December 4, 2025 • 46 mins
After 11 years, 478 episodes, and countless conversations exploring the depths of human potential, this episode marks the final chapter of The Psychology Podcast in its current form.
In this deeply meaningful farewell episode for Scott, he sits down with acclaimed science writer Annie Murphy Paul — fittingly, the very first guest ever featured on the show back in 2014. Together, they reflect on the podcast’s evolution, its mission, and the major themes that have shaped more than a decade of inquiry into what it means to be fully human.
Scott opens up about why he’s choosing to step away: to recenter, recharge, and make space for his own continued growth. He discusses how the podcast landscape has transformed since he launched the show at a time when psychology podcasts were virtually nonexistent, and shares what he hopes listeners will carry forward from this body of work.
This episode explores the seven core insights Scott has gleaned from hosting the show — themes that have come to define its spirit:
• Being over doing
• Creativity over efficiency
• Self-actualization over achievement
• Deep fulfillment over temporary happiness
• Self-transcendence over self-enhancement
… along with lessons about meaning, compassion, and human possibility.With honesty and gratitude, Scott takes a moment to thank the listeners who have supported the show since its inception — a community that made this journey possible week after week, year after year. If you get a chance, please leave a comment telling Scott what the show has meant to you. He would love to hear from you!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi, everyone, Welcome to episode four hundred and seventy eight
of The Psychology Podcast. This is a very special episode,
well since it's my last one in this form. I've
been podcasting for eleven years now, practically every single week,
and truth is, while I love everything I've learned along
the way, I want to take this time to recenter,
(00:25):
to continue bringing additive value to my audience, and to
recharge myself. When I started this podcast November sixteenth, twenty fourteen,
there weren't many psychology podcasts in existence, if any. I
was driven by my intrinsic passion for the field of
psychology and wanted to put a microphone on the amazing
psychological scientists I knew and shine a spotlight on their
(00:45):
important work and how it applies to the lives of everyone.
Far too often, good scientific research hides in the shadows
in peer reviewed publications, and I wanted to get the
word out there about all the incredible work going on.
Now it's twenty twenty five and everyone in their mother
has a podcast, and there are so many wonderful psychology
related podcasts in existence now, which is great. So I've
(01:07):
decided to take a step back. In this episode, I
am interviewed by the acclaimed science writer and author Annie
Murphy Paul about the major lessons I've learned over the
years doing this podcast. I think the seven major themes
we discuss really do a great job capturing the essence
of this podcast, which has always been more about being
than doing. Creativity over efficiency, self actualization over achievement, deep
(01:31):
fulfillment over fleeting feelings of happiness, and self transcendence over
self enhancement. Thanks from the bottom of my heart to
all of you for making this podcast possible and for
your support over the years. If you feel called, please
write a review on iTunes or wherever to let me
know what the show has meant to you. I wish
you all the very best in your own sacred journey
(01:52):
of self actualization and self transcendence, and look forward to
sharing with you all the next steps in my own
journey when it's time. As Michila Cole so eloquently put it,
do not be afraid to disappear from it from us
for a while and see what comes to you in
the silence. So, without further ado, I bring you Annie
Murphy Paul and the seven biggest insights I've gleaned from
(02:15):
doing this podcast, The Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Scott the Man of the Hour.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
How are you doing, Annie Murphy, Paul Woo. This is
episode four hundred and seventy seven of the Psychology Podcast.
You were on episode one Yesogy Podcast in November sixteen
of twenty fourteen.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Wow, So how much has changed since then? Right?
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yeah? Yeah, A lot, A lot has changed, it a
lot has not changed. I real listened to our episode
and I was like, well, it still holds, It's still
it's great. You did great the science of growing smarter
and that and maintaining you know, high expectations. It was
(03:06):
really good.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Yeah. Huh, Well you've certainly grown and grown smarter probably
in the eleven years since then. Right, it's certain knowledgeable.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Maybe my fluid intelligence has decreased my processing speed, but
my crystallized intelligence has increased for sure my wisdom.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah. Well, before we get into the seven insights that
you've sort of pulled together from your eleven years of
posting the Psychology Podcast, I just want to ask you, like,
how are you feeling about this project, this long, long
running project coming to an end.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
I feel really proud of the the rich content that
I was able to record that will last forever, you know,
as long as we have digital and humanity. Yeah. I
really this was a really meaningful personal project of mine
that started by me just wanting to put the microphone
(04:11):
on my colleagues at Penn UH and then, you know,
one of some of my first guests was it was you.
We had Angela Duckworth as one of my first guests,
and you know, I just sort of one of my
went to my friends at Penn and I was like, Hey,
I would love to feature your research. I would really
love to get the word out there about what you're doing.
It's so awesome. It really come from you know, came
(04:33):
from this place of a real intrinsic passion for the
field of psychology. And I didn't really see anything like
that at the time in the podcast area.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah, you were early. You were early in the podcasting game.
Now every now everyone has a podcast, and it's true,
like it's it's too it's too common, it's too popular.
I'm getting out.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
It's true.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I'd like to know what you're doing next, because you're obviously,
you know, on the cutting edge.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Thanks, Well, what whatever I do next is will be
something next level and it'll be something even better than
the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Okay, well, let's let's start our look back at what
you feel like you've learned by talking to all these
incredible researchers across eleven years. And one of them, one
of the points that you pulled out is certainly not
something that you learned on the Psychology podcast, because I
know you were working in this area well before that.
(05:32):
One of the seven insights that you pulled out of
your your eleven years of doing this podcast, Scott, is
that human potential is far broader than standard metrics of
IQ or achievement. And I know that's a theme of
your work and you're thinking for many years, how did
how did that play out in the conversations you had
(05:53):
on the podcast?
Speaker 1 (05:55):
I think this that's definitely a major theme. Human potential
is something that I view as not tied up with
your intelligence necessary as a sole factor. And I certainly
don't think that the extent to which we're achieving human
potential is the extent to which we're achieving based on
standard metrics of success, you know, like achievement being you
(06:19):
have to get accolades or likes on Instagram, you know,
in order to really feel like you're achieving your human potential.
I think a lot of people feel these days like
they're not they're not maximizing their potential if they're not
getting enough as attention as the next person on social media.
And you know, my whole career has really been trying
(06:39):
to expand our notions of what intelligence means as well
what it means to be smart and include the whole
a lot of things in the NEU diversity spectrum.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
You know, can you remember a particular conversation with a
researcher that brought that out, that point out for you?
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Oh boy, you know, I'm going through my head that
we're almost five hundred episodes. Yeah, you were for the
first one in talking about how to be smarter and
and your your ideas are smart weren't necessarily tied to IQ.
But I'm also just thinking about my own research and
I did the Human Potential Lab was a little series
(07:22):
within the psychology podcast I did, and I talked about
I did a little lecture on IQ and intelligence and
how we need to kind of go beyond the standard metrics. Yeah,
so that's as it's been a common theme and that
I've tried to interject into almost all my interviews.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yes, yes, yes, Well this next point is one that's
dear to my heart because you know, I wrote a
book about personality testing, the Culture Personality that was a
cultural history and scientific critique of personality testing. And your
point here is that personality traits are not fit at
(08:00):
transformation is possible and meaningful, and you've done work, some
of your own work is in the area of personality,
am I right?
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yeah, absolutely so. I really like the newer way of
we're kind of thinking about personality traits and variation like
as density distributions. So all of us really go throughout
the day being all sorts of different levels of a
personality trait. So to say you're an introvert doesn't mean
that you're an introvert twenty four to seven, right, you know,
(08:33):
you have your extroverted moments. These are personality really is
just your habitual patterns of states, you know. Traits are
just habitual patterns of states. You know. But you can
change your personality by changing your habitual pattern of states.
And that's the thing I want to make very clear
to people. And there there's some really exciting personality intervention research.
(08:57):
I'm doing it right, now with my students at our
college personality lecture, where I have them choose a particular
Big Five personality trait they want to change, and I
have them use some of these scientific validated interventions to
do a whole bunch of actions to try to change them.
Interesting enough, the one that the trait that easiest to
(09:17):
change is neuroticism. Yes, I'm surprised.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I might have thought it would be introversion that you could.
You could sort of just change your way of interacting
with people and push yourself to get out there a
little bit more and end up being more extroverted.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
But maybe a different way of phrasing it in terms
of the easiest to change is that you see the
largest effects over time. Interesting, people can There are lot
of things people can do to reduce their anxiety in
life and to be more emotionally stable and have emotional
regulation techniques. So things like meditation, reframe, cognitive reframing, cognitive reappraisal, distancing,
(10:00):
imagining to yourself in a moment, well, you know, fifty years,
will this matter? You know? The help said I'm getting
right now, you know. So there's a bunch of things there.
But the hardest trait I think this is interesting. The
hardest trait that we've found to really change in the
long run, and that don't really have such large effects
with these interventions is the trade openness to experience, which
(10:22):
I think is the trait that's most related to creativity
and human flourishing.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
What do you have any ideas, Scott about why that
might be so difficult to change?
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Well, I don't think part of that is that psychologists
really haven't really done a great job coming up with
the right activities and actions to really move the needle
on that. We are much clearer on what you need
to do. If you want to be more extroverted, or
be more emotionally stable, more conscientiousness, more conscientious conscientious, I
should say yes, And then you know if you want
(10:58):
to be more agreeable or more well, so a lot
of my students want a lot of people want to
be less agreeable. That's another thing than a lot of
people might want because they're too much what people please are.
So it depends on whatever direction you want to go
there on that trade. But openness to experience is such
a broad trait that it's one that I've studied a
long time in my career and includes not only intellectual curiosity,
(11:21):
but deep appreciation of the arts and music and being
able to get deeply absorbed in what you're doing and
associated with creativity. It's the number one best predictor of creativity,
So it'd be important if we could figure out ways
of teaching it. But I don't think the name was
really nailed it yet.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Yeah. Interesting, Well let me ask you, Scott, do you
think your pattern of personality traits has changed it all
across eleven years of Oh?
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Absolutely, yeah, I've definitely become less agreeable.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Really?
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Oh yeah that?
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Or how is that? Why? And how?
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I mean? I listened to some of my earlier relistening
to my episode with you, you know, I was like a
little lap dog, you know. Oh lady, you're amazing.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
You know.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
It's like, you know, I don't know. It's just like
I don't I don't feel the need to like appease
people so much anymore. I really am very connected to
who I am, and I feel like I know who myself.
I know myself a lot better than I did eleven
years ago, and I don't really need other people to
tell me who I am. Hill. I want to take
(12:33):
a moment to make a few important announcements that I'm
really excited about. As you all know, I'm committed to
helping people self actualize. In the service of that, I
just had a new book come out called Rise Above.
Overcome a victim mindset, empower yourself and realize your full potential.
In this book, I offer a science backed toolkit to
help you overcome your living beliefs and take control of
(12:56):
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(13:18):
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(13:39):
slash SAC. That's Center for Human Potential dot com slash sac. Okay,
now back to the show.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
So in your case, becoming a little less agreeable has
been a good thing.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
It sounds like been a very good thing. It's been
a very good thing, and U you know, but not
so much that, you know, one becomes an asshole, and
important not to not to reduce it too much. Some
people when they have this like no or mister nice
guy attitude and then they kind of got the extreme
and that's everyone can tell that they've overcompensated, you know,
(14:13):
just there's you know, there's just a good Carl Rogers
put it so well in one of his quotes. He said,
it's not about being more than you are. It's not
about being less than you are, you know, being self effacing.
It's not about being more than you are and puffing
yourself up, you know. It's about really getting in touch
with who you truly are and really being comfortable with it. So, yeah,
I think I've become more comfortable in my own skin probably.
(14:34):
M hm.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yes, we love Carl Rogers, don't we. What's the I
was grasping for one of his famous phrases at one
time talking to you, and you knew it by heart,
the one.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
About the curious paradox.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, can you say.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
The paradox is that once we accept who we are,
then we can then we can change right right?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yes, I love that. I find that to be very true. Well,
what you said about how personality traits are really a
pattern of states that we often occupy leads us into
another point that you've drawn out of your eleven years
of hosting the Psychology podcast, which is long lasting. Meaningful
(15:16):
change often depends on habits, systems, and repeated behaviors. Yes,
what's your what's your what's your thinking about that?
Speaker 1 (15:28):
And we have had some really world class people on
the show. We've talked about that over the years, like
art Markmen talked about very early on and how to
change your habits. Yeah. I've had James Clear on my podcast,
you know, who's definitely bowling up. A lot of people
after appearing on my podcast have blown up.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Yes, it's funny, isn't it. Yeah?
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Curious curious?
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
I had Tim Farrison in the early days and he
was really uh, he really talked about how he creates
very systematic habits, and so is there there is something
I've learned from a lot of my guests who are
maybe a different kind of personality than me, There's something
I still learn from them. I'm more I fall more
(16:14):
in kind of the dreamy, you know, openness to experience
camp day dreamer. But there's something to be said and
a lot to be learned from the kind of personality
of the very like you know, rigid consistency. You know,
they're obsessed with consistency. They're obsessed with results and quantifying
themselves and and and I think that if you do
(16:37):
want to make long lasting changes, it's good to have
a plan. I think that is very good. I've I've
discovered that to be very beneficial in personal life. It's
good to know when you're where, when you're making progress,
and have these kind of smart goals as are called.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah, can you think of a habit that you work
to change, you know, over the past eleven years?
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Oh, that was a great question. Well, exercise has been
something I've gotten into, especially living in LA Yeah. Yeah,
that's the only way to date in LA is to
look good, whereas in New York it's they care about
my brain. There's a very very clear difference between dating
(17:21):
and New York in LA. But you didn't come on
the Psychology podcast to talk about my dating life.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
But I'm wondering what worked for you in terms of
making exercise a regular habit.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
It's fun, it's it, you know, it feels good too.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Intrinsic motivation.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yeah, I mean it feels it feels like you're conquering something,
even if you don't conquer anything else that day. You know,
if you get up, I get up the usually work
up with the out in the morning, and then I'm like,
you know what, I don't need to do anything else today,
Like I did something today. I mean, of course, I
there's other things I need to do, but I'm saying,
you know, at least I conquered one, one small thing today.
It feels good to be healthy and to feel vital
(18:01):
and alive in terms of habits and personality. It's it's
a really interesting question, Like eleven years is kind of
flashing before my eyes. I think I've just really chilled
out a lot. And it might have been a lot
of the old marijuana I did in Santa Monica on
(18:23):
the beach.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
But less anxious, you would say, or less sex. I'm so.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
I think I've lowered my neurotensis levels maybe fifty percent
since two thousand and fourteen, Yes, since I started. Absolutely.
I mean when I moved in Philadelphia the time at
Penned and I would I would just walk around in
the state of constant anxiety and panic attacks, and you know,
I it's very the idea of a panic attack is
so far into me now, and it feels so far away.
(18:54):
It doesn't feel like I when we put this way,
it feels like I really can nip things a bud
more emotionally. Things don't pile downward automatically anymore like they
used to. And yeah, that was a big change.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yeah, I feel that I've seen that change in knowing
you Scott that year.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Way more chill now, Yeah, yeah, let's worried about things,
more kind of gone with the flow.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yeah, well that's true. I mean I might even say
that I'm pretty emotionally stable now I wouldn't, you know,
even I wouldn't even say I'm neurotic anymore, which is fascinating. Yeah, yeah,
concerning that, that was a big part of my identity
for so many years.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yeah, yeah, was there something there that was especially helpful.
Do you meditate, do you well?
Speaker 1 (19:39):
I do think living in California for five years and yeah,
getting you at meditation and living in such a chill
environment helped. Coming back to New York is an interesting
experience for me.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
But you really perceive a lot of differences between us
two places.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Huh, they're Mignight and day Scott.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
I want to talk. I want to turn to another
point that you've drawn from your eleven years of hosting
the Psychology podcast. That is, I know, very near and
dear to your heart, which is creativity and this idea
that creativity is a really vital dimension of human flourishing.
And it's been such a consistent thread in your work,
(20:25):
you know, and your thinking. And I wonder why if
you could talk a little bit about why you feel
creativity is so important and so valuable.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
I think creativity is everything you know to be able
to bring into existence things that have not existed before.
We do that automatically just by existing. And I think
to be alive is a creative experience. And well, freyd
(20:53):
said love and work, work and love for the cornerstones
of humanness. I think think work is a corner stone
of humans think creativity is. I think it's if I
may modify Freud, I think it's love and creativity. Love
and creativity are are the things to live to live
a good life, you know, feeling love for an activity
(21:17):
or doing or for a human you know, but really
having that that sense of aliveness usually is correlated with
a sense of you're creating things of value in the world.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
What I like about your approach to creativity is that
you don't seem to feel that it's restricted to you know,
artists or writers or musicians, but that all of us
humans are creative in a sense. Do you agree with that?
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yes, I don't think creativity is limited to a particular
field of study. There might be some fields where we
don't want intense creativity, like pilots but or tax accountants.
But nevertheless, if we do view creativity as divergent thinking
and the ability to come up with lots of solutions
(22:11):
to a problem, maybe we do want that everywhere. We
want the potential the ability for divergent thinking, not just
convergent thinking, which is the ability to come up with
a one right answer, and also with divert thinking, a
lot of a big part of diversion thinking is being
able to come up with the problem in the first place,
(22:32):
knowing what, being able to see that there's a problem.
There are a lot of problems that people don't even
see as problems.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Wow, that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
I do think creative people are very good at at.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Picking up identifying problems.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Yes, Steve Jobs was good at that.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah. Yeah. Do you did you feel that putting together
your podcast was a creative endeavor?
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Oh? Absolutely, we set first. I mean it was such
a a new thing in the podcast space, right, you know.
I mean there was a there was a period of
years where it felt very fresh and it felt very
something special. You know. Now, like you said, everyone and
(23:15):
their mother has a podcast, and psychology content is everyone's
a psychologist. I mean, I see so many people who
are just so much more famous than I am on Instagram,
who are not legit psychologists, just talking about everything they know.
We interestingly enough, you know, it's interesting when I when
(23:38):
I got into this and I created this, I wanted
it to really show why expertise matters and really shines
spotlight on a lot of my A lot of nerds
who are who are having their head down in the
laboratory and are doing careful work. It feels like these
days we're living in the age of everyone's an expert,
if that makes sense. Everyone just all you have to
(23:59):
have is commfidence and that what you're saying is true
and that's enough to uh for others to really take
you seriously. And it's it's a no no shade, but
it's uh, it's just it's an observation.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Mm hmmm, hmm. Well, I think it's been. That's one
of the great things about your podcast is that for
those who want those listeners who want evidence based, you know, uh,
experimentally generated evidence, you know, of of what we're of
(24:34):
these ideas behind what these ideas that we're talking about,
your your podcast has always been a place to go
for that.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Oh, thank you. That's certainly was the intention.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah, yeah, I wondered, you know, just back to this
question of your podcast as a creative enterprise. Did you
feel like you at first were figuring out how to
talk to your guests and then eventually you settled into
like a kind of a pattern or you know, a
(25:04):
practice that at first you were doing your best to
work out.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yes, I learned on the fly, you know, was like
I went to a podcasting school, and there weren't that
many other examples out there. I just committed myself to
being myself, you know, my quirky you know self and
and authentic. You know, it really mattered to me, and
I started, you know, if I may be so bold
(25:31):
to say, I felt like I had a knack for it.
I felt like it suited me, you know, to get
out of the laboratory and have conversations and show my
enthusiasm for science and psychology. I love being a public
science communicator and I many years concomplicant with my podcast.
I wrote a popular blog ats Scientific American Psychology say
(25:53):
at first and then Scientific American, So it all kind
of fed into each other. There was a really nice
period of my life.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah, I think it was. It's always been a parent
that you were enjoying yourself. You know, you were very
interested and engaged and eager to talk to these people,
and I think that really showed, you know, thank you. Yeah,
it's always one reason that I've enjoyed your podcast. Yeah.
(26:20):
So another point that you make about that you've pulled
out of what you've learned across hosting the Psychology podcast
is that emotional intelligence vulnerability and having self compassion for
your dark side is important, and I would love to
hear you talk about the dark side. I know you've
(26:40):
done work on well, you know, not so much the
dark triod, but the light triod. Am I saying it right?
Is it? T try it? So? I'm sort of I'm
sort of curious what you might have to say about
the dark side. What what why having self compassion for
our dark side is important?
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Yeah, I've done I've done quite a lot of research
in both the light triad and the dark triad. In
order to validate our light trid, we had to do
a lot of research on the dark triad. And I
think that the point there is that you often see
goodness in its contrast to the opposite. You know, I
don't know if the concept of evil makes a lot
(27:25):
of sense or if we can really define it, but
try in my attempts to to see what what the
light side of personality is. Yeah, we really took a
deep dive into traits such as narcissism, machiavellianism, manipulent other psychopathy.
(27:45):
When I talk about when we talk about the dark side,
we also think about things like just depression or thinking
about anxiety. The field positive psychology calls them negative emotions,
and they contrast that with positive emotions such as contentment
and joy and happiness. But I don't really like the
artificial labeling of certain emotions as negative and others as positive.
(28:11):
I think that we have emotions that are uncomfortable, we
have emotions that are comfortable, you know, or some emotions
that are a static you know. We we I like
talking about the experience more and and really understand how
all these emotions really can can be positive in certain contexts.
(28:32):
My colleague Todd Kashton and and and Robert Biswastiner wrote
a great book together on the Upside of Your Dark Side.
And Todd was on the early days in my on
my podcast talking about the Dancing with your dark Side,
I think is what we titled the episode. And yeah,
(28:53):
and I really agree with that perspective that being able
to that there are many things we can do to
to acknowledge, accept you, and so have self compassion for
the size of ourself that we may have shame over
or the or we or that make us feel uncomfortable. Uh.
(29:14):
There's this idea of the handshake practice with your beautiful
monsters as Sharon Salzburg talked about my podcast and she
talked about her work from from a very bits of
very Buddhist concept, the ideas, you know, it is in
charge of that.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Kind of in a cordial way with your monsters, your
inner demons.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Yeah, you say, you know, I see you, uh, and
a lot of these Richard Schwartz also Dick Schwartz who's
on my podcast, We talked about his approach, and there's
this idea of you know, you welcome them in you
you ask them what do they want? You know, what
what kind of role are they trying to to play?
It in your inner in your inner life or in
(30:03):
your outer life as well, what they try to play either.
And Mark Brackett, who was who's been on a couple
of times a week talking about dealing with your feelings
and emotional intelligence. I would include a component of all this.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah, Well, if I may ask Scott, is what aspect
of your dark side have you developed compassion for?
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Lots of aspects, you know, I look at a lot
of my prior suffering with with a real compassionate lens,
and I don't you know, there are things that would
be so easy for me to like watch earlier interviews
and just cringe. And it'd be easy to do that.
(30:52):
It'd be easy to do that because there's lots of
things I've done that are cringe worthy, and I don't
think that's the relationship I want to have with my
prior self. So I think that you know, being able
to kind of watch versions of me that were in development,
but we're also trying my best with the limited knowledge
(31:16):
I had at the time about the limited wisdom. You know,
we're always limited in our.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Wisdom, right, right, is.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
You know, just with a heavy heart and just with
a lot of love, and you know, like, really I
love that quirky guy, and I'm also glad that I've
learned a lot of lessons and I've also been able to,
you know, step into new versions of myself.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And you know, one of the words
in that phrase that that the point that I that
I made was we talked about emotional intelligence, we talked
about self compassion for the dark side, and the third
point there was vulnerability. And something that's always struck me
about you, Scott is that you're very in tune with
your vulnerability. You're very open about it, you share it,
(32:03):
which I think is such a gift, you know, in
a culture in which vulnerability is often covered over with
a you know, image of everything's everything's great, everything's you know,
I've got every I've got, I'm on top of everything,
you know, and I've I've always felt like you've been
brave enough to share that you're, you know, a vulnerable
(32:25):
human being.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Like I really appreciate that. Any you know that that
means a lot to me. Not one of these, you know,
I'm not going to name memes, but like when these
like there're these polished, you know, self help gurus that
just never seem to have say any everything is so perfect,
(32:48):
you know, every hair is always in place, perfectly. Everything
they say is perfect. Everything they say their audience, they
get a million people being like you're a genius that
you said something you know, so banal, but it's like,
do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (33:03):
I do?
Speaker 1 (33:04):
I do, and I just that's just not me and
uh and I just want to be me, you know.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah. So a sixth point that you pulled out of
your eleven years hosting the podcast, Scott is that relationships, connection,
and social context matter and continually shape our minds. So
we've been talking a lot about sort of individual traits
(33:32):
and states here, but relationships they're so important. Could you
talk a little bit about how that's that theme has
played out across your years hosting the podcast.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Yes, the idea of relationships playing a huge role in
our human flourishing and our contentment in life is backed
by so much research a lot of people from Sonya
obermer Ski who's been on the podcast, uh two against
(34:05):
Sharon Salzburg, you know, talking about love and connection and
having open heart. Uh. There, there's just so much exciting
research on that. Uh my, my head's going through There's
so many people who have you know. We had Ben
Ryan who was on recently talking about the neuroscience of
(34:25):
social connection, Cassie Killim who's uh really talked about the
importance of social connections and so Cassie, yeahs rocking that
and uh yeah, I mean it's been a really big
theme repeating over and over again on this podcast. It's inescapable. Uh.
And it's not just feeling a sense of belonging, but
(34:46):
it's also I like to distinguishing belonging and a sense
of belonging in a sense of intimacy or relatedness where
you and the other person, there's a real mutuality. There
are real uh growth, mutual growth on both ends. With belonging,
you may feel like you belong to something, a group,
(35:10):
an organization, a political you know thing, or and you
go to a meeting and you dissent, you know, or
say I don't think I agree with the party line
here and they say you're out. You know, that's not
a relationship. That's not a relationship. So yeah, I think
a lot of people are obsessed with belonging and the
need to be along. But you know, like DEI belong
belong I think that, you know, not just belonging, but
(35:33):
connection matters a lot too.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Yeah. Yeah, would you say that the you know, all
the research on the importance of relationships has affected you
in terms of how you you know, prioritize relationships or
how you spend your time.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Oh yes, I mean for sure. I mean I I
treasure my friends. I mean, you know, of course, and
there's just nothing better than than just getting together with
your friends and who your particular type of friend, you know,
a friend who accepts all of you you know, and
(36:11):
and get and I do friends like that, you know? Yeah,
shout out Jordan Feinegel and Dan Lerner unconditionally Christa Striker.
Yeah yeah, yeah, there are people in my life, you
know where just just let me be me, they'll be
not that they admire it.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
And vice versa.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Yeah, that's wonderful. Well, this last point that you've pulled
out is just so Scott, you know, it's such the
essence of S. B. K. And so I'll read it here.
The ultimate aim of psychological insight is not just to
fix problems, but to orient life toward growth, meaning and connection.
(36:55):
And this really makes me think of your your book
A Son, right? Is that was that the title? The
sorry that was building on Maslow's Where could you talk
a little bit about that? I really that was a
strand of your work that I especially, yeah, resonates for me.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Thanks, thanks, any Yeah, you know, questions of what is
a good life have permitted my consciousness for a long time.
I really liked the humanistic psychology way of thinking about it.
They really focus on being overdoing and focus on what
really matters. You know, what really matters, what really makes
(37:35):
us feel whole and alive, experientially alive is what the
humanistic psychology really interested in understanding and knowing and yeah.
In my book Transcend, I reimagined Maslow's hierarchy of needs
from a static pyramid that he never drew to a
sail boat that's dynamosed. You know, the sailboat metaphor needs
(37:58):
the goff and sell for where you you know you're
you're you're moving in the ocean and uh or the
sea of life and waves could come crashing down in
you ain't time, there could be wins. You don't know
what's going to happen once you open that sale and
you start moving towards your desired port. But if you
don't have a clear vision of what port you want
to sail to, you know you're not going to be
(38:20):
moving in that direction at all. And so it's very
important to have a very core vision of where you
want to go, have a purpose and move with purpose,
live your live, live your purpose day in and day out,
stay true to your values and uh and also acknowledge
that we have basic needs that sometimes we may have
(38:42):
day our days where we need to close that sale
and then focus on just plugging the holes in the boat.
And that's that's okay, that's okay.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
You seem like someone who's very much living his purpose, Scott,
I mean would you if you had to put your
purpose in a sentence, how would you? What would you say?
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Well, I really want to empower all people to realize
their higher potential. I mean, it's really as simple as that.
There's nothing more exciting to me than when I have
a coaching client. I created a form of coaching in
recent years called self actualization coaching, where we really help
people get in touch with the most alive, unique creative
(39:27):
center of their being. Is the way I put it.
It's also how that that's how Karen Horney put it,
one of my favorite psychoanalysts, neo psychoanalysts who really challenged Freud.
But yeah, so I think really helping people get in
touch with that unique center of their being. And there's
nothing more exciting to me than when I when you know,
(39:48):
I see someone have this aha moment of wonder and
all within themselves at what they already have within them,
you know, or there they see a higher possibility for
themselves and maybe they didn't see in themselves, or maybe
other people didn't see it in them, but they see
it in themselves. And I think that to enable all
(40:08):
people to have that is, you know, that's my purpose.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah. Yeah, that's and that has been from your very
first what was Unngifted your first book.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
That was my first book for a general audience.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Yeah, I mean that was really about, as you said, recognize,
being able to recognize strengths and talents in oneself even
when other people haven't. Yeah, really powerful, that's true.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
I feel seen you feel.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
So looking back across eleven years of the podcast, Scott,
I know you were saying, like, there's been so many guests.
Are there a few moments that stick out to you?
Some something that a guest said that really is still
ringing in your ears, or that you you know, you
find yourself repeating or remembering. Can you think of any
(41:00):
moments that really stand out?
Speaker 1 (41:02):
You know, look after so many episodes, what starts to
remain are these threads that we discussed today. I'll be honest.
The individual people, you know, is, as much as we
want to think all of us are going to it's
our name that you know, our monument's going to last.
Is that really what's most important? You know, It's it's
(41:24):
the fact that I you know, we've had I've had
over the years, so many I would say, every single
one of my guests over for you know, I don't
want to single out anyone here in this in the
ending of this of this episode, I want to make
the point that they have all significantly contributed to the
canon of truth. Yea, and these patterns that we talked
(41:45):
about today, I think, are you really nailed it? You
know that these seven really formed the clusters if you
did a factor analysis of all the episodes, which is
a nerdy statistical technique. These are the major themes this
podcast has covered and that stand out to me as
(42:06):
the message that I think taken together from everyone, the
collective knowledge of four hundred and seventy well, I guess
this is the episode four hundred and seventy eight of
the Psychology podcast.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Wow. Wow, that's a lot. That's a lot. Well. I
want to ask you, Scott about what's next for you,
but not necessarily in terms of specific projects. I want
to know what are you excited about? What do you
want to find out still? You know, I know there's
so many, so many, so much left to be discovered.
What are you excited about and thinking about in terms
(42:41):
of the future.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
Well, one thing is taking my self actualization coaching program
and new directions We're continuing to train coaches and we
have a six month certification program, but I want to
branch out into other areas like education, having teachers view
themselves as self actualization, coaches and managers in the business
world getting increasingly interested in the future of leadership and
(43:05):
particularly human centered leadership. And I have an edited book
I'm doing with Chris Shipley coming out next year on
the future of humor of leadership. Yeah. Really, in the
age of AI and in the age of such uncertainty,
what does it look like where we keep our humanity?
You know? And I also have been really getting into
mentalism and magic, and so I'm still trying to figure
(43:26):
out ways of incorporating my mentalism burgeoning skills into my
keynote speeches and performances and things to really inspire people
to realize the depths of their human potential.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
Yeah, you know, I'm not sure I know what mentalism
is exactly. Could you elaborate on that a little bit.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
It's mind reading mind reading? No, well, you know, the
field of mentalism is a sub branch of magic that
includes your ability to make predictions about what someone's going
to think, your ability to read their minds of what
they're currently thinking, and the ability to influence what they're
going to think in influence. So it's those three areas. Now,
(44:10):
is the mind reading literally you're going in their brain
and you're reading their thoughts. No, but there's deep, complex
methods and various things that you combine to give the
appearance of real mind reading and real magic. And at
the end of the day, the most exciting thing is
being able to create a sense of all and wonder
(44:32):
and people and let them see that things that seem
impossible are actually possible. And that's the thing that excites
me the most about the field of mentalism.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
That's so cool. Will the podcast interviews continue to be
available after.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
The Yes, the Psychology Podcast will still be available the
whole back catalog, and what happens to the feed and
what happens next to the podcast will be uh revealed
at some point.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Well, Scott, it has been such a pleasure talking to
you about your eleven years hosting the Psychology Podcast. I
want to congratulate you on the achievement of all those
years of wonderful interviews that you've been bringing to people,
and thank you for allowing me to be your first
guest and your last guest. It's it's been a real
honor for me.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Thank you, Annie, thank you for being my first and
last guest of this iteration of life. You know, you
may be a guest I hope you may. You may
be the first guest of something else. You never know. Yeah,
but you know, life is uh is a funny thing.
(45:49):
It's it's simultaneously growth oriented and cyclical, if you know
what I mean.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Well, the ascending spiral, that's the the such that I like,
keep returning to the same things, but hopefully adam more.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
That's right, and that's that's you know. Maybe some people
argue that's multiple lives as well, and not just the
point of this life, but that may take us to
another realm or for a different podcast. Any It's been
such an honor talking to you today. And I love
these themes. They really do a great job capturing the
(46:24):
spirit and essence of the Psychology podcast. And I want
to really thank the listeners who've made it all possible
for so many years, who've supported it and uh, yeah,
my my, from the bottom of my heart, thank you
so much to everyone for yeah, making this podcast possible.
And I did it all for you guys.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
Thanks gun,
Hi, everyone, Welcome to episode four hundred and seventy eight
of The Psychology Podcast. This is a very special episode,
well since it's my last one in this form. I've
been podcasting for eleven years now, practically every single week,
and truth is, while I love everything I've learned along
the way, I want to take this time to recenter,
(00:25):
to continue bringing additive value to my audience, and to
recharge myself. When I started this podcast November sixteenth, twenty fourteen,
there weren't many psychology podcasts in existence, if any. I
was driven by my intrinsic passion for the field of
psychology and wanted to put a microphone on the amazing
psychological scientists I knew and shine a spotlight on their
(00:45):
important work and how it applies to the lives of everyone.
Far too often, good scientific research hides in the shadows
in peer reviewed publications, and I wanted to get the
word out there about all the incredible work going on.
Now it's twenty twenty five and everyone in their mother
has a podcast, and there are so many wonderful psychology
related podcasts in existence now, which is great. So I've
(01:07):
decided to take a step back. In this episode, I
am interviewed by the acclaimed science writer and author Annie
Murphy Paul about the major lessons I've learned over the
years doing this podcast. I think the seven major themes
we discuss really do a great job capturing the essence
of this podcast, which has always been more about being
than doing. Creativity over efficiency, self actualization over achievement, deep
(01:31):
fulfillment over fleeting feelings of happiness, and self transcendence over
self enhancement. Thanks from the bottom of my heart to
all of you for making this podcast possible and for
your support over the years. If you feel called, please
write a review on iTunes or wherever to let me
know what the show has meant to you. I wish
you all the very best in your own sacred journey
(01:52):
of self actualization and self transcendence, and look forward to
sharing with you all the next steps in my own
journey when it's time. As Michila Cole so eloquently put it,
do not be afraid to disappear from it from us
for a while and see what comes to you in
the silence. So, without further ado, I bring you Annie
Murphy Paul and the seven biggest insights I've gleaned from
(02:15):
doing this podcast, The Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Scott the Man of the Hour.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
How are you doing, Annie Murphy, Paul Woo. This is
episode four hundred and seventy seven of the Psychology Podcast.
You were on episode one Yesogy Podcast in November sixteen
of twenty fourteen.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Wow, So how much has changed since then? Right?
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yeah? Yeah, A lot, A lot has changed, it a
lot has not changed. I real listened to our episode
and I was like, well, it still holds, It's still
it's great. You did great the science of growing smarter
and that and maintaining you know, high expectations. It was
(03:06):
really good.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Yeah. Huh, Well you've certainly grown and grown smarter probably
in the eleven years since then. Right, it's certain knowledgeable.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Maybe my fluid intelligence has decreased my processing speed, but
my crystallized intelligence has increased for sure my wisdom.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah. Well, before we get into the seven insights that
you've sort of pulled together from your eleven years of
posting the Psychology Podcast, I just want to ask you, like,
how are you feeling about this project, this long, long
running project coming to an end.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
I feel really proud of the the rich content that
I was able to record that will last forever, you know,
as long as we have digital and humanity. Yeah. I
really this was a really meaningful personal project of mine
that started by me just wanting to put the microphone
(04:11):
on my colleagues at Penn UH and then, you know,
one of some of my first guests was it was you.
We had Angela Duckworth as one of my first guests,
and you know, I just sort of one of my
went to my friends at Penn and I was like, Hey,
I would love to feature your research. I would really
love to get the word out there about what you're doing.
It's so awesome. It really come from you know, came
(04:33):
from this place of a real intrinsic passion for the
field of psychology. And I didn't really see anything like
that at the time in the podcast area.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah, you were early. You were early in the podcasting game.
Now every now everyone has a podcast, and it's true,
like it's it's too it's too common, it's too popular.
I'm getting out.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
It's true.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I'd like to know what you're doing next, because you're obviously,
you know, on the cutting edge.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Thanks, Well, what whatever I do next is will be
something next level and it'll be something even better than
the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Okay, well, let's let's start our look back at what
you feel like you've learned by talking to all these
incredible researchers across eleven years. And one of them, one
of the points that you pulled out is certainly not
something that you learned on the Psychology podcast, because I
know you were working in this area well before that.
(05:32):
One of the seven insights that you pulled out of
your your eleven years of doing this podcast, Scott, is
that human potential is far broader than standard metrics of
IQ or achievement. And I know that's a theme of
your work and you're thinking for many years, how did
how did that play out in the conversations you had
(05:53):
on the podcast?
Speaker 1 (05:55):
I think this that's definitely a major theme. Human potential
is something that I view as not tied up with
your intelligence necessary as a sole factor. And I certainly
don't think that the extent to which we're achieving human
potential is the extent to which we're achieving based on
standard metrics of success, you know, like achievement being you
(06:19):
have to get accolades or likes on Instagram, you know,
in order to really feel like you're achieving your human potential.
I think a lot of people feel these days like
they're not they're not maximizing their potential if they're not
getting enough as attention as the next person on social media.
And you know, my whole career has really been trying
(06:39):
to expand our notions of what intelligence means as well
what it means to be smart and include the whole
a lot of things in the NEU diversity spectrum.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
You know, can you remember a particular conversation with a
researcher that brought that out, that point out for you?
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Oh boy, you know, I'm going through my head that
we're almost five hundred episodes. Yeah, you were for the
first one in talking about how to be smarter and
and your your ideas are smart weren't necessarily tied to IQ.
But I'm also just thinking about my own research and
I did the Human Potential Lab was a little series
(07:22):
within the psychology podcast I did, and I talked about
I did a little lecture on IQ and intelligence and
how we need to kind of go beyond the standard metrics. Yeah,
so that's as it's been a common theme and that
I've tried to interject into almost all my interviews.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yes, yes, yes, Well this next point is one that's
dear to my heart because you know, I wrote a
book about personality testing, the Culture Personality that was a
cultural history and scientific critique of personality testing. And your
point here is that personality traits are not fit at
(08:00):
transformation is possible and meaningful, and you've done work, some
of your own work is in the area of personality,
am I right?
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yeah, absolutely so. I really like the newer way of
we're kind of thinking about personality traits and variation like
as density distributions. So all of us really go throughout
the day being all sorts of different levels of a
personality trait. So to say you're an introvert doesn't mean
that you're an introvert twenty four to seven, right, you know,
(08:33):
you have your extroverted moments. These are personality really is
just your habitual patterns of states, you know. Traits are
just habitual patterns of states. You know. But you can
change your personality by changing your habitual pattern of states.
And that's the thing I want to make very clear
to people. And there there's some really exciting personality intervention research.
(08:57):
I'm doing it right, now with my students at our
college personality lecture, where I have them choose a particular
Big Five personality trait they want to change, and I
have them use some of these scientific validated interventions to
do a whole bunch of actions to try to change them.
Interesting enough, the one that the trait that easiest to
(09:17):
change is neuroticism. Yes, I'm surprised.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I might have thought it would be introversion that you could.
You could sort of just change your way of interacting
with people and push yourself to get out there a
little bit more and end up being more extroverted.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
But maybe a different way of phrasing it in terms
of the easiest to change is that you see the
largest effects over time. Interesting, people can There are lot
of things people can do to reduce their anxiety in
life and to be more emotionally stable and have emotional
regulation techniques. So things like meditation, reframe, cognitive reframing, cognitive reappraisal, distancing,
(10:00):
imagining to yourself in a moment, well, you know, fifty years,
will this matter? You know? The help said I'm getting
right now, you know. So there's a bunch of things there.
But the hardest trait I think this is interesting. The
hardest trait that we've found to really change in the
long run, and that don't really have such large effects
with these interventions is the trade openness to experience, which
(10:22):
I think is the trait that's most related to creativity
and human flourishing.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
What do you have any ideas, Scott about why that
might be so difficult to change?
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Well, I don't think part of that is that psychologists
really haven't really done a great job coming up with
the right activities and actions to really move the needle
on that. We are much clearer on what you need
to do. If you want to be more extroverted, or
be more emotionally stable, more conscientiousness, more conscientious conscientious, I
should say yes, And then you know if you want
(10:58):
to be more agreeable or more well, so a lot
of my students want a lot of people want to
be less agreeable. That's another thing than a lot of
people might want because they're too much what people please are.
So it depends on whatever direction you want to go
there on that trade. But openness to experience is such
a broad trait that it's one that I've studied a
long time in my career and includes not only intellectual curiosity,
(11:21):
but deep appreciation of the arts and music and being
able to get deeply absorbed in what you're doing and
associated with creativity. It's the number one best predictor of creativity,
So it'd be important if we could figure out ways
of teaching it. But I don't think the name was
really nailed it yet.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Yeah. Interesting, Well let me ask you, Scott, do you
think your pattern of personality traits has changed it all
across eleven years of Oh?
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Absolutely, yeah, I've definitely become less agreeable.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Really?
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Oh yeah that?
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Or how is that? Why? And how?
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I mean? I listened to some of my earlier relistening
to my episode with you, you know, I was like a
little lap dog, you know. Oh lady, you're amazing.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
You know.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
It's like, you know, I don't know. It's just like
I don't I don't feel the need to like appease
people so much anymore. I really am very connected to
who I am, and I feel like I know who myself.
I know myself a lot better than I did eleven
years ago, and I don't really need other people to
tell me who I am. Hill. I want to take
(12:33):
a moment to make a few important announcements that I'm
really excited about. As you all know, I'm committed to
helping people self actualize. In the service of that, I
just had a new book come out called Rise Above.
Overcome a victim mindset, empower yourself and realize your full potential.
In this book, I offer a science backed toolkit to
help you overcome your living beliefs and take control of
(12:56):
your life. Are you tired of feeling helpless? This book
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now back to the show.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
So in your case, becoming a little less agreeable has
been a good thing.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
It sounds like been a very good thing. It's been
a very good thing, and U you know, but not
so much that, you know, one becomes an asshole, and
important not to not to reduce it too much. Some
people when they have this like no or mister nice
guy attitude and then they kind of got the extreme
and that's everyone can tell that they've overcompensated, you know,
(14:13):
just there's you know, there's just a good Carl Rogers
put it so well in one of his quotes. He said,
it's not about being more than you are. It's not
about being less than you are, you know, being self effacing.
It's not about being more than you are and puffing
yourself up, you know. It's about really getting in touch
with who you truly are and really being comfortable with it. So, yeah,
I think I've become more comfortable in my own skin probably.
(14:34):
M hm.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yes, we love Carl Rogers, don't we. What's the I
was grasping for one of his famous phrases at one
time talking to you, and you knew it by heart,
the one.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
About the curious paradox.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, can you say.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
The paradox is that once we accept who we are,
then we can then we can change right right?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yes, I love that. I find that to be very true. Well,
what you said about how personality traits are really a
pattern of states that we often occupy leads us into
another point that you've drawn out of your eleven years
of hosting the Psychology podcast, which is long lasting. Meaningful
(15:16):
change often depends on habits, systems, and repeated behaviors. Yes,
what's your what's your what's your thinking about that?
Speaker 1 (15:28):
And we have had some really world class people on
the show. We've talked about that over the years, like
art Markmen talked about very early on and how to
change your habits. Yeah. I've had James Clear on my podcast,
you know, who's definitely bowling up. A lot of people
after appearing on my podcast have blown up.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Yes, it's funny, isn't it. Yeah?
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Curious curious?
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
I had Tim Farrison in the early days and he
was really uh, he really talked about how he creates
very systematic habits, and so is there there is something
I've learned from a lot of my guests who are
maybe a different kind of personality than me, There's something
I still learn from them. I'm more I fall more
(16:14):
in kind of the dreamy, you know, openness to experience
camp day dreamer. But there's something to be said and
a lot to be learned from the kind of personality
of the very like you know, rigid consistency. You know,
they're obsessed with consistency. They're obsessed with results and quantifying
themselves and and and I think that if you do
(16:37):
want to make long lasting changes, it's good to have
a plan. I think that is very good. I've I've
discovered that to be very beneficial in personal life. It's
good to know when you're where, when you're making progress,
and have these kind of smart goals as are called.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah, can you think of a habit that you work
to change, you know, over the past eleven years?
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Oh, that was a great question. Well, exercise has been
something I've gotten into, especially living in LA Yeah. Yeah,
that's the only way to date in LA is to
look good, whereas in New York it's they care about
my brain. There's a very very clear difference between dating
(17:21):
and New York in LA. But you didn't come on
the Psychology podcast to talk about my dating life.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
But I'm wondering what worked for you in terms of
making exercise a regular habit.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
It's fun, it's it, you know, it feels good too.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Intrinsic motivation.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yeah, I mean it feels it feels like you're conquering something,
even if you don't conquer anything else that day. You know,
if you get up, I get up the usually work
up with the out in the morning, and then I'm like,
you know what, I don't need to do anything else today,
Like I did something today. I mean, of course, I
there's other things I need to do, but I'm saying,
you know, at least I conquered one, one small thing today.
It feels good to be healthy and to feel vital
(18:01):
and alive in terms of habits and personality. It's it's
a really interesting question, Like eleven years is kind of
flashing before my eyes. I think I've just really chilled
out a lot. And it might have been a lot
of the old marijuana I did in Santa Monica on
(18:23):
the beach.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
But less anxious, you would say, or less sex. I'm so.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
I think I've lowered my neurotensis levels maybe fifty percent
since two thousand and fourteen, Yes, since I started. Absolutely.
I mean when I moved in Philadelphia the time at
Penned and I would I would just walk around in
the state of constant anxiety and panic attacks, and you know,
I it's very the idea of a panic attack is
so far into me now, and it feels so far away.
(18:54):
It doesn't feel like I when we put this way,
it feels like I really can nip things a bud
more emotionally. Things don't pile downward automatically anymore like they
used to. And yeah, that was a big change.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yeah, I feel that I've seen that change in knowing
you Scott that year.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Way more chill now, Yeah, yeah, let's worried about things,
more kind of gone with the flow.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yeah, well that's true. I mean I might even say
that I'm pretty emotionally stable now I wouldn't, you know,
even I wouldn't even say I'm neurotic anymore, which is fascinating. Yeah, yeah,
concerning that, that was a big part of my identity
for so many years.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yeah, yeah, was there something there that was especially helpful.
Do you meditate, do you well?
Speaker 1 (19:39):
I do think living in California for five years and yeah,
getting you at meditation and living in such a chill
environment helped. Coming back to New York is an interesting
experience for me.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
But you really perceive a lot of differences between us
two places.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Huh, they're Mignight and day Scott.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
I want to talk. I want to turn to another
point that you've drawn from your eleven years of hosting
the Psychology podcast. That is, I know, very near and
dear to your heart, which is creativity and this idea
that creativity is a really vital dimension of human flourishing.
And it's been such a consistent thread in your work,
(20:25):
you know, and your thinking. And I wonder why if
you could talk a little bit about why you feel
creativity is so important and so valuable.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
I think creativity is everything you know to be able
to bring into existence things that have not existed before.
We do that automatically just by existing. And I think
to be alive is a creative experience. And well, freyd
(20:53):
said love and work, work and love for the cornerstones
of humanness. I think think work is a corner stone
of humans think creativity is. I think it's if I
may modify Freud, I think it's love and creativity. Love
and creativity are are the things to live to live
a good life, you know, feeling love for an activity
(21:17):
or doing or for a human you know, but really
having that that sense of aliveness usually is correlated with
a sense of you're creating things of value in the world.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
What I like about your approach to creativity is that
you don't seem to feel that it's restricted to you know,
artists or writers or musicians, but that all of us
humans are creative in a sense. Do you agree with that?
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yes, I don't think creativity is limited to a particular
field of study. There might be some fields where we
don't want intense creativity, like pilots but or tax accountants.
But nevertheless, if we do view creativity as divergent thinking
and the ability to come up with lots of solutions
(22:11):
to a problem, maybe we do want that everywhere. We
want the potential the ability for divergent thinking, not just
convergent thinking, which is the ability to come up with
a one right answer, and also with divert thinking, a
lot of a big part of diversion thinking is being
able to come up with the problem in the first place,
(22:32):
knowing what, being able to see that there's a problem.
There are a lot of problems that people don't even
see as problems.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Wow, that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
I do think creative people are very good at at.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Picking up identifying problems.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Yes, Steve Jobs was good at that.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah. Yeah. Do you did you feel that putting together
your podcast was a creative endeavor?
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Oh? Absolutely, we set first. I mean it was such
a a new thing in the podcast space, right, you know.
I mean there was a there was a period of
years where it felt very fresh and it felt very
something special. You know. Now, like you said, everyone and
(23:15):
their mother has a podcast, and psychology content is everyone's
a psychologist. I mean, I see so many people who
are just so much more famous than I am on Instagram,
who are not legit psychologists, just talking about everything they know.
We interestingly enough, you know, it's interesting when I when
(23:38):
I got into this and I created this, I wanted
it to really show why expertise matters and really shines
spotlight on a lot of my A lot of nerds
who are who are having their head down in the
laboratory and are doing careful work. It feels like these
days we're living in the age of everyone's an expert,
if that makes sense. Everyone just all you have to
(23:59):
have is commfidence and that what you're saying is true
and that's enough to uh for others to really take
you seriously. And it's it's a no no shade, but
it's uh, it's just it's an observation.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Mm hmmm, hmm. Well, I think it's been. That's one
of the great things about your podcast is that for
those who want those listeners who want evidence based, you know, uh,
experimentally generated evidence, you know, of of what we're of
(24:34):
these ideas behind what these ideas that we're talking about,
your your podcast has always been a place to go
for that.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Oh, thank you. That's certainly was the intention.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah, yeah, I wondered, you know, just back to this
question of your podcast as a creative enterprise. Did you
feel like you at first were figuring out how to
talk to your guests and then eventually you settled into
like a kind of a pattern or you know, a
(25:04):
practice that at first you were doing your best to
work out.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yes, I learned on the fly, you know, was like
I went to a podcasting school, and there weren't that
many other examples out there. I just committed myself to
being myself, you know, my quirky you know self and
and authentic. You know, it really mattered to me, and
I started, you know, if I may be so bold
(25:31):
to say, I felt like I had a knack for it.
I felt like it suited me, you know, to get
out of the laboratory and have conversations and show my
enthusiasm for science and psychology. I love being a public
science communicator and I many years concomplicant with my podcast.
I wrote a popular blog ats Scientific American Psychology say
(25:53):
at first and then Scientific American, So it all kind
of fed into each other. There was a really nice
period of my life.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah, I think it was. It's always been a parent
that you were enjoying yourself. You know, you were very
interested and engaged and eager to talk to these people,
and I think that really showed, you know, thank you. Yeah,
it's always one reason that I've enjoyed your podcast. Yeah.
(26:20):
So another point that you make about that you've pulled
out of what you've learned across hosting the Psychology podcast
is that emotional intelligence vulnerability and having self compassion for
your dark side is important, and I would love to
hear you talk about the dark side. I know you've
(26:40):
done work on well, you know, not so much the
dark triod, but the light triod. Am I saying it right?
Is it? T try it? So? I'm sort of I'm
sort of curious what you might have to say about
the dark side. What what why having self compassion for
our dark side is important?
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Yeah, I've done I've done quite a lot of research
in both the light triad and the dark triad. In
order to validate our light trid, we had to do
a lot of research on the dark triad. And I
think that the point there is that you often see
goodness in its contrast to the opposite. You know, I
don't know if the concept of evil makes a lot
(27:25):
of sense or if we can really define it, but
try in my attempts to to see what what the
light side of personality is. Yeah, we really took a
deep dive into traits such as narcissism, machiavellianism, manipulent other psychopathy.
(27:45):
When I talk about when we talk about the dark side,
we also think about things like just depression or thinking
about anxiety. The field positive psychology calls them negative emotions,
and they contrast that with positive emotions such as contentment
and joy and happiness. But I don't really like the
artificial labeling of certain emotions as negative and others as positive.
(28:11):
I think that we have emotions that are uncomfortable, we
have emotions that are comfortable, you know, or some emotions
that are a static you know. We we I like
talking about the experience more and and really understand how
all these emotions really can can be positive in certain contexts.
(28:32):
My colleague Todd Kashton and and and Robert Biswastiner wrote
a great book together on the Upside of Your Dark Side.
And Todd was on the early days in my on
my podcast talking about the Dancing with your dark Side,
I think is what we titled the episode. And yeah,
(28:53):
and I really agree with that perspective that being able
to that there are many things we can do to
to acknowledge, accept you, and so have self compassion for
the size of ourself that we may have shame over
or the or we or that make us feel uncomfortable. Uh.
(29:14):
There's this idea of the handshake practice with your beautiful
monsters as Sharon Salzburg talked about my podcast and she
talked about her work from from a very bits of
very Buddhist concept, the ideas, you know, it is in
charge of that.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Kind of in a cordial way with your monsters, your
inner demons.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Yeah, you say, you know, I see you, uh, and
a lot of these Richard Schwartz also Dick Schwartz who's
on my podcast, We talked about his approach, and there's
this idea of you know, you welcome them in you
you ask them what do they want? You know, what
what kind of role are they trying to to play?
It in your inner in your inner life or in
(30:03):
your outer life as well, what they try to play either.
And Mark Brackett, who was who's been on a couple
of times a week talking about dealing with your feelings
and emotional intelligence. I would include a component of all this.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah, Well, if I may ask Scott, is what aspect
of your dark side have you developed compassion for?
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Lots of aspects, you know, I look at a lot
of my prior suffering with with a real compassionate lens,
and I don't you know, there are things that would
be so easy for me to like watch earlier interviews
and just cringe. And it'd be easy to do that.
(30:52):
It'd be easy to do that because there's lots of
things I've done that are cringe worthy, and I don't
think that's the relationship I want to have with my
prior self. So I think that you know, being able
to kind of watch versions of me that were in development,
but we're also trying my best with the limited knowledge
(31:16):
I had at the time about the limited wisdom. You know,
we're always limited in our.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Wisdom, right, right, is.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
You know, just with a heavy heart and just with
a lot of love, and you know, like, really I
love that quirky guy, and I'm also glad that I've
learned a lot of lessons and I've also been able to,
you know, step into new versions of myself.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And you know, one of the words
in that phrase that that the point that I that
I made was we talked about emotional intelligence, we talked
about self compassion for the dark side, and the third
point there was vulnerability. And something that's always struck me
about you, Scott is that you're very in tune with
your vulnerability. You're very open about it, you share it,
(32:03):
which I think is such a gift, you know, in
a culture in which vulnerability is often covered over with
a you know, image of everything's everything's great, everything's you know,
I've got every I've got, I'm on top of everything,
you know, and I've I've always felt like you've been
brave enough to share that you're, you know, a vulnerable
(32:25):
human being.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Like I really appreciate that. Any you know that that
means a lot to me. Not one of these, you know,
I'm not going to name memes, but like when these
like there're these polished, you know, self help gurus that
just never seem to have say any everything is so perfect,
(32:48):
you know, every hair is always in place, perfectly. Everything
they say is perfect. Everything they say their audience, they
get a million people being like you're a genius that
you said something you know, so banal, but it's like,
do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (33:03):
I do?
Speaker 1 (33:04):
I do, and I just that's just not me and
uh and I just want to be me, you know.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah. So a sixth point that you pulled out of
your eleven years hosting the podcast, Scott is that relationships, connection,
and social context matter and continually shape our minds. So
we've been talking a lot about sort of individual traits
(33:32):
and states here, but relationships they're so important. Could you
talk a little bit about how that's that theme has
played out across your years hosting the podcast.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Yes, the idea of relationships playing a huge role in
our human flourishing and our contentment in life is backed
by so much research a lot of people from Sonya
obermer Ski who's been on the podcast, uh two against
(34:05):
Sharon Salzburg, you know, talking about love and connection and
having open heart. Uh. There, there's just so much exciting
research on that. Uh my, my head's going through There's
so many people who have you know. We had Ben
Ryan who was on recently talking about the neuroscience of
(34:25):
social connection, Cassie Killim who's uh really talked about the
importance of social connections and so Cassie, yeahs rocking that
and uh yeah, I mean it's been a really big
theme repeating over and over again on this podcast. It's inescapable. Uh.
And it's not just feeling a sense of belonging, but
(34:46):
it's also I like to distinguishing belonging and a sense
of belonging in a sense of intimacy or relatedness where
you and the other person, there's a real mutuality. There
are real uh growth, mutual growth on both ends. With belonging,
you may feel like you belong to something, a group,
(35:10):
an organization, a political you know thing, or and you
go to a meeting and you dissent, you know, or
say I don't think I agree with the party line
here and they say you're out. You know, that's not
a relationship. That's not a relationship. So yeah, I think
a lot of people are obsessed with belonging and the
need to be along. But you know, like DEI belong
belong I think that, you know, not just belonging, but
(35:33):
connection matters a lot too.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Yeah. Yeah, would you say that the you know, all
the research on the importance of relationships has affected you
in terms of how you you know, prioritize relationships or
how you spend your time.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Oh yes, I mean for sure. I mean I I
treasure my friends. I mean, you know, of course, and
there's just nothing better than than just getting together with
your friends and who your particular type of friend, you know,
a friend who accepts all of you you know, and
(36:11):
and get and I do friends like that, you know? Yeah,
shout out Jordan Feinegel and Dan Lerner unconditionally Christa Striker.
Yeah yeah, yeah, there are people in my life, you
know where just just let me be me, they'll be
not that they admire it.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
And vice versa.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Yeah, that's wonderful. Well, this last point that you've pulled
out is just so Scott, you know, it's such the
essence of S. B. K. And so I'll read it here.
The ultimate aim of psychological insight is not just to
fix problems, but to orient life toward growth, meaning and connection.
(36:55):
And this really makes me think of your your book
A Son, right? Is that was that the title? The
sorry that was building on Maslow's Where could you talk
a little bit about that? I really that was a
strand of your work that I especially, yeah, resonates for me.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Thanks, thanks, any Yeah, you know, questions of what is
a good life have permitted my consciousness for a long time.
I really liked the humanistic psychology way of thinking about it.
They really focus on being overdoing and focus on what
really matters. You know, what really matters, what really makes
(37:35):
us feel whole and alive, experientially alive is what the
humanistic psychology really interested in understanding and knowing and yeah.
In my book Transcend, I reimagined Maslow's hierarchy of needs
from a static pyramid that he never drew to a
sail boat that's dynamosed. You know, the sailboat metaphor needs
(37:58):
the goff and sell for where you you know you're
you're you're moving in the ocean and uh or the
sea of life and waves could come crashing down in
you ain't time, there could be wins. You don't know
what's going to happen once you open that sale and
you start moving towards your desired port. But if you
don't have a clear vision of what port you want
to sail to, you know you're not going to be
(38:20):
moving in that direction at all. And so it's very
important to have a very core vision of where you
want to go, have a purpose and move with purpose,
live your live, live your purpose day in and day out,
stay true to your values and uh and also acknowledge
that we have basic needs that sometimes we may have
(38:42):
day our days where we need to close that sale
and then focus on just plugging the holes in the boat.
And that's that's okay, that's okay.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
You seem like someone who's very much living his purpose, Scott,
I mean would you if you had to put your
purpose in a sentence, how would you? What would you say?
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Well, I really want to empower all people to realize
their higher potential. I mean, it's really as simple as that.
There's nothing more exciting to me than when I have
a coaching client. I created a form of coaching in
recent years called self actualization coaching, where we really help
people get in touch with the most alive, unique creative
(39:27):
center of their being. Is the way I put it.
It's also how that that's how Karen Horney put it,
one of my favorite psychoanalysts, neo psychoanalysts who really challenged Freud.
But yeah, so I think really helping people get in
touch with that unique center of their being. And there's
nothing more exciting to me than when I when you know,
(39:48):
I see someone have this aha moment of wonder and
all within themselves at what they already have within them,
you know, or there they see a higher possibility for
themselves and maybe they didn't see in themselves, or maybe
other people didn't see it in them, but they see
it in themselves. And I think that to enable all
(40:08):
people to have that is, you know, that's my purpose.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah. Yeah, that's and that has been from your very
first what was Unngifted your first book.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
That was my first book for a general audience.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Yeah, I mean that was really about, as you said, recognize,
being able to recognize strengths and talents in oneself even
when other people haven't. Yeah, really powerful, that's true.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
I feel seen you feel.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
So looking back across eleven years of the podcast, Scott,
I know you were saying, like, there's been so many guests.
Are there a few moments that stick out to you?
Some something that a guest said that really is still
ringing in your ears, or that you you know, you
find yourself repeating or remembering. Can you think of any
(41:00):
moments that really stand out?
Speaker 1 (41:02):
You know, look after so many episodes, what starts to
remain are these threads that we discussed today. I'll be honest.
The individual people, you know, is, as much as we
want to think all of us are going to it's
our name that you know, our monument's going to last.
Is that really what's most important? You know, It's it's
(41:24):
the fact that I you know, we've had I've had
over the years, so many I would say, every single
one of my guests over for you know, I don't
want to single out anyone here in this in the
ending of this of this episode, I want to make
the point that they have all significantly contributed to the
canon of truth. Yea, and these patterns that we talked
(41:45):
about today, I think, are you really nailed it? You
know that these seven really formed the clusters if you
did a factor analysis of all the episodes, which is
a nerdy statistical technique. These are the major themes this
podcast has covered and that stand out to me as
(42:06):
the message that I think taken together from everyone, the
collective knowledge of four hundred and seventy well, I guess
this is the episode four hundred and seventy eight of
the Psychology podcast.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Wow. Wow, that's a lot. That's a lot. Well. I
want to ask you, Scott about what's next for you,
but not necessarily in terms of specific projects. I want
to know what are you excited about? What do you
want to find out still? You know, I know there's
so many, so many, so much left to be discovered.
What are you excited about and thinking about in terms
(42:41):
of the future.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
Well, one thing is taking my self actualization coaching program
and new directions We're continuing to train coaches and we
have a six month certification program, but I want to
branch out into other areas like education, having teachers view
themselves as self actualization, coaches and managers in the business
world getting increasingly interested in the future of leadership and
(43:05):
particularly human centered leadership. And I have an edited book
I'm doing with Chris Shipley coming out next year on
the future of humor of leadership. Yeah. Really, in the
age of AI and in the age of such uncertainty,
what does it look like where we keep our humanity?
You know? And I also have been really getting into
mentalism and magic, and so I'm still trying to figure
(43:26):
out ways of incorporating my mentalism burgeoning skills into my
keynote speeches and performances and things to really inspire people
to realize the depths of their human potential.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
Yeah, you know, I'm not sure I know what mentalism
is exactly. Could you elaborate on that a little bit.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
It's mind reading mind reading? No, well, you know, the
field of mentalism is a sub branch of magic that
includes your ability to make predictions about what someone's going
to think, your ability to read their minds of what
they're currently thinking, and the ability to influence what they're
going to think in influence. So it's those three areas. Now,
(44:10):
is the mind reading literally you're going in their brain
and you're reading their thoughts. No, but there's deep, complex
methods and various things that you combine to give the
appearance of real mind reading and real magic. And at
the end of the day, the most exciting thing is
being able to create a sense of all and wonder
(44:32):
and people and let them see that things that seem
impossible are actually possible. And that's the thing that excites
me the most about the field of mentalism.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
That's so cool. Will the podcast interviews continue to be
available after.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
The Yes, the Psychology Podcast will still be available the
whole back catalog, and what happens to the feed and
what happens next to the podcast will be uh revealed
at some point.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Well, Scott, it has been such a pleasure talking to
you about your eleven years hosting the Psychology Podcast. I
want to congratulate you on the achievement of all those
years of wonderful interviews that you've been bringing to people,
and thank you for allowing me to be your first
guest and your last guest. It's it's been a real
honor for me.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Thank you, Annie, thank you for being my first and
last guest of this iteration of life. You know, you
may be a guest I hope you may. You may
be the first guest of something else. You never know. Yeah,
but you know, life is uh is a funny thing.
(45:49):
It's it's simultaneously growth oriented and cyclical, if you know
what I mean.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Well, the ascending spiral, that's the the such that I like,
keep returning to the same things, but hopefully adam more.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
That's right, and that's that's you know. Maybe some people
argue that's multiple lives as well, and not just the
point of this life, but that may take us to
another realm or for a different podcast. Any It's been
such an honor talking to you today. And I love
these themes. They really do a great job capturing the
(46:24):
spirit and essence of the Psychology podcast. And I want
to really thank the listeners who've made it all possible
for so many years, who've supported it and uh, yeah,
my my, from the bottom of my heart, thank you
so much to everyone for yeah, making this podcast possible.
And I did it all for you guys.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
Thanks gun,
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