On Being Human w/ Cory Muscara

This week Scott is joined by author, former monk, spiritual mindfulness guide, and friend Cory Muscara. Scott and Cory discuss the value of self-connection, whether or not there is a "true self", and the role of mindfulness in the self actualization journey.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I stand strong in my contention that if you hate
yourself into change, then you're just going to get a
future moment that's held together by the thread of hate
and doesn't have much range for you to exist outside
of that.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Today, I have the great pleasure of chatting with Corey
Muscara on the podcast. Corey is a teacher, writer, keynote speaker,
former monk, and author of the book Stop Missing Your Life.
Corey is also a personal friend and spiritual guide of mine.
I have found his teaching is incredibly helpful in my
own self actualization journey. We had a great discussion and
even gentle debate about topics of mutual interest, such as

(00:41):
whether there is a true self, the value of self connection,
and the role of mindfulness in the self actualization journey.
This was a truly rich conversation with lots of insights
that I'm sure you will benefit from. So that further
ado I bring you Corey Muscara. Corey Muscara, it is
so great to have you on the Psychology Podcast again.

Speaker 3 (01:02):
Thanks Scott. It's good to be back four years.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
Oh wow, has it really been four years since your
book came out.

Speaker 3 (01:09):
Late twenty nineteen. I think was the last one years on.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
So much feels like it's changed since then. How you
changed since then? What has your own inner growth journey
been like the last four years?

Speaker 3 (01:19):
I got married.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
During that time, I did know that I got to
explore a lot of who Corey is in relationship and
how Corey makes decisions from a place of alignment versus misalignment.
What are the particular patterns and conditionings that Corey has
that can lead him to make decisions that might not

(01:43):
be from a deeper place of alignment, but out of
patterns of conditioning, codependency, even people pleasing. So there's been
it's felt like a big strip down the last four years,
and I think a lot of us have gone through that.
With the pressure cooker of the pandemic, you have so much,
so much energy that's forcing you to go inward. It's

(02:07):
kind of impossible not to see stuff. And you can
either suppress that and create more anxiety or numbness around it,
or you can let it cook you and open you up.
And I was fortunate to be cooked a bit. And Yeah,
so it's just been It's been a wonderful four years
and hard in many ways.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah, and being your friend I have seen some of
that journey in real time.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
Yeah, I appreciate your friendship during all of it, and
I appreciate your friendship in general, Scott. I just very
much love our talks all the time. And for those
listening on the outside that only get to see Scott
maybe through the podcast, this is one of the most
genuine humans I've ever met, and you give that much

(02:56):
more permission for me to express all the different layers
of myself with Yeah, with just a lot of compassion
and acceptance. So I've appreciated all the ways our friendship
has grown over the years and continues to and the
journeys and the learnings that we're figuring out together.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
Well. Likewise, absolutely likewise what you just said, and thank you,
thank you. You know, I do think that and I
will own this. I do think I am very human,
and I think that brings with it a lot of
pain and suffering. Just to be honest, I also have
trouble saying serious things without making them funny, so that's

(03:36):
another issue of mine. But but yeah, I am very
human and you are very human too, and I think
that's something we connect around both of us, don't Like,
I mean, you could say, we don't like bullshit, but
that's not quite it. We don't like inhuman that often
weds that often is correlated to the bullshit, isn't it.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
I think we both agree that we don't like personal
growth or healing paradigms that exclude aspects of our humanity
or add shame or guilt or any form of extra
attention to what it means to be human. And if
they're not moving you in a direction of more curiosity

(04:20):
or acceptance or space for the many dimensions of what
it means to be human, then they're probably leading you
down a path of more compartmentalization in refracturing, and subsequently
more suffering. And we both agree that we need to
take responsibility for the different layers of our humanness and
how they can create suffering for others. And so it's

(04:42):
not about denying accountability or responsibility, but we both just
seem to have an allergy to anything that creates more
shame around those layers and have just seen the futility
of paths that take that approach.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
That's very well say, I mean, like when did you
get so wise? Have you always like were you in
like middle school walking around being like you know, to
love is to accept myself. And all your friends are like, Corey,
shut up, like have you always been so wise? No?

Speaker 1 (05:16):
No, And I think I'll look I'll definitely look back
five years from now, ten years from now, and and
probably see the incompleteness of different perspectives. But yeah, I
mean when I when I was in college. You might
remember my journey from what I talked about last time

(05:37):
that I didn't get into this work for any noble reasons.
I started meditating because I was trying to impress a girl.
I had a hippie girlfriend in college. He was in
a meditation I wanted to think I was cool, so
I started meditating, and then she broke up with me.
And it was the pain of that breakup that actually
kind of troubled me into a deeper conversation with myself
and a deeper conversation with what are potential paths that

(06:00):
lead to happiness, peace, relief in her freedom. So it
started out as a superficial undertaking trying to impress a
girl I was interested in, and then the pain of
that led to some deeper inquiries. And I've just taken
my type a personality into those deeper inquiries and they

(06:23):
take me into newer and richer layers of my humanists,
and it's just been incredibly beautiful.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Richa who would break up with someone with those eyes?

Speaker 3 (06:36):
How am I supposed to respond to that?

Speaker 2 (06:38):
Okay, move on, So but I wasn't. I wasn't. I
wasn't hitting on you, by the way, But I'm just
saying if you were, I'm just saying, you know, who
would break up with Corey? I? Look, I've learned so
much from you and and and what I'm trying to
understand is what is what am I learning from you?

(07:00):
Because I'm a scientist, I learn a lot from my science,
but I get something from you that I don't get
from my science, and so I want to unpack that
today I learn I really do learn a lot from you,
And I get a lot from learning what you've learned
from your own experience and your own sort of really deep,

(07:21):
deep extensive investigation of your own inner experience. So there's
something that you're getting from that deep investigation that is
helping me learn how to live my life in a
way that I can't just simply get from reading peer
of you journal articles. So that I wanted to discuss

(07:41):
that today because it is so interesting, you know, Like
I tend to and that's rare for me. I tend
to like data. I tend to like you know, I'm like,
show me that if someone has a truth claim, I'm like, well,
that's a truth claim that should be tested, that should
be investigated. I sort of just take what you say
at phase value though, because it rings true. Often often

(08:04):
we'll get into for our free will disagreements later. But yeah,
what is it I get from What is it I'm
getting from you?

Speaker 1 (08:13):
Well, you tell me, And let's just start with maybe
like the basic observable things in your experience, which is
often the approach we take in meditation or these contemplative,
less scientific traditions where your understanding experience through direct observation.

(08:34):
At the beginning of the year, you did some of
my teachings that seem to have a particular impact on you,
and maybe you could start by describing.

Speaker 3 (08:43):
Profound what some of that shift was.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
Yeah, profound impact. I don't want to like sound like
an infomercial for Corey Muscow Muscao, but I profound impact.
I started off the new year with a full thirty
day knew you. What did you call it? What did
you call it?

Speaker 1 (09:01):
It's called the starting fresh, letting go, reconnecting, and looking forward.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah, well all those things, all those things is what
I did for through thirty days. And you know, there's
something really profound that that happens when you connect with
your yourself as it is day in and day out,
not you know, I don't. Don't you think a lot
of people connect with themselves and we all we all
do is like we connect with like the version of

(09:28):
ourselves that we like think we should be, or we
connected with the version of ourself that well, I guess
there's no other way to put that, that we should
think we should be. Yeah, like all the societal expectation.
There's there's like the societal expectations self, and then there's
like our actual experience. And and Carl Rogers wrote about
this a lot, and he called it congruency. And I

(09:49):
think a lot of what you were teaching was congruency.
I think Carl Rodgers would have been proud of you
if you took your course. The humanistic psychologists were all
about experience, and this is this is the reason why
I resonate to humanistic psychology and why I even call
myself a humanistic psychologist is because they were a rare
branch of psychology that wasn't all about the objective. They

(10:10):
were also about the subjective. And so, yeah, so taking
your course and really connecting with the actual experience in
a non judgmental way, in an accepting way, really helped
me accept a lot of sides of myself that I've
had shame over or that I've been trying to ignore
or repress. So that was super helpful in that regard.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah, yeah, And I know we had been talking about
that for probably a year leading up to that course
as well, just riffing on our own regular talks about
different aspects of ourselves that we might have more or
less acceptance for.

Speaker 3 (10:49):
And I think a big part.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
Of what I've learned as a human going through my
own inner experience and then as a teacher, is seeing
how much resistance, suffering shame we have toward different aspects
of ourselves. That's learned over the course of our life,

(11:14):
of parts of ourselves that are safe and okay to
share that might get us praise, connection, love, and other
parts of us that are less safe to share that
may be led to disconnection or being made fun of,
being hurt, and so some of that we're conscious of,
a lot of it we're not conscious of, but that

(11:35):
ends up creating It ends up creating an inner experience
that can often feel like we're at war with ourselves.
And when we're at war with ourselves, there's a lot
of noise in the system. We have a lot of
thoughts that are saying like, you should be this way
and you shouldn't be that way. Oh, now you're good
or now you're bad, and you get this bifurcation of good, bad,

(11:58):
right wrong, And I have just found that it creates
a lot of agitation and the system. Then, one thing
that I've found is that when there is a lot
of agitation in the system, it's hard to know what
voice to follow, and it's hard to even discern is
there even like a deeper voice or a deeper place

(12:21):
of alignment that can serve as the backdrop for decisions
that we make that might actually propel us toward greater
freedom in their spaciousness and ease versus more patterns of
control or tension suffering. And so a big part of
the work I do is helping first make an internal

(12:43):
container of permission for all the different parts of you
to exist do that, thank you, and not to necessarily express,
because there's some parts that have maybe been hurt, and
if they were to just spill over onto the world
that could cause harm to other people. But for us
to first have the capacity to hold internally with curiosity

(13:04):
and compassion and non judgment so that we're not one
becoming our own worst enemy and trying to like force
and will and hate ourselves into a better life, which
tends to be the path. And I stand strong in
my contention that if you hate yourself into change, then
you're just going to get a future moment that's like

(13:27):
held together by the thread of hate and doesn't have
much range for you to exist outside of that. And yeah,
you might have like a certain piece and contentment, but
it only exists within a very narrow alley of your
ego self expressing in a particular way that matches the
blueprint of some other facet of your ego self. And

(13:49):
so that isn't freedom to me or piece that actually
sounds like an inner prison.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
To hear that mic, it's this guy. The guy is
wise beyond his years. I mean that you really, you
really are. I mean it's like it's incredible amount of
wisdom you drop in like a couple of sentences. But
I think that a lot of your audience, you know,

(14:18):
So we in psychology we have internalizers and we have externalizers.
We have those that have this inner turmoil and sort
of externalized and projected onto others and cause a lot
of suffering and pain to others. And then there are
others that have a lot of that inner tourmoil and
they really keep that spotlight inward. In all honesty, I'm

(14:38):
a really big internalizer and I've noticed taking your I
feel like, for this episode, like it's not gonna work
if I'm not vulnerable. So so I'm just gonna go there.
Taking your uh course made me realize how much of
an internalizer I am, and I suspect a large majority

(14:58):
of your audience are internalizers. This is just based on
watching your audience. I mean, I know, I know, I
get I get a pulse, you know from the Instagram
you know things. Is It's like, I feel like a
lot of them are internalizers. I don't see them as big,
acting out kind of people. So so that really is
kind of your audience. Are these are people like neurotic internalizers?

(15:21):
Like me and and so you see a lot of it.
Do you have advice for people like us who really Yeah?
Mas Well called it like fighting a civil war within
yourself is how he phrased it. But for people who
feel like they're fighting, because I do feel like I
fight this war with him. I feel like there's one
side of me that wants growth, and I feel like

(15:42):
there's another side of me that wants to tear myself down.
And I feel like I'm constantly I have this duality,
like throughout the course of every single day, there two
are fighting with each other. Is that? Am I alone
in that? Like when you say, like like our large
sizeable number if your audience, do you hear something common
like that?

Speaker 1 (16:03):
Yes, I would say the majority have that tension.

Speaker 2 (16:09):
What the hell is that? Like? Why do I Why
is there asside of me that wants to like take
my successes and denigrate them in a way.

Speaker 1 (16:17):
Let me turn that toward you for a moment and
ask how has that pattern served you in some way
over the years.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
It helps me when I get too overwhelmed with emails,
I can say I can tear myself down and then
shut down and like they'll leave me alone.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
Okay, and so what does the tearing down look like
in a scenario like that.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
Well, the tearing downside comes when I'm overwhelmed and with
the world because I'm very sensitive, okay.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
And the tearing and the tearing down is toward you
or wanting to tear it all down externally.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah. No, it's a good question. Well, because I'm not
an externalizer saying I kind of take out my anger
or whatever. I just take it out of myself because
I don't want to cause harm to others. Yeah, so
that's what it is. I mean, you could see the
same path of someone who has my inner dialogue, but
who's an externalizer and just says like shut the fuck
up to people. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
Well, so this is one of the reasons why I
say until you are able to hold the discomfort of
life with presence and stillness, it will continue to push
you into patterns that frustrate you with unconscious reactivity. And

(17:38):
what you're seeing right now is like an uncomfortable experience
arises with the email. It's just it's a basic stimulus
and response stimulus. The feeling of like this is too much,
and that feeling of too much wants to relieve itself. Yeah,
And so for some people they relieve it by freezing.

(18:01):
We can numb and shut down and zone out. For others,
we can fight the world and we that's where people
go to get into patterns of self sabotage, maybe with
their business or their work, or just like f the world,
I can't do this, I knew this wouldn't work anyway,
and kind of blow it all up as a way
to relieve the pain. Or in this case, you might

(18:24):
direct it toward yourself and it's maybe more of like
an implosion, and that could be a form of trying
to like force yourself to buck up and do it,
or it could be just a form of you trying
to get rid of it by telling yourself, like this

(18:45):
can't work, or I knew it couldn't work. I get
angry at myself for not being good enough to do
it all to try to design in a way to
shift something that will cause this to relieve itself. And
and so I think there's a there's a lot of
reasons why people have particular patterns in relationship to overwhelm,

(19:08):
but there are usually some form of a learned survival
strategy that we we tend to lean toward one one
or or others. For some of us, I have more
of a freeze response where I just kind of like
get quiet, don't want to do anything, zone out.

Speaker 3 (19:25):
Yeah, and other people that have a.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
Freeze or a fawn or a fight a fun response
would be kind of It's almost like a people pleasing
dynamic where you go above and beyond right where you
might feel on relationship with with an abuser or someone
who's harmful to you, instead of fighting or freezing or

(19:48):
running away, you go, did you invent that?

Speaker 3 (19:52):
No? No, no, no, the four they're called the four fs.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
I've never heard of. Yeah, but I've never heard fawn before. Yeah,
that makes so much sense.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
I want to give credit where it's due. I believe
the person who created that also wrote the book Complex
PTSD from Surviving to Thriving. So for those who want
to check that out, but I'm not one hundred percent sure.

Speaker 3 (20:17):
Yes, it is that.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
It's the fourth F that's often misunderstood and a lot
of people fall into it. And you might even do
this with like at work people. It's not just like
in a difficult relationship where you just try to be
extra nice so that you get the response.

Speaker 3 (20:32):
You're looking for.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
You might do it with your colleagues when they're not
being nice to you. Instead of standing up for yourself
or going like I don't want to work here, you
try to abandon yourself by becoming some version that you
think they will like better, and you might get a
temporary reward hit from that, maybe they're less mean to you,
but you find like hours later, just like why do

(20:54):
I feel yucky? Why do I feel disconnected from myself?
So the faun is a very common pattern, but they're
all just reactions to stress, and that's why one of
the first things to be able to work with that
is can we hold the intensity within our nervous system

(21:14):
without immediately reacting, or at least to be able to
see what that to feel, what that tendency is to
react and then start to work at that edge instead
of immediately going into reaction.

Speaker 2 (21:28):
Well that's it, that's that's mindfulness.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
Yeah, that's where mindfulness comes in in a significant way
as like a foundation.

Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah, I bet you you're a fan of that quote.
You know, between stimulus and response is that choice to decide?
Who know who whoever came up with that quote, But well.

Speaker 1 (21:47):
You were the one who told me it wasn't Victor Frankel.
Wasn't when you were reviewing my book and you're like,
this actually isn't Victor Frankel. And since then, I've told
many people it's not Victor Frankel, and I receive.

Speaker 3 (21:56):
A lot of hate.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
People are very attached to Victor Frankel. Having said that quote,
I said some version of it.

Speaker 2 (22:01):
He said, so, I mean his yeah, the general sentiment.
But but that sentiment, I mean that it does encapsulate
a lot of a lot of a lot of mindfulness.
But your book, I think also encapsulates encapsulates a lot
of it. And the whole idea of like, you know,
like don't miss your life because it just it'll fly by.
It's just I'm coming up on my forty fifth birthday

(22:23):
in a couple of weeks, and I'm just like, what
the hell, like it just flew yeah, Oh my gosh,
I don't want to miss any more of it.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
And what are the times where you feel like you're
really plugged in and maybe not that it's slowing down,
but you feel like, yeah, it went fast, but I
was really there. Have you had experiences like that?

Speaker 2 (22:48):
Definitely? Definitely And it's usually surrounding, spending time, quality time
with friends and family. Yeah, and right, writing, writing, yeah, writing, writing, writing,
being in the full state with a book.

Speaker 3 (23:06):
Hmm yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:08):
So deep immersion, deep immersion. Now I've been finding because
I'm seeing it too. I'm I'm thirty four now, and
damn you catch bro. I know I'm trying to catch up,
but you just keep moving forward as well. But the
last four year, I mean ever since I hit thirty,
it's just a year, feels like six months.

Speaker 3 (23:29):
And it's it's wild.

Speaker 1 (23:33):
And but when I when I asked myself, like, was
I there the last year, the response is yes, I
couldn't have asked four more. I couldn't have asked to
show up. I mean, for certainly areas where I go
on automatic pilot. But I have a lot of space
for that just being part of the day to day
it is. It is as someone who spent a long

(23:56):
time in a monastery trying to perfect moment to moment awareness.
It is near impossible to sustain a continuity of presence
throughout the day. So I have a lot of space
for the going in and the out and getting triggered
and getting caught in those spirals for a while, but overall,
like the intention is to be here for my life

(24:16):
and it's moving fast. But I feel like I'm showing
up with as much sincerity as I can and I
think that's all we can do. We can ask, that's
all we can do.

Speaker 2 (24:29):
Are you Are you a fan of vickor toy Toy.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
I haven't gone into his work in a long time.
I do believe he's on something deep. He's in the channel,
He's in a particular channel that is, let's say, non egoic.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:50):
I think one of the things I've always I struggled
with a bit when I read some of it, Like
when I read The Power of Now was I felt
like he was transmitting some deep wisdom with not enough
uh footholds or rungs of the ladder to grasp onto
for how to move in that direction, which a lot

(25:11):
of teachers do, and and it's fine, it's a way
to teach you kind of just transmit the truth of
the thing that you're connected to. But I found that
I needed more like step by step instructions for how
to get there.

Speaker 2 (25:26):
I gotcha.

Speaker 3 (25:27):
Do you like that cartoling?

Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yeah? Yeah, I do. I do. I think there's a
lot of a lot of overlap. I want to read
this this uh text, I'm want to read a bunch
of texts that that I get daily from you. But
I don't feel special because you're sending these texts out
to all your followers. As you know, I really do

(25:53):
practice not being a victim to things or having holding
a victim mindset, and so I was really delighted to
see this text from you where you say, don't be
a victim to your past self, learn, be accountable, have
self compassion, and keep moving forward, very in line with

(26:13):
a new a new project that I'm working on, which
I'll announce soon. But this idea of don't be a
victim to your past self, is it possible for that
to be the case even if other people won't let
you move on from your past?

Speaker 3 (26:34):
Well that I believe to be.

Speaker 1 (26:37):
I would call it a deep spiritual practice where you
do the work of forgiving yourself when other people won't
forgive you. And it's important to first note that forgiving
yourself is not denying responsibility for your actions. I think
the first step to an actual healthy self forgiveness is

(26:59):
meeting deeply, honestly, and that often comes with a lot
of pain of where you were potentially unconscious and caused
harm and to feel the harm and the pain that
you cause for another person. Then that can happen in
friendship and partnership, at work just in general.

Speaker 3 (27:21):
And the willingness to meet that.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
Honestly and to see where what your actions have caused
is a big piece of what.

Speaker 3 (27:33):
Allows for learning and.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
Healing whatever part it was that created that harm. However,
there can be points in relationship, especially your partnership, where
you can take responsibility and you can have looked deeply
in yourself and you saw where you were unconscious and
where you created harm, and you're sorry for it deeply,

(28:00):
and you go through a lot of loops of showing
up for the other person, sharing where where you were
wrong and what you've learned and where things are different,
and they are still in the pain of it and
they want to keep you as the perpetrator so that
they can still dwell in the power of the victim.

(28:22):
And if that's a new concept for people, it might
not make sense, like where do you get power from
being a victim?

Speaker 3 (28:27):
But when when you're.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
Hurt and when you're sad, and when you've when there's
been a violation, and there's a powerlessness to that feeling.
And one of the ways that you can help buffer
against the powerlessness of that is to make another person
wrong so that it puts you in a particular role
of they did that to me, and the anger is

(28:53):
an easier form of suffering than the suffering of sadness,
or a more powerful form of suffering than the suffering
of sadness. So you know, there comes a point where
if you've done the work where you're clear in yourself,
or as clear as you can be that I am
looking as honestly as I can, I've checked myself, I've

(29:13):
taken responsibility. But now we're at a point where it's
clear this other person doesn't want to let me off
the hook because they still have their journey. Then that's
where I say it becomes a pretty deep spiritual practice.
So let's just say, like a deep personal growth practice
to do the work of holding a forgiveness for yourself

(29:35):
while they while others externally are not. And that's also
where we can get victimized, and that's where this quote
came from. Where we can be victimized by our past self,
and our past self did something, and then we just
feel like we can't move forward or we can't allow
ourselves to be happy again or feel peaceful again because

(29:57):
of something our past self did, and so we need
to can continue to wallow in the pain of us
being I'm bad. Yeah, I'm bad. I don't deserve anything
good like that. That is not that's not a high ground,
that's not maturity, that's that's that's fear of doing the

(30:17):
work actually, of how difficult and painful it can be
to hold yourself in forgiveness, hold your past self in forgiveness.
Because we're just socially, so deeply socially wired for connection
with with others. And I find that many people they
don't actually want to be let let off the hook.

(30:39):
People people want to take some accountability for what they
what they did if they're given an opportunity to do
so in in relationship. But yeah, it's tricky because you
have two people and and in this particular scenario, there
tends to be a lot more understanding and compassion for

(30:59):
the person and who was hurt rather than the person
who caused hurt. And that's where this stuff becomes quite tricky.
But you'll never you'll never move toward healing if there's
not a will, a willingness to hold the person who
created pain through the lens of who they are now
and through their willingness to be honest and accountable and responsible.

(31:19):
And I just see a lot of that happening globally
and culturally right now.

Speaker 2 (31:24):
Wow, there's one of my favorite quotes is the Irvin
Yealm quote. Sooner or later, you have to give up
hope for a better past m.

Speaker 3 (31:34):
Yeah, yeah, I like.

Speaker 2 (31:37):
Relevant to this. I mean a lot of your texts
are very compassionate. You would if you're not letting people
off the hook. Like you say, you will make mistakes
in life, big ones. Maybe that's the whole text. Maybe
I M sorry, the whole thing is you will make

(31:59):
me seecause life big ones. Don't be a victim to your
past self, learn to be accountable, have self compassion to
keep moving forward. I mean, yeah, you already explain that
you're not letting people of the hook. Yeah, you just
made that clear. Well, there's so many, there's so many.
I want to pick some of my favorites. Let's pick
one that maybe we can debate a little bit, Which

(32:21):
is the one.

Speaker 1 (32:21):
For everyone listening? Scott will often send me messages like
sometimes they're like, oh I love this one. I resonate
so deeply, and then the next day it'll be like,
I don't agree with this one at all.

Speaker 3 (32:33):
What do you mean by this? It's true.

Speaker 1 (32:35):
That's part of the beauty of our relationship. We have
a lot of range to dig into stuff. It's true,
It's very true, it's wonderful. Let me read this one
to you because it, on first blush stood against everything
I think is true. You said you're and I'll unpack
that and you can tell me. It's probably comes down
to terms. Your true self is already whole. It can't

(32:58):
be further perfected. It holds all your wisdom and peace.
Thus our path is to unwind back into ourselves. I
one hundred percent want you to explain yourself, but before
you do, let me just say what triggered me with
that one? Because I think it's good in these kinds
of discussions to say, well, what did I project onto

(33:19):
you there? Because you know a lot of that I
don't know if it's what you really meant. So for me,
I I've said things you know, in a podcasts and
in my writings that I really roll my eyes when
I see self help books be like you are great,
you know, you are perfect just the way you are,
you know, and it holds no accountability whatsoever for someone's
life or responsibility for someone's life, you know, because none

(33:43):
of us are perfect just the way we are. We
all have work to do, we all, we all have
growth to happen.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
And also the idea of the true self. I've argued
there is no true self that we're all. We all
contain multitudes, and there may be our best selves you know,
are not so best selves. But we need to take
responsibility for our whole self if we're ever going to grow,
not just say the true self is really me and
all the bad stuff is not me. So that's another

(34:09):
aspect of this. Yeah. So those are two big aspects
that triggered me. So where is that when I say that,
please let me know where I've got maybe like projected
onto you what you maybe maybe you didn't even mean
what I'm saying, thinking you meant stuff like that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
Yeah, well, first of all, we do there is a
limitation and often a loss in translation, uh with terms,
So we can start by acknowledging that and also character
limits those texts I can only squeeze in one hundred
and sixty characters, which often frustrates me tremendously. Yeah, I

(34:47):
don't think we're too far off. First of all, I
cringe at all the same things that you really Oh wow, Okay,
And and so where the X that I'm sharing here
actually doesn't feel antithetical to what you shared.

Speaker 3 (35:04):
I think there might be.

Speaker 1 (35:05):
A layer of it that that we can build on
that's different. But I don't agree with with this idea
or I don't purport the idea that everyone is just
perfect as they are and therefore you don't have to
take accountability and responsibility. When I say that there's a
place in you that is is fundamentally whole, I'm I'm

(35:30):
referring to that. I believe there's a distinction between parts
of ourselves, which you might say, are some of the
multitudes that what Whitman was referencing that represent that that
have That's what I heard, right, So we have these

(35:54):
multitudes and they can they can cause joy and fun
and pleasure, and they eight aspects of a personality structure,
and they can cause harm. And they're often ignorant, and
they're young and they're developing, and so it's important for
those parts to be massaged and educated and developed in

(36:16):
a particular way. The aspect of the self like that
I'm saying is fundamentally whole. So this this has come
from my own direct experience, but is also echoed with
from even people like you've had on this podcast, like
Richard Schwartz where he.

Speaker 3 (36:37):
And he might back him.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
Yeah, so I'd be curious where where you push back
on there.

Speaker 3 (36:45):
I think.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
I still think it is one of the most incredible
things in psychology. One internal family systems, I think is
one of the most incredible models in psychology, but also
offers one of the most direct bridges between the contemplative
traditions and the psychological additions. Where he was working with
people in the depths of their suffering, who.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
Were cutting, were in pain, didn't.

Speaker 1 (37:07):
Want to live anymore, and could identify that the origins
of those desires and patterns were parts of them, were
parts of the person that had developed as protective or
managerial aspects to get certain needs met or to feel
something or to not feel something, and that when those

(37:29):
parts stepped aside, when they felt safe enough to step aside,
that there was an expression in that person that felt
fundamentally them Like they all described, this feels more me
and it feels characterized by things like calm, courage, certain confidence, compassion, clarity,

(37:54):
and so right. And then he's seeing that with now
that thousands of people, that everyone seems to have that
space when these parts step aside, that there's something consistent there.
So that to me is incredibly interesting that we have
to ask a question if we take the perspective that
everyone's different, has all these expressions, but when all of

(38:15):
those expressions subside and all those patterns subside, that there's
something that we can measure and see even just qualitatively
that's consistent. Wow, well, that starts to match up with
what a lot of the spiritual traditions, contemplative traditions have
been saying as well, that you're not your thoughts, you're
not your emotions, you're not your sensations. There's a place

(38:36):
that resides beneath all of that, or around all of that,
or imbued.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
In all of that, that's different.

Speaker 1 (38:42):
I don't it's above my pay grade to like point
to a part of my body and say where it is,
or to even say that it's within my body what
I will say is like the time that I spent
I've spent probably a year now, a year's worth of
time in silent in silent retreat, six months as one chunk,
and then you know, since then lots of different smaller

(39:05):
silent retreats, and in those retreats, what all I'm doing
is cultivating an awareness of my direct experience as I
can observe. So I'm watching thoughts come and go, these
thoughts that feel so me. I have this thought of
like I'm really hungry right now. It's like, yeah, Corey,
we are hungry, let's go eat something. Or I'm a

(39:25):
bad person I shouldn't done, and you indulge in that
it just feels so you that It's what I find
every time is like the more I give space to
just watch that come and go, the less those thoughts
actually feel like me. And the more there's like a
place that's observing the experience, that one that's even able

(39:47):
to observe the experience, which already indicates that there's a
separation between the content and or the object and the subject.
But when I dwell in that space of the observer,
that I feel more me and I and not just
more me. I feel it's the life that it's like irreducible.

(40:08):
It has the resonance of irreducibility. It can't go any further,
can't go any deeper, it doesn't want to go any deeper.
It has the resonance of completeness. It's inarguable. I don't
need to shout it from the rooftops to defend it
or make it real. It's just like true unto itself.
And that if we could take like throw all the

(40:29):
spiritual stuff aside and just say, like, if there's the
possibility that that place exists within us and that many people,
it seems like almost every person can get to that place,
doesn't it make sense to try to lead our lives
more from that place? And so if we can at
least agree on that, then it starts to bring into

(40:53):
question like, well, maybe that serves as an inner compass
that holds everything for what will give us peace fulfillment
and even wisdom for how to inform the decisions that
we make. Is are the decisions we're making coming from
the backdrop of that place or are they coming from

(41:14):
the backdrop of the people?

Speaker 3 (41:16):
Please are part of me?

Speaker 1 (41:17):
That's like, oh, I should go into this relationship because
I don't want to make this person feel bad if
I don't go on a third date with them, or
I should have this conversation with this person because if
I don't, they'll they'll think I'm a bad person, even
though there's something in the background in me that has
no energy for this whatsoever. Most of us are trying
to optimize our lives through those patterns. We're basically becoming

(41:41):
like more the bio hacked optimized versions of our best
managerial and protector parts, rather than seeing like, is there
something a place beneath all of that that can actually
serve as a compass? And I come to this conversation

(42:02):
and this inquiry and anything I've found with a ton
of humility. It's come from my own deep despair and
frustration and not knowing what to do. Including the time
after I came back from deep silent retreat, I still
hadn't had it all integrated yet, And so it wasn't

(42:27):
until I hit moments in my life where I genuinely
did not know how to make a decision for something,
And where's the place in me that will.

Speaker 3 (42:35):
Inform this decision?

Speaker 1 (42:36):
How do I know I can make a decision from
a place that's actually going to be toward my highest good?
What even is my highest good? And that's what led
to this really deep inquiry and parsing and separating all
of the noise from this like soft quiet impulse.

Speaker 3 (42:54):
And then I've found.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
That other teachers I've been talking about this picologists like
Dick Schwartz, I have just said, like, maybe there's a
framework for understands.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
Yeah, I had an insight. Thank you so much for
explaining that I had an insight, because you know, I mean,
I have my own framework and uh, And I realized
that it's just a difference in the metaphor. But but
we're talking about the same thing. You keep talking about
beneath it all, and I talk about it rising above
it all, and and that that's the difference. That that's

(43:32):
why I'm getting I' getting hung up on it because
your metaphor is different than the way I think about it.
I don't see it as I see it as transcendence,
as opposed to peeling away everything to get to a
true core. So that was good, Like, it was really
good to hear you talk about this because it made
me realize you kept using the language of underneath it all,
whereas I don't use that language, but I want to.

(43:55):
I'm with you on I want to get people to
the holy land. We want, well me and you, we
want to get people to the same place. I think
that maybe we just think about it differently in terms
of I don't like, I think the real sell I
think it's I think it's pernicious to think that the

(44:15):
true self of you is really that pure, loving place,
and that all this other parts of you are not
the true you. They are true you, you know. I
do think it's all true. It's all true. But I
think that we can transcend those lower cells and I
think we have higher selves, you know. But it's interesting
because you then flipped at the end and you said

(44:37):
something like higher and I was like, oh wait, he
changed his metaphor for a second. There you did, you
really did. We'll rewind the tape.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
Yeah, So this is I'll be the first to acknowledge
the complications of language and the flip flopping of language
for me, and I'm sure like I wrote a tweet
four years ago that was basically a cry for let's
get rid of the term higher self, because it suggests
that there's aspects of us that are good and then

(45:07):
aspects of us that are bad, and that if we're
trying to move toward a place of more wholeness and integration,
that that language implicitly creates separation. Yeah, I've come around,
I've landed more on true But it is because I
do believe there's a place within us that and this

(45:28):
is why I'll share why I don't use words like
transcend as much and or I might say like descend,
come back to ourselves.

Speaker 3 (45:36):
It is because I do believe.

Speaker 1 (45:37):
That that core self has a gravitational pull and that everything,
the patterns that we've developed over a lifetime are actually
trying that our patterns that are scared of being that
true self, that have learned when we just allow ourselves
to be and express and be curious as we where

(46:00):
maybe when we were kids that there were certain needs
that didn't get met, or we did something from that
place that caused our parents to yell at us, and
then we learned like, oh, when I just allow myself
to be, that's not okay.

Speaker 3 (46:14):
So who do I have to be for them?

Speaker 2 (46:16):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (46:16):
I have to be someone that works really hard and
is quiet. So that I would say is a version
of it takes energy to put that pattern in place.
And let's just call it like a people pleasing pattern
or a working hard pattern.

Speaker 3 (46:31):
And I.

Speaker 1 (46:33):
Almost imagine it as like a ball with a core
and then like little spirals that are spiraling away from
that and the spiraling away, or like the learnings and
the patterns of who we need to be in order
to get these other needs met from other people in
the world, like safety, love, and connection. So my experience

(46:55):
has been that the system is kind of exhausted by
those patterns. It's it's exhausted by the people plasing, it's
exhausted by the working hard that the working hard from
a place of like I need to be good in
order to get praised. That's different than working hard from
a place of alignment, where the energy just wants to

(47:17):
is pushing you.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
And so when you path the least resistance is what.

Speaker 3 (47:25):
Yeah, I like that.

Speaker 1 (47:26):
And so I think for a lot of people, there's
for almost all of us, there's actually an unwinding phase
where we have to do less rather than more to
let ourselves come back down to that irreducible core self
and the the energy I feel imbued in the word

(47:47):
transcend has like a going up quality, and I get
what you're you're doing what most people are pointing to
when I say that, But I actually filiant and it
has been the case for me. The path to that
place within myself has been more of like a letting
go and surrendering quality. Yeah, and then the decenting just

(48:09):
happens naturally, and it takes me through layers. It might
take me through layers of anger, like if I don't
prop up my feeling of like I should do this
good opportunity, and then I go, Okay, I guess I'm
not going to do that.

Speaker 3 (48:23):
Then I'm going to go through a.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
Layer of fear. Then I might go through a layer
of anger. Then I might go through a layer of sadness.
Then I might go through a layer of despair, and
then all of that, which are like protective patterns of
what would happen or who would I be or if
I just like let go and trusted this soft knowing.
Once I cycle through all of that, then I get
to this place it's quiet and still, and it's just like, yeah,

(48:45):
this is what feels aligned, and I'm just trying to
live more of my life from that place and it
seems others gravitate toward it as well when they're given
the invitation.

Speaker 2 (48:58):
I gravitate towards it. I like it. Sign me up,
sign me up. Whether or not we're going up or down,
I'll go, fuck where we're going, let's let's go, let's go,
let's go. Yeah. Well it's like it it gets pedantic,
you know, are we going up or are we going down?
It's but isn't it kind of interesting though, to actually
discuss that, because I don't think. I don't think. I

(49:19):
don't think either. You are definitely right. I think the
jury is still out on what the best language is
for it. And I'm I'm open to rethinking you know,
my metaphor, Yeah, for sure. Are you open to rethinking
yours too?

Speaker 1 (49:34):
Yes, definitely the metaphor. So when you asked me the
other day over text, you were like you said, I
don't I can't tell if you're actually open to changing
your position, which I think is great, Like you have
to start from that place in a debate, and where
what I will what I'll always say is one like

(49:56):
I'm very open to being humboldt big time, and like
I am just interested in truth whatever that is, and
it probably has a lot of layers. I've experienced having
a lot of layers, But I am here for life
to crack me open. And it's kind of like an
agreement I've made with myself. And if that means being

(50:16):
like publicly shamed or saying something on a large platform
like this and being wrong, I will own that. Holy,
I will say, though, when you feel me when we're debating,
I'm open to the language being off. The things that
I hold with a certain steadiness are like direct experiences

(50:36):
that I've touched that feel like they have a universal
truth to them, which is like to give an example
of something like that that might not have science to
back it up, that could come from meditation. You directly
observe that if you try to put your refuge of
happiness in something that is inherently impermanent, you are not

(51:00):
going to find a stable ground. And that's what many
people try to do, and so meditation gives you an
insight just as an example of like, everything's impermanent, so
if you try to hold any single moment as a refuge.
So that's an example of something that I would say,
like that I've experienced as a direct truth and other
people have experienced as a direct truth. It's possible it's off,

(51:21):
but there's like a fundamental law that makes it so.
So the things that I'm sharing and observing, they're not
like frameworks that I've put together as like this is
my idea. They're stemming from core truths like that that
seem core, and I'm open to certain ones being slightly off,

(51:41):
but I don't. I really try not to make strong
claims unless they're coming from something like that that would
require like an alternative reality for it to shift.

Speaker 2 (51:57):
Yeah, no, I get that. I get that. Yeah, No,
there's it's just it's a it's a really interesting discussion
whether or not by overcoming art because I think our
default response is usually fear and ego. And so I'm
thinking trying to think this through when we are inhibiting,
you know, you're saying, like, we get through this, we

(52:18):
get through this, we get through this. Is it going
up or down? I'm getting hung I'm getting hung up
on this because I don't know the answer, and I
don't so You'm I want to like really keep thinking
about this because I've never actually had this discussion with
anyone in my field about this. So thank you for
stimulating in me.

Speaker 1 (52:35):
And when you went through the thirty day courses year,
did you feel and you like came back it felt
like you were more you, or you felt more spacious
and free? What was the the language I would use,
and we could change the language I would say, I
would ask you like, what was the energetic experience of that?
But I think a different way to phrase that could

(52:57):
just be did you feel like you were sinking more
into yourself?

Speaker 2 (53:03):
Or you were? No, I transcended. I felt like I
was expanding and I felt like I was transcending when
I see the reason why descending doesn't see this. This
is also the importance of not taking your own personal
experiences as the truth. And this is this is another
another thing I wanted to discuss. I was really excited
to talk about all this stuff with you today because

(53:24):
you know, there's the there's I mean, if it's if
as scientists we just believed what everyone said is their
experience and said, oh, well, therefore that's the truth, you know,
then we would never discover the truth because we you know,
they're there are generalizable truths that and sometimes they're outliers too,
so sometimes you know, so I would say, like, it's

(53:47):
an interesting what do we do with that? Your inner
experience is telling you your descending And for me, I
feel like, you know, when when I am just descending,
what is happening is that I'm spiraling downward into fear
and panic. To me, that's a descending to me. And
I also think the point we don't project onto each
other because we're different people, you know, and my inner

(54:09):
experience is different than your inner experience, and that's why.
That's why as well, I don't want to. I don't
I would. I'm not so keen on even if I've
done an investigation of my own inner experience for like
ten years. Still, I'd be wary personally of generalizing that
because you know, you don't have the same inner experience

(54:29):
as I do of a constant pervasive sense of anxiety
and dread. At least I don't think you do, and
I do. Maybe maybe I'm wrong, but you know this
is I've suffered with generalized anxiety disorder my whole life.
So for me to descend more and more is to
get in touch with that self more and more. And
I don't like.

Speaker 1 (54:47):
That, And I would actually what I would say when
I hear that, and also just from my frame work
or frame of mind, that that kind of of descending
or the experience that arises with that experience of descent,
I don't actually take as a reason to avoid that

(55:10):
kind of descending. I think actually most forms of descending
back into yourself involve a huge amount of panic and
fear and anxiety.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
Do you ever have existential dread?

Speaker 1 (55:22):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I Mean I navigated a lot
of it when I spent a lot of time in
a monastery, so a lot of like the big existential
fears I feel like I cycled through. But yeah, I
still have existential dread. I still have like just the

(55:44):
general fear that comes with being a human and like
a whole lot of unknown.

Speaker 2 (55:53):
Well we're really onto something big here, Cory, Yeah, we
really are. I see what you're saying. I was at
the Apple store this morning because I woke up and
accidentally dropped my water all over my laptop. We had
my manuscript on it, and so I was feeling dread
and anxiety, and I made a Genius Bar appointment, and

(56:14):
this morning I was essentially having a panic attack on
the way to the Apple Store, and as I was
siteing there in the Apple Store. You know, I've learned
at this point to be very good. I use all
the tools that I have the tools, right, so I
have all the tools I need to be able to
handle and cycle, as you say, cycle through it in
a way that ten year old, not even even ten

(56:36):
years ago, Scott would have had great difficulty doing. So
I've learned a lot of these tools. These are I
view them as add on tools, you know that I've
really learned. And so you know, I'm just thinking because
it's like when we use language like, oh, just get
in touch with your already perfect self. No, I had

(56:58):
to learn. I had to add on those I had
to learn how to regulate. It wasn't just as easy
as like, oh, I didn't have to do all that
work the last ten years. I could have just read
Corey's tweet and just I've told myself, Oh, all I
have to do is just get in touch with that
perfect part of me, and then I would have been fine.
I guess that's why I'm reacting to it a little bit.

(57:18):
But I'm starting to see much more clear what you're saying.
I like what you're saying, and I'm also holding this
other stuff there as well.

Speaker 1 (57:26):
So I definitely think you can create self regulatory internal
infrastructures by adding to the system and using.

Speaker 2 (57:36):
Cool let's just say I still work there.

Speaker 1 (57:38):
Yeah, like a managerial part, as Dick Schwartz would say,
that might do something like scheduling our anxiety, just like, Okay,
I'm really I'm really nervous right now because I'm thinking
about this interview I have to do three days. And
we just talked to the mind like we use a
skill and say like, hey, mind, yeah, I know this
is intense, but how about we focus on this. We

(57:59):
worry about this tomorrow for an hour and then, like
you use a strategy like that, which is basically just
like reorganizing the internal system to defer the energy to
another point in time. Might not necessarily do anything fundamentally
to shift how the mind is held within a larger

(58:20):
context of.

Speaker 3 (58:22):
Being human, but it can work. It's a tool.

Speaker 1 (58:27):
What I would also say, though, is is that space
of like being fundamentally whole where it serves in this
and where I've felt it serve in moments where what
I would call is like that my ego self that's
basically terrified of making the wrong decision or doing the
wrong thing, or saying the wrong thing, or being humiliated. Right,

(58:51):
that part part like can't do life that well. That
part arose from fear that I'm not if people don't
love me, I'm not good enough. So it's constantly.

Speaker 3 (59:03):
Operating out of fear.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
This other place that it does require some subscribing to
that it exists in yourself. And that's why you don't
have to take any of it at face value, Like
you can do the practices and see the people who
have talked about this for millennium. Now that there is
that place within you, that place doesn't have the same
fear of I'm not good enough. It has safety imbued

(59:29):
into it. When you're there, you don't feel like you
need to defend yourself. You feel fundamentally connected.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
Right, I call them self transcendent experiences though.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
Right So, what I would say is a big part
of healing, and you could even call it reparenting, is
when that fear based part, that younger self part, is
held and surrendered into the arms of that core self,
And that has a fundamental at least in my experience

(59:58):
of it. The energetic experience of it is one of
like letting go and softening, and because the resonance of
that core self space is it doesn't have this like
pushing energy. It's just relaxed and spacious, like a bale
of hay where you've snipped the twine and it just

(01:00:19):
spread out.

Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
And So.

Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
What I've been playing with in the last years is
what is it like when I feel that part that
wants to manage and control and do my life and
is afraid, just like, no, we have to do this
reason because if we don't, then we're gonna hurt this
person and they're not gonna like us. And I've just
seen the futility of that. Just like, what if I
just met that part and then felt that other space

(01:00:46):
that's behind that's quiet and calm, and just say, what
if you just let go and just let this other
part hold you and hold the burden of having to
do life. And there's something in that part that then
softens in that moment and it gives way to this

(01:01:06):
other wisdom. And I would say that like that process
has a fundamental repair quality that can then carry you
into future moments where that anxiety attack might arise, but
not arise in the same way because the part that
was extra anxious, felt alone and isolated, and then recruited

(01:01:28):
some other managerial parts to help it, like what do
we do.

Speaker 3 (01:01:32):
In this moment?

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
And it can work, but it might not be addressing
And I would argue, isn't addressing the core repair of
where that anxiety might be coming from.

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
Yeah, thank you for elaborating that. I could see a
reframing here that might be helpful to a lot of
people rather than self incendence. Maybe, I mean, you can
write a book together someday on what it is. It
seems like what is happening here if I step into
your head, is we are learning It's you know, here

(01:02:06):
are the tools that we're teaching you to actually connect
with yourself. It's it's it's not like like maybe maybe
there's there's there's another there's like, it's not self transcendence.
It's you know, there are so many things that we
do to just to uh, to move us in the

(01:02:29):
direction of fear ego. All these sides of our I
would say, true sides of ourselves that we don't enjoy
being in, in which we don't don't feel authentic. By
the way, I wanted to push back earlier and say
just because things doesn't feel authentic doesn't mean it's not
truthfully authentic. So that's another distinction I wanted to make
to you, because you can't just use the argument to

(01:02:49):
me that like, oh, well feel so, therefore that's true.
I'm like, no, we we delude ourselves all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
Yes, And I would say you can get to refined
levels of this where even something that's scary and uncomfortable
you can still sense when it has the resonance of
being in alignment or coming from that that le place.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
I see, So you're okay, good, this is really good.
So you actually I finally have something I can I
can attach to the your You're used to the word
true and that's an alignment. Yeah, there we go. There
we go. Now I get it, because I don't know
what true means. You know, Look, I'm a nerd. I'm
a scientist. I look in the brain, and I'm like,

(01:03:31):
it's not like we see brain areas, like that's the
true brain. Like, as a cognitive scientist, to be like,
oh that brain activation is true, That brain activation is
not true. That doesn't make any damn sense to me.
But I actually see what you're saying. Yes, well that's
that's huge. That that really is huge, because when we

(01:03:51):
feel in alignment, we really do tend to feel there
is a true an integrity, integrity, I would say, between
who we really want to how we want to experience ourselves,
and the way the world is giving us that experience,
and that is beautiful that I'm all. I'm right there

(01:04:12):
with you, and I love your your your exercises and
thoughts on the importance of alignment. And so now I
see you really do e quate alignment with when you
use the word true, Yeah, to you, true is aligned.

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
Yeah, I'll probably retire the word true. You don't have
to on my behalf well in general because like my
academic friends, and I'm not that far. I've like spent
a decent amount of time in academia, and not to
the level you have, but like I have respect for it,
and I've also just found the limitations of it where
I think in the last couple of years, I've just

(01:04:47):
gone more in the this is my felt sense of things,
and these are there's a language I put on it,
but true is a complicated word, and I'm always struggling
and working to find the language that speaks to the
thing that you really you lose as soon as you
put language on it, and therefore I make a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:05:06):
Of space for its its ongoing evolution.

Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
Yeah, I feel like I get you, and I feel
like you get where I was coming from getting hung
up on the word true. Yeah. Yeah, I think I
think we both kind of get each other even, I think,
much better even than we were we're an hour ago.
What do you think?

Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
Yeah, we might even like each other more now.

Speaker 2 (01:05:30):
I didn't know if that was possible.

Speaker 3 (01:05:31):
Yeah, no, totally.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
It was already kind of in a ceiling. I was
at a ceiling with you, but apparently not the other white. No,
I'm joking. Thanks Corey, this was really a really wonderful chat.
I've learned so much from you, and I do feel
like there's a lot for people to really think through
and to apply in their own lives. You know. It's

(01:05:56):
like it's where it's at alignment, so connection, love, Yeah,
it's like that's life. Where do you want out of life?

Speaker 3 (01:06:05):
Yeah? Right?

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
Than those three things?

Speaker 1 (01:06:08):
Right? And maybe I think that's just like a good
note to close on as well, Like when we're talking
about how do you know what's aligned in the place
in your life to lead from. I mean, this is
where it takes some time to get close enough to
yourself to be able to discern what are the things,
the ways that I'm leading my life that actually don't

(01:06:29):
feel good, and what are the ways that are almost
inarguably good, and that I can then track along other
people's experiences as well, Like, there's something about love and
internal spaciousness and the feeling of being integrated and whole
that just feels true. And what if I just let
that serve as the backdrop for how I lead my life?

(01:06:53):
How much different would it be than letting fear and
control and trying to be good in other people's eyes
constantly be the backdrop. And I think if you just
start there, you're going to be on a really rich
ride of life.

Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
I think, I agree, I agree. That's Isn't that a
big part of the self actualization journey to use my
stick to bring in my stick for a second? I mean,
you know, isn't that that's That's a big part of
the self actuization journey is constantly realigning your aligning yourself
to where you are now, which might not be where

(01:07:31):
you were ten years ago. You know, like I think
ten years ago there are certain choices and things I
made that I don't want to make anymore. But I
think it was an alignment ten years ago. Yeah. Yeah,
so it's a constant process, right, yes.

Speaker 3 (01:07:43):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
Another reason why I don't like the idea of the
true self because it cannotes were kind of born with
this unalterable essence that doesn't that we just have to
get in touch with. But you know, I just realized
that's another that's another reason why that terminology triggered me.
I realized a lot today. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:08:05):
Yeah, that's cool.

Speaker 1 (01:08:07):
And I could see how that could be triggering, and
I could also see how maybe one day it could
be really beautiful and inviting where you can hold both,
you can hold all the parts of you that can
that can improve and adjust. And maybe what they're doing
is like reorganizing themselves to actually make space for the Scot,
the essential Scot that's been there all along, to have

(01:08:28):
more permission to come through.

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):
Yeah. Well, hey, I think both are possible. Yeah, yeah,
there could be both both both parts of ourselves. Yeah.
That's also an interesting thing is how much do you
want to accept and how much do you want to
really change? You know, Except I think we should accept everything,
but how much do we want to accept and change?

(01:08:50):
And how much do we want to accept and accept?

Speaker 1 (01:08:52):
Yeah, that might be another podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
Episode to be continued.

Speaker 3 (01:09:00):
Thanks Corey, thanks so much.

Speaker 2 (01:09:01):
Scott always enjoys always