March 9, 2023 • 52 mins
This week we dive into the psychology behind hookup culture and casual dating in our 20’s. We are joined by the host of The Openhouse Podcast, Louise Rumball, as we discuss the cultural and societal changes that have contributed to this sexual liberation, what happens to our brain during and after a hookup, empowering ourselves through pleasure but also healthy boundaries and the science and personal stories behind why casual dating may not be for everyone. Listen now!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the podcast where we talk through some of the big
life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
mean for our psychology. Before we jump in, I just
want to note this episode involves discussions around sex, so
(00:29):
listener discretion is advised. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.
Welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. It
is so amazing to have you here. Back for another episode,
one that I am very very excited about. We have
a very special guest coming on board who I will
(00:50):
introduce too soon. But today we're going to talk about
hookup culture in out twenties. It is so relevant our
twenties or a time for sexual exploration, casual dating, casual hookups.
I think for most of us, I would say we
have had some experience in this area, be that just
(01:10):
making out with someone at a party or something more intimate.
It is, I would say, a fairly normal part of
growing up, of our learning experience, discovering what we like,
what our limits are, what we're into, what kind of
dating we enjoy, what kind of relationships we enjoy. But maybe,
like me, you come out of it feeling kind of worthless,
(01:33):
maybe wanting more. It's definitely not for everyone, and I
really want to talk about how hookup culture doesn't always
line up to that empowered ideology we've been told. It's
obviously an entirely personal preference. So no need to be
ashamed of if you are a fan of hook up culture,
if you're not. It is for everyone to make their
(01:55):
own opinion. And as Louise, our guest always says, everything
today is delivered in a sex positive way. Do what
you want. We're not here to shame anyone more so,
just kind of explore this kind of dynamic and the
cultural sexual phenomena of hookup culture and kind of deep
dive into the psychology. So we're going to talk about
(02:18):
the origins of hook up culture, howard has emerged from
many social and cultural transitions, why some people are more
into hookups and casual sex than others, how it makes
us feel our brains on casual sex, and how you
can go about navigating this sometimes complicated terrain of hookup culture.
(02:42):
But without further ado, I would love to introduce oored
special guest Louise, would you like to say Hi, Hi everyone,
Thank you so much, for having me on your podcast.
I am so so enamored and obsessed by all of
the work you do, and just to everyone listening, I
think it's so cool that you're listening. I think there
(03:03):
is nothing sexier, cooler, more amazing than like doing the
self work and looking inwards. So I'm so excited to
go on this journey with you today. I have so
much to share. It's going to be it's going to
be a fun one. And I love how you bring
the science and the psychology and all of the sources.
You know, very trustworthy, reliable. So can't wait and thank you. Yeah,
(03:24):
I am so excited. I feel like we're going to
have a bit of an overshare today. For those of
you who don't know, Louise is the host of an
incredible podcast called open House or the open House Podcast.
You talk a lot about, you know, the intersections between relationships,
and you talk about therapy, you talk about sex, you
talk about pop culture, so many amazing things. So I
(03:45):
think you are the perfect guest for this episode. Thank you. Yeah,
I've definitely got a lot of stories in the dating world,
the sex world, the good, the bad, the sad. You know,
I've cried so many times after sex, Like we're going
to just get into the realities today but also also
the beautiful. I think we're going to cover everything, and
I'm really excited to see where this goes with you today. Yeah, well,
(04:08):
I think that's one of those things right where we
all know that hookup culture is part of our even
our teenagers, but definitely our twenties for those of us
who choose to partake as I know that both of
you and I have at various points in our life,
but there is still, I think some stigma but also
not always a clear or a bit of an ambiguous
(04:30):
understanding around what it does to our brains, why we
leave certain casual sexual dating interactions feeling really worthless about ourselves.
But I think it's also important to acknowledge that we
have experienced these massive cultural and societal shifts recently. You know,
(04:51):
it previously used to be that casual sex was not
permissible you got married, you had children, if you're a
hetero person, and you had sex within the confines of
a married relationship, And there has been that massive shift recently. Like,
I'm sure that's something you can speak to as well, Like,
(05:11):
what do you think some of those major reasons are
behind why this process has kind of taken place. Definitely.
I mean, you're right with the massive social and cultural shifts,
and I think that so much of that has been
driven by not only like the sexual liberation move in
the sixties, where people started to really you know, let
go of those constraints that people had lived with for
(05:33):
so long and move more into this space of freedom
and love and also like acceptance of their bodies and
really like leaning into that, which I think is really beautiful.
I think that set the foundations for this, But there's
still stigma around that. Right if you look back at
the nineteen sixties, you know, it's like, oh, flower power,
like everyone was like having sex with everyone. Like the
(05:54):
way that we talk about it is still with an
angle or like a lens of shame, which I think
is so interesting. But what I also think is so
interesting is that I think that culture today has romanticized
and fantasized all of this. Like if you watch a movie,
they fall in love, they kiss, they have sex. You
(06:15):
never hear them talking about like do you want to
do this? Like have you got protection? Like what are
we going to be after this? You never see any
of these discussions. It's just this romance whirlwind, and you know,
we just have picked that up from as young as
you can remember, with every movie, every relationship, celebrity relationship
(06:36):
that we've ever looked at. I just feel like the
media around us has sort of romanticized this whole hook
up culture, and sometimes the truth is that it isn't
It isn't quite as romantic as we want it to be. Oh,
I totally agree, and like the point you make about
how the meat if we get a lot of our
sexual education from the media. But I think you have
an amazing point. Right, we had that sexual revolution, birth
(07:00):
control became more accessible so you didn't have to worry
about unwanted pregnancies out of wedlock. But I feel like
we still have those very traditional concepts about what a
relationship should look like. We're still very much a monogamous society,
with the majority of us would say that we want
a monogamous relationship. We think about marriage, we want to
(07:22):
have children in a stable relationship. That's still something that's
very much ingrained with us within us. But our kind
of values and our attitudes towards sex haven't have kind
of sped up a little bit further in that process,
and we haven't really been able to catch up in
that sense. And it's all been, like you said, actually
romanticized by these movies, which show like someone falling onto
(07:47):
the bed with their like really hot movie star partner
that they just met in the bar, and like they
just like have this crazy sex and it's always really
really good and really fulfilling. I don't think I've ever
seen a scene in a TV show, in a movie
where there has been the like what are we conversation
(08:07):
never or like someone's been like talking to their friends
around like oh, like I hooked up with this guy
once and now I like have lots of regrets and
or I feel really bad, and you know, most of
the time their friends are like, oh yeah, like single
girl sleigh like oh like like go for it, like
you've left your husband whatever. There's all these tropes around it,
and we haven't really caught up to that. And like
(08:28):
I know that you've you've spoke about this before and
when we've spoken about this before, but casual sex or
casual even just like cook ups, like making out with someone,
like cuddling someone, doing anything else can leave us feeling
kind of empty in a way that isn't always seen
in kind of the glamorized movies that we've watched them
Two Children. Yeah, and just to build on that, because
(08:50):
you've mentioned cuddling, and I think this is one of
the things that I've done a lot in my own therapy,
but also spoken about on my podcast, is that often
I find, I don't know if you've experienced this, that sometimes, honestly,
looking back at a hookup, all I actually wanted was
a cuddle. Like sometimes all I wanted was like some intimacy,
to maybe just be making out with them. You know,
(09:12):
it's so fun to be like hooking up with someone
in a bar or on a night out or on
a day or whatever that is. And then sometimes everything
sort of just runs away with you and everything picks
up speed and you don't really know this person, and
then it's kind of hard to have that conversation before
it happens, much like you said, And then it happens
whatever it is, whatever part of the encounter that is,
(09:35):
and then the next day, all of a sudden, you
wake up to the stark reality of, oh my goodness,
you know that actually all I wanted was a cuddle
and some attention and actually then the next day you
feel like really empty. And I think at some point
maybe we can go into what that empty feeling is
because everyone says, oh I feel empty or I felt used.
(09:55):
The truth is there's so much behind that, and it's
a really really important for us to just all unpack.
And sometimes you're right, you just want to cuddle. And
I think there is this expectation, right because we've become
more sexually liberated, which is an amazing, amazing thing, but
there is always this expectation of like, okay, intimacy equal sex.
(10:16):
Now intimacy equals some form of like yeah, sexual encounter,
which sometimes it's like we actually don't want that from someone.
We actually want platonic intimacy, or we want some other
form of intimacy. And I think it's also worth acknowledging
if you're listening to this being like, no part of
(10:36):
casual sex sounds good to me, or maybe you're someone
who's like, oh I love casual sex. This is super fulfilling.
That's also totally normal because I think people are really
different in kind of what we desire from our sex lives,
what we desire from our romantic kind of pursuits. I
was telling The Ways earlier about this personality measure out
(10:58):
called socio actuality, and it kind of measures whether someone
is going to be more inclined to engage in casual sex.
And it's a personality feature that each of us have
that we sit on a spectrum. So I have friends,
I'm sure you have friends the Ways, or maybe I've
even been this person at a point in my life
(11:19):
where like casual sex, short term relationships, no commitment, that
was something that was super interesting to me and something
that I was like, yeah, I'm a big fan of this.
But then there are other people who are like, oh,
this actually isn't where I stand. This is not what
I'm looking for when I go into these interactions, which
(11:40):
is like kind of shit when you're like, oh, maybe
I actually didn't want to do this, but the other person,
you know, there was this like expectation or like kind
of like this societal pressure. Like I think we've almost
turned away from slut shaming, of course it still exists
into this like very like sex is empowering, so you
should be having heaps of sex, and if you're not
(12:00):
having heaps of sex, like there's something about you that's undesirable,
like if you found that as well, like within your
friendship group or within your own life. Yeah, I think
it's so important to touch on this point of sexual liberation.
And you know, with the rise of feminism, like you said,
with the rise of birth control, there is this space
where we are stepping into a more empowered space where
(12:20):
it's like, oh, why should men be able to sleep
with ten people and no one bat an eyelid? One
hundred people and no one beat an eyelid, you know,
more well, whatever that number is, there's very little judging
around the man, and they might just be like, oh,
they're a fuck boy. Sorry, I don't know. If you
swear on your podcast, go for it, okay, faffort, you know,
oh they're a fuck boy. But then there's also this
(12:41):
kind of mentality that if they're the fuck boy, they're
kind of attractive and everyone's into them and everyone wants them,
whereas like that does not happen for us. And I
think that it's just really interesting that, you know, if
you look back to like Bridget and say, if you've
watched that TV program, the whole thing in that is
that you're waiting to be chosen by the man, you know,
(13:02):
the room full of women you're waiting to be chosen.
We're moving away from that today, where you're right, empowerment,
female empowerment. We can do whatever we want, and so
we should be able to. But the truth, the truth
is is that underneath that empowerment, I still don't think
we're having the truthful discussions around what do I actually
(13:23):
want here? And like you said, that point, that point
around intimacy is you might just want to cuddle, or
you might want to hook up but not have penetrative sex,
or because you know, for me, I'm I'm well, I'm
in a relationship now, but before I would have been
way more happy having a hook up that didn't involve
penetrative sex, because for me, I have more trauma around
(13:43):
that and I want to know someone and feel safe
with them, but I'd happily do other stuff. And then
I have friends who would sleep with a different guy
every weekend and it would it wouldn't FaZe them at all,
there would be no negative emotions coming up. So you're right,
We're also different and so unique, and I think it's
just about being really compassionate with our own story because
(14:05):
often we do have our own sex story, and often
it does come from a real like a place of
pain and you know, um, not being respected or doing
things we didn't want to do or regret or shame
or guilt. And when we are just a little bit
clearer and more compassionate with our own truth, I think
I think we can then say it's actually, like you said,
(14:27):
what do I want from this? You know, do I
actually just want a cuddle or a date and some flirting.
And I think it can help help us just manage
those boundaries a little bit better. And it's I'm reminded
of this quote I heard of the other day, was like,
just because it's empowering doesn't mean it leaves you feeling
empowered love that, which I just think, Yeah, it's so
(14:47):
it's so pertinent to this conversation, right, It's like, just
because society has told you that, you know, I think
we're specifically talking to women here or people who identify
as women. Um, just because society has told you that
to be empowered, you should be having casual sex. You
should be reclaiming the sexual narrative that has very much
(15:08):
and historically very much been in the favor of men.
Doesn't mean that you personally have to be on board
with that, like there are other ways that you can
feel liberated. And I feel like sometimes sexual freedom gets
confused with like sexual promiscuity, which is like super fair.
Like I would say that I'm a fairly promiscuous person
(15:30):
at this point in my life because that's my preference.
I think Louis has given me a clap. I'm capping
just like mainly for your honesty, because I felt like
in my twenties, like i'm older than you, I would
never be able to sit on a podcast and say, oh, yeah,
I'm in my promiscuous phase because I held so much
shame around being promiscuous because I did so many things
(15:51):
and I felt so regretful. But now like i'm older,
I'm exactly the same. Like that's why we're here talking
about this. But just to hear you, hear you say that,
I'm like, oh my goodness, this is this is a
healthy queen. Like I love to hear it. I love
to hear it you made. But I think that it's
it comes from like a point of like, Okay, I'm
in like whatever, my promiscuous error, but the thing is
(16:13):
that I'm not and even then I would say that
hook up culture still doesn't always benefit me because you
both have to be in the same mindset, if you
if this is a casual interaction for it to work.
Like I've had so many interactions in which I know
in my deepest of hearts that I am, I'm a
relationship girlie like I in my long in the long run,
(16:36):
would love commitment, would love a partner, would love someone
who I can trust and talk to um. But at
this point in my life, that's not something that's like,
is going to fit in with how busy I am
with my schedule, with my life priorities. But you know,
girls gotta eat. Girl's gotta eat, and we do have
biological needs, you know. And it's it's really like how
(16:56):
I think, I think just to your point, it's like,
what does empowerment mean to you? What does empower I
mean to you? Like for me, I've realized that empowerment
means protecting my energy, protecting my body until I feel
safe enough with someone and understand the truth of their
intentions that I can then share my body with them,
share my pleasure with them, share the experience with them,
(17:18):
And that for me is empowering. Whereas before, when I
was younger, I didn't have any of those things, so
I always went into the promiscuous box rather than the
sexually empowered. Like I wasn't sexually empowered or sexually liberated
when I was younger. I was just being driven to promiscuity.
I'm not even sure if that's a word by so
so many parts of me that were looking for love
(17:39):
and looking for validation and looking for attention, and that's
that's not that's for me. That wasn't empowering, and it
really really hurt me. But I think when you do
the work and you start to do this work and
the healing, you realize like, oh yeah, I can, I
can do this in a more empowered way, because empowered
to me means X y Z and it's different for everyone.
(18:00):
Oh that's such a beautiful way of putting it. I
feel like you're like a mentor to me. You're like,
I'm like your younger self. But I feel like I'm
coming out of it, like I actually I know this, Like, um,
I went on this date with someone recently and it
was like super casual. It was without giving details. We
love details. Yeah, maybe later, maybe do an R rated
(18:24):
card of this, but it was it was a hook up, right,
whatever you want to apply to that, and I was like, yeah,
I've done this before, like this is fun. And then
like three days, like for the next three days, I
just was like, actually, just don't feel great about myself.
I actually feel like I really liked this person and
(18:45):
I would have actually really enjoyed to getting to know them.
And I made that clear to them and they were like, oh,
I didn't think that's what we were doing. And I
was like, all right, I think that I've Yeah. I
was like that feels yeah. Yeah. Literally, I was like
I was like, I just feels so awful. But I
also was like, okay, like I think I'm done here,
(19:06):
Like this, this actually isn't perhaps what I want. I
think that although I was making those choices and although
it like fit with the lifestyle I have right now,
and I'm quite young and I want to explore and
you know, there's still a lot of stuff that I'm
trying to deal with from previous relationships that I think
wouldn't be helpful to bring into any relationship to until
(19:27):
that's resolved. It's important to kind of maybe know my
boundaries around commitment. I still think it's one of those
things where I was like, I in some way have
come to think that having sex with someone casually is
going or doing something with someone casually is going to
make me feel better, because in the past it's made
me feel better and it no longer is doing that.
(19:49):
And like, the more research I did into it, and
also just anecdotal experience, the more I was like, okay,
Like the part of my brain that enjoys this now
is growing up, it's maturing. I actually want to talk
about this study because I think it's really interesting. Here,
which was a study done in the US, and it
interviewed both men and women the morning after hookup. Super fascinating.
(20:15):
Eighty two percent of men were like, yeah, pretty happy
that I did that, glad that they'd done it. Only
fifty seven percent of women, So, like, I do also
think it's a gendered thing in some ways as well,
like feelings like regret are more likely to impact women.
Emotional difficulties, a sense of a loss of respect, even
(20:37):
like difficulties with a steady partner in the future, embarrassment Like,
none of that to scare anyone, but I think it's
something that as you mature, as well, and you realize
that it's not all glamorous and romantic. You start to
be like, oh, there actually our emotional consequences to this,
and it's okay to be someone who says this isn't
for me, Like does that kind of relate to you,
(20:58):
Like did you have some of that experience as well
when you moved out of your promiscuity era? Oh, my goodness, yes.
And I think that it is such a gendered topic.
I'm so glad you brought up that study because it
is such a fascinating study. And I think that is
the research that also said that more women than men
hoped that a relationship would develop following a hookup and
(21:20):
exactly yeah, and that they also identified more emotional involvement
than the men. And I think it's so important that
there's research being put behind these things, because we always say,
you know, we make these sweeping generalizations like oh, men
love casual sex, men find casual sex way easier than women.
It's awesome to actually start to put some statistics behind that.
And this ties me to my point of silence, which
(21:42):
is that what I find in general hookups, casual hook ups,
casual sex, is there's an element of silence, right, Like
you said, you didn't communicate to this guy that you
went on a date with before, maybe because you weren't
aware at that point, or maybe because you don't feel comfortable,
you don't want to come on too strong. You didn't
commune Kate like, Hey, I'm super up for being intimate
(22:03):
with you, but I kind of think that i'd also
like this to maybe become something else. You know, how
how do you feel about that? And it's this element
of silence. And if you have the hook up and
you have silence, then what I find happens is we
add our own meaning, we add our own intention, and
we add our own like story around their intention. And
(22:24):
when I was younger, maybe when I was your age,
they'd give me attention and I'd think it was intention.
I'd be like, oh my gosh, this is going to
be something like oh my goodness, this we might be
boyfriend and girlfriend, like this might be something. And you know,
with attachment wounds and attachment hunger as well, you also
can end up going into that oh my god, this
is it, this is my person, like they're going to
(22:45):
save everything. Yes, yeah, like exactly. Honestly, I'm like I've
been there too, so I'm like, no, no shame, no judgment,
but it's that silence. When you have silence, we add
our own meaning. And I just think it's so great
that we're starting to have some of that research that
you just pulled out there to start to just share
the truth that yes, sometimes women maybe do experience more
(23:08):
emotional like emotional expectations almost yeah, emotional expectations, emotional involvement,
and maybe even emotional damage. That sounds a bit strong,
but I think the research shows that like women get
they regret it more, they maybe feel more upset about
it afterwards, all guilty, and so I think it's important
(23:31):
to talk about that. Yeah, And I think it also
comes to this point of like sexes is, yeah, physical interaction,
it's great, it feels amazing, but it's also very emotionally
nuanced and something I think that's something that we should
be aware of because I will just make it make
a claim for like the positive impacts which the study
(23:52):
also found, which I think are worth noting, boosts in
self esteem, sexual pleasure, relaxation, it's a really great physical outlet.
And one really interesting one was self awareness, which I
thought was really really interesting when I was thinking about
my own history where I was like, from all of
these casual hookups or even casual relationships, I have taken
(24:15):
an important lesson and I think it does teach you
what you want like, and I think that that's where
I'm at this point, at this emotional turning point, where
I'm like, this actually isn't what I want. I feel
like in some ways I have been slightly indoctrinated into
thinking that it is. And for many of my friends
it is what they want. I'm like, power to you.
I cannot wait to live vicariously through all of your stories.
(24:38):
But it's like sexes, I think sometimes can be a
lot of the emotions can be removed when we put
it in a casual context, but that doesn't mean that
the emotions aren't still lingering somewhere right Like it might
not be committed, it might not be based in like
very pure ephemeral love, but with any intimate interaction, and
(25:00):
it's like, it's not like your brain is separate from
your body here, like there will be neurotransmitters that are fired,
there will be interactions that are going on in your
brain that you can't always control. One of those is
that attachment that you talk about and how I think
as a study shows specifically, women have this expectation of like,
(25:22):
where is this going to go? I want more, which
I think is interesting when we talk about like the
brain because we know sex feels great. We've said that
a million times, and casual sex is a great outlet, right,
but sex also comes with a lot of physical and
mental experiences, including like the release of neurochemicals like oxytocin
(25:47):
and dopamine, and those hormones. Those neurochemicals, they are important
for things like bonding, and they're important for things like attachment,
feeling safe, feeling secure. Those hormones do not understand the
difference between casual sex and committed sex, like if the
(26:09):
pleasure is the same, it's going to respond the same,
which is why sometimes we might have that feeling of
hurt or of unrequired longing after we have encountered someone
and done whatever with them. And it's not even necessarily
sex that releases that like things like oxytocin. It can
literally be released from you know, holding hands with someone,
(26:31):
are getting a really nice hug like we talked about before.
But you think it is why people naturally get attached
especially if you haven't, you know, especially if something that
you've done with a partner is like bringing you a
lot of joy, Suddenly you can find that, even against
your will, you you have this like connection with this person.
(26:51):
I don't know if you've had this where you've been like,
I knew this was casual. I knew this was casual,
but still you're like waiting for the text, or still
you're like, what more it's going to come from this?
I am so glad you brought up waiting for the
text because I think it's really important that we talk
about cortisol in this like formula as well, because you're right,
you know, our oxytocin is soaring because our body is
(27:12):
bonding physically and it thinks we're going to bond more,
and there's these expectations of bonding. So that's rising. But
then also what can be rising in the next few
days afterwards is the cortisol, which is the stress hormone. Right,
because if you are stressed and you leave and you're
waiting for them to text you, waiting for them to
call you, maybe you did something that you didn't want
(27:33):
to do. Maybe you took things a little bit faster
and you wish you'd taken things a bit slower. The
stress hormone cortisol is going to be flooding through your
body too. And I think that also if you have
an anxious attachment style. And I'm not sure how much
you talk about attachment styles, but I talk about them
all the time because it's something that you know. Understanding
my attachment style helped me understand myself so much better.
(27:56):
But that can help you understand why the next few
days can be really really us for even if you
enjoyed the hook up in the moment, because I think
what we're saying is we're not saying like, oh, you know,
we hate every second of the hookup, Like, no, we
we enjoy the hook up. Sometimes, you know, the hookup
can be really fun. It can be really exhilarating. It's
sometimes just the space after the hook up, the emptiness,
(28:19):
like you said, but also the slightly tight feeling in
your chest and you're looking at their their phone. You're
over your phone there WhatsApp, you know they're online. They're
not texting me back like oh why did I do that?
Like I shouldn't have done that. And that's when you
can also be flooded with cortisol and it's just not
a nice feeling. So I think you're right just having
(28:40):
compassion and grace for ourselves in understanding that so many
of these feelings are working at a neurotransmitter level, that
we can just understand this is our biology at play here,
and I think it can help us understand these intense
feelings just a little bit more. And I love that
you brought up cortisol because I think that that is
such a valuable part of that kind of equation and
(29:02):
that interaction that's happening in our brain. The other one
is the oxytocin crash. So oxytocin is like it's triggered
often by intimate relations. Like I said, it could be
triggered by like getting a massage from you know, seeing
a really beautiful tree of the ocean. I don't know
(29:23):
anything that brings you joy. But the thing is that
in those instances where it is something like a little
bit less intense, something that might actually be more common
as well, something that doesn't also have some of that
taboo associated with it. And you know, there's a difference
between having casual sex with someone and seeing the ocean.
(29:44):
It brings up different feelings obviously, but those like those
kind of activities, it's not so much of a spike.
It's just this like gradual peak and then plateau and
it feels really really lovely. It's like when you eat
a banana when you're really hungry and you get those
like natural levels of like gluecoast and sugar. But it's
(30:06):
like if you eat like a massive bag of candy
and you haven't eaten like any sugar for like a
couple of weeks, and you're just like stuffing your face
with it and you're like, yes, you're gonna have this sugar.
I right, You're gonna feel amazing. You're gonna be like, yes,
I want to eat candy all the fucking time. Like yeah,
like high on high on light. Yeah, actually like buzzing.
That's literally what oxytocin does. It's like it's the same
(30:28):
kind of NEU transmit a drug receptor that's used in
a lot of illicit substances as well. So it's also
something to note. But we have this crash. So we
have this crash, this come down, especially when the oxytocin
isn't prolonged by things like aftercare or things like and
for those of you who don't know what aftercare, it's
(30:49):
like having a cuddle after you've hooked up with someone,
or doing something that engages in that pleasurable part of
your brain but has more to do with bonding and
comfort and security and safety. So if that's not sustained,
what we're going to say, is that really intense crash.
Do you have something to say about that? I feel
like that's something that you could probably speak to as well. Yeah,
(31:11):
I'm just so happy you said the word after care,
because it's something that's still not spoken about much, but
it is so so important. I think that I think
their study is showing that if there is aftercare involved
in a sexual encounter, it changes the entire way that
you process and experience the encounter. And something as simple
(31:32):
as a cuddle, an intimate encounter, a conversation after that
hookup can change the whole experience and help you, Like
wean off the crash almost, and I think I'm probably
not alone in that moment that you know it's finished.
Maybe they roll over, they pick up their phone, maybe
(31:53):
they just jump and get in the shower on their own,
and you're just like lying there and you're alone, and
for me, like, oh, I can feel the emotion now,
Like I've been in that situation so many times. You're
just like oh, like it's just an oh, like you're
not going to start well, maybe you will start crying there,
and if you do, that's absolutely okay because it's like
a release of emotion. But it's definitely like a oh,
(32:15):
you know, they've got up, they've left, maybe they just
go and take a phone call, head to the kitchen,
whatever it is that they do. I just think that
that aftercare piece is so important, And if you are
engaging in a hookup, I would say, don't be ashamed
to say, like I'm so excited to do this, but
it's really important for me that you know, we can
have a cuddle afterwards, Like it elevates the whole, like
(32:36):
the whole experience for me. And I think it's just
about delivering that, like we said, everything here is sex positive,
just just deliver it in a positive way, Like I
always love saying it would help me elevate the experience
because it's like that's so cool. It's something that they
can do really easy that can help experience, like develop
the experience even more for you. They should want to
do that for you, right if they get if they
(32:57):
get access to you, your time, your energy or emotions,
your body, and you say to them like, hey, I'd
love to have a cuddle if they if they don't
want to do that, if they won't give you that, Yeah,
I think it says. It says everything about the hook
up and that they probably don't deserve to be hooking
up with you. Again. Oh yeah, it makes it seem
so transactional, doesn't it. Where you're like, right, You're like, wow,
I feel like we just you know, exchanged cash or
(33:19):
a supermarket. Like I've had that experience before, and I
remember just being like, wow, I've never felt more empty
in my life. I was like and it was so sad,
and I remember being like to myself, like, I'm never
going to have that experience ever again, that is not
for me. Much more selective now, I would say, but
(33:39):
also just like, I think this kind of leads to
what I really want to talk to you about next,
which is we're obviously most of us in our twenties,
or I would say, yeah, I would say the majority
of us are having sex and probably having some form
of casual sex or casual intimacy, if that's where you're
at in your life right now. And I think something
(34:00):
that's not spoken about much. As you know, we talk
people give a lot of relationship advice, right Like, there's
so much, so many podcasts, so many articles, so many tiktoks,
so much information about there out there around to have
a healthy, long term, stable relationship, but not so many
about how to have a healthy hookup. So what some
(34:21):
of the advice that you would give, what some of
the things that you would Because you obviously have such
a great language and dialogue around this, I feel like
it needs to be to be shared. Oh bless you,
thank you. So yeah. The first one that we've already
spoken about, I would say, is just knowing your truth.
And I think that you need to understand and connect
with yourself before the hookup even starts, because you can't
(34:42):
really decide it in the moment, because, like we've said,
there's so many neurotransmitters flying around that sometimes that will
impair our judgments. So the first one is just understanding
way or out in your life right now what you
want and just agreeing some boundaries around that, you know,
saying to yourself, I'm just going to commit that I'm
going to stick within these boundaries because I know that
this is going to make me feel better in the
(35:03):
long rue. So yeah, the first the first one is
knowing your truth. The second one, like I've said, is communication.
And it feels awkward to have this communication sometimes before
a hook up, particularly if we don't know them very well,
which is often where I find that this hookup this
hookup culture sits. But I think it's just about practicing
really small, like sound bites of communication. You don't need
(35:25):
to sit them down and say this is my backstory,
this is my sex story, this is what I've gone through,
so this is what I want from you. Like it
doesn't need to doesn't need to be like that. I
think it's just about starting to have small dialogues around
saying I'm really excited to hook up with you. You know,
I prefer to take things slower whilst I get to
know you. So maybe the first few times we hang out,
like you know, we could just get to know each other.
(35:47):
If you want to slow things down with them, say that.
If you don't and you want to go right into it,
communicate with that with them. You know, right now, I'm
not looking for a relationship, So for me, this is
just going to be a hook up and I'm I'm
really excited. How do you feel about that? Because you
know we're coming at this from our anglers women, but
actually it might be that they want or don't want
(36:07):
a relationship. So just having that light touch point, I
think it's really important. And I guess, you know, after
the communication also brings us to the point of consent,
which I think consent is the sexiest thing in the world.
And I can't wait. I can't wait until the world
catches up with that belief that it's it should be
the sexiest part of the conversation. You know, I want
(36:29):
to do this with you. How do you feel about that?
It's kind of but like Louise, it kind of is
so hot? Is this nice? And you're like, thank you
so much for asking me that. Like honestly, I when
I was like twenty, I swear this guy asked me
when we were hooking up. He said, does that feel
good for you? Tell me what I can do differently,
(36:52):
or like he said, does this feel good for you?
Tell me what you want me to do so it
can feel even better. And I was just saying this
was the first guy that had ever like communicated to
me in the bedroom because wow, like hook ups a simon, right,
we don't. Yeah, and I fell in love with him literally,
I was like, oh my god, like you are you
are incredible? So I love it as well. I just
(37:14):
think like, don't be ashamed of it. Just be like
you use your voice in the bedroom, like even if
you have to start really small. M oh yeah, absolutely.
And I think also it's such a great kind of
like almost it's such a great vetting system to understand
where you want to go with this person. Something that
(37:35):
we've obviously said throughout this episode is you know, hookups
don't always mean having full blown intercourse and having sex,
Like it doesn't always mean that. So if you're at
like that first stage where you've like you know, made
out with someone at a party, like having that kind
of like conversation to be like, oh where is this going?
(37:57):
Like what does this feel like? Is like so valuable
gets you on the same page and also just like
make sure that you're able to be like, Okay, this
person just come out of a long term relationship. Am
I going to be a rebound? If that's maybe that's
like maybe that's your specialty all power too, Like maybe
(38:20):
you have that healing energy, love it, but maybe you're
like I don't need to deal with that emotional baggage.
Let's move on. And it's also like a really good
way of like determining like if they are respectful of
that conversation, maybe you do want to move forward. If
they're not, that's a really great place to end things
when you're having a discussion around boundaries, barriers, history, if
(38:43):
you are having that or consent, like, it's such a
great place to start, right, you learn so much about someone. Yeah,
And I think also just on that point, like I
love this quote, which is basically something along the lines
of are you using are you using sex as the
honey or the glue? Like are you using it as something? Yeah,
(39:03):
to try and get them to like you, to love you,
to be interested in you. Like when I was younger,
I would lead with the sex and then hope they'd
full for me. Hope they decide they want a relationship.
Hope they decide like, oh, hey, this chick's cool, Like
I'm up for hanging out with her again. But what
I've learned as I've got older, is that it should
actually be the other way around, like you build the
(39:25):
foundations of something and then use the sex as like
the ad on, like Okay, yeah, we're now going to
have this incredible, pleasurable, powerful hookup. And I just think
it's so interesting to ask, like, oh yeah, like am
I leading with this hookup hoping for something more? Or
am I leading with this hook up? Because actually all
I want is a hook up? And again it ties
back to the first point that I said, what's your truth?
(39:47):
Then you can be empowered, then you can communicate it,
and then you can go with it and have an
amazing experience of whatever that looks like, Oh wise words
from a wise woman. One more question, because I just
feel like we have to just quickly talk about this. Yes,
because we've talked about how sometimes you know, there are
these studies that have been done that show kind of
(40:08):
an emotional response that isn't always positive. Sometimes it's regret,
sometimes it's embarrassment. Any advice for what to do then, like,
sometimes you know, you can't take back what's been done.
Sometimes it can leave you in a place where you
just feel really worthless and useless and gross about yourself.
So where do you go from there. What do you
(40:29):
think your perspective on that is, Yes, So what I
love here is understanding the difference in the concepts of
like regret versus shame. And I'm sure you've touched on
this a lot on your podcast, but for me, they're
very different things. The regret is about a specific act
or experience, whereas the shame is about us, so something
(40:52):
like about the core of our being. So the regret
can be something like, oh, I regret having intercourse with them,
I regret hooking up with them, I regret having sets
with them, like I wish I hadn't done it that soon.
But the shame is deeper. It's I shouldn't have done
that because I gave my body away. I'm not worthy,
like I'm dirty, I'm empty, like. They go a lot deeper.
(41:15):
So they're both really difficult emotions to deal with. But
I would definitely just start with understanding that differentiation, and
that can then help you understand what comes next, because
if it's just regret, you can be like, Okay, why
am I regretful? Okay, because I was drunk, because I
was high, because I had you know, I did something
that I didn't want to do that I wouldn't have
(41:36):
done if I was in a state of mind. In
a different state of mind, you can be like, Okay, cool,
next time when I see this person, I'm not going
to drink or I'm going to drink less at the
next party, or I'm not going to smoke or whatever
that is. You can just make some like really rational
decisions to change and reduce the likelihood of the regret.
Now with the shame, it goes a lot deeper. And
(41:57):
I think that's something where therapy can just be so
helpful to work through because sometimes your friends can help
you process the regret, but it's really like a therapist
that can help you process the shame. You know where absolutely, yeah,
where did that develop? So I think my first point
here is like understanding that difference in regret and shame
(42:18):
can really help you navigate what comes next and navigate
those really difficult feelings. And is it a question of
self worth as well? I think that that is a
massive component and a massive emotional component of casual sex.
Is self worth something that we could do probably a
whole new, a whole other deep downe on it, But
(42:39):
it's not something that's going to be I think healed overnight.
I think also we have a habit of sometimes suppressing
unpleasant emotions, which isn't really going to help you on
the long run, because if you have left something casual,
if you've left a hook up feeling really bad about yourself,
doing that again it might be might it might make
(43:02):
the situation worse, or it might put you back into
this place of spiraling, in this place of shame. So
addressing it head on and actually taking time to process
the shame, like you spoke about, the deeper emotional response
and reaction that you're having will definitely benefit you in
the long run, rather than running away from the feeling,
(43:22):
hiding from the feeling, suppressing the feeling. Yeah, I think
it's so important your point around suppressing and then the
ongoing cycles, because if you don't process the uncomfortable emotions,
you just push them down and then what happens. Oh,
it gets to the weekend, you go out again, you
get drunk again, and the same cycles they just repeat.
And that was me, you know, for so many years
(43:44):
of partying in my early twenties, it would almost be
like every weekend or do something, well, not every weekends,
like that's that's like a lot of hookups. It wasn't
like that many hookups, but it would be you know,
cycles of doing things I regret and then and then
having to deal with the repercussions. So you're so right
about just feeling, and I think that not suppressing piece
is like a longer term piece, like learning how to feel,
(44:07):
learning how to process, Like it's a journey. I'm way
older than you. I'm still learning how to process and feel.
Like this morning before we came on here, I like
watched a video of these elephants like stuck in the mud,
and the mum was like covering the baby with her trunk,
and I was like, I want to cry, and I
was like, don't be so stupid. And I was like, no, cry,
(44:29):
like if you're really sad that they thought they were
going to die there together, And the mum was like
had oh. And do you know what I stood in
my bedroom as a thirty something, you're a woman. I
just bulled my eyes out over these elephants and I
was like, this is this is doing the work. These
tiny moments where we want to cry over an elephant
on an Instagram story, it's doing the work. It's the
little things right, and it is something that I think
(44:51):
applies to everything. When you feel negative emotions, when you
feel complicated emotions, nuanced emotions, ambiguous emotions, the worst thing
you can do is actually not sit with them and
really stay in touch with how you feel, how you're
responding to a situation, so that you know, when we
talk about casual sex again, like if it's something that
(45:11):
maybe isn't for you, you don't want to figure that
out like three years down the track and then have
to deal with all of these what ifs and all
of this. I guess in this instance, regret and shame.
It would be so much more beneficial to you if
you really sat with your emotions and we're able to
process them at the moment. Obviously it's something that you
learn over time. We don't have like a checklist for you, unfortunately,
(45:35):
that would be worth a lot of money. But we
should put that together. Yeah, we really should next collab.
Yeah exactly. I think another thing that's really really important
to talk about here is, like we've spoken about the
longer term piece, like the shame, regret, suppression. I think
what's also so important is like understanding what you can
do in the twenty four forty eight seventy two hours
(45:57):
after the hookup, to help that oxytocin crash, to help
that help that coultasul Spike And I think that what
I've found is often after hookups that I regretted, I'd
feel very cold, like emotionally cold is how my therapist
describes it, and fearful and regretful, and I just would
(46:20):
not feel good. I would kind of just want to
isolate myself, or I'd go the other way and just
go out partying again. So I think it's about really acknowledging, like, Okay,
I don't feel good. What can I do in the
next twenty four or forty eight seventy two hours to
help balance those neurotransmitters. So for me, it's you know,
they say that or you shouldn't. You shouldn't numb on
(46:41):
the sofa with a Netflix and a pizza. But for me,
that is the best thing that I can do that
next day is to be like in the evening, to
be warm, to have a bath, to put on some
really comfy pajamas, to watch a really easy movie that's happy,
to have a pizza, like have something that's like warm
(47:02):
and feels a bit naughty and then to have an
early night. Like I always say, everything is more manageable
the next day, like after a good night's sleep. So
if you are feeling horrible emotions that day and if
you want to text them, okay, write it in your
notes right down, yes, yeah, what you want to say,
(47:22):
And I say this isn't suppression. I just say leave
it twenty four hours, and I guarantee you that when
you come back to that note the next day, after
a good night's sleep, after the alcohol or the drugs
or whatever it is that you know has been involved
in this encounter has won off. After the crash is
starting to come down, you'll look at that message and maybe, like,
(47:43):
if you're like me, you'll be like, thank goodness, I
didn't send that message, like, oh my goodness. And then
you can navigate it. In the forty eight to seventy
two hour mark, when you're feeling a little bit more balanced,
a little bit more calm, a bit more cared for,
you can text them and you can say appreciate your time.
The other night, it brought up some uncomfortable emotions for me.
(48:05):
So I don't think this is a situation that I
want to do with you again. But I do think
you're You're great, You're super handsome, Like I had so
much fun. You know, maybe that's it. You end it
there or whatever your truth, whatever your truth is, I
think you can just send a gentle message so you're
not silenced, so you're not suppressed. And I think that
that kind of seventy two hour window after a hookup,
(48:27):
you can be like, Okay, what can I do in
here that can make me feel better in the time
that if you take her cups badly is going to
make you feel the worst. And I'm going to say
I do this tip. I do this trick where when
I'm feeling super emotional about something in my first instinct
is to like say something immediately in the moment, to
(48:50):
have my fury moment, to have my emotional outlet. I
write it down or I write it in my notes
up and I just leave it. I wait till I
had a clear head. And that's if you're someone who
really does struggle with kind of the emotional complications and
nuances of casual sex, of hook up culture, it might
be really really important. And you know, shout out to
(49:11):
the people who are still listening to this who were like,
I love casual sex. I hook up all the time.
I'm so proud of you, Like, girl, yes, go for it,
go for it. You're You're very lucky that you. Like
I kind of wish I could be that person. I
think I was trying to make myself that person for
a long time, but I'm just not so live your truth,
(49:32):
whatever that may be. Like you said, Louise, oh, I
love that, and I feel the same, you know, if
that's you, I'm so envious, Like I wish like I
could have had more just like fun sexual encounters because
by the age of like twenty five, I was like,
I can't do this anymore. Like I really from the
age of twenty five onwards, I really slept with like
(49:53):
four people because it was like I only slept with
boyfriends thereafter. And sometimes I was like, oh, I there
were five years in my twenties where like I could
have had way more promiscuous fun. So if that's if
that's you, enjoy it for me and Jemma, because we're
not doing it as much as you and I love it.
We do need more empowerment in the world. And if
(50:15):
you're in that empowered category where it feels great for you.
You love it, then kudos to you. And I love
that for you. Yeah, I honestly do. And it's like
that saying, right, like what is empowerment might not always
fear and feel empowering, but if it is empowering to you, like, yeah, kudos, kudos, Yeah, kudos.
I've literally never said the word kudos before, but kudos.
(50:36):
I know it's a beautiful word, isn't it. Well, yeah, kudos. Well,
I want to say kudos to Louise for coming on.
Look at that. What a smooth transition that was. I
really hope that if you're still listening, you have very
mentally enjoyed this episode. Louise, thank you so much for
your wisdom and your kind words. Oh my pleasure, and
(50:59):
I'm just grateful that you've allowed me to bring a
bit of my real life into your incredible science backed episodes.
I think you give everyone exactly what they need to learn,
and I just love this little bit of human human
touch and lived experience. So I have really loved doing
this with you. Thank you so much. Yeah, it was
honestly amazing and probably one of my favorite episodes. I
(51:19):
will also just give you a plug if you you're
not listening to Louise's podcast, the Open House Podcast. It
is incredible, It is amazing. There are so many discussions
much like this one that are available there and that
you should absolutely go and listen to if you want
to expand your mind, you want to hear more information.
(51:41):
I felt this was just the collab that needed to happen.
It was the episode that needed to happen. So thank
you so much once again, and if you did enjoy
this episode, please feel free to leave a five star
review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now.
It really does help the show to grow and reach
(52:01):
new people. Feel free to share this episode with a
friend who might need to hear it. You never know,
and if you want to be more involved with the community,
you want to know what's coming up, what guests we
have on the show, merch things like that. Please follow
us at that Psychology Podcast and have a lovely, lovely week.
We will be back soon with another episode.
Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
the podcast where we talk through some of the big
life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
mean for our psychology. Before we jump in, I just
want to note this episode involves discussions around sex, so
(00:29):
listener discretion is advised. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.
Welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. It
is so amazing to have you here. Back for another episode,
one that I am very very excited about. We have
a very special guest coming on board who I will
(00:50):
introduce too soon. But today we're going to talk about
hookup culture in out twenties. It is so relevant our
twenties or a time for sexual exploration, casual dating, casual hookups.
I think for most of us, I would say we
have had some experience in this area, be that just
(01:10):
making out with someone at a party or something more intimate.
It is, I would say, a fairly normal part of
growing up, of our learning experience, discovering what we like,
what our limits are, what we're into, what kind of
dating we enjoy, what kind of relationships we enjoy. But maybe,
like me, you come out of it feeling kind of worthless,
(01:33):
maybe wanting more. It's definitely not for everyone, and I
really want to talk about how hookup culture doesn't always
line up to that empowered ideology we've been told. It's
obviously an entirely personal preference. So no need to be
ashamed of if you are a fan of hook up culture,
if you're not. It is for everyone to make their
(01:55):
own opinion. And as Louise, our guest always says, everything
today is delivered in a sex positive way. Do what
you want. We're not here to shame anyone more so,
just kind of explore this kind of dynamic and the
cultural sexual phenomena of hookup culture and kind of deep
dive into the psychology. So we're going to talk about
(02:18):
the origins of hook up culture, howard has emerged from
many social and cultural transitions, why some people are more
into hookups and casual sex than others, how it makes
us feel our brains on casual sex, and how you
can go about navigating this sometimes complicated terrain of hookup culture.
(02:42):
But without further ado, I would love to introduce oored
special guest Louise, would you like to say Hi, Hi everyone,
Thank you so much, for having me on your podcast.
I am so so enamored and obsessed by all of
the work you do, and just to everyone listening, I
think it's so cool that you're listening. I think there
(03:03):
is nothing sexier, cooler, more amazing than like doing the
self work and looking inwards. So I'm so excited to
go on this journey with you today. I have so
much to share. It's going to be it's going to
be a fun one. And I love how you bring
the science and the psychology and all of the sources.
You know, very trustworthy, reliable. So can't wait and thank you. Yeah,
(03:24):
I am so excited. I feel like we're going to
have a bit of an overshare today. For those of
you who don't know, Louise is the host of an
incredible podcast called open House or the open House Podcast.
You talk a lot about, you know, the intersections between relationships,
and you talk about therapy, you talk about sex, you
talk about pop culture, so many amazing things. So I
(03:45):
think you are the perfect guest for this episode. Thank you. Yeah,
I've definitely got a lot of stories in the dating world,
the sex world, the good, the bad, the sad. You know,
I've cried so many times after sex, Like we're going
to just get into the realities today but also also
the beautiful. I think we're going to cover everything, and
I'm really excited to see where this goes with you today. Yeah, well,
(04:08):
I think that's one of those things right where we
all know that hookup culture is part of our even
our teenagers, but definitely our twenties for those of us
who choose to partake as I know that both of
you and I have at various points in our life,
but there is still, I think some stigma but also
not always a clear or a bit of an ambiguous
(04:30):
understanding around what it does to our brains, why we
leave certain casual sexual dating interactions feeling really worthless about ourselves.
But I think it's also important to acknowledge that we
have experienced these massive cultural and societal shifts recently. You know,
(04:51):
it previously used to be that casual sex was not
permissible you got married, you had children, if you're a
hetero person, and you had sex within the confines of
a married relationship, And there has been that massive shift recently. Like,
I'm sure that's something you can speak to as well, Like,
(05:11):
what do you think some of those major reasons are
behind why this process has kind of taken place. Definitely.
I mean, you're right with the massive social and cultural shifts,
and I think that so much of that has been
driven by not only like the sexual liberation move in
the sixties, where people started to really you know, let
go of those constraints that people had lived with for
(05:33):
so long and move more into this space of freedom
and love and also like acceptance of their bodies and
really like leaning into that, which I think is really beautiful.
I think that set the foundations for this, But there's
still stigma around that. Right if you look back at
the nineteen sixties, you know, it's like, oh, flower power,
like everyone was like having sex with everyone. Like the
(05:54):
way that we talk about it is still with an
angle or like a lens of shame, which I think
is so interesting. But what I also think is so
interesting is that I think that culture today has romanticized
and fantasized all of this. Like if you watch a movie,
they fall in love, they kiss, they have sex. You
(06:15):
never hear them talking about like do you want to
do this? Like have you got protection? Like what are
we going to be after this? You never see any
of these discussions. It's just this romance whirlwind, and you know,
we just have picked that up from as young as
you can remember, with every movie, every relationship, celebrity relationship
(06:36):
that we've ever looked at. I just feel like the
media around us has sort of romanticized this whole hook
up culture, and sometimes the truth is that it isn't
It isn't quite as romantic as we want it to be. Oh,
I totally agree, and like the point you make about
how the meat if we get a lot of our
sexual education from the media. But I think you have
an amazing point. Right, we had that sexual revolution, birth
(07:00):
control became more accessible so you didn't have to worry
about unwanted pregnancies out of wedlock. But I feel like
we still have those very traditional concepts about what a
relationship should look like. We're still very much a monogamous society,
with the majority of us would say that we want
a monogamous relationship. We think about marriage, we want to
(07:22):
have children in a stable relationship. That's still something that's
very much ingrained with us within us. But our kind
of values and our attitudes towards sex haven't have kind
of sped up a little bit further in that process,
and we haven't really been able to catch up in
that sense. And it's all been, like you said, actually
romanticized by these movies, which show like someone falling onto
(07:47):
the bed with their like really hot movie star partner
that they just met in the bar, and like they
just like have this crazy sex and it's always really
really good and really fulfilling. I don't think I've ever
seen a scene in a TV show, in a movie
where there has been the like what are we conversation
(08:07):
never or like someone's been like talking to their friends
around like oh, like I hooked up with this guy
once and now I like have lots of regrets and
or I feel really bad, and you know, most of
the time their friends are like, oh yeah, like single
girl sleigh like oh like like go for it, like
you've left your husband whatever. There's all these tropes around it,
and we haven't really caught up to that. And like
(08:28):
I know that you've you've spoke about this before and
when we've spoken about this before, but casual sex or
casual even just like cook ups, like making out with someone,
like cuddling someone, doing anything else can leave us feeling
kind of empty in a way that isn't always seen
in kind of the glamorized movies that we've watched them
Two Children. Yeah, and just to build on that, because
(08:50):
you've mentioned cuddling, and I think this is one of
the things that I've done a lot in my own therapy,
but also spoken about on my podcast, is that often
I find, I don't know if you've experienced this, that sometimes, honestly,
looking back at a hookup, all I actually wanted was
a cuddle. Like sometimes all I wanted was like some intimacy,
to maybe just be making out with them. You know,
(09:12):
it's so fun to be like hooking up with someone
in a bar or on a night out or on
a day or whatever that is. And then sometimes everything
sort of just runs away with you and everything picks
up speed and you don't really know this person, and
then it's kind of hard to have that conversation before
it happens, much like you said, And then it happens
whatever it is, whatever part of the encounter that is,
(09:35):
and then the next day, all of a sudden, you
wake up to the stark reality of, oh my goodness,
you know that actually all I wanted was a cuddle
and some attention and actually then the next day you
feel like really empty. And I think at some point
maybe we can go into what that empty feeling is
because everyone says, oh I feel empty or I felt used.
(09:55):
The truth is there's so much behind that, and it's
a really really important for us to just all unpack.
And sometimes you're right, you just want to cuddle. And
I think there is this expectation, right because we've become
more sexually liberated, which is an amazing, amazing thing, but
there is always this expectation of like, okay, intimacy equal sex.
(10:16):
Now intimacy equals some form of like yeah, sexual encounter,
which sometimes it's like we actually don't want that from someone.
We actually want platonic intimacy, or we want some other
form of intimacy. And I think it's also worth acknowledging
if you're listening to this being like, no part of
(10:36):
casual sex sounds good to me, or maybe you're someone
who's like, oh I love casual sex. This is super fulfilling.
That's also totally normal because I think people are really
different in kind of what we desire from our sex lives,
what we desire from our romantic kind of pursuits. I
was telling The Ways earlier about this personality measure out
(10:58):
called socio actuality, and it kind of measures whether someone
is going to be more inclined to engage in casual sex.
And it's a personality feature that each of us have
that we sit on a spectrum. So I have friends,
I'm sure you have friends the Ways, or maybe I've
even been this person at a point in my life
(11:19):
where like casual sex, short term relationships, no commitment, that
was something that was super interesting to me and something
that I was like, yeah, I'm a big fan of this.
But then there are other people who are like, oh,
this actually isn't where I stand. This is not what
I'm looking for when I go into these interactions, which
(11:40):
is like kind of shit when you're like, oh, maybe
I actually didn't want to do this, but the other person,
you know, there was this like expectation or like kind
of like this societal pressure. Like I think we've almost
turned away from slut shaming, of course it still exists
into this like very like sex is empowering, so you
should be having heaps of sex, and if you're not
(12:00):
having heaps of sex, like there's something about you that's undesirable,
like if you found that as well, like within your
friendship group or within your own life. Yeah, I think
it's so important to touch on this point of sexual liberation.
And you know, with the rise of feminism, like you said,
with the rise of birth control, there is this space
where we are stepping into a more empowered space where
(12:20):
it's like, oh, why should men be able to sleep
with ten people and no one bat an eyelid? One
hundred people and no one beat an eyelid, you know,
more well, whatever that number is, there's very little judging
around the man, and they might just be like, oh,
they're a fuck boy. Sorry, I don't know. If you
swear on your podcast, go for it, okay, faffort, you know,
oh they're a fuck boy. But then there's also this
(12:41):
kind of mentality that if they're the fuck boy, they're
kind of attractive and everyone's into them and everyone wants them,
whereas like that does not happen for us. And I
think that it's just really interesting that, you know, if
you look back to like Bridget and say, if you've
watched that TV program, the whole thing in that is
that you're waiting to be chosen by the man, you know,
(13:02):
the room full of women you're waiting to be chosen.
We're moving away from that today, where you're right, empowerment,
female empowerment. We can do whatever we want, and so
we should be able to. But the truth, the truth
is is that underneath that empowerment, I still don't think
we're having the truthful discussions around what do I actually
(13:23):
want here? And like you said, that point, that point
around intimacy is you might just want to cuddle, or
you might want to hook up but not have penetrative sex,
or because you know, for me, I'm I'm well, I'm
in a relationship now, but before I would have been
way more happy having a hook up that didn't involve
penetrative sex, because for me, I have more trauma around
(13:43):
that and I want to know someone and feel safe
with them, but I'd happily do other stuff. And then
I have friends who would sleep with a different guy
every weekend and it would it wouldn't FaZe them at all,
there would be no negative emotions coming up. So you're right,
We're also different and so unique, and I think it's
just about being really compassionate with our own story because
(14:05):
often we do have our own sex story, and often
it does come from a real like a place of
pain and you know, um, not being respected or doing
things we didn't want to do or regret or shame
or guilt. And when we are just a little bit
clearer and more compassionate with our own truth, I think
I think we can then say it's actually, like you said,
(14:27):
what do I want from this? You know, do I
actually just want a cuddle or a date and some flirting.
And I think it can help help us just manage
those boundaries a little bit better. And it's I'm reminded
of this quote I heard of the other day, was like,
just because it's empowering doesn't mean it leaves you feeling
empowered love that, which I just think, Yeah, it's so
(14:47):
it's so pertinent to this conversation, right, It's like, just
because society has told you that, you know, I think
we're specifically talking to women here or people who identify
as women. Um, just because society has told you that
to be empowered, you should be having casual sex. You
should be reclaiming the sexual narrative that has very much
(15:08):
and historically very much been in the favor of men.
Doesn't mean that you personally have to be on board
with that, like there are other ways that you can
feel liberated. And I feel like sometimes sexual freedom gets
confused with like sexual promiscuity, which is like super fair.
Like I would say that I'm a fairly promiscuous person
(15:30):
at this point in my life because that's my preference.
I think Louis has given me a clap. I'm capping
just like mainly for your honesty, because I felt like
in my twenties, like i'm older than you, I would
never be able to sit on a podcast and say, oh, yeah,
I'm in my promiscuous phase because I held so much
shame around being promiscuous because I did so many things
(15:51):
and I felt so regretful. But now like i'm older,
I'm exactly the same. Like that's why we're here talking
about this. But just to hear you, hear you say that,
I'm like, oh my goodness, this is this is a
healthy queen. Like I love to hear it. I love
to hear it you made. But I think that it's
it comes from like a point of like, Okay, I'm
in like whatever, my promiscuous error, but the thing is
(16:13):
that I'm not and even then I would say that
hook up culture still doesn't always benefit me because you
both have to be in the same mindset, if you
if this is a casual interaction for it to work.
Like I've had so many interactions in which I know
in my deepest of hearts that I am, I'm a
relationship girlie like I in my long in the long run,
(16:36):
would love commitment, would love a partner, would love someone
who I can trust and talk to um. But at
this point in my life, that's not something that's like,
is going to fit in with how busy I am
with my schedule, with my life priorities. But you know,
girls gotta eat. Girl's gotta eat, and we do have
biological needs, you know. And it's it's really like how
(16:56):
I think, I think just to your point, it's like,
what does empowerment mean to you? What does empower I
mean to you? Like for me, I've realized that empowerment
means protecting my energy, protecting my body until I feel
safe enough with someone and understand the truth of their
intentions that I can then share my body with them,
share my pleasure with them, share the experience with them,
(17:18):
And that for me is empowering. Whereas before, when I
was younger, I didn't have any of those things, so
I always went into the promiscuous box rather than the
sexually empowered. Like I wasn't sexually empowered or sexually liberated
when I was younger. I was just being driven to promiscuity.
I'm not even sure if that's a word by so
so many parts of me that were looking for love
(17:39):
and looking for validation and looking for attention, and that's
that's not that's for me. That wasn't empowering, and it
really really hurt me. But I think when you do
the work and you start to do this work and
the healing, you realize like, oh yeah, I can, I
can do this in a more empowered way, because empowered
to me means X y Z and it's different for everyone.
(18:00):
Oh that's such a beautiful way of putting it. I
feel like you're like a mentor to me. You're like,
I'm like your younger self. But I feel like I'm
coming out of it, like I actually I know this, Like, um,
I went on this date with someone recently and it
was like super casual. It was without giving details. We
love details. Yeah, maybe later, maybe do an R rated
(18:24):
card of this, but it was it was a hook up, right,
whatever you want to apply to that, and I was like, yeah,
I've done this before, like this is fun. And then
like three days, like for the next three days, I
just was like, actually, just don't feel great about myself.
I actually feel like I really liked this person and
(18:45):
I would have actually really enjoyed to getting to know them.
And I made that clear to them and they were like, oh,
I didn't think that's what we were doing. And I
was like, all right, I think that I've Yeah. I
was like that feels yeah. Yeah. Literally, I was like
I was like, I just feels so awful. But I
also was like, okay, like I think I'm done here,
(19:06):
Like this, this actually isn't perhaps what I want. I
think that although I was making those choices and although
it like fit with the lifestyle I have right now,
and I'm quite young and I want to explore and
you know, there's still a lot of stuff that I'm
trying to deal with from previous relationships that I think
wouldn't be helpful to bring into any relationship to until
(19:27):
that's resolved. It's important to kind of maybe know my
boundaries around commitment. I still think it's one of those
things where I was like, I in some way have
come to think that having sex with someone casually is
going or doing something with someone casually is going to
make me feel better, because in the past it's made
me feel better and it no longer is doing that.
(19:49):
And like, the more research I did into it, and
also just anecdotal experience, the more I was like, okay,
Like the part of my brain that enjoys this now
is growing up, it's maturing. I actually want to talk
about this study because I think it's really interesting. Here,
which was a study done in the US, and it
interviewed both men and women the morning after hookup. Super fascinating.
(20:15):
Eighty two percent of men were like, yeah, pretty happy
that I did that, glad that they'd done it. Only
fifty seven percent of women, So, like, I do also
think it's a gendered thing in some ways as well,
like feelings like regret are more likely to impact women.
Emotional difficulties, a sense of a loss of respect, even
(20:37):
like difficulties with a steady partner in the future, embarrassment Like,
none of that to scare anyone, but I think it's
something that as you mature, as well, and you realize
that it's not all glamorous and romantic. You start to
be like, oh, there actually our emotional consequences to this,
and it's okay to be someone who says this isn't
for me, Like does that kind of relate to you,
(20:58):
Like did you have some of that experience as well
when you moved out of your promiscuity era? Oh, my goodness, yes.
And I think that it is such a gendered topic.
I'm so glad you brought up that study because it
is such a fascinating study. And I think that is
the research that also said that more women than men
hoped that a relationship would develop following a hookup and
(21:20):
exactly yeah, and that they also identified more emotional involvement
than the men. And I think it's so important that
there's research being put behind these things, because we always say,
you know, we make these sweeping generalizations like oh, men
love casual sex, men find casual sex way easier than women.
It's awesome to actually start to put some statistics behind that.
And this ties me to my point of silence, which
(21:42):
is that what I find in general hookups, casual hook ups,
casual sex, is there's an element of silence, right, Like
you said, you didn't communicate to this guy that you
went on a date with before, maybe because you weren't
aware at that point, or maybe because you don't feel comfortable,
you don't want to come on too strong. You didn't
commune Kate like, Hey, I'm super up for being intimate
(22:03):
with you, but I kind of think that i'd also
like this to maybe become something else. You know, how
how do you feel about that? And it's this element
of silence. And if you have the hook up and
you have silence, then what I find happens is we
add our own meaning, we add our own intention, and
we add our own like story around their intention. And
(22:24):
when I was younger, maybe when I was your age,
they'd give me attention and I'd think it was intention.
I'd be like, oh my gosh, this is going to
be something like oh my goodness, this we might be
boyfriend and girlfriend, like this might be something. And you know,
with attachment wounds and attachment hunger as well, you also
can end up going into that oh my god, this
is it, this is my person, like they're going to
(22:45):
save everything. Yes, yeah, like exactly. Honestly, I'm like I've
been there too, so I'm like, no, no shame, no judgment,
but it's that silence. When you have silence, we add
our own meaning. And I just think it's so great
that we're starting to have some of that research that
you just pulled out there to start to just share
the truth that yes, sometimes women maybe do experience more
(23:08):
emotional like emotional expectations almost yeah, emotional expectations, emotional involvement,
and maybe even emotional damage. That sounds a bit strong,
but I think the research shows that like women get
they regret it more, they maybe feel more upset about
it afterwards, all guilty, and so I think it's important
(23:31):
to talk about that. Yeah, And I think it also
comes to this point of like sexes is, yeah, physical interaction,
it's great, it feels amazing, but it's also very emotionally
nuanced and something I think that's something that we should
be aware of because I will just make it make
a claim for like the positive impacts which the study
(23:52):
also found, which I think are worth noting, boosts in
self esteem, sexual pleasure, relaxation, it's a really great physical outlet.
And one really interesting one was self awareness, which I
thought was really really interesting when I was thinking about
my own history where I was like, from all of
these casual hookups or even casual relationships, I have taken
(24:15):
an important lesson and I think it does teach you
what you want like, and I think that that's where
I'm at this point, at this emotional turning point, where
I'm like, this actually isn't what I want. I feel
like in some ways I have been slightly indoctrinated into
thinking that it is. And for many of my friends
it is what they want. I'm like, power to you.
I cannot wait to live vicariously through all of your stories.
(24:38):
But it's like sexes, I think sometimes can be a
lot of the emotions can be removed when we put
it in a casual context, but that doesn't mean that
the emotions aren't still lingering somewhere right Like it might
not be committed, it might not be based in like
very pure ephemeral love, but with any intimate interaction, and
(25:00):
it's like, it's not like your brain is separate from
your body here, like there will be neurotransmitters that are fired,
there will be interactions that are going on in your
brain that you can't always control. One of those is
that attachment that you talk about and how I think
as a study shows specifically, women have this expectation of like,
(25:22):
where is this going to go? I want more, which
I think is interesting when we talk about like the
brain because we know sex feels great. We've said that
a million times, and casual sex is a great outlet, right,
but sex also comes with a lot of physical and
mental experiences, including like the release of neurochemicals like oxytocin
(25:47):
and dopamine, and those hormones. Those neurochemicals, they are important
for things like bonding, and they're important for things like attachment,
feeling safe, feeling secure. Those hormones do not understand the
difference between casual sex and committed sex, like if the
(26:09):
pleasure is the same, it's going to respond the same,
which is why sometimes we might have that feeling of
hurt or of unrequired longing after we have encountered someone
and done whatever with them. And it's not even necessarily
sex that releases that like things like oxytocin. It can
literally be released from you know, holding hands with someone,
(26:31):
are getting a really nice hug like we talked about before.
But you think it is why people naturally get attached
especially if you haven't, you know, especially if something that
you've done with a partner is like bringing you a
lot of joy, Suddenly you can find that, even against
your will, you you have this like connection with this person.
(26:51):
I don't know if you've had this where you've been like,
I knew this was casual. I knew this was casual,
but still you're like waiting for the text, or still
you're like, what more it's going to come from this?
I am so glad you brought up waiting for the
text because I think it's really important that we talk
about cortisol in this like formula as well, because you're right,
you know, our oxytocin is soaring because our body is
(27:12):
bonding physically and it thinks we're going to bond more,
and there's these expectations of bonding. So that's rising. But
then also what can be rising in the next few
days afterwards is the cortisol, which is the stress hormone. Right,
because if you are stressed and you leave and you're
waiting for them to text you, waiting for them to
call you, maybe you did something that you didn't want
(27:33):
to do. Maybe you took things a little bit faster
and you wish you'd taken things a bit slower. The
stress hormone cortisol is going to be flooding through your
body too. And I think that also if you have
an anxious attachment style. And I'm not sure how much
you talk about attachment styles, but I talk about them
all the time because it's something that you know. Understanding
my attachment style helped me understand myself so much better.
(27:56):
But that can help you understand why the next few
days can be really really us for even if you
enjoyed the hook up in the moment, because I think
what we're saying is we're not saying like, oh, you know,
we hate every second of the hookup, Like, no, we
we enjoy the hook up. Sometimes, you know, the hookup
can be really fun. It can be really exhilarating. It's
sometimes just the space after the hook up, the emptiness,
(28:19):
like you said, but also the slightly tight feeling in
your chest and you're looking at their their phone. You're
over your phone there WhatsApp, you know they're online. They're
not texting me back like oh why did I do that?
Like I shouldn't have done that. And that's when you
can also be flooded with cortisol and it's just not
a nice feeling. So I think you're right just having
(28:40):
compassion and grace for ourselves in understanding that so many
of these feelings are working at a neurotransmitter level, that
we can just understand this is our biology at play here,
and I think it can help us understand these intense
feelings just a little bit more. And I love that
you brought up cortisol because I think that that is
such a valuable part of that kind of equation and
(29:02):
that interaction that's happening in our brain. The other one
is the oxytocin crash. So oxytocin is like it's triggered
often by intimate relations. Like I said, it could be
triggered by like getting a massage from you know, seeing
a really beautiful tree of the ocean. I don't know
(29:23):
anything that brings you joy. But the thing is that
in those instances where it is something like a little
bit less intense, something that might actually be more common
as well, something that doesn't also have some of that
taboo associated with it. And you know, there's a difference
between having casual sex with someone and seeing the ocean.
(29:44):
It brings up different feelings obviously, but those like those
kind of activities, it's not so much of a spike.
It's just this like gradual peak and then plateau and
it feels really really lovely. It's like when you eat
a banana when you're really hungry and you get those
like natural levels of like gluecoast and sugar. But it's
(30:06):
like if you eat like a massive bag of candy
and you haven't eaten like any sugar for like a
couple of weeks, and you're just like stuffing your face
with it and you're like, yes, you're gonna have this sugar.
I right, You're gonna feel amazing. You're gonna be like, yes,
I want to eat candy all the fucking time. Like yeah,
like high on high on light. Yeah, actually like buzzing.
That's literally what oxytocin does. It's like it's the same
(30:28):
kind of NEU transmit a drug receptor that's used in
a lot of illicit substances as well. So it's also
something to note. But we have this crash. So we
have this crash, this come down, especially when the oxytocin
isn't prolonged by things like aftercare or things like and
for those of you who don't know what aftercare, it's
(30:49):
like having a cuddle after you've hooked up with someone,
or doing something that engages in that pleasurable part of
your brain but has more to do with bonding and
comfort and security and safety. So if that's not sustained,
what we're going to say, is that really intense crash.
Do you have something to say about that? I feel
like that's something that you could probably speak to as well. Yeah,
(31:11):
I'm just so happy you said the word after care,
because it's something that's still not spoken about much, but
it is so so important. I think that I think
their study is showing that if there is aftercare involved
in a sexual encounter, it changes the entire way that
you process and experience the encounter. And something as simple
(31:32):
as a cuddle, an intimate encounter, a conversation after that
hookup can change the whole experience and help you, Like
wean off the crash almost, and I think I'm probably
not alone in that moment that you know it's finished.
Maybe they roll over, they pick up their phone, maybe
(31:53):
they just jump and get in the shower on their own,
and you're just like lying there and you're alone, and
for me, like, oh, I can feel the emotion now,
Like I've been in that situation so many times. You're
just like oh, like it's just an oh, like you're
not going to start well, maybe you will start crying there,
and if you do, that's absolutely okay because it's like
a release of emotion. But it's definitely like a oh,
(32:15):
you know, they've got up, they've left, maybe they just
go and take a phone call, head to the kitchen,
whatever it is that they do. I just think that
that aftercare piece is so important, And if you are
engaging in a hookup, I would say, don't be ashamed
to say, like I'm so excited to do this, but
it's really important for me that you know, we can
have a cuddle afterwards, Like it elevates the whole, like
(32:36):
the whole experience for me. And I think it's just
about delivering that, like we said, everything here is sex positive,
just just deliver it in a positive way, Like I
always love saying it would help me elevate the experience
because it's like that's so cool. It's something that they
can do really easy that can help experience, like develop
the experience even more for you. They should want to
do that for you, right if they get if they
(32:57):
get access to you, your time, your energy or emotions,
your body, and you say to them like, hey, I'd
love to have a cuddle if they if they don't
want to do that, if they won't give you that, Yeah,
I think it says. It says everything about the hook
up and that they probably don't deserve to be hooking
up with you. Again. Oh yeah, it makes it seem
so transactional, doesn't it. Where you're like, right, You're like, wow,
I feel like we just you know, exchanged cash or
(33:19):
a supermarket. Like I've had that experience before, and I
remember just being like, wow, I've never felt more empty
in my life. I was like and it was so sad,
and I remember being like to myself, like, I'm never
going to have that experience ever again, that is not
for me. Much more selective now, I would say, but
(33:39):
also just like, I think this kind of leads to
what I really want to talk to you about next,
which is we're obviously most of us in our twenties,
or I would say, yeah, I would say the majority
of us are having sex and probably having some form
of casual sex or casual intimacy, if that's where you're
at in your life right now. And I think something
(34:00):
that's not spoken about much. As you know, we talk
people give a lot of relationship advice, right Like, there's
so much, so many podcasts, so many articles, so many tiktoks,
so much information about there out there around to have
a healthy, long term, stable relationship, but not so many
about how to have a healthy hookup. So what some
(34:21):
of the advice that you would give, what some of
the things that you would Because you obviously have such
a great language and dialogue around this, I feel like
it needs to be to be shared. Oh bless you,
thank you. So yeah. The first one that we've already
spoken about, I would say, is just knowing your truth.
And I think that you need to understand and connect
with yourself before the hookup even starts, because you can't
(34:42):
really decide it in the moment, because, like we've said,
there's so many neurotransmitters flying around that sometimes that will
impair our judgments. So the first one is just understanding
way or out in your life right now what you
want and just agreeing some boundaries around that, you know,
saying to yourself, I'm just going to commit that I'm
going to stick within these boundaries because I know that
this is going to make me feel better in the
(35:03):
long rue. So yeah, the first the first one is
knowing your truth. The second one, like I've said, is communication.
And it feels awkward to have this communication sometimes before
a hook up, particularly if we don't know them very well,
which is often where I find that this hookup this
hookup culture sits. But I think it's just about practicing
really small, like sound bites of communication. You don't need
(35:25):
to sit them down and say this is my backstory,
this is my sex story, this is what I've gone through,
so this is what I want from you. Like it
doesn't need to doesn't need to be like that. I
think it's just about starting to have small dialogues around
saying I'm really excited to hook up with you. You know,
I prefer to take things slower whilst I get to
know you. So maybe the first few times we hang out,
like you know, we could just get to know each other.
(35:47):
If you want to slow things down with them, say that.
If you don't and you want to go right into it,
communicate with that with them. You know, right now, I'm
not looking for a relationship, So for me, this is
just going to be a hook up and I'm I'm
really excited. How do you feel about that? Because you
know we're coming at this from our anglers women, but
actually it might be that they want or don't want
(36:07):
a relationship. So just having that light touch point, I
think it's really important. And I guess, you know, after
the communication also brings us to the point of consent,
which I think consent is the sexiest thing in the world.
And I can't wait. I can't wait until the world
catches up with that belief that it's it should be
the sexiest part of the conversation. You know, I want
(36:29):
to do this with you. How do you feel about that?
It's kind of but like Louise, it kind of is
so hot? Is this nice? And you're like, thank you
so much for asking me that. Like honestly, I when
I was like twenty, I swear this guy asked me
when we were hooking up. He said, does that feel
good for you? Tell me what I can do differently,
(36:52):
or like he said, does this feel good for you?
Tell me what you want me to do so it
can feel even better. And I was just saying this
was the first guy that had ever like communicated to
me in the bedroom because wow, like hook ups a simon, right,
we don't. Yeah, and I fell in love with him literally,
I was like, oh my god, like you are you
are incredible? So I love it as well. I just
(37:14):
think like, don't be ashamed of it. Just be like
you use your voice in the bedroom, like even if
you have to start really small. M oh yeah, absolutely.
And I think also it's such a great kind of
like almost it's such a great vetting system to understand
where you want to go with this person. Something that
(37:35):
we've obviously said throughout this episode is you know, hookups
don't always mean having full blown intercourse and having sex,
Like it doesn't always mean that. So if you're at
like that first stage where you've like you know, made
out with someone at a party, like having that kind
of like conversation to be like, oh where is this going?
(37:57):
Like what does this feel like? Is like so valuable
gets you on the same page and also just like
make sure that you're able to be like, Okay, this
person just come out of a long term relationship. Am
I going to be a rebound? If that's maybe that's
like maybe that's your specialty all power too, Like maybe
(38:20):
you have that healing energy, love it, but maybe you're
like I don't need to deal with that emotional baggage.
Let's move on. And it's also like a really good
way of like determining like if they are respectful of
that conversation, maybe you do want to move forward. If
they're not, that's a really great place to end things
when you're having a discussion around boundaries, barriers, history, if
(38:43):
you are having that or consent, like, it's such a
great place to start, right, you learn so much about someone. Yeah,
And I think also just on that point, like I
love this quote, which is basically something along the lines
of are you using are you using sex as the
honey or the glue? Like are you using it as something? Yeah,
(39:03):
to try and get them to like you, to love you,
to be interested in you. Like when I was younger,
I would lead with the sex and then hope they'd
full for me. Hope they decide they want a relationship.
Hope they decide like, oh, hey, this chick's cool, Like
I'm up for hanging out with her again. But what
I've learned as I've got older, is that it should
actually be the other way around, like you build the
(39:25):
foundations of something and then use the sex as like
the ad on, like Okay, yeah, we're now going to
have this incredible, pleasurable, powerful hookup. And I just think
it's so interesting to ask, like, oh yeah, like am
I leading with this hookup hoping for something more? Or
am I leading with this hook up? Because actually all
I want is a hook up? And again it ties
back to the first point that I said, what's your truth?
(39:47):
Then you can be empowered, then you can communicate it,
and then you can go with it and have an
amazing experience of whatever that looks like, Oh wise words
from a wise woman. One more question, because I just
feel like we have to just quickly talk about this. Yes,
because we've talked about how sometimes you know, there are
these studies that have been done that show kind of
(40:08):
an emotional response that isn't always positive. Sometimes it's regret,
sometimes it's embarrassment. Any advice for what to do then, like,
sometimes you know, you can't take back what's been done.
Sometimes it can leave you in a place where you
just feel really worthless and useless and gross about yourself.
So where do you go from there. What do you
(40:29):
think your perspective on that is, Yes, So what I
love here is understanding the difference in the concepts of
like regret versus shame. And I'm sure you've touched on
this a lot on your podcast, but for me, they're
very different things. The regret is about a specific act
or experience, whereas the shame is about us, so something
(40:52):
like about the core of our being. So the regret
can be something like, oh, I regret having intercourse with them,
I regret hooking up with them, I regret having sets
with them, like I wish I hadn't done it that soon.
But the shame is deeper. It's I shouldn't have done
that because I gave my body away. I'm not worthy,
like I'm dirty, I'm empty, like. They go a lot deeper.
(41:15):
So they're both really difficult emotions to deal with. But
I would definitely just start with understanding that differentiation, and
that can then help you understand what comes next, because
if it's just regret, you can be like, Okay, why
am I regretful? Okay, because I was drunk, because I
was high, because I had you know, I did something
that I didn't want to do that I wouldn't have
(41:36):
done if I was in a state of mind. In
a different state of mind, you can be like, Okay, cool,
next time when I see this person, I'm not going
to drink or I'm going to drink less at the
next party, or I'm not going to smoke or whatever
that is. You can just make some like really rational
decisions to change and reduce the likelihood of the regret.
Now with the shame, it goes a lot deeper. And
(41:57):
I think that's something where therapy can just be so
helpful to work through because sometimes your friends can help
you process the regret, but it's really like a therapist
that can help you process the shame. You know where absolutely, yeah,
where did that develop? So I think my first point
here is like understanding that difference in regret and shame
(42:18):
can really help you navigate what comes next and navigate
those really difficult feelings. And is it a question of
self worth as well? I think that that is a
massive component and a massive emotional component of casual sex.
Is self worth something that we could do probably a
whole new, a whole other deep downe on it, But
(42:39):
it's not something that's going to be I think healed overnight.
I think also we have a habit of sometimes suppressing
unpleasant emotions, which isn't really going to help you on
the long run, because if you have left something casual,
if you've left a hook up feeling really bad about yourself,
doing that again it might be might it might make
(43:02):
the situation worse, or it might put you back into
this place of spiraling, in this place of shame. So
addressing it head on and actually taking time to process
the shame, like you spoke about, the deeper emotional response
and reaction that you're having will definitely benefit you in
the long run, rather than running away from the feeling,
(43:22):
hiding from the feeling, suppressing the feeling. Yeah, I think
it's so important your point around suppressing and then the
ongoing cycles, because if you don't process the uncomfortable emotions,
you just push them down and then what happens. Oh,
it gets to the weekend, you go out again, you
get drunk again, and the same cycles they just repeat.
And that was me, you know, for so many years
(43:44):
of partying in my early twenties, it would almost be
like every weekend or do something, well, not every weekends,
like that's that's like a lot of hookups. It wasn't
like that many hookups, but it would be you know,
cycles of doing things I regret and then and then
having to deal with the repercussions. So you're so right
about just feeling, and I think that not suppressing piece
is like a longer term piece, like learning how to feel,
(44:07):
learning how to process, Like it's a journey. I'm way
older than you. I'm still learning how to process and feel.
Like this morning before we came on here, I like
watched a video of these elephants like stuck in the mud,
and the mum was like covering the baby with her trunk,
and I was like, I want to cry, and I
was like, don't be so stupid. And I was like, no, cry,
(44:29):
like if you're really sad that they thought they were
going to die there together, And the mum was like
had oh. And do you know what I stood in
my bedroom as a thirty something, you're a woman. I
just bulled my eyes out over these elephants and I
was like, this is this is doing the work. These
tiny moments where we want to cry over an elephant
on an Instagram story, it's doing the work. It's the
little things right, and it is something that I think
(44:51):
applies to everything. When you feel negative emotions, when you
feel complicated emotions, nuanced emotions, ambiguous emotions, the worst thing
you can do is actually not sit with them and
really stay in touch with how you feel, how you're
responding to a situation, so that you know, when we
talk about casual sex again, like if it's something that
(45:11):
maybe isn't for you, you don't want to figure that
out like three years down the track and then have
to deal with all of these what ifs and all
of this. I guess in this instance, regret and shame.
It would be so much more beneficial to you if
you really sat with your emotions and we're able to
process them at the moment. Obviously it's something that you
learn over time. We don't have like a checklist for you, unfortunately,
(45:35):
that would be worth a lot of money. But we
should put that together. Yeah, we really should next collab.
Yeah exactly. I think another thing that's really really important
to talk about here is, like we've spoken about the
longer term piece, like the shame, regret, suppression. I think
what's also so important is like understanding what you can
do in the twenty four forty eight seventy two hours
(45:57):
after the hookup, to help that oxytocin crash, to help
that help that coultasul Spike And I think that what
I've found is often after hookups that I regretted, I'd
feel very cold, like emotionally cold is how my therapist
describes it, and fearful and regretful, and I just would
(46:20):
not feel good. I would kind of just want to
isolate myself, or I'd go the other way and just
go out partying again. So I think it's about really acknowledging, like, Okay,
I don't feel good. What can I do in the
next twenty four or forty eight seventy two hours to
help balance those neurotransmitters. So for me, it's you know,
they say that or you shouldn't. You shouldn't numb on
(46:41):
the sofa with a Netflix and a pizza. But for me,
that is the best thing that I can do that
next day is to be like in the evening, to
be warm, to have a bath, to put on some
really comfy pajamas, to watch a really easy movie that's happy,
to have a pizza, like have something that's like warm
(47:02):
and feels a bit naughty and then to have an
early night. Like I always say, everything is more manageable
the next day, like after a good night's sleep. So
if you are feeling horrible emotions that day and if
you want to text them, okay, write it in your
notes right down, yes, yeah, what you want to say,
(47:22):
And I say this isn't suppression. I just say leave
it twenty four hours, and I guarantee you that when
you come back to that note the next day, after
a good night's sleep, after the alcohol or the drugs
or whatever it is that you know has been involved
in this encounter has won off. After the crash is
starting to come down, you'll look at that message and maybe, like,
(47:43):
if you're like me, you'll be like, thank goodness, I
didn't send that message, like, oh my goodness. And then
you can navigate it. In the forty eight to seventy
two hour mark, when you're feeling a little bit more balanced,
a little bit more calm, a bit more cared for,
you can text them and you can say appreciate your time.
The other night, it brought up some uncomfortable emotions for me.
(48:05):
So I don't think this is a situation that I
want to do with you again. But I do think
you're You're great, You're super handsome, Like I had so
much fun. You know, maybe that's it. You end it
there or whatever your truth, whatever your truth is, I
think you can just send a gentle message so you're
not silenced, so you're not suppressed. And I think that
that kind of seventy two hour window after a hookup,
(48:27):
you can be like, Okay, what can I do in
here that can make me feel better in the time
that if you take her cups badly is going to
make you feel the worst. And I'm going to say
I do this tip. I do this trick where when
I'm feeling super emotional about something in my first instinct
is to like say something immediately in the moment, to
(48:50):
have my fury moment, to have my emotional outlet. I
write it down or I write it in my notes
up and I just leave it. I wait till I
had a clear head. And that's if you're someone who
really does struggle with kind of the emotional complications and
nuances of casual sex, of hook up culture, it might
be really really important. And you know, shout out to
(49:11):
the people who are still listening to this who were like,
I love casual sex. I hook up all the time.
I'm so proud of you, Like, girl, yes, go for it,
go for it. You're You're very lucky that you. Like
I kind of wish I could be that person. I
think I was trying to make myself that person for
a long time, but I'm just not so live your truth,
(49:32):
whatever that may be. Like you said, Louise, oh, I
love that, and I feel the same, you know, if
that's you, I'm so envious, Like I wish like I
could have had more just like fun sexual encounters because
by the age of like twenty five, I was like,
I can't do this anymore. Like I really from the
age of twenty five onwards, I really slept with like
(49:53):
four people because it was like I only slept with
boyfriends thereafter. And sometimes I was like, oh, I there
were five years in my twenties where like I could
have had way more promiscuous fun. So if that's if
that's you, enjoy it for me and Jemma, because we're
not doing it as much as you and I love it.
We do need more empowerment in the world. And if
(50:15):
you're in that empowered category where it feels great for you.
You love it, then kudos to you. And I love
that for you. Yeah, I honestly do. And it's like
that saying, right, like what is empowerment might not always
fear and feel empowering, but if it is empowering to you, like, yeah, kudos, kudos, Yeah, kudos.
I've literally never said the word kudos before, but kudos.
(50:36):
I know it's a beautiful word, isn't it. Well, yeah, kudos. Well,
I want to say kudos to Louise for coming on.
Look at that. What a smooth transition that was. I
really hope that if you're still listening, you have very
mentally enjoyed this episode. Louise, thank you so much for
your wisdom and your kind words. Oh my pleasure, and
(50:59):
I'm just grateful that you've allowed me to bring a
bit of my real life into your incredible science backed episodes.
I think you give everyone exactly what they need to learn,
and I just love this little bit of human human
touch and lived experience. So I have really loved doing
this with you. Thank you so much. Yeah, it was
honestly amazing and probably one of my favorite episodes. I
(51:19):
will also just give you a plug if you you're
not listening to Louise's podcast, the Open House Podcast. It
is incredible, It is amazing. There are so many discussions
much like this one that are available there and that
you should absolutely go and listen to if you want
to expand your mind, you want to hear more information.
(51:41):
I felt this was just the collab that needed to happen.
It was the episode that needed to happen. So thank
you so much once again, and if you did enjoy
this episode, please feel free to leave a five star
review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now.
It really does help the show to grow and reach
(52:01):
new people. Feel free to share this episode with a
friend who might need to hear it. You never know,
and if you want to be more involved with the community,
you want to know what's coming up, what guests we
have on the show, merch things like that. Please follow
us at that Psychology Podcast and have a lovely, lovely week.
We will be back soon with another episode.
Host
Jemma Sbeghen
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