July 31, 2025 • 48 mins
This week Scott speaks with journalist and Atlantic staff writer Olga Khazan about her latest book, Me, But Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change.
Olga shares her personal journey experimenting with ways to reshape her own personality—armed with insights from the latest psychological research. Together, she and Scott explore whether personality traits like introversion, neuroticism, and even antagonism can truly change over time, and what science says about how we can become better versions of ourselves.
This episode dives into the surprising plasticity of personality, why certain traits are harder to shift than others, and the real-life tools that can help spark meaningful, lasting transformation.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
So narcissism would be associated with like low agreeableness. So
people who are narcissists and yeah, that's like a good
example is that they're like, oh, well, like I have
to look out for me because like no one else
is going to And our society kind of encourages this too,
Like we live in a kind of dogg eat dog society,
so you do kind of always think like, well, I
(00:21):
need to take care of myself, even at the expense
of other people.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we explore
the depths of human potential. Today, we have journalists and
author Olga Kazan on the show. Olga is a staff
writer for The Atlantic an author of multiple books, including
her latest one called Me But Better, The Science and
Promise of Personality Change. In this episode, we discuss Olga's
journey to change aspects of her personality based on the
(00:52):
latest scientific research on personality change. We also discuss why
antagonistic personality traits are so hard to check change, some
of the benefits of improving your personality, and practical ways
you can make real, long lasting changes to your personality
over time. So, without further ado, I bring you Oga
Kazon Oga, Welcome back to the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
And congrats in your new book, They but better the
science and promise of personality change. Now. I think what
a lot of people think of personality. They do think
of something that's set in stone. They're not aware of
all the nuanced, nerdy psychological debates between states and traits
and all that. Can you just give our audience an
idea of what is personality?
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So personality is the way most researchers define it is
the thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that come most naturally to you.
And though that sounds like it's something that wouldn't change
over time, if you think about it, it's also the
behaviors and the feelings that allow it to reach our goals.
(02:01):
So if you have a goal of making more friends,
or a goal of getting more organized, you know, or
a goal of I don't know, traveling the world, those
goals might require you to change some of those quote
unquote natural personality traits that you have. So it's sort
of it's what's within us, but it can also change
over time.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
So you don't take an essentialist approach to personality.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I don't I really feel like.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
We have the capacity to change if we want to,
and that's something that I found in working on the book,
and then what kind of some of the research shows
as well.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
So why did you decide to take on this year
long experiment? Obviously, thinking personality can change was a good
start in your mindset if you're going to go to
a whole year trying to change.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah, So I really was going through something when I started.
I was just really unhappy. So I've always had really
high levels of anxiety, and it was getting to a
point where it was really just like undermining my happiness levels.
Like nothing particularly bad would happen, but I just felt
(03:15):
just really anxious all the time about everything. And I also,
I mean COVID was sort of easing up around the
time that I started working on this, but my social
circle had really frayed during COVID and actually even before COVID,
and I kind of was going really long periods of
time without interacting with anyone, Like I was just kind
(03:35):
of like by myself all the time, and so I
wanted to kind of expand my social circle and deepen
my relationships. I also wanted to bring my anxiety and honestly,
depression levels down, and kind of the more I read
and researched, the more I saw that personality traits were
at the root of some of those experiences that I
(03:57):
was having.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Oh wow, well, thanks for being so honest about what
you're going through. Then I kind of want to just
skip to the punchline. Did it help? Did going through
this year process help? And then we'll fill in all
the details.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yeah, so it did help. In particular, my extraversion levels
went way up. I think I just realized that I
was not as introverted as I thought I was, and
I kind of learned some strategies for reaching out to
people that I hadn't been comfortable with before that. My
(04:34):
extraversion went up a lot, My agreeableness went up a
fair amount, and my neuroticism also went down a fair amount.
In particular, I became a lot less depressed. My anxiety
did go down some, but it was really in my
depression levels that I noticed a big decrease.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
It's really promising, and it suggests that therapy might alter
personality traits. Yeah, over the long run. So I think
it's very promising to hear there's some seminal research being
conducted by Nathan Hudson and colleagues. And there's this paper
from twenty eighteen called you have to follow Through Attaining
Behavioral Change Goals predict Voational Personality Change, and there's a
(05:19):
whole appendix of all these challenges that one can go through.
Can you talk a little bit about what challenges you did?
And you know, how did you set out to do
this for a year? What did you consult to do?
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Yeah, so Nate was one of the people I consulted.
So a big part of my book is based on
Nate's research, and so sort of what I did is
I looked at his study that you have to follow Through.
Basically what he did is he found a bunch of
I guess undergrads and he was like, do you want
to change your personality? And then they were like yes,
(05:54):
or among the ones that were like yes, it was
like okay, great, what personality trait do you want to change?
And you know, they would pick a personality trait that
they wanted to work on, and he would assign them
like challenges that had been pre written, and so if
they wanted to become more extroverted, he would kind of
have them say hi to people, or plan a lunch
(06:14):
with someone, you know, what have you. So I borrowed
from those challenges, but then I also kind of added
on my own challenges that we're challenging. So one of
them was actually doing improv. So I in addition to
kind of just reaching out to people and like scheduling
(06:35):
more lunches and more get togethers, I also signed up
for an improv class, which is not something that I
would normally do. I'm actually not a natural performer and
I don't like being on stage. And I'm also not
very silly except when I'm with my kid, and so
(06:55):
this is like a big leap for me. But I
kind of just wanted something where I would see the
same group of people over and over again, where I
had to be extroverted while I was doing it. I
couldn't just like withdraw into myself, and where it was
like a commitment device, like I couldn't back out, you know,
at the last minute. And so that's kind of where
the improv idea came from.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, I love that. I actually just got off a
call with Kelly Leonard from Second City. I'm working on
a project with Second City, and I just love improv.
So much, and we actually talked about you a bit
and I loved having you on this podcast, he said,
He's great. Yeah, so kind of yes, ending life is
a way of like, okay, let me phrase it this way.
(07:40):
Which personality trades do you think are most likely to
change if you yes? And life? I think open is
to experience the first one that comes in my head.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
But yeah, yeah, so the improv kind of like yes
and perspective. It definitely was so for me. I did
improv to increase extraversion, but I actually think it it
like worked on a number of different levels. Yeah, agreeableness too,
because like you really and honestly maybe a little bit
(08:09):
of like anxiety as well, because you really have to
become okay with letting go of control, Like you have
to kind of release, uh, this feeling that like you
have to be in charge of everything and you have
to dictate how everything goes because like you're just not
going to be able to with improv. It's other people
kind of running forward with their own ideas and you
(08:30):
have to like pivot around them. So I think it's
great for neuroticism. I think it's good for agreeableness because
you're just naturally kind of trying to get in tuned
with others, and that's kind of what you have to do, uh,
in order to be more agreeable in conversation is to
like kind of really listen to what other people are saying.
And yeah, definitely openness as well. I mean it just
(08:52):
makes you kind of like up for more things, because
once you've done improv you really can do anything.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Is that way? Yeah, it feels like you can handle
anything and turn it into something that maybe uh is
more aligned with you but doesn't negate the other person.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah, that's really cool. Okay, So the Big five personality model.
I teach personality psychology. I'm teaching a personality lab course
at Colombia this fall, as well as personality psychology lecture.
So let's do a little lecture for our listeners. There's yeah,
there's an extra version, introversion, right, conscientiousness. What's the other
(09:33):
poll described as.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Laziness, disinhibition or something.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, okay, oh that's interesting. That Okay, that I need
to process that agreeableness, disagreeableness or antagonism, uh, neuroticism and
emotionality yeah yeah, and then open to experience or and
then I guess closed mindedness. Yeah, so there's the Big five,
(09:59):
and then it's a hierarchy. So underneath the Big five,
there's two aspects of each Big five, and under that
there's facets. Under facets you have an infinite number of
so there's you know, we're not just talking about five.
But and then at the higher level, right, I'm sure
you came across the big two stability and plasticity.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Oh you know, I had not seen a lot of
discussion of stability versus plasticity, but I mean, definitely my
book kind of addresses more the plasticity side of that.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Yeah, that's true. That's true. Although I know I yes
to end that, but I kind of disagree with that.
I think you also really do cover stability when you
talk about reducing your depression levels. That's a big emotional
stability is a big part of the stability. Oh yeah, yeah,
so that too. Yeah, so I guess that was a
yes end Yeah, you did stability end plasticity. Anyway, AnyWho,
(10:54):
I wanted to just let our listeners know what the
map of the train is there, and let's just go
through each of the Big five and just tell us
about your journey. Do you mind do you mind if
we do that. Sure, yeah, let's play. Okay, so tell
me what I was like to dance like everyone is watching.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Yeah, So that was my subtitle for extroversion because that
is what extroverts like to do. So starting out, I
was very introverted. I scored extremely low on extroversion. And
the pushback that I normally get on this is that
I'm an introvert. I don't want to change because I
(11:33):
like being an introvert. And I read that Susan Kayne
book and now we don't feel like I ever have
to leave my house. And I look, I felt the
same way like I was, like, I'm an introvert. There's
nothing wrong with being an introvert. That's just how I am.
I will say that a lot of studies at this
point show that when you when introverts behave in an
(11:54):
extroverted way for a few minutes and normally that just
means socializing for a few minutes with other people, they
tend to feel happier. So they get a little bit
of a happiness boost from community, which makes sense. Like
if you if you think about, like all that we
know about what our needs are as humans, we have
to feel seen by others, and we have to feel
(12:16):
like we're part of something. So it's you know, it's
like COVID was so painful for so many people and
so and that's kind of what I found is that
I never felt like going. I hated going improv Like
almost the entire time, I always wanted to back out,
you know, never wanted to actually follow through on any
of these commitments. But when I would go and you know,
(12:38):
socialize for an hour, hour and a half, I always
felt a little bit happier. Like I always felt like,
you know, I got a little boost from social interaction
that I didn't get from basically any other activity reading,
you know, watching, scrolling social media, whatever else. And yeah,
I think that's like really the takeaway lesson there is
(12:59):
just that like even if you feel very introverted, it
can it can provide a big mood boost, and I
don't know, I think a big boost to your overall
happiness if you just make an effort to connect with
other people. Doesn't have to be with improv.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Of course, of course, and let's be clear about what
is introversion and what isn't an introversion. A lot of
people conflate social anxiety with introversion, and those aren't the
same things. So by improving by increasing your extraversion, we're
telling about what exactly.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, So extroversion has a couple different elements to it.
One is like just activity level. So honestly, just like
doing more activity is a form of extraversion. So even
if like you're going to a book club and you
don't talk that much at the book club, that still
counts as extraversion because extroverts just kind of like do
(13:57):
more stuff. And so that's really a good guiding principle
for introverts who are trying to get out there a
little bit more. They of course like feel like friendlier
and more cheerful when they're out and about, like they're
kind of their people people, you know. But I would
just start with the kind of general like getting out
of your house element.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah, interesting enough. And when you look at change goals,
you you don't see as many experts wanting to be
more introverted. You usually say, it's true, you know, for
some of these you there might be more of a
trend for more people to want to be in one
poll than the other, for all the Big five and
and for that one. Yeah, but but also I want
to make clear there are happy introverts. I've written about that,
(14:42):
and uh and a lot of that is acceptance of
your traits seems to moderate your I wrote an article
for scientif American and are their happy introverts? You know?
And yeah, there are, they exist and yeah. Yeah, but
if you want to change, you can, if you want to,
you know, have a little more flex ability in your
repertoire of social strategies. You know. There you go, and so, uh, well,
(15:07):
what's like one thing you do now that you a
year ago you would not have thought you'd see yourself doing.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Yeah, A big thing that changed for me.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
So I I should say, in the middle of writing
this book, I had a baby, and I'm really glad
I did this before I had a baby, because my
whole approach to like new motherhood changed. And what I
did was I joined these like new moms groups. Like
I've been really not aggressive that sounds weird, but like
(15:39):
active about trying to reach out to other new moms
and make connections with other new parents. And in a
way that I definitely would not have like before I
started working on this, like I would have. I'm not
really a joiner. I don't. I was like always the
last kid pick for kickball or whatever, Like I'm not
really like someone who likeways, clubs and groups. But I
(16:02):
just decided that this is going to be different and
that I was going to be part of these groups.
And that really has made such a huge difference in
my new motherhood, is just not being isolated and off
on my own and having a support network.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
That's a great example. Yeah, I think you're gonna see
something like dancing on tables and clubs or something, but.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I wish I just don't get to do that that
much because I have a sixteen month old.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Understood, Yeah, I understood. Yeah, Like I still liked your example,
but I was expecting thing really wild and racy. But anyway,
let's go to the next one. How about from overwhelm
to is that emotional stability yoga?
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah, so with emotional this was an interesting one because
basically all of the recommendations for reducing neuroticism, which neuroticism,
as you know, is like basically depression and anxiety. To
reduce those, the big recommendation is meditation, and people who
are highly anxious do not as a rule like meditation.
(17:09):
And I am among those people. I really have never
liked meditation. I have a really hard time with it.
I would almost be doing like like anything else in
the time that I'm meditating, and I did for this,
I took a class called MBSR where you have to
meditate for forty five minutes a day, and you also
(17:32):
have to sit in on these lectures that are like
basically like Buddhism for dummies, Like they just like walk
you through Buddhist concepts, and most of them I had
heard of already, and I was kind of like, this
is so dumb, This is like a weird waste of time,
like I would like look at Twitter and stuff like
I was just like, this is silly.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
But it worked.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
My neuroticism went down a lot after this class, and
I think it was maybe more do to these like
Buddhism for Dummies teachings than due to the meditation, although
I have no real way of knowing, because as some
of you might know, like a big part of meditation
is that you're not supposed to like try to like
(18:14):
clear your mind. You're supposed to just like be okay
with whatever comes up. But I kind of think that
the Buddhist teachings made more of an impression on me
than the meditation did.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah, I kind of resonate with that, especially with my ADHD. Yeah,
I find it really meditation would be really hard, but
it can also be really helpful. But do you think
you're do you kind of see yourself as a Buddhist?
Speaker 1 (18:44):
I do sometimes describe myself as a Buddhist. I think
my outlook on life is has become more Buddhist over
me too, just like so I So, I guess to
make a concrete example, I used to have a lot
of self blame when things would happen to me that
(19:06):
were not good, Like when bad things happen to me,
I would kind of blame myself a lot, even if
there was no way it was my fault, Like I
would just like an example, like I would if I
tried to throw an outdoor party and it rained that day,
I would get like really mad at myself. And so
something that like this class helped me understand is that
like a lot of the bad things that happen in life,
(19:28):
you can't control, and that blaming yourself for misfortune is
only kind of contributing to your own unhappiness. Like there's
no like, you don't get a bonus for blaming yourself
when something bad happens. It's only kind of a detriment.
And this is like known as like the double arrow concept.
(19:50):
But for me, for some reason, it was just really
nice to hear someone say that kind of outside my
own head. So I don't know, so that that's been
something that I've tried to kind of keep in mind.
It comes up a lot with having a kid. A
lot of stuff goes wrong and you're like, well, that happen.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
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(20:35):
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Center for Human Potential dot Com slash s a C. Okay,
now back to the show. I could see that mentality
being a blend of the neuroticism as well as agreeableness.
I could see it. I could see it.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
I scored really low on agreeableness actually, so I don't know,
but maybe maybe to the extent that I am agreeable.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
I was like, kind of yeah, then.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
The source of it, yeah, So then the source of
it is more neuroticism, and well, to me, that's also
a self esteem issue which is tied to the neuroticism.
To mean will. Certainly, neuroticism is positively correlated with low
or self esteem. Yeah, and more self doubt is one
(22:11):
of the facets of neuroticism, so and rumination. So yeah, yeah,
h that makes a lot of sense. Anything else you
want to say about about your neuroticism journey before we
move on to another domain.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Yeah, So for this one, for people who really just
cannot stomach meditating, I would try to like introduce some
kind of mindfulness practice into your life. It doesn't have
to be just silent meditation. It can be like a
yoga class or even just like walking in nature while
like kind of not thinking about anything in particular has
(22:44):
been shown to be like a form of mindfulness that's beneficial.
So I would just try to do something that feels mindfulness. Ye,
even if it's not sitting down.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Good good, I could even yeah, I could just be
getting in the full state with the creative activity.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yeah exactly. Yeah, some people do like knitting or you know,
something with their hands.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Yeah, just reading a good book. Cool, Okay, So moving
move on to being down for whatever. Yes, are you
now exactly where you're at or whatever?
Speaker 1 (23:20):
So I was actually already really so I had two
big strengths coming into this. According to my personality test,
I was very high on openness and I was very conscientious,
So I did not really try to change my openness
level that much. I interviewed other people who had increased
their openness in various ways, and I experimented with some
(23:40):
of the like strategies that are often suggested for people
who want to increase on openness, so that these are
pretty obvious. It's like try a new, you know, form
of exercise. I tried surfing, you know, go on a
vacation to a new country. So I went to Portugal.
But the one that like where you know, the science
(24:03):
is really kind of new and is like really trippy
is psychedelics. So I interviewed some people who had a
lot of PTSD and from like various events in their
lives that had happened. And we might think of that
as like neuroticism, and I think there is a neurotic
component there. But for whatever reason, when they took MBMA
(24:29):
or another psychedelic it somehow like increased their level of openness.
Like that's what the study showed us was happening, Like
it boosted their openness levels and then the neuroticism kind
of came down in tandem with the increase in openness.
And it's still like not totally clear why that's beneficial,
(24:50):
Like why is it good to be open to new
things if you're trying to get rid of PTSD. But
the way one researcher explained it to me was sort
of that it helps you kind of imagine a different
way of thinking about the world, a different way of living.
So instead of being afraid all the time, you know,
what if the world is like mostly safe, what if
people are mostly good? And I think that might be
(25:13):
what was happening for these folks that I interviewed. But again,
I didn't personally try psychedelics for this. It was kind
of I looked at like the resource that was out
there and the people who participated in those studies.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Okay, fair enough, fair enough, Well I have and I
could say it definitely boosts openness to experience and love,
kind of sense of oneness for the world. Yeah, I
think is affected as well.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Yeah, people say they like, yeah, they feel like yeah,
oneness with the world, love less like yeah, like fear less,
less anxiety.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Yeah, yeah, good good stuff. Okay, even just I've done microdosing,
and that really you know, there's a whole research lettertron
the benefits of microdosing now as well, which is great.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
What are you microdose?
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Yeah, like five hundred milligrams of what? Oh psilocybin?
Speaker 4 (26:19):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Okay, yeah, yeah yeah. I mean it's not a big
a big dohase we're talking, you know, but you know,
even that can really kind of get you in a
more creative frame of mind less judgmental self self judge.
So maybe a lot lowers neuroticism too. Yeah, exactly what
anything else you want to talk about within the openness
(26:40):
to mean?
Speaker 1 (26:42):
No, I mean, obviously psychedelics are not like legal. They
can be really hard to access in a lot of places.
So I mean for people who kind of want to
dip their toe in, I would maybe try just like
a new, a totally new activity that's really outside your
comfort zone.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
So something like you I didn't typically do.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
It could be like rock climbing or solo travel or
something like that that's kind of pushing yourself a little
bit and is not not something you would typically enjoy.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Good. That's great advice, Great advice for those who want
to keep it legal. Okay, although people are trying to
change that right now. People are trying to lobby and
to show that there's a lot of scientific evidence coming
out on the benefits. Okay, how about agreeableness playing well
(27:32):
with others, but the opposite. I'm interested in antagonism too,
the dark dark triad. Did you come across the dark
triad in your research?
Speaker 3 (27:40):
I did.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
I had a whole section about the dark triad, but
I cut it because it was like things were spiraling.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah, and that's narcissism, Machaveelianism, and psychopathy. Did you come
across my light triad?
Speaker 3 (27:55):
I did not come across. What is the light triad?
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Contuinism not using people as I mean, to an end,
but treating people an end to themselves. Humanism, treating every
individual dignity and respect and faith in humanity, believing in
the fundamental goodness of humans. It's a more recent research
program than my colleagues and I have initiated just the
past five six years ago. That's a lot of research
is coming out about it.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Yeah, that sounds like a Unitarian universalism. Those are like, well,
my husband is that religion?
Speaker 3 (28:24):
And yeah, loving one.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Another, that's right, that's right. That's right. So agreeableness disagreeableness.
But here's one big one, Nathan, big big question I
have for you. Nathan Hudson has found that it's really
hard to change antagonism. That the whole to mean agreeableness antagonism.
It's hard to change. And it's not like there's a
lot of agreeable people who want to be more antagonistic.
(28:51):
But the other end is true too, there's not an
awful lot of antagonistic people who want to be more agreeable.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
So that's right.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
What do you make of this?
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Yeah, so agreeableness is one of the ones that's hardest
to change. Not a lot of people want to change it,
and if they try, it's like very difficult. I also
found it very difficult. I scored low on agreeableness, and
it like went up slightly, but it was like I
did so much and it was like very hard. So
(29:21):
a lot of the tasks for agreeableness is like thinking
about the people who piss you off in a more
positive way, or like thinking about like mean stuff that
people have said to you, and like what might have
been going on in their lives that would have prompted
them to do that. Like some people get sweaty even
like thinking about that. Like it's it's a very difficult
(29:41):
thing to like think positively about people you truly dislike.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
And I kind of noticed this.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
So one of the things that I did for agreeableness
is I took an anger management class and there was
a guy in the class who, like, God bless him
for being honest, but he was just like like they
were like, now imagine, like like they were like building
a bridge for like all of your enemies to like
(30:08):
come over and like join you or something, and he
was like, I want to build a bridge and invite
all my enemies on it and light the bridge on fire.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Like like I was like, you know, like I feel like.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
That's like a much more natural response than like whatever
they're asking us to do. But it's like it was
funny because like every single thing they asked us to
like imagine or like picture, he was like, no way,
Like I hate that person, and I like that is
kind of what you're asking. It's like it's like very
very hard to think more positively about people you don't like.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
It's so true are agreeable people. People are very high agreeableness,
and they more likely to invite all those people on
their boat.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yeah, so like the basically the goal of the anger
management class is like a lot of the agreeableness and
boosting tasks. And the people who you know who are
very agreeable, like these are you know, people are like
just drawn to them, Like they have a ton of friends.
They have like the BFFs from the time they were five.
They are like really close with their families. They like
(31:12):
make friends wherever they go. Everyone likes them. They're described
as like a total sweetheart, like you know, like usually
it's more common among women for them to be high
in agreeableness than men.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
And I just never have had that description applied to me,
Like I yeah, I just like people don't describe me
that way, and it has always kind of bothered me,
like like me better.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
And so that's kind of what I set out to do.
But it is it is really challenging and it can
you know, and you have to find the balance between
being a people pleaser and just being really nice if
you're going to try to boost agreeableness, because where people
like the reason they don't want to increase it is
because they think that it's going to make them into
a pushover.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
So yeah, that's true. That's very true. They don't see
it as a weakness. I see there, It is a
strength exactly. Yeah, I think with narcissism. Do you talk
about narcisism in your book?
Speaker 3 (32:13):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
I don't get into it. But yeah, so narcissism would
be associated with like low agreeableness. So people who are
narcissists and yeah, that's like a good example is that
they're like, oh, well, like I have to look out
for me because like no one else is going to
And our society kind of encourages this too, Like we
live in a kind of dogg eat dog society, so
you do kind of always think like, well, I need
(32:37):
to take care of myself, even at the expense of
other people.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yeah, there's our research finds there's two different types of narcissists.
Well there's more than two, but two main ones are
there's the extroverted narcissist and there's the neurotic narcissist. The
neurotic narcissist tends to it's called vulnerable narcissism. They tend
to feel entitlement due to their fragility, not superiority, whereas
(33:02):
grandiose narcissists tend to be very extroverted and just feel
superior to everyone. Do you want to move on? Are
you anything else you want to say?
Speaker 3 (33:10):
So agreeableness, I would say the.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Most yeah, did you change? I'm I did?
Speaker 3 (33:15):
I did?
Speaker 1 (33:15):
I did increase in agreeableness, And I would say the
most effective way to do it was.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
I went to this.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Conversation workshop and learned strategies for having more meaningful conversations.
And it's it's expensive and not everyone wants to go
to London and like do this weird thing that I did.
But using some of the strategies from that workshop in
that section of the book, I think will help helps
boost agreeableness and helps boost your ability to connect with
(33:47):
other people without like, you know, becoming like.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
A pushover or whatever. People are afraid of.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Cool. So what what what percentage when you say you're
at right now sixty percent? I think you're you're above
average of greableness now, but not extreme.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I would say I'm above average, but it's because I
have a kid and I have to always be patient
and kind to him, even when he's headbutting me in
the face and pulling my hair.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
It's really true, That's really true. Yes, Okay, fair enough's
let's move on to the go getters. How about that?
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Yeah, conscientiousness, the gritty ones, they're gritty. Angela Duckworth loves conscientiousness.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
She does.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Yeah, she's great. I actually talked with you for the book.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
So conscientiousness was another one that I was high on.
And so it's mostly interviews with other people who increased
in conscientiousness and with people like Angela who study how
to increase conscientiousness. And uh, this is another one where
people who are low in it don't know how to
get higher, Like they're just like, I don't get how
(34:56):
you do this, Like what what's the secret sauce? And
so it could look like forgetting where you left things,
forgetting appointments, being late all the time, being just like disorganized.
And I get it because I used to be like that,
but I somehow just like got my shit together in
my like late twenties and yeah, and so I try
(35:21):
to kind of walk people through how I did that
and how other people have done.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
That help come on through.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Okay, So a big thing that I noticed is that
people rarely become more conscientious if it's just like because
they want to, Like, it's rarely like a goal unto itself,
it's usually helping them achieve something else. So the people
that I interviewed that really became more conscientious, Like they
went from like never studying for tests to like acing
(35:50):
everything or forgetting like basically not doing anything all day
to like having a million calendars and like getting a
ton of tasks done. It's when they were doing something
that was truly important to them. So one woman really
wanted to start a business, and it was like she
was going to be like a freelance copywriter and she
(36:12):
just had to keep track of all of her clients
and all of her you know, deliverables and things. And
so she like had this giant whiteboard that she would
write everything on and came up with this like calendar
system and time boxing and all this stuff. But when
she wasn't passionate about what she was doing, like before
that she worked in a hair salon, which she wasn't
really that interested in. She never did that stuff like
(36:33):
it wasn't part of her personality. It's just these skills
that she learned because she wanted to achieve this goal.
And the same with Zach Cambrick, who's the guy who
became like a straight a student. He's actually a psychologist
as well now, but he started out never having written
a paper, never studying for tests, and he just decided, like,
(36:55):
I want to be an academic psychologist. I'm this guy
from like Nowheersville, Virginia, and I want to like make
something of myself. And that's really when he started studying
and like you know, using flashcards and reading a book
called like how to make A's or whatever is because
he had a goal that was important to him. So
I would just focus on whatever goal is kind of
(37:17):
overarching for you and that is keeping you going, and
then tie all of those tedious, little conscientious tasks to
that goal.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah, I think it really can be done. You really
can change that one dramatically. I went from like a
kidd in special Ed to Yale PhD. I mean, I
did so much studying at Carnegie when I was an
undergrad at carne Mill and I just would study like
eight nine hours a day, you know, really put in
the work and became you know, gritty was part of
(37:51):
my identity. Identity and quite frankly, I was featured in
Angela's book Grip. So really, yes, I will I'm that
Scott Barry Kaufman and book.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
There you go. And it was it because you became
really interested in what you were studying.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Well, I kept no matter, you know, at various points
being told I was stupid, told I was not going
to make anything of myself because of my intelligence. I
just kept showing grit at every turn. Wow, I just
think that grit is I'm a fan. I'm a fan.
I'm a fan of grit.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
You're your proof of the grit putting.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
I mean, just it's so important to not give up,
you know, and uh and yeah, and having a commitment
to something you love is in itself itself a good
you know, whether or not whatever happens about it, you know,
wherever the outcome is. I mean, just being passionate and
persevering is a good part of a good life. But
that's my view.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
So you so you were able to increase your well,
thank you. So you were able to keep increase your consciousness?
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (39:03):
So my mind was already really high and I didn't
work on increasing it, but I through kind of I
was able to describe, like how other people are able
to increase their conscientiousness, and it's it was almost always
because they had some bigger project or bigger mission that
(39:24):
they were working toward.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Yeah, isn't that interesting? Yeah? That how that can really
activate you? Yeah, you know those who have a why
can face anything? You as a new quote like that? Yeah,
that's wonderful. But with all this said, it is important
to no one to grit and to know when to quit.
(39:51):
So I think there's value in that and not being
you know, just just the same spirit which you can
change your personality, you can also change your alignment to
things right in your life, some things right? Is it
true that? Okay, let me ask this question. By you
changing your personality, did your goals change at all in life?
Speaker 3 (40:10):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (40:11):
So, one thing that I was struggling with when I
started this book is that I thought I wasn't sure
whether I wanted to have kids because I thought I
didn't have the right kind of personality to be a mom.
I thought moms had a very specific personality and that
I didn't have that. And this kind of gave me
(40:33):
the confidence to pull the trigger on that because I
kind of saw, first of all that moms have all
sorts of personalities and also that like a lot of
these traits that you think are just set in stone
and you're just like this and you'll never be able
to be different, they actually are a lot more flexible
than you think. And also people in our lives can
(40:57):
bring out traits in us that we didn't really realized
that we had. So my son has brought out a
lot of traits in me that I don't exhibit in
other areas of my life and that I never exhibited before.
Like I'm really not like a silly, like cutesy person,
and I'm silly and cutesy with him all day because
(41:17):
he brings it out with me because I love him
and I like love to you know, make him happy.
And yeah, so I I think it was just I mean,
I know that most people don't need to do a
giant research project to like know that like having a
kid changes you, but like I really did. I needed
that reassurance that like I could kind of like rise
(41:41):
to meet the challenge.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Nice. Nice, Yeah, that's that's uh, that's self empowerment right there.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
Yeah, yeah, I guess you could put it that way.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Yeah, maybe, thanks, this is your agree. A year ago,
you would not have said that said that so nicely.
Speaker 3 (42:01):
I don't know, I probably would have.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Okay, anything else you want to say about how things change,
because there is a whole literature on how when roles change,
personality can change. There's top down effects of environmental changes
that then change your personality organically, right like getting a
divorce getting a new partner can change.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Getting a new part I think the two that correct
me if I'm wrong on this, but I think the
two that I've seen that have been the most studied
is getting a job again that you're interested in. People
tend to become more conscientious. So you saw this with yourself,
but also, you know, other people see this all the
time when they finally, you know, go from high school
(42:46):
to you know, out in the working world and they
are doing whatever they're fired up about, they suddenly become
a lot more committed to it and have an increase
in conscientiousness. And then getting a partner that you love
can decrease neuroticism and increase agreeableness and have kind of
a beneficial effect on your personality. I also looked like extensively, extensively,
(43:10):
extensively into whether having a kid change changes your personality
and the upshot. There is that, yes, but everyone says
it changed them slightly differently, Like there's not like a
huge effect because everyone's like, well, it makes me more extrovert,
it made me less extroverted, it made me like more neurotic,
(43:31):
it made me less so so it's just so all
over the place.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
I hear you, I hear you. It kind of makes sense. Yeah,
different personality traits will probably predict how that will affect you.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
Yes, exactly, bet level, Well.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
How can you keep changing? How how can you really
take these principles and like how are you personally after
a year still keep it up on your transformations.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
So one thing I would try to keep in mind
is that you are not always going to feel like
doing the things that are beneficial for you and for
your personality. So what I really recommend to people is
to sign up for something that kind of is recurring
and keeps going without you having to schedule it. So
(44:22):
instead of being like, oh, yeah, I'm going to change
my personality, I'm gonna like text my friends every week
to see if they want to get drinks, I would
actually just like create a standing drinks thing every Wednesday
at whatever time at whatever bar and like invite people
to come every week or join an existing group like that,
(44:43):
because one thing that we fall into is kind of
like you kind of like don't do what's good for
you because you don't realize how good it will be
for you.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
And I really like I try to.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
Fight against that by like committing to certain things, like
I'm going to this play date on Saturday, I'm going
to do this on Sunday. And it's usually things that
have a like a standing commitment rather than me having
to like initiate every time, if that makes sense. So
I would just like sign up for activities that keep
(45:19):
going without you having to keep them going.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Yeah, I like that. What are you doing personally?
Speaker 1 (45:27):
So I have my mom's groups, I have my yoga.
I would not use me my life currently as a
model because new mom life is not very glamorous. But
I would try to experiment with what you have available,
you know, and everyone's gonna have different things available in
their community, Like you might not have an improv group,
(45:49):
but you might have a book club or some other
kind of club that you can join.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Okay, what about the extra version one. I feel like
people kind of have a biological set point. I feel
like it feels like pretty natural no matter how much
work you put in, like your biological kind of still
want to keep going back to that. We know there's
a happiness set point, you know, like are you feeling
that at all? Like are you feeling about the pole
(46:16):
of your old self at all? Ouga or have you
completely like upgraded your system.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Yeah, I definitely still feel the poll of my old self,
but I just kind of don't trust it as much.
I don't trust my old self, Like I don't trust
that like staying in bed all day or watching TV
all day will feel as good as I think it
will when I first come up with that idea. Like
for my birthday, I had a big play date with
(46:46):
like all my mom friends brought their toddlers and like
we all played in the park, and like leading up
to it, I was like, this is stupid. This isn't
going to be fun, Like this is dumb, this is
going to be too chaotic. Why am I doing this?
I really just want to watch TV all day? Like
and then it was like great, I mean it was
chaotic and like we didn't all get to talk because
we were chasing our kids and like, you know, kids
(47:08):
ate too much sugar and then they were like too hyper,
But it was, it was good. It was I'm glad
I did it that way, Like I'm happy that it
happened that way, even though you know, a million times
that morning I almost canceled.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Okay, fair enough. Well, thank you for being so vulnerable
and honest in your journey as a way to inspire others.
I don't feel like it was that vulnerable though, Like,
I don't feel like your journey was too crazy. Am
I missing anything that was too crazy?
Speaker 4 (47:41):
No?
Speaker 3 (47:42):
I think we covered everything good. Yeah, I don't think
there's anything else. Yeah, I would say that, like, uh oh,
if people.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
Want the like the og list of of challenges, Nate's
study is available on his website, It's Nathan Hudson and
dot com and then the study is you have to
follow through and that will have the full list of challenges.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
Absolutely, I'm having my students take those challenges in the fall.
Oh yeah, awesome, it's part of the course. Well, hey, Olga,
thank you so much for coming on again to my
podcast and all the best of the book tour for
this one.
Speaker 3 (48:23):
Yeah, thank you so much.
So narcissism would be associated with like low agreeableness. So
people who are narcissists and yeah, that's like a good
example is that they're like, oh, well, like I have
to look out for me because like no one else
is going to And our society kind of encourages this too,
Like we live in a kind of dogg eat dog society,
so you do kind of always think like, well, I
(00:21):
need to take care of myself, even at the expense
of other people.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we explore
the depths of human potential. Today, we have journalists and
author Olga Kazan on the show. Olga is a staff
writer for The Atlantic an author of multiple books, including
her latest one called Me But Better, The Science and
Promise of Personality Change. In this episode, we discuss Olga's
journey to change aspects of her personality based on the
(00:52):
latest scientific research on personality change. We also discuss why
antagonistic personality traits are so hard to check change, some
of the benefits of improving your personality, and practical ways
you can make real, long lasting changes to your personality
over time. So, without further ado, I bring you Oga
Kazon Oga, Welcome back to the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
And congrats in your new book, They but better the
science and promise of personality change. Now. I think what
a lot of people think of personality. They do think
of something that's set in stone. They're not aware of
all the nuanced, nerdy psychological debates between states and traits
and all that. Can you just give our audience an
idea of what is personality?
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So personality is the way most researchers define it is
the thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that come most naturally to you.
And though that sounds like it's something that wouldn't change
over time, if you think about it, it's also the
behaviors and the feelings that allow it to reach our goals.
(02:01):
So if you have a goal of making more friends,
or a goal of getting more organized, you know, or
a goal of I don't know, traveling the world, those
goals might require you to change some of those quote
unquote natural personality traits that you have. So it's sort
of it's what's within us, but it can also change
over time.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
So you don't take an essentialist approach to personality.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I don't I really feel like.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
We have the capacity to change if we want to,
and that's something that I found in working on the book,
and then what kind of some of the research shows
as well.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
So why did you decide to take on this year
long experiment? Obviously, thinking personality can change was a good
start in your mindset if you're going to go to
a whole year trying to change.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah, So I really was going through something when I started.
I was just really unhappy. So I've always had really
high levels of anxiety, and it was getting to a
point where it was really just like undermining my happiness levels.
Like nothing particularly bad would happen, but I just felt
(03:15):
just really anxious all the time about everything. And I also,
I mean COVID was sort of easing up around the
time that I started working on this, but my social
circle had really frayed during COVID and actually even before COVID,
and I kind of was going really long periods of
time without interacting with anyone, Like I was just kind
(03:35):
of like by myself all the time, and so I
wanted to kind of expand my social circle and deepen
my relationships. I also wanted to bring my anxiety and honestly,
depression levels down, and kind of the more I read
and researched, the more I saw that personality traits were
at the root of some of those experiences that I
(03:57):
was having.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Oh wow, well, thanks for being so honest about what
you're going through. Then I kind of want to just
skip to the punchline. Did it help? Did going through
this year process help? And then we'll fill in all
the details.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yeah, so it did help. In particular, my extraversion levels
went way up. I think I just realized that I
was not as introverted as I thought I was, and
I kind of learned some strategies for reaching out to
people that I hadn't been comfortable with before that. My
(04:34):
extraversion went up a lot, My agreeableness went up a
fair amount, and my neuroticism also went down a fair amount.
In particular, I became a lot less depressed. My anxiety
did go down some, but it was really in my
depression levels that I noticed a big decrease.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
It's really promising, and it suggests that therapy might alter
personality traits. Yeah, over the long run. So I think
it's very promising to hear there's some seminal research being
conducted by Nathan Hudson and colleagues. And there's this paper
from twenty eighteen called you have to follow Through Attaining
Behavioral Change Goals predict Voational Personality Change, and there's a
(05:19):
whole appendix of all these challenges that one can go through.
Can you talk a little bit about what challenges you did?
And you know, how did you set out to do
this for a year? What did you consult to do?
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Yeah, so Nate was one of the people I consulted.
So a big part of my book is based on
Nate's research, and so sort of what I did is
I looked at his study that you have to follow Through.
Basically what he did is he found a bunch of
I guess undergrads and he was like, do you want
to change your personality? And then they were like yes,
(05:54):
or among the ones that were like yes, it was
like okay, great, what personality trait do you want to change?
And you know, they would pick a personality trait that
they wanted to work on, and he would assign them
like challenges that had been pre written, and so if
they wanted to become more extroverted, he would kind of
have them say hi to people, or plan a lunch
(06:14):
with someone, you know, what have you. So I borrowed
from those challenges, but then I also kind of added
on my own challenges that we're challenging. So one of
them was actually doing improv. So I in addition to
kind of just reaching out to people and like scheduling
(06:35):
more lunches and more get togethers, I also signed up
for an improv class, which is not something that I
would normally do. I'm actually not a natural performer and
I don't like being on stage. And I'm also not
very silly except when I'm with my kid, and so
(06:55):
this is like a big leap for me. But I
kind of just wanted something where I would see the
same group of people over and over again, where I
had to be extroverted while I was doing it. I
couldn't just like withdraw into myself, and where it was
like a commitment device, like I couldn't back out, you know,
at the last minute. And so that's kind of where
the improv idea came from.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, I love that. I actually just got off a
call with Kelly Leonard from Second City. I'm working on
a project with Second City, and I just love improv.
So much, and we actually talked about you a bit
and I loved having you on this podcast, he said,
He's great. Yeah, so kind of yes, ending life is
a way of like, okay, let me phrase it this way.
(07:40):
Which personality trades do you think are most likely to
change if you yes? And life? I think open is
to experience the first one that comes in my head.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
But yeah, yeah, so the improv kind of like yes
and perspective. It definitely was so for me. I did
improv to increase extraversion, but I actually think it it
like worked on a number of different levels. Yeah, agreeableness too,
because like you really and honestly maybe a little bit
(08:09):
of like anxiety as well, because you really have to
become okay with letting go of control, Like you have
to kind of release, uh, this feeling that like you
have to be in charge of everything and you have
to dictate how everything goes because like you're just not
going to be able to with improv. It's other people
kind of running forward with their own ideas and you
(08:30):
have to like pivot around them. So I think it's
great for neuroticism. I think it's good for agreeableness because
you're just naturally kind of trying to get in tuned
with others, and that's kind of what you have to do, uh,
in order to be more agreeable in conversation is to
like kind of really listen to what other people are saying.
And yeah, definitely openness as well. I mean it just
(08:52):
makes you kind of like up for more things, because
once you've done improv you really can do anything.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Is that way? Yeah, it feels like you can handle
anything and turn it into something that maybe uh is
more aligned with you but doesn't negate the other person.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah, that's really cool. Okay, So the Big five personality model.
I teach personality psychology. I'm teaching a personality lab course
at Colombia this fall, as well as personality psychology lecture.
So let's do a little lecture for our listeners. There's yeah,
there's an extra version, introversion, right, conscientiousness. What's the other
(09:33):
poll described as.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Laziness, disinhibition or something.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, okay, oh that's interesting. That Okay, that I need
to process that agreeableness, disagreeableness or antagonism, uh, neuroticism and
emotionality yeah yeah, and then open to experience or and
then I guess closed mindedness. Yeah, so there's the Big five,
(09:59):
and then it's a hierarchy. So underneath the Big five,
there's two aspects of each Big five, and under that
there's facets. Under facets you have an infinite number of
so there's you know, we're not just talking about five.
But and then at the higher level, right, I'm sure
you came across the big two stability and plasticity.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Oh you know, I had not seen a lot of
discussion of stability versus plasticity, but I mean, definitely my
book kind of addresses more the plasticity side of that.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Yeah, that's true. That's true. Although I know I yes
to end that, but I kind of disagree with that.
I think you also really do cover stability when you
talk about reducing your depression levels. That's a big emotional
stability is a big part of the stability. Oh yeah, yeah,
so that too. Yeah, so I guess that was a
yes end Yeah, you did stability end plasticity. Anyway, AnyWho,
(10:54):
I wanted to just let our listeners know what the
map of the train is there, and let's just go
through each of the Big five and just tell us
about your journey. Do you mind do you mind if
we do that. Sure, yeah, let's play. Okay, so tell
me what I was like to dance like everyone is watching.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Yeah, So that was my subtitle for extroversion because that
is what extroverts like to do. So starting out, I
was very introverted. I scored extremely low on extroversion. And
the pushback that I normally get on this is that
I'm an introvert. I don't want to change because I
(11:33):
like being an introvert. And I read that Susan Kayne
book and now we don't feel like I ever have
to leave my house. And I look, I felt the
same way like I was, like, I'm an introvert. There's
nothing wrong with being an introvert. That's just how I am.
I will say that a lot of studies at this
point show that when you when introverts behave in an
(11:54):
extroverted way for a few minutes and normally that just
means socializing for a few minutes with other people, they
tend to feel happier. So they get a little bit
of a happiness boost from community, which makes sense. Like
if you if you think about, like all that we
know about what our needs are as humans, we have
to feel seen by others, and we have to feel
(12:16):
like we're part of something. So it's you know, it's
like COVID was so painful for so many people and
so and that's kind of what I found is that
I never felt like going. I hated going improv Like
almost the entire time, I always wanted to back out,
you know, never wanted to actually follow through on any
of these commitments. But when I would go and you know,
(12:38):
socialize for an hour, hour and a half, I always
felt a little bit happier. Like I always felt like,
you know, I got a little boost from social interaction
that I didn't get from basically any other activity reading,
you know, watching, scrolling social media, whatever else. And yeah,
I think that's like really the takeaway lesson there is
(12:59):
just that like even if you feel very introverted, it
can it can provide a big mood boost, and I
don't know, I think a big boost to your overall
happiness if you just make an effort to connect with
other people. Doesn't have to be with improv.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Of course, of course, and let's be clear about what
is introversion and what isn't an introversion. A lot of
people conflate social anxiety with introversion, and those aren't the
same things. So by improving by increasing your extraversion, we're
telling about what exactly.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, So extroversion has a couple different elements to it.
One is like just activity level. So honestly, just like
doing more activity is a form of extraversion. So even
if like you're going to a book club and you
don't talk that much at the book club, that still
counts as extraversion because extroverts just kind of like do
(13:57):
more stuff. And so that's really a good guiding principle
for introverts who are trying to get out there a
little bit more. They of course like feel like friendlier
and more cheerful when they're out and about, like they're
kind of their people people, you know. But I would
just start with the kind of general like getting out
of your house element.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah, interesting enough. And when you look at change goals,
you you don't see as many experts wanting to be
more introverted. You usually say, it's true, you know, for
some of these you there might be more of a
trend for more people to want to be in one
poll than the other, for all the Big five and
and for that one. Yeah, but but also I want
to make clear there are happy introverts. I've written about that,
(14:42):
and uh and a lot of that is acceptance of
your traits seems to moderate your I wrote an article
for scientif American and are their happy introverts? You know?
And yeah, there are, they exist and yeah. Yeah, but
if you want to change, you can, if you want to,
you know, have a little more flex ability in your
repertoire of social strategies. You know. There you go, and so, uh, well,
(15:07):
what's like one thing you do now that you a
year ago you would not have thought you'd see yourself doing.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Yeah, A big thing that changed for me.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
So I I should say, in the middle of writing
this book, I had a baby, and I'm really glad
I did this before I had a baby, because my
whole approach to like new motherhood changed. And what I
did was I joined these like new moms groups. Like
I've been really not aggressive that sounds weird, but like
(15:39):
active about trying to reach out to other new moms
and make connections with other new parents. And in a
way that I definitely would not have like before I
started working on this, like I would have. I'm not
really a joiner. I don't. I was like always the
last kid pick for kickball or whatever, Like I'm not
really like someone who likeways, clubs and groups. But I
(16:02):
just decided that this is going to be different and
that I was going to be part of these groups.
And that really has made such a huge difference in
my new motherhood, is just not being isolated and off
on my own and having a support network.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
That's a great example. Yeah, I think you're gonna see
something like dancing on tables and clubs or something, but.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I wish I just don't get to do that that
much because I have a sixteen month old.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Understood, Yeah, I understood. Yeah, Like I still liked your example,
but I was expecting thing really wild and racy. But anyway,
let's go to the next one. How about from overwhelm
to is that emotional stability yoga?
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah, so with emotional this was an interesting one because
basically all of the recommendations for reducing neuroticism, which neuroticism,
as you know, is like basically depression and anxiety. To
reduce those, the big recommendation is meditation, and people who
are highly anxious do not as a rule like meditation.
(17:09):
And I am among those people. I really have never
liked meditation. I have a really hard time with it.
I would almost be doing like like anything else in
the time that I'm meditating, and I did for this,
I took a class called MBSR where you have to
meditate for forty five minutes a day, and you also
(17:32):
have to sit in on these lectures that are like
basically like Buddhism for dummies, Like they just like walk
you through Buddhist concepts, and most of them I had
heard of already, and I was kind of like, this
is so dumb, This is like a weird waste of time,
like I would like look at Twitter and stuff like
I was just like, this is silly.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
But it worked.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
My neuroticism went down a lot after this class, and
I think it was maybe more do to these like
Buddhism for Dummies teachings than due to the meditation, although
I have no real way of knowing, because as some
of you might know, like a big part of meditation
is that you're not supposed to like try to like
(18:14):
clear your mind. You're supposed to just like be okay
with whatever comes up. But I kind of think that
the Buddhist teachings made more of an impression on me
than the meditation did.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah, I kind of resonate with that, especially with my ADHD. Yeah,
I find it really meditation would be really hard, but
it can also be really helpful. But do you think
you're do you kind of see yourself as a Buddhist?
Speaker 1 (18:44):
I do sometimes describe myself as a Buddhist. I think
my outlook on life is has become more Buddhist over
me too, just like so I So, I guess to
make a concrete example, I used to have a lot
of self blame when things would happen to me that
(19:06):
were not good, Like when bad things happen to me,
I would kind of blame myself a lot, even if
there was no way it was my fault, Like I
would just like an example, like I would if I
tried to throw an outdoor party and it rained that day,
I would get like really mad at myself. And so
something that like this class helped me understand is that
like a lot of the bad things that happen in life,
(19:28):
you can't control, and that blaming yourself for misfortune is
only kind of contributing to your own unhappiness. Like there's
no like, you don't get a bonus for blaming yourself
when something bad happens. It's only kind of a detriment.
And this is like known as like the double arrow concept.
(19:50):
But for me, for some reason, it was just really
nice to hear someone say that kind of outside my
own head. So I don't know, so that that's been
something that I've tried to kind of keep in mind.
It comes up a lot with having a kid. A
lot of stuff goes wrong and you're like, well, that happen.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
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for Human Potential dot com slash s a C. That's
Center for Human Potential dot Com slash s a C. Okay,
now back to the show. I could see that mentality
being a blend of the neuroticism as well as agreeableness.
I could see it. I could see it.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
I scored really low on agreeableness actually, so I don't know,
but maybe maybe to the extent that I am agreeable.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
I was like, kind of yeah, then.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
The source of it, yeah, So then the source of
it is more neuroticism, and well, to me, that's also
a self esteem issue which is tied to the neuroticism.
To mean will. Certainly, neuroticism is positively correlated with low
or self esteem. Yeah, and more self doubt is one
(22:11):
of the facets of neuroticism, so and rumination. So yeah, yeah,
h that makes a lot of sense. Anything else you
want to say about about your neuroticism journey before we
move on to another domain.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Yeah, So for this one, for people who really just
cannot stomach meditating, I would try to like introduce some
kind of mindfulness practice into your life. It doesn't have
to be just silent meditation. It can be like a
yoga class or even just like walking in nature while
like kind of not thinking about anything in particular has
(22:44):
been shown to be like a form of mindfulness that's beneficial.
So I would just try to do something that feels mindfulness. Ye,
even if it's not sitting down.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Good good, I could even yeah, I could just be
getting in the full state with the creative activity.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yeah exactly. Yeah, some people do like knitting or you know,
something with their hands.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Yeah, just reading a good book. Cool, Okay, So moving
move on to being down for whatever. Yes, are you
now exactly where you're at or whatever?
Speaker 1 (23:20):
So I was actually already really so I had two
big strengths coming into this. According to my personality test,
I was very high on openness and I was very conscientious,
So I did not really try to change my openness
level that much. I interviewed other people who had increased
their openness in various ways, and I experimented with some
(23:40):
of the like strategies that are often suggested for people
who want to increase on openness, so that these are
pretty obvious. It's like try a new, you know, form
of exercise. I tried surfing, you know, go on a
vacation to a new country. So I went to Portugal.
But the one that like where you know, the science
(24:03):
is really kind of new and is like really trippy
is psychedelics. So I interviewed some people who had a
lot of PTSD and from like various events in their
lives that had happened. And we might think of that
as like neuroticism, and I think there is a neurotic
component there. But for whatever reason, when they took MBMA
(24:29):
or another psychedelic it somehow like increased their level of openness.
Like that's what the study showed us was happening, Like
it boosted their openness levels and then the neuroticism kind
of came down in tandem with the increase in openness.
And it's still like not totally clear why that's beneficial,
(24:50):
Like why is it good to be open to new
things if you're trying to get rid of PTSD. But
the way one researcher explained it to me was sort
of that it helps you kind of imagine a different
way of thinking about the world, a different way of living.
So instead of being afraid all the time, you know,
what if the world is like mostly safe, what if
people are mostly good? And I think that might be
(25:13):
what was happening for these folks that I interviewed. But again,
I didn't personally try psychedelics for this. It was kind
of I looked at like the resource that was out
there and the people who participated in those studies.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Okay, fair enough, fair enough, Well I have and I
could say it definitely boosts openness to experience and love,
kind of sense of oneness for the world. Yeah, I
think is affected as well.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Yeah, people say they like, yeah, they feel like yeah,
oneness with the world, love less like yeah, like fear less,
less anxiety.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Yeah, yeah, good good stuff. Okay, even just I've done microdosing,
and that really you know, there's a whole research lettertron
the benefits of microdosing now as well, which is great.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
What are you microdose?
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Yeah, like five hundred milligrams of what? Oh psilocybin?
Speaker 4 (26:19):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Okay, yeah, yeah yeah. I mean it's not a big
a big dohase we're talking, you know, but you know,
even that can really kind of get you in a
more creative frame of mind less judgmental self self judge.
So maybe a lot lowers neuroticism too. Yeah, exactly what
anything else you want to talk about within the openness
(26:40):
to mean?
Speaker 1 (26:42):
No, I mean, obviously psychedelics are not like legal. They
can be really hard to access in a lot of places.
So I mean for people who kind of want to
dip their toe in, I would maybe try just like
a new, a totally new activity that's really outside your
comfort zone.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
So something like you I didn't typically do.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
It could be like rock climbing or solo travel or
something like that that's kind of pushing yourself a little
bit and is not not something you would typically enjoy.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Good. That's great advice, Great advice for those who want
to keep it legal. Okay, although people are trying to
change that right now. People are trying to lobby and
to show that there's a lot of scientific evidence coming
out on the benefits. Okay, how about agreeableness playing well
(27:32):
with others, but the opposite. I'm interested in antagonism too,
the dark dark triad. Did you come across the dark
triad in your research?
Speaker 3 (27:40):
I did.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
I had a whole section about the dark triad, but
I cut it because it was like things were spiraling.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah, and that's narcissism, Machaveelianism, and psychopathy. Did you come
across my light triad?
Speaker 3 (27:55):
I did not come across. What is the light triad?
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Contuinism not using people as I mean, to an end,
but treating people an end to themselves. Humanism, treating every
individual dignity and respect and faith in humanity, believing in
the fundamental goodness of humans. It's a more recent research
program than my colleagues and I have initiated just the
past five six years ago. That's a lot of research
is coming out about it.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Yeah, that sounds like a Unitarian universalism. Those are like, well,
my husband is that religion?
Speaker 3 (28:24):
And yeah, loving one.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Another, that's right, that's right. That's right. So agreeableness disagreeableness.
But here's one big one, Nathan, big big question I
have for you. Nathan Hudson has found that it's really
hard to change antagonism. That the whole to mean agreeableness antagonism.
It's hard to change. And it's not like there's a
lot of agreeable people who want to be more antagonistic.
(28:51):
But the other end is true too, there's not an
awful lot of antagonistic people who want to be more agreeable.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
So that's right.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
What do you make of this?
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Yeah, so agreeableness is one of the ones that's hardest
to change. Not a lot of people want to change it,
and if they try, it's like very difficult. I also
found it very difficult. I scored low on agreeableness, and
it like went up slightly, but it was like I
did so much and it was like very hard. So
(29:21):
a lot of the tasks for agreeableness is like thinking
about the people who piss you off in a more
positive way, or like thinking about like mean stuff that
people have said to you, and like what might have
been going on in their lives that would have prompted
them to do that. Like some people get sweaty even
like thinking about that. Like it's it's a very difficult
(29:41):
thing to like think positively about people you truly dislike.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
And I kind of noticed this.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
So one of the things that I did for agreeableness
is I took an anger management class and there was
a guy in the class who, like, God bless him
for being honest, but he was just like like they
were like, now imagine, like like they were like building
a bridge for like all of your enemies to like
(30:08):
come over and like join you or something, and he
was like, I want to build a bridge and invite
all my enemies on it and light the bridge on fire.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Like like I was like, you know, like I feel like.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
That's like a much more natural response than like whatever
they're asking us to do. But it's like it was
funny because like every single thing they asked us to
like imagine or like picture, he was like, no way,
Like I hate that person, and I like that is
kind of what you're asking. It's like it's like very
very hard to think more positively about people you don't like.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
It's so true are agreeable people. People are very high agreeableness,
and they more likely to invite all those people on
their boat.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yeah, so like the basically the goal of the anger
management class is like a lot of the agreeableness and
boosting tasks. And the people who you know who are
very agreeable, like these are you know, people are like
just drawn to them, Like they have a ton of friends.
They have like the BFFs from the time they were five.
They are like really close with their families. They like
(31:12):
make friends wherever they go. Everyone likes them. They're described
as like a total sweetheart, like you know, like usually
it's more common among women for them to be high
in agreeableness than men.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
And I just never have had that description applied to me,
Like I yeah, I just like people don't describe me
that way, and it has always kind of bothered me,
like like me better.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
And so that's kind of what I set out to do.
But it is it is really challenging and it can
you know, and you have to find the balance between
being a people pleaser and just being really nice if
you're going to try to boost agreeableness, because where people
like the reason they don't want to increase it is
because they think that it's going to make them into
a pushover.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
So yeah, that's true. That's very true. They don't see
it as a weakness. I see there, It is a
strength exactly. Yeah, I think with narcissism. Do you talk
about narcisism in your book?
Speaker 3 (32:13):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
I don't get into it. But yeah, so narcissism would
be associated with like low agreeableness. So people who are
narcissists and yeah, that's like a good example is that
they're like, oh, well, like I have to look out
for me because like no one else is going to
And our society kind of encourages this too, Like we
live in a kind of dogg eat dog society, so
you do kind of always think like, well, I need
(32:37):
to take care of myself, even at the expense of
other people.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yeah, there's our research finds there's two different types of narcissists.
Well there's more than two, but two main ones are
there's the extroverted narcissist and there's the neurotic narcissist. The
neurotic narcissist tends to it's called vulnerable narcissism. They tend
to feel entitlement due to their fragility, not superiority, whereas
(33:02):
grandiose narcissists tend to be very extroverted and just feel
superior to everyone. Do you want to move on? Are
you anything else you want to say?
Speaker 3 (33:10):
So agreeableness, I would say the.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Most yeah, did you change? I'm I did?
Speaker 3 (33:15):
I did?
Speaker 1 (33:15):
I did increase in agreeableness, And I would say the
most effective way to do it was.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
I went to this.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Conversation workshop and learned strategies for having more meaningful conversations.
And it's it's expensive and not everyone wants to go
to London and like do this weird thing that I did.
But using some of the strategies from that workshop in
that section of the book, I think will help helps
boost agreeableness and helps boost your ability to connect with
(33:47):
other people without like, you know, becoming like.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
A pushover or whatever. People are afraid of.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Cool. So what what what percentage when you say you're
at right now sixty percent? I think you're you're above
average of greableness now, but not extreme.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I would say I'm above average, but it's because I
have a kid and I have to always be patient
and kind to him, even when he's headbutting me in
the face and pulling my hair.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
It's really true, That's really true. Yes, Okay, fair enough's
let's move on to the go getters. How about that?
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Yeah, conscientiousness, the gritty ones, they're gritty. Angela Duckworth loves conscientiousness.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
She does.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Yeah, she's great. I actually talked with you for the book.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
So conscientiousness was another one that I was high on.
And so it's mostly interviews with other people who increased
in conscientiousness and with people like Angela who study how
to increase conscientiousness. And uh, this is another one where
people who are low in it don't know how to
get higher, Like they're just like, I don't get how
(34:56):
you do this, Like what what's the secret sauce? And
so it could look like forgetting where you left things,
forgetting appointments, being late all the time, being just like disorganized.
And I get it because I used to be like that,
but I somehow just like got my shit together in
my like late twenties and yeah, and so I try
(35:21):
to kind of walk people through how I did that
and how other people have done.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
That help come on through.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Okay, So a big thing that I noticed is that
people rarely become more conscientious if it's just like because
they want to, Like, it's rarely like a goal unto itself,
it's usually helping them achieve something else. So the people
that I interviewed that really became more conscientious, Like they
went from like never studying for tests to like acing
(35:50):
everything or forgetting like basically not doing anything all day
to like having a million calendars and like getting a
ton of tasks done. It's when they were doing something
that was truly important to them. So one woman really
wanted to start a business, and it was like she
was going to be like a freelance copywriter and she
(36:12):
just had to keep track of all of her clients
and all of her you know, deliverables and things. And
so she like had this giant whiteboard that she would
write everything on and came up with this like calendar
system and time boxing and all this stuff. But when
she wasn't passionate about what she was doing, like before
that she worked in a hair salon, which she wasn't
really that interested in. She never did that stuff like
(36:33):
it wasn't part of her personality. It's just these skills
that she learned because she wanted to achieve this goal.
And the same with Zach Cambrick, who's the guy who
became like a straight a student. He's actually a psychologist
as well now, but he started out never having written
a paper, never studying for tests, and he just decided, like,
(36:55):
I want to be an academic psychologist. I'm this guy
from like Nowheersville, Virginia, and I want to like make
something of myself. And that's really when he started studying
and like you know, using flashcards and reading a book
called like how to make A's or whatever is because
he had a goal that was important to him. So
I would just focus on whatever goal is kind of
(37:17):
overarching for you and that is keeping you going, and
then tie all of those tedious, little conscientious tasks to
that goal.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah, I think it really can be done. You really
can change that one dramatically. I went from like a
kidd in special Ed to Yale PhD. I mean, I
did so much studying at Carnegie when I was an
undergrad at carne Mill and I just would study like
eight nine hours a day, you know, really put in
the work and became you know, gritty was part of
(37:51):
my identity. Identity and quite frankly, I was featured in
Angela's book Grip. So really, yes, I will I'm that
Scott Barry Kaufman and book.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
There you go. And it was it because you became
really interested in what you were studying.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Well, I kept no matter, you know, at various points
being told I was stupid, told I was not going
to make anything of myself because of my intelligence. I
just kept showing grit at every turn. Wow, I just
think that grit is I'm a fan. I'm a fan.
I'm a fan of grit.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
You're your proof of the grit putting.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
I mean, just it's so important to not give up,
you know, and uh and yeah, and having a commitment
to something you love is in itself itself a good
you know, whether or not whatever happens about it, you know,
wherever the outcome is. I mean, just being passionate and
persevering is a good part of a good life. But
that's my view.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
So you so you were able to increase your well,
thank you. So you were able to keep increase your consciousness?
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (39:03):
So my mind was already really high and I didn't
work on increasing it, but I through kind of I
was able to describe, like how other people are able
to increase their conscientiousness, and it's it was almost always
because they had some bigger project or bigger mission that
(39:24):
they were working toward.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Yeah, isn't that interesting? Yeah? That how that can really
activate you? Yeah, you know those who have a why
can face anything? You as a new quote like that? Yeah,
that's wonderful. But with all this said, it is important
to no one to grit and to know when to quit.
(39:51):
So I think there's value in that and not being
you know, just just the same spirit which you can
change your personality, you can also change your alignment to
things right in your life, some things right? Is it
true that? Okay, let me ask this question. By you
changing your personality, did your goals change at all in life?
Speaker 3 (40:10):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (40:11):
So, one thing that I was struggling with when I
started this book is that I thought I wasn't sure
whether I wanted to have kids because I thought I
didn't have the right kind of personality to be a mom.
I thought moms had a very specific personality and that
I didn't have that. And this kind of gave me
(40:33):
the confidence to pull the trigger on that because I
kind of saw, first of all that moms have all
sorts of personalities and also that like a lot of
these traits that you think are just set in stone
and you're just like this and you'll never be able
to be different, they actually are a lot more flexible
than you think. And also people in our lives can
(40:57):
bring out traits in us that we didn't really realized
that we had. So my son has brought out a
lot of traits in me that I don't exhibit in
other areas of my life and that I never exhibited before.
Like I'm really not like a silly, like cutesy person,
and I'm silly and cutesy with him all day because
(41:17):
he brings it out with me because I love him
and I like love to you know, make him happy.
And yeah, so I I think it was just I mean,
I know that most people don't need to do a
giant research project to like know that like having a
kid changes you, but like I really did. I needed
that reassurance that like I could kind of like rise
(41:41):
to meet the challenge.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Nice. Nice, Yeah, that's that's uh, that's self empowerment right there.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
Yeah, yeah, I guess you could put it that way.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Yeah, maybe, thanks, this is your agree. A year ago,
you would not have said that said that so nicely.
Speaker 3 (42:01):
I don't know, I probably would have.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Okay, anything else you want to say about how things change,
because there is a whole literature on how when roles change,
personality can change. There's top down effects of environmental changes
that then change your personality organically, right like getting a
divorce getting a new partner can change.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Getting a new part I think the two that correct
me if I'm wrong on this, but I think the
two that I've seen that have been the most studied
is getting a job again that you're interested in. People
tend to become more conscientious. So you saw this with yourself,
but also, you know, other people see this all the
time when they finally, you know, go from high school
(42:46):
to you know, out in the working world and they
are doing whatever they're fired up about, they suddenly become
a lot more committed to it and have an increase
in conscientiousness. And then getting a partner that you love
can decrease neuroticism and increase agreeableness and have kind of
a beneficial effect on your personality. I also looked like extensively, extensively,
(43:10):
extensively into whether having a kid change changes your personality
and the upshot. There is that, yes, but everyone says
it changed them slightly differently, Like there's not like a
huge effect because everyone's like, well, it makes me more extrovert,
it made me less extroverted, it made me like more neurotic,
(43:31):
it made me less so so it's just so all
over the place.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
I hear you, I hear you. It kind of makes sense. Yeah,
different personality traits will probably predict how that will affect you.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
Yes, exactly, bet level, Well.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
How can you keep changing? How how can you really
take these principles and like how are you personally after
a year still keep it up on your transformations.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
So one thing I would try to keep in mind
is that you are not always going to feel like
doing the things that are beneficial for you and for
your personality. So what I really recommend to people is
to sign up for something that kind of is recurring
and keeps going without you having to schedule it. So
(44:22):
instead of being like, oh, yeah, I'm going to change
my personality, I'm gonna like text my friends every week
to see if they want to get drinks, I would
actually just like create a standing drinks thing every Wednesday
at whatever time at whatever bar and like invite people
to come every week or join an existing group like that,
(44:43):
because one thing that we fall into is kind of
like you kind of like don't do what's good for
you because you don't realize how good it will be
for you.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
And I really like I try to.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
Fight against that by like committing to certain things, like
I'm going to this play date on Saturday, I'm going
to do this on Sunday. And it's usually things that
have a like a standing commitment rather than me having
to like initiate every time, if that makes sense. So
I would just like sign up for activities that keep
(45:19):
going without you having to keep them going.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Yeah, I like that. What are you doing personally?
Speaker 1 (45:27):
So I have my mom's groups, I have my yoga.
I would not use me my life currently as a
model because new mom life is not very glamorous. But
I would try to experiment with what you have available,
you know, and everyone's gonna have different things available in
their community, Like you might not have an improv group,
(45:49):
but you might have a book club or some other
kind of club that you can join.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Okay, what about the extra version one. I feel like
people kind of have a biological set point. I feel
like it feels like pretty natural no matter how much
work you put in, like your biological kind of still
want to keep going back to that. We know there's
a happiness set point, you know, like are you feeling
that at all? Like are you feeling about the pole
(46:16):
of your old self at all? Ouga or have you
completely like upgraded your system.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Yeah, I definitely still feel the poll of my old self,
but I just kind of don't trust it as much.
I don't trust my old self, Like I don't trust
that like staying in bed all day or watching TV
all day will feel as good as I think it
will when I first come up with that idea. Like
for my birthday, I had a big play date with
(46:46):
like all my mom friends brought their toddlers and like
we all played in the park, and like leading up
to it, I was like, this is stupid. This isn't
going to be fun, Like this is dumb, this is
going to be too chaotic. Why am I doing this?
I really just want to watch TV all day? Like
and then it was like great, I mean it was
chaotic and like we didn't all get to talk because
we were chasing our kids and like, you know, kids
(47:08):
ate too much sugar and then they were like too hyper,
But it was, it was good. It was I'm glad
I did it that way, Like I'm happy that it
happened that way, even though you know, a million times
that morning I almost canceled.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Okay, fair enough. Well, thank you for being so vulnerable
and honest in your journey as a way to inspire others.
I don't feel like it was that vulnerable though, Like,
I don't feel like your journey was too crazy. Am
I missing anything that was too crazy?
Speaker 4 (47:41):
No?
Speaker 3 (47:42):
I think we covered everything good. Yeah, I don't think
there's anything else. Yeah, I would say that, like, uh oh,
if people.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
Want the like the og list of of challenges, Nate's
study is available on his website, It's Nathan Hudson and
dot com and then the study is you have to
follow through and that will have the full list of challenges.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
Absolutely, I'm having my students take those challenges in the fall.
Oh yeah, awesome, it's part of the course. Well, hey, Olga,
thank you so much for coming on again to my
podcast and all the best of the book tour for
this one.
Speaker 3 (48:23):
Yeah, thank you so much.
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