December 19, 2025 • 59 mins
Getting diagnosed with ADHD as an adult can feel like both a relief and a reckoning. Suddenly your past makes so much more sense… but now you’re faced with learning a whole new way of managing your brain, your time, your relationships and your self-worth.
In this episode, I’m joined by Chris Wang, founder and CEO of Shimmer, who was diagnosed with ADHD at 28. Together we unpack what ADHD really looks like in your twenties, including:
- The three ADHD subtypes and why women are so often missed
- How late diagnosis can completely rewrite your identity (in a good way)
- Why traditional productivity advice often fails ADHD brains
- The role of urgency, novelty and accountability
- What actually is rejection sensitivity dysphoria (RSD)?
- What ADHD–ADHD relationships can look like vs ADHD–neurotypical dynamics?
If you’ve ever wondered, “Do I just suck at being an adult, or is my brain wired differently?”, this episode is for you.
Find Shimmer HERE
Follow Chris HERE
Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg
Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast
For business: psychologyofyour20s@gmail.com
The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor or a licensed psychologist.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello everybody. I'm Jemma Spake and welcome back to the
Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through
the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and
what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back
(00:25):
to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners,
old listeners. Wherever you are in the world, it is
so great to have you here. Back for another episode
as we, of course break down the Psychology of Your twenties. Today,
we're going to talk about ADHD. Getting diagnosed with ADHD
as an adult can feel like both a revelation and
(00:47):
a bit of a reckoning. It's this moment when everything
about how you've moved through the world probably makes a
lot more sense, but you also now have to learn
all these new ways to manage. This is exactly the
experience of today's guest, Chris Wang. She's the founder of Shimmer.
It's an ADHD coaching platform that has helped thousands of
(01:08):
adults better understand their brains. And she herself was diagnosed
in her twenties after years of feeling like she was
kind of doing life wrong. And the thing is her
story is actually not a unique one. I've heard from
so many of you who have had the same experience,
been through the same process. So today I wanted to
(01:31):
talk to her about practical strategies for managing your time,
energy focus, managing ADHD in your twenties, especially when traditional
productivity advice maybe hasn't ever worked for you. I also
want to explore love and dating with ADHD, why relationships
can feel so intense, so confusing or addictive, how to
(01:53):
handle romantic rejection but also just rejection in general, and
how to feel like you're not too much in a
world that is asking everybody to be a lot smaller.
I love this conversation, so without further ado, let's get
into it. Chris Wang, welcome to the show. Thank you
so much for coming on.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Thank you so much for having me. You're an absolute icon.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I'm sick. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Can you
tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and what
you do. I feel like I gave a little introduction before,
but I'm like, you can say it in your own words,
in the better words. Probably.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
I don't know if it's better, but I'm Chris. I'm
the co founder and CEO of Shimmer. I am also
a late diagnos adhder, so I was diagnosed with ADHD
when I was twenty eight, which I know we'll get
into that a little bit, but it's been a whirlwind
of a journey navigating that diagnosis while creating Shimmer, which
is a behavioral support platform, and as of date we've
(02:52):
done seventy five thousand coaching sessions, which is really exciting
just thinking about how many people have with ADHD have
been a part of our journey, and many of them
are late diagnosed as well. And the last piece is
along the journey this is very ADHD as well. Usually
things kind of unfold. I have become an ADHD creator
as well, so I started off by posting just My
(03:16):
first series was ADHD Girl Hacks, so posting hacks that
I've gleaned through my coaching journey and also those of
the thousands of other folks who have gone through our
platform but since then have done ADHD goal works, adh
gold Dates and ADHD goal fields. So I know we'll
get into tips and things like that afterwards, but it's
been a little bit of a journey since that diagnosis.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
I'm really excited to hear about ADHD girld dates. That's
like something I'm particularly interested in hearing. But this definitely
won't surprise you. It did surprise me how many people
reach out to me with a similar story of like,
I had all of these difficulties well actually, like sometimes
(04:00):
even a lack of difficulties when I was at school,
and then suddenly I became an adult, and you know,
all the things that people had ignored or that I
like worked really hard to mask, like kind of came
to the surface and here I was at twenty seven,
twenty eight, twenty nine, like basically discovering a new aspect
of my identity and of how I operate. Can you
(04:22):
tell us a little bit about your story and maybe
like what it felt like, Oh, how it was growing up?
Did you feel different and when you maybe realized that
like there was a label for this or a series
of symptoms that could kind of explain it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So I will first preface by saying that people's AHD
looks really different, and I'm glad you're asking for individual stories,
because I think sometimes it's very easy to hear a
story and not hear yourself in it, or hear a
story and do hear yourself in it and feel like
you either don't have it HD or have it HD.
So I think it's really important to learn about the symptoms,
(04:58):
learn about the different ways the symptoms can coexist with
each other, and also go through that process yourself. And
I also will want to say if your listeners haven't
really dug into ADHD. There's also three types of ADHD,
and I'll share which one I am as well. But
there's the hyperactive impulsive ADHD, which are folks who as
a kid were kind of bouncing off of wall, super talkative,
(05:20):
probably getting into trouble, and as adults generally won't look
as disruptive, but maybe it's chatty, maybe it's more internally
being more hyperactive, and so that's kind of on the
hyperactive impulsive side. And then there's the inattentive side, which
is the other type that generally a lot of the
times women will have and girls will have which a
lot of the times when you're younger, will be internally
(05:42):
presenting as well. So those are the daydreamers, the ones
who maybe as an adult struggle to follow conversations or
get lost in your own daydreams in your head, and
so that inattentive ADHD will look really different from the
hyperactive ADHDER. And the third type, which is the type
that I am fortunately or unfortunately, is the combined type.
(06:02):
So that's when you have symptoms from both sides. And
so when you meet someone who has ADHD, they could
look really different if they just fall within those three buckets,
but also if they have other sorts of intersectionalities and
co occurrences with other mental health conditions. So I just
wanted to preface that. And so for me, I have
all the most of the symptoms, but specifically the ones
(06:25):
that were the most salient. When I was a kid,
was definitely on the hyperactive side. I was super talkative.
I was constantly distracting people around me. I was always
being told I was too loud or just to sit
down or be quiet, just constantly in the way. I
think as I grew up, I've been thinking about this
(06:46):
a lot. I think I've heard a lot of stories
of folks who their self confidence and anxiety just really
increases over time, especially as girls. And so there's actually
the stat that people with ADHD here twenty thousand more
negative messages by the time that they're ten years old
in comparison to their non ADHD peers, which is pretty significant.
(07:08):
And you can imagine, especially if you don't have the
right support system or other ways that you feel confidence,
that that would yield just a lower self perception, lower goals,
and just the way that you move through life is
going to be really different. And so getting support and
getting at least awareness and acknowledgment that you are different
and you will navigate things differently as a kid, I
(07:29):
think is super super important. I was lucky in that
a mix of I think being Asian and having a
really strong emphasis of my parents on grades and being smart.
I did get good grades and that helped me build
a sense of confidence when I was younger. So even
though I was getting kicked out of class all the
(07:50):
time I got suspended, the impact on me as a
kid actually wasn't as strong. And you'll hear all sorts
of different stories, I think for me when we think
about diagnosis, the impact didn't get really strong for me
until I became an adult and all of those kind
of structures and goals kind of fell off. It was
actually when I first started my business, and I when
(08:11):
we were in the pandemic and so everything was online
and I was not able to get a lot of
that visual and physical stimulation from other people. And then two,
I was an entrepreneur and not only was I creating
structures for myself, but I was expected to create structures
for other people as well, And that for me was
when everything started kind of crumbling. And it took me
(08:34):
that long to actually realize that all of these symptoms
related to were related to ADHD. And a big part
of that also came from my cultural upbringing of not
talking about mental health and not talking about ADHD since
I was a kid. And there's I think it's called
like the rule of seven, where is a marketing thing
where a consumer needs to see like seven ats. Yeah, yeah,
(08:56):
I feel like it's kind of similar with my ADHD.
I had a friend told me, tell me maybe I
have ADHD because he has AHD. I had Instagram for
you page was getting at me, and so I really
just started seeing it from here and there. So it
was a very nonlinear journey to finally thinking, oh, maybe
it's this and then once then you go down the
rabbit hole. Or I went down the rabbit hole and
(09:17):
started researching, and that's what led me to my diagnosis.
So again, like as I said, I think everyone. I've
heard so many stories by now, like everyone's story looks
so different and depending on your culture and your other intersectionalities,
and also just the cards that you were really dealt
with in the support that you had throughout your life.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
It's so interesting, like going back to what you said
about the negative messaging that kids with ADHD will get,
but also how some of them are actually highly functional
in schooling environments, like when you said that you got
you got such great grades. Like I'm thinking about my
best friend who also got to like a diagnosis for ADHD,
(09:59):
and I remember sitting with her and her mom doing
the test. Do you know what I'm talking about, Like
the scaling thing, like it's like maybe twenty pages long, yeah,
and her mom being like you really didn't struggle with that.
You really didn't struggle, Like no, that doesn't describe you
at all, And Aaron being like, no, but I like
(10:19):
you saw the outside of that. This was the inside
of that, and how hard it was. And also like
you know, her day was so organized, she had like
twenty different activities per day. There was always something to
keep her preoccupied, but also a structure within which you
know it was so routine focused. My question around that
is do you see a lot of people be like,
(10:43):
I cannot possibly have this disorder because I don't look
a certain way or because you know, I'm not just
I'm not in this description and all this idea of
what this is.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yeah, one hundred percent. I think one thing that is
that woman here a lot is that you're too smart
to have ADHD, and that happens as an adult, happens
as a kid, and ADHD has nothing to do with intelligence.
There are people who are who are have higher IQs
with ADHD and lower. It doesn't it's not correlated. And
(11:16):
also like with your friend, that's something I hear too
as well. There's just one example I always give. If
you ask someone with ADHD how often do you lose
their keys? They often say I lose it multiple times
a day, or they say I never lose my keys,
and you say, okay, well why they say, because I
have this very elaborate system and built the entire system
as to why they don't lose their keys. So both
(11:37):
those people have ADHD, it's just that they've dealt with
that differently. So what intelligence? This one is definitely one
and another one is women who have presented with inattentive
symptoms because they weren't in the way of their teacher
or their parent, and they oftentimes had been told that
they don't have ADHD because we haven't really understood until
(11:58):
recently what that DIES diagnosis looks like in woman, what
it looks like in girls. And so that's changing now
and a lot of the times now with millennials, as
parents knowing more about ADHD, being able to see this
in their kid and then being able to advocate for
their kid with their doctors or their or their teachers
has been really helpful in this journey. Like we see
(12:19):
a lot of members come to us either who were
diagnosed because their kid was diagnosed and just generally millennials
or people the other way around who they were diagnosed,
and then they're like, I'm starting to see these symptoms
in my kid. How do I best support them? How
do I make sure that they don't go through the
thing that the experience that I went through?
Speaker 1 (12:39):
And I think it's so interesting because I like, I'm
sure you've seen this. There's all these articles as like
everybody has ADHD now, blah blah blah blah Blahyeah, actually
let me before I say what I'm gonna say. What
are your thoughts on those popecastle those kind of articles
or headlines.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, so I think it's a little bit problematic because
but I get where it comes from. When you hear
people say they're symptoms out of context, it sounds like, oh, yeah,
I lose my keys too, right, Like I also stub
my toe on the chair, I always. I also struggle
to get organized, I struggle to focus. So these are
all universal symptoms, and especially in the inattention economy today,
(13:21):
people are feeling those more strongly, and so I think
that there's a couple of things here. Like one, people
with ADHD face those symptoms way more severely and every
single day, all day. And imagine if you can imagine
you feeling that once in a while. Imagine if someone
was feeling it all day and it just becomes like,
let's say you have a plan to go to a
(13:42):
meeting that day, and then you end up spending your
entire morning going back and forth for getting like seventeen things,
and like what that does to you when you arrive
at at that meeting and you're not confident, You feel
like you're dumb. And then you botch the meeting, and
so there's just so many effects that are just they
compound on each other. And so I think what people
don't understand is the compounding effect of the severity and
the frequency. Because the other thing about the ADHD diagnosis
(14:06):
is that you have to have impairment in your life
for you to actually get that diagnosis. So that's actually
part of the diagnosis criteria and has to show up
before you're twelve. That's how the DSM five is currently structured.
So that's one thing, and then the other thing. I
think that just from a human perspective, I feel like
if you can resonate with people, instead of saying everyone
has ADHD, I would challenge people to think, Okay, I
(14:29):
can resonate with that feeling, and I imagine if they're
feeling this all the time and way more intensely and
it's impacting their life, instead of dismissing them through that resonance,
it should we should take more an approach of empathy
of like, okay, well I can understand a little bit.
I can only imagine how hard this is for you.
And so taking that, I think that mindset shift is
something that a lot of folks, especially on the Internet,
(14:51):
I would challenge them, as you trying to think of
it in that way.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
I also just think like anytime I see those articles,
like that's just factually encorrec like not everybody has ADHD,
like and I think it's one of those things where
there's a specific kind of person who like makes everybody's
health their business, and like everybody's lives their business. And
(15:14):
I think it's especially like an older generation who are like,
I don't want to talk about this, like everybody is
the same, Why can't it just be like as it
once was? And when they hear stories about ADHD and
the media or in the news, it's like when you
hear about plane crashes, right, it makes you believe that
they're a lot more common. It makes you believe that
this is going to be this is actually a problem,
(15:36):
and they don't actually have all the full information, Like
there's all these cognitive biases that are making it seem
like a like a a fake epidemic, and it must
must be like such a struggle as you know someone
with ADHD yourself to be like, you don't know what
I went through to get this diagnosis. It wasn't like
I just went in and said I think I have
this and okay, now give me the late people like,
(16:00):
can you talk a little bit more about how that
diagnosis maybe actually helped you understand yourself better and maybe
it was actually, like, as you said, a long time coming.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah. So I think one of the biggest things for
me and is for a lot of our members, is
that pre diagnosis, everything about you that you didn't know
yet was related to ADHD. You just attribute it to
your personality or you attribute it to you as a human,
as like your core human. So for example, I used
I always just thought I was a bad kid. I
(16:33):
was like, I'm a bad kid, I'm a bad influence.
It makes sense that other my kid, my friend's parents
don't want me to hang out with them. Like I
didn't even question these things. They were just facts about me.
And now having this diagnosis, being able to look back
and say, like, Okay, I wasn't a bad kid, Like
these were the things that I was struggling with. This
(16:53):
is why, and this is probably what I needed in
the time to be able to be supported. But so
going forward, so I like, I'm same with the coaching
methodologic gy. I'm very future oriented. I think it's important
to understand the past, and sometimes it helps untangle those
things to rewrite your identity. But for me going forward,
it's also about understanding what comes from my ADHD so
(17:14):
I can better communicate around it and communicate with myself
so that I don't feel like a bad person. But
I also communicate with the people around me to have
the right language so it doesn't sound like excuses or
I'm just like, oh, I'm just I'm just always late.
I can't do anything about it. So it's not about that.
It's more of like, Okay, well, I just want you
(17:35):
to know that because of my ADHD symptoms, it's hard
for me to be on time. These are some things
that I'm trying to do to mitigate that is, these
are some things that if it's not too much for you,
maybe maybe you can do this to help me with
this process as well. And so it really gives you
that language, and that makes it especially in a partnership
about like you me and then there's ADHD. Right, Like,
(17:55):
we're talking about how we can solve for this thing,
and I'm taking responsibility for my part, but I'm also
asking as a partner if you can be able to
support me in that instead of just being tied to
an identity that you're not sure what is you and
what is HD. So I think for me, that's been
one of the biggest pieces. And then I think the
other piece is around just understanding what my strengths and
(18:20):
weaknesses are and with the lens of ADHD, not so
I can fix all of the weaknesses is, but more
so that I can put myself in situations where I'm
leveraging my strengths more. And that's been the main part
of the journey that I've been on with coaching, and
a lot of our members are on with coaching as
well as really that reframe to place yourself in better
(18:42):
situations and communicate better rather than just thinking, oh, there's
all these things that are bad about me that I
need to fix.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Well, this kind of brings me to this proactive approach
to ADHD that you talk about speak me through this
specific perspective, because as I understand it, you know, we've
gone back to the history of like what it would
maybe have been like to be a kid who has
an undiagnosed ADHD and your cold a nuisance and you're cold,
annoying and as you said, you know, parents don't want
(19:11):
their kids to hang out with you like you know
your skold it all the time. Probably when you get
an ADHD diagnosis, it would be very easy for you
to think of it as a weakness. You like to
think of it as a as a strength. Took me
through that a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeah, I think it's a It's such a fine balance
and it's a really big sticking point in the ADHD community.
I think on one end, there's the extremely deficit driven
approach of I have ADHD, I have all of these
things that are wrong with me, and I need to
fix all of them. That is not the mental model
I ascribe to. But also on the other end, there's
(19:50):
this superpower model, which I think that borders on toxic
positivity when you say that ADHD as a whole is
a super is a superpower and and a lot of
adhds in the community have an allergic reaction to that
with good reason, because it undermines the support that is
required for people with ADHD. If everyone just believes that
(20:10):
we're all superheroes because we have ADHD, then we won't
get the right support, the right accommodations that we need.
From when we're a child to when we're adults. So
I paint the two extremes because there are a lot
of people who sit on each end of that extreme.
I think it's important to take a balanced approach, and
it's the approach that we take at Shimmer as well,
where you do have challenges as a person with ADHD,
(20:32):
and those challenges are important to be aware of, but
it doesn't mean you need to solve all of them.
You don't need to sit there saying I have bad memory.
I need to solve that problem. I need to train
my brain to have better memory, because I'm never going
to have great memory. That's just not going to happen
for me. And that's okay, I accept that. And instead
it's contextual. So maybe I don't want to be in
(20:54):
a job where I'm playing Jeopardy or whatever. We ever quiet, Yeah, yeah,
exactly right, And so there's other ways to approach it.
But then on the other hand, people with ADG and
all people, not just people with ADCH, but people with
ADCH don't often realize this is that they have strengths.
And there are strengths that are common for people with
ADHD around creativity, around nonlinear thinking. Even impulsivity can be
(21:19):
something that is positive, like for entrepreneurship. Sometimes you do
need that impulsivity to be able to take risks that
other people won't take. So every kind of weakness oftentimes
has like a strength on the other side. And so
I think it's important to take a balanced view to
who you are as a whole. And then on top
of that, I think a big part of our approach,
and one of the first things I realized needed to
(21:42):
happen as an ADHDER is before even doing all that,
you really need to define where you want to go
as a person. And people with ADHD have impaired prospective memory,
which is basically looking into the future. We often just
spin our wheels faster and faster in no particular direction,
which again is probably relatable to a lot of people.
(22:02):
And so the first thing we do in coaching is
help people think about where they want to go in
the future. And so for some people that'll be a
really hard activity because if you've never thought of it,
and for some people it'll be easier. So once you
define that, then it becomes easier to say, do we
really need to fix all the challenges that you have
to get there, or do we maybe need to like
(22:22):
switch gears a little bit, or are there certain strengths
that you can be able to draw and to move
you closer to that future that you envision. And so
both of those two things, in terms of looking into
the future and then taking steps to get there that's
more aligned with your strengths and challenges together creates an
entire system that helps you just live a life that
you're more calm, happy, fulfilled, feeling well, whatever you want
(22:46):
to define as your kind of objective function.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
It just sounds like a very realistic approach, Like there's
no like, there's no extremes in that of like either
this is a superpower or like stomp out every single
thing about yourself that you don't like, which, yeah, personally,
I think is like, you know, the middle ground is
often the best in terms of these things, Like the
(23:09):
balance of things is always where you find like the
most piece. I guess, which is what you're.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Saying exactly, And I think that, I mean, we all
know how social media and algorithms work. Actually, I recently
listened to a Mel Robbins episode that had research that
was so interesting that talked about how all of the
perspectives on the Internet were actually mostly written by like
ten percent of people, and those ten percent of people
generally fall in extremes. We are all scared to go
(23:35):
against what we think is the popular opinion, so we
see those opinions and we decide to ascribe to one
of them, and that's how a lot of polarization happens.
And I think within the ADHD community, this polarization is
also at least we all perceive it to be happening,
but I think there are probably more people in the
middle than we think.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah, Okay, we're gonna take a short break, but when
we return, we're going to talk some ADHD friendly strategies
for work, for love for life, So stay with us.
So I had this listener reach out to me the
other day and she was like, I really want to
(24:15):
know how I can manage my executive dysfunction as somebody
with ADHD, and I kind of have to be like,
I don't really know, but let me get back to you.
Let me ask someone who does know. So one of
some of the strategies that you've used to help yourself
with deadlines, with focus, with burnout in your career.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah, so the first half of my answer is going
to be an unpopular one because people always want hacks,
But it is so important to first identify where exactly
you are going and because you might not need to
fix the thing that you think you need to fix.
So I will first say that and get that out
of the way, even though nobody will listen to me
because people always want the hacks. So for me, some
(24:59):
of the things that have been and the most helpful
is first one is the reframe that not everything needs,
not all the solutions need to come from me doing
something different internally. It a lot of it, and it's
easier is if you set up your life to be different,
because then it's a gift that keeps on giving. So
(25:19):
that might be setting up your environment in a certain
way that is conducive for you to be able to focus.
It might be having a specific room in your house
where you're working in another room where you never work
in and then that helps trigger your brain into I'm
in work mode and I'm not in work mode. And
it might be having certain systems that your whole family
(25:41):
knows about. So one that is really common is people
who work from home, which is a lot of people
now when they're writing, they will put a little sign
on their door where their kid and their partner all
know that this means like I'm in deep writing mode,
and so they don't get that distraction. So again, all
of these I'm giving like little examples because it all
comes from working back from what your challenges and what
your goal is. So if these things don't work for you,
(26:04):
I would not also abandon them. You need to think
about how you can implement that better in your life.
And so that kind of brings me to another one
that has been so helpful for me is learning what
your motivators are and then injecting that into your work. So,
for example, for me, novelty and accountability are two of
(26:25):
my strongest motivators. So when I can't get something done,
I ask myself, Okay, what is a way that I
can put accountability into it? Do I have to say
with my co founder that in our next working session
he needs to check in with me on this, Like
that's accountability or for novelty, do I've been wanting to
do this thing for a long time and I can't
do it. Do I need to do it on Canva
(26:46):
and put it in pink instead of doing it on
em now and then just move it later on. So
really understanding first what are your motivators, and that you
can figure out by looking backwards at let's say a
week or a day. If you can't think back at
a week and think about what are the moments of
the day that you were most excited and most motivated
and think through what was there for you. So the
(27:09):
most common ones are novelty, interest, passion, accountability, urgency. Those
are some of the ones that are common for people
with ADHD, but you might discover that there are other
motivators for you as well. And then the third thing
I will say that has been so helpful for me
is energy management. So people with ADG have generally a
(27:30):
late set circuit rhythm. They sleep, want to sleep later,
and work up later. We also have more erratic energy
bursts throughout the day, and for a long time I
tried to fight against that and just you have these
narratives in your head of like I should be able
to be as consistent as everyone else, like why can't
I work from nine till five? And then there's these
other days where you just work for like twelve fourteen
(27:52):
dollars straight you knock out like a whole weeks of work,
and then the next day you can't do your nine
to five and you wonder why, well, because you've just
knocked out a whole week of work the day before.
So really learning what your energy looks like, what times
of the day you are energized, and maybe putting deep
work during that time, what times of the day you
are in maybe more of a crash boat, and maybe
(28:13):
you want to do a walk outside because you know
that that really brings you up. And also, if you're
a woman, oftentimes, depending on your hormonocycle, your energy won't
look the same throughout the month. So that awareness again
and then matching that awareness with what sort of tasks
go in there. And so the meta kind of message
here is really figuring out how you can work with
(28:34):
your brain and body instead of fighting against it, because
oftentimes we fight against it because we think that we
need to do things in a way that we've just
seen other people do. And when we listen to how
other people like the tips that other people put out there,
they're generally from people who are neurotypical who and it
generally is the average thing that works for everyone. And
if you have ADHD, you're generally not super average.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Yeah, probably not. I want to talk about that. Adds
one word you mentioned, which was urgency, And yeah, how
urgency plays a role in ADHD personally? I feel like
I've read a lot of research that like the urgency
effect is a lot stronger. So people with ADHD often
(29:18):
prefer working under a tight deadline. How do you how
do you suggest people manage that when they also, you know,
want to be proactive about not being stressed right up
to the time that something is due, or doing something
the best that they can do it rather than the
fastest they can do it. How do they kind of
navigate that like the complexity of like wanting to do
(29:40):
it in the moment when you have the most adrenaline
and wanting.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
To do it.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Well.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Yeah, so that's a really tough one because we all
know that we do things better like with ADHD, that
we do things better at the last minute. But the
problem is you probably face a large degree of shame
leading up to that that moment where for maybe weeks
or months, you are thinking about the thing, and you
are thinking about how you're just not doing the thing
(30:08):
and how bad you are and how you should be
doing it, and that just weighs on you. And that
is a really really large cost, and so it's different
for each person. If you feel like that cost is
not big, not big for you, one option is do
I have heard of people who are like I just
accept that I do things at the last minute, and
I will do it. And it depends on what job
you have as well. Some people are able to do that,
some people aren't. So I'll first say that, like, you
(30:29):
might not need to solve it. Maybe you need to
solve the part where you're ruminating, and maybe you need
to solve the urgency part really figuring out which part
you need to solve. But if you do want to
not do things at the very last minute, which I
generally can't in my job, the way that I've done
it is one way is by building in like micro
urgency moments using my motivators. So again similar examples before.
(30:54):
If I know that there's a big project that's due,
I try not to make I try when I do
the project planning part, I try to build in multiple
smaller urgency moments for me. So I will do a
meeting maybe a quarterway through where I know I need
someone's feedback and they're waiting for my for what I have,
and we've communicated ahead of time that on this day
we're going to talk about this thing. And that for
(31:16):
me is enough for me to be able to do
that quarter of the work because I have that pre
set out for me. And if you have the I
would say privilege, let's say, if you have an assistant
or if using SUSPREI tool, having them be able to
do that for you because they know that you need that.
And setting the meeting if there's a meeting in my calendar,
and I know everyone's different. For me, if there's a
(31:36):
meeting in my calendar, I will prepare for it. If
there's no meeting my calendar, I won't prepare for it.
So and if there's a meeting with someone else, I
will more likely prepare for a while. So just really
pulling on all of those your own motivators and then
building in extra urgency moments is really helpful. And then
another thing is really just a lot of the times
we do something. Let's say we wait until the last
(31:59):
minute and then we do this thing really stressfully and
then we say, oh my gosh, I'm never doing this again.
This is so stressful. I hate this, and then within
a month you forget, You totally forget that learning that
is so common, not just for this example, but so
many examples. So I think one thing that's also really
important is finding your own way of making sure you
capture the things that you've learned in the past. And
(32:22):
so I mean with me, I use Schimmer, but it's
not just negative and like learnings, but also wins. So
I have a folder in my phone and in my
laptop and in my email. I have three different ones
that I capture, like testimonials, photos when someone sends me
an Instagram comment that says that, like my ex video
has changed their life. And because I need reminders of
(32:42):
those things because on days where I'm not doing so hot,
I will forget and I'll be like wow, like all
this is for nothing and nobody. I've not changed anyone's life,
and I've just been here working myself off for no reason.
And so I get these narratives in my head, and
when I can just look at these pictures or look
at these messages, it reminds me and kind of grounds
(33:04):
me in the past. Because it's harder for people with
ADHD to remember the past, especially when they're in like
an emotionally dysregulated moment.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yeah, I can. I can only imagine how tricky that
would be, just being like, oh, I can never remember
a good thing that anyone said to me. Like the
the intersection of like self esteem in ADHD is like
a whole nother conversation. I had a friend who actually,
speaking of like the urgency stuff and meeting deadlines at
the start of every single semester when we were at UNI,
(33:35):
he would go through all the core syllabuses and then
put all of the deadlines in his in his calendar
three days beforehand, and he kind of was like, I'm
going to use my memory, the fact that I know
I'm not going to have great memory recall to like
and some of them he'd do like three some of them,
and he'd do like five. Some of them he'd do
like two days beforehand. One day beforehand. He was like,
(33:58):
I'm just gonna, you know, go and you know, trust
that I'm not going to remember which ones I did
for which of these. I'm just going to trust what's
in my calendar and get it done at this state
so that by the time that rolls around, like I
get to feel the urgency. I finished the work, and
then I have like a day to edit, or have
like a day to fix it, or I just submit
(34:19):
and I'm like happily surprised by the fact that the
deadline hasn't passed yet. I feel like for some people
that wouldn't work, but I saw it work incredibly well
for him. It was like, honestly, I was like watching
it being like, how do you just lie to yourself
like that? And like it was so weird, Like he
knew that it was a lie, and he would still
believe it even like it was just the most interesting
(34:41):
thing that he'd found, like this hack for his brain.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
I love that. Yeah, he's I mean, he's externalizing his memory.
And also once he gets there, even though he knows,
it's still a lot of effort to do the calculation
and exactly. Yeah, it's kind of like when I think
a lot of people did this. It's not just an
ADHD thing. But when I was younger, my clerk was
always five minutes ahead. I put all my clocks five
minutes ahead, and I knew it was a lie, But
(35:07):
you just don't, like, I'm not constantly calculating the time
so I just end up getting to places I think
five minutes. I thought I would be there five minutes early,
but then i'd be there on time, which is perfect, Oh.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
My god, perfect. Yeah. See I never did that because
I just knew. I was like, well that's not the truth.
But then again, like I had executive function where I
can just be like, oh, I'll just get there.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
So it's like interesting, how like maybe, yeah, it's just
so interesting how different people do those things. I want
to talk about love. I want to start by talking
about rejection sensitivity. This is a word that I hear
in regards to ADHD all the time. I've done an
episode on it before. I have, I think a pretty
general knowledge of it. Can you talk us through it?
(35:49):
Why is it so common amongst people with ADHD? And
I guess my third question, so sorry, three questions at once,
how can people manage it? But firstly, what is it?
Why is it common that we can talk about for
managing it?
Speaker 2 (36:02):
So, rejection sensitivity dysphoria, which is commonly known as RSD,
is essentially a phenomenon, I guess you can call it
where people with ADHD will feel like they're rejected by
other people. Or feel like there's negative sentiment coming towards them,
and it's defined as like real or perceived rejections. So
(36:23):
oftentimes it falls in that second category of perceived and
it's generally created through well one emotional dysregulation of us.
Just the moment we feel something, we like, jump on
that feeling, and then it becomes bigger and bigger, and
then we're kind of just swimming in that feeling or
or I guess. And it's also because we've had an
entire lifetime of people telling us that we were wrong,
(36:45):
are we doing it the wrong way? And then we've
internalized that and then we continue to tell ourselves that.
And so whenever there's like a small I guess like signal,
you feel like you've done something wrong. And so for me,
for example, like whenever I'm in an our argument with someone,
uh work or relationships, I will always think that I'm wrong,
(37:06):
like one hundred percent of the time that's my immediate reaction.
Sometimes people need to convince me, and this is happened
in relationships where they're like no, no, like let's have a
conversation about this. There's no right or wrong. We're just
trying to get to a understanding, and so I've been
I've been unlearning that I'm just like, oh, no, I
must have done something wrong, like you must hate me.
(37:27):
So it is for most people at ATDHD, this lifelong unlearning,
and especially in like logically, I know in people's situations
it's there's no there's often not like a wrong, but
I just feel that way, and so I guess you're
second part of the question of like what people can
do with it?
Speaker 3 (37:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
One really for me that's been most helpful and I
have been working on with coaching. That comes up for
a lot of our members too, is really understanding like
what your triggers are and what sort of situations these
come up with come up in the most And this
actually goes for not just RSD, but also impulsivity. It's
the same thing where I do a lot of impulsive,
(38:06):
stupid things and I don't realize it's wrong and it's
hurt people until after it's done and people communicate it
to me. And for both of those things, what I
worked on with my coach is separately for those two things,
understanding what situations do those commonly happen in, and just
the awareness of that when you're about to step into
a situation like that, Like for example, with impulsivity, maybe
(38:28):
it's drinking, and you can have that pep talk with
yourself to say, okay, like I'm entering this situation with awareness,
and so you can it could be awareness that your
RSD might be triggered. It could be awareness that you
might do something impulsive, so that you can put and
it's the same solution again. You can put that pause.
So when someone says something and you immediately your brain
(38:50):
starts spiraling, you need to get into the practice of
putting the pause. And same with impulsivity. When you're about
to have an impulsive moment and you just need to
figure out how to put the pause. The best thing
you can do for yourself is understanding when that generally happens,
because it's it's not random for each person. It's going
to be in different situations where that happens. And so
really just knowing in this situation, these sorts of conversations
(39:15):
generally make me feel this way, and if that happens,
I'm going to do this. And if you have that
plan beforehand, when you're calm and collected and you've written
that down, ideally I used to have. I think when
I first hearded this exercise, I used to have a
sticky note and I would like put it in my
closet where I would like get dressed before going out,
where I would more likely to drink. And so really
(39:35):
just like putting it where you would need to see
it to remind yourself of that, and over time you'll
need to remind yourself less because your brain is kind
of trained to go trigger and then thought and then
like being able to block that thought.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
It's like putting yourself in a waiting room. That's like
what that sounds like to me. I'm like, okay, before
we react, or like before we do something like forcing
your self to like sit with it for a.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Little bit exactly, and knowing when you might need to
be in that waiting room, because yeah, when you're emotionally dysregulated,
you might not be able to put yourself in that
waiting room. So like basically giving your brain an auto pilot,
saying like, if this happens, I go to a waiting room.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Yeah, it's like if then, which I love and I
just like can't imagine what it would feel like to
be Like everybody who says something slightly rude or just
slightly off or not even like you just interpret them.
It's like not liking you. My friend actually told me
about this rule, which is like the twenty five percent rule,
which is there is like, actually only a small amount
(40:39):
of people, maybe twenty five percent of people who you
will never convince not to like you, or who you
will never convince to like you. Sorry, that's what I
should say, never convinced to like you. And that's like
one in four, which might sound like a huge number,
but it's just kind of like doing the math of like, actually,
not every single person could possibly not like me, but
(41:03):
also I'm down to accept that maybe like a quarter
of them will, and that's just a certainty that everyone's
going to find themselves in. So I don't know if
that's also helpful, but yeah, I would just be wild.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Yeah, And I think the other thing is I often,
whenever I have a feeling RSD is one of them,
I often think that it's less of a reflection on
the other person, and it's usually a reflection on myself.
So I would say the other tip that I would
have is if you think that everyone's having some sort
of negative thought towards yourself, it might not be, but
(41:37):
I would challenge to think if you maybe have that
negative thought towards yourself, and so yeah, that is the case,
then you need to do the work to be able
to reinforce your strengths, reinforce pass wins, to really build
up your self confidence, which is is a practice of
building self confidence of continuing to put yourself out there
and seeing that things are going to go well for
(41:58):
you and that you can handle these situation. And so
as you build up your self confidence, you will find
that these situations, you'll less likely feel like other people
don't like you because you back yourself so hard. And
that's such a long journey, right, but like you want
to get to the point where you back yourself so
hard that you wouldn't think that they don't like you.
(42:18):
But even if you had all the signals and they
didn't like you, it wouldn't even impact you because it
doesn't matter because you back yourself so much.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Yeah, which I love. I'm like, this is something I
find even in someone without ADHD. It's like the things
that sting the most are the things that you think
might be true exactly, And that's that's something that is
for everybody so it's like, yes, where is that pain
coming from? I want to talk about a bit more
about relationships as well, and maybe some of the common
(42:48):
hurdles or pitfalls that people with ADHD might find when
they're falling in love or even in friendship.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah, so I did a whole series called ADHG Go
Feels and add Toogle dates on this, so it's really
fun if you want to check it out. But I think,
like in the early stages, one of the really common ones,
which is a interesting one because I do this and
I've been done this too, is definitely around love bombing.
(43:16):
This comes up so frequently because it's related to emotional
dysregulation in that when we fall for someone, it's very
common that we fall for them, like really hard, and
then we ignore all the signals, even if there's red
flags or whatever it is, and we pour so much
love in them that it can also sometimes scare people away.
(43:36):
So even in a relationship where it could have worked,
maybe you just freak them out because you came on
too hard, and so that in itself can be a challenge.
But also then there's this transition of like when you
finish the initial dysregulated love bombing, it can feel jarring
to your partner when you suddenly like change the way
(43:58):
that you act. And I know everyone goes through a
little bit of this, but I think with each years
we feel this more and it's very common, this full
love bombing thing. I think love bombs obviously not the
official term for it, but everything get is heightened, and
this is a very sensitive moment where it is sometimes
helpful to be aware of that and then make sure
(44:19):
you're I mean, it's your choice if you want to
try to control it and slow it down. I think
a lot of people give advice to slow it down.
I actually just find it important to communicate. For me,
I actually enjoy the really strong I'm falling ahead over
my feels heels feeling. I just will explain to the
person that this happens to me, I think this is
(44:41):
what's happening, and just keeping the communication open so that
they're aware that I'm aware of this and we're kind
of a decision together. But I know a lot of
people do give the advice to there's tactics to essentially
like kind of like draw that love period out longer
so that you can be able to explore things in
a more calm way. So I think it's really person dependent.
(45:04):
Obviously there's no right answer.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
And what do you think or from experience, what happens
after like the love high kind of crashes, Like I
feel like that state where you know there may be
love bombing that maybe intensity like can only last for
so long. What happens then? Is it a case of
like you get bored or you get confused, or you
(45:30):
think you've fallen out of love with them? Yeah, what
does that feeling feel like.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
A lot of the times it does. It does feel
like boredom. And I think that there's a process of
figuring out if it's because of the person in your
relationship that isn't actually right and you were just stuck
in all the feelings, or if you haven't found a
way to potentially value and fall in love with the
other parts of a relationship which are maybe not the
(45:58):
same as the parts of the relationship in the beginning.
And it also I think a lot of the times too,
because you fell so hard, you weren't thinking very critically
about things like for example, most of my neurotypical friends
I actually know that they have this list of like
no negotiables and things we're in a relationship and all
of those things, and I always thought it was kind
(46:20):
of interesting because I was like, oh, there's no point
in me making that because I've actually never chosen a
relationship that I've been in. I've just fallen into it.
I don't know why I would have.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
That list, when would I use it.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
But I did actually recently create the list because my
co founder, who is neurotypical, he had this list and
we were talking about it and I was like, Okay,
I'll try to create the list, and so it was
helpful going through the thought process around it. But I'm
just not sure if I would use it in the
same way that are able to use it in the
(46:52):
same because I'm not as level headed going into a relationship.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
Yeah, which I feel like could be both so much
fun and super scary, and you're like, yeah, I'm just
here for the for the ride, like wherever this goes,
Like I kind of know I might not be in
control for the first little bit, which I don't know.
You said you enjoyed the feeling, so it kind of
sounds fine.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Yeah, I do enjoy it, but I definitely have gone
through phases where I had like pretty strong fears of
what if I can ever be in a long term relationship,
what if I'm only good at this beginning part. So
those are definitely things that I have thought about. I'm
currently in my first ever ADHD ADHD relationship. I've alw
(47:37):
AHD neurotypical relationships, so I'm starting to change my mind
about things because we talk really openly about ADHD symptoms
and we communicate through it, so it's felt different. So
I'm hopeful.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
I'm hopeful for you as well. Okay, we're gonna take
one more shortbreak, but when we return, I'm gonna kind
of talk a bit more. I want to talk more
about this relationship that you're in and how you're managing it,
and also you know some tips for people who are
diagnosed and just for tips for people in their twenties
in general, So stay with us. Okay, So you mentioned
(48:20):
during your first ADHD ADHD relationship, how is that different
from dating somebody who is neurotypical if you want to
talk about it, of course.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
Yeah, yeah, of course I have thought about this a lot,
and I actually, coming into this relationship, I thought that
I had to be in an adh G neuorotypical relationship
one me.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
And my co founder is neurotypical. So even from a
business perspective, I've always thought, Okay, we have different skills,
we have different strengths, and together we are stronger. And
I do think I still do believe in that. But
I used to believe that it couldn't be a different way.
And so now I'm in an adhdadd relationship and there's
different pros cons. I think, obviously there's certain things where
(49:03):
we are both going to be bad at and therefore
it's going to be harder to get done, like chores
or lock things around the house. But I think the
pros is that there's so many things I didn't realize
until I was in an ADHDADHD relationship that I used
to need to at least explain and try to explain
myself because it looked like I was either being lazy
(49:24):
or careless, or I didn't love them or whatever. There's
a lot of misinterpretations or even worse than that, A
lot of the times I would not even try to explain.
I would just feel like I was going to get
judged for something and therefore just not do it. Versus now,
I think in a lot of situations. We will just
talk about things like the communication will just be more
(49:45):
open and I will be more comfortable sharing things because
I know that she'll have a similar either a similar
perspective or or at least understand that perspectives are different.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
Yeah, I feel like it'd be so comforting just being like, oh,
I don't have to I don't eat, Like you have
some of the same knowledge as me, and.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
We can laugh about things that we can laugh at
ourselves rather than laughing at the other person. But yeah,
it's been It's also been hard for me to untangle
because this is also my first queer relationship, So some
things I'm like, I'm not sure if this is coming
from interesting part or the I'm dating a woman part.
(50:32):
So it's like, is.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
It easier because it's ADHD or because like, yeah, women
just tend to have more planning skills. Yeah, that's interesting,
or like tend to just like be easier to work
with slash be with.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Yeah. Yeah, it's like I wish from a scientific perspective,
if these could have happened in two steps, that would
have been helpful.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
But no, that's so funny. I love that you wanted
to control group. That's so me, I don't I get
what you mean. This is another thing that's like my
second final question has been coming to the end of
this episode. How do you deal with or how do
you think people with ADHD can deal with this feeling
(51:12):
that they are too much, that they are too much
for love, they're too much for the workplace, they're too
much in friendship, they're too much for their family. Have
you like kind of had to overcome that in your
own life, and like how did you kind of go
about it?
Speaker 2 (51:26):
Yeah, So I always thought I was too much, and
I just as I mentioned at the beginning, I kind
of just accepted that I was a bad kid. And
even in my first job in consulting, I was told that, oh,
your your work is really great, but you're I think
(51:47):
even some point they said I was doing too much.
I was doing a lot of pro bono and volunteering
stuff and they're like, that's not the point of your job.
And then I was doing too much like social and
culture stuff. And also I wasn't being like reliable and
consistent in enough. So I think it's a big it's
actually a mix up in too much and not enough,
which is kind of ironic, but you constantly feel like
(52:07):
you're in one of those two buckets. You're either too
much or not enough. And so for me, one big
the thing that has been really helpful honestly has just
been changing my environment. As a entrepreneur. You're never too much.
You're expected to be too much, so you're expected to
push the boundaries. You're expected to be really inspirational and
(52:27):
loud and be doing a bunch of things, and so
that really helped because the expectation is just different. And
then the other thing is like speaking about relationships. Even
in relationships, I always felt like I was either too
much or not enough. And I think in this current relationship,
we've had this conversation many times, and I think it's
(52:47):
because she also has ADHD, but she's also too much
quote unquote, and so I think it just changes the
barometer because everything is contextual right. Too much is like
too much for what, too much compared to neurotypical people,
too much compared to what's expected of you. So if
you can change the comparison point, then you no longer
(53:08):
become too much. You just become different than other people
around you. But everywhere is different in a different way.
So I think if you have the privilege to change
the context around you, the environment around you, that's generally easier.
And there's a lot of members who come to us
even at Shimmer, they'll say things like, Oh, I just
(53:29):
like want to be productive because I'm not productive enough,
I'm not organized enough. And then turns out what actually
would make them happy is just placing them in a
different environment or a different job, or having a different
sort of system so such that they don't need to
do all the high horse power work that they think
is required to be able to get to where they want.
So really questioning those aspects. And then the other piece,
(53:51):
which I know I've touched on a lot, is just
finding your way to build up self assurance and self confidence. Yeah,
and the like the little tactics I talked about about
keeping your winds really handy, keeping making sure the people
around you are really supportive, And a lot of it
starts with leadership as well. Uh, if you are gassing
(54:13):
up the people around you and leading by example and
they think about it, they're probably gonna gas you up back.
So a lot of the times we sit here wishing
that like the world was different, But if you just
do how I mean, there's like the cliche like treating
other people how you want to be treated, but it
really works. Three examples. It's a cliche for that way
(54:33):
to make someone do someone something that you want them
to do is for you to do it, and they
just they see it and they're like, oh okay, but
if you tell them that they should do it, they're
not going to do it.
Speaker 1 (54:45):
Yeah, it's like a total that's like I can confirm
according to psychology that it's like a very real effect.
And also if you do something for them, they're more
likely to like you as well. And if you do
something like and you're more likely to like them. Like
it's this whole interaction of like reciprocity. Like I've had
this feeling recently where I'm like I started to understand
(55:07):
why cliches are cliches, and that one like treat people
how you want to be treated is like one of
my favorites. When I'm like, oh god, that's so wise,
Like they were so right on that one.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
Yeah. There in my So, I went to my for
a undergrad I did business school and I had a
negotiations class, and I don't remember anything from any of
my classes. I have no memory, but this one really
stuck with me, and they gave us this one talking
point where when someone where when you do something for
someone and they say thank you, you tell them, oh,
(55:39):
no problem at all. I know you'd do the same
for me, and you're like reinforcing reciprocity.
Speaker 1 (55:43):
I was like, leaky, see there here, guys, a little
bit of manipulation, doesn't it can't go far enough. I
have one final question for you. What is one piece
of advice? This is a question we ask everybody. What
is one piece of advice that you would have for
people in the twenties that has nothing to do with
(56:04):
what we talked about today, nothing to do with ADHD,
nothing to do with yeah, any of the things we
touched on.
Speaker 2 (56:09):
Just a piece of advice from you to them. I,
based on my experience, I would say, just experiment and
have fun. I think that oftentimes we take everything a
little bit too seriously and we get lost in things
that we later on decide weren't even important to us
to begin with. So what that looks like for me
(56:32):
is really just doing some work figuring out kind of
what your values are. They might change over time, but
just doing putting a little bit thought behind them, and
then just ensuring you're living semi accordingly to them, and
then just experimenting, because sometimes you do you don't really
know what you're going to like or if something's going
to feel good for you unless you actually unless you
try it. And a lot of the times people get
(56:55):
caught up too early picking a path, and especially I
know you said, don't say ADHD, but especially no No no,
who are super who are like multipotential lights and they
have lots of hobbies. And we're told by society that
you need to pick one career and know your purpose
and just do it for the rest of your life.
And if you have that narrative in your head, it
(57:16):
is really difficult because who knows when they're eighteen what
they want to do. And I think that's yeah, really changing.
Speaker 1 (57:23):
I honestly think that's like one of the biggest mistakes
that society has made is making people decide so young.
I just feel like there's so many, so much unhappiness,
and so many people who become like obsessed with the
wrong things like money and like wealth or like status
because like what they chose at eighteen was meant to
be the thing they had to do for the rest
(57:43):
of their life. So I love that advice and I
totally resonate with it. Well, I want to say thank
you so much for coming on, even as someone who
doesn't have any HD, I actually loved some of those
tips just for like genuine as, like as someone who
works by themselves and can get distracted very easily. Like
they're just so helpful. Where can people find you and
(58:05):
where can people find shimmer?
Speaker 2 (58:08):
Shimmer is at Shimmer dot care and I'm at INSTAGRAMADHD
dot Crystal, and yeah, just head to our website. That's
the easiest way to learn about what we do, whether
you or someone you know has ADHD. We have the
ADHD for Adults program, and then we have the ADHD
for Teens program, so all sorts of behavioral supports and
(58:30):
community supports. The goal is really just for everyone with
ADHD to reach their full potential and also reach it
in their own way that works for them.
Speaker 1 (58:40):
Which I just think is amazing. Well, it was such
a pleasure to have you on board. Remember guys to
go and check Chris out and all of her work.
It's fantastic And if you enjoyed this episode, give us
a five star review, share it with a friend who
you think might need to hear it, and follow us
on Instagram at that Psychology podcast if you want to
(59:02):
give any feedback, if you have any further questions or
thoughts about this episode or any other episodes, if you
want us to expand on anything we talked about, or
if you just want to see behind the scenes, we'd
love to have you over there. But until next time,
stay safe, bekind, be gentle to yourself. We will talk
very very soon.
Hello everybody. I'm Jemma Spake and welcome back to the
Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through
the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and
what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back
(00:25):
to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners,
old listeners. Wherever you are in the world, it is
so great to have you here. Back for another episode
as we, of course break down the Psychology of Your twenties. Today,
we're going to talk about ADHD. Getting diagnosed with ADHD
as an adult can feel like both a revelation and
(00:47):
a bit of a reckoning. It's this moment when everything
about how you've moved through the world probably makes a
lot more sense, but you also now have to learn
all these new ways to manage. This is exactly the
experience of today's guest, Chris Wang. She's the founder of Shimmer.
It's an ADHD coaching platform that has helped thousands of
(01:08):
adults better understand their brains. And she herself was diagnosed
in her twenties after years of feeling like she was
kind of doing life wrong. And the thing is her
story is actually not a unique one. I've heard from
so many of you who have had the same experience,
been through the same process. So today I wanted to
(01:31):
talk to her about practical strategies for managing your time,
energy focus, managing ADHD in your twenties, especially when traditional
productivity advice maybe hasn't ever worked for you. I also
want to explore love and dating with ADHD, why relationships
can feel so intense, so confusing or addictive, how to
(01:53):
handle romantic rejection but also just rejection in general, and
how to feel like you're not too much in a
world that is asking everybody to be a lot smaller.
I love this conversation, so without further ado, let's get
into it. Chris Wang, welcome to the show. Thank you
so much for coming on.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Thank you so much for having me. You're an absolute icon.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I'm sick. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Can you
tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and what
you do. I feel like I gave a little introduction before,
but I'm like, you can say it in your own words,
in the better words. Probably.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
I don't know if it's better, but I'm Chris. I'm
the co founder and CEO of Shimmer. I am also
a late diagnos adhder, so I was diagnosed with ADHD
when I was twenty eight, which I know we'll get
into that a little bit, but it's been a whirlwind
of a journey navigating that diagnosis while creating Shimmer, which
is a behavioral support platform, and as of date we've
(02:52):
done seventy five thousand coaching sessions, which is really exciting
just thinking about how many people have with ADHD have
been a part of our journey, and many of them
are late diagnosed as well. And the last piece is
along the journey this is very ADHD as well. Usually
things kind of unfold. I have become an ADHD creator
as well, so I started off by posting just My
(03:16):
first series was ADHD Girl Hacks, so posting hacks that
I've gleaned through my coaching journey and also those of
the thousands of other folks who have gone through our
platform but since then have done ADHD goal works, adh
gold Dates and ADHD goal fields. So I know we'll
get into tips and things like that afterwards, but it's
been a little bit of a journey since that diagnosis.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
I'm really excited to hear about ADHD girld dates. That's
like something I'm particularly interested in hearing. But this definitely
won't surprise you. It did surprise me how many people
reach out to me with a similar story of like,
I had all of these difficulties well actually, like sometimes
(04:00):
even a lack of difficulties when I was at school,
and then suddenly I became an adult, and you know,
all the things that people had ignored or that I
like worked really hard to mask, like kind of came
to the surface and here I was at twenty seven,
twenty eight, twenty nine, like basically discovering a new aspect
of my identity and of how I operate. Can you
(04:22):
tell us a little bit about your story and maybe
like what it felt like, Oh, how it was growing up?
Did you feel different and when you maybe realized that
like there was a label for this or a series
of symptoms that could kind of explain it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So I will first preface by saying that people's AHD
looks really different, and I'm glad you're asking for individual stories,
because I think sometimes it's very easy to hear a
story and not hear yourself in it, or hear a
story and do hear yourself in it and feel like
you either don't have it HD or have it HD.
So I think it's really important to learn about the symptoms,
(04:58):
learn about the different ways the symptoms can coexist with
each other, and also go through that process yourself. And
I also will want to say if your listeners haven't
really dug into ADHD. There's also three types of ADHD,
and I'll share which one I am as well. But
there's the hyperactive impulsive ADHD, which are folks who as
a kid were kind of bouncing off of wall, super talkative,
(05:20):
probably getting into trouble, and as adults generally won't look
as disruptive, but maybe it's chatty, maybe it's more internally
being more hyperactive, and so that's kind of on the
hyperactive impulsive side. And then there's the inattentive side, which
is the other type that generally a lot of the
times women will have and girls will have which a
lot of the times when you're younger, will be internally
(05:42):
presenting as well. So those are the daydreamers, the ones
who maybe as an adult struggle to follow conversations or
get lost in your own daydreams in your head, and
so that inattentive ADHD will look really different from the
hyperactive ADHDER. And the third type, which is the type
that I am fortunately or unfortunately, is the combined type.
(06:02):
So that's when you have symptoms from both sides. And
so when you meet someone who has ADHD, they could
look really different if they just fall within those three buckets,
but also if they have other sorts of intersectionalities and
co occurrences with other mental health conditions. So I just
wanted to preface that. And so for me, I have
all the most of the symptoms, but specifically the ones
(06:25):
that were the most salient. When I was a kid,
was definitely on the hyperactive side. I was super talkative.
I was constantly distracting people around me. I was always
being told I was too loud or just to sit
down or be quiet, just constantly in the way. I
think as I grew up, I've been thinking about this
(06:46):
a lot. I think I've heard a lot of stories
of folks who their self confidence and anxiety just really
increases over time, especially as girls. And so there's actually
the stat that people with ADHD here twenty thousand more
negative messages by the time that they're ten years old
in comparison to their non ADHD peers, which is pretty significant.
(07:08):
And you can imagine, especially if you don't have the
right support system or other ways that you feel confidence,
that that would yield just a lower self perception, lower goals,
and just the way that you move through life is
going to be really different. And so getting support and
getting at least awareness and acknowledgment that you are different
and you will navigate things differently as a kid, I
(07:29):
think is super super important. I was lucky in that
a mix of I think being Asian and having a
really strong emphasis of my parents on grades and being smart.
I did get good grades and that helped me build
a sense of confidence when I was younger. So even
though I was getting kicked out of class all the
(07:50):
time I got suspended, the impact on me as a
kid actually wasn't as strong. And you'll hear all sorts
of different stories, I think for me when we think
about diagnosis, the impact didn't get really strong for me
until I became an adult and all of those kind
of structures and goals kind of fell off. It was
actually when I first started my business, and I when
(08:11):
we were in the pandemic and so everything was online
and I was not able to get a lot of
that visual and physical stimulation from other people. And then two,
I was an entrepreneur and not only was I creating
structures for myself, but I was expected to create structures
for other people as well, And that for me was
when everything started kind of crumbling. And it took me
(08:34):
that long to actually realize that all of these symptoms
related to were related to ADHD. And a big part
of that also came from my cultural upbringing of not
talking about mental health and not talking about ADHD since
I was a kid. And there's I think it's called
like the rule of seven, where is a marketing thing
where a consumer needs to see like seven ats. Yeah, yeah,
(08:56):
I feel like it's kind of similar with my ADHD.
I had a friend told me, tell me maybe I
have ADHD because he has AHD. I had Instagram for
you page was getting at me, and so I really
just started seeing it from here and there. So it
was a very nonlinear journey to finally thinking, oh, maybe
it's this and then once then you go down the
rabbit hole. Or I went down the rabbit hole and
(09:17):
started researching, and that's what led me to my diagnosis.
So again, like as I said, I think everyone. I've
heard so many stories by now, like everyone's story looks
so different and depending on your culture and your other intersectionalities,
and also just the cards that you were really dealt
with in the support that you had throughout your life.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
It's so interesting, like going back to what you said
about the negative messaging that kids with ADHD will get,
but also how some of them are actually highly functional
in schooling environments, like when you said that you got
you got such great grades. Like I'm thinking about my
best friend who also got to like a diagnosis for ADHD,
(09:59):
and I remember sitting with her and her mom doing
the test. Do you know what I'm talking about, Like
the scaling thing, like it's like maybe twenty pages long, yeah,
and her mom being like you really didn't struggle with that.
You really didn't struggle, Like no, that doesn't describe you
at all, And Aaron being like, no, but I like
(10:19):
you saw the outside of that. This was the inside
of that, and how hard it was. And also like
you know, her day was so organized, she had like
twenty different activities per day. There was always something to
keep her preoccupied, but also a structure within which you
know it was so routine focused. My question around that
is do you see a lot of people be like,
(10:43):
I cannot possibly have this disorder because I don't look
a certain way or because you know, I'm not just
I'm not in this description and all this idea of
what this is.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yeah, one hundred percent. I think one thing that is
that woman here a lot is that you're too smart
to have ADHD, and that happens as an adult, happens
as a kid, and ADHD has nothing to do with intelligence.
There are people who are who are have higher IQs
with ADHD and lower. It doesn't it's not correlated. And
(11:16):
also like with your friend, that's something I hear too
as well. There's just one example I always give. If
you ask someone with ADHD how often do you lose
their keys? They often say I lose it multiple times
a day, or they say I never lose my keys,
and you say, okay, well why they say, because I
have this very elaborate system and built the entire system
as to why they don't lose their keys. So both
(11:37):
those people have ADHD, it's just that they've dealt with
that differently. So what intelligence? This one is definitely one
and another one is women who have presented with inattentive
symptoms because they weren't in the way of their teacher
or their parent, and they oftentimes had been told that
they don't have ADHD because we haven't really understood until
(11:58):
recently what that DIES diagnosis looks like in woman, what
it looks like in girls. And so that's changing now
and a lot of the times now with millennials, as
parents knowing more about ADHD, being able to see this
in their kid and then being able to advocate for
their kid with their doctors or their or their teachers
has been really helpful in this journey. Like we see
(12:19):
a lot of members come to us either who were
diagnosed because their kid was diagnosed and just generally millennials
or people the other way around who they were diagnosed,
and then they're like, I'm starting to see these symptoms
in my kid. How do I best support them? How
do I make sure that they don't go through the
thing that the experience that I went through?
Speaker 1 (12:39):
And I think it's so interesting because I like, I'm
sure you've seen this. There's all these articles as like
everybody has ADHD now, blah blah blah blah Blahyeah, actually
let me before I say what I'm gonna say. What
are your thoughts on those popecastle those kind of articles
or headlines.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, so I think it's a little bit problematic because
but I get where it comes from. When you hear
people say they're symptoms out of context, it sounds like, oh, yeah,
I lose my keys too, right, Like I also stub
my toe on the chair, I always. I also struggle
to get organized, I struggle to focus. So these are
all universal symptoms, and especially in the inattention economy today,
(13:21):
people are feeling those more strongly, and so I think
that there's a couple of things here. Like one, people
with ADHD face those symptoms way more severely and every
single day, all day. And imagine if you can imagine
you feeling that once in a while. Imagine if someone
was feeling it all day and it just becomes like,
let's say you have a plan to go to a
(13:42):
meeting that day, and then you end up spending your
entire morning going back and forth for getting like seventeen things,
and like what that does to you when you arrive
at at that meeting and you're not confident, You feel
like you're dumb. And then you botch the meeting, and
so there's just so many effects that are just they
compound on each other. And so I think what people
don't understand is the compounding effect of the severity and
the frequency. Because the other thing about the ADHD diagnosis
(14:06):
is that you have to have impairment in your life
for you to actually get that diagnosis. So that's actually
part of the diagnosis criteria and has to show up
before you're twelve. That's how the DSM five is currently structured.
So that's one thing, and then the other thing. I
think that just from a human perspective, I feel like
if you can resonate with people, instead of saying everyone
has ADHD, I would challenge people to think, Okay, I
(14:29):
can resonate with that feeling, and I imagine if they're
feeling this all the time and way more intensely and
it's impacting their life, instead of dismissing them through that resonance,
it should we should take more an approach of empathy
of like, okay, well I can understand a little bit.
I can only imagine how hard this is for you.
And so taking that, I think that mindset shift is
something that a lot of folks, especially on the Internet,
(14:51):
I would challenge them, as you trying to think of
it in that way.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
I also just think like anytime I see those articles,
like that's just factually encorrec like not everybody has ADHD,
like and I think it's one of those things where
there's a specific kind of person who like makes everybody's
health their business, and like everybody's lives their business. And
(15:14):
I think it's especially like an older generation who are like,
I don't want to talk about this, like everybody is
the same, Why can't it just be like as it
once was? And when they hear stories about ADHD and
the media or in the news, it's like when you
hear about plane crashes, right, it makes you believe that
they're a lot more common. It makes you believe that
this is going to be this is actually a problem,
(15:36):
and they don't actually have all the full information, Like
there's all these cognitive biases that are making it seem
like a like a a fake epidemic, and it must
must be like such a struggle as you know someone
with ADHD yourself to be like, you don't know what
I went through to get this diagnosis. It wasn't like
I just went in and said I think I have
this and okay, now give me the late people like,
(16:00):
can you talk a little bit more about how that
diagnosis maybe actually helped you understand yourself better and maybe
it was actually, like, as you said, a long time coming.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah. So I think one of the biggest things for
me and is for a lot of our members, is
that pre diagnosis, everything about you that you didn't know
yet was related to ADHD. You just attribute it to
your personality or you attribute it to you as a human,
as like your core human. So for example, I used
I always just thought I was a bad kid. I
(16:33):
was like, I'm a bad kid, I'm a bad influence.
It makes sense that other my kid, my friend's parents
don't want me to hang out with them. Like I
didn't even question these things. They were just facts about me.
And now having this diagnosis, being able to look back
and say, like, Okay, I wasn't a bad kid, Like
these were the things that I was struggling with. This
(16:53):
is why, and this is probably what I needed in
the time to be able to be supported. But so
going forward, so I like, I'm same with the coaching
methodologic gy. I'm very future oriented. I think it's important
to understand the past, and sometimes it helps untangle those
things to rewrite your identity. But for me going forward,
it's also about understanding what comes from my ADHD so
(17:14):
I can better communicate around it and communicate with myself
so that I don't feel like a bad person. But
I also communicate with the people around me to have
the right language so it doesn't sound like excuses or
I'm just like, oh, I'm just I'm just always late.
I can't do anything about it. So it's not about that.
It's more of like, Okay, well, I just want you
(17:35):
to know that because of my ADHD symptoms, it's hard
for me to be on time. These are some things
that I'm trying to do to mitigate that is, these
are some things that if it's not too much for you,
maybe maybe you can do this to help me with
this process as well. And so it really gives you
that language, and that makes it especially in a partnership
about like you me and then there's ADHD. Right, Like,
(17:55):
we're talking about how we can solve for this thing,
and I'm taking responsibility for my part, but I'm also
asking as a partner if you can be able to
support me in that instead of just being tied to
an identity that you're not sure what is you and
what is HD. So I think for me, that's been
one of the biggest pieces. And then I think the
other piece is around just understanding what my strengths and
(18:20):
weaknesses are and with the lens of ADHD, not so
I can fix all of the weaknesses is, but more
so that I can put myself in situations where I'm
leveraging my strengths more. And that's been the main part
of the journey that I've been on with coaching, and
a lot of our members are on with coaching as
well as really that reframe to place yourself in better
(18:42):
situations and communicate better rather than just thinking, oh, there's
all these things that are bad about me that I
need to fix.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Well, this kind of brings me to this proactive approach
to ADHD that you talk about speak me through this
specific perspective, because as I understand it, you know, we've
gone back to the history of like what it would
maybe have been like to be a kid who has
an undiagnosed ADHD and your cold a nuisance and you're cold,
annoying and as you said, you know, parents don't want
(19:11):
their kids to hang out with you like you know
your skold it all the time. Probably when you get
an ADHD diagnosis, it would be very easy for you
to think of it as a weakness. You like to
think of it as a as a strength. Took me
through that a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeah, I think it's a It's such a fine balance
and it's a really big sticking point in the ADHD community.
I think on one end, there's the extremely deficit driven
approach of I have ADHD, I have all of these
things that are wrong with me, and I need to
fix all of them. That is not the mental model
I ascribe to. But also on the other end, there's
(19:50):
this superpower model, which I think that borders on toxic
positivity when you say that ADHD as a whole is
a super is a superpower and and a lot of
adhds in the community have an allergic reaction to that
with good reason, because it undermines the support that is
required for people with ADHD. If everyone just believes that
(20:10):
we're all superheroes because we have ADHD, then we won't
get the right support, the right accommodations that we need.
From when we're a child to when we're adults. So
I paint the two extremes because there are a lot
of people who sit on each end of that extreme.
I think it's important to take a balanced approach, and
it's the approach that we take at Shimmer as well,
where you do have challenges as a person with ADHD,
(20:32):
and those challenges are important to be aware of, but
it doesn't mean you need to solve all of them.
You don't need to sit there saying I have bad memory.
I need to solve that problem. I need to train
my brain to have better memory, because I'm never going
to have great memory. That's just not going to happen
for me. And that's okay, I accept that. And instead
it's contextual. So maybe I don't want to be in
(20:54):
a job where I'm playing Jeopardy or whatever. We ever quiet, Yeah, yeah,
exactly right, And so there's other ways to approach it.
But then on the other hand, people with ADG and
all people, not just people with ADCH, but people with
ADCH don't often realize this is that they have strengths.
And there are strengths that are common for people with
ADHD around creativity, around nonlinear thinking. Even impulsivity can be
(21:19):
something that is positive, like for entrepreneurship. Sometimes you do
need that impulsivity to be able to take risks that
other people won't take. So every kind of weakness oftentimes
has like a strength on the other side. And so
I think it's important to take a balanced view to
who you are as a whole. And then on top
of that, I think a big part of our approach,
and one of the first things I realized needed to
(21:42):
happen as an ADHDER is before even doing all that,
you really need to define where you want to go
as a person. And people with ADHD have impaired prospective memory,
which is basically looking into the future. We often just
spin our wheels faster and faster in no particular direction,
which again is probably relatable to a lot of people.
(22:02):
And so the first thing we do in coaching is
help people think about where they want to go in
the future. And so for some people that'll be a
really hard activity because if you've never thought of it,
and for some people it'll be easier. So once you
define that, then it becomes easier to say, do we
really need to fix all the challenges that you have
to get there, or do we maybe need to like
(22:22):
switch gears a little bit, or are there certain strengths
that you can be able to draw and to move
you closer to that future that you envision. And so
both of those two things, in terms of looking into
the future and then taking steps to get there that's
more aligned with your strengths and challenges together creates an
entire system that helps you just live a life that
you're more calm, happy, fulfilled, feeling well, whatever you want
(22:46):
to define as your kind of objective function.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
It just sounds like a very realistic approach, Like there's
no like, there's no extremes in that of like either
this is a superpower or like stomp out every single
thing about yourself that you don't like, which, yeah, personally,
I think is like, you know, the middle ground is
often the best in terms of these things, Like the
(23:09):
balance of things is always where you find like the
most piece. I guess, which is what you're.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Saying exactly, And I think that, I mean, we all
know how social media and algorithms work. Actually, I recently
listened to a Mel Robbins episode that had research that
was so interesting that talked about how all of the
perspectives on the Internet were actually mostly written by like
ten percent of people, and those ten percent of people
generally fall in extremes. We are all scared to go
(23:35):
against what we think is the popular opinion, so we
see those opinions and we decide to ascribe to one
of them, and that's how a lot of polarization happens.
And I think within the ADHD community, this polarization is
also at least we all perceive it to be happening,
but I think there are probably more people in the
middle than we think.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah, Okay, we're gonna take a short break, but when
we return, we're going to talk some ADHD friendly strategies
for work, for love for life, So stay with us.
So I had this listener reach out to me the
other day and she was like, I really want to
(24:15):
know how I can manage my executive dysfunction as somebody
with ADHD, and I kind of have to be like,
I don't really know, but let me get back to you.
Let me ask someone who does know. So one of
some of the strategies that you've used to help yourself
with deadlines, with focus, with burnout in your career.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah, so the first half of my answer is going
to be an unpopular one because people always want hacks,
But it is so important to first identify where exactly
you are going and because you might not need to
fix the thing that you think you need to fix.
So I will first say that and get that out
of the way, even though nobody will listen to me
because people always want the hacks. So for me, some
(24:59):
of the things that have been and the most helpful
is first one is the reframe that not everything needs,
not all the solutions need to come from me doing
something different internally. It a lot of it, and it's
easier is if you set up your life to be different,
because then it's a gift that keeps on giving. So
(25:19):
that might be setting up your environment in a certain
way that is conducive for you to be able to focus.
It might be having a specific room in your house
where you're working in another room where you never work
in and then that helps trigger your brain into I'm
in work mode and I'm not in work mode. And
it might be having certain systems that your whole family
(25:41):
knows about. So one that is really common is people
who work from home, which is a lot of people
now when they're writing, they will put a little sign
on their door where their kid and their partner all
know that this means like I'm in deep writing mode,
and so they don't get that distraction. So again, all
of these I'm giving like little examples because it all
comes from working back from what your challenges and what
your goal is. So if these things don't work for you,
(26:04):
I would not also abandon them. You need to think
about how you can implement that better in your life.
And so that kind of brings me to another one
that has been so helpful for me is learning what
your motivators are and then injecting that into your work. So,
for example, for me, novelty and accountability are two of
(26:25):
my strongest motivators. So when I can't get something done,
I ask myself, Okay, what is a way that I
can put accountability into it? Do I have to say
with my co founder that in our next working session
he needs to check in with me on this, Like
that's accountability or for novelty, do I've been wanting to
do this thing for a long time and I can't
do it. Do I need to do it on Canva
(26:46):
and put it in pink instead of doing it on
em now and then just move it later on. So
really understanding first what are your motivators, and that you
can figure out by looking backwards at let's say a
week or a day. If you can't think back at
a week and think about what are the moments of
the day that you were most excited and most motivated
and think through what was there for you. So the
(27:09):
most common ones are novelty, interest, passion, accountability, urgency. Those
are some of the ones that are common for people
with ADHD, but you might discover that there are other
motivators for you as well. And then the third thing
I will say that has been so helpful for me
is energy management. So people with ADG have generally a
(27:30):
late set circuit rhythm. They sleep, want to sleep later,
and work up later. We also have more erratic energy
bursts throughout the day, and for a long time I
tried to fight against that and just you have these
narratives in your head of like I should be able
to be as consistent as everyone else, like why can't
I work from nine till five? And then there's these
other days where you just work for like twelve fourteen
(27:52):
dollars straight you knock out like a whole weeks of work,
and then the next day you can't do your nine
to five and you wonder why, well, because you've just
knocked out a whole week of work the day before.
So really learning what your energy looks like, what times
of the day you are energized, and maybe putting deep
work during that time, what times of the day you
are in maybe more of a crash boat, and maybe
(28:13):
you want to do a walk outside because you know
that that really brings you up. And also, if you're
a woman, oftentimes, depending on your hormonocycle, your energy won't
look the same throughout the month. So that awareness again
and then matching that awareness with what sort of tasks
go in there. And so the meta kind of message
here is really figuring out how you can work with
(28:34):
your brain and body instead of fighting against it, because
oftentimes we fight against it because we think that we
need to do things in a way that we've just
seen other people do. And when we listen to how
other people like the tips that other people put out there,
they're generally from people who are neurotypical who and it
generally is the average thing that works for everyone. And
if you have ADHD, you're generally not super average.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Yeah, probably not. I want to talk about that. Adds
one word you mentioned, which was urgency, And yeah, how
urgency plays a role in ADHD personally? I feel like
I've read a lot of research that like the urgency
effect is a lot stronger. So people with ADHD often
(29:18):
prefer working under a tight deadline. How do you how
do you suggest people manage that when they also, you know,
want to be proactive about not being stressed right up
to the time that something is due, or doing something
the best that they can do it rather than the
fastest they can do it. How do they kind of
navigate that like the complexity of like wanting to do
(29:40):
it in the moment when you have the most adrenaline
and wanting.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
To do it.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Well.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Yeah, so that's a really tough one because we all
know that we do things better like with ADHD, that
we do things better at the last minute. But the
problem is you probably face a large degree of shame
leading up to that that moment where for maybe weeks
or months, you are thinking about the thing, and you
are thinking about how you're just not doing the thing
(30:08):
and how bad you are and how you should be
doing it, and that just weighs on you. And that
is a really really large cost, and so it's different
for each person. If you feel like that cost is
not big, not big for you, one option is do
I have heard of people who are like I just
accept that I do things at the last minute, and
I will do it. And it depends on what job
you have as well. Some people are able to do that,
some people aren't. So I'll first say that, like, you
(30:29):
might not need to solve it. Maybe you need to
solve the part where you're ruminating, and maybe you need
to solve the urgency part really figuring out which part
you need to solve. But if you do want to
not do things at the very last minute, which I
generally can't in my job, the way that I've done
it is one way is by building in like micro
urgency moments using my motivators. So again similar examples before.
(30:54):
If I know that there's a big project that's due,
I try not to make I try when I do
the project planning part, I try to build in multiple
smaller urgency moments for me. So I will do a
meeting maybe a quarterway through where I know I need
someone's feedback and they're waiting for my for what I have,
and we've communicated ahead of time that on this day
we're going to talk about this thing. And that for
(31:16):
me is enough for me to be able to do
that quarter of the work because I have that pre
set out for me. And if you have the I
would say privilege, let's say, if you have an assistant
or if using SUSPREI tool, having them be able to
do that for you because they know that you need that.
And setting the meeting if there's a meeting in my calendar,
and I know everyone's different. For me, if there's a
(31:36):
meeting in my calendar, I will prepare for it. If
there's no meeting my calendar, I won't prepare for it.
So and if there's a meeting with someone else, I
will more likely prepare for a while. So just really
pulling on all of those your own motivators and then
building in extra urgency moments is really helpful. And then
another thing is really just a lot of the times
we do something. Let's say we wait until the last
(31:59):
minute and then we do this thing really stressfully and
then we say, oh my gosh, I'm never doing this again.
This is so stressful. I hate this, and then within
a month you forget, You totally forget that learning that
is so common, not just for this example, but so
many examples. So I think one thing that's also really
important is finding your own way of making sure you
capture the things that you've learned in the past. And
(32:22):
so I mean with me, I use Schimmer, but it's
not just negative and like learnings, but also wins. So
I have a folder in my phone and in my
laptop and in my email. I have three different ones
that I capture, like testimonials, photos when someone sends me
an Instagram comment that says that, like my ex video
has changed their life. And because I need reminders of
(32:42):
those things because on days where I'm not doing so hot,
I will forget and I'll be like wow, like all
this is for nothing and nobody. I've not changed anyone's life,
and I've just been here working myself off for no reason.
And so I get these narratives in my head, and
when I can just look at these pictures or look
at these messages, it reminds me and kind of grounds
(33:04):
me in the past. Because it's harder for people with
ADHD to remember the past, especially when they're in like
an emotionally dysregulated moment.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yeah, I can. I can only imagine how tricky that
would be, just being like, oh, I can never remember
a good thing that anyone said to me. Like the
the intersection of like self esteem in ADHD is like
a whole nother conversation. I had a friend who actually,
speaking of like the urgency stuff and meeting deadlines at
the start of every single semester when we were at UNI,
(33:35):
he would go through all the core syllabuses and then
put all of the deadlines in his in his calendar
three days beforehand, and he kind of was like, I'm
going to use my memory, the fact that I know
I'm not going to have great memory recall to like
and some of them he'd do like three some of them,
and he'd do like five. Some of them he'd do
like two days beforehand. One day beforehand. He was like,
(33:58):
I'm just gonna, you know, go and you know, trust
that I'm not going to remember which ones I did
for which of these. I'm just going to trust what's
in my calendar and get it done at this state
so that by the time that rolls around, like I
get to feel the urgency. I finished the work, and
then I have like a day to edit, or have
like a day to fix it, or I just submit
(34:19):
and I'm like happily surprised by the fact that the
deadline hasn't passed yet. I feel like for some people
that wouldn't work, but I saw it work incredibly well
for him. It was like, honestly, I was like watching
it being like, how do you just lie to yourself
like that? And like it was so weird, Like he
knew that it was a lie, and he would still
believe it even like it was just the most interesting
(34:41):
thing that he'd found, like this hack for his brain.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
I love that. Yeah, he's I mean, he's externalizing his memory.
And also once he gets there, even though he knows,
it's still a lot of effort to do the calculation
and exactly. Yeah, it's kind of like when I think
a lot of people did this. It's not just an
ADHD thing. But when I was younger, my clerk was
always five minutes ahead. I put all my clocks five
minutes ahead, and I knew it was a lie, But
(35:07):
you just don't, like, I'm not constantly calculating the time
so I just end up getting to places I think
five minutes. I thought I would be there five minutes early,
but then i'd be there on time, which is perfect, Oh.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
My god, perfect. Yeah. See I never did that because
I just knew. I was like, well that's not the truth.
But then again, like I had executive function where I
can just be like, oh, I'll just get there.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
So it's like interesting, how like maybe, yeah, it's just
so interesting how different people do those things. I want
to talk about love. I want to start by talking
about rejection sensitivity. This is a word that I hear
in regards to ADHD all the time. I've done an
episode on it before. I have, I think a pretty
general knowledge of it. Can you talk us through it?
(35:49):
Why is it so common amongst people with ADHD? And
I guess my third question, so sorry, three questions at once,
how can people manage it? But firstly, what is it?
Why is it common that we can talk about for
managing it?
Speaker 2 (36:02):
So, rejection sensitivity dysphoria, which is commonly known as RSD,
is essentially a phenomenon, I guess you can call it
where people with ADHD will feel like they're rejected by
other people. Or feel like there's negative sentiment coming towards them,
and it's defined as like real or perceived rejections. So
(36:23):
oftentimes it falls in that second category of perceived and
it's generally created through well one emotional dysregulation of us.
Just the moment we feel something, we like, jump on
that feeling, and then it becomes bigger and bigger, and
then we're kind of just swimming in that feeling or
or I guess. And it's also because we've had an
entire lifetime of people telling us that we were wrong,
(36:45):
are we doing it the wrong way? And then we've
internalized that and then we continue to tell ourselves that.
And so whenever there's like a small I guess like signal,
you feel like you've done something wrong. And so for me,
for example, like whenever I'm in an our argument with someone,
uh work or relationships, I will always think that I'm wrong,
(37:06):
like one hundred percent of the time that's my immediate reaction.
Sometimes people need to convince me, and this is happened
in relationships where they're like no, no, like let's have a
conversation about this. There's no right or wrong. We're just
trying to get to a understanding, and so I've been
I've been unlearning that I'm just like, oh, no, I
must have done something wrong, like you must hate me.
(37:27):
So it is for most people at ATDHD, this lifelong unlearning,
and especially in like logically, I know in people's situations
it's there's no there's often not like a wrong, but
I just feel that way, and so I guess you're
second part of the question of like what people can
do with it?
Speaker 3 (37:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
One really for me that's been most helpful and I
have been working on with coaching. That comes up for
a lot of our members too, is really understanding like
what your triggers are and what sort of situations these
come up with come up in the most And this
actually goes for not just RSD, but also impulsivity. It's
the same thing where I do a lot of impulsive,
(38:06):
stupid things and I don't realize it's wrong and it's
hurt people until after it's done and people communicate it
to me. And for both of those things, what I
worked on with my coach is separately for those two things,
understanding what situations do those commonly happen in, and just
the awareness of that when you're about to step into
a situation like that, Like for example, with impulsivity, maybe
(38:28):
it's drinking, and you can have that pep talk with
yourself to say, okay, like I'm entering this situation with awareness,
and so you can it could be awareness that your
RSD might be triggered. It could be awareness that you
might do something impulsive, so that you can put and
it's the same solution again. You can put that pause.
So when someone says something and you immediately your brain
(38:50):
starts spiraling, you need to get into the practice of
putting the pause. And same with impulsivity. When you're about
to have an impulsive moment and you just need to
figure out how to put the pause. The best thing
you can do for yourself is understanding when that generally happens,
because it's it's not random for each person. It's going
to be in different situations where that happens. And so
really just knowing in this situation, these sorts of conversations
(39:15):
generally make me feel this way, and if that happens,
I'm going to do this. And if you have that
plan beforehand, when you're calm and collected and you've written
that down, ideally I used to have. I think when
I first hearded this exercise, I used to have a
sticky note and I would like put it in my
closet where I would like get dressed before going out,
where I would more likely to drink. And so really
(39:35):
just like putting it where you would need to see
it to remind yourself of that, and over time you'll
need to remind yourself less because your brain is kind
of trained to go trigger and then thought and then
like being able to block that thought.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
It's like putting yourself in a waiting room. That's like
what that sounds like to me. I'm like, okay, before
we react, or like before we do something like forcing
your self to like sit with it for a.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Little bit exactly, and knowing when you might need to
be in that waiting room, because yeah, when you're emotionally dysregulated,
you might not be able to put yourself in that
waiting room. So like basically giving your brain an auto pilot,
saying like, if this happens, I go to a waiting room.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Yeah, it's like if then, which I love and I
just like can't imagine what it would feel like to
be Like everybody who says something slightly rude or just
slightly off or not even like you just interpret them.
It's like not liking you. My friend actually told me
about this rule, which is like the twenty five percent rule,
which is there is like, actually only a small amount
(40:39):
of people, maybe twenty five percent of people who you
will never convince not to like you, or who you
will never convince to like you. Sorry, that's what I
should say, never convinced to like you. And that's like
one in four, which might sound like a huge number,
but it's just kind of like doing the math of like, actually,
not every single person could possibly not like me, but
(41:03):
also I'm down to accept that maybe like a quarter
of them will, and that's just a certainty that everyone's
going to find themselves in. So I don't know if
that's also helpful, but yeah, I would just be wild.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Yeah, And I think the other thing is I often,
whenever I have a feeling RSD is one of them,
I often think that it's less of a reflection on
the other person, and it's usually a reflection on myself.
So I would say the other tip that I would
have is if you think that everyone's having some sort
of negative thought towards yourself, it might not be, but
(41:37):
I would challenge to think if you maybe have that
negative thought towards yourself, and so yeah, that is the case,
then you need to do the work to be able
to reinforce your strengths, reinforce pass wins, to really build
up your self confidence, which is is a practice of
building self confidence of continuing to put yourself out there
and seeing that things are going to go well for
(41:58):
you and that you can handle these situation. And so
as you build up your self confidence, you will find
that these situations, you'll less likely feel like other people
don't like you because you back yourself so hard. And
that's such a long journey, right, but like you want
to get to the point where you back yourself so
hard that you wouldn't think that they don't like you.
(42:18):
But even if you had all the signals and they
didn't like you, it wouldn't even impact you because it
doesn't matter because you back yourself so much.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Yeah, which I love. I'm like, this is something I
find even in someone without ADHD. It's like the things
that sting the most are the things that you think
might be true exactly, And that's that's something that is
for everybody so it's like, yes, where is that pain
coming from? I want to talk about a bit more
about relationships as well, and maybe some of the common
(42:48):
hurdles or pitfalls that people with ADHD might find when
they're falling in love or even in friendship.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah, so I did a whole series called ADHG Go
Feels and add Toogle dates on this, so it's really
fun if you want to check it out. But I think,
like in the early stages, one of the really common ones,
which is a interesting one because I do this and
I've been done this too, is definitely around love bombing.
(43:16):
This comes up so frequently because it's related to emotional
dysregulation in that when we fall for someone, it's very
common that we fall for them, like really hard, and
then we ignore all the signals, even if there's red
flags or whatever it is, and we pour so much
love in them that it can also sometimes scare people away.
(43:36):
So even in a relationship where it could have worked,
maybe you just freak them out because you came on
too hard, and so that in itself can be a challenge.
But also then there's this transition of like when you
finish the initial dysregulated love bombing, it can feel jarring
to your partner when you suddenly like change the way
(43:58):
that you act. And I know everyone goes through a
little bit of this, but I think with each years
we feel this more and it's very common, this full
love bombing thing. I think love bombs obviously not the
official term for it, but everything get is heightened, and
this is a very sensitive moment where it is sometimes
helpful to be aware of that and then make sure
(44:19):
you're I mean, it's your choice if you want to
try to control it and slow it down. I think
a lot of people give advice to slow it down.
I actually just find it important to communicate. For me,
I actually enjoy the really strong I'm falling ahead over
my feels heels feeling. I just will explain to the
person that this happens to me, I think this is
(44:41):
what's happening, and just keeping the communication open so that
they're aware that I'm aware of this and we're kind
of a decision together. But I know a lot of
people do give the advice to there's tactics to essentially
like kind of like draw that love period out longer
so that you can be able to explore things in
a more calm way. So I think it's really person dependent.
(45:04):
Obviously there's no right answer.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
And what do you think or from experience, what happens
after like the love high kind of crashes, Like I
feel like that state where you know there may be
love bombing that maybe intensity like can only last for
so long. What happens then? Is it a case of
like you get bored or you get confused, or you
(45:30):
think you've fallen out of love with them? Yeah, what
does that feeling feel like.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
A lot of the times it does. It does feel
like boredom. And I think that there's a process of
figuring out if it's because of the person in your
relationship that isn't actually right and you were just stuck
in all the feelings, or if you haven't found a
way to potentially value and fall in love with the
other parts of a relationship which are maybe not the
(45:58):
same as the parts of the relationship in the beginning.
And it also I think a lot of the times too,
because you fell so hard, you weren't thinking very critically
about things like for example, most of my neurotypical friends
I actually know that they have this list of like
no negotiables and things we're in a relationship and all
of those things, and I always thought it was kind
(46:20):
of interesting because I was like, oh, there's no point
in me making that because I've actually never chosen a
relationship that I've been in. I've just fallen into it.
I don't know why I would have.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
That list, when would I use it.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
But I did actually recently create the list because my
co founder, who is neurotypical, he had this list and
we were talking about it and I was like, Okay,
I'll try to create the list, and so it was
helpful going through the thought process around it. But I'm
just not sure if I would use it in the
same way that are able to use it in the
(46:52):
same because I'm not as level headed going into a relationship.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
Yeah, which I feel like could be both so much
fun and super scary, and you're like, yeah, I'm just
here for the for the ride, like wherever this goes,
Like I kind of know I might not be in
control for the first little bit, which I don't know.
You said you enjoyed the feeling, so it kind of
sounds fine.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Yeah, I do enjoy it, but I definitely have gone
through phases where I had like pretty strong fears of
what if I can ever be in a long term relationship,
what if I'm only good at this beginning part. So
those are definitely things that I have thought about. I'm
currently in my first ever ADHD ADHD relationship. I've alw
(47:37):
AHD neurotypical relationships, so I'm starting to change my mind
about things because we talk really openly about ADHD symptoms
and we communicate through it, so it's felt different. So
I'm hopeful.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
I'm hopeful for you as well. Okay, we're gonna take
one more shortbreak, but when we return, I'm gonna kind
of talk a bit more. I want to talk more
about this relationship that you're in and how you're managing it,
and also you know some tips for people who are
diagnosed and just for tips for people in their twenties
in general, So stay with us. Okay, So you mentioned
(48:20):
during your first ADHD ADHD relationship, how is that different
from dating somebody who is neurotypical if you want to
talk about it, of course.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
Yeah, yeah, of course I have thought about this a lot,
and I actually, coming into this relationship, I thought that
I had to be in an adh G neuorotypical relationship
one me.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
And my co founder is neurotypical. So even from a
business perspective, I've always thought, Okay, we have different skills,
we have different strengths, and together we are stronger. And
I do think I still do believe in that. But
I used to believe that it couldn't be a different way.
And so now I'm in an adhdadd relationship and there's
different pros cons. I think, obviously there's certain things where
(49:03):
we are both going to be bad at and therefore
it's going to be harder to get done, like chores
or lock things around the house. But I think the
pros is that there's so many things I didn't realize
until I was in an ADHDADHD relationship that I used
to need to at least explain and try to explain
myself because it looked like I was either being lazy
(49:24):
or careless, or I didn't love them or whatever. There's
a lot of misinterpretations or even worse than that, A
lot of the times I would not even try to explain.
I would just feel like I was going to get
judged for something and therefore just not do it. Versus now,
I think in a lot of situations. We will just
talk about things like the communication will just be more
(49:45):
open and I will be more comfortable sharing things because
I know that she'll have a similar either a similar
perspective or or at least understand that perspectives are different.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
Yeah, I feel like it'd be so comforting just being like, oh,
I don't have to I don't eat, Like you have
some of the same knowledge as me, and.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
We can laugh about things that we can laugh at
ourselves rather than laughing at the other person. But yeah,
it's been It's also been hard for me to untangle
because this is also my first queer relationship, So some
things I'm like, I'm not sure if this is coming
from interesting part or the I'm dating a woman part.
(50:32):
So it's like, is.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
It easier because it's ADHD or because like, yeah, women
just tend to have more planning skills. Yeah, that's interesting,
or like tend to just like be easier to work
with slash be with.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Yeah. Yeah, it's like I wish from a scientific perspective,
if these could have happened in two steps, that would
have been helpful.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
But no, that's so funny. I love that you wanted
to control group. That's so me, I don't I get
what you mean. This is another thing that's like my
second final question has been coming to the end of
this episode. How do you deal with or how do
you think people with ADHD can deal with this feeling
(51:12):
that they are too much, that they are too much
for love, they're too much for the workplace, they're too
much in friendship, they're too much for their family. Have
you like kind of had to overcome that in your
own life, and like how did you kind of go
about it?
Speaker 2 (51:26):
Yeah, So I always thought I was too much, and
I just as I mentioned at the beginning, I kind
of just accepted that I was a bad kid. And
even in my first job in consulting, I was told that, oh,
your your work is really great, but you're I think
(51:47):
even some point they said I was doing too much.
I was doing a lot of pro bono and volunteering
stuff and they're like, that's not the point of your job.
And then I was doing too much like social and
culture stuff. And also I wasn't being like reliable and
consistent in enough. So I think it's a big it's
actually a mix up in too much and not enough,
which is kind of ironic, but you constantly feel like
(52:07):
you're in one of those two buckets. You're either too
much or not enough. And so for me, one big
the thing that has been really helpful honestly has just
been changing my environment. As a entrepreneur. You're never too much.
You're expected to be too much, so you're expected to
push the boundaries. You're expected to be really inspirational and
(52:27):
loud and be doing a bunch of things, and so
that really helped because the expectation is just different. And
then the other thing is like speaking about relationships. Even
in relationships, I always felt like I was either too
much or not enough. And I think in this current relationship,
we've had this conversation many times, and I think it's
(52:47):
because she also has ADHD, but she's also too much
quote unquote, and so I think it just changes the
barometer because everything is contextual right. Too much is like
too much for what, too much compared to neurotypical people,
too much compared to what's expected of you. So if
you can change the comparison point, then you no longer
(53:08):
become too much. You just become different than other people
around you. But everywhere is different in a different way.
So I think if you have the privilege to change
the context around you, the environment around you, that's generally easier.
And there's a lot of members who come to us
even at Shimmer, they'll say things like, Oh, I just
(53:29):
like want to be productive because I'm not productive enough,
I'm not organized enough. And then turns out what actually
would make them happy is just placing them in a
different environment or a different job, or having a different
sort of system so such that they don't need to
do all the high horse power work that they think
is required to be able to get to where they want.
So really questioning those aspects. And then the other piece,
(53:51):
which I know I've touched on a lot, is just
finding your way to build up self assurance and self confidence. Yeah,
and the like the little tactics I talked about about
keeping your winds really handy, keeping making sure the people
around you are really supportive, And a lot of it
starts with leadership as well. Uh, if you are gassing
(54:13):
up the people around you and leading by example and
they think about it, they're probably gonna gas you up back.
So a lot of the times we sit here wishing
that like the world was different, But if you just
do how I mean, there's like the cliche like treating
other people how you want to be treated, but it
really works. Three examples. It's a cliche for that way
(54:33):
to make someone do someone something that you want them
to do is for you to do it, and they
just they see it and they're like, oh okay, but
if you tell them that they should do it, they're
not going to do it.
Speaker 1 (54:45):
Yeah, it's like a total that's like I can confirm
according to psychology that it's like a very real effect.
And also if you do something for them, they're more
likely to like you as well. And if you do
something like and you're more likely to like them. Like
it's this whole interaction of like reciprocity. Like I've had
this feeling recently where I'm like I started to understand
(55:07):
why cliches are cliches, and that one like treat people
how you want to be treated is like one of
my favorites. When I'm like, oh god, that's so wise,
Like they were so right on that one.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
Yeah. There in my So, I went to my for
a undergrad I did business school and I had a
negotiations class, and I don't remember anything from any of
my classes. I have no memory, but this one really
stuck with me, and they gave us this one talking
point where when someone where when you do something for
someone and they say thank you, you tell them, oh,
(55:39):
no problem at all. I know you'd do the same
for me, and you're like reinforcing reciprocity.
Speaker 1 (55:43):
I was like, leaky, see there here, guys, a little
bit of manipulation, doesn't it can't go far enough. I
have one final question for you. What is one piece
of advice? This is a question we ask everybody. What
is one piece of advice that you would have for
people in the twenties that has nothing to do with
(56:04):
what we talked about today, nothing to do with ADHD,
nothing to do with yeah, any of the things we
touched on.
Speaker 2 (56:09):
Just a piece of advice from you to them. I,
based on my experience, I would say, just experiment and
have fun. I think that oftentimes we take everything a
little bit too seriously and we get lost in things
that we later on decide weren't even important to us
to begin with. So what that looks like for me
(56:32):
is really just doing some work figuring out kind of
what your values are. They might change over time, but
just doing putting a little bit thought behind them, and
then just ensuring you're living semi accordingly to them, and
then just experimenting, because sometimes you do you don't really
know what you're going to like or if something's going
to feel good for you unless you actually unless you
try it. And a lot of the times people get
(56:55):
caught up too early picking a path, and especially I
know you said, don't say ADHD, but especially no No no,
who are super who are like multipotential lights and they
have lots of hobbies. And we're told by society that
you need to pick one career and know your purpose
and just do it for the rest of your life.
And if you have that narrative in your head, it
(57:16):
is really difficult because who knows when they're eighteen what
they want to do. And I think that's yeah, really changing.
Speaker 1 (57:23):
I honestly think that's like one of the biggest mistakes
that society has made is making people decide so young.
I just feel like there's so many, so much unhappiness,
and so many people who become like obsessed with the
wrong things like money and like wealth or like status
because like what they chose at eighteen was meant to
be the thing they had to do for the rest
(57:43):
of their life. So I love that advice and I
totally resonate with it. Well, I want to say thank
you so much for coming on, even as someone who
doesn't have any HD, I actually loved some of those
tips just for like genuine as, like as someone who
works by themselves and can get distracted very easily. Like
they're just so helpful. Where can people find you and
(58:05):
where can people find shimmer?
Speaker 2 (58:08):
Shimmer is at Shimmer dot care and I'm at INSTAGRAMADHD
dot Crystal, and yeah, just head to our website. That's
the easiest way to learn about what we do, whether
you or someone you know has ADHD. We have the
ADHD for Adults program, and then we have the ADHD
for Teens program, so all sorts of behavioral supports and
(58:30):
community supports. The goal is really just for everyone with
ADHD to reach their full potential and also reach it
in their own way that works for them.
Speaker 1 (58:40):
Which I just think is amazing. Well, it was such
a pleasure to have you on board. Remember guys to
go and check Chris out and all of her work.
It's fantastic And if you enjoyed this episode, give us
a five star review, share it with a friend who
you think might need to hear it, and follow us
on Instagram at that Psychology podcast if you want to
(59:02):
give any feedback, if you have any further questions or
thoughts about this episode or any other episodes, if you
want us to expand on anything we talked about, or
if you just want to see behind the scenes, we'd
love to have you over there. But until next time,
stay safe, bekind, be gentle to yourself. We will talk
very very soon.
Host
Jemma Sbeghen
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