heal. And I really think that
that's like the greatest gift that people can give to themselves.
And it just opens up the world for like a
future on your terms going.

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
Forward, and it is freedom the way, and it is
freedom and it's for freedom. Well, thank you again for
coming on. I'm going to make sure that we leave
all your links to your school and your courses and
you and your YouTube, like every way and which way
and which place you can find Taste. I will make
sure that you can find her because I love what

(01:02:36):
you do. And I love your work and how you
explain things, so thank you again. As always, you can
follow us on Instagram at that Psychology Podcast. Make sure
that you are following along. It's the middle of December
guest month and we have so many other fantastic guests
that I cannot wait for you guys to hear from,
So if you're not already following us, you don't want
to miss listening to them and hearing from them as well.

(01:02:59):
But until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle
to yourself, and we will talk very very soon.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
M

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Jemma Sbeghen

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