Finding Work That Leaves You Fulfilled w/ Dr. Tessa West

This week Scott is joined by NYU professor and author Dr. Tessa West. Scott and Dr. West discuss how to find a fulfilling job, how to deal with jerks in the workplace, five common sources of career frustration, and how to make a resume more appealing. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
You know, the first step before you leave anyone, or
before you make any big moves, is to dive into
the psychological underpinnings of your own happiness. So stop making
lists about sort of do I want to work from home,
what city do I want to be in, what kind
of money do I want to make, and really try
to understand the psychological underpinnings of why you're miserable.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Here today we have the NYU professor Tesso West on
the show. Doctor West studies the nature and dynamics of
social perception. She's the author of the book Jerks at
Work and more recently job Therapy, Finding work that works
for You. In this wide ranging discussion, we discuss how

(00:41):
to deal with jerks in the workplace, the different types
of jerks, and five common sources of career frustration. We
also discussed some great lessons she has learned from collecting
data from people who hire, promote, and fire people, such
as how to make a resume more appealing. It was
so great to finally have doctor West on the show,
and there's such a wealth of information in this episode
that you won't want to miss. So with that further Ado,

(01:03):
I bring you doctor Tessa West.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
Welcome Tessa West to the Psychology Podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Some ground rules. If you ever feel anxious or need
any mindfulness are grounding during the show. You can borrow
my chill pill.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
Amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
It's two hundred and fifty milligrams. So so glad to
have you here. Congratulations in your new book, job Therapy,
finding the work that works for you?

Speaker 3 (01:26):
Is it? Okay?

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Before we get into the nitty gridy of your new book,
can we talk about some of your older works. Since
this is your first time ever on the Psychology Podcast,
I never had a chance to nerd out with you
about like jerks at work for instance.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
Absolutely, yeah, I love that research.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
So you wrote an earlier called jerks at Work Toxic
co workers and what to do about them? First of all,
do you think nowadays it's kind of calling everyone toxic
is maybe starting to get overused a little bit, because
now I'm noticing a trend on like TikTok or like
every you know thirteen year old is they're like everyone
around me's toxic.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
Absolutely. Even when I wrote the book, I sort of
hated the subtitle.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
That's funny.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
You know, it's really easy to call someone toxic if
they do something that you don't like or they give
you negative feedback. I think toxic is overplayed, and it's
also just a word we use anytime we feel uncomfortable
in a social interaction. We immediately label the person toxic,
and it's really hard to actually have a counter to that.
Someone calls you toxic and you say, while I was

(02:24):
trying to give you honest feedback, that makes you look
even more toxic, right, And so yes, I do think
it's problematic, and I will be the first person to
throw that part of my book title under the bus.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
Okay, so that said, there are legitimately toxic, legit toxic
people at work. Yeah, what are some of the main characteristics,
because I know you wrote a cool article saying they're
different types of toxic people. I think you outlined five
or so. Yeah, could you maybe like go through some
of that.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah, I think most of the kind of most dangerous
toxic coworkers have some pretty enviable skill sets. And so
one of my favorites is the kiss up kick downer.
So this is that person who is just really good
at making the boss happy. They tend to be pretty
talented at work, and they tend to have a skill
of reading the room well, so they know who in

(03:09):
power they need to impress. But at the same time,
you know, they're pretty mean to the people who work
for them or the people who work at the same
level as them. So their skill set is really knowing
who to impress and who to kind of throw under
the bus to help get ahead at work. So they're starfuckers,
absolute starfuckers, and we all know, we all know that
we know these people stars. They are fucking have no idea.

(03:31):
They fall victim to flattery very easily, and I think
for good reason, because these people tend to be actually
pretty good at their jobs.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yeah for sure. Okay, so then what's another type. What's
your favorite? What's your favorite type would you like to avoid?

Speaker 1 (03:43):
I think the gas lighter is the most Oh, they
are on kind of a different level. I like to
say that jerks at work are kind of made. They're
not born. You know, we grow them out of certain
kind of systems in the workplace. But gas lighters there
are their own category, and I think they have some
kind of personality issues. They're also really motivated to destroy you,

(04:03):
whereas I think most jerks are actually not the work.
Jerkury is kind of a consequence of their actions, but
it's not the real goal. Gaslighters. They lie with the
intent of deceiving on a grand scale, and they tend
to be very careful and get away with it because
they can pull you into all kinds of, you know,
unethical behavior that you don't actually see coming.

Speaker 3 (04:23):
That's true.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
I wrote an article for Psyicoloto Day where I outlined
the asshole circumplex where I looked. I showed the agency
versus communion, and then on every single one of the
eight I listed what type of asshole it was.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
Cool, it's really nerdy, and I knew you would appreciate
it because of that, So I'll send you that article.
I mean, it's like scientific. I validated it and everything,
so amazing. Yeah, so I think maybe you could slot
some of your toxic people into into your asshole this. Yeah,
the quadrants, that's exactly. I have like the quiet asshole,
then I have the arrogant asshole, then I have like
the manipulative asshole, you know, and like all sorts of.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
Things, all the nice shades of asshole.

Speaker 3 (04:58):
Exactly. That's exactly. That's exactly.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
I see a new book title coming of new fiction
book title. Okay, so what can you do at work
if you really like, can you avoid them? Like there's
a power dynamic there and that puts you in a
really tough situation. It's like, what do you do if
you feel like you can't say no to requests that
are unethical?

Speaker 1 (05:21):
Yeah? I think you know, most people who are victims
of gas lighters, their instinct is to be really inward
and try to fight the battle alone. And that's part
of what got them there, right, So gas leaders tend
to cut you off socially. In fact, that's the biggest
red flag that you're being targeted by one of these
high status people is they're taking you out of important meetings.
They're telling you no one respects your likes you, or

(05:42):
the kind of more interesting and dangerous one is the
one who makes you feel special. You're part of this
special new thing and we can't tell anyone about it yet,
so keep it secret. So that's the real battle that
they're fighting. I think for them, they need to start
networking with people who are at their level, and not
to throw their gaslight or to the bus or to
gossip about them, but to get a sense of how

(06:03):
they're actually perceived by others at work to get some
reputational information about what other people actually think of them.
You know, So most of these people have no idea.
They're living under some illusion that they're either people are
afraid of them or you know, people think they're incompetent
and they need to do some reality checking before they
can do anything about the actual you know, gaslight or

(06:24):
asshole boss that they're dealing with.

Speaker 3 (06:26):
What category would you put Michael Scott in?

Speaker 1 (06:28):
Oh, gosh, you know, he's interesting because he has flavors
of all of the different types, including my favorite kind
of new research topic, which is just awkwardness in inappropriateness
in the workplace. But yeah, yeah, he definitely kind of
does all these little things micromanagement, misperceiving status ques, all
the things.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
Well, it is awkwardness always the same thing as inappropriate. Like,
I feel like there are a lot of people in
the nerdivergent spectrum, myself included, who you know, maybe sometimes awkward,
But does that always mean it's inappropriate? Like because someone
else is uncomfortable with your with your different social style,
is does that necessarily make it inappropriate in the workplace?

Speaker 1 (07:06):
I love that question. I actually think we're starting to
think about awkwardness more is something that people do with
another person, less about kind of being a personality trait,
like you are an awkward person, I'm an awkward person.
But more awkwardness is a dance that we do together,
and a lot of that comes out of uncertainty around
how to handle certain social situations. So it takes two

(07:27):
to be awkward, and it takes two to actually resolve
that awkwardness in the moment. And often, you know, the
reason why it doesn't get resolved is because neither party
know exactly what to do. Should I make a joke,
should I apologize? And so it's really kind of an
interpersonal dynamic more than it is a trait that someone has.

Speaker 3 (07:45):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
I mean, like, there's nothing better than when I'm around
a fellow awkward person because then we can have fun.
Like people who aren't awkward boring, you know, and so.

Speaker 1 (07:53):
They're super boring. And I think awkwardness isn't something that
is objective anyway, It's something that is subjectively perceived.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, love that I just kind of talked over you. Noow,
I'm self conscious that I'm toxic cause I just talked over.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
Talking over each other is actually signed their conversations going.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
Well, oh good souch asn't always it's not always an
indicator that the person's starting Okay, good who I'm not
just thinking very self consciously now looking at your five
list the micromanager. The problem with okay, this is a
cool topic. I really like being too nice at work
because I I I created this, like the scale pathological
altruism scale that I call it now, I call it.

(08:31):
Intrusive helping is the phrase I use in my do
so do you do? You do you think does that
link to some of that work that you've ran about,
like intrusive helping or the excessive helping?

Speaker 1 (08:39):
Excessive helping is kind of a form of micromanagement, I think.
I think when I think about people who are too nice,
I tend to think of and I'd be curious what
you think about this feedback that is generic but nice.
So the less specific it is, the less useful it is. Nice.
Specific feedback is fine. But what we tend to do
at work when we feel on comfortable is we smile

(09:01):
through our gritted teeth and we say, you're doing so
great here in an effort to kind of avoid being
called toxic. And I think some of that kind of
toxic altruism comes from this workplace culture of everybody is
really nice here, we should insult people instead of teaching
people how to give useful, critical feedback in a way
that doesn't feel harmful. We're just layering on the niceties

(09:24):
after niceties, and they're not actually improving or getting any better.

Speaker 3 (09:27):
Do you nice guys really finish last?

Speaker 1 (09:29):
Not in my age group, Scott. When women are in
their forties, we are happy with the nice guys. But
in your twenties, I think, Baby, I think, yeah, nice
guys finish first as you get older.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
Yeah, yeah, let's talk about your new book. Okay, let's
talk about your new book. Wow, it's really good.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
First of all, I feel like it should be on
every organizational psychology's bookshelf psychologist's bookshelf as well as obviously
people in general public as well. You talk about five
common sources of career frustration in this book. I found
each one really interesting. So if we could double click
on each one, I think that would selfishly be really

(10:08):
interesting to me. So identity crisis. Is this something that
is age dependent or is there no expiration date? To
when you can have an identity crisis.

Speaker 1 (10:19):
I don't think there's an expiration date for an identity
crisis or any of these crises. I think, you know,
I frame this chapter around people who have spent some
time becoming good at something enough time where they have
sunk their identity into that career, into that part of
their job, and questioning it is existential, it's uncomfortable, and

(10:41):
you know, there is a bit of a cost that
goes along with people who've been working in one profession
for a long time. But you could also have just
spent some time training in that profession, getting a degree
and then realizing it's not really for you, you know,
or just spent a lot of kind of psychological investment
in that, or even investing by moving or breaking up
with someone, or you know, taking a pay cut. There's

(11:02):
a lot of ways we can psychologically invest identity wise
into a career that it then becomes costly. And I
think years spent on the job, is it necessarily the
only way that we can do that. There's lots of
other ways.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
Wow, Well, what first of all, don't panic, right if
it's happening to you, Like, what's some advice like let's
someone's listening this episode right now and they really are
having this identity crisis and they feel like they should
and maybe they're feeling even shame. I feel like all
year five, there's I could see a case where you
have a meta cognition where you have shame over having
the thing. Yep, you know I was thinking about that.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, I think, you know. The first step for identity crisis,
and really for all of them, but really for this
one is to first just do a little bit of
a self assessment, like how bad is it really and
on what component are you really suffering from that identity lass?
Are you, you know, de identified entirely with this thing?
Are you just not satisfied with this particular workplace that

(11:52):
you're having, And then I think you want to ask
yourself a couple questions of how upset would I be
if I could never do this thing again, had to
let this goal go? You know I've done. I surveyed
a lot of people for this book, and you know
what I found is a lot of people are still
highly identified with careers that don't make them happy. We
see this in healthcare a lot where there's a lot
of burnout and that's just a really rough psychological place

(12:15):
to be in. It's very depressing to feel highly committed
to something that makes you miserable. But I think anyone
who's ever been in a relationship or a crappy marriage
knows what it's like to commit to something that you hate,
you know, that makes you unhappy. And so think about
this through the Yeah, well I'm on my second marriage,
so I definitely went through that first stage. You know,

(12:37):
I think this husband is in the room and he's
giving me. He's giving me major side eye right now.
He's also quoted in the Identity Crisis, I interviewed Dave.
I'm be able for that. He's the identity expert. But
you know, we talk a lot about hating something that
you that is still a part of you, and I
think a lot of people can identify with that rough psychological.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
Experien Well, usually if I hate something about myself, I
don't identify it with it.

Speaker 4 (13:04):
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (13:04):
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
That money, right, it's paying you a lot of money.
Or you spent fifteen years into to learn how to
remove this one thing out of the gall bladder, and
that's all you're good at but you no longer want
to operate on the gall bladder. Then that's that's going
to lead to some kind of identity crisis, right, especially
if you're really good at it and other people are
relying on you to be that expert. You know, you're

(13:28):
the only brain surgeon in town. You're the only dentist
who can really do a good root canal. You know,
leaving it, you're going to let a lot of people down.
And I think that's that's something that a lot of
people suffer with IM just thinking about all my life
choices don't don't get to existent.

Speaker 3 (13:44):
Let's move to the next one. So drifted apart? Woll?

Speaker 2 (13:49):
I mean, look, I see a correlation between some of these.
It's not like they're complete orthogonal. They're not in the
factor analysis, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (13:56):
You know what I'm like factor analysis humor. Okay, So
you know.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
It's gonna make a very Max's rotation. That would be lost.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
I was gonna say these all god of team players
on the principal component analysis.

Speaker 3 (14:11):
Okay, our audience, it's completely lost.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
No I can value jokes. Okay, So do you drifting apart?
You know, do you do you recognize this as part
of yourself anymore? And I and obviously that's right to
the identity crisis one, but it does, you know, partially separate,
like what is that?

Speaker 3 (14:29):
What does that feel like?

Speaker 1 (14:30):
First of all, it feels like I used to love
this thing in front of me and I don't really
recognize it anymore. And it's not that I don't want
this career, you know, and I will I have to
tell you slip into relationship language a lot when I
talk about stuff. So you look at the person sitting
next to you in bed, and who are you? You know?
You used to be this fun, engaging, interesting person, and

(14:52):
I don't you're frank to yourself or yourself or or
I'm looking at him? Who are you? Who is this
man who tweeting all the time? I don't record know
he was always that person, you know. And it's not
that you want a new career, you want the old
thing back. And I think the problem is knowing whether
that old thing exists in another place, and whether the

(15:14):
changes you've experienced are due to kind of structural, top down,
hard to see, hard to control things about the organization
or the field or the economy or whatever. Or something
kind of more local about your team or your boss.
So knowing the level of change is important for these folks.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
Yeah, I mean that drifting apart is that can be
so tough. You're drifting apart from yourself. We just don't
talk about that enough. I mean I do because I
love Carl Rogers and I love the idea of self
connection and the idea of existential loneliness that they were
the Humanistic Psychologist wrote about. Yeah, but I'm not everyone,
you know, most you know, I think that this idea

(15:49):
needs to be talked about more, especially in the workplace,
you know, and people shouldn't be ashamed for you know,
there are people who go forty years, right, and it's
like I almost you'd almost expect after forty years you'd
get like word with something aspect of you know something.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
Yeah, all of a sudden you wake up and it
doesn't do it for you anymore, and you look in
the mirror and you're like, who am I? Who is
this job? Which one has changed? Is it me? Or
is it the career? And so a lot of their
soul searching is figuring out how much of it is them,
you know, And that's a tough conversation to have with
yourself how.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
Much work have you done in the field of job crafting,
because they often say in the organizational psychology literature that
if that happens, then you should job craft yourself out
of it.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
What do you mean by job I love jargon, and
I love making people explain jargon.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
Well, changing the role in a way that matches who
the new you. You know, like if you're a teacher.
Let's say you're a teacher, but you're really feeling like
you want to be an actor, you know, you reframe
your job as like, I'm not a teacher anymore. I'm
like going to be like, you know, performing for my students.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
I'm a performer of knowledge. Yeah, I mean there's some
kind of mental gymnastics you can do. But I think
you want to be honest with yourself about whether you've
now fallen into what I call passion roles, which are
just things you love to do, but no one's going
to give you a RaSE for that. You know, you
can become the teacher who also runs the drama club,
but that's probably just some extra side gigage that you're
not getting paid for, So be careful of that kind

(17:09):
of slippery state of job crafting yourself into roles that
people don't respect as much as you think they ought to.
I tend to be very cynical about all these kinds
of things if people will still pay you the same grade.

Speaker 3 (17:21):
Okay, good?

Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, because I was gonna say, like, you shouldn't always
care what other people think, right, And sometimes it takes
some big risks, you know, to comsplutely change professions. Yeah,
h torn in between places?

Speaker 3 (17:35):
Are you taking on too many roles at work?

Speaker 2 (17:37):
Switching tests or stuck between What does it mean to
be like stuck between two paths at work?

Speaker 1 (17:42):
Yeah? So I think when I think of someone who's
torn between places, there's like two things. There's I'm taking
on way too many roles like official job titles, and
my research has shown that like the average person has
like ten, you know, and a lot of these they're
doing for visibility purposes because they think they will get
a raise and they don't actually to raise for it.
But then there's this the daily low level task switching

(18:03):
problem that we all suffer from, where we don't know
how to organize our work into like the right kind
of spheres, or we're being you know, phone calls or
text messages from the boss pulling us away from our work,
which is different than the kind of structural role based problem.
And I think people probably suffer a little bit from both,
but they're very different kinds of problems with different solutions.

Speaker 4 (18:23):
Attached to them.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
Can you elaborate what are the different solutions attached to them?

Speaker 1 (18:32):
For sure? I think you know for the first one.
Taking on these roles, there's often this mismatch between what
people in power who give you raises and promotions think
you ought to be doing and the roles that you
take on because a colleague or a collaborator tells you
they're a good idea, And I think you really want
to kind of square that circle, close that communication gap

(18:52):
when you're hired, when you're actually interviewing and talk about
those different roles. There's a lot of slippage going on
at work and a lot of increase in high Yeah,
sounds really gross when I say it that way. Goolipage.
There's a lot of roles with fancy titles, you know,
cheap Happiness officer and things like that, a lot of
c suite titles, lots of kind of Yeah, that is

(19:16):
a dying role sorry, CDOs, you know that are in
the moment that people are taking on that don't maybe
have the prestige or their career growth that they think
that they should have, and they're lured into taking these things,
so they need to have real conversations like is that
actually are those roles worth it? Also, stop the volunteer work, folks.
My research shows that people spend about twelve hours a

(19:38):
week doing volunteer work that they are not getting paid
to do at work. And this isn't like fun volunteering
on the side. These are roles that someone else is
probably getting paid to do that you're now volunteering and
stepping in. And I think that is a little bit
of a disease we all have in the workplace right now,
this business of volunteering for other people's jobs in an

(19:58):
effort to get visibility for it.

Speaker 3 (20:00):
Is that maybe like, is that related being too nice?

Speaker 1 (20:03):
It is? Everything's related. It's got to being too nice
if we're all just bigger assholes.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
Now wait, but there's truth to that. In my opening
New Year and New episode, remember Michael, I said my
New Year's resolution this year is too over my agreeableness
levels thirty You do I think I'm doing a pretty
good job this way.

Speaker 1 (20:20):
When you're too agreeable, you over promise all kinds of
totally it actually ends up biting you in the.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
Ass was too high, it was too something had to change,
you know. So how about the under oh no, let's
go to runner up?

Speaker 3 (20:32):
Runner up?

Speaker 2 (20:32):
Do you always feel like you keep coming in second?

Speaker 3 (20:35):
Wow? That one hit, right, ship, that one hit, that
one hit Okay, So that's it. That's the thing the
kids say these days.

Speaker 1 (20:44):
They hit hit Yeah, that was emotional things hit yeah.

Speaker 3 (20:47):
Wow, personally resonant. Okay. So what do you do if
you feel that way at work? What can you do?
I mean, you can't like force your way to number one.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
You can't, but you probably peace with it, you know. So.
So I surveyed hires and promoters and then also runner
ups for that chapter, and there are these huge kind
of gaps between them, and one of the big reasons
why people fall into the runner up category is because
they missed a role like two roles ago that they

(21:16):
ought to have taken. And a lot of them are
what are they get what's called battlefield promotion in the
moment when there's a crisis at work, they were promoted
to a position that they probably weren't quite ready for
and it was super flattering and they took it, and
then they can't climb up from that role, in part
because they haven't filled in the sort of back roles

(21:37):
that they needed to even get to that spot. And
so they think, because I have the role, now I
need to get promoted to the next role. They're qualified,
but everyone looking at their resume is going there's a
bunch of gaps. There's a bunch of things they needed
to do about four steps ago that no one told
them was necessary because they wanted them for this battlefield promotion.
That is, that's kind of a terrifying thought, because now

(22:00):
should I go back in time and fill in those
roles or what exactly should I do to kind of
fix that? That's the tough conversation.

Speaker 2 (22:07):
Definitely, Well, this seems very related to the next one,
the underappreciated star. I mean, sometimes you keep coming in
a second, but you know that you're the best, right,
you know, and like, what do you do if you're like,
what do you do if you're you are crushing it
and no one's noticing?

Speaker 1 (22:23):
Yeah, now you know this is diagnosing yourself as an
underappreciated star is really tough, and I have a pretty
high bar of like, are you actually a star? No? Really, no, really,
you know, these folks tend to know that they're stars
and they're under appreciated, and they're not just runner ups.
Because there's a lot of carrot dangling. There's a lot
of people are dangling a carrot in front of them,

(22:45):
going carrot dangling.

Speaker 3 (22:48):
Or dangling Karen dad dangling.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
I'm a California and I have a weird non you know,
regional dialect accent. Yeah. So they often work for companies
that say, once we get the next amount of investment,
we'll be able to promote you, or will be able
to give you that you know, share of whatever, or
will be able to hire the staff that you need.
So a lot of these folks are actually working for

(23:10):
startup companies. You know, they want to do something new
and exciting, and then they're kind of handed five hundred
different things and it never actually comes to fruition, and
so they sort of realize, I'm a star here, but
I'm underappreciated in the sense that they can never compensate
me exactly for what I want. Or they work in
an industry where you know, there's just so few resources

(23:33):
at the top that there's a whole bunch of undappreciated
stars kind of at the middle level, and only one
or two can never actually climb up. Oh boy, that yeah,
I mean, I think we all know what it feels
like to see a colleague get raised, get a raise
of promotion because they got an offer elsewhere.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
And well, what if they get a razor promotion because
they steal all your work?

Speaker 1 (23:53):
Then they need to go back to my first book
and read the chapter on the credit stealer. You know,
I wrote these so that they could talk to each other.

Speaker 2 (24:01):
They really are in tandem, and they are they are yeah, yeah, yeah,
And that's true because you raised a point like you're
wary of people's self diagnosing as the under pursuing star,
because that isn't a type of toxic person who constantly
feels underappreciated. That's vulnerable narcissism, you know. So how do
you know if you're a vulnerable narcissist or you actually

(24:21):
are being underappreciated.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
Yeah, I really think the only way to do that
is to actually put yourself out there and find out
who the relevant social comparison. Other is, we often pick
the wrong people. We pick the person who's in the
office next to us who seems to get more than
we do, but we don't actually know who's in the
real pool of talent we're being compared to. So you want,
you know, a lesson in humility and a reality check
about your starhood. Put yourself out there, network with people

(24:46):
who hire in your field, show them your resume, and
find out who those others actually are that you're being
compared to. And most of us are pretty off base.
I mean, I know my grad students compare themselves to
others in our program, not to the thirty other people
who are going to be applying for jobs at the
same time as then, because they don't even know those
folks exist. Layer onto that the complexity that there is

(25:07):
no static pool in the job market. It's iterative. It's
constantly changing, and even hirers don't know who's in it
all the time. It's like, you know, a slime mold
that goes in weird directions. So it is very difficult
to know whether you're a star relative to the right people.
But that should be a question you should be asking yourself.

Speaker 3 (25:24):
That's a little self reflection doesn't hurt.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
It's hard though people don't like you know, Okay, am
I really a star? Let me compare myself to people
who hold my roles at the top organizations. You know,
what do they look like on paper? Do? I? Am
I really as good as those people?

Speaker 3 (25:40):
It's a really good point. It's a really good point.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah, Okay, Well, you talk about a lot of situations
where people really want to change their jobs, They want
to get out of there, but they want to find
something that's more in line with their values. And I
actually see your research as fitting within a larger umbrella
of research called meaningful work, which I is really hot
right now. And as you know obviously, but I consider

(26:04):
as I was reading your book, I was like, this
fits nicely with that gene dot ins and all that.
So what's your own spit on this? How people really
can find things they're more in line with their values?
And how do you know when it's time to quit
and time to grit?

Speaker 3 (26:18):
Whndy grit? And when do you quit?

Speaker 1 (26:20):
Yeah? The question right, I think you have to stop
thinking about your job is something that happens to you,
and stop using this passive language when you talk about
the work place like my boss did this to me,
or this happened to me, and think about it like
you would any other relationship. And you know, the first
step before you leave anyone or before you make any
big moves is to dive into the psychological underpinnings of

(26:44):
your own happiness. So stop making lists about sort of
do I want to work from home, what city do
I want to be in, what kind of money do
I want to make, and really try to understand the
psychological underpinnings of why you're miserable here. I also think
you need to dive into what makes you stressed out
at work. And in this book, I have this daily
stress test where I have people think about what are

(27:05):
they anticipating stressing them out, and then at the end
of the day write down what actually stresses them out.
Most of the time, what we anticipate is not the
thing that stressed us out at the end of the day,
because we're good at planning for those things. It's the
unanticipated stressors that actually eat away at our psychological wellbeing
and our physical health. So if you collect a little
bit of data on yourself, you're going to know what's

(27:26):
actually triggering your stress responses and harming your sleep and
making you yell at people at home. You know, you
need to collect that data to understand why, and then
think about your career as you want any other type
of relationship where you have to ask these tough questions.
I think in terms of when is it okay to stay?
When is it okay to go? You need to collect

(27:46):
some data on your ups and downs before you make
that decision. And most of us, our memories are pretty
bad when it comes to what makes us happy at
work and for how long are we happy? We need
to collect that data daily, as if we were in
any other kind of relationship. Intermittent reinforcement that can really
keep you kind of anchored to something, being embedded in
the workplace, having an easy commute, you know, friends at work.

(28:10):
Those things keep you embedded. So you've got to pull
apart all of those things before you make the decision,
and don't just make it about listing what you want
and what you don't have, and you know, and get
over the grass is greener thing. Grass is never greener.
Grass is usually grass. You know, it's the dimensions on
which you need to learn that you want to satisfice
on that a lot of people don't do the soul

(28:31):
searching on on Instagram.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
I keep seeing the same thing over and over again,
which is supposed to make people feel better, but it
actually does make me feel better. It says a lot
of people want what other people have, but they're not
willing to do what it takes to be that person,
or they wouldn't even like it, you know, the rest
of the person's life they had it, you know, something
like that. And I think there's there's a really large

(28:54):
grain of truth to that.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
Yeah. I mean I looked at people who are promoted
and people who just narrowly missed a promotion, and I
ask those that second group, you know, what does this
other group have that you want? And I ask the
same of that group, and they always think their lives
are much better than they actually are after promotion. They
even think they're getting more work life balance and more
free time after a promotion, which is crazy to me.
But I think people think they're just going to get

(29:17):
more of all the good things after they get the
new job, after they get the promotion, and they're not
actually asking themselves, what am I willing to give up?
Should I take on this role? And what are the
ways in which I would fail at this new role?
And do I have what it takes to make sure
that doesn't happen. Those are questions you should be asking
in the interview stage as well. But this loss frame

(29:37):
is really important. What are you willing to give up
if you change careers or if you're to go for
this new company? You know, if you want me to
take on this new role that means saying no to
my coworkers. How am I going to protect myself from
the social repercussions of that, the status loss of that?
Would I now have to say no to people who
are used to hearing yes from me. Walk through those
kind of lost frame questions before you think that it's

(29:59):
just going to be much better to have that higher
status role or that new job in that new organization.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
It feels like no matter what your fantasy, your dream
is like, if you get it in reality, you're it's
never quite like you imagined it, you know. Like I
keep thinking of like all these famous people, like who
they dis like. I'm trying to think of some examples.
What's the guy from a well.

Speaker 3 (30:19):
Al write it?

Speaker 1 (30:20):
Then?

Speaker 3 (30:20):
What's his name?

Speaker 1 (30:21):
Oh god, Jim Carrey carry Jim Carrey.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
You know, I saw an interview with him. He's like, wow,
fame is totally not Yeah, yeah, it's not where it's
at now. He's trying so hard to deprogram and.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
To just be an exist He became an artist, right.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
I don't know what he's he's he's no self now.
Apparently he's like I saw an interview. He's like, I
am nothing now, I am nothing. I am not Jim Carrey,
and I do not identify with Jim Carros.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
It's very existential.

Speaker 3 (30:48):
So anyway, I think there's a deep truth there. It
just doesn't.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
It's it's never quite what it seems. And then and
then like the day after you get it, like it doesn't.
It's like okay, now what you know. It's like you're
still living, just moving on.

Speaker 1 (31:00):
You have to eat lunch and get coffee. We also
think we're all going to get better over time, and
we pretty much just stay the same. We just get different,
you know, we don't become more moral or more interesting hotter, No,
because you break up, we don't get I also, but
I think it's just my makeup game is improving. It's
like you make my makeup is not improving. Your hair

(31:23):
is good though whatever your I got a haircut todays
just today slid. Some of us, like you do, get
hotter over time, but most of us do the same
or get worse.

Speaker 2 (31:34):
I feel you, you know, well, but okay, not just
not just that demean of life, but just like it
just feels like, I mean, don't people grow more? Like
you said morally for instance, And that just shocked me
that you, like you had a very cynical view of that.
You're like, You're like, yeah, most people don't grow more,
they stay the same.

Speaker 3 (31:52):
Is that true? Like, I mean, I would think of
my own self. I think, like I cringe when.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
I think of some of the things, you know, things
the way I treat the things I've said when I
was nineteen years old, you know, like I hope I.

Speaker 1 (32:01):
Because the downwards social past self comparisons are salient, right,
It's easier for us to think of all the ways
in which we've gotten better. It's hard for us to
think of all the ways in which we've gotten worse.
And I actually think when it comes to job change,
think about parallel changes you work. You know, I used
to have X and now I want why or I
used to be x and now I want to be hy.

(32:22):
People will just be super aspirational in ways that are
actually pretty tough to live up to those standards.

Speaker 3 (32:27):
Oh that's interesting.

Speaker 1 (32:28):
You know, I think our day to day lives pretty
much stay the same. You get up, you have coffee,
you write your tweet, you go to work. At no
point in there are you thinking to yourself, I'm just
going to completely change all my moral foundations. You know,
we're not that deep at the end of the day,
and I think we just go about our lives and
we're pretty consistent. We're much more consistent over time than

(32:50):
I think we think we are in terms of what
irritates us, what makes us happy, what tastes good, what
tastes bad. You know, how motivated we are to exercise,
It takes a lot to really disrupt that flow and
to make us completely different people.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
Is that why we really gravitate towards these aberrant people
that they get so famous and yeah for their like
yeah for.

Speaker 1 (33:10):
Their ice baths or you know, in Silicon Valley we
used to call them weekend warriors. You know, they would
go all in on these crazy things. I think they're
fascinating to watch because most of us could never actually
do that, or we try it for five minutes and say, yeah,
there's a reason why I don't, you know, have an
ice tub in my backyard. It's actually quite uncomfortable and painful.

Speaker 4 (33:29):
Also change his heart.

Speaker 3 (33:35):
But there is an idea that those people are better humans.

Speaker 1 (33:38):
They're not better humans.

Speaker 2 (33:39):
I don't think they are, but there's this, there is
this that's how we treat them on Instagram right where
we treat these examples of people who like extremely focus
on changing their bodies, you know, as like the paragon.
You know, I would almost go so far to dare
I use the phrase bro culture. Yeah, it's like I
feel like there is a culture on Instagram of like

(34:00):
treating that.

Speaker 3 (34:02):
And that's not moral development. That's you wake up at
five am.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah yeah, that's and you're you think you're better than
everyone else because you woke up at five and all
the suckers are still sleeping.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
It's the new status dimension. Actually, so I study sartorial
cues of status, so the clothes we wear. It's kind
of fascinating. So the new version of showing off that
you're wealthy is having a six pack, It's not having
a Louis Vuitton bag because you know, can like anybody
can buy that with a credit card. So the minute
it becomes mainstream, it's no longer dimension of status. You know,

(34:37):
certain brands of clothing that have no labels on them
are recognized by one percent of the population as being
high status. So that's the whole thing. But now having
an incredible fitness, especially into your fifties, is a status
symbol because that's very difficult to achieve if you don't
have money. We are misaligned on what actually matters, but
we pay attention a lot to these kind of visible

(34:58):
cues of status that aren't, you know, legitimate cues of status,
but it's just it's rare and it's associated with having wealth.

Speaker 2 (35:06):
Well, you kind of nailed by just even seeing the
word status. I mean, we don't even need to be
focused so much like who where's the role saying that
that is what you have to be obsessed with? But
that is what humans are obsessed with. How are you
familiar with Jeffrey Miller's work on virtue signaling products? He
wrote a whole book called Spent. I know that I
really liked the book Spent, and not many people.

Speaker 3 (35:25):
I don't know I have read it. I don't know
if it was a.

Speaker 2 (35:27):
New York Times bestseller or anything, but I remember reading
it when it came out, and it really tickled my
nerdy side, you know, and it explained a lot, you know,
like college degrees, like, yeah, we want we want to
do things that are hard to fake, you know, for
for for meeting signals or whatever. We're obviously talking about
more than just meeting signals right now. But but yeah,
and then God sad I think he used to write

(35:48):
about that.

Speaker 3 (35:48):
Do you did you have a homo? Was a homo something? Uh?

Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yeah, No, I'm like drawing, like I.

Speaker 3 (35:58):
Think all of this money.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Do you know that book? It's about status? I mean, yeah,
it's fascinating how we cycle through different status cues over
the history of humanity. So it used to be skinny,
and then it was fat, and then it was skinny
and then it was fat again.

Speaker 3 (36:14):
When was it When was it fat?

Speaker 2 (36:15):
You mean during like maybe like the the Renaissance era
it was, but it's.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
Still fat in some cultures where there's very little food,
you know, so it's very much trully determined. But what
is rare, what is hard to actually achieve?

Speaker 2 (36:28):
Well, people in America are horrible about that. You know,
just watching celebrities who've lost a lot of weight, and
even the hate they get for like selling out their
fat you know, audience, you know, it's like, how dare you?

Speaker 3 (36:41):
I saw this.

Speaker 2 (36:42):
I was recently just reading this article about this famous
celebrity who did that. She lost like thirty pounds and
she showed her new body. She got hate for that.
You get hate for every but of course you get
hate for being fat too, right, So it's like, you
can't if you're in the public eye, you can't You
almost can't win, you know, right.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
You can't win. And so it zimp. It was a
status thing because it's very expensive to get ozempic unless
you actually have diabetes. But now and so a lot
of celebrities are taking ozempic or something like it to
lose a lot of weight. And that was high status.
Now one in eight Americans are on something like ozempic. Really,
so now it's actually being knocked down. Is like a

(37:19):
low status thing to do to lose weight. So with
just in the past twelve months, we've seen weight loss drugs.
I don't know if you remember this during COVID, if
you were able to have a COVID test early on
in the pandemic, before they were common, and you showed
the results of your COVID test. I mean, Heidi Klum
got completely destroyed on Instagram. I believe it was her

(37:39):
because she showed she had taken a COVID test and
people were like, those aren't widely available. Stop flexing with
your your legitimate COVID test. You know, so if it's rare,
it counts as status. That's the only dimension that determines
its humans. Humans.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
You conducted a massive study. I mean we're talking like
forty thousand or.

Speaker 1 (37:59):
Something how many people for job therapy. Yeah, for job therapy,
thousands and thousands of people. I lost track of how many.
I don't think it was forty, but each chapter had
you know, thousands at least.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
Yeah, no, I know, I'm like, Holy week. That's like
just so our listeners know. That's a lot for scientific studies.
My yeah, just PhD districs.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
For this book too. I haven't even published those findings
elsewhere yet.

Speaker 3 (38:23):
It almost doesn't matter anymore. Yeah, yeah, that's true. The
book is, you know, that's what matters.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
I mean, obviously, a tenure committee would disagree with that,
but luckily and past that. But luckily you can do
whatever you want and you could call it a joint
right now on the psychology podcast like they do in
Rogan and you wouldn't get fired.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
Fine.

Speaker 2 (38:38):
Yeah yeah, so uh, because you studied data from people
who hire, promote, and fire people, so a wide range
of things. So let's here's some secrets that you found. One,
how can you make a resume more appealing?

Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yeah? I think this one's pretty easy. First off, if
you have a bunch of overlapping dates on your resume,
which people have they're doing gigage, you have to let
those different roles talk to each other. You need to
explain how this role at this job is related to
this role at this other job. And people think that
more is more when it comes to these things. Just

(39:15):
say how leading this team was related to this other role.
I think, you know, showing role overlap and just using
that language is really important. You know. I think people
debate over whether or not you want to use a
photograph or not. Most people say no, you know, have
those dates on your resume, show the languages that you speak.
People are not doing this really weirdly, They're not actually showcasing,

(39:39):
you know, all the languages that they have spoken over
various parts of their lives. There there's been a lot
of whitewashing of resumes, and I think that might be
why that's happening.

Speaker 3 (39:51):
Washing.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
I think it, well, there it is now, because was
it if I'm not going to get canceled. Okay, luckily
it was in a published paper, So I will say that,
you know, just kind of showcasing all those things. I
think you know, there's certain things you don't want to
keep on your resume, all of those gigages that aren't
related to your actual job. Hires are very cynical about

(40:15):
side hustles, and so if you have a side hustle
that overlaps with your main employment, you better explain that
hustle and how it's actually.

Speaker 3 (40:22):
Related, especially if it's only fans.

Speaker 1 (40:24):
Especially or depending on your industry, that might be the
thing that gets I share a name with a dead
porn star, so I have to say that again. Yes,
Tessa West was a porn star, but not you, not me,
just another Tessa West.

Speaker 2 (40:40):
I almost I thought you're saying you.

Speaker 1 (40:45):
She used to be a porn star. And it was
a joke that fell very flat and the people came
up to be a conference once and said I'm so
proud of you for owning your truth. And that was
just a different test. She was born days apart from me.
She died of a heroin overdose, but there was some
overlap there.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
But I will say that when I google Tessa Wes,
you are the first thing that comes up.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
Yeah, did a lot of work together together?

Speaker 3 (41:06):
You've done somewhere.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
Her death date used to be on Google with my photos.
Oh my gosh, we took some of that.

Speaker 2 (41:12):
Oh okay, I'm glad I made my joke because I
found out a lot more about you. So networking, whom
to network?

Speaker 3 (41:20):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (41:21):
So can you have a good social sense about that? Like,
isn't it bad to network with like dark triad people,
for instance, even if they're going to help you.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Oh that's a good question. I think you might not
know they're a dark triad when you first start out networking.
But I would actually say there's no one way to network.
You know, every chapter is about a different type of goal,
and so should you network within your industry or whatever?
But I think I would say that if you have
systematic questions for those dark triad people for which they

(41:52):
will give you useful answers, then why discount them entirely.
They can share parts of the hidden curriculum with you.
If they can tell you what nobody told them, what
happened at work, you know, you can learn dark triad
people exist at work, and so if they have a
certain kind of experience it's interesting, or people have worked
with them. I say, don't discount the evil people from

(42:14):
your networking because evil people are at work, So why
not learn from them in some capacity? And I'll be
able to avoid them once you take the job, So
why avoid them in the networking phase.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
Okay, let's show dark tried people some more love. Is
what you're saying. They kind of they're underappreciated.

Speaker 1 (42:29):
Or allow them to have utility For us, it sounds
much more center.

Speaker 3 (42:32):
They're underappreciated.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
Well that's funny, yeah, because they're very very utilitarian, and yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
They're your kiss up kicked downers at work, so you
might encounter them.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
So like dark tried people, they tend to love networking.
You know, they just love it. It's like it's like breakfast
for them. You know, they coffee and then networking, you know,
and who and alliances they think very strategically. That doesn't
come as naturally to me and to kind of I
don't think like oh if I, but I know people
who are there, like oh if I. If you everything

(43:00):
as a everyone is a Pallen and in their chess game,
like if I friends with this person, then now that'll
unlock this person after two more. The celebrity you know, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:09):
They're the ones that give networking a bad reputation and
make us feel dirty and cringey by doing it, doing
it for that purpose, not to actually learn real things
about a potential.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
Job, but we can gain from that from being friends
with them. Yeah, what about white triad people? This is
a I don't know if you're familiar with my construct, tell.

Speaker 1 (43:28):
Us all about white triad and I.

Speaker 3 (43:29):
Will tell you whit whit triad?

Speaker 1 (43:30):
WHOA wait did you say white?

Speaker 3 (43:33):
I'm saying right. You know.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
It's interesting though, some people actually say it's racist to
do the wark light verse dark and I'm like.

Speaker 3 (43:39):
How is that racist?

Speaker 1 (43:41):
Light?

Speaker 3 (43:41):
How is hight?

Speaker 2 (43:42):
Like?

Speaker 3 (43:42):
How's the contract the contrast of light versus dark?

Speaker 1 (43:45):
Like it all the presence of Twitter.

Speaker 3 (43:49):
People are like, that's racist.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
You should rename rename your construct it shouldn't be the
light triad.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
It's like tele a physicist to rename that, well yeah, yeah,
the cosmos.

Speaker 2 (43:58):
Actually me get that out of my But we call
it the light triad and to contrast it with the
dark triad, and it includes the three components of the
three members of the Light Triad are Contianism, which treating
people as an end in themselves, not as a means
to an end. It's a nerdy sort of counterpart to
machivalianism on the Dark triad. And then we have faith
in humanity, really believing in the fundamental goodness of humans.

(44:20):
And then we have humanism treating every individual with dignity
and respect. And it has been catching some traction in
terms of research. A lot of research studies have extended
our work and replicated it. That's important, No, it's pretty exciting.
Actually we're replicating all over the place. And secondly, a
lot of people are taking our work into appoint in

(44:41):
the organizations to say, how can we have more Light
Triad leaders because there really is a gender difference. In
our research. We found striking, striking gender differences in the
light versus Dark triad. Whereas like we're when I say striking.
I mean like striking, like you can't like dark tride
are men d percent of high we're talking about the

(45:02):
high white triad group or women?

Speaker 3 (45:04):
Yeah, what is going on?

Speaker 1 (45:06):
Yeah? I mean do you think there's a selection that
if you're a dark triad and you're man, it's just
much easier to get ahead.

Speaker 3 (45:12):
Oh, interesting point.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
It's very tough if you're a dark Triad woman to
climb to the top and become a CEO. To be
really you know, I think you're going to get punched
down so many times it's not impossible. But by the
time you get I think that we we select out
for people who are kenter stereotypical. Especially there's a lot
of research on this in gender. You're going to face

(45:35):
a lot of backlash if you're a woman doing those
things in ways that men do not face that same backlash.
So I think there might be a bit of a
selection bias just who's able to climb up to the
top with those trades, And you might find equal in
high school kids or something like that, like before people
become careers. I'd be curious to see if those gender
differences exist in the youth or is it just once

(45:56):
you're within an organization and you look to see what
people are selecting on. It's interesting to think about. I
just did a podcast on personality hires and if you
would say that light tryad people are more likely to
be personality hires because they're the glue that can bring
teams together. We need people engage, we need more people
like this around. But you know, they also obviously have

(46:19):
to have those hard skills or they're going to go
through that kind of imposter syndrome and you know, kind
of feel low status at work. But yeah, I think
that we under emphasize the importance of having those traits
and to see that people are realizing that it's important
for leaders to have them and to not be snakes
in suits is great to see.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
That was a good book.

Speaker 2 (46:42):
Yeah, and you've brought up imposter syndrome, and it's interesting
there's two types of imposters. Of people with impostors who
who report having imposter syndrome, they're actually dark triad imposter
syndrome reporters who they only use it as a strategic
presentation strategy. Yeah, to regulate your view of them so
that they can get away with more crap because you
have a empathy for them. Oh you you didn't do

(47:04):
anything at work.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
Self deprecation can be used in very interesting strategy.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
But then and then there are the types who are
more genuine low self esteems, you know. But anyway, we
identified in research these two different types.

Speaker 3 (47:18):
So I just wanted to bring up that little nuance.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
We should collect some data. I feel like I tried
with my stuff and see where people are kind of falling,
you know, in these kind of career trajectories.

Speaker 3 (47:28):
Honestly, love, that's just a twelve item scale.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
Give it to me. I'll put it on my website.
I'll add it right now to my call tricks as
I'm live, collecting data on the type. Get more data
all out, my lab manager, do the modification for the
I r B right after this.

Speaker 3 (47:42):
You serious, you're not going to get like my hopes
up here?

Speaker 4 (47:44):
Right?

Speaker 1 (47:45):
You're not sent it to me?

Speaker 3 (47:46):
Because that's really exciting. Yeah cool.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
We would love to collaborate with you. Yeah, that's that's amazing.
Any sort of as we in the interview today, any
sort of last secret advice you can give people trying
to have a competitive doing yea, or find more meaning
at work.

Speaker 1 (48:03):
Take it slow more is not more. If you're applying
for fifty jobs a week, you're doing it wrong. Everything
needs to be careful and strategic and send in those
tailored resumes and cover letters. I think the number one
mistake people make is they hit the easy apply button online.
No one's reading those applications, by the way, like that
is just a thing that One thing I learned from

(48:25):
hiring managers and also just professional recruiters is they often
have a quota of how many people they need to
apply for a job for them to get paid. And
that quote is pretty arbitrary. So if you see something
that seems very easy to apply for, you're probably not
going to get interviewed. You need to take the kind
of longer wind your road of networking, tailoring, taking your time,

(48:47):
and you should be applying for, like, you know, two
to five jobs a week. That's the right way to
do it, and it should feel much more bespoke when
you're doing it, so you know, slower is better, take
your time, and if you're having an existential crist since
you're in good company, it's okay. Doesn't mean the world
will end. Do a little soul searching. I got lots
of quizzes at the front end of all of these

(49:07):
chapters to see if it helps you kind of figure
out if this is me. A little bit of self
labeling I think also helps too, But but don't feel
bad about it. We all go through this. I mean,
I've had like fifty career crises, so it's okay.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
Last question, which is everyone wants to know, how do
you still look like you're twenty five years old?

Speaker 1 (49:25):
I think lights Okay, is.

Speaker 3 (49:28):
It the baby face? What is it like? How do
you still like two year old woman?

Speaker 1 (49:32):
I'm saying you have one hundred and five on the inside.

Speaker 3 (49:36):
I know what.

Speaker 2 (49:36):
I get that, I get that. I re resonate with that. No,
I'm so appreciative that you came on the Psychology podcast
today and.

Speaker 1 (49:43):
Now I feel like you need to hug your chill
people at the end. Yeah, I feel it's like a
rite of passage for it is it is? I need
to get one of these from my office too, when
everyone comes and cries and I can just tell them
to take a chill post.

Speaker 2 (49:54):
Yes for your students, Yes, yeah, yes, thank you so much,
thank you.

Speaker 4 (50:00):
What's what? What's what?

Speaker 1 (50:02):
On?

Speaker 4 (50:03):
What what what what