Busting Viral Mental Health Myths w/Joe Nucci

This week, Scott speaks with psychotherapist and writer Joe Nucci, whose work tackles the intersection of mental health, misinformation, and pop psychology. Joe has built a large following by debunking viral myths and bringing nuance to conversations that are too often oversimplified online.

Together, they dive into his new book, Psychobabble: Viral Mental Health Myths and the Truths to Set You Free. From the overuse of labels like “narcissist” to the assumption that mindfulness is good for everyone, Joe challenges widely accepted but misleading ideas. They also take on bigger cultural narratives—like whether everyone has trauma or whether everyone should be in therapy.

This conversation sheds light on how misinformation spreads, why it matters, and what we can do to ground our understanding of mental health in science and compassion.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Part of the book is one of the parts is
called social Schisms, and it's mental health myths and in Society,
and a couple of the chapters I talk about how
just political the field has become and how there's you know,
some people come from this school of and I do
my best to be really objective, like I certainly have
my opinions and personal philosophies about this. And my personal

(00:23):
opinion philosophy is that if you are going to over
prioritize systemic change, you shouldn't be a therapist. You should
be an activist, like you should go and advocate for
the change of laws or you know, whatever it might be.
Because I believe in the individual's ability to kind of
rise above, to play your book, you know what I mean,
and to transform. But it seems that a lot of

(00:46):
people will, you know, take different studies or different thinkers,
whether it's their sound bites or an insight from their research,
and then run with it as a way to conduct
therapy that is overly one sided in terms of advertising
individual autonomy versus systemic change. And I think that for me,
I really strive to be able to do both in

(01:07):
my practice, because either route can be helpful and curative
depending on the person in front of you.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we explore
the depths of human potential. Today we have Joe Nucci
on the show. Joe's a psychotherapist and writer whose content
contextualizes mental health misinformation, pop psychology facts and fallacies, and
culturally misconstrued ideas. In addition to having a large Instagram following,
he is author of the new book Psychobabble, Viral Mental

(01:41):
Health Myths and the Truths to Set You Free. As
Joe notes, while the speed at which talking about mental
health has increased at an unprecedented scale, not everyone is
qualified to talk about mental health. In this chat, we
deflate some myths about mental health, such is the idea
that everyone should go to Therapyizing your thoughts is always
good for you, hurt people, hurt people, your ex is

(02:04):
definitely a narcissist, and mindfulness is good for everyone. We
also touch on some heavier issues, such as the idea
that everyone has trauma and that everyone is neurodivergent. This
was not only a fun chat, but I think also
an important one, as so much misinformation is propagated on
social media and Joe is here to set you straight.

(02:25):
So that's further ado. I'll bring you Joe Nucci, Joe Nucci,
the Nous. How are you doing.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
I'm good. I'm really happy to be here. Thanks for
having me on your show.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
Oh it's an honor, really great book you just wrote
called Psychobabble Viral Mental Health Myths and Truths to Set
You Free. I give it a ten out of ten. Ten.

Speaker 1 (02:49):
That is the best thing to happen to me this week. Yes,
because it's so it's Oh, yay, that's awesome. That's pretty good.
I'll take that. I'm glad I could contribute to that. Well, yeah,
it's it's such a great book because it's needed in
this time. There's so well, as you say, I'll pay
it in your words this quote the speed at which

(03:10):
talking about mental health has gone from taboo to commonplace.
The speed at which talking about mental health has gone
from taboo to commonplace is unprecedented. Well, everyone is talking
about mental health, this is the key part. Not everyone
is qualified to do so. And so this is why
your book, this is why your book is so necessary,

(03:30):
because there's so many myths being propagated. I think that's
the word promulgated, pro propagated, something just floating around the cybersphere.
You know, if I open up TikTok for three seconds,
I'm bound to run across some babbel psychobabbel that just

(03:52):
isn't true. So you really tackle comprehensively virtually all the
ones that I could think of. Maybe maybe some about intelligence,
but we can talk about that, but maybe I'd love
to talk about that.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
Maybe maybe you could have added one at IQ, you know,
or something like that. But but nevertheless, we're really comprehensive.
And so I had a lot of fun trying to
just pick which ones I wanted to select for our
conversation today.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
All right, well, let's get started. I'm curious, did any
of them like surprise you or was it kind of
like back to back, like agree, agree, agree.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
I've got to be honest, it was really like herd
degree hard degree nice.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
Nice, let's do it.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, yeah, because a lot of these things are things
that I've been trying to I mean that we're we're
definitely on a similar frequency, you know, we're definitely vibrating
on a similar frequency. So uh, and you put it
and you just put it in such such great accessible language.
So I think the one that that just makes sense
to start with is the myth everyone should go to therapy.

(04:55):
So now if you're not going to I have a friend, Uh, well,
I was on a podcast with someone the other the
other day and she goes, She's like, what, my friend
shamey that I that I'm the only one out of
my friend group that doesn't go to therapy. Should she
feel shamed?

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Well, it depends. I don't know what's going on with her.
If she has a diagnosable mental illness, or if there's
a ton of dysfunction in her relationships or at work,
then maybe maybe it's it's worth getting at least a
consult to see. The reason I started with this myth
is this is actually a mental health myth that I

(05:30):
believed for a very long time as someone who went
to therapy when he was younger and really benefited from it.
And of course I am a therapist and see how
beneficial it can be. But what I write about in
the book is there's just such a big difference between
benefiting from something or hoping to benefit from something and
then like actually needing it to be functional. I don't
talk about it in the book. But I've thought long

(05:52):
and hard just about the supply and demand of the
mental health marketplace. And you know, let's say there's five
hundred thousand therapists in the United State, which is a
definitely like a gross overestimate, and we have over three
hundred million people, and all of those people are seeing
forty all those therapists are seeing forty patients a week,
which is again an unsustainable case, like an overestimate. There's

(06:13):
still tens of millions of people who who fit that
one in four people being diagnosed with the mental illness
who would need weekly therapy that just can't get it.
And so something I talk a lot about in my
content and I touch on the book one of my
other chapters is you know that's therapy isn't the only
way to work on your mental health. I think I'm
very pro coach. I'm very pro like other types of support,

(06:34):
and I think we it's less of like, oh, this
is kind of my philosophical position I'm planting in the sand.
It's like, well, I think, just like the demands of
the economy in general, like society, I think we actually
need it to be thinking outside the box.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
Okay, so not everyone needs to go to therapy. No,
and there are other It is therapy the only way
to heal someone or increase their well being.

Speaker 1 (07:01):
It depends on what you mean by heal. I think
that I'm very partial to something that doctor Alan Francis
writes about in his book Saving Normal, which was a
huge inspiration for my book and view on a lot
of stuff. Have you read his work are you familiar?
He published it in twenty thirteen, and the idea is essentially,

(07:22):
we can't be medicalizing everyday life. And he has this
wonderful quote in there. I remember where he says, you know,
if it's a mental illness, it is not going to
get better on its own, like it needs intervention, and
the longer it goes without intervention, the harder it's going
to be a quote unquote cure. But if it's just
a regular problem of living, if it's a problem that
we kind of all deal with, the healing powers of

(07:45):
time and like support from loved ones, you know, will
take care of it. And so I think I would
paraphrase that to adapt it to my answer. Depending on
what you mean by healing, maybe maybe you need therapy.
But I think that a lot of life is just
really hard and kind of inherently tragic, and and time
and just general support or even stuff like personally, I'm

(08:07):
not in therapy right now, but I am spending that
money I would spend on therapy. And I go to
the spa every once in a while. I work with
a trainer at the gym. I'm just kind of like
taking care of myself in other ways. And let me
tell you the right head, neck, and shoulders. You know,
routine can be just as cathartic, you know, is a
good cry or a good session.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Good good. So we've just we've just cracked two myths.
We've just what's what do you do with myths? You debunk?
We just debunked. I don't know if you crack this.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
I once I once was watching this YouTube video who
was it? Where the metaphor was a myth is like
an air mattress. It's wonderfully comfortable, but it's filled with nothing,
and then deflation causes an uncomfortable jolt. And so I
guess that's what you kind of do with myths. Yeah, okay,
we just thank you. I have trouble with metaphors. Yeah,

(08:59):
so I always mix my metaphors so yeah, good. I
like that we deflated. Just we just depleted two metaphors.
Let's keep going, Let's do keep going. Analyzing your thoughts
is always good for you. There is definitely definitely false,
And this is certainly one that I used to believe

(09:20):
in practice, particularly when I was younger. It was actually
a I think it was an episode you did with
doctor Jonathan Height that I listened to on on on
your show where I picked up on the term co
rumination and I immediately flashed back to being on the
phone with family members or friends growing up, and you know,
and we're just yapping and yapping and analyzing and analyzing,

(09:41):
but really we weren't moving towards anything productive. There was
no emotional integration, no catharsis, no problem solving. And I
also know that, just as a trained practitioner, that engaging
somebody in analysis when it's not clinically indicated can lead
to a disintegration of their personality structure. And I think

(10:01):
in severe cases it can lead to types of psychosis
like delusions, or if you're you know, working with someone
you know with pre existing psychosis, that's not how you
work with them. You know, you don't necessarily help them
like analyze, you help them kind of form a different
relationship to their thoughts. And maybe I'm biased because I'm
very partial to cognitive behavioral therapy. I think it's sort

(10:22):
of like the bread and butter of what any therapist
can do. But I think a lot of people are
analyzing and then they're complaining that they go to therapy
and that they know why they are the way they are,
but nothing's changing. And for me, that's a sign that
the therapist needs to then engage you in a cognitive
modality or a behavioral modality, or some sort of problem solving,
sometimes a little bit of an Sometimes less is more

(10:44):
when it comes to thinking about your thoughts. Can you
say that last line again? Yeah, Well, sometimes less is
more when it comes to thinking about your thoughts.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah. And I think there's this it's maybe not fully
appreciated how it could be damaging detrimental to your mental
health too, every single therapy session ruminating about this one
thing that happened to you when you were three.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
Sure, well, I've had patients come in that we're you know,
previously had a practitioner that was very partial to the
kind of old school psychoanalysis modality. And you know, it's
something I get a lot of flat for on my
platforms when I when I criticize psychoanalysis, but I think
I think the criticism is well deserved. I was primarily
trained psychodynamically, so that's kind of like the for those

(11:34):
of listening, that's like the modern version of psychoanalysis, a
little bit shorter and a little some modern twists on it.
But I've inherited more than one patient who they come
in and they're really they're really good at ruminating that,
they're really good at talking about the tragedies of their
childhood and their trauma and and you know, all of it.
But it's it sometimes feels like therapy has become more

(11:55):
of this like ruminative performance. And when I gently and
passionately and sensitively try to move them out of that,
they give me this look, well, that's not what this
is for. And I always have to wonder to myself
as like, well, what do you what is it's for?
Because I think it's to help you get better? You
know I And and even though they're often reluctant, that
they often do and it's often because we actually move

(12:17):
out of the thinking about their thoughts and analyzing their.

Speaker 2 (12:20):
Thoughts so much. I mean, what do they say it's for.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
Yeah, well, it kind of depends on where they're at
in the stages of change, right, And so some people,
if they're in that contemplation stage, which means that they're
aware that a change can occur, but they're not really
ready to take action yet, it can manifest as all
sorts of different things. Sometimes people are a little bit
rebellious and it's a little bit like, don't tell me
what to do, even though that's not what I'm doing.

(12:47):
Some people are very ambivalent, you know, about maybe trying
a different modality, and some people are just resigned. They've
been in it for so long that they can't really
even imagine any sort of action planned working, even though
they can maybe intellectually understand that they could try different things.
And so that's one of the benefits I think of
working with a skilled practitioner is those are the details

(13:10):
that we're paying attention to, you know, when you're trying
to develop some sort of self awareness or you're resisting
some sort of change. And I don't think I don't
know if the dopamine hits from TikTok and Instagram, even
in my own content, to be clear, are necessarily going
to kind of give you that more kind of bespoke
approach that I think is often required to help people.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah, yeah, there is this tension. But there's definitely tension
between the cognitive behavior therapy people and the act people
and the psychoanalysts. There's you know, at the conferences, you know,
there's it gets off for a cocktail parties. Yeah, at
the conferences, you know, because one I definitely want to

(13:52):
hear you to say, but I want to just state
the tension. A lot of people on the psycho at
or psychodynamic approach feel like there's great value in talking
about your relationship to your mother, and there's great value
in talking about your early childhood experiences, and a lot

(14:15):
of especially the mindful CBT approach, which I'm a big
fan of. Big shout out to Seth Gillahean and my boy.
His approach has really changed my life. But it's very
present focused. It's very present focused.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
Yes, yeah, well, I completely agree. I'm aware of the
tension as well. I was what I was going to
ask was, sometimes do you think to what extent do
you think how different are these things because sometimes if
I'm conceptualizing a case cognitively and we're thinking about their

(14:50):
underlying core beliefs, and like the cognitive restructuring require to
maybe get at some of those core beliefs so then
we can talk about the nor productive way. Sometimes it
feels very similar to pushing past defenses from the more
kind of dynamic or analytical way. So just a basic
example could be, you know, like the dichotomist thinking or

(15:11):
the black and white thinking. You know, sometimes I'm kind
of like, well, is there a meaningful difference between this
and splitting? And I think it's a I think it
can depend on the practitioner and of course, like the
person in front of you and how they want to
go about it. And I'm not saying there are no
meaningful differences, because I think, you know, restructuring your belief
is meaningfully different from having a corrective emotional experience or

(15:36):
some sort of a like emotional catharsis. But sometimes I'm
kind of like, and maybe it's just because I'm so integrative,
I'm kind of like, oh, yeah, like this feels pretty similar.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
You know, Yeah, yeah, I like I like in a
great yes, and yeah, I mean it depends the tolls.
You know, you have a lot of tolls in the
toll box. Sometimes it's the psychodynamic seems most appropriate for
what the person's going through, especially you know, in trauma

(16:06):
and formed therapy. I think that that can be valuable.
But I also think that CBT can be very valuable
even for people with trauma who would like to stay
more present focused.

Speaker 1 (16:17):
You know, it's interesting. It's not something I think I
talk about in the trauma section of my book, but
there's this believe I see all the time on the
Internet that cognitive behavioral therapy is not just unhelpful for trauma,
but it actually can be really really damaging. And as
someone who's certified in cognitive processing therapy and administers it
with fair regularity, I just don't get it. I mean,

(16:39):
I think, you know, bad therapy is bad therapy, and
good therapy is good therapy. But I'm always fascinated to
see these posts that's like CBT is essentially gas lighting,
or you know, cognitive therapy can't work if you have
complex PTSD, and I'm just I don't have the anecdotal
evidence for that.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
Personally, Yeah, I wouldn't know when they asked it on
like making absolute statements. Yeah, so sure, yeah, so that
makes sense. So expressing your feelings is always valid. I
feel like that's that's something that a lot of young
people are being taught right now. Quite frankly, Joe.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah, well, you know, I had on on my show,
I had Are you familiar with doctor Darby Saxby at
the University of Southern California. She's great, She's a clinical
psychologist and one of their departments there. She had this
wonderful op ed which is how I discovered her in
the New York Times that was titled this is Not
How You Help Team Depression, and in it she cited

(17:41):
some wonderful studies, some of which were, you know, very
kind of critical of these social emotional learning initiatives that
are kind of teaching like mindfulness in school, like just
really like feeling your feelings and stuff like that, because
what the what the data has found, it's not even
just her opinion, but the data has found is that
oftentimes when they implement these across large groups, particularly amongst
adolescents or children, is that the mental health outcomes are worse,

(18:04):
not better, which is concerning on its own, but one
of the things that we talked about when I had
her on my show was that if you are experiencing
clinical depression or anxiety because you are suppressing emotions, mindfulness
is a wonderful tool because what we often see is
that when you start expressing those feelings, when you start

(18:24):
to become more gruent or more express then the symptoms
actually go away. And I certainly endorse that. I see
that in my practice all the time. But if you're
helping a teenager who is, you know, afraid of public speaking,
self conscious, kind of developing these skills for the first time,
maybe what they don't need is to really breathe into

(18:46):
all of their you know, social anxiety and feel it
to its depths. Maybe they need to learn how to
kind of adaptively suppress it and go and experience the
positive reinforcement of, oh, that actually wasn't that bad. I
got up in front of my class and that was
that was good. So that's really the the spirit of
what this chapter was written about. Because people talk about
how feelings are always valid, and they are in the

(19:08):
sense that all feelings are understandable, but expressing them and
acting on them, well, the only person that has that
deal is an infant. You know, and the last I checked,
no one thought that infants were very you know, emotionally
intelligent in any meaningful sense of the word.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
Oh man, there's a start in my live skit. I
need to find it and send you the cliff. Uh.
It's like a trauma support group, and the guy running
the group is like, just everyone knows all feelings are valid,
and like, you know, and like the one you know
person talks about you know, this their hobble childhood. And
this other guy is like, I can't stand it when

(19:48):
people eat broccoli around me and it traumas I have
trauma over it. And anyway, He's like, it's just like
and and the other people snicker. And the guy, the
head guy they run, is like, do not snicker at Robert.
All feelings here are valid. Anyway, I'm gonna I'll send
it to you. I don't think I forget what his
thing was, but it was something trivial, but it wasn't,

(20:09):
you know, broccoli, but.

Speaker 1 (20:12):
I might have some traumatic experiences around broccoli myself. My
parents were no joke around the dinner table. There was
none of this I'm not eating my vegetables pas happening
in household.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
Well, if well, that's valid, that's valid.

Speaker 1 (20:28):
It is it is valid.

Speaker 2 (20:30):
Oh boy, this is a big one. Okay, we kind
of got the easy pasy ones out of the way.
Let's like dive into let's type. Yeah, so there's a
there's an expression hurt people, hurt people, and I I mean, anecdotally,
I think there are a lot of hurt people, hurt people,
But anecdotally I also see a lot of hurt people

(20:53):
who are some of the most empathetic people on this toy.
And so it seems like too blank at a statement
even and if it is true in some cases, what
are your thoughts?

Speaker 1 (21:03):
Right exactly? Of course, we can trace back the like
the origin of someone's motivation to hurt someone to their
own hurt. It's been my experience as a practitioner that
the vast majority of people who have suffered, you know,
some pretty just like unbelievable stuff Like That's the thing
that I think is sometimes missed on social media when

(21:24):
we're talking about mental health and destigmatizing it is some
of the stuff I hear during the week. I mean,
you just can't even believe it, like, and it's not
something I can I even want to kind of paraphraser
or summarize even with keeping confidentiality right now, because it's
just so awful. And I think about how that's impacted
these people who have shared their stories with me, and

(21:45):
they are often actually more of like the people pleasing,
highly agreeable, super gentle. They can't even you know, make
a simple request from their partner, you know, because of
their hurt. And so I think that that's one thing
that I highlight in this chapter. But then there's this
other thing where I think a lot of times people

(22:06):
use this blanket phrase hurt people, hurt people to actually
stay in unhealthy or unstable relationships, to accept treatment that
they know they don't deserve, because they're so empathetic that
they understand, oh, well, this isn't personal. This is because
of their childhood, or this person's having a hard time
at home, or whatever it might be. And I don't

(22:26):
actually think that's good for the person committing the hurt
or for you either, And that's why I think the
myth needs to be held up to scrutiny. I think
if I could upgrade it, I might say something like,
hurt people who do not process their hurt in an
adaptive way, or who have an undiagnosed mental health concern
might hurt people. But I also am skeptical, and this

(22:50):
is one of the other chapters in the book. I'm
skeptical of putting out there that you know, we only
hurt people, or we only do bad things because of
a mental illness. I'm not sure that's true. I think
my view on human ure is a little bit more
tragic than that.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
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all know, I'm committed to helping people self actualize. In
the service of that, I just had a new book
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a science backed toolkit to help you overcome your living

(23:28):
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(23:50):
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(24:11):
Human Potential dot com slash s a C. That's Center
for Human Potential dot com slash s a C. Okay,
now back to the show. I appreciate your perspective very
very much, and I'm just gonna add that we kind
of in that equation to kind of ignore, we kind
of absolve the person of responsibility for being an asshole,

(24:34):
because I mean, assholes hurt people. It's like, it's almost
like I'm trying to articulate my point, but the hurt
people hurt people thing, it's like it also absolves them
of the responsibility. A lot of hurt people may say,
may feel justified to hurt others because they're like, well,

(24:58):
I've been hurt, so therefore it all for justification like
I didn't get my do so I'm kind of like
correcting the cosmic balance of this great injustice against me
by hurting innocent people. I think some people hurt people
do think that way. But if you're a hurt person
and you think that way, like you should take responsibility

(25:19):
for thinking that way, which is not a very helpful
or healthy way of thinking about the world. It's not
just that you were hurt. They were hurt, and you
also developed some cognitive biases that are not accurate.

Speaker 1 (25:35):
Yeah, well, I think there's also I agree with all
of that, and there's also an undeniable element of subjectivity
when it comes to emotional hurt and pain that makes
this myth even more precarious because I think if we're
talking about, you know, physical abuse or violence, there are
certainly patterns that you can see where people repeat things

(25:56):
that happen to them in childhood with their intimate loved ones,
and I think that they're there's great clinical intervention and
hope for people that are that are struggling with that,
But as soon as you kind of move it into
where it's like, well, you know, my feelings were hurt,
you know, and then using that as a justification to
to hurt others. It just gets into such a murky

(26:17):
territory where I think the vagueness of the myth makes
it unhelpful, you know, because there's so many different people
have different levels of well, different levels of traite, neuroticism,
right and trade agreeableness and and all these different things
to where you know, I like I have, I have
a dark and irreverent sense of humor, and sometimes I

(26:38):
know I accidentally hurt people, you know, in just socializing
and and you know, and of course, like you, I'll
apologize or say face or whatever I have to do,
but you know, it's if they're really really hurt by that, Like,
is this like a helpful way to understand my sense
of humor? I would argue, No. You know, plenty of

(26:58):
people with very cushy and privileged childhoods also, you know,
hurt people. And they probably hurt people due to their
entitlement and maybe they're a little bit spoiled, not because
they necessarily suffered. It may have been the lack thereof.
And then you kind of hear that phrase, it's like, oh,
like so and so needed to get spanked more when
they were growing up but I'm not endorsing that as a
as a parental discipline, but I'm just saying that that's

(27:19):
like a thing that you hear, right, and so yeah,
it just starts to collapse in on itself, this myth.
I don't I don't buy it.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
Yeah, great, Well another another deflated? Is that was that right? Deflated? Oh?

Speaker 1 (27:32):
Yeah, deflated myth.

Speaker 2 (27:33):
Let's let's cover ADHD. ADHD it's the area of mutual
interest of ours, something I have a.

Speaker 1 (27:43):
Little a little of.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
So, but I think a lot of people say they're
ADHD if they just have trouble focusing or you know,
you see a lot of just flip and comments like it,
not just the DHD. Also with OCD, right, it's like, oh,
I'm so OCD, you know, because I'm acting a certain way.
But does that mean you really have OCD. So let's

(28:06):
let's deflate the myth that the reason you can't focus,
the reason you can't focus is going to be ADHD.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
Well, one of the things I was a very ADHD
way of asking you this question totally.

Speaker 1 (28:19):
Well, one of the things I talk about in the
book is I I go through like a very brief
historical analysis, a just different time periods, and it's like,
are we are we really gonna sit here and say that,
you know, before the internet, everyone you know was super
focused and nothing, you know, distracted us. Are we gonna
really believe that, you know, in medieval times when monks

(28:42):
are learning how to meditate, you know, however many decades
or hundreds of years ago, like pick your period in
time history. I mean, did did Michael Angelo never once falter?
You know, and all of these these projects, And I
just think the obvious answer to me is, of course
this has been a timeless problem. Like lowers and poets
and writers have all mused about this, and it just

(29:04):
seems to me that this is such a great example
of medicalizing everyday experience. And I don't know if I
talk about it in this chapter in general, but I
do think it's it's worthwhile to just bring up capitalism here,
because I think a lot of us, you know, in
a capitalistic society, we tire worth to our productivity and
our purpose and and all that stuff. And it you know,

(29:27):
I think a lot of people want to get an
adderall prescription. I'll just say it, for the performance enhancement.
I mean, I don't think that's like a secret, is it?
Like I don't know, you know what I mean, Like,
I'm pretty sure any psychiatrist or you know, anyone on
a college campus is aware that this is just not
a secret. Yeah, And I think it's okay to be

(29:49):
honest about that. But I don't think it's okay to
say that, you know, I I need this to function.
I mean, I have patients in my practice with ADHD,
and you know, they are usually very late. I don't
mean they're a few minutes late because they're kind of scattered.
I mean like it's fifteen minutes in and I have
to wonder whether or not to reinforce my rule that
I end the session, you know. But then this is

(30:12):
like the third week in a road. They're missing it
or you know, whatever it is, and we need to
review our skills, like there there are levels to how
impactful that wiring can be to your functioning.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
Good. Good. I'm just thinking, is there anything we want
to add because ADHD is such a rich topic and
there's so there are actually so many misconceptions about it.
I mean that's you know, you you couldn't you could
write a whole book right on just the myths of ADHD.
I think there are a lot of things. Here's another
one that's folding around your ADHD is caused by your trauma.

(30:47):
That's a big one that that's where I remind yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
And I've been, I've been. Maybe you see me writing
my responses to that.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
Yeah, Well, here's what I'll say about that specifically, is
the reason why you want to get diagnosed by a
psychiatrist or a psychologist that is competent in assessing for
ADHD is because it can look like a lot of
other things. I had a great testing psychologist on my show,

(31:20):
and one of the things we talked about was it's
something like one in three or two in three Americans
have disordered sleep, so not a sleep disorder per se,
but their sleep is not optimal. And let me tell
you when I don't have great sleep, my ADHD symptoms.
I don't know if I've said this on this show,
I have on other shows on my platform. I'm formally
diagnosed with it. If my sleep isn't good, my symptoms

(31:43):
are so much worse like it's it's actually like almost
unbelievable because I'll I'll start the day and I just
I just noticed that I'm just like walking in circles
and I have to go take my medication. You know,
it's one of the if the sleep is bad, that's
one of the only things that really counters it. And
so you know, if you're doom scrolling to four in
the morning every night and you're not kind of taking
care of your body, your vessel, maybe you don't have it.

(32:07):
Maybe adderall still helps, right, maybe these executive functioning skills
still help, but that doesn't mean you have it. In
a similar way, I could see how an over activated
nervous system due to trauma or chronic stress. I can
see how it mimics some of the symptoms. But me personally,
I mean, I would love to talk to doctor Mate
because I do think he's very smart, and I feel

(32:29):
like what I'm saying is not all that controversial or original.
But I do think that what I'm saying is true
and ADHD can also be real. I don't think we
need to bring it to the extreme that it's just
caused by trauma.

Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yeah. Well, I've written some very extensive critiques that people
can consult Psychology Today article about that, and I've had
some very intense and detailed email correspondences with doctor Mante
and my latest one to his I want to say
we we kind of ended it on a very friendly

(33:05):
mutual respect notes where I was quite pleased with where
we landed after not starting that way at all in
the email. Change was like not the tone was not
starting well, but it ended.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
You know.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
Our most recent correspondence is that we actually agree in
a lot more than we disagree with. And it's just
the big sticking point with him that we I guess
agree to disagree at this point is that he is
I think genes play a far greater role than he
gives it credit for and uh and trauma plays far

(33:43):
lesser role than he gives it credit for in terms
of the development of ADHD symptoms. So so we can
kind of we can we can say that both contribute somewhat,
but I think we really fundamentally just gray on the
nature nurture sort of contributions, because there is something it

(34:05):
means for your brain to be wired in a certain
way and genes play a pretty substantial role in that.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah. Interesting, Well, I wonder what like an epigenetics expert
might say, or like a behavioral biology expert, like I'm
a big fan of doctor Robert Sapolski at Stanford in
his work or someone kind of in his field, could
be it could be interesting to continue the exploration in
terms of where the line is.

Speaker 2 (34:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I present some data to him,
to doctor Mante, but he I present if I gave
him those precise studies that are relevant. But anyway, we
don't need to go down this whole rabble.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
Well, what I do want to say about that before
we move on is, while I might disagree with him,
I do think it's it's not like the proliferation of
that myth on social media and into culture. It may
not be entirely his fault or the people that kind
of of parrot those talking points, because I know that.
You know, for example, Brene Brown is really famous for

(35:06):
talking about like vulnerability and courage and all these things,
and a lot of people have taken that. I write
about this in the book too, right where it's like,
well maybe more intimacy isn't better, Like maybe there's actually
like a healthy amount here. But in my research for
the book, I went and rewatched one of her ted
talks and I had forgotten about this, But she actually
talks very frankly and writes about in her books she

(35:27):
goes the kind of complete, raw vulnerability she's talking about.
Not everyone she talks about this, not everyone is entitled
to your story or your whole story. Maybe one person
is all you really need. And I think a lot
of people actually miss that, you know what I'm saying.
And so i''m sure that some people are maybe taking
a clip of you know, mate, or whoever it might be,

(35:49):
and then running with and being like, oh, well, this
is all just trauma based where you know. It sounds
like even though he has a very strong point of view,
he is capable of the nuance and maybe that just
doesn't get passed to long in the game of telephone
that we're all playing.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
I would completely I would very much agree a lot
of his ideas get incredibly simplified and taken out of
context to serve people's personal agendas. And the same thing
with Bernie Brown. I write about that in my book
Rise Above Youously in the introduction I talk about we
have the culture of vulnerability on steroids, and you can't
believe that on Bernie Brown, but you know, you can

(36:29):
kind of blame it on a lot of people on
the internet right to an ad mass group of nameless
people on the Internet. We can kind of blame it
on them totally. Yeah, well, you know, people do take
You know, there are scientists who try to be objective,
who try to publish in journals and then get peer reviewed,

(36:50):
but there are there's a whole other world where people
in the general public and on social media are cherry
picking scientific findings to serve their activist agenda or to
serve their own personal to confirm their own personal viewpoint
or ideology. And you see that a lot. And that's
unfortunate because the truth is often way you know, all

(37:12):
this I'm not saying this. I'm more saying this to
my audiences are often way more gray than black and white.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yeah. Well, it's something I write about in a part
of the book is one of the parts is called
social Schisms, and it's mental health Myths and in Society,
and a couple of the chapters I talk about how
just political the field has become and how there's you know,
some people come from this school of and I do
my best to be really objective, like I certainly have

(37:41):
my opinions and personal philosophies about this, and my personal
opinion philosophy is that if you are going to over
prioritize systemic change, you shouldn't be a therapist. You should
be an activist, like you should go and advocate for
the change of laws or you know, whatever it might be.
Because I believe in the individual's ability to kind of

(38:01):
rise above, to play your book, you know what I mean.
It's a and to transform. But it's it seems that
a lot of people will you know, take different studies
or different thinkers, whether it's their soundbites or an insight
from their research, and then run with it as a
way to conduct therapy that is overly one sided in
terms of prioritizing you know, individual autonomy versus systemic change.

(38:26):
And I think that for me, I really strive to
be able to do both in my practice because either
route can be helpful and curative depending on the person
in front of you.

Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah, you're a very interesting presence in the in the
in the public therapist realm because as well as private
therapist realm, because you, I mean, I actually don't know
what your politics are. I you keep me on my toes.
You say one thing and then I think, oh, yeah,

(38:57):
Joe's like totally libertarian, and then you'll say something else
and I'll be like, oh my god, that was a
woke thing for Joe to say. Basically, you mix it up,
you know, like one second you're talking about how we're
over systematized, you know, we're focused too much on systems,
and the next breath you're saying critique of capitalism. So
I'm like, what are you, Joe? And that's okay. I

(39:19):
like to be the same way, So I I get,
I get, I get you, I see you that vibe,
I get. I like it. But do you have critiques?
You know, given all that, do you have critiques of
the wocization of therapy training that's going on right now? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (39:38):
Absolutely. One of the the textbooks that I cite my
book is a textbook called Counseling the Culturally Diverse by
doctors Sue and Sue. They were at Columbia. I don't
know if they are anymore. I've never corresponded with them directly,
although I would love to, but I know that in
their textbook they they write about the superordinate nature of

(40:03):
multicultural counseling, and multicultural counseling by their definition is you know,
however you want to define it very woke, very kind
of postmodern, progressive, various systems change focused, and it's their words,
not mine the super ordinate nature as in, this is
more important than the other kind of clinical models and

(40:26):
frameworks that we have. And I know that I have
encountered colleagues both when I was in grad school and
even after grad school, where this is their primary theoretical orientation.
This is how they treat people. And for me personally,
I cannot see how they are a competent and well
rounded psychotherapist. I just I simply cannot see it.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
And I.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
Mean that with with like the hope that if that's you,
it might maybe it encourages you to seek some pure
consultation or to kind of think about how you're conceptualizing cases,
because the truth of the matter is, yes, of course
systems matter, but at the end of the day, engaging

(41:09):
someone in a systems change conversation when number one, there
are things they could do as an individual to improve
their situation, and number two, it's not a systemic change
that is going to happen in a timely fashion. I
think that is a recipe for increased stress, and I
think the increased stress will make their symptoms worse. Let

(41:30):
me tell you a story just to kind of exemplify this.
I've had more than one patient in my practice, and
I think because I am so politically ambiguous, I do
attract people all from all sorts of kind of backgrounds
and belief systems. And I've had many people who are

(41:51):
are more on the left who who come in and
they're often so constrained by their beliefs around like identity.
So I'm thinking of more than people have you know,
felt like, well, they don't want to really tell me
what's what's going on because they're white, or they're rich,
or they're privileged in some capacity, and other people have
it so much worse, and they just feel so guilty

(42:12):
for even feeling like they have a problem. What I
often do with that person is I don't engage them
in a in kind of a philosophical exploration. I will,
you know, if that's if they're really intellectual, and it
seems like that would be good for apport. But what
I often do is I actually get curious about the underneath.
And it is almost always connected to you know, growing up,

(42:33):
the parents told them to never complain and always be grateful,
or you know growing up, this is you know, they
were felt, you know, a kid you know, bullied them
for having money, and it really like stuck with them
in a profound way, and so they always kind of
over corrected or like whatever it is. And I have
found that, you know, we work through that and they're

(42:53):
they're political philosophy on like you know, systems or identity.
It just doesn't even matter anymore. And my concern is
that a lot of therapists aren't doing that because they're
so married to this kind of multicultural counseling model that
I think is I think is very shallow at best.

(43:16):
Well you don't mince your words, do you, sir?

Speaker 2 (43:19):
No?

Speaker 1 (43:22):
One of the I think it's you know, it's one
of the strange benefits of doing what I do because
I got I got hate from an early video, a
video where I said the whole point of the video
was we were talking about it earlier, you know, not
everything you think is significant, don't analyze all your thoughts.
And I got so much hate from it, and in
a way it was a blessing because it kind of
made me realize. I was like, well, I might as
well be honest, and it's it is I think in

(43:42):
a healthy way. Speaking of behavioral therapy systematically desensitized me.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
You know, fair enough. You you you you crack me up.
You you say great things. We also your your your
delivery cracks me up sometimes on Instagram because you have
a little bit of this like, you know, like this
kind of like for the camera. You're a little bitchy sometimes,

(44:07):
do you know what I mean? And totally and it's
uh it, I mean, I see why you're so popular.
First of all, I mean, congratulations on what you've built,
you know, on uh, your following, because you're saying you're
saying truthful things that are very science uh, you know,
evidence based, and but you have this sort of funny delivery.
So anyway, let's let's move on to something no less controversial,

(44:32):
but mindfulness. Mindfulness is you know, uh, Mick mindfulness is
also is a thing. You know, mindfulness is important, but Mick,
mindfulness also exists, right like this kind of you know, yeah,
this this that you talk about. You talked about capitalism earlier, right,
don't don't you know isn't there a connection between capitalism
and the flourishing of mindfulness in the West?

Speaker 1 (44:56):
But probably, I mean it's not something that I'm only
like getting present to it for the first time in
this moment. But I think that it's funny because right
ten twenty years ago, people that preached mindfulness or meditation,
it was like you quack, like you hippie. And now
if you talk to your doctor that you've been feeling
off mentally, they're like, well, have you tried meditating? Like

(45:17):
it's just like the first thing that they slide your way.
And what I talk about in the book is I say, look,
I mean mindfulness, to be clear, is such an important
skill that yeah, if not everyone, most people could benefit
to learn and practice and develop that muscle. I often
think of mindfulness like a muscle, but it is not
the correct intervention or skill for every situation. And when

(45:39):
it comes to your mental health, I think it can
actually be harmful. I talk about in the book a
very early patient of mine, I actually facilitated the meditation
perfectly because they got very settled in their body and
out of their head and they had a full blown
panic attack in front of me in the office, and
I remember being so bewildered. But they didn't they didn't
have the skills to navigate that baseline, which was panic

(46:02):
and self loathing, and you know, all these trauma responses
and all this stuff. And so I think you have
to be thoughtful whether you're a therapist, whether you're seeking therapy,
about what to do first and in what order. I'm
assuming you're familiar with like DBT dialectical behavioral therapy. Absolutely, yeah,
wonderful modality to skills based modality.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
A lot of fans. I'm a fan.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
Oh, I'm a fan too. Well, I'm such a fan
that I you know, I when I was learning how
to facilitate it, I remember reading my textbook and being like, wait,
I can't believe I didn't know this. I was like,
I was learning some help.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
I felt the same way I went to I happened
to see a therapist once, and I didn't know until
later that they specialized that their whole thing is like
for people with borderline and that wasn't my issue that
I was presenting. But so I accidentally stumbled into a
borderline clinic and they taught me DBT to to help

(46:56):
me deal with some stress I was experiencing from just
teaching at Columbia, and those techniques helped me with all
my issues, even though they were the issues weren't borderline specific,
you know, being able to help me, you know, like
being wise mind when I'm you know, dealing with conflict
or I'm dealing with you know, difficult students totally.

Speaker 1 (47:21):
Well, that's the thing, you know that that they don't
tell you about DBT. It's not just for borderline personality
disorder anymore. It's I've never brought someone through it who
didn't benefit from it. And the way I was taught
was to do the distress tolerant skills before the mindfulness skills,
and a lot of people aren't taught that way and
they don't facilitate it that way. But for any therapists

(47:42):
who are listening, I think it's worth assessing your different
cases on a case by case basis and just being curious, Well,
if I do the mindfulness skills first, do they have
like a baseline where they can handle it? And not
everyone does who's in therapy. And that's okay because they
can learn.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
To get there. Okay, So just I want to just
put a to wrap up in a neat bow. This
myth we're talking about, so we're not all over the place.
Mindfulness is good for everyone? False?

Speaker 1 (48:12):
Correct, False? It is. It can be good for you
in certain situations, but kind of like we were talking
about earlier.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
You know, if.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
The teenager that needs to practice public speaking, right, I
would argue that that might actually be the opposite of
what the correct intervention or coaching technique is. It could
actually make things worse depending.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. I do assign
my students a paper showing that for some people with
who are still stuck in this ruminative, unhealthy and ruminative
stage from trauma's mindfulness can actually make can exacerbate certain

(48:54):
mental issues. You don't talk about that finding enough as
we probably should.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
Yeah, well, especially in the trauma conversation, right, because it's
it is a formal definition of PTSD. There's the avoidance
of the stimuli. But you may also see like the
rumination or like they they are seeking out the stimuli,
and in that latter case, being super mindful might not
be what's needed. It makes more sense if you're avoiding

(49:20):
it because it's too triggering or too activating, and so
learning to be mindful, learning that the feeling will pass,
that might make more sense. And so it's just another
really great example of how a lot of times these
sound bites aren't maybe as psycho educational as we'd like
them to be, because these nuances really matter, you know,
this isn't I find it that I feel like I've
been saying this a lot, you know, on different podcasts
and different stuff that I've been on, Like I'm not

(49:42):
doing this because I'm like, you know, well, I'm a
licensed therapist, and I'm wagging my finger at you for
not using this term like correctly. It's like, no, this
has consequences for your mental health, Like this is actually
important to talk.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
About, absolutely, and a good therapist is aware of all
this and and you know, may assign certain things for
the client to work on with the caveat this doesn't
work for everyone, and if it's not working, we'll move
on to something else. So yeah, just having that flexibility,
I think it's key as a therapist. Yeah, so that's

(50:16):
Hopefully therapists are listening to this podcast episode and reading
your book. Hopefully, if for nothing else, it gives them
more flexibility in their toolkit. Okay, next one, this one's
very near and dear to my heart is neurodivergency nerdiver
so that the myth is your awkward friend is neurodivergent,
but so, but really, what's underneath this is aren't we

(50:38):
all just neurodivergent? Joe?

Speaker 1 (50:40):
Right? Well, you you're familiar with this movement and also
the literature, maybe even more than I am, so I
would love to know what you think. The thing that
kind of tickles me about the neurodiversity movement is the
idea is that we all have different nervous systems that
we need to honor. And I'm kind of like, but
didn't we know this before? I'm like, I don't, Like,
I feel like, didn't I learn that like in high school? Like,

(51:01):
you know, like, it just doesn't seem to be the
be the the bold claim that a lot of people
treat it as. But maybe maybe I just got that
listened early and I was lucky. Like I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
I mean, individual differences exist, yeah, and there are so
many dimensions upon which we differ, But the key question
on the table here is are we all nerdivergent? And
then it begs the question like what does it mean
to be nerd divergent? And historically it's tended to focus

(51:38):
on a subset of individual differences, things like autism, primarily,
but then expanded to dyslexia and sort of like any
kind of developmental disorder that you have, and it's expanded
to that all mental illnesses, and then on TikTok it's
expanded to your if you're just thirteen years old, do

(52:00):
you know what I mean? Like a lot of teenagers,
like almost all teenagers on TikTok id as neurodivergent.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
Right, Well, you know, I'll tell you a personal story.
So when I was younger, I was I went through
formal like psychological testing, and one of the things the
testing psychologist found was because I was probably like I
don't know what, like ten, I'd love to look at
the results. I bet my mom still has them tucked away.
This was kind of before everything was digitized, so it

(52:27):
might be more difficult to locate. But the point is
is that, you know, I wasn't diagnosed with anything at
the time. But what he pointed to is that there
were kind of asymmetries in my development. So there were
certain cognitive capacities that were quite advanced for my age,
but then it's like my athletic capacities were very underdeveloped.

(52:48):
I had certain social capacities where I was. It's funny
because I think myself as such a a social person
now and like, you know, very like you know, quote
unquote emotionally intelligent and all this stuff. Like I was awkward,
Like I was the king that like read in the
library during recess instead of playing with the other kids,
you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (53:05):
And oh, I know what you mean.

Speaker 1 (53:07):
Oh well, all that to say is that I think
I was very lucky that I got I had this
individuals as a practitioner, because this psychologist, you know, he
didn't slop any diagnostic labels on me. He basically made
the recommendation and said, look, this is where he's overdeveloped,
this is where he's underdeveloped. This is the kind of
schooling and kind of extra attention that I would recommend,

(53:29):
so he grows up to be balanced. And I do
feel balanced as an adult. How unfortunate would it have
been if, at the time my parents interpreted this to
mean that I have this condition or this disorder, and
so let's just, you know, let's just kind of fill
in those gaps however we can. Let's like get him
the accommodations and call it a day. My parents didn't

(53:49):
take that approach. For better or for worse, they were
just like, we are going to force you in sports
until you are no longer physically awkward. And now it's
like I identify as that athletic person, you know what
I mean, I can hold my own out. At the
time when I'm a teenager, I hated that, you know
what I mean, Like I didn't want to go, but
I'm so glad that I did. And so when it
comes to the to bring it back to this, the

(54:09):
myths on neurodivergency, I bring up the story because I
think when it comes to the teenagers and the kids,
I think this is super dangerous because any developmental psychologist
who has even read one textbook, you know, understands that
these are these things are not foregone conclusions. And yeah,
I guess I just wanted to to start that. I
would love to know what you think, because it's it

(54:31):
is concerning not just to see how many teenagers. And
I actually have more sympathy for the teenagers because there
are identity experimentation and they're trying on hats, but it's
also these like parents that are kind of like, you know,
kind of claiming these labels and you know, I mean,
they'll give me some some trouble for saying it because
I am not a parent, but I'm kind of like,
are you sure you know what you're doing?

Speaker 2 (54:51):
Well? Your point, Your point is very well taken, and
I really appreciate your perspective. It sounds like you're kind
of making the argument that the label nerd diversity in
itself we should hold very lightly and maybe it's not
even a very helpful label. I would maybe disagree with
you your perspective in the sense that I don't think we're

(55:12):
all nerdivergent. I think it does. There are some people
where they're extreme trait and the way they're wired puts
them like one to even two standard deviations out from
the mean, which can make it very very It does
create and creates a need, and a lot of parents
need a label in order to get those resources for

(55:34):
certain kids. So I would say, yeah, yes, and what
you're saying, I agree with what you're saying in the
general population. I also think that there are specific cases
that whatever we label it, the labeling does create a
need that allows important resources for certain people.

Speaker 1 (55:54):
No, I completely agree, and I think that's that's actually
the reason why this myth needed to be included in
the book, because I think that the more people talk
about it as in like, oh, well everyone's nerdive verge
and everyone's adhd, everyone has a little bit of autism,
the less we lose sight of what you just said,
which is, well, actually, some people need accommodations, Some people
need a little extra support, or they need to design

(56:16):
their lives a little differently to be optimal. I also
think too, so I wrote my grad school capstone. I
wrote about disability accommodations in the workplace, and I remember
encountering a study in which they found that going into
workplaces and doing psycho education explaining the kind of biological

(56:37):
bases for mental illness or dysfunction actually increased stigma and
punishing behaviors in between colleagues, unlike physical disability, where like
you know, someone's in a wheelchair and you might need
to help them like reach something up like on a shelf,
because the message that ended up getting taken away was
something like, oh, this person's bipolar, or this person you

(56:59):
know has eight each year. Whatever it is, it's in
their brain. They can't fix it, they can't change it.
And so that's part of like the stigma is it's
like oh, like this is now just like annoying and
inconvenient for me. And so their recommendation was to focus
less on that in the workplace and more on just
like cooperation and team building and kind of those standard

(57:20):
organizational psych principles, which I thought was very interesting. Like
I wasn't expecting that to be the result, but I
think it makes perfect sense applying that to the neurodiversity conversation.
A lot of people I think can feel dimpowered to
try to get better or improve or just ask for
the accommodations that they so clearly need.

Speaker 2 (57:42):
Very well said, I think we're definitely an agreement on that. Yeah, yeah, well,
this is the value of conversation. By the way, I
think a lot of people will like in conversations these days,
and politics especially, it's like, oh, I disagree with you fundamentally,
and then that they shut off from listening. The more
I listen to you talk, the more I really I

(58:03):
can calibrate and realize that we are very much on
the same page. And uh, you know, I just think
there's great value in conversation totally.

Speaker 1 (58:12):
Oh me too, And that's one of the things I
love about being a therapist and having a platform is
I'm talking all the time, and you know earlier you
were acknowledging me for my boldness. Let's say, but even
though it's not always fun and you know, the you know,
the emotions can feel intense on all sides of it
and stuff. I do think that just being in the

(58:34):
conversation and being honest and doing your best to articulate
whatever your your point of view is, Like I like,
I'm someone that believes in the truth, Like I I
it's one of my core beliefs, core principles. And I
think that you know, we'll we'll all help each other
get there one way or the other. Yeah, we could

(58:54):
do our part to try to move in that direction.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
This is a big one because I constantly everyone so, okay,
everyone's ex is a narcissist, right, myth or not?

Speaker 1 (59:06):
Yeah, I think it's a myth. I think that I
think that it's not to say, you know, I like,
I think a lot of the awareness around narcissism is
is good because it's a real thing, you know, and
you encounter these people in your life. And and here's
the thing, even if we're just going to go on
the strict like definition of like narcissistic personality disorder. It's

(59:27):
still like what like one in fifty or like whatever,
the prevalence is, like you're still going to meet someone
like this, Yeah, like in your life.

Speaker 2 (59:35):
It's it's really on a continuum though, you know, like
oh totally yeah, yeah, well yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (59:41):
Guess to say, even in the most like kind of
strictest criteria, you're still good to interact with somebody like this.
So it's good that we know. But I take issue with,
you know, a lot of the advocacy that's happening on
the internet about this because to me, it seems and
I don't I don't say this in the book, but
this is the conclusion I continue to write to. It
seems that a lot of these pages that are dedicated
to it are perfect. It's a perfect fertile breeding ground

(01:00:04):
for a lot of vulnerable narcissism and just people who
feel like they are always the victim of every single relationship. Look,
here's the deal. Breakups are really tough, and a grandiose
coping style, you know, compared to an insecure one. So
grandiose for those who are listening, a grandiose person might
react to relational stress and be like, well, well, I'm

(01:00:25):
the best thing that's ever happened to them, and they
would be so lucky, and I'm awesome and I deserve
better and all this stuff like that does come across
as quite narcissistic, and maybe it is, you know, somewhere
like on that spectrum, right, but it is just as
normative as the insecure coping style, which is, well, well
I'm so unlovable and I'm worthless and I'll never meet someone,
and like kind of like those thoughts as well, Like

(01:00:46):
both of these reactions are normal. I don't think that
we should be pathologizing either of them, because no one
is at their best in a breakup, you know, or
when a relationship starts to kind of die on the vine.
And so one of the things I talk about in
the book is that, you know, if we're gonna if
we're gonna normalize this term, we have to talk about
it like on the spectrum, like you said, And I
think that we also have to make room for the

(01:01:09):
for the perspectives that for some people, a narcissistic personality
is a is a coping style. It's it's it's a
response to low levels of self worth. And I think
and it's more moderate to mild manifestations. I think it
can be helped with therapy, and I think it could
be helped with therapy because I think a lot of
therapists have helped it. Like, I don't think that's a
controversial thing to say. You know, no, that's not controversial. Though.

Speaker 2 (01:01:32):
You see a lot more vulnerable narcissists, or those who
score high in vulnerable narcisism on the couch than grandiose narcissists,
usually those with very high scores and grandiose narcissism and
on the couch because their girlfriends forced them to see
a psycho therapist. That's that's that. That's what my That's
a quote from Keith Campbell, one of the world's leading

(01:01:53):
narcissism researchers, said that to me. He said, you know,
those who score very high in grandiose narcissism rarely seek
out therapy because they see the problem is everyone else.

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
Yeah, well, you know, it's something I mentioned in that
chapter in the book. But I think the distinction of
that maybe vulnerable narcissists are finding their way into therapy more.
I don't know if that's talked about enough, and it's
something that I think needs to be because one of
the difficult things about being a therapist is you're just
going on what the person in front of you is saying,

(01:02:26):
and most good therapists aren't. You know, We're taking it
all with a grain of salt. We're kind of trying
to figure out, you know, like the deeper dynamic here.
But at the end of the day, that could be
very difficult. And that's actually why I love working with
couples low key, like, because it's just so nice to
have both them there and be like, that's not what happened,
or that's not what you said, and you can just
kind of get to the truth a little bit easier.

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
Agreed, Now, that makes complete sense, Joe, That makes complete sense.
And another implication of the fact that narcissism is a
continuum is that we all have our narcissistic moments. And
I think there's value in reflecting on the ways in
which your own narcissism may be part of the system
problem of you and the other person. You know, if

(01:03:07):
you view if you view it as like an interaction effect,
as opposed to it's all my partner's fault and I'm
an angel, you know, are you really fully understanding all
the dynamics at play? Probably not if you're doing if
you're splitting in that way totally.

Speaker 1 (01:03:25):
Well, you know, And there's the there's the I think
the case for kind of like adaptive narcissism to be made,
Like if I need brain surgery one day, I would
like it if my surgeon was a little narcissistic, you
know what I mean, Like I want him to have
a bit of a God complex. Yeah, you know exactly.
We don't want it to be arrogance. We don't want

(01:03:45):
it to be overcompensating for any deficits. But I think
that you know, there's or like even people like in
media right it's been shown have have higher rates of
this of this trade. But I also think it's it's
good to have people that are willing to be you know,
a spoken or putting their point of view out there,
advocating for whatever cause they believe in. And if that
that comes from a little bit of narcissism, my point

(01:04:06):
of view is, you know, I think that's okay. I
think I really like because you talk about this in
your book right above, don't you that we need to
start thinking about it, like it's like being extroverted or
neurotic or kind of like these different things. Like, I
think there is a dimension, not that it's its own
standalone personality trait necessarily, but it's it can have adaptive

(01:04:28):
moments and maladaptive ones.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
A last question, last one, last myth, last myth. All right, everyone, okay,
everyone has trauma? Is that correct or incorrect?

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
I come from the school of thought that this is incorrect.
And the reason I think that's incorrect is for a
couple of different reasons. The first reason is a trauma
like having PTSD or c PTSD or just general trauma,
like the general label of it. It's less about what
happened to you and more about your current relationship with it.

(01:05:06):
So we know that two different people can get into
a car accident or go to the same war, and
one will come home and adapt fairly well, and then
the other we'll have a full blown PTSD or some
serious dysfunction. And so that's number one. I think it's
more accurate to say, you know, maybe lots of people

(01:05:26):
have trauma responses they need to work on, you know,
But I think that saying that was traumatic or that
thing that happened to me was traumatic, it's giving so
much more power to the event in your past versus
who you are now. And then the other reason why
I don't think it holds up to scrutiny as I
think about, well, there's other negative experiences that are deeply

(01:05:47):
meaningful and even life and even can impact you throughout
your life that are not trauma. And one of the
things I talk about in the book is there's difference
between trauma and grief. And I talk about losing my
dad and I certainly developed traumas reponses from that, and
therapy and different support has been wonderful and that whether
it showed up in my relationships or whether it showed

(01:06:07):
up for the years after. But I also deal with grief,
and I'm a big fan of the school of thought
that grief is cumulative. It's something that affects you throughout
your life. And I talk about in the book. You know,
there was a everyone is fine now, but I had
a family member that a bit of a health scare
a year or two ago. It's actually when I was
writing the book, and that brought some stuff up for

(01:06:28):
me and the other family members. You know, having lost
my dad, we are a little sensitive. You know to this,
and I remember talking to my therapists at the time
and I was very emotional, and he called it a gift.
He was like, this is such a gift for some
of this grief to surface and for you to integrate
it and process it. And I remember being so annoyed

(01:06:49):
because I knew he was right, but I didn't like
want to hear it at the time. I don't know
a single therapist out there, myself included, who would call
a trauma getting severely triggered, you know, a trauma response
getting severely triggered decades later, a gift.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:07:05):
I just don't know anyone that would do that. And
I think it's important to talk about this difference is
and if the field decides that trauma and grief are
more similar than they are different, I am super happy
to have that conversation. But at the moment, I don't
think that's what anybody is claiming.

Speaker 2 (01:07:22):
Very interesting, Well, I wonder how the post traumatic growth
field what to view that. Maybe not a gifted question,
but an event that led to growth, I think is
a fair statement. But that's a different phrasing than gift. Yeah, Well,
it's just my head is just swimming, and we basically

(01:07:45):
we covered like the entire field of psychology today and
so it's been so elucidating and I hope helpful to
our listeners to be able to sort out the facts
from the myths. And and yeah, I think you're doing
such a great service through your online presence as well

(01:08:08):
as your book. Congratuute, congratulations on the success cue of
the online world, and all the best with your book tour.

Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
Okay, yeah, thank you so much. I'm I'm so glad
you had me on the show, and I'm so glad
you liked it. I read Transcend. I guess when did
that book of yours come out? It was a while ago,
and that's my first introduction to you, and so it's
it's really like cool, like it's a little bit surreal
that we're like here talking about it, and I just
I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:36):
Well, thank you, Joe appreciating