October 1, 2025 • 32 mins
In this bonus release, I am sharing an episode of my other podcast, MANTRA. This week's mantra is I Am Not Here to Manage Other People’s Emotions. It's a common trap to feel responsible for the feelings of those around us, often at the expense of our own emotional well-being. But true empathy means holding space for others without taking on their emotional burden or feeling obligated to fix their feelings.
In this episode of Mantra, we'll explore how to set healthy emotional boundaries, distinguish between compassion and co-dependency, and prioritize your own inner peace. Releasing the need to manage others' emotions isn't about being uncaring; it's about empowering yourself and allowing others to navigate their own emotional landscapes. This Mantra will help you reclaim your energy, honor your boundaries, and cultivate healthier, more authentic relationships.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, It's Gemma, and I'm so excited to share a
special bonus episode with you today. It's actually an episode
of my other podcast, Mantra, which I feel like is
such a great companion to the psychology of your twenties.
If you haven't listened to Mantra before, Each week, I
basically introduce a new mantra, a simple but empowering phrase,
(00:23):
and then I unpack what it means, what it means
to be personally, but also what it means on a
collective level. Plus I share journal prompts, tips, and of
course psychological strategies to help you take each mantra and
put it into action in your life. The episode I'm
sharing with you today is one of my favorites for
(00:44):
the mantra, I am not here to manage other people's emotions.
I think this is something we could all incorporate a
little bit more into our lives. It's definitely a reminder
that I needed, so I'm so excited for you guys
to listen to it and to check it out. And
if you like what you hear, make sure to follow
Mantra on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you are listening.
(01:06):
I'll also include a link to mantra in the episode
notes so you can easily find it happy listening. I
am so enthralled by this mantra. I am in love
with it. It is the one I personally really needed
this week. Let me begin by explaining what it may
look like to manage other people's emotions. Some of you
(01:28):
probably don't need me to tell you. You feel it every day,
but just to make it super clear what we're talking
about here, I want to give a little bit of
a peek behind the curtain, a little bit of a
description managing other people's emotions. It's not feeling bad for someone,
it's not having empathy, it's not expressing kindness. It's when
we take on the responsibility of regulating someone else's internal
(01:52):
state as if it were our own, often at the
expense of our own emotions. It's when someone else is sad, angry, disappointed,
or even just in a bad mood, and we instinctively
adjust our behavior, our mood, our tone, or even our
beliefs to soothe or appease them. So it's not just
(02:14):
about caring how someone else feels. That's a very great
natural human feeling, and it should be promoted it's basically
trying to then control how they feel, believing that if
we just say the right thing, if we fix the problem,
if we're attentive enough, if we cheer them up, if
we keep them calm, then everything is going to be okay.
So it's beyond emotional awareness. It's emotional overcompensating. This looks
(02:40):
like a lot of different things. It might look like
over explaining yourself to prevent someone from getting upset. It
might feel like walking on eggshells, or constantly anticipating how
your words or your actions might be misinterpreted. It might
mean putting your needs, your truth on hold to avoid
set up someone off. It might also look like, you know,
(03:03):
being at an important event for yourself and constantly thinking
about how someone else is feeling, constantly monitoring their emotions
to make sure they're okay, they're having fun, they're not upset,
to the point where you just can't even enjoy yourself anymore.
The defining feature here is ownership. You believe, often unconsciously,
(03:25):
that their emotional response is your burden to carry and
your job to fix. I think it goes without saying.
This can be incredibly training because it places you in
a constant state of hypervigilance, your nervous system starts to
anticipate their disregulation before it happens, therefore disregulating you. You
(03:45):
might catch yourself feeling guilty for things you didn't do,
or feeling responsible for problems you like literally couldn't have prevented.
And what's more, this habit can actually disempower the people
around you because it assumes that they can't manage their
emotions without your intervention. Sometimes what we're really doing is
tweeting someone like a child. It's like we're putting ourselves
(04:06):
in the position of a parent, even though they're an adult.
They can experience hard things, they can endure hard things,
they can learn from those hard things and still be okay.
We often develop the belief that it is our responsibility
to regulate other's emotions very very young, very very early on,
because of conditioning in childhood people. Many of us grew
(04:28):
up in environments where emotional expressions, especially negative ones like anger, sadness,
or frustration, they were not just unpredictable, sometimes they were unsafe.
When a caregiver's mood dictated the tone of the household,
children learned to scan rapidly for emotional shifts and preemptibly
(04:49):
manage them in order to maintain a sense of safety.
In such cases, you know, a child often internalizes a
very distorted sense of control, basically along the lines of
if I can keep them happy, everything will be okay.
Over time, this morphs into a very deeply ingrained belief
that other people's emotions are their personal responsibility. This conditioning
(05:13):
often manifests itself later as trumwell please people, pleasing people pleasing.
A lot of people don't know this is actually a
coping mechanism. It's a coping mechanism rooted in a fear
of reaction and rooted in a fear of disapproval. People
pleasers often over extend themselves emotionally, not just to be liked,
that's only one component of this, but to avoid the
(05:36):
discomfort of someone else's negative reactions. According to psychologist Harriet B. Breakersh's,
the author of the disease to Please, this behavior stems
from a need for external validation and also a subconscious
belief that one's worth is tied to being agreeable, accommodating,
and most importantly, conflict free. When someone gets upset pleaser,
(06:00):
it's not just that they don't want to witness the emotion.
It's that they absorb it, and they believe it's their
duty to fix it, even when they have absolutely no
part in causing it. This self imposed kind of responsibility
becomes exhausting. It often reinforces, as well, a cycle of
hidden self neglect. Let's talk about gender. It's about gender
(06:21):
when it comes to managing other people's emotions because gender.
Socialization definitely complicates this pattern. Women in particular are often
reads to be caretakers, not just of others, but of
their emotions. They are encouraged, even subliminally, to be empathetic, nurturing,
to be very sensitive to other people's needs. Boys, on
the other hand, are typically taught to suppress emotions or
(06:44):
to handle them independently. Both people lose in this situation.
Both genders are losing. As a result, many women grow
up with kind of an invisible curriculum that teaches them
their job is to smooth things over, it is to
regulate ten it's to serve as kind of emotional support systems.
I think this disproportionate expectation. It's not an innate thing.
(07:07):
We're not born with it. It's definitely cultural and It's
led to a phenomenon known in psychology and beyond as
emotional labor, where one person becomes the designated feeler, the
designated fixer, especially in relationships, at the cost of their
own mental and emotional well being. They do more labor
when it comes to holding up other people's feelings and
(07:29):
protecting their feelings. Think at its core, believing we are
responsible for other people's emotions sometimes reflects a lack of
healthy emotional boundaries, and this is often shaped by trauma.
It's shaped by unmet needs, it's shaped by the past,
It's shaped by subconscious fears. From a psychological standpoint, this
(07:49):
belief really blurs the lines between what we call enmeshment
and empathy. Empathy is great. Empathy allows us to feel
with someone else. It allows us to see things from
their perspective and be compassionate. Enmeshment, on the other hand,
traps us in feeling for them. It becomes hard to
(08:13):
differentiate with enmeshment when their emotions end and ours begin.
This is also very costly to our relationships. I think
that goes without saying to us, managing other people's emotions
might feel like devotion, It might feel like sacrifice and kindness,
all things we were taught are very valuable to display
in a relationship. But love doesn't require us to be
(08:35):
emotional shock absorbers. Real intimacy doesn't thrive in a relationship
when one person is always managing the other person, and
so they end up feeling resentful and burnt out, and
they end up feeling kind of like a bit of
a quiet grief for what they're missing out of in
a relationship. Ironically, I think it also stunts genuine closeness
because you guys, know this true connection isn't built on
(08:57):
emotional performance. It's not built on perfection. It's built on real,
deep honesty and intimacy and hard moments and autonomy, but
also on mutual recognition both people are able to come
to the table with their baggage and you sort through
it together rather than just one person taking over. Listen,
I want to say, it's not that you're being cruel,
(09:18):
quite the opposite, and it's not like you can't help
someone with what they're going through or help them with
a bad day. What I'm saying is when this becomes
your biggest and only priority, it can become harmful holding
space for someone else's emotions without shrinking ourselves. Really starts
with understanding that empathy and self abandonment are not the
same thing. True empathy the time we really want to
(09:41):
celebrate means being with someone in their emotional experience, not
absorbing it, not fixing it, not making yourself small so
they can be okay. It means say I see this,
I see you, I hear you, I'm here, without saying
I'm going to take this all away, without taking their
(10:03):
pain on you as your own personal sacrifice. This requires
emotional boundaries. It requires the ability to care without carrying,
and just to listen. Just listen and be present. A
key part of this is also just checking in with
your nervous system when you're supporting others, because often it
is an instinct to jump right in and then want
(10:23):
to fix everything, and then to see your own nervous
system and your own stress response spike. So really ask yourself,
am I grounded? Do I feel safe? Am I abandoning
my own needs or values in this moment? Is this
upsetting me such that I can't enjoy my own experiences?
If the answer is yes, it's a sign you may
(10:45):
be overextending and overcompensating. So in those moments, please remind
yourself their feelings are totally valid, but they are also
not mine to fix. This person is fully capable of
managing their own emotions with my help. I don't need
to fix it. I just need to be there with them.
It also means practicing honest communication, which I know can
(11:08):
be so hard for those of us who are conflict averse.
I personally really struggle with this. I don't want to
stir the pot. I don't want to make things more difficult,
so I just ignore it altogether. But there are some
phrases that you can practice, you can bring into your
vocabulary that can really help you out. You can say
things like I really want to be here for you,
but I also need a moment to catch my breath.
(11:30):
Or I care about how you're feeling and I want
to support you, but I don't want to lose myself
in the process. There's kind of emotional honesty. It's really vulnerable.
It's hard, but it also sets a powerful tone and boundary.
I love you, but I'm not going to matter myself
for you. In fact, I think it also makes the
(11:51):
bond between you stronger. If they're used to asking you
for things all the time. This is you asking them
for something. It levels out the plan also, And I
know it's going to feel strange doing this, but sometimes
you just have to let them be angry and just
to watch that feeling and let them be tired, let
them be hungry, let them make mistakes, and then let
(12:13):
them help themselves. If someone truly doesn't know how to
self regulate, you're not helping them any further. By keeping
them dependent on you. You think you're helping, you are hurting
them if they genuinely don't have the skills to do this.
I think what this martal really invites us to do
is just to examine the ways that we've internalized responsibility
(12:34):
for other people's emotional states, and just a question is
that responsibility ever truly ours. It's not about indifference, It's
about recognizing the limits about role in someone else's inner world.
We can't get into their brain and switch on the
different switches. We have to just sometimes view what's going
on from the outside. Okay, we are going to take
(12:58):
a short little break, but afterwards, I'm going to share
with you all how this is show up in my
own life, especially recently. What I've learned, where I've struggled,
what I am still figuring out.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Stay with us.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Okay, now that we've looked at the meaning behind today's mancher,
I'm not here to manage other people's emotions. It's time
to get personal with you guys and share some of
my own insights and reflections about this phrase. The place
in the spaces where I feel most responsible for other
people's emotions is in big group situations, and I'm sure
(13:37):
a lot of you can relate to this. When I
have invited people to my house, when I'm away on
a trip with my girlfriends, when I'm hanging out with
a big group of people, I always feel like I
have to make sure everyone is having fun, everyone is
enjoying themselves. Not a single person can feel left out,
(13:58):
or feel bored, or feel any sort of bad feeling,
And if they do, like that is terrible. I have
failed as a host. I have failed as a friend.
I don't really know when I first learned to do this.
I just kind of know that I always have. Since
I was very young. I think I saw discomfort, conflicts,
(14:20):
so called negative emotions as kind of a threat, especially
if someone else was feeling them. I thought that how
they were feeling was a reflection of the emotional environment
I was creating in that moment. What that doesn't recognize
is that people are going to come into a situation
with all kinds of emotional baggage, all kinds of stuff
that's annoyed them and frustrated them from their day, all
(14:43):
kind of stuff from their past. I feel like sometimes
when we try to regulate other people's emotions, we kind
of have this, like somewhat god complex that we are
that significant in this person's life that we could change
their feelings more than the combination of everything else that's
going on with them, which is not true. I was
(15:04):
talking about where I first learned to do this, and
I do think upon further reflection, probably in my case,
it has to do with being an eldest daughter. Being
an eldest daughter, I'm sure a lot of you eldest
daughters relate. It often really intensifies the pressure to manage
other people's emotions, because from an early age, a lot
of us are cast into the role of emotional anchor caretaker,
(15:28):
third parent, whether explicitly or kind of asked or silently expected,
we are often the ones who smooth over conflict, we
look after younger siblings, we support overwhelmed parents, and sometimes
we do set the emotional tone for the household. So
it's not just about a sense of responsibility. It's about
invisible labor, a form of emotional and relational work that
(15:53):
a lot of women do that often goes unnoticed but
really shapes how we, as eldest daughters come to see
ourselves that this role as caretaker as part of our identity.
Everything and everyone must be happy, safe together. This early
emotional caregiving thing, as I said, does become part of
our identity. We learn to anticipate the needs of others
(16:14):
before their own needs even register. Sometimes we might actually
enjoy it a little bit. I know this is going
to sound strange, but we might really kind of revel
in the fact that we are so helpful, and revel
in the fact that we are so emotionally aware, because
that's another component of this. People who feel like they
have to manage other people's emotions are often incredibly emotionally
(16:36):
intelligent and incredibly emotionally perceptive. That feels like a good
thing because it is that it feels like a positive
attribute and a positive quality. So it's hard to disentangle
where that quality becomes quite negative and dangerous, because if
we've only grown up or taught ourselves to see this
as a positive trait and as something that should be celebrated,
(17:00):
recognizing the downsides of this is very hard because it
means recognizing that perhaps not that we have flaws, but
there are some downsides to our identity as adults as well.
A lot of eldest daughters, a lot of people who
feel this position may find themselves in friendships or romantic
relationships where again, they just keep replaying and revising the
(17:22):
same role, the role of fixer, peacemaker, therapist at some point,
not because they want to anymore, but because again it
feels natural, because love to them has meant doing more,
being more, absorbing, more, managing more. The consequences of this
have become a lot more apparent the older I've become.
(17:44):
Tell me if you relate to these feelings. I feel
like I always feel stressed in social situations, I have
less fun. I always feel like I'm the person having
the least fun. Sometimes I also feel resentment towards people
that don't deserve it. I'm the one who has put
them in the position where they have been forced to
(18:05):
kind of rely on me. I'm the one who has
tried to control the emotional tone of the situation. It's
my fault in a sense. Part of this also is
that I avoid things that need to be said. I'm
also a very sensitive person, and if someone is even
slightly upset or mad, I believe that they are upset
or mad at me, and that can be very devastating.
(18:27):
So when there are things that actually need to be
said and that would actually improve our friendship or our relationship,
I just don't say them. I would prefer the lesser
discomfort of being hypervigilant towards their emotional reactions than a
full blown conflict. Something I've learned, probably in the last
couple of years is that avoiding conflict is a sometimes
(18:49):
a sign of emotional immaturity that you don't think you
can handle big emotions, so you avoid them. B It's
also ninety nine to one hundred percent of the time
go to make your relationship suffer more when you just
put something out on the table or put something out
into the open and say I'm upset about this, I'm
scared about this, I'm angry about this. You resolve it
(19:11):
so much quicker than if you let it sit in
your stomach, in your brain, in your heart, in your
mind for so much longer. Often, managing other people's emotions
also goes hand in hand with avoiding conflict, and with
avoiding speaking up for yourself and just reflecting on your truth.
So here's how I'm trying to change this people pleasing
(19:35):
sense of ownership emotional responsibility. Firstly, I'm just trying to
notice when I'm doing it. The first step in anything
is awareness. I've really been training myself just to pause
when I feel that urge or like jump in, to
just like pause when I feel like that tension in
my chest, to pause when I feel like I need
to start over explaining, or when I feel overly responsible
(19:57):
for how someone might react. I just ask myself, am
I speaking or am I acting out of fear of
how they feel rather than what's true for me? Does
this person actually need my help right now? What am
I trying to prove or say for this person by
trying to help them? Is it empathy? Is it enmeshment?
Just naming it and saying I'm trying way too hard
(20:18):
to manage their emotions right now and this is not
going to be helpful. Helps me step out of that
autopilot kind of eldest daughter response. Secondly, I just have
to remind myself at the end of the day, I
don't see my emotions as anyone else's responsibility. They don't
see their emotions as my responsibility. Their emotions are not
mine to fix. When someone is upset, I want to
(20:41):
rush in. I want to soften it. I want to
fix it. I want to make them feel better so
I don't have to sit with the discomfort. I'm actually
doing it for me. I'm the one who is uncomfortable.
But when I gently tell myself I can care without carrying,
this person is fully capable of managing this themselves. If
I say to myself, I can help someone with the
(21:02):
negative consequences, I can't help them with the cause or
the origin, that small shift really changes everything. I also
am trying, perhaps not always successfully, just to speak honestly,
even when it's uncomfortable, instead of managing their emotional responses.
I'm trying, and I'm practicing, saying what I really mean
without cushioning it or diluting it to protect their feelings.
(21:25):
That might sound like saying I know this may disappoint you,
but I need to say no. Or I can see
you're upset, and I just trust that you can handle
that in your own way. I can see you need
space to think about this. I can see you need
space to manage this. I'm going to just step away
for a second and let you do that. I don't
need the answer right now. It's respect. I respect them,
(21:47):
I respect me. The final step to this process is
just being okay with being uncomfortable, Being okay with awkward silences,
with someone frowning, with someone obviously being upset at you.
Don't chase reassurance, don't clean up their reaction. Breathe, ground yourself,
Remind yourself I'm not doing anything wrong by letting them
(22:10):
feel what they feel. Over time, I've noticed, you know,
the world doesn't fall apart when I stop managing it,
and neither do my relationships. They've gotten more honest, they've
gotten more for feeling, They've gotten healthier. I feel like
I know people on a deeper level now because I'm
seeing parts of them that previously maybe I avoided seeing,
or maybe I kind of incidentally like covered up for
(22:32):
my own sake. It's a hard truth to really recognize
about yourself, but once you get there, there's no looking back.
And also you've just realize how much happier you are,
how much easier and lighter your relationships feel. All right,
now that we've unpacked what this mantra really means and
how it has shown up for me, it's time to
(22:54):
look at what we can do to bring this idea
into action in our day to day lives. I'm going
to share, of course, some journal prompts you guys know,
I will always do that, but also our weekly challenge,
So please, my lovely listeners stick around for more after
this short break, welcome back. Let's take a few minutes
(23:17):
just to really ground ourselves in this week's mantra. I'm
not here to manage other people's emotions. The first thing
I want to do is start with our deep thought
of the day, you guys know, in every Marchra episode,
I like to bring in some wisdom from you know,
a bunch of people who are smarter than me and
who have probably thought about this a great deal more
than me. Today, our deep thought is coming from someone
(23:39):
called Netra Clover to wop the greatest gift you can
give someone is the space to deal with their own emotions.
This quote, what I think is saying to me is
I believe you are capable of holding your own sadness,
your own anger, your own uncertainty, even when it's high.
(24:00):
I have confidence in you. It's resisting the urge to rescue,
to interrupt, to reframe their experience before they've had the
chance to fully feel it. And it's choosing to witness
without interfering. That is a gift. That is a gift.
You're helping them learn to swim. Yeah, maybe it's the
hard way that they're never going to learn if you
(24:22):
don't take a step back. When we try to carry
someone's emotions for them, we may be doing it out
of care. In fact, I think one percent of the
time we're doing it out of care. But we're also
sending a quiet message I don't think you can handle this.
That's not a good feeling for someone else. Giving someone's space, however,
is an act of deep respect. It honors the fact
(24:43):
that growth often comes with really uncomfortable moments that you
have had to endure, moments of grappling that you have
had to endure. But the emotional strength that you have
has probably been built in that struggle because of it,
not because of the avoidance of it. So it's it's
not absence. You're not ignoring them, avoiding them wanting them
(25:04):
to be hurt. Its presence without the pressure. It's letting
silence do its work, letting discomforts speak, letting them arrive
at their own clarity, not the one that we hand them.
That's really powerful, and again that's a gift. With that
in mind, let's sow down and just sit with this
(25:24):
week's mantra. We're going to do our journal prompts. Now.
Remember these journal prompts. They're just here to help you
check in with where you are, what's coming up with
this mantra might be guiding you. There are no wrong
or right answers. And like I say every single week,
if journaling isn't your thing, I know for some people
it doesn't really resonate with them. If you just don't
have your journal nearby, that is totally okay. You can
(25:46):
always pause this episode between questions just to take a
quiet moment to reflect, or just save these prompts for later.
Typically I share three questions a week, but this mantra
felt very very important. So I actually have four Let's
get into them first. When do you tend to take
(26:06):
on emotional responsibility that isn't yours? And what do you
fear might happen if you stop? Next? What childhood or
early life dynamics shaped your instinct to manage other people's emotions?
Can you trace this urge back to perhaps an emotional
(26:27):
origin in your past? Now? Do you ever confuse maybe
keeping the peace with being at peace? What is the
difference between keeping the peace and being at peace for you?
And finally, when you over explain when you apologize unnecessarily
or downplay your needs, who are you protecting and why?
(26:53):
Now that you have made the space to reflect, let's
give your mind a moment to rest. In just a second,
you hear a music track. I just encourage you to
take this opportunity to process this week's reflections in whatever
ways feel right to you. No pressure, no expectations from me.
And if this isn't something that you connect with, that's
(27:14):
totally okay. Just give ahead about thirty seconds and we
will be back. But as you settle in, please keep
our mantra in mind with you today. I am not
here to manage other people's emotions as the music plays,
just let this mancho shape your thoughts. Take the time
to just connect with whatever it is bringing up for
you in this moment. Beautiful, Now that you've had that
(28:05):
very nice, special moment, just to reset and to ground yourself,
let's take that energy. Let's bring it into action with
of course, our weekly challenge. I'd love to hear how
this goes for you, so if you want to reach
out to me on Instagram at Mantra open Mind, please
share any follow ups, whether this helped you in any way,
(28:30):
what you learned, and also any questions or dine lemmas
you might have relating to this episode or any other
for our special bonus episodes, which are available exclusively on
Open Mind Plus. Okay, are you ready for this week's challenge?
This week's challenge is the Unfiltered No Challenge. I want
you to say no to something this week without over explaining,
(28:54):
without stoppening, without trying to manage or overthink how someone
else might take it. Just a clear, respectful no and
then pause, then move on. It's going to feel uncomfortable.
Just notice why you're feeling that in your body, and
notice when you find resolution from it because this emotion
will pass. You can't live with discomfort for very long.
(29:18):
It's not how your body is wired. So don't fear
an emotion that really isn't going to be there for
all too long. Good luck with your challenge. Let me
know how it goes. I'm also going to do it,
and I'll let you guys know how it goes for
me as well. All right, as we wrap up this
week's episode, I feel like it was a big one.
(29:40):
I just want to share a few final thoughts about
this mantra. I am not here to manage other people's emotions.
My final thought is this, when we try to manage
other people's emotions, but we are self abandoning and we
are basically saying your emotional state and your emotional reactions
mean more than my own. Because when you try and
help that person hold the support them, often you're doing
(30:02):
so and you're creating your own discomfort, and you're creating
a situation that you're not enjoying and you don't feel
good about it. Why are their emotions any more important
than yours? How come you are fully responsible for your
emotions that you can't recognize that other people can be
fully responsible for theirs as well. This is not about
(30:23):
ignoring people, neglecting people, not offering a helping hand when
you see them struggling. It's about this not being the
status quo for you, This not being the only way
you can help someone. If you take one thing away
from this episode, let it be this. You are not
here to regulate the emotional weather around you. You are
(30:44):
here to live in alignment with your values, your truth,
your peace. That's going to make you a better friend,
It's going to make your relationship stronger. I promise you
that letting go of the need to manage other people's
emotions it's not selfish. It's actually very help for them
as well, to learn and to feel their own personal
sense of emotional autonomy and personal responsibility. This week and beyond,
(31:10):
celebrate that return, Honor that return, and trust that when
you do, what's real is going to remain and you're
going to be okay.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Thank you for joining Manchra, an exclusive Open Mind original
powered by Pave Studios. At open Mind, we value your support,
so share your thoughts on social media and remember to rate, review,
and follow Mantra to help others discover the show for
ad free listening and early access to Mantra with me
jemis Beg. We invite you to subscribe to open Mind
(31:41):
Plus on Apple Podcasts. I will share another insightful and
introspective Mantra with you next Monday. Until then, keep showing
up for yourself and your journey. I'm Jemas Beg, See
you next week.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Mantra is hosted by me Jemis Beg is an Open
Mind original power by pay Studios. This episode was brought
to life by the incredible Mantra team Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro,
Stacy Warrenker, Sarah Kemp, and paul Leberskin. Thank you for listening.
To catch more episodes of Mantra, make sure to follow
(32:17):
Mantra wherever you get your podcasts. There is also a
link in today's show notes. Talk Soon,
Hi, It's Gemma, and I'm so excited to share a
special bonus episode with you today. It's actually an episode
of my other podcast, Mantra, which I feel like is
such a great companion to the psychology of your twenties.
If you haven't listened to Mantra before, Each week, I
basically introduce a new mantra, a simple but empowering phrase,
(00:23):
and then I unpack what it means, what it means
to be personally, but also what it means on a
collective level. Plus I share journal prompts, tips, and of
course psychological strategies to help you take each mantra and
put it into action in your life. The episode I'm
sharing with you today is one of my favorites for
(00:44):
the mantra, I am not here to manage other people's emotions.
I think this is something we could all incorporate a
little bit more into our lives. It's definitely a reminder
that I needed, so I'm so excited for you guys
to listen to it and to check it out. And
if you like what you hear, make sure to follow
Mantra on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you are listening.
(01:06):
I'll also include a link to mantra in the episode
notes so you can easily find it happy listening. I
am so enthralled by this mantra. I am in love
with it. It is the one I personally really needed
this week. Let me begin by explaining what it may
look like to manage other people's emotions. Some of you
(01:28):
probably don't need me to tell you. You feel it every day,
but just to make it super clear what we're talking
about here, I want to give a little bit of
a peek behind the curtain, a little bit of a
description managing other people's emotions. It's not feeling bad for someone,
it's not having empathy, it's not expressing kindness. It's when
we take on the responsibility of regulating someone else's internal
(01:52):
state as if it were our own, often at the
expense of our own emotions. It's when someone else is sad, angry, disappointed,
or even just in a bad mood, and we instinctively
adjust our behavior, our mood, our tone, or even our
beliefs to soothe or appease them. So it's not just
(02:14):
about caring how someone else feels. That's a very great
natural human feeling, and it should be promoted it's basically
trying to then control how they feel, believing that if
we just say the right thing, if we fix the problem,
if we're attentive enough, if we cheer them up, if
we keep them calm, then everything is going to be okay.
So it's beyond emotional awareness. It's emotional overcompensating. This looks
(02:40):
like a lot of different things. It might look like
over explaining yourself to prevent someone from getting upset. It
might feel like walking on eggshells, or constantly anticipating how
your words or your actions might be misinterpreted. It might
mean putting your needs, your truth on hold to avoid
set up someone off. It might also look like, you know,
(03:03):
being at an important event for yourself and constantly thinking
about how someone else is feeling, constantly monitoring their emotions
to make sure they're okay, they're having fun, they're not upset,
to the point where you just can't even enjoy yourself anymore.
The defining feature here is ownership. You believe, often unconsciously,
(03:25):
that their emotional response is your burden to carry and
your job to fix. I think it goes without saying.
This can be incredibly training because it places you in
a constant state of hypervigilance, your nervous system starts to
anticipate their disregulation before it happens, therefore disregulating you. You
(03:45):
might catch yourself feeling guilty for things you didn't do,
or feeling responsible for problems you like literally couldn't have prevented.
And what's more, this habit can actually disempower the people
around you because it assumes that they can't manage their
emotions without your intervention. Sometimes what we're really doing is
tweeting someone like a child. It's like we're putting ourselves
(04:06):
in the position of a parent, even though they're an adult.
They can experience hard things, they can endure hard things,
they can learn from those hard things and still be okay.
We often develop the belief that it is our responsibility
to regulate other's emotions very very young, very very early on,
because of conditioning in childhood people. Many of us grew
(04:28):
up in environments where emotional expressions, especially negative ones like anger, sadness,
or frustration, they were not just unpredictable, sometimes they were unsafe.
When a caregiver's mood dictated the tone of the household,
children learned to scan rapidly for emotional shifts and preemptibly
(04:49):
manage them in order to maintain a sense of safety.
In such cases, you know, a child often internalizes a
very distorted sense of control, basically along the lines of
if I can keep them happy, everything will be okay.
Over time, this morphs into a very deeply ingrained belief
that other people's emotions are their personal responsibility. This conditioning
(05:13):
often manifests itself later as trumwell please people, pleasing people pleasing.
A lot of people don't know this is actually a
coping mechanism. It's a coping mechanism rooted in a fear
of reaction and rooted in a fear of disapproval. People
pleasers often over extend themselves emotionally, not just to be liked,
that's only one component of this, but to avoid the
(05:36):
discomfort of someone else's negative reactions. According to psychologist Harriet B. Breakersh's,
the author of the disease to Please, this behavior stems
from a need for external validation and also a subconscious
belief that one's worth is tied to being agreeable, accommodating,
and most importantly, conflict free. When someone gets upset pleaser,
(06:00):
it's not just that they don't want to witness the emotion.
It's that they absorb it, and they believe it's their
duty to fix it, even when they have absolutely no
part in causing it. This self imposed kind of responsibility
becomes exhausting. It often reinforces, as well, a cycle of
hidden self neglect. Let's talk about gender. It's about gender
(06:21):
when it comes to managing other people's emotions because gender.
Socialization definitely complicates this pattern. Women in particular are often
reads to be caretakers, not just of others, but of
their emotions. They are encouraged, even subliminally, to be empathetic, nurturing,
to be very sensitive to other people's needs. Boys, on
the other hand, are typically taught to suppress emotions or
(06:44):
to handle them independently. Both people lose in this situation.
Both genders are losing. As a result, many women grow
up with kind of an invisible curriculum that teaches them
their job is to smooth things over, it is to
regulate ten it's to serve as kind of emotional support systems.
I think this disproportionate expectation. It's not an innate thing.
(07:07):
We're not born with it. It's definitely cultural and It's
led to a phenomenon known in psychology and beyond as
emotional labor, where one person becomes the designated feeler, the
designated fixer, especially in relationships, at the cost of their
own mental and emotional well being. They do more labor
when it comes to holding up other people's feelings and
(07:29):
protecting their feelings. Think at its core, believing we are
responsible for other people's emotions sometimes reflects a lack of
healthy emotional boundaries, and this is often shaped by trauma.
It's shaped by unmet needs, it's shaped by the past,
It's shaped by subconscious fears. From a psychological standpoint, this
(07:49):
belief really blurs the lines between what we call enmeshment
and empathy. Empathy is great. Empathy allows us to feel
with someone else. It allows us to see things from
their perspective and be compassionate. Enmeshment, on the other hand,
traps us in feeling for them. It becomes hard to
(08:13):
differentiate with enmeshment when their emotions end and ours begin.
This is also very costly to our relationships. I think
that goes without saying to us, managing other people's emotions
might feel like devotion, It might feel like sacrifice and kindness,
all things we were taught are very valuable to display
in a relationship. But love doesn't require us to be
(08:35):
emotional shock absorbers. Real intimacy doesn't thrive in a relationship
when one person is always managing the other person, and
so they end up feeling resentful and burnt out, and
they end up feeling kind of like a bit of
a quiet grief for what they're missing out of in
a relationship. Ironically, I think it also stunts genuine closeness
because you guys, know this true connection isn't built on
(08:57):
emotional performance. It's not built on perfection. It's built on real,
deep honesty and intimacy and hard moments and autonomy, but
also on mutual recognition both people are able to come
to the table with their baggage and you sort through
it together rather than just one person taking over. Listen,
I want to say, it's not that you're being cruel,
(09:18):
quite the opposite, and it's not like you can't help
someone with what they're going through or help them with
a bad day. What I'm saying is when this becomes
your biggest and only priority, it can become harmful holding
space for someone else's emotions without shrinking ourselves. Really starts
with understanding that empathy and self abandonment are not the
same thing. True empathy the time we really want to
(09:41):
celebrate means being with someone in their emotional experience, not
absorbing it, not fixing it, not making yourself small so
they can be okay. It means say I see this,
I see you, I hear you, I'm here, without saying
I'm going to take this all away, without taking their
(10:03):
pain on you as your own personal sacrifice. This requires
emotional boundaries. It requires the ability to care without carrying,
and just to listen. Just listen and be present. A
key part of this is also just checking in with
your nervous system when you're supporting others, because often it
is an instinct to jump right in and then want
(10:23):
to fix everything, and then to see your own nervous
system and your own stress response spike. So really ask yourself,
am I grounded? Do I feel safe? Am I abandoning
my own needs or values in this moment? Is this
upsetting me such that I can't enjoy my own experiences?
If the answer is yes, it's a sign you may
(10:45):
be overextending and overcompensating. So in those moments, please remind
yourself their feelings are totally valid, but they are also
not mine to fix. This person is fully capable of
managing their own emotions with my help. I don't need
to fix it. I just need to be there with them.
It also means practicing honest communication, which I know can
(11:08):
be so hard for those of us who are conflict averse.
I personally really struggle with this. I don't want to
stir the pot. I don't want to make things more difficult,
so I just ignore it altogether. But there are some
phrases that you can practice, you can bring into your
vocabulary that can really help you out. You can say
things like I really want to be here for you,
but I also need a moment to catch my breath.
(11:30):
Or I care about how you're feeling and I want
to support you, but I don't want to lose myself
in the process. There's kind of emotional honesty. It's really vulnerable.
It's hard, but it also sets a powerful tone and boundary.
I love you, but I'm not going to matter myself
for you. In fact, I think it also makes the
(11:51):
bond between you stronger. If they're used to asking you
for things all the time. This is you asking them
for something. It levels out the plan also, And I
know it's going to feel strange doing this, but sometimes
you just have to let them be angry and just
to watch that feeling and let them be tired, let
them be hungry, let them make mistakes, and then let
(12:13):
them help themselves. If someone truly doesn't know how to
self regulate, you're not helping them any further. By keeping
them dependent on you. You think you're helping, you are hurting
them if they genuinely don't have the skills to do this.
I think what this martal really invites us to do
is just to examine the ways that we've internalized responsibility
(12:34):
for other people's emotional states, and just a question is
that responsibility ever truly ours. It's not about indifference, It's
about recognizing the limits about role in someone else's inner world.
We can't get into their brain and switch on the
different switches. We have to just sometimes view what's going
on from the outside. Okay, we are going to take
(12:58):
a short little break, but afterwards, I'm going to share
with you all how this is show up in my
own life, especially recently. What I've learned, where I've struggled,
what I am still figuring out.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Stay with us.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Okay, now that we've looked at the meaning behind today's mancher,
I'm not here to manage other people's emotions. It's time
to get personal with you guys and share some of
my own insights and reflections about this phrase. The place
in the spaces where I feel most responsible for other
people's emotions is in big group situations, and I'm sure
(13:37):
a lot of you can relate to this. When I
have invited people to my house, when I'm away on
a trip with my girlfriends, when I'm hanging out with
a big group of people, I always feel like I
have to make sure everyone is having fun, everyone is
enjoying themselves. Not a single person can feel left out,
(13:58):
or feel bored, or feel any sort of bad feeling,
And if they do, like that is terrible. I have
failed as a host. I have failed as a friend.
I don't really know when I first learned to do this.
I just kind of know that I always have. Since
I was very young. I think I saw discomfort, conflicts,
(14:20):
so called negative emotions as kind of a threat, especially
if someone else was feeling them. I thought that how
they were feeling was a reflection of the emotional environment
I was creating in that moment. What that doesn't recognize
is that people are going to come into a situation
with all kinds of emotional baggage, all kinds of stuff
that's annoyed them and frustrated them from their day, all
(14:43):
kind of stuff from their past. I feel like sometimes
when we try to regulate other people's emotions, we kind
of have this, like somewhat god complex that we are
that significant in this person's life that we could change
their feelings more than the combination of everything else that's
going on with them, which is not true. I was
(15:04):
talking about where I first learned to do this, and
I do think upon further reflection, probably in my case,
it has to do with being an eldest daughter. Being
an eldest daughter, I'm sure a lot of you eldest
daughters relate. It often really intensifies the pressure to manage
other people's emotions, because from an early age, a lot
of us are cast into the role of emotional anchor caretaker,
(15:28):
third parent, whether explicitly or kind of asked or silently expected,
we are often the ones who smooth over conflict, we
look after younger siblings, we support overwhelmed parents, and sometimes
we do set the emotional tone for the household. So
it's not just about a sense of responsibility. It's about
invisible labor, a form of emotional and relational work that
(15:53):
a lot of women do that often goes unnoticed but
really shapes how we, as eldest daughters come to see
ourselves that this role as caretaker as part of our identity.
Everything and everyone must be happy, safe together. This early
emotional caregiving thing, as I said, does become part of
our identity. We learn to anticipate the needs of others
(16:14):
before their own needs even register. Sometimes we might actually
enjoy it a little bit. I know this is going
to sound strange, but we might really kind of revel
in the fact that we are so helpful, and revel
in the fact that we are so emotionally aware, because
that's another component of this. People who feel like they
have to manage other people's emotions are often incredibly emotionally
(16:36):
intelligent and incredibly emotionally perceptive. That feels like a good
thing because it is that it feels like a positive
attribute and a positive quality. So it's hard to disentangle
where that quality becomes quite negative and dangerous, because if
we've only grown up or taught ourselves to see this
as a positive trait and as something that should be celebrated,
(17:00):
recognizing the downsides of this is very hard because it
means recognizing that perhaps not that we have flaws, but
there are some downsides to our identity as adults as well.
A lot of eldest daughters, a lot of people who
feel this position may find themselves in friendships or romantic
relationships where again, they just keep replaying and revising the
(17:22):
same role, the role of fixer, peacemaker, therapist at some point,
not because they want to anymore, but because again it
feels natural, because love to them has meant doing more,
being more, absorbing, more, managing more. The consequences of this
have become a lot more apparent the older I've become.
(17:44):
Tell me if you relate to these feelings. I feel
like I always feel stressed in social situations, I have
less fun. I always feel like I'm the person having
the least fun. Sometimes I also feel resentment towards people
that don't deserve it. I'm the one who has put
them in the position where they have been forced to
(18:05):
kind of rely on me. I'm the one who has
tried to control the emotional tone of the situation. It's
my fault in a sense. Part of this also is
that I avoid things that need to be said. I'm
also a very sensitive person, and if someone is even
slightly upset or mad, I believe that they are upset
or mad at me, and that can be very devastating.
(18:27):
So when there are things that actually need to be
said and that would actually improve our friendship or our relationship,
I just don't say them. I would prefer the lesser
discomfort of being hypervigilant towards their emotional reactions than a
full blown conflict. Something I've learned, probably in the last
couple of years is that avoiding conflict is a sometimes
(18:49):
a sign of emotional immaturity that you don't think you
can handle big emotions, so you avoid them. B It's
also ninety nine to one hundred percent of the time
go to make your relationship suffer more when you just
put something out on the table or put something out
into the open and say I'm upset about this, I'm
scared about this, I'm angry about this. You resolve it
(19:11):
so much quicker than if you let it sit in
your stomach, in your brain, in your heart, in your
mind for so much longer. Often, managing other people's emotions
also goes hand in hand with avoiding conflict, and with
avoiding speaking up for yourself and just reflecting on your truth.
So here's how I'm trying to change this people pleasing
(19:35):
sense of ownership emotional responsibility. Firstly, I'm just trying to
notice when I'm doing it. The first step in anything
is awareness. I've really been training myself just to pause
when I feel that urge or like jump in, to
just like pause when I feel like that tension in
my chest, to pause when I feel like I need
to start over explaining, or when I feel overly responsible
(19:57):
for how someone might react. I just ask myself, am
I speaking or am I acting out of fear of
how they feel rather than what's true for me? Does
this person actually need my help right now? What am
I trying to prove or say for this person by
trying to help them? Is it empathy? Is it enmeshment?
Just naming it and saying I'm trying way too hard
(20:18):
to manage their emotions right now and this is not
going to be helpful. Helps me step out of that
autopilot kind of eldest daughter response. Secondly, I just have
to remind myself at the end of the day, I
don't see my emotions as anyone else's responsibility. They don't
see their emotions as my responsibility. Their emotions are not
mine to fix. When someone is upset, I want to
(20:41):
rush in. I want to soften it. I want to
fix it. I want to make them feel better so
I don't have to sit with the discomfort. I'm actually
doing it for me. I'm the one who is uncomfortable.
But when I gently tell myself I can care without carrying,
this person is fully capable of managing this themselves. If
I say to myself, I can help someone with the
(21:02):
negative consequences, I can't help them with the cause or
the origin, that small shift really changes everything. I also
am trying, perhaps not always successfully, just to speak honestly,
even when it's uncomfortable, instead of managing their emotional responses.
I'm trying, and I'm practicing, saying what I really mean
without cushioning it or diluting it to protect their feelings.
(21:25):
That might sound like saying I know this may disappoint you,
but I need to say no. Or I can see
you're upset, and I just trust that you can handle
that in your own way. I can see you need
space to think about this. I can see you need
space to manage this. I'm going to just step away
for a second and let you do that. I don't
need the answer right now. It's respect. I respect them,
(21:47):
I respect me. The final step to this process is
just being okay with being uncomfortable, Being okay with awkward silences,
with someone frowning, with someone obviously being upset at you.
Don't chase reassurance, don't clean up their reaction. Breathe, ground yourself,
Remind yourself I'm not doing anything wrong by letting them
(22:10):
feel what they feel. Over time, I've noticed, you know,
the world doesn't fall apart when I stop managing it,
and neither do my relationships. They've gotten more honest, they've
gotten more for feeling, They've gotten healthier. I feel like
I know people on a deeper level now because I'm
seeing parts of them that previously maybe I avoided seeing,
or maybe I kind of incidentally like covered up for
(22:32):
my own sake. It's a hard truth to really recognize
about yourself, but once you get there, there's no looking back.
And also you've just realize how much happier you are,
how much easier and lighter your relationships feel. All right,
now that we've unpacked what this mantra really means and
how it has shown up for me, it's time to
(22:54):
look at what we can do to bring this idea
into action in our day to day lives. I'm going
to share, of course, some journal prompts you guys know,
I will always do that, but also our weekly challenge,
So please, my lovely listeners stick around for more after
this short break, welcome back. Let's take a few minutes
(23:17):
just to really ground ourselves in this week's mantra. I'm
not here to manage other people's emotions. The first thing
I want to do is start with our deep thought
of the day, you guys know, in every Marchra episode,
I like to bring in some wisdom from you know,
a bunch of people who are smarter than me and
who have probably thought about this a great deal more
than me. Today, our deep thought is coming from someone
(23:39):
called Netra Clover to wop the greatest gift you can
give someone is the space to deal with their own emotions.
This quote, what I think is saying to me is
I believe you are capable of holding your own sadness,
your own anger, your own uncertainty, even when it's high.
(24:00):
I have confidence in you. It's resisting the urge to rescue,
to interrupt, to reframe their experience before they've had the
chance to fully feel it. And it's choosing to witness
without interfering. That is a gift. That is a gift.
You're helping them learn to swim. Yeah, maybe it's the
hard way that they're never going to learn if you
(24:22):
don't take a step back. When we try to carry
someone's emotions for them, we may be doing it out
of care. In fact, I think one percent of the
time we're doing it out of care. But we're also
sending a quiet message I don't think you can handle this.
That's not a good feeling for someone else. Giving someone's space, however,
is an act of deep respect. It honors the fact
(24:43):
that growth often comes with really uncomfortable moments that you
have had to endure, moments of grappling that you have
had to endure. But the emotional strength that you have
has probably been built in that struggle because of it,
not because of the avoidance of it. So it's it's
not absence. You're not ignoring them, avoiding them wanting them
(25:04):
to be hurt. Its presence without the pressure. It's letting
silence do its work, letting discomforts speak, letting them arrive
at their own clarity, not the one that we hand them.
That's really powerful, and again that's a gift. With that
in mind, let's sow down and just sit with this
(25:24):
week's mantra. We're going to do our journal prompts. Now.
Remember these journal prompts. They're just here to help you
check in with where you are, what's coming up with
this mantra might be guiding you. There are no wrong
or right answers. And like I say every single week,
if journaling isn't your thing, I know for some people
it doesn't really resonate with them. If you just don't
have your journal nearby, that is totally okay. You can
(25:46):
always pause this episode between questions just to take a
quiet moment to reflect, or just save these prompts for later.
Typically I share three questions a week, but this mantra
felt very very important. So I actually have four Let's
get into them first. When do you tend to take
(26:06):
on emotional responsibility that isn't yours? And what do you
fear might happen if you stop? Next? What childhood or
early life dynamics shaped your instinct to manage other people's emotions?
Can you trace this urge back to perhaps an emotional
(26:27):
origin in your past? Now? Do you ever confuse maybe
keeping the peace with being at peace? What is the
difference between keeping the peace and being at peace for you?
And finally, when you over explain when you apologize unnecessarily
or downplay your needs, who are you protecting and why?
(26:53):
Now that you have made the space to reflect, let's
give your mind a moment to rest. In just a second,
you hear a music track. I just encourage you to
take this opportunity to process this week's reflections in whatever
ways feel right to you. No pressure, no expectations from me.
And if this isn't something that you connect with, that's
(27:14):
totally okay. Just give ahead about thirty seconds and we
will be back. But as you settle in, please keep
our mantra in mind with you today. I am not
here to manage other people's emotions as the music plays,
just let this mancho shape your thoughts. Take the time
to just connect with whatever it is bringing up for
you in this moment. Beautiful, Now that you've had that
(28:05):
very nice, special moment, just to reset and to ground yourself,
let's take that energy. Let's bring it into action with
of course, our weekly challenge. I'd love to hear how
this goes for you, so if you want to reach
out to me on Instagram at Mantra open Mind, please
share any follow ups, whether this helped you in any way,
(28:30):
what you learned, and also any questions or dine lemmas
you might have relating to this episode or any other
for our special bonus episodes, which are available exclusively on
Open Mind Plus. Okay, are you ready for this week's challenge?
This week's challenge is the Unfiltered No Challenge. I want
you to say no to something this week without over explaining,
(28:54):
without stoppening, without trying to manage or overthink how someone
else might take it. Just a clear, respectful no and
then pause, then move on. It's going to feel uncomfortable.
Just notice why you're feeling that in your body, and
notice when you find resolution from it because this emotion
will pass. You can't live with discomfort for very long.
(29:18):
It's not how your body is wired. So don't fear
an emotion that really isn't going to be there for
all too long. Good luck with your challenge. Let me
know how it goes. I'm also going to do it,
and I'll let you guys know how it goes for
me as well. All right, as we wrap up this
week's episode, I feel like it was a big one.
(29:40):
I just want to share a few final thoughts about
this mantra. I am not here to manage other people's emotions.
My final thought is this, when we try to manage
other people's emotions, but we are self abandoning and we
are basically saying your emotional state and your emotional reactions
mean more than my own. Because when you try and
help that person hold the support them, often you're doing
(30:02):
so and you're creating your own discomfort, and you're creating
a situation that you're not enjoying and you don't feel
good about it. Why are their emotions any more important
than yours? How come you are fully responsible for your
emotions that you can't recognize that other people can be
fully responsible for theirs as well. This is not about
(30:23):
ignoring people, neglecting people, not offering a helping hand when
you see them struggling. It's about this not being the
status quo for you, This not being the only way
you can help someone. If you take one thing away
from this episode, let it be this. You are not
here to regulate the emotional weather around you. You are
(30:44):
here to live in alignment with your values, your truth,
your peace. That's going to make you a better friend,
It's going to make your relationship stronger. I promise you
that letting go of the need to manage other people's
emotions it's not selfish. It's actually very help for them
as well, to learn and to feel their own personal
sense of emotional autonomy and personal responsibility. This week and beyond,
(31:10):
celebrate that return, Honor that return, and trust that when
you do, what's real is going to remain and you're
going to be okay.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Thank you for joining Manchra, an exclusive Open Mind original
powered by Pave Studios. At open Mind, we value your support,
so share your thoughts on social media and remember to rate, review,
and follow Mantra to help others discover the show for
ad free listening and early access to Mantra with me
jemis Beg. We invite you to subscribe to open Mind
(31:41):
Plus on Apple Podcasts. I will share another insightful and
introspective Mantra with you next Monday. Until then, keep showing
up for yourself and your journey. I'm Jemas Beg, See
you next week.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Mantra is hosted by me Jemis Beg is an Open
Mind original power by pay Studios. This episode was brought
to life by the incredible Mantra team Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro,
Stacy Warrenker, Sarah Kemp, and paul Leberskin. Thank you for listening.
To catch more episodes of Mantra, make sure to follow
(32:17):
Mantra wherever you get your podcasts. There is also a
link in today's show notes. Talk Soon,
Host
Jemma Sbeghen
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