Breaking the Stigma w/Mayim Bialik and Jonathan Cohen

This week, Scott is joined by the multitalented Mayim Bialik and Jonathan Cohen. You might know Mayim as the star of Blossom and The Big Bang Theory, or as the former host of Jeopardy!, but she’s also a neuroscientist with a PhD from UCLA and the creator of the popular mental health podcast Mayim Bialik’s Breakdown.

Jonathan Cohen, her co-host and co-creator, is a writer, poet, and futurist with a passion for storytelling, technology, and mindfulness. Together, they share a deep commitment to shifting the conversation around mental health and emotional well-being.

The three explore their shared journey, the power of authentic storytelling, and their mission to break down the stigma surrounding mental health. This conversation dives into everything from neuroscience to pop culture, offering a fresh perspective on what it means to thrive in today’s world.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
But honestly, like you know, when Jonathan and I started
this podcast and he wanted to talk about energy and
all this stuff I did, I turned my nose up
at it. I was like, that's not what I'm trained
to do. I'm a scientist. I don't want to be
like spouting ridiculous theories and that's crazy. But you know,
a combination of sort of personal exploration and kind of

(00:22):
variety of interesting medical things happened that in many cases,
Western science was not able to provide support for or
an understanding and started literally on a whim exploring some
more alternative methods, which honestly are not so alternative anymore.
But you know, when I first started dipping a toe
into this and it sort of made me think, gosh,

(00:45):
there is more than what Western medicine can offer. And
in the same way, there is more than what Western
philosophy and Western rationalism can offer when we're understanding larger
components of our functioning, as you know, human beings, not
human doings.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
Hello and welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we explore
the depths of human potential today. It's great to have
Maam Biolic and Jonathan Cohen on the show. Miam is
best known for her lead role as Blossom in the
early nineteen nineties NBC television sitcom Blossom. She's also well
known for playing Amy Farroh Follower in the critically acclaimed
CBS comedy The Big Bang Theory. She also served as

(01:28):
host of Jeopardy for two seasons. Bialla holds a BS
and PhD in neuroscience from UCLA and hosts a popular
mental health podcast, miam Biollics Breakdown. Today, we also have
Jonathan Cohen on the show. Jonathan is co creator and
executive producer of Maambiolics Breakdown, as well as a writer, poet, father,

(01:49):
and futurist who imagines and designs new applications of technology.
With over two decades of training in mindfulness and healing,
Cohen seeks to find ways to fuse storytelling and some
Mattics experience. Cohen and Bollock met ten years ago at
a toddler birthday party and began a connection fueled by
shifting the collective understanding of mental health and emotional well being.

(02:10):
It is my delight and pleasure to shine a spotlight
on both of them today as we discussed lots of
areas of mutual interest, so that further ado, I bring
you Maam Biollock and Jonathan Cohen. Is so great to
have you on the Psychology Podcast.

Speaker 3 (02:26):
Thank you, nice to be here, Thank you.

Speaker 4 (02:28):
For having us.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, in some ways, this we can do this as
just a continuation of a conversation we've already begun. I
was recently.

Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yes, we had you on Miam Bioleck's breakdown, and so
excited to get to talk to you more.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yes, yes, I'm so excited. Where to begin? Where to begin?
First of all, how do you two know each other?
Where did that come from?

Speaker 1 (02:58):
So Jonathan and I met. We have children who are
the same age, and we had mutual friends and when
our kids were toddlers, we literally were introduced kind of socially.
Jonathan had gone to graduate school at the American Film
Institute and he and I sort of connected around that,
and then we sort of lost touch. This was in

(03:19):
the days before cell phones were really an active part
of lives. So he went back to Toronto and then
we reconnected. We had both been divorced and our kids
were older, and we started this podcast right around gosh,
the start of the pandemic. And yeah, Jonathan is in
many ways, the business and kind of creative innovative side

(03:41):
of Miami Bi Alex breakdown and I read the books
and do their research and show up and we do
our best together in this podcast.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
What do you try to do with the podcast? What's
like the main mission?

Speaker 4 (03:57):
I think it's changed right.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
Then, Yeah, I mean, I think when we started, a
lot of people were not talking about mental health mental wellness.
It was still sort of a dirty word, you know,
to sort of say like I go to therapy, or
it's an integral part of my life, or I have
a variety of symptoms that tend to group under this

(04:19):
DSM diagnosis. It was still really kind of like whispered
in many cases. And at the beginning of a global pandemic,
we just we realized how many people were lacking basic
information about what anxiety looks like, what anticipatory anxiety is like,
how that would affect us.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
So that's sort of where we started.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
But you know, as Jonathan can talk about, we sort
of saw an evolution, you know, in how we talk
to people, and some of the themes that started being
highlighted no matter what we were talking about, has in
many ways become more of the thrust of our podcast.

Speaker 3 (04:53):
Now, Jonathan, you can speak to that if you want.

Speaker 4 (04:57):
Yeah, I mean, it feels like there was something that
we were connected by before we started the podcast. There
was a bit of a mysticism, there was a synchronicity
to how we reconnected. We tell the story actually involves
Michael Singer and Peter Levine in different ways, and through

(05:21):
the course of both of our lives and through all
the experts we've spoken to, we've realized that well being,
however that is defined, has a spiritual component to it.
There is a connection to something greater than ourselves. That
is through all the great teachers and it. More and
more science is catching up to trying to quantify and

(05:42):
explain why it is that having that connection, that sense
of wonder awe, a sense of being connected to something
greater than yourself, has physiological benefits, and so more and
more of the podcast is looking at that intersection and
trying to make sense of the things that are not
immediately under stood by quantifiable science.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
Well, I think this is a topic all of us
bond over, and I felt like there was definitely overflow
from our conversation on this topic that we could talk
about well we should be made we should make it
very cleer. For I assume everyone knows this, But Miam,
you have a PhD in neuroscience. Isn't that correct? Correct?

Speaker 3 (06:22):
Yep? I trained.

Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
I was on a TV show, Blossom, from the time
I was fourteen to nineteen. Then I effectively left the industry.
I did five years undergrad in neuroscience and Hebrew and
Jewish studies at UCLA. Then I continued to the doctoral program.
I studied psycho neeuroendochronology in particular obsessive compulsive disorder and
the hormones oxytocin and maasappress. And I worked in a

(06:47):
population of proderually syndrome, which is a genetic syndrome of
mental retardation. And so that is my training. I'm trained
as a science communicator. I had my first son in
grad school, and I took my doctoralhood pregnant with my
second son, and then I designed a neuroscience curriculum for
junior high and high school students here in the homeschool
community in Los Angeles. I did not do a post doc,

(07:09):
which already sort of puts me on the outskirts of academia,
and then I ended up you know, working on the
Big Bang theory while I was still teaching for part
of that and was on the Big Bank theory for
nine years.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
And yeah, why did you do the Big Bang theory?
And was there a point in your life where you
were thinking, oh, I want to be a professor, I
want to be a neuroscience researcher. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah, when I you know, I fell in love with
science as a high school student. I had an incredible tutor.
It was my first kind of one on one tutoring experience,
especially with a female mentor. And what I discovered is
that while I didn't learn as easily as a lot
of the kids who were natural math and science students,
I did have the brain capacity and the organization to

(07:58):
be able to study science. So, yeah, I want to
be a research professor. I wanted to study psychiatry. I
actually wanted to go to med school because that was
the kind of only way people were talking about mental
health back in the nineties, was like, go be a
psychiatrist so you can deal with, you know, people's mental
health status. It's kind of laughable now because we know
there's so many other paths, and there are many more

(08:20):
paths that have opened up, but I did not have
the grades to go to med school. I just could
not get an a inorganic chemistry and ended up doing
a doctoral program.

Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yeah, okaym was the killer.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
So yeah, I was planning on being a research professor,
but after having my first son, I realized that I
felt it was much more my calling to be home
with my kids, especially with my training in neuroscience and
you know, embryonic development and things like that. It's not
the choice for everyone, it was the choice for me.

(08:51):
So that automatically limits your capability as a professor in
terms of doing a post doc or you know, going
on to do further research. And we were actually connected
by Sam Harris, who was a colleague of mine. We
were in the same neuroscience class for our doctoral program. Yeah,
so that's how I know Sam. I mean, I also

(09:11):
know Sam's parents because I worked on a TV show
that his stepfather produced for my whole childhood. But anyway
I did, I thought being a teacher was for me.
The reason that I started auditioning again was I was
running out of health insurance and I had a toddler
and I had an infant, and I had no health
insurance and I figured if I can just get a

(09:31):
few jobs, I'll get some insurance back to be able
to take care of my kids. I had never seen
the Big Bang theory. I did not know that I
was auditioning to be on you know what was eventually
the most popular comedy in America.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
You didn't know, You didn't You didn't know that was
going to blow up like it did.

Speaker 3 (09:50):
Yeah, No, I mean I was.

Speaker 1 (09:52):
I joined in the end of the third season, so
it was already obviously kind of you know, a lot
of fans loved it.

Speaker 3 (09:58):
It was a very popular show. Wasn't a TV watcher?

Speaker 1 (10:01):
Still am not, But yeah, I had no idea that
trying to get a job here or there to try
and pay for health insurance would you know, turn into
being made a regular the following season.

Speaker 3 (10:11):
And you know, then that was sort of the trajectory
of my life.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
And you know, my kids kind of grew up with
me working on a sitcom in those days, and they're
now sixteen and nineteen.

Speaker 2 (10:21):
It must have been exciting, exciting times.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
It was very exciting. I mean, playing a neurobiologist was
really fun. It was fun to put a female face
on you know, science, and also Melissa Rousch, who played
Bernadette on The Big Bang Theory, played a microbiologist, so
I wasn't the only female scientist. But obviously being paired
with you know, Jim Parsons, you know, is really really
a powerful, you know sort of figure in terms of well,

(10:45):
in terms of physics, in terms of popular science. It
was very special also to play the girlfriend of a
character who you know, many people viewed as androgynists and
who shouldn't have relationships. And there was a lot of
interesting conversations about the spectrum back then, and we never
laid our characters, and you know, that was really important,
especially to Bill Prady who co created The Big Bang Theory,

(11:07):
as he talked about, you know, the various diagnoses that
people would give those characters. But it was very exciting
to be part of that. It was also very exciting,
you know, to be able to still be with my
kids to a large extent. The sitcom schedules very friendly,
and obviously parenting was very important to me.

Speaker 3 (11:24):
It, you know, it was the decision I didn't do
a post.

Speaker 2 (11:26):
Doc, so absolutely. You mentioned you were on a show
that was produced by Sam Harris's father.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
No, so I was on Blossom Blossom was a production
of with Thomas Harris.

Speaker 3 (11:40):
Yeah. So Blossom was produced by.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
What a small freaking Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah, so Sam, you know when I was on Blossom,
Sam's stepfather Paul Witt, who passed away a few years ago. Yeah,
Paul Whitt was my boss, and Sam was I think
in his twenties and finding himself in India at that
time time. But when we connected in grad school, He's like, yeah,
I think you know my mom, And indeed I had

(12:06):
done some episodes of some shows that his mom had
produced as well.

Speaker 3 (12:10):
So yeah, kind of a strange small world.

Speaker 2 (12:13):
So I'm going to put in my fan boy hat
for just a moment. I promised just a moment. But
as I was researching you, I realized that you were
on so much of my favorite childhood shows. So you
were on the Facts of Life, you were on The
Guy Ever you've been on The Guy, You've been on
you were on a Michael Jackson.

Speaker 3 (12:32):
Video, Liberia Yes, Liberian Girl.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, do you do you ever
just reflect on your life so far and how their
eyed and dynamic it's been.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
I guess yeah, I mean I've definitely had a lot
of experiences, a lot of different experiences.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
You know, I I.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
Really enjoyed my time in academia and you know, kind
of missed those days in particular. You know, I think
that's sort of for a lot of people. We find,
oh that's where we're comfortable is talking with other people
intellectually and you know, connecting about that kind of level
of meaningful things. So, yeah, there's been many aspects to

(13:19):
my life, and I think, you know, being a parent
and also making a decision to you know, sort of
be home and all all that that entailed. It's also
a huge part of my identity. But yeah, I guess
I've lived a lot of lives just in this one.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
You sure have. And then Jeopardy. I mean, I'm such
a fan of Jeopardy. Yeah, what was that like? You
were both a host and a participant, right.

Speaker 3 (13:43):
No, so I was.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
I was brought on after Alex Trebek passed away. I
was brought on as a guest a guest host, and
and then ended up you know, being part of a
very public conversation and was chosen as the host. I
was at that time working on a series which ended
up going three years after but The Big Bang Theory

(14:06):
and very famously would not cross the picket line in
the last writers strike, and in that time Ken Jennings
was selected as host. So you know, it was a
It was an incredible experience and I think one of
my most you know, fun and gratifying work opportunities because
it combined all of the things about me that are
geeky and nerdy with you know, the ability to try

(14:28):
and present that information and highlight incredible individuals, you know,
with with unbelievable knowledge you know of subjects that many
of us could not hope to master.

Speaker 3 (14:38):
One category of.

Speaker 2 (14:42):
I thought, for some reason, there was one episode where
you actually were a contestant.

Speaker 3 (14:48):
No, we did.

Speaker 1 (14:48):
I think an episode of Blossom had me as a
contestant on Jeopardy, Like we did a Blossom episode. I
think it was yeah, so yeah, that was from that
was like a dream sequence in a Blossom episode.

Speaker 3 (15:00):
But no, I actually don't excel. I don't excel at Jeopardy.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
People are like, oh, you're so smart, and like it's
not about that, And there's people far far smarter than I.
And you know, the kind of recall and you know,
as as you can probably speak to the kind of
information recall and storage of information that that individuals who
excel on Jeopardy have.

Speaker 3 (15:22):
That's that's not something that I have.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
I know, you know a lot of specific things about
some specific categories. I do really well, and like anything
relating to Hebrew language, you know, nearest languages and cultures,
things like that, all things Middle East historical and liturgical.
But yeah, my neuroscience knowledge is also you know, it's

(15:45):
it's pretty narrow. So I'm not really like a oh
I do amazing on Jeopardy kind of person.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
Okay, fair enough. Yeah, you said you're really interested in
Jewish studies, right, are you related to I am?

Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yes, I'm not going to be like, yeah, on my
dad's side, he was a very famous poet. Many people
call him the you know, the Shakespeare of Israel or
the poet Lauriate of Israel. There's a Bolick Street in
you know, most every major city in Israel. So yeah,
I grew up with that as sort of part of
I guess, you know, our heritage.

Speaker 2 (16:19):
That's so that's pretty cool, pretty cool Jeopardy trivia. Now,
so both of you, Jonathan, I would problems to bring
you back in here, buddy, but both of you really
do bond over the so both of you are interested
in science, and you really can get into the nerdiness

(16:40):
with me, but you're also into what perhaps science could
never prove or could never show evidence for. And I
was wondering how you reconcile your interest in both of
those things, because you don't often see I mean, I
am like that too, but you don't often see many
people like us who who have a real passion for
both these things.

Speaker 3 (17:02):
Yeah, I mean I can speak to that first and
then hands it over to Jonathan.

Speaker 1 (17:05):
I mean, I'm a person of faith, you know, so
that already is kind of considered curious that I'm a
scientist who's also a person of faith. And you know,
my understanding of divine things and things outside of our
realm are not significantly different from any intellectual conversation or scientific,
you know, conversation about the existence of something greater than ourselves.

(17:28):
I always joke that my kids say I'm cheating and
I don't really believe in God, because the God that
I believe in is the God of gravity and nature
and awe and wonder and you know, all of the
laws that govern the material world that we can experience
with a sprinkling of you know, an understanding that not
everything that we can feel is quantifiable. Jonathan is much

(17:52):
more on the healer side of things. I'm much more
on the science side of things.

Speaker 3 (17:56):
But yeah, I can let Jonathan speak to sort of
where those intersect for us.

Speaker 4 (18:01):
I've always felt that the pure materialists are missing something crucial.
But I have always been seeking the people who understand
heart science to bridge that gap, because I believe that
the heart scientists can explain it. Just most of them don't,
or aren't curious, or are closed off in a way

(18:23):
that they haven't had the experiences that open their minds
and have shown them firsthand that there is more to
life than what can easily be explained. And so I'm
just fascinated by the people who want to explore the
heart problem of consciousness, or who are interested in extra
sensory abilities, or who don't dismiss the somewhat supernatural by

(18:50):
you know, as we had with jeffre Kreipel when we
recently spoke to him, He's like, well, if you take
everything off the table that you can't explain and say
that you can explain everything on the table, you can
only do that because you've a limited needed a lot
of potentially curious and mysterious and aspects of our world
that require deeper evaluation with a curious approach.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
But honestly, like, you know, when Jonathan and I started
this podcast and he wanted to talk about energy and
all this stuff I did, I turned my nose up
at it. I was like, that's not what I'm trained
to do. I'm a scientist. I don't want to be
like spouting ridiculous theories and that's crazy. But you know,
a combination of sort of personal exploration and kind of

(19:38):
variety of interesting medical things happened that in many cases,
Western science was not able to provide support for or
an understanding and started literally on a whim exploring some
more alternative methods, which honestly are not so alternative anymore.
But you know, when I first started dipping a toe

(19:59):
into this and it sort of made me think, gosh,
there is more than what Western medicine can offer. And
in the same way, there is more than what Western
philosophy and Western rationalism can offer when we're understanding larger
components of our functioning as you know, human beings, not
human doings.

Speaker 4 (20:20):
We've also spoken to a large number of you know,
very reputable scientists mds and neuroscientists and neurobiologists from Harvard
and all the large schools. So and they're pushing the
conversation to say, wait a second, we can use the
word energy and not have it be so woo like

(20:41):
the bodies and energetic system our selves produce energy. So like,
let's redefine some of these terminologies to be more grounded
and clear in terms of what we are actually using
them for. And you know, so I don't think that
they're the outliers in terms of or I don't think
they should be discredited. That these are reputable people from
recutal institutions. So what's happening is that the language and

(21:03):
the conversation is sort of merging from the people who
are either once seen as only as the ogi's or
the people who are the hippies and only outside of society,
and you know, would never go to a doctor. To
the Western medical system, while it has its incentives to
push pharmaceutical drugs and they can be helpful to reduce
symptoms and suppress issues that are going on, more and

(21:26):
more medicine and popular conversation is talking about, well, how
do you build the system to run effectively. And how
do our minds and our relationship to our emotions and
to the things that we sense, how do those also
impact our physiology our physiology as well.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
Hil, I want to take a moment to make a
few important announcements that I'm really excited about. As you
all know, I'm committed to helping people self actualize. In
the service of that, I just had a new book
comount called Rise Above. Overcome a victim mindset, empower yourself
and realize your full potential. In this book, I offer
a science backed toolkit to help you overcome your living

(22:11):
beliefs and take control of your life. Are you tired
of feeling helpless? This book will offer you hope, not
by identifying with the worst things that have happened to you,
but by empowering you to tap into the best that
is within you. Rise Above is available wherever you get
your books. Are you a personal coach looking to take
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(22:34):
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about the course and register by going to Center for

(22:54):
Human Potential dot com slash SAC. That's Center for Human
Potential dot com slash s a C. Okay, now back
to the show. Yeah, these are very obviously, very important questions.
You you you wrote a book and attachment parenting or
you co wrote it, right, I'm not making that up.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
No, I wrote it.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
Yeah, you wrote it, Okay, excellent, called Beyond the Sling.
So what what are some of the main principles in there? Like?
What are like? What?

Speaker 3 (23:26):
What?

Speaker 2 (23:26):
Why did you write that book?

Speaker 3 (23:28):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (23:29):
I should mention, you know, and my my publisher would
want me to. You know, I wrote I wrote two
books on puberty that were best sellers. Beyond the Sling
was not a best seller, so I'm supposed to mention.
Also I wrote two books on puberty, one design for girls,
one designed for boys. In terms of the kind of
endocrine you know, physiological and also psychological implications of puberty,

(23:51):
and those are called girling up and buoying up. But
I wrote Beyond the Sling after my second son was born.
You know, at that time I was they called us
mommy bloggers. You know, there was this new thing called
the Internet where people who were writers, and I was
a writer, could share intimate and important things about their
life journey. I wrote for a Jewish parenting website called

(24:14):
Feller dot com, and people really resonated with hearing sort
of a lot of the perspectives what I specialized in,
which I think in some ways is still what I
specialize in now with our podcast. Apparently I specialize in
taking things that people think are stupid or don't have
a basis, and I explain the significance of them, either

(24:34):
personally or scientifically. And so with Beyond the Sling, I
took the principles of attached from parenting, and I explained
the science behind why birth matters, why breastfeeding matters, why
bonding matters, why gentle discipline matters, as opposed to using
you know, harsh punishment, harsh punishment and and and you know,

(24:57):
disciplinary measures that can and you know kind of I
guess erode certain aspects of our connection with our children.
And you know, at the time, people thought it was
crazy to advocate for breastfeeding. They thought it was nuts
that there was any value to a natural birth, or
that you would insinuate that there might actually be hormones,
for example, that are significant that you know, flow from

(25:21):
the mother's body to the babies during birth.

Speaker 3 (25:23):
Things like that.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
I think it was also a time when a lot
of people were concerned that bringing up anything that worked
for you was an attack on people who did it differently.
Meaning I never said that there are not reasons that
people don't breastfeed, or that people have to breastfeed, or
that people have to have natural birth.

Speaker 3 (25:40):
You know, I understand that's not for everyone.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
Sea sections can be life saving, but you know, one
of the things I talked about in the book was
a sea section rate of you know, thirty percent, which
is about what the US hovers at. You know, at
that point, the side effects of those surgeries are more
are are more dangerous than than not having c sections
in certain cases. So anyway, I wrote that book kind

(26:05):
of to explain what I saw as the neuroscientific understanding
of just the normal human biological process of parenting. And
I also I am elactation educator, counselor so I did
speak from that perspective as well. But it's kind of
interesting because you know, a lot of those principles have
worked their way also into our podcast, and the climate

(26:26):
is very different now. People are out of that sort
of hyper defensive mode of like I'll have a C
section and use a bottle iff I want to And
it's no difference. We're back to having conversations about, gosh,
what does it mean when we talk about the implications
of the choices we make, not just with birth or
breastfeeding or anything like that, but with how we kind
of conduct ourselves in general.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
That's wonderful. And then in terms of what you've found
to be the best disciplinary method, can you just elaborate
that a little bit, like because you know the recent shows,
you know, like you know, gentle but firm, you know.

Speaker 1 (27:04):
But oh yeah, yeah, we're yeah, And I talk about
that in the book, and it's actually something that does
come up on our podcast a lot. We do talk
about parenting and sort of what are the ways that
discipline and parenting impact the brain and developing psyche of
a child. Yeah, we're pretty we're pretty clear on that.
I raised children with a lot of discipline, probably more

(27:25):
discipline than I think a lot of people associate with
attachment parenting per se. But yeah, one of the things
that comes up a lot, and came up in our
Michael Singer, it comes up in our David Rico episode.

Speaker 3 (27:39):
It never makes.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
Sense to a child to be hit by the people
that are supposed to love that child. And this is
something that you know, we don't really see as we
don't really see as controversial. People are allowed to parent
however they want, but yeah, harsh discipline and yeah, not
seeing all parts of your child can be very damaging.

(28:02):
And we've spoken to a lot of We've spoken to
a lot of child specialists, and we sort of talk about,
you know, what does it mean to raise a child?

Speaker 3 (28:09):
What does it mean to give them an environment where
they can flourish spiritually, you know, psychologically, And so yeah,
that's one of the things we've definitely tackled.

Speaker 2 (28:20):
Well, it's a really important topic.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
And I should add in terms of you know, kind
of our conversation and the notion of what science can calibrate.
I can't believe that we needed to wait for longitudinal
research to show that children are who are hit and
who are subjected to harsh discipline have more challenging outcome.
Statistically speaking, it kind of astounded me that we had

(28:45):
to wait for the longitudinal data on that one. And
there's a lot of you know, complaints and criticism, criticism
that people have about people who don't hit their children.
But yeah, generally speaking, I have found that anytime that
I have felt a need to be harsh, to yell
at my child, to you know, feel a desire to
act out at my child, it has one hundred percent

(29:09):
of the time been that I don't have the resources,
the support, or the rest that I need, or the
kind of education to understand how to deal with children.
It is never that children are trying anything but to
have their needs met. But they will get louder if
their needs are not met, and they will get more persistent.

Speaker 2 (29:26):
For sure, what has been your experience?

Speaker 4 (29:30):
Mim and I have a similar philosophy, had a similar
philosophy when they were young. We actually met through our children,
and I would say that there's a phrase that I've heard.
I don't know where it comes from, but like, are
you wiring them for connection? I don't believe personally, and

(29:51):
this is not you know, I'm not in the data,
But I don't believe personally that children have the ability
to self regulate on their own. They coregulate with their
adult counterparts. So sending them, for example, banishing them to
their room as punishment versus Okay, we're going to have
whatever this timeout is, but still being establishing that connection

(30:14):
where you can still be in the same room, but
we're going to change the activity. I think there's a
huge misnomer between attachment and having no boundaries and letting
them do whatever they want. It's not that you can
never set boundaries that you should. You should let them
know what is acceptable, what isn't when behavior needs to
change when lines are crossed, but doing it in a

(30:35):
way that is impunitive, doing it in a way where
you're not removing the connection, and actually sometimes it's more connection,
you know, especially during the Tamper tantrum years. And I'm
not even talking about four, which is sometimes really hard
because they get their own opinions and drives and motivation.
But like in the ten and eleven and twelve, when

(30:57):
sometimes there's a lot of energy and a lot of emotion.
I remember even eight had a lot of that. Sometimes
it was literally I'm just gonna sit on the side
of your bed and you don't want me here, but
I'm not going to walk away from you, even though
I would rather go cool off and like look at
my phone or do something other than be around you
because the tension is so high. But instead, I'm gonna

(31:17):
allow you to freak out and know that you can
throw appropriate things, whether it's stuffed animals or pillows or
soft stuff, you can have an appropriate response that I'm
not going to squash, and you're also not going to
lose connection to me for having those emotions.

Speaker 2 (31:36):
Beautiful, you guys sound like great parents.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
I'm not so good.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
You're trying. Can we say that at least let's say
you're trying?

Speaker 3 (31:48):
Oh yeah, No, I definitely I do. I definitely I
do my best.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
But I think, yeah, my goal is to have my
children actively choose to hang out with me when they
don't have to.

Speaker 3 (31:59):
That's, to me, is the measure how I'm doing.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
How would you describe like, if you had to describe
your personality, how would you describe it?

Speaker 3 (32:08):
You're a little sarcastic, I'm self deprecating. I think that's
uh think, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:16):
I'm I'm pretty Uh. I don't know, I mean, Jonathan
probably has. It would kind of be a fun exercise
to have Jonathan describe my personality and me describe his.
You know, I'm very I'm very routinized, you know. I
I like to say, you know when people are like, oh,

(32:36):
I'm really flexible and like I like to work with
other people and get new ideas and find new ways.

Speaker 3 (32:40):
To do things. That is not my style.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
I am very rigid. But in many ways it can work,
you know, in many ways it can work to to
my favorite Yeah, I'm a meticulous person. I'm funny, Like
I think I'm a funny person. I like to see
the funny in things.

Speaker 4 (32:59):
And yeah, Scott, when you came on our podcast right
at the beginning, you said that you're just a big child,
and there's a childlike aspect of mine. Also, where if
you ever watch her watching NCAA basketball, especially like men's
final four, she's slamming the table. She's like has the

(33:23):
enthusiasm that only mostly you only see in very young children.
And so she'll have those ups that are really astounding
and make her have the joy for the world that
is quite profound. And then also she'll have the ninety
year old grandma. We're doing this now, so she has
both sides of those coins. But no, I would say

(33:44):
she's philosophical and curious in many intellectually curious. She does
like her routine, but when she's encouraged or nudged out
of it, she offered protests. But then we'll get excited
about it and then really dive in and then things
quite particulously cool.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah. Whenever I have like a celebrity on my podcast,
or like someone who's an actor actress, I always ask
them who are you? They're really you because a lot
of people don't really get a chance to know you know,
your characters that you've played. Sure, yeah something.

Speaker 1 (34:23):
Yeah, I mean that's part of why that's also part
of why I think, you know, there's interest in the
podcast that we do is because I do choose to
speak very openly and very frankly about things that you know, yes,
a lot of celebrities are now talking about, but you know,
four or five years ago, when we first started this,
it was you know, kind of a little bit of

(34:45):
a risky decision to say, you know, I have OCD
like I didn't.

Speaker 3 (34:51):
I didn't, you know, we didn't call it that when
I was a kid.

Speaker 1 (34:53):
I just these are the things about me, or I
have anxiety or I had you know, I've experience and
debilitating panic attacks, like I struggle with depression. You know,
these are just things that many many people experience and
kind of you know, I think some of that vulnerability
was part of what we tried to bring as novel,

(35:15):
you know, to our podcast. And you know, the other
thing is where I'm the only non m D you know,
who hosts a podcast for us that hovers where it
does in Apple podcasts. You know, usually the things that
we talk about are the you know, the domain of
mds and also of men. So that's the other thing is,

(35:36):
you know, as a female in the science space and
as a female kind of public person in the science space,
it's also an opportunity to talk about some of the
unique challenges that women have, both for women to hear
about and also for men to hear about. So yeah,
some of that vulnerability is really built into the podcast.
And I'll be honest, like, I I have social media.

(35:57):
I see what it's like when you know, like an
attractive celebrities, Like I was depressed, but then I went
on this medication and everything's amazing.

Speaker 3 (36:05):
Now in my life is fantastic. That's not the story
that we tell.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
I tell the story that I think a lot of
people experience, which is I grew up in a really
complicated home. I grew up in the family disease of alcoholism,
and that means that there's a lot of coping mechanisms
that the entire family has to undergo.

Speaker 3 (36:22):
In order to manage.

Speaker 1 (36:24):
And what happens is you get these really complicated personalities
that sometimes have challenges with things, and there's a lot
of highs and there's a lot of lows. That's my
human experience. Whether you know I've been nominated for Emmys
or not.

Speaker 2 (36:38):
I love that. And I actually I didn't know you
had OCD, so I just learned that just now.

Speaker 3 (36:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:44):
I mean, I like to point out, like for many
of us, it's just it was just how I operated.
I had a very clever psychiatrist when I was in college,
say do you have a favorite number?

Speaker 3 (36:54):
And I was like don't we all?

Speaker 1 (36:56):
And he's like no, And I said, well, I have
seven favorite numbers. Would you like to me to explain
and have a lot about counting a lot about numbers,
which I think you can probably relate to. And yeah,
there's many different features of OCD. I ended up studying
OCD as my thesis, so yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:16):
Yes, I can definitely relate. I can definitely. I have
a question, did you ever have any panic attacks on
the set of Big Bang Theory? And I asked this
because I think you are very inspirational, and especially the
more that you talk about your own vulnerability, the more
inspirational You've just even be come more you've just become.

Speaker 3 (37:35):
That's very sweet.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
Yeah, because a lot of people may see some of
these things as debilitating, and yet you are, You've been,
You've been so successful, So I'm just wondering.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
Yeah, no, for me, panic you know, my panic disorder
was in my late teens and into my twenties, so
a different phase of life.

Speaker 3 (37:56):
And no, I think on Big Bang Theory, you know,
it was a time.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
In my life where I ended up. You know, in
that time, I got divorced, like my father died. You know,
a lot of other things happen when you work with
people for a decade. We all had different things happen.
But what I actually started experiencing during Big Bang Theory
was I began perimenopause during Big Bang theory, and I
remember the exact taping when I had my first hot

(38:22):
flash and I couldn't understand what was going on, and
I thought, gosh, Amy Farafowler does wear a lot of layers.
I'm really really hot tonight, like something's wrong. And I
was standing in my dressing room under the air conditioner
and my hair, my hair is naturally wavy, and they
straightened it for Amy Farrifowler, and my hair started curling underneath,
like it was like that hot in my head anyway,

(38:45):
So that's kind of a fun thing to remember that
I began the process of erymenopause on the side of
Big Bang theory.

Speaker 2 (38:52):
So that's so interesting. Wow, So how did you how
did you overcome your your panic at like it sounds
like that was when you were younger.

Speaker 1 (39:02):
But yeah, well, you know, I think the kind of
the kind of sad story is that, you know, if
you presented in the late eighties early nineties to a
doctor with any sort of mood disorder, the first thing
they did, if you were female was to put you
on birth control, even if you were not sexually active.

(39:25):
In many cases they felt that would help. I was
not having a hormonal problem, but I definitely had one
after starting on the pill. And for a lot of people,
birth control pills are really helpful for regulating things. But
for me that was not a solution. Back then, they
just put you on xanax. They put you on xan X.

(39:45):
I didn't even really have proper therapy until I was
in college. And yeah, I saw at that time a psychiatrist.
This is just what mental health support looked like. They
would just kind of medicate the problem and say, you're fine,
You're fine, You're fine, You're and you're fine. No one
asked me what was going on in my home. No
one asked me what I grew up with. No one

(40:06):
asked me what my relationship was like with my parents
or my brother. You know, there was a lot going on,
you know, for me. Over the course of many years
and finally getting into good psychotherapy, I started exploring some
of the mechanisms underlying why my brain tended to things
the way that it did. Panic disorders no joke, you know,

(40:29):
And that was actually one of the first things that
when Jonathan and I started our podcast, I really wanted
people to understand the difference between anxiety attacks and panic attacks,
because they're very different. They have a different mechanism and
they can look similar, but the fear of having a
panic attack leading to other panic attacks is unique to
panic disorder, and it really did. It followed me through

(40:51):
my twenties. I did learn that there were certain environments
that triggered panic, and even being around people who were
intoxicated or stoned could bring on a panic attack. For me,
there was something about control, the loss of control, or
even experiencing other people not in control. So, yeah, I'll

(41:12):
be honest, I took a lot of therapy. I'm a
huge proponent of effective psychotherapy. There have been times in
my life where I've been medicated. There have been times
in my life where I have not been medicated. I
don't get to say what works. But I think one
of the other things we've gotten to talk about on
our podcast, which I know you also are not afraid
to delve into, is you know, sort of the way

(41:33):
that we view mental health and mental health problems. There's
this sort of notion that, you know, if Big Pharma
says to take SSRIs, everyone needs to take SSRIs. And
the fact is there's a lot of different components to
how we understand our brains, how we fit what environments
will bring out the best in us, and we don't
all have to be the same. And that also goes

(41:55):
for how we treat, you know, many of the mental
health challenges many of us present with.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
So did you ever take medication for the panic attacks?

Speaker 1 (42:05):
Yeah, I mean I was on Xanax for years. That
was just sort of like that was the procedure. And then,
you know, I definitely and we've talked about this on
the podcast. You know, I've tried dozens of different medications,
tried just about every known combination that there is of,
you know, ssri atypical neuroeiptic, you know, like name it,
add a thing, do a thing. I've seen all the commercials.

(42:27):
We didn't have commercials back then. It was just a
psychiatrist saying, try this one out. And often within a
day you'd have side effects that were like I feel
like my car office side of the road. Okay, stop
that medication, let's try a new one. So I did
that dance for many years, and yeah, my life's very
different now and I have to incorporate a lot of

(42:48):
other practices, and honestly, our podcast has been really helpful
in me learning about some of the things that people
do instead of being on medication. Again, we don't make
any recommendations like go off your meds and have a
great time, but you know, we do talk about any
spiritual aspects, the role of meditation, you know, learning how

(43:09):
to calm down your sympathetic nervous system and all those
sorts of things. Those are part of you know, kind
of part of my life in a different way now.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
Yeah, it's so important. Yeah, we we we have we
have similar similar vibes on our podcast or on our
respective podcasts. That was why I'm really excited that you
guys came on to Mind today and that and that
I was on yours. There's there's a lot of you know,
I was trying to just research you as much as

(43:40):
I could, and I feel like there's conflicting there's a
lot of there's a lot of commonly searched terms questions
about you, and there's even disagreements on how your name
is pronounced. And that drove me crazy. You know, is
it mem or myam and and I.

Speaker 3 (43:57):
Just like yeah, yeah, yeah for water. So yes, I.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
Felt like I was trying to doubt my own sanity
about that because because some i'mere like it's ma'am, and
I'm like, oh, well, how do I introduce her? So
I had a panic attack over that, to be honest.
But anyway, one thing I thought was interesting is that
people keep mentioning your high IQ and you like you
were listed in like top ten celebs with the highest IQ.

(44:23):
And I find with this kind of stuff, it's not
like any of these things are verified, you know, like
you know, they say Einstein's IQ was like two hundred
or whatever, but it's not possible actually to get I
could explain the technicalities of it. You can't actually score
two hundred. So have you ever had were you? First
of all, were you in gifted education as a kid.

Speaker 1 (44:42):
Yeah, it's funny because you know, so much of my
life was determined by a test that I don't even
remember taking. What is true is that I was one
of many, many students, you know, in the region of
Los Angeles that I live in, who went to a
very fascinating school. It was the basis for Head of
the Class, which was a TV show that was on

(45:03):
about a group.

Speaker 3 (45:03):
Of gifted kids. So that was one way so.

Speaker 1 (45:05):
That no, no, that show was based on the junior
high school that I went to. So I went to
a particular junior high school for which there was an
IQ requirement that apparently I satisfied, as did all of
the other people. I like to say I was one
of the stupidest people in that entire junior high school,
because my junior high school was largely made up of
you know, kids who completed their high school math and

(45:28):
physics and all those things in the seventh grade.

Speaker 3 (45:32):
You know.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
It was a program where some of our teachers were
professors from MIT. I was learning logic and Latin in
the seventh grade. So I went to one of these
kind of programs.

Speaker 3 (45:41):
But I'm a.

Speaker 1 (45:42):
Public I'm a product of public school. I'm a product
of the public school educational system. My parents were teachers.
My parents had a combined like seventy years of teaching.
My dad was a public school teacher. My mom was
a nursery school director. I'm a second generation American kid
whose parents never owned a house. We rented. You know,
everything was all broken, the floors were always torn up.

(46:02):
We didn't have heat when I was a kid, or
air conditioning for that matter.

Speaker 3 (46:06):
So I'm just a kid.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
Who went to public school. I'm a product of the
busing program. But they took kids from poor neighborhoods in
the late seventies early eighties, and they put us on
buses to send us to fancy schools that had magnet programs.
And the idea was that every child, no matter what
their background, deserves the right to have access to an
enriched education. So I was the product of those programs.

(46:29):
And you know, I was one of these kids who
if you look at my report cards, you know I
was always talking. I had trouble not focusing on whatever
boy I had a crush on. I made a tremendous
amount of careless errors. I worked very very fast. I'd
never fit the diagnosis of like an ADHD kid, But

(46:49):
I was always rushing. There was always like a fire
under my tush.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
I don't know why.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
It's just a self generated yeah, meaning it was nothing
from the school environment that I was in.

Speaker 3 (47:00):
So I don't remember taking an IQ test. My brother
skipped a grade.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
My parents assumed that I would do the same, so
they started me in kindergarten a year early.

Speaker 3 (47:08):
So I was always really tiny. I was always the youngest.

Speaker 1 (47:12):
But yeah, I had parents also who, like I said,
they were both teachers, so they were very you know,
my mom was very into helping with all my projects,
and my dad, you know as well, did homework with me.
But I struggled a lot. And you know, I think
it's really popular for people to be like, oh, the
celebrity is so smart and blah blah blah, and and
the fact is, yes, I went to college, I went

(47:32):
to grad school, but even in grad school, I really struggled.
I was not a natural science thinker or a science student.
So you know, for me, it's very interesting that as
a celebrity, I'm sort of held up to this like
she's so smart, whereas in grad school it was kind
of like, I don't know if my mom's going to finish,
like I really she just is having trouble with data
analysis and stats right now.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
Wow. Yeah, because like on the internet, it's so specific.
It says that it's reported between one fifty three and
one sixty like a very specific band.

Speaker 3 (48:01):
No, and I don't know how any I don't know
how anyone also even like have that.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
Like I said, the junior high school that I went
to did have a minimum requirement which was around that.
But no, I've never released the results of my IQ
test and you know, for me, I think that you know,
I was a natural humanity student. I'm a very fast writer.
I'm a very fast reader. Never would it have occurred

(48:26):
to me that I could even master math or science
the way that I ended up doing it. And so,
you know, I think the brain obviously is malleable, and
so much of that was about habits. It was about
as you know, as you've written about so brilliantly, you
have to teach to where a kid is at. And
for me, I needed a one on one tutor to
show me how to organize, you know, memorizing. I do

(48:47):
have a I have a somewhat photographic memory, which does
make certain things.

Speaker 3 (48:52):
Yeah, it does make certain things easier.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
But you know, when it comes to you know, analysis,
and I never imagined I would do the highest level
of physics, biochemistry, calculus, you know, the chemistry, like the
things that were required of me in college and in
grad school. Even though I struggled, you know, I had
a deep love and understanding of the nervous system, you know,

(49:18):
which you know is the basis of how I see
the world.

Speaker 2 (49:24):
Yeah. Well you obviously, however you slice and dice it.
You're very smart, but you do. Also you do point
out I also.

Speaker 3 (49:31):
Do a lot of really stupid things. Though you'd be surprised.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
You're funny, because I was just going to say, but
don't worry, I'm going to deprecate you now, but you
did it yourself. You did it yourself. So I was
going to other deprecate and then you self deprecated. But no,
I was going to say, but you illustrate how even
gifted kids, you know, it doesn't mean that you have,
you know, a complete, like high profile on every specific ability.

(49:58):
You do. Actually often see lots of jagged profiles, as
we call them, technically amongst gifted children. So I appreciate
you speaking to that and you.

Speaker 1 (50:11):
And also I also just to speak just to speak
to that point. You know, my parents started teaching in
Harlem and the Bronx, you know, and at a time
when black students weren't even allowed into the you know,
New York public school system, and my mother, my mother
taught at a women's prison. You know, I was raised
on stories of every child deserves an education, every child

(50:34):
deserves enrichment opportunities. So I think that also, you know,
I never felt big for my breches because I was
raised to believe what I still believe is true. Every
single child, if placed in the right environment, can be
loved supported. You know, given that opportunity to shine, and
the fact that we now can talk about different kinds

(50:56):
of intelligence, which is something also Jonathan is introduced to
our podcast as a place of conversation is incredibly important.
Jonathan is a person who you know, struggled to read,
to write. You know, he was also being taught three
languages because he's Canadian and that's what they do there.
But you know, Jonathan has been one of the people
who's been very helpful in helping that become part of

(51:17):
our podcast conversation of some people are spiritually intelligent.

Speaker 3 (51:21):
What does that mean?

Speaker 1 (51:22):
What does it mean if they can't spell, but they
have an understanding of things that are beyond our understanding.
That's intelligent too, And your book really helped me see, like, gosh,
the entire system is structured around, you know, a scaffold
that in many cases is helpful, like for I don't know,
like military or you know, if you're trying to run
a government, but not necessarily if you're trying to grow

(51:42):
human beings.

Speaker 2 (51:44):
Well, that's exactly right. And I appreciate you trying to
bring Jonathan, and we don't want Jonathan to feel left
out at all here. I am. I am fascinated with
your early childhood and your you know, I still I
don't know, like why did you go into acting? Like
why bloss Like how did that come about?

Speaker 3 (52:03):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (52:04):
I liked performing in school plays, and you know, there's
a lot of reasons that. Yeah, there's a lot of
reasons that actors, you know, like and seek that kind
of approval and attention. You know, I had friends, and
I was popular, but my favorite thing was to make
a teacher like me, especially a difficult teacher. You know.
I was really am a you know, a master of reading,

(52:26):
reading the room and trying to you know, bend it
to my will.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
So I really liked school plays, you know.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
Yeah, I mean it is it's it's control, but it's
also safety. You know, for me, it wasn't from a
it wasn't from a malicious perspective.

Speaker 3 (52:42):
No.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
But but some people really like applause. You know, some
people really like to know that like they're amazing. That's
not my interest, you know, do you think I'm amazing
enough that you're happy that you know, that's kind of
like the definition of a codependent actor. But for me,
you know, for me, I thought that that meant that

(53:04):
I should like be an actor, like I'm so charismatic,
but you know, I kind of wasn't one of these
like Hollywood hammy kids. You know, I felt very awkward
at auditions, and most kids who were auditioning for things
had been acting since they were two or three, and
I was a late bloomer to start at eleven. You know,
I was literally in rooms with kids who were real

(53:24):
master manipulators of an environment.

Speaker 3 (53:26):
And you know, I would go to auditions.

Speaker 1 (53:28):
It was not uncommon for children and their parents to
say to you, you look tired. Okay, I don't know
if you're going to do well today on this audition.
You look a little tired. And that was just like,
you know, standard issue.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
So it.

Speaker 1 (53:41):
You know, I'm grateful that my parents, my mother in particular,
believed in me enough to not point out to me
that no one on television looked like I did, meaning
the notion that a large, featured, you know, very scrawny,
poor Jewish kid you know, from Hollywood should make it
in the duet. There was nothing on television to indicate

(54:03):
that my face was going to belong anywhere, and indeed
I didn't do well in commercials, like because they wanted
it was called all American if you can imagine it.
At the time, they wanted all American kids. That was
the literally in the casting description, and I was called
in if it said all ethnicities submitted, which meant yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:22):
So like I was like this like weird looking kid.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
And a year after I started acting, I got cast
to play the young Bett Middler in Beaches and that's
kind of where my life changed.

Speaker 3 (54:31):
And I was then given my own TV show after that.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
Oh yeah, I remember that. I remember Beaches. Okay, that
was you.

Speaker 3 (54:39):
I was a little redhead girl. Yeah, oh my god.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
Yeah. Yeah. What does large feature mean?

Speaker 1 (54:44):
By the way, I mean like I have an you know,
I have an Eastern European face. I have a prominent nose,
a prominent chin. Yeah, so like, you know, all American
kids they wanted like small features and like blue eyes
and blonde hair.

Speaker 3 (55:00):
And just like get it, very totally generic. Yeah, and
I looked like, you know, an Eastern European kid.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
I totally get it. Wow. Okay, well, I mean yeah,
I just think that you're you're you really are inspirational
a lot of people. And you also, I mean I've
really admired the way that you just spoke out when
the me Too movement happened in Hollywood, Like that's something
I wanted to just register. I really appreciated that, and

(55:28):
you know, just being able to kind of talk about
like you're you're a woman in that in that business,
like you have eyes and I'm sure you've noticed a
lot of patterns of behavior that that probably annoyed you
over the years, right.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
Yeah, I mean it's funny like I was on Big
Bang Theory at the time, you know that the me
Too movement happened, and yeah, I didn't. I mean, I
have a lot of I got a lot of attention,
you know at the time over a piece that I
had written for The New York Times before actually the
metoom movement happened.

Speaker 3 (56:03):
But you know, being on Big Bang Theory at.

Speaker 1 (56:06):
The time was a very interesting, you know, sense of
perspective because you know, there are so many, so many
ways that people interact when they do have familiarity, and
kind of everything comes into question when you have a
movement like that, you know, rock the industry, and I
think we're still seeing you know, the impact of that,
and obviously it's standing out as it should.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
Yeah. Well, what I really like about you is you
really your whole career, You've really leaned into what is
unique about you and without apology or shame, and I
think that is beautiful. Do you feel do you ever
feel imposter syndrome about anything about science or acting?

Speaker 3 (56:43):
Yeah? I think Jonathan can probably.

Speaker 1 (56:45):
Yeah, I think Jonathan can also probably speak to that
because it definitely plays into when he has to like
pitch things for the podcast and I always think no
one wants to talk to us.

Speaker 3 (56:55):
Arm.

Speaker 4 (56:56):
Your homework after this episode is to go back and
watch the Glenn and Door episode of Mine, the Alex Breakdown,
which is I don't know, first fifteen episodes, and that
will be your answer.

Speaker 1 (57:09):
Okay, So yes, a lot a lot of a lot
of imposter syndrome, a lot of a lot of fear.
I mean, I think, you know, in many ways, you know,
I'm trained as a scientist. And again it's like really
fun for Hollywood headlines to be like doctor miam bi Alec,
but I'm not a practicing neuroscientist. I did not do
a post doc, you know, like going back into academia

(57:31):
is not is something I knew that when I stayed
home with my you know, my kids, I knew was
an avenue that was closed to me.

Speaker 3 (57:38):
So I serve a different purpose as a scientist.

Speaker 1 (57:40):
But that sort of you know, creates imposter syndrome on
the academic side, and then on the Hollywood side, there's
always this notion of like, oh but she did this
other thing, and oh she's been nominated for five Emmys
but she's never won, and you know, she's not leading
lady looks, but like she's got her own thing. So yeah,
a lot of sort of in between this, which again
I think a lot of people can relate to, even
if it's not on you know, the kind of scale

(58:03):
or in the in the ways that I experienced it.
I think a lot of people feel a little bit stuck.

Speaker 3 (58:07):
In the middle.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
Yeah, I remember you called me. You're like, well you're
a real scientist, you said to me when I was
on your show, And that really that really actually took
me back because I was like, I don't know, I
felt like I wanted to like defend you, like I
went into like justice mode with that comment, because I
was like, you're a freaking phdner it is, so people

(58:29):
don't realize how hard I don't know if I could
do it. Well, I did do a PhD, but strike
that from the record. I did do a PhD neuro science,
but I was gonna say, I don't know if I
could do it.

Speaker 5 (58:39):
But I think people don't realize I forgot who I
was for a second there, But I people don't realize
how freaking hard it is to do a PhD in neuroscience.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
Not only how hard it is, but how much you
have to really learn the literature and what is They
don't certify you to be a PhD unless you also
show knowledge of the pre existing literature at a really
high level.

Speaker 1 (59:04):
Yeah, and also, I mean I did this at a
time you know you can probably relate. You know, I
did my PhD before the use of computers as the
basis for your literature study. So you know, for us
old dinosaurs, you know, it was it was a very
different process.

Speaker 3 (59:19):
Things weren't available online.

Speaker 1 (59:21):
There was a handful of things you could get online,
but most everything you had to sort of get in person,
purchase the journal, or go to the library and do
it in the stack. So it was a very interesting,
kind of laborious process. But yeah, I mean, look, I
went to UCLA. It's a very very fine research institution,
and you know, I worked in the neuropsychiatric Institute, and

(59:43):
I was really grateful to use the resources, you know,
to work with the population that I did. And yeah,
you know, I ended up studying the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis,
which comes up a lot on our podcast as people
talk about stress and about trauma and so you know,
I actually, I am really grateful that I have that vocabulary.

Speaker 3 (01:00:03):
And yeah, I'm very proud, Bruin.

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
You know, I was there for the entirety of my
undergrad and graduate career and so yeah, it's it's it's
something to be very very proud of. And like I said,
there's also been so many iterations of my life and
becoming a parent and choosing to be home you know,
definitely shifts that and those are decisions that are still hard,
you know for women and of course for men, but

(01:00:27):
that's still something you know, that's a that's a real challenge.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Yeah. The dissertation it was called Hypothalmic regulation and relation
to maladaptive, obsessic, compulsive, affiliative and satiety behaviors and Praeter
Willie syndrome. Do you have any scientific journal articles that
you published from that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
No, My my doctoral research was like an exploratory study,
so yeah, it wasn't something that was published from there.
I did you know, I co authored a chapter in
a neuroscience textbook with a few others from my lab
for the research that I did an undergrad.

Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
But no, I was not a journal person. And yeah,
I was part of a very small lab.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
And actually my thesis advisor moved to Vanderbilt right after
I declared my my doctorals subject, so I was actually
supervised from AFAR, so I wasn't part of a larger lab.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
Well, I'll link in the show notes to your dissertation
from profile.

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
Thanks. I think you can see the abstract. Yeah, it's
so hot.

Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
I think the whole things here. Yeah, the whole I got.
I got the whole thing right here.

Speaker 3 (01:01:36):
That's good times.

Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
Yeah, good beach reading.

Speaker 4 (01:01:41):
J C. J C.

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
We're going to bring you in here for the last
couple of minutes. I do want to talk a little
bit about the difference between spiritual intelligence and i Q
type intelligence. J C. Jonathan Cohene, you seem you strike
me as someone with high spiritual intelligence. It's just an
intuition I get about you. What is your own inner experience,

(01:02:04):
like do you feel like you draw a lot on
your own sort of intuition and uh and kind of
altered state of conscious consciousness one.

Speaker 4 (01:02:16):
I mean, yeah, I guess I don't know, I gather Yeah, yeah,
I definitely do. I don't necessarily, you know, intellectualize it
as that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
Mm hmm, yeah, what is the experience? Like do you
both of you two do you do you feel it?
Would you describe yourself as uh having spiritual intelligence.

Speaker 1 (01:02:39):
And Jonathan as a yet Jonathan has a belief in
you know, energetic things and things that I struggle to
even understand. But you know, as I as I frame it,
he like checks in with the universe throughout the day
about intuition and like that's new to me.

Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
Wait, really if I have to explain it?

Speaker 4 (01:03:02):
And this is something that was developed over time, right,
Like I came to a lot of this stuff through
intense emotional struggle, intense depression, questioning if life is worth
it and what the path is? What is there a future?

(01:03:22):
And throughout a lot of you know, finding joy and
things to feel connected to. I had various teachers along
the way, and one of them basically explained the universe
or you know, the world we're living in is being

(01:03:43):
filled with frequency, almost like radio wave. And so when
I use it like that, when I sort of tune in,
what I'm doing is holding an idea, a thought, a possibility,
a situation in my mind and then going to where

(01:04:03):
that thing is around me, because I don't believe it
is in me. I believe that the body is an
instrument that can sense and deliver feedback, and that the
information or you know, by creating an image like pick
a scenario, you know, how would it be to make

(01:04:23):
four of these decisions, or like launch a new podcast
about this particular topic. Is there energy or resonance around
that the way I'm imagining it, And I can close
my eyes and then travel inward while also holding that
understanding or that image and sort of tune in and
use the body as a calibrated tool to say, is

(01:04:46):
there what does that feel like? And it could feel
really intense and powerful, like there's a big spark. It
could feel sort of sputtery or fleeting. It could feel disperse,
It could have a shark to it, and there's sort
of all variety of different feedback that can be delivered,
and I use that to help me. Makes I just

(01:05:09):
use it as another input, and then I analyze it, Well,
why does it feel really disperse and like it's kind
of floating and there's nothing that I can tangibly hold
on to. Well, what if I add an element? What
if it's not the idea I thought about but something else,
and does it change something? Or what if it's I
add a person to it? And then sometimes it's like, Okay,

(01:05:30):
I'll put it away and then I'll wait for that
idea to come back and play with it again. But yeah,
there's all manner of strategies to use that information. And
I consider that information to be as valuable or more
valuable because it can see beyond, you know, the two
hundred foot headlight beam that I might have through my

(01:05:52):
intellect and knowledge alone, because it calculates variables that may
not have happened yet.

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
Thank you for expressing that. I think that it's very
hard for people who are not like that to wrap
their heads around what it's like to be like that.
I'm resonating, like, do you ever meet someone where it
just you feel like there's some sort of incongruence and
you just can't articulate it yet or cognitively figure out.

(01:06:20):
But it kind of irks. It mirks me when I
see such extreme incongruence.

Speaker 4 (01:06:26):
I mean, the most simplistic way to describe it is
that the vibe is off. But that's not a scientific term,
and it's not intellectual, and you know, it's very easy
to dismiss that because it's so subjective. But I would imagine,
you know, if someone is coming to you and trying
to like give you rational intellectual explanations of why something

(01:06:48):
should happen or is a certain way, but there's an incongruence,
you can sense it immediately. And for me what happens
is my ears. I'm an auditory processor, and when someone
talks to me without a high level of congruence, I
don't hear what they're saying. All I hear is like,
like I actually hear it, Like I could say, here's

(01:07:09):
kind of what I think you're saying to me, but
it sounds like gibber gibberish. It's like one wa wah,
and I'll be like, well, you kind of just said
this and that and the other thing, But I don't
think it's any of those things that you're talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:07:21):
Do you feel like you can detect psychopaths like I
feel like I get like a certain spidy spidy tingle
when I meet some people, and it's like very rare.
I'm not saying this happens every day in my life.
I feel like I'm also very sensitive to other people's
emotional lives. I can generalize it beyond just the psychopath thing,
and it's hard for me to like differentiate their emotional

(01:07:43):
life from my emotional life, like because I feel like
it's it's you know, sometimes I get overloaded. I get
so overwhelmed with feeling whatever they're feeling or not feeling
in the case of sometimes I am in the presence
of people I feel like are so devoid of being
able to like make a human connection that it like
really scares me in a way.

Speaker 4 (01:08:02):
Well, there's a couple of things that strike me about
what you're saying. Yeah, And I do relate, and I
appreciate you sharing that because.

Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
I think it is I thank you forget I have
no idea what you're talking about, Scott, I think no, no,
not at all.

Speaker 4 (01:08:16):
I forget who we were talking to recently, but like
we were having a conversation and was like, of course
we interact before we actually physically meet someone, like we
had we've spoken about the idea that our physical body
is not the limit of of us, meaning that there's

(01:08:39):
an energetic body around the physical body. So and this
happens through time and space. Also like we're on this
zoom and of course we're interacting, but when we met
in person. You know, as you arrive, all parts of
you have arrived at the house, and then you get closer,
and we're analyzing that data before you walk in the door.

(01:09:03):
Then you walk in the door, and we're analyzing that data.
So what I hear you saying is like you're just
analyzing that data and aware that you're analyzing it. Most
people do that anyway, have a visceral response, but the
logical mind is so geared to being the dominant force
that they're not aware that this is happening. So they
may start to be like, oh, my stomach hurts, but

(01:09:25):
actually maybe there's something going on in that interaction or
other people, you know, they may come into a room
and almost like kind of glom onto someone and they're oh,
Scott's going to get a book. He's out, he's out
of here, he's back.

Speaker 2 (01:09:41):
Yeah. Yeah, Well, I would say that not everyone feels
that way though. No, I think you're giving everyone too
much credit.

Speaker 4 (01:09:47):
What I would say is that that that communication is
happening all around. But I think in my experience there's
a few things that caveat this. One is that some
people's energy body is very shut down and it's not
a vibrant force around them. That can be the result.
In my again, non scientific analysis, could be the result

(01:10:09):
of many different reasons, so that I won't go into.
But I do believe that actually most people are feel it,
but are not registering the fact that they're feeling it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
Interesting, guys, I know we have to go, and it's
killing me because I'm left wanting to continue this conversation.
So why don't we be friends? And I mean, with
your permission, with consent, let's be friends. And and I
really want to keep up the conversation. This is a
great book that no one's read except me called Boundaries

(01:10:41):
in the Mind, And something I'm super fascinated with, which
relates to what we're talking about, is their individual differences.
There really are in people who have inner boundaries between
self and world, and there's so much here that hasn't
been scientific investigated. I'm here, I'm here for it.

Speaker 1 (01:10:56):
So yeah, I'd love to I'd love to continue this.
Hopefully we'll have other opportunities to talk. One of the
things that Jonathan, you know, has sort of taught me
about is that a lot of the reactions that I have,
in many cases, a lot of the anxiety I have
may actually be that I'm receiving information that I honestly
don't know how to process, or that I'm being influenced

(01:11:17):
by things that I previously thought were you know, woo woo.
But you know, I've had more than one person say gosh,
certain people are really sensitive to things like, you know,
even if you don't want to believe in em f stuff,
sensitive to sound, sensitive to other people's emotions in ways
that can disrupt your being. And it's been a really

(01:11:40):
interesting exploration to say, gosh, what happens when we get quieter,
when we try and master, you know, what's going on
inside of us before trying to take care of what's
going on with other people.

Speaker 2 (01:11:49):
Guys, so much here, so much here, Because I really
do think there's something profound here. I really do think
people differ in their boundaries and the way their brains
are wired to allow them to receive and not receive stuff.
So let's put it, let's table that for a further discussion.

(01:12:09):
Thank you so much, guys for being on my podcast.
And this has been such a delight being on your
podcast and then you guys coming on my podcast. It's
been an absolute delight for me. I hope it's been
for you.

Speaker 3 (01:12:19):
Well.

Speaker 1 (01:12:19):
We hope it will continue continue in our friendship and
the work that we do.

Speaker 2 (01:12:23):
So thank you sounds great.