This week Scott is joined by author and social health expert Kasley Killam. Scott and Kasley discuss the importance of prioritizing social health and why cultivating relationships is as important as diet, exercise and sleep.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Multiple people said, you know what I can't get over
is that I don't even ask questions like these with
the people already in my life, like with my friends
and family, my own age. Sometimes there's this limiting belief
where we think we can't go deeper, when in fact
you can, and a lot of times people are more
receptive to that than you think.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Today we have Cassily Kilheim on the show. Cassily is
a leading expert in social health, Drawing from over a
decade of studying, sharing, and applying the science of human connection.
She elevates the idea of social health as a writer
and speaker, and helps individuals, communities, and organizations become more
socially healthy. Cassily leads the nonprofit Social Health Labs, whose
(00:46):
programs have connected and inspired thousands of people across the
US and globe since launching in twenty twenty. In this episode,
we discussed Cassily's latest book, The Art and Science of Connection,
Why Social Health is the Missing key to living longer, healthier,
and happier. Cassily argues that physical and mental health are
incomplete without social health and makes a persuasive case for
(01:09):
why social health should be prioritized a lot more in
our society than currently is. We discuss why cultivating meaningful
relationships is as vital as exercise, nutrition, and sleep, and
the ways for us all to be more socially healthy.
So let's get into it. I bring you Cassily Kill Them,
Cassily Kill Them. Well, congratulations on your new book, and
(01:31):
welcome to the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Thank you so much, Scott. I'm truly honored to be
talking to you today.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
It's good to see you. It's great to see you.
It's been many years. It's been many years.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Had blue hair the last time I saw you, Carson.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I'm sur I've been through many phases in the past
five six years. Blue blonde. This is more my natural
and the hair cover right now. It looks good.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
It looks good.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Well, thank you, thank you well. Absolutely delightful to chat
with you again and about your new book, which is
very important in this time that we're living in. But
I gotta ask, why are you so over loneliness?
Speaker 1 (02:10):
That's a good good spot to start. Well, so let
me start by saying I have worked on loneliness for
many years, and it's truly an issue that's very important
at this time in our history. Loneliness is very widespread.
Many people feel disconnected. There are very worrisome trends. You know,
(02:32):
friendship is in decline, the number of friends that people have,
but also the amount of time that people spend with
their friends has gone down, you know, the extent to
which people belong to communities and clubs and groups that
they're involved in, and just experiences of disconnection. There are
studies showing that people go weeks at a time without
(02:52):
talking to a single family member or friend, and that
people don't feel like they have anyone who knows them
well at.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
A deeper time, consider that a good week.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Well, so we'll get into that about what's the right Yeah, okay,
so we'll come back to that for sure. But having
the option to be able to talk to friends and
family you want to is really vital. And so loneliness
is a huge problem, and last year the US Surgeon
General declared it as a public health priority here in
(03:23):
the US. The World Health Organization launched a Commission on
Social Connection, recognizing that loneliness is a public health issue.
So it's a topic I really care about and I've
worked on it for years. I give talks, I run
programs related to addressing loneliness. I advise organizations in the space,
and it's something I can care about and will continue
(03:44):
to care about. The reason I say I'm over loneliness
in the book, which is a bit provocative, is because
I think it's time to shift the conversation and broaden
the lens of how we're really thinking about how helping
people live more meaningfully connected lives. For one thing, a
(04:05):
lot of people really underestimate the importance of our relationships
for our health. So there are studies showing that people
don't even recognize that relational factors, you know, whether or
not we feel connected, that that predicts our longevity. So
there's this sense that not enough people realize this is
about health. There's also the fact that loneliness is just
(04:25):
one signal of what I refer to as social health. Right, So,
in the same way with physical health, if you're not obese,
that doesn't mean that you're necessarily physically healthy. There are
other metrics that matter than just your weight, Right. You
also need to get quality sleep and eat healthy foods. Right.
If you're skinny, but you're not eating quality foods that
(04:47):
are nutritious and fuel you, that's not being fully physically healthy.
So a lot of people who don't necessarily identify as
feeling lonely, still there are opportunities for them to strengthen
their social muscles and connect in other meaningful ways. Maybe you,
you know, feel connected to friends and family, but you
don't feel like you belong in the workplace, or you
(05:08):
don't have a sense of community locally where you live,
So that there are these other ways that we can
help improve people's social health. And so I'm very passionate
about shifting the conversation and helping us look at the
broader picture that loneliness is one piece of social health,
(05:30):
and what I mean by that is that, you know,
our relationships determine our health as much as anything else.
And so in the same way that we talk about
physical and mental health, we need to talk about social health.
And that lens can be really empowering and help us
think about new opportunities to support people if we move
away from just focusing on the negative toward towards some
(05:53):
of the positive.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
I'm very positive psychology of you, it's very.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Positive psychology of me. Yes. So, as you know, we've
both spent time at the University of Pennsylvania, at the
Positive Psychology Center, and that had a huge influence on
the way that I think about this. And also, you know,
a lot of feedback that I get from organizations, you know,
when they run surveys with their community members where their
(06:18):
users asking how lonely they are, it creates what I
hear is that it pushes people away. Right Sometimes that
actually leaves people feeling worse. Whereas if we shift the
conversation and focus on more of an asset lens and
talk about social health or connection or community and start
thinking about the strengths that we can build in people
(06:38):
start thinking about the opportunities for connection. Perhaps they're two
sides of the same coin, but as we saw with
the Positive Psychology movement, it can help open up these
new possibilities for how we're approaching the conversation, how we're
actually supporting people to live better lives. So when I
sam over loneliness, really what I mean is that I
think it's time now, given how much attention there is
(07:01):
to this issue, and also the fact that loneliness rates
aren't necessarily getting better, it's time to move upstream to
look at this bigger picture and think about how we
can all strengthen our social health and create the conditions
for social health in society.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Yeah, it reminds me a little bit of Corey Key's
approach to mental health continuum, saying that languishing is not
exactly the opposite of mental health. If you're not languishing,
you're not necessarily flourishing exactly. So Yeah, No, it's very
a very very very interesting approach, which is consistent with
(07:40):
a lot of other research. Very cool. So, tell our
audience a little bit about you, about your background, How
did you become one of the leaders in the social
health space. Yeah, introduce yourself to my audience.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
I love Scott's audience. Honored to do.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
I want to know more about you as a human ensure.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
So, I have a vivid memory of being on a
playground as a little kid at my elementary school, observing
my friends and other peers and watching how they were
interacting with each other and who was left out and
who was in the heart of it. And from that
very very young age, I can remember just being fascinated
(08:22):
by people and trying to understand how I fit in
with other people and how others were interacting amongst themselves,
and trying to make sense of the social world around me,
and as I got oh older, you know, I navigated
first of all, recognizing that I was an introvert and
trying to figure out how do you survive and thrive
(08:46):
as someone who needs a balance of socializing and solitude
and can't always be engaging with people and actually values
alone time, and trying to navigate that in school, in
the workplace, life in general. I also experience some conflict
within my family, within groups around me, and certainly saw
(09:11):
a lot of that on the news and in the world,
and was always very interested in how do we help
people connect across divides, how do we foster more empathy
and compassion and forgiveness so that we can overcome the
challenges relationally that we all experience and the conflict. And
then also I've moved around a lot of times. I've
(09:33):
lived in three countries and I think twelve cities and
towns now, So every single time that I moved to
a new place, I had to start fresh, make new friends,
build new community, while also staying connected to loved ones
far away. And so in all these ways, I've kind
of personally been exploring my own social health and trying
(09:53):
to understand what it means for me to be socially
healthy and how to optimize that, And so I really
turned to the research and speaking of positive psychology, I
mean that was a turning point for me, spending time
at you pen and starting to come across the research
literature on social connection and kindness and compassion and all
(10:15):
these ideas of how we could connect more meaningfully. It
was the most exciting thing to come across that research,
and all of my work since then has been an
expiration of how do we actually apply those research insights
in our own lives? Right? How do we bridge what's
in the academic research with what it means to go
(10:36):
about our days? And so through various ways professionally, I've
been trying to bridge that, and then now most recently
with this book, this is really the culmination of over
a decade of exploring this theme and trying to take
the research insights and make them practical and also leverage
from stories and experiences around us for how we can
(10:57):
each approach our social lives so that we can of healthier.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
I love that. And you have a degree from Harvard, right, I.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Do, yes, the Masters in Public Health. Yeah, So I
studied I guess I should mention that in that part.
I also in twenty nineteen do the masters at the
school Harvard School of Public Health focused on solutions for
loneliness and how we can create a more meaningfully connected
world really through the lens of public health, so thinking
(11:26):
about not just empowering us as individuals, but also how
do we create an environment where social health can more
naturally arise?
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Right?
Speaker 1 (11:36):
What do we need to do in policy, How do
we need to design our technology, what do we need
to be teaching in schools, How do we design our cities.
I spent a lot of time looking at the research
on what in the built environment helps people foster connection.
So really, through all these different lenses, how do we
actually create a culture where we can be socially healthy
(11:58):
more easily? Given that so many people are experiencing loneliness
and disconnection in different ways.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Right now, Absolutely, it strikes me that that one of
the reasons why there's this loneliness is like I think
everyone kind of feels like they're weird. They're the weird one,
you know, Like they're like, where do I belong? I
think there's a real belonging issue. Is that is that
part of the work you kind of that you've looked
into is kind of this the sense of like, where
(12:23):
do I fit in in this in the social fabric
of this universe? Yeah, I know, I know I deal
with that.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
So I do too, absolutely, And I think you're probably
right that everyone does to some extent. You know, we're
feeling connected, Feeling like we belong and like we matter
is so essential and core. It's a fundamental human need
that we all seek for survival purposes, but also in
(12:51):
order to thrive and feel fulfilled and happy. And we
need reassurance, right, We seek we want to know that yeah,
we're good. I care about you, I see you, and
so I think that's an important part of it. But
there's there are many factors that are contributing to the
(13:11):
fact that people feel so disconnected. Right, That's one of them.
There are a lot of factors in our modern culture. Right.
Technology is one piece that comes up a lot in
social media and the ways in which that's rewiring how
we connect and inhibiting us in some ways and helping
us in others. There's the trends, like a lot of
(13:32):
people move around more frequently, there's higher rates of transience,
there's higher rates of living alone, so not being embedded
in your family or in the community that you grew
up with, and going out and being independent, which I'm
guilty of. Right I've moved away from I live away
from family right now. I've moved for work many times
rather than moving for family and for community. And so
(13:57):
there are many different trends going on that are coalescing
to mean that it's just it feels hard to connect
right now and to feel like we do belong.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
But and yet when you said that you feel like
I feel too, I felt a greater sense of connection
to you. So maybe more people need to express how
they feel to each other and maybe realize that they're
not the only one who thinks they're weird.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Absolutely, and that's why a lot of the efforts to
destigmatize loneliness are so important, because it turns out that
every single one of us feels lonely at some point
in our lives. And that's a normal human experience, and
it's actually a healthy human experience.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
So, just like our bodies tell us when we're hungry
or we're thirsty, our bodies and brains telling us that
we're lonely is our bodies way of saying, hey, you
need to connect, and that's a natural human signal, and
being able to talk about that and open up honestly
one another is important. There's also so much research, as
you know, showing that vulnerability helps bring us closer together.
(15:09):
So when I confide in you or you can fighte
in me, that engenders trust, That engenders likability, right, so
we're more likely to get along. So ironically talking about
loneliness or other fears and social anxieties that we have
can help us connect more meaningfully and actually help us
overcome that.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, and yeah, for sure, like research shows secret sharing
is a great way to bond with someone as well
as gossiping, So we won't do either right now on
the Psychology podcast.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
No gossiping, no way.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Maybe over coffee, but maybe over coffee later we'll do
the secret sharing gossiping. Yeah. I'd love to hear your
multi dimensional conceptualization of the concept of social health because
you have a very unique you have your own sort
(16:03):
of way of conceptualizing it and the main components of it.
What are the parameters of it, you know, the boundary conditions,
all that good stuff.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
So this was a term that I came across in
the research that was first defined by a scholar named
Robert D. Russel back in the early nineteen seventies. And
when I read this paper, it was such a light
bulb moment for me because it unified a lot of
the themes that I was seeing in the research. So,
right now, if you dig into the data, there's social connection,
(16:33):
there's social cohesion, social capital, social connectedness, social networks. It
goes on and on, social support. There's so many different
ways that we're tapping into our social lives. But what
are they all adding up to, right? What is the
value of all of that? All of those tie into
(16:53):
this broader theme of social health, which is that they
matter because connection is how we throw And so I
think the language of social health is really powerful because
one it underscores the health significance of our relationships, right,
And I mentioned earlier that research shows people underestimate that,
So that's really important. In the same way that the
(17:14):
language of mental health helps us take our emotions seriously,
the language of social health can help us take our
relationships more seriously. And so the way I like to
think about this is that if you think of your
overall health and well being you as an individual person.
Think of it like a Greek temple, right, and a
Greek temple has different columns that are supporting the structure overall.
(17:38):
There's a physical column, there's a mental column, there's a
social column. There could be other columns like spiritual dimensions
or environmental dimensions, right. But my aim is to really
elevate this social pillar because what I saw when I
came across that paper by Russell was that there was
very little information about that, and it's social health isn't
(18:01):
talked about in the same way that physical and mental
health are a regular part of our conversations today. It's
really missing from sort of the public discourse. And even
on Wikipedia there's over seven million articles, not one of
them is dedicated to social health.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
So the part of me you should create one, Well.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yeah, someone needs to, for sure. But isn't that interesting
that now, all these years later, there isn't even a
Wikipedia page about this, So it's really just not a term.
And I see this all the time in groups I
talk to or articles I write, where people are like, oh,
this social health thing, that's really interesting. And so it's
(18:44):
so important to elevate this because it's part of your
overall health and well being. So if physical health is
about your body and mental health is about your mind,
social health is about your relationships. And by seeing these
pillars as vital and supporting each other and strengthening your
overall health temple, that's going to inform the actions that
(19:05):
you take to be healthy. So, yes, you need to
exercise and get a good night's sleep and maybe go
to therapy or practice meditation or things like that to
be physically and mentally strong. But you can't be fully
healthy if you're not also cultivating close relationships and cultivating
a sense of community. Those are vital health actions as well.
(19:27):
And to thrive as humans and to be healthy and
live a long time, that's an essential component.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, I'm sure that there's no one size fits all approach,
you know, Like one of in the media kit that
was sent to me, one of the questions is what
is the right amount and type of connection? I feel
fulfilled and REPELP. But that can't be the right question, right,
Like introverts might have a different optimal than extroverts, right, Like,
how do you even go about answering such a question? Since, yeah, well.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
That's exactly the point is that there is no one
right amount and type of connection for you. That's exactly
the point. And so and in the same way that
you and I might not need to eat the same
number of calories in a given day, right, we each
have different numbers that are right for us and our
health behaviors. And so in the book, I explore these
(20:21):
four styles.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
That I described as chapter is it? Oh fine, I
love individual differences research. I really like that level.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yes, well, it's so important because you know, a lot
of times there are different guidelines for how to be healthy,
walk ten thousand steps a day, get eight hours of
sleep at night, things like that, and those are helpful
because they're starting points and they can kind of anchor
us as we explore our own individual health needs. But
there is no one right number when it comes to connection,
(20:52):
and we can have starting points, and I do give
them in the book, but ultimately it's about exploring what's
meaning to you. So the four social health styles that
I describe are based on the amount and type of
connection that is more fulfilling for you or feels more
comfortable for you. So one, the first style is called
(21:16):
a butterfly. So this is an idea we're all kind
of familiar with, right, a social butterfly. So this is
someone who likes a lot of interaction and really enjoys
kind of more casual connection, someone who's the life of
a party, who really puts other people at ease. That's
a butterfly. The second idea is, and just to build on,
(21:37):
that's if you think about butterflies in nature, right, they're
kind of fluttering around from flower to flower, pollinating and
drinking nectar in return, so there's this beautiful exchange, and
so that's kind of the idea of a social butterfly.
The second style is a wallflower. So again a term
we're sort of familiar with wallflowers in nature. They're sort
(21:58):
of unassuming plan that grow against walls or in cracks,
but they often actually have really powerful medicinal properties, and
in ancient times we're used for medicine, so maybe we
kind of don't give them the attention they deserve. Wallflowers,
you know, in tend toward having less frequent interaction and
(22:19):
more casual connection. That's sort of their sweet spot and
what their personality more naturally gravitates toward. The third style
is a firefly. So this is someone who likes, again,
infrequent interaction, but deep connection. So this is me. I
love long periods of alone time, but when I'm with
my friends and family, I want to get to the
heart of the matter and move past chitchat. That's what
(22:43):
brings me alive, right. I love that, I love connecting
with my loved ones, but also I need periods of
solitude in order to recharge. So that's a firefly. And
then the final fourth style is called an evergreen. So
this is someone who likes a lot of interaction in
a deep way. So someone who's constantly in communication with
(23:04):
their very close friends and family and that really lights
them up. Just like an evergreen in nature is a
plant that's lush and green all year round, right, whereas
a firefly glows brightly in synchrony with other fireflies and
then retreats into the night sky and disappears. So these
different concepts are meant to help align you with what
(23:27):
is the right amount of and type of connection for
you and invite people to reflect. I mean, actually, I
partnered with The New York Times to do a ten
question quiz that helps people figure out their social health style,
which was a lot of fun so there's that's a
quiz that everyone can go take and then learn more
in the book.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
I was going to say, it'd be very interesting to
see how these map onto the Big five personality traits consolutely. Then, yeah,
what are some barriers that you see to being socially healthy?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Sure? So one of the biggest ones is that we
all feel busy, right. People are busy, caught up in
our day to day in doing the work that we
need to do, and in taking care of our families
and just trying to make ends meet. There's a sense
(24:20):
of modern life feeling really busy, where people just don't
have the time to do the things that they want
to do. That's kind of the sense the lot of
us feel. And sometimes connection in our relationships can be
the first thing to fall to the wayside, right, the
last thing that we prioritize, because all of these other
(24:40):
things are urgent. And I'm still guilty of this even
as someone who studies this. I mean recently I realized
that my husband and I hadn't seen our friends in
several months, who literally live five minutes away from us.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
You know, I think take people for granted totally.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
We can take people for granted, and not stay in
touch as frequently as we all want. It's very easy
for that to happen, right. It's oftentimes our social health
is not a priority in the way that work is.
For example, we spend so much time working, which many
of us love, I love I love my job, and
(25:18):
we have to do it to pay our bills as well.
But if we're not also making time to have the
enriching relationships that fuel us, then you know that that's
definitely one of the barriers to being socially healthy.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
What about antisocial people, people with antisocial personality disorder, I
don't feel like they're very inclusive in your book.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Yeah, tell me more about that. How how could we
from that?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
How? Look, I'm just I can't. That's a cheat. Like
what about people that hate people?
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Well, it's funny you say that. So on the New
York Times quiz when they posted on Instagram, I saw
this comment where someone said, you need to add a
fifth option. That's a cicada who you know does goes
retreats for thirteen years and then comes out every now
and then to kind of make some noise and then yeah,
it does away again. So I think that there's something
to that. Maybe there's a fifth style there, not wanting
(26:12):
to be around people at all, but we all need
some amount of connection.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
So most most humans, for sure, they are the operations,
the extreme outliers. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Yeah, although it's interesting. I don't know if you've seen
the show Alone. Have you ever watched that? It's a
survival show where people who are survivalists go out into
nature by themselves and have to survive as long as
they can alone. And I love the show because it's
it's very interesting. But what's fascinating to me is that
(26:46):
one of the top reasons people drop out and just
quit the whole thing is not because they don't have
the survival skills they need. It's because they start to
feel lonely and they miss their family and friends, and
they say, what am I doing? What's what's the point
so I can win some money? No, I'd much rather
I'd much rather spend the next few months with with
(27:08):
the people I care about.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
So there's there doesn't even even in the extreme conditions. Yeah, well,
you know, it's there's certainly a fundamental human drive there.
What do you think about my distinction and transcend between
the need for belonging and the need for intimacy. I
feel like they're too are lumped together. Sometimes they're both
part of the connection drive, but they can be pulled
(27:33):
apart in various ways. I wonder what you thought of that.
You know, like, uh, it's possible to feel belonging to
a group or organization but don't feel a relatedness at all,
don't feel like in a sense of intimacy, you know,
like like DEI programs are obsessively focused on belonging. But
you know, there's more to life than just feeling like
(27:54):
you belong there, you know, like, how much do people
actually care about you as a human, as a whole human,
not just one dement know you?
Speaker 1 (28:00):
You know?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
And so these are just some thoughts that I've had
in my own work. What do you think of that?
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yeah, I love that. Thank you for bringing in that nuance.
I think there can be value to both, right, It
helps us to feel connected if we're part of a
group where we feel like we belong. But to your point,
it's so important and so valuable to have at least
one person in your life who really knows who you are,
(28:30):
loves you unconditionally, the good and the bad. That you
can confide in.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Right.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
I Mean, the way I think about it is that,
and the research supports us, is that being socially healthy
means having all different diverse ties that you can lean on.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Right.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
So you have those really emotionally intimate relationships, hopefully at
least one, right, and frankly one is wonderful if you
have one person who really gets you and you have
that emotional intimacy with that's.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
A gift in this life.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
And then expanding beyond that, you have all these other
kinds of ties. You have more casual friends who you
enjoy sharing experiences with or hanging out with on a
Friday night. You have family, You have coworkers and the
ongoing interaction that you get hopefully on a day to
day basis with people you collaborate with. You have the
groups that you belong to and hopefully a sense of
(29:23):
belonging in some of those.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
So it's about having these diverse different ties. And so
many studies, in fact, there was a new one that
I just saw yesterday that I haven't had a chance
to read, but again that are showing that the more
diverse are ties, the better off we are in terms
of our well being. But also our health outcomes. So
it's really important to diversify. And just like you know,
(29:45):
if you get all of your emotional needs from your
romantic partner, well what if you're fighting with your romantic partner,
where do you turn for support in that situation? We
need to have different kinds of people who we can
reach out to and show different parts of ourselves too.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Mm hmm. Yeah, that's why cheating is prominent. Yeah, so
what what you're just going in there? Yeah, it is
cheating it you're so positive, you're so positive. You gotta
gotta throw in some of the truth about human nature
a little bit. But anyway, what individuals can do. I
(30:21):
really want to focus on the rest of this interview
on really practical things that really brilliant stuff that you
have in your in your book about that the things
that people can do. You have this for these four
strategies to optimize social health, because you do for your
social health is as like exercise, right, that's am I
getting that right? Exactly? Your model that and so so
(30:43):
you know, continuing in that metaphor like stretching, resting, tone
and flexing that kind of like the rhythmic aspect of
that stretching, resting, toning, and flexing. Can you kind of
elaborate a little bit on those four?
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Absolutely? Yes. So the analogy here is to think about
how you strengthen your physical muscles, right. So, the first
strategy to strengthen your social muscles is to stretch. So
if you stretch your body, it's because you want to
become more flexible. You want to stretch it out. If
you stretch your social muscles, this is about wanting more connection, right, So,
(31:20):
making new friends, seeking new communities to be part of
expanding your social circle. That's how you stretch your social muscles.
The second strategy is to rest, So with physical exercise,
it's actually really important to have rest days and rest
time in between reps or in between workouts so that
your body can recover right and actually integrate the exercise
(31:43):
that you're doing. And in that same way, we can
rest our social muscles and actually either connect less right,
connect more with ourselves, take them alone time, or just
sort of be content with the number of connections that
you have and double down on those. The third strategy
is to tone. So if your tone your social muscles,
(32:04):
your physical muscles. Rather, it's really about getting stronger, right,
deepening deepening your muscles. Similarly with toning your social muscles,
that's about deepening your relationships, right, fostering closer more emotional
intimacy to your point. And then the final strategy is
to flex. So just like you flex your social muscles
and you kind of show off the strong muscles you've built,
(32:27):
you can flex your social muscles, which is really about
sustaining your relationships in the long term and continually investing
in them over time. So those are the four strategies,
and then there are many many tips that I go
into on how how we can think about doing that
and what strategy is right for you at a given time.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yeah, and people need to buy your book, so we're
not going to give it all away, but you maybe
give me one social fitness exercise that I can do today.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Sure, Yeah, So one very easy one I'll start with
that is to go for connection first. So oftentimes we have,
you know, we're driving in the car and you put
on a podcast to listen to to, or you put
on some music while you're driving in the car, or
(33:18):
a meeting ends early and you have fifteen minutes where
you're just kind of scrolling through headlines or scrolling through
emails and not getting much done. The idea here is
to go for connection first. So rather than immediately putting
on that podcast, or rather than immediately going on social
media and scrolling mindlessly text or call a friend. Right,
Calling a friend while you're driving in the car is
(33:40):
such a simple thing, and it feels so good, and
it's such an easy thing that we can each do.
So rather than going for that thing you normally do,
go for connection first, and then if they don't answer
or it doesn't work out, great, put on that podcast.
But that's an easy thing that.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
We can all do. Yeah, I mean, how can people
connect more meaningfully with others? Like I think a lot
of people on the autism spectrum struggle with a meaningful connection.
And I mean, do you just have any advice for
people who are really struggling to get past a superficial
level with people?
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, So that's a wonderful question. I think a lot
of people feel that way, whether or not they're on
the autism.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Spectrum, right for sure, for sure.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Yeah. And one approach that I describe in the book
is to ask better questions. It's interesting I hosted an
event some years ago where we brought together fifteen older
adults and fifteen millennials and gen Z and we paired
them up in intergenerational pairs and guided them through a
(34:49):
series of questions to help them just have conversation across ages.
And there were very simple questions. And at the end
of it, we sat around in the circle and reflected
on the experience and multiple people said, you know what
I can't get over is that I don't even ask
questions like these with the people already in my life,
(35:11):
like with my friends and family, my own age. Sometimes
there's this limiting belief where we think we can't go deeper,
when in fact you can, and a lot of times
people are more receptive to that than you think. And
so sometimes it's just about asking a question that invites
people to go deeper. And I'd love to know if
you have questions you love to ask, Scott, especially from coaching,
(35:34):
I think you probably have some good ones, But ones
I love are things like who is someone who had
a really big influence on you when you were growing up? Right?
Or what's a risk you took that has really paid
off in your life? Or another one of my favorites,
especially to start off kind of a meeting or a
gathering is what's your rose, thorn, and bud right now?
(35:57):
A rose is something positive that's going on in your life.
A thorn is a challenge you're experiencing. A bud is
something you're looking forward to. So like an easy way
to check in, but still go beyond that surface level
of what did you do this weekend? So questions like
that can just invite deeper conversation, and what we see
is that people generally are more receptive to that than
(36:17):
you might think.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
These are some of my favorites. When did you last
cry in front of another person? By yourself? What if
anything is too serious to be joked about? If you
were to die this evening with no opportunity to communicate
with anyone, what would you most regret not having told someone?
Why haven't you told them? So? Those one of my favorites.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Ooh, those are good.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
From Alene Aaron's research on the kinds of questions that
really help form connections with others.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
So do you use those when you're at a party
or when you're having coffee with someone or the context
in which you use them?
Speaker 2 (36:58):
No, I don't know if the very any of the
iron questions and uh, out of like a psychology study,
but those those those are some of my favorite from
that list of of like the scientifically like proven that
signs backed questions to form connections. But for me, you know,
it's so contextual, you know, with powerful coaching questions with clients,
(37:19):
you know, you're when you're really in the moment with them,
and you ask a lot of questions about like, you know,
what's beneath that, what's beneath that? You know? What's like
why you know and what? You know? What what would
what would happen if you got rid of that fear?
You know, that's often a really big one for people.
You know, it's just even contemplating what would I what
(37:42):
could I become? You know, you know because I do
self actualization coaching, So yeah, those are those are the
kinds of powerful questions. But I've always been a fan
of the alien uh the Arthur Aron studies, and I
do them with my class. Apparently the studies show that
like they bring in strangers asking these questions and by
the end they report they wanted much more likelyin chance,
(38:04):
people report they wanted to like actually romantically date the
other person. So you have to be careful with power
comes responsibility with these questions.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Absolutely, and you know it doesn't have to be so
kind of explicitly ask a deeper question. It could be
as simple as tell me more about that that's really
interesting and just being expressing curiosity and whatever it is
that someone's already talking about that deeper conversation.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Social curiosity is a whole area of research.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
I did the Exploration drive and the Openness to experience.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Yeah, and Scott, one of my friends and collaborator, Scott
shig Yoga, has a wonderful book called Seek where he
talks about curiosity and how that's a force for connection
as well.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
I had to check out that book.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, I think you'd like it.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
You strike me as someone who is very open to
new experiences, that's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, social curiosity, I
think that comes from your openness.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Well, and openness is a driver of connection. When you're
open to new experiences and new people, who knows who
you're going to meet?
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Right?
Speaker 1 (39:12):
And I talked earlier about how being socially healthy means
having diverse different ties and that includes people of different ages,
of people of different ethnicities, different beliefs, different cultures, and
so when you're open to experiences and curious about other
people's ways of living, that is diversifying the range of
friendships that you're able to form, and so that can
(39:35):
certainly be a powerful driver of connection.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
You do have the section of your book where you
talk about negative, the negative toll that sometimes talking to like,
I know that people use the phase toxic people now
a lot. They're like, oh, that person's talking about parent time.
But but there are certainly in the in the language
of high quality connections research, you know, some people feels
like you're in a black hole when you're talking to them.
(40:00):
It's a phrase that Jane Duddan used in one of
her papers on and I think we can all relate
to that. You know, there are people. I hope you
don't feel like you're in a black hole today, no podcast.
Usually high quality connections are ones that are feel buoygnant, creative, spontaneous, playful,
and they have certain characteristics. But what do you do
in these kinds of situations where you're interacting with people
(40:23):
that are really taking a negative toll in your social health?
I thought, I thought that was a really important part
of your book.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
It is really important not all connection is good connection.
And you said earlier I'm too positive but no positive, Well, okay,
that was my reading it.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
You're positive.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Well, yes, I'm definitely optimistic, but no, not all connection
is good connection. And there are people who it's not
healthy to be around, and it's not healthy to sustain
relationships with, and sometimes at the extreme level, that means
letting go of people from your life. And I think
(41:03):
part of being socially healthy means recognizing when a relationship
is not redeemable and when it's it's too negative and
taking more of a toll in the long run. Now,
there's a lot of nuance here, right, because sometimes there
are relationships where we just don't really get a get along.
But it's fine. There are you know, it's it's a
(41:26):
whole spectrum of how we're connecting with people. But I
think recognizing when a relationship is negative too much, right,
when the net is too negative, sometimes the socially healthy
thing to do is to move on and let let
that go and have boundaries and invest and double down
(41:48):
in the relationships that are nourishing, respectful kind. That's so important.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
I completely agree. I completely agree. I'm really glad you
brought that up. And I think that's that's a social
ill to be able to kind of be aware, Like
if you're a romantic relationship and you're like, no, this
is really not good social health, not good for my
social health, you know, being able to recognize that, or
relations with family members, relations with friends. Yeah, that seems
(42:16):
like a really important skill in the social health toolkit.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah, And I don't know if it's something you ever master, right,
but it's about it's about being aware.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
You know.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
If there's one takeaway that I want everyone to have
from this conversation from the book, it's that we need
to be intentional about connection, just like we're intentional about
what foods we eat hopefully or how much sleep we
get or things like that. It's really important to pay
attention to that, to reflect on how we're feeling, you know,
(42:52):
are the interactions that we're having on a day to
day basis, Do we actually feel meaningfully connected? Do we
feel more lonely? Are we having those needs met? And
how can we serve others too? Writ how can we
enhance the lives of the people around us through connecting
with them? So really being intentional, that's that's the key point.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Yeah, I love your metaphor, you know, you can think
about in the gym, you know, and and being able
to kind of I like my favor My favorite one
was the flexing of the social But I just texted
my producer am I being too corny in the I
needed to get his opinion on this. I feel like
(43:33):
being maybe too cheeky. But anyway, I think you're wonderful.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
You're such a great interviewer, Scott.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
And yeah, thank you, Cassie. I'm feeling like I'm like,
have I gone? Have I gone too far? In my
She's so serious, and I feel like I'm being really weird.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
But okay, oh my gosh, okay, but this is like
a meta learning.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
It is a meta learn.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
It is. It is because I ask these questions of
myself too. Every time I do a podcast, I get
off and I think, oh my god, I came across.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Just well, I think you're doing great.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Well, I think you're doing great.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Okay, good, Okay, I'll take it.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
But I want to take questions. I want to make
a point here, which is so there are great studies
showing that. For example, when you bring two strangers together
and you have them talk for a few minutes and
then you take them apart and the researchers ask each
individually how much did you like the other person and
how much do you think.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
They liked you.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
People significantly and consistently underestimate how much the other person
liked them.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
That's really important.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
It's really important, Scott, I like you more than you think,
and you probably like me more than I think.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
It's hilarious.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
We should have that mindset in our interactions because it's
you know, for for people like you and me who
are more introspective and perhaps you know, overly analytical about
how we're coming across in interactions. It's just release some
of that and we can all take confidence in knowing
that you're doing great at other people probably like you
(45:01):
more than you think.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
I love that research finding so much. I want to
just talk about, you know, just building up to society
at a broader level, because it's also a really important
part of your book, right, like how can we step
up and like I'm really big and empowering others And
it starts within you know, it starts with you. Like
(45:23):
if everyone woke up inspired to empower others in their
social health, like we would be a much better society.
You know, if every individual decided they wanted to do that.
So so what can people do as individuals? And then
you've any policy recommendations? M.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yeah, yes, So this is a line I kind of
straddle in the book where first and foremost it's meant
to be kind of a toolkit that empowers you as
an individual to take steps in your own life. But
coming from public health, I'm also very passionate about how
do we of those conditions. So focusing on the individual
(46:03):
for a second, because that is where it starts. Each
and every single one of us has the power to
change the culture that we live in through simple gestures.
And if most of us start doing that, or even
some of us start doing that, it begins to change
the fabric. So smiling and waving at your neighbors when
you pass them on the street or on the sidewalk,
(46:26):
introducing yourself to a new person who just started at
your company, right, being a little bit more friendly in
your interaction with a barista or someone the cashier when
you're checking out at the grocery store. Each of those
little touch points. First of all, the research, a lot
of studies show that those little touch points matter and
that actually they can boost our mood and make us
(46:49):
feel more connected to our communities. So on one hand,
there's that, but also it's about changing the social norms right,
and each step that you take really counts, and that
should be empowering to each of us that knowing that
what you do matters. At the same time, there are
these broader, kind of systemic changes that we need to
(47:10):
be making, and so you mentioned policy. There's a lot
of really interesting things going on in that space. There
is legislation proposed to start funding more solutions for loneliness
and programs around connection. The US Surgeon General's advisory last
year around loneliness as a public health priority, he made
many recommendations for how we collectively, you know, kind of
(47:33):
big we as a society can start changing our country,
and we need it. People are so polarized here in
the US. But then other countries are doing this as well.
You know, the UK and Japan both have ministers for loneliness.
Again in the book, you know, you mentioned earlier that
I'm sort of over loneliness. I think those should be
(47:53):
ministers for social health and focus on the goal that
we're moving toward rather than how it needs.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
To appoint you then ami health.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
And and so there's there's a lot of interesting momentum
where this is being taken seriously at the federal and
kind of global level, and that's really positive. And all
of those those steps add up. You know, in healthcare now,
there's a push toward social prescribing, where doctors are asking
about how connected you feel and prescribing opportunities for engagement
(48:29):
in the community. Right. There's a whole innovation wave of
technology innovators who are creating apps and different tools designed
for more meaningful connection rather than just ad revenue. Right.
And so you start to see that there's across sectors,
at all these different levels, there is so much momentum
(48:49):
and so much progress toward creating a more socially healthy culture.
I'm very optimistic that going forward. Well, you say I'm
too positive, but I know from my vantage you're not nice.
I see so many promising things underway that I think wonderful. Yeah,
we have a lot to look forward to and reasons
(49:11):
to be hopeful.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
I go up your positivity. I love it. The world
needs more of it. The world needs more of it
right now. Trust me, there's so much cynicism in America
right now and distrust of each other, and isn't that causing? Man?
I wish everyone read your book, and I also wish
that your book went everywhere in the education world. You know,
(49:34):
I'm very deeply passionate about education, and I see so
much potential when I was reading your book for teachers
to really instill these messages in children who. Of course,
loneliness is big, but as you note, you know, there's
a lot more to life than just not feeling lonely,
and especially in childhood feeling and also there's more than
(49:57):
belonging right, and so in childhood really being able to
have what would it mean to have like social gyms?
You know, you know, you have like regular gyms, but
like physical fitness gyms, but if you had like social
fitness challenges. I don't know. Is that corny that's in
the book?
Speaker 1 (50:14):
That's there? I think, my god, which chapter is it?
I literally talk about social fitness. It's happening, there's there,
there are companies creating them as we speak. Yeah. Absolutely,
But your point on schools, it's it's great. And there
are wonderful nonprofits like Only seven Seconds. I serve on
their scientific advisory board who that has a curriculum for
(50:37):
schools to help teach kids and teenagers to connect more
meaningfully beyond differences is another nonprofit that's that's working in
the space and has fantastic curriculum. So that's happening, making
caring common at the Harvard School of Education also has
phenomenal resources around teaching these skills and youth. So there there,
(51:02):
These are happening, and we just need to spread it
and proliferate it that much more so that it's really
embedded in our DNA.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
Yes, I love that. I love that. You know you're
talking about we need to spread these inspiring examples, And
I couldn't agree with that more. I mean, I just
feel like the news is constantly hitting us with kind
of the worst of humanity, and it is painting a
bleak picture right the even the Surgeon General, you know,
who I admire very much, and I have spoken to
(51:29):
him recently actually about about about transcend We had a
conversation about what is transcendence? Yes, what does he ask me?
What is transcendence? You know, how can we have So
we talked about how we can have more of that
and but but you know, he folks, you know loneliness,
you know, and and and and and all the stats
showing a bleak picture. So we need we need more
(51:50):
casolic Kilms in this world who show, uh, just give
give us hope, give us home, Come on, give us.
It's tough out here as being human.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
It is so tough being human, it really is.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
You know.
Speaker 1 (52:07):
Even the Surgeon General though last fall, he for the
first time that I'd seen he said, just like physical
and mental health, our social health is really important. So
that was the first time I'd seen him use that term.
And it is spreading right. More and more people are
recognizing that health is not just physical and mental, it's
also social. And the more that we recognize that and
(52:27):
invest in culture where social health is in our DNA,
the better off we will all be.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
I love it. Well, I think we should end on
that really great note. Well, I adore you, and I
and I really am rooting for you. I'm sincerely rooting
for you because I think that this is so important.
And yeah, I wish you all the luck with the
rest of your book tour. How I hope you can
find the asfl introvert who has done book tours. Maybe
(52:59):
I'll give you all wine I'll give you some tips
because it can get rough. It can get you know
you're doing, like podcasts after podcast or a podcast, you
know you really need to make sure you take care
of yourself. Is what I'm saying. Make sure you take
care of yourself.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
Thank you, I appreciate it. I'm just grateful to be
having conversations about this, and I really appreciate you having
me on This is a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
It's a pleasure for me too.
Multiple people said, you know what I can't get over
is that I don't even ask questions like these with
the people already in my life, like with my friends
and family, my own age. Sometimes there's this limiting belief
where we think we can't go deeper, when in fact
you can, and a lot of times people are more
receptive to that than you think.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Today we have Cassily Kilheim on the show. Cassily is
a leading expert in social health, Drawing from over a
decade of studying, sharing, and applying the science of human connection.
She elevates the idea of social health as a writer
and speaker, and helps individuals, communities, and organizations become more
socially healthy. Cassily leads the nonprofit Social Health Labs, whose
(00:46):
programs have connected and inspired thousands of people across the
US and globe since launching in twenty twenty. In this episode,
we discussed Cassily's latest book, The Art and Science of Connection,
Why Social Health is the Missing key to living longer, healthier,
and happier. Cassily argues that physical and mental health are
incomplete without social health and makes a persuasive case for
(01:09):
why social health should be prioritized a lot more in
our society than currently is. We discuss why cultivating meaningful
relationships is as vital as exercise, nutrition, and sleep, and
the ways for us all to be more socially healthy.
So let's get into it. I bring you Cassily Kill Them,
Cassily Kill Them. Well, congratulations on your new book, and
(01:31):
welcome to the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Thank you so much, Scott. I'm truly honored to be
talking to you today.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
It's good to see you. It's great to see you.
It's been many years. It's been many years.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Had blue hair the last time I saw you, Carson.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I'm sur I've been through many phases in the past
five six years. Blue blonde. This is more my natural
and the hair cover right now. It looks good.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
It looks good.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Well, thank you, thank you well. Absolutely delightful to chat
with you again and about your new book, which is
very important in this time that we're living in. But
I gotta ask, why are you so over loneliness?
Speaker 1 (02:10):
That's a good good spot to start. Well, so let
me start by saying I have worked on loneliness for
many years, and it's truly an issue that's very important
at this time in our history. Loneliness is very widespread.
Many people feel disconnected. There are very worrisome trends. You know,
(02:32):
friendship is in decline, the number of friends that people have,
but also the amount of time that people spend with
their friends has gone down, you know, the extent to
which people belong to communities and clubs and groups that
they're involved in, and just experiences of disconnection. There are
studies showing that people go weeks at a time without
(02:52):
talking to a single family member or friend, and that
people don't feel like they have anyone who knows them
well at.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
A deeper time, consider that a good week.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Well, so we'll get into that about what's the right Yeah, okay,
so we'll come back to that for sure. But having
the option to be able to talk to friends and
family you want to is really vital. And so loneliness
is a huge problem, and last year the US Surgeon
General declared it as a public health priority here in
(03:23):
the US. The World Health Organization launched a Commission on
Social Connection, recognizing that loneliness is a public health issue.
So it's a topic I really care about and I've
worked on it for years. I give talks, I run
programs related to addressing loneliness. I advise organizations in the space,
and it's something I can care about and will continue
(03:44):
to care about. The reason I say I'm over loneliness
in the book, which is a bit provocative, is because
I think it's time to shift the conversation and broaden
the lens of how we're really thinking about how helping
people live more meaningfully connected lives. For one thing, a
(04:05):
lot of people really underestimate the importance of our relationships
for our health. So there are studies showing that people
don't even recognize that relational factors, you know, whether or
not we feel connected, that that predicts our longevity. So
there's this sense that not enough people realize this is
about health. There's also the fact that loneliness is just
(04:25):
one signal of what I refer to as social health. Right, So,
in the same way with physical health, if you're not obese,
that doesn't mean that you're necessarily physically healthy. There are
other metrics that matter than just your weight, Right. You
also need to get quality sleep and eat healthy foods. Right.
If you're skinny, but you're not eating quality foods that
(04:47):
are nutritious and fuel you, that's not being fully physically healthy.
So a lot of people who don't necessarily identify as
feeling lonely, still there are opportunities for them to strengthen
their social muscles and connect in other meaningful ways. Maybe you,
you know, feel connected to friends and family, but you
don't feel like you belong in the workplace, or you
(05:08):
don't have a sense of community locally where you live,
So that there are these other ways that we can
help improve people's social health. And so I'm very passionate
about shifting the conversation and helping us look at the
broader picture that loneliness is one piece of social health,
(05:30):
and what I mean by that is that, you know,
our relationships determine our health as much as anything else.
And so in the same way that we talk about
physical and mental health, we need to talk about social health.
And that lens can be really empowering and help us
think about new opportunities to support people if we move
away from just focusing on the negative toward towards some
(05:53):
of the positive.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
I'm very positive psychology of you, it's very.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Positive psychology of me. Yes. So, as you know, we've
both spent time at the University of Pennsylvania, at the
Positive Psychology Center, and that had a huge influence on
the way that I think about this. And also, you know,
a lot of feedback that I get from organizations, you know,
when they run surveys with their community members where their
(06:18):
users asking how lonely they are, it creates what I
hear is that it pushes people away. Right Sometimes that
actually leaves people feeling worse. Whereas if we shift the
conversation and focus on more of an asset lens and
talk about social health or connection or community and start
thinking about the strengths that we can build in people
(06:38):
start thinking about the opportunities for connection. Perhaps they're two
sides of the same coin, but as we saw with
the Positive Psychology movement, it can help open up these
new possibilities for how we're approaching the conversation, how we're
actually supporting people to live better lives. So when I
sam over loneliness, really what I mean is that I
think it's time now, given how much attention there is
(07:01):
to this issue, and also the fact that loneliness rates
aren't necessarily getting better, it's time to move upstream to
look at this bigger picture and think about how we
can all strengthen our social health and create the conditions
for social health in society.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Yeah, it reminds me a little bit of Corey Key's
approach to mental health continuum, saying that languishing is not
exactly the opposite of mental health. If you're not languishing,
you're not necessarily flourishing exactly. So Yeah, No, it's very
a very very very interesting approach, which is consistent with
(07:40):
a lot of other research. Very cool. So, tell our
audience a little bit about you, about your background, How
did you become one of the leaders in the social
health space. Yeah, introduce yourself to my audience.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
I love Scott's audience. Honored to do.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
I want to know more about you as a human ensure.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
So, I have a vivid memory of being on a
playground as a little kid at my elementary school, observing
my friends and other peers and watching how they were
interacting with each other and who was left out and
who was in the heart of it. And from that
very very young age, I can remember just being fascinated
(08:22):
by people and trying to understand how I fit in
with other people and how others were interacting amongst themselves,
and trying to make sense of the social world around me,
and as I got oh older, you know, I navigated
first of all, recognizing that I was an introvert and
trying to figure out how do you survive and thrive
(08:46):
as someone who needs a balance of socializing and solitude
and can't always be engaging with people and actually values
alone time, and trying to navigate that in school, in
the workplace, life in general. I also experience some conflict
within my family, within groups around me, and certainly saw
(09:11):
a lot of that on the news and in the world,
and was always very interested in how do we help
people connect across divides, how do we foster more empathy
and compassion and forgiveness so that we can overcome the
challenges relationally that we all experience and the conflict. And
then also I've moved around a lot of times. I've
(09:33):
lived in three countries and I think twelve cities and
towns now, So every single time that I moved to
a new place, I had to start fresh, make new friends,
build new community, while also staying connected to loved ones
far away. And so in all these ways, I've kind
of personally been exploring my own social health and trying
(09:53):
to understand what it means for me to be socially
healthy and how to optimize that, And so I really
turned to the research and speaking of positive psychology, I
mean that was a turning point for me, spending time
at you pen and starting to come across the research
literature on social connection and kindness and compassion and all
(10:15):
these ideas of how we could connect more meaningfully. It
was the most exciting thing to come across that research,
and all of my work since then has been an
expiration of how do we actually apply those research insights
in our own lives? Right? How do we bridge what's
in the academic research with what it means to go
(10:36):
about our days? And so through various ways professionally, I've
been trying to bridge that, and then now most recently
with this book, this is really the culmination of over
a decade of exploring this theme and trying to take
the research insights and make them practical and also leverage
from stories and experiences around us for how we can
(10:57):
each approach our social lives so that we can of healthier.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
I love that. And you have a degree from Harvard, right, I.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Do, yes, the Masters in Public Health. Yeah, So I
studied I guess I should mention that in that part.
I also in twenty nineteen do the masters at the
school Harvard School of Public Health focused on solutions for
loneliness and how we can create a more meaningfully connected
world really through the lens of public health, so thinking
(11:26):
about not just empowering us as individuals, but also how
do we create an environment where social health can more
naturally arise?
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Right?
Speaker 1 (11:36):
What do we need to do in policy, How do
we need to design our technology, what do we need
to be teaching in schools, How do we design our cities.
I spent a lot of time looking at the research
on what in the built environment helps people foster connection.
So really, through all these different lenses, how do we
actually create a culture where we can be socially healthy
(11:58):
more easily? Given that so many people are experiencing loneliness
and disconnection in different ways.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Right now, Absolutely, it strikes me that that one of
the reasons why there's this loneliness is like I think
everyone kind of feels like they're weird. They're the weird one,
you know, Like they're like, where do I belong? I
think there's a real belonging issue. Is that is that
part of the work you kind of that you've looked
into is kind of this the sense of like, where
(12:23):
do I fit in in this in the social fabric
of this universe? Yeah, I know, I know I deal
with that.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
So I do too, absolutely, And I think you're probably
right that everyone does to some extent. You know, we're
feeling connected, Feeling like we belong and like we matter
is so essential and core. It's a fundamental human need
that we all seek for survival purposes, but also in
(12:51):
order to thrive and feel fulfilled and happy. And we
need reassurance, right, We seek we want to know that yeah,
we're good. I care about you, I see you, and
so I think that's an important part of it. But
there's there are many factors that are contributing to the
(13:11):
fact that people feel so disconnected. Right, That's one of them.
There are a lot of factors in our modern culture. Right.
Technology is one piece that comes up a lot in
social media and the ways in which that's rewiring how
we connect and inhibiting us in some ways and helping
us in others. There's the trends, like a lot of
(13:32):
people move around more frequently, there's higher rates of transience,
there's higher rates of living alone, so not being embedded
in your family or in the community that you grew
up with, and going out and being independent, which I'm
guilty of. Right I've moved away from I live away
from family right now. I've moved for work many times
rather than moving for family and for community. And so
(13:57):
there are many different trends going on that are coalescing
to mean that it's just it feels hard to connect
right now and to feel like we do belong.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
But and yet when you said that you feel like
I feel too, I felt a greater sense of connection
to you. So maybe more people need to express how
they feel to each other and maybe realize that they're
not the only one who thinks they're weird.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Absolutely, and that's why a lot of the efforts to
destigmatize loneliness are so important, because it turns out that
every single one of us feels lonely at some point
in our lives. And that's a normal human experience, and
it's actually a healthy human experience.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
So, just like our bodies tell us when we're hungry
or we're thirsty, our bodies and brains telling us that
we're lonely is our bodies way of saying, hey, you
need to connect, and that's a natural human signal, and
being able to talk about that and open up honestly
one another is important. There's also so much research, as
you know, showing that vulnerability helps bring us closer together.
(15:09):
So when I confide in you or you can fighte
in me, that engenders trust, That engenders likability, right, so
we're more likely to get along. So ironically talking about
loneliness or other fears and social anxieties that we have
can help us connect more meaningfully and actually help us
overcome that.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, and yeah, for sure, like research shows secret sharing
is a great way to bond with someone as well
as gossiping, So we won't do either right now on
the Psychology podcast.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
No gossiping, no way.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Maybe over coffee, but maybe over coffee later we'll do
the secret sharing gossiping. Yeah. I'd love to hear your
multi dimensional conceptualization of the concept of social health because
you have a very unique you have your own sort
(16:03):
of way of conceptualizing it and the main components of it.
What are the parameters of it, you know, the boundary conditions,
all that good stuff.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
So this was a term that I came across in
the research that was first defined by a scholar named
Robert D. Russel back in the early nineteen seventies. And
when I read this paper, it was such a light
bulb moment for me because it unified a lot of
the themes that I was seeing in the research. So,
right now, if you dig into the data, there's social connection,
(16:33):
there's social cohesion, social capital, social connectedness, social networks. It
goes on and on, social support. There's so many different
ways that we're tapping into our social lives. But what
are they all adding up to, right? What is the
value of all of that? All of those tie into
(16:53):
this broader theme of social health, which is that they
matter because connection is how we throw And so I
think the language of social health is really powerful because
one it underscores the health significance of our relationships, right,
And I mentioned earlier that research shows people underestimate that,
So that's really important. In the same way that the
(17:14):
language of mental health helps us take our emotions seriously,
the language of social health can help us take our
relationships more seriously. And so the way I like to
think about this is that if you think of your
overall health and well being you as an individual person.
Think of it like a Greek temple, right, and a
Greek temple has different columns that are supporting the structure overall.
(17:38):
There's a physical column, there's a mental column, there's a
social column. There could be other columns like spiritual dimensions
or environmental dimensions, right. But my aim is to really
elevate this social pillar because what I saw when I
came across that paper by Russell was that there was
very little information about that, and it's social health isn't
(18:01):
talked about in the same way that physical and mental
health are a regular part of our conversations today. It's
really missing from sort of the public discourse. And even
on Wikipedia there's over seven million articles, not one of
them is dedicated to social health.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
So the part of me you should create one, Well.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yeah, someone needs to, for sure. But isn't that interesting
that now, all these years later, there isn't even a
Wikipedia page about this, So it's really just not a term.
And I see this all the time in groups I
talk to or articles I write, where people are like, oh,
this social health thing, that's really interesting. And so it's
(18:44):
so important to elevate this because it's part of your
overall health and well being. So if physical health is
about your body and mental health is about your mind,
social health is about your relationships. And by seeing these
pillars as vital and supporting each other and strengthening your
overall health temple, that's going to inform the actions that
(19:05):
you take to be healthy. So, yes, you need to
exercise and get a good night's sleep and maybe go
to therapy or practice meditation or things like that to
be physically and mentally strong. But you can't be fully
healthy if you're not also cultivating close relationships and cultivating
a sense of community. Those are vital health actions as well.
(19:27):
And to thrive as humans and to be healthy and
live a long time, that's an essential component.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, I'm sure that there's no one size fits all approach,
you know, Like one of in the media kit that
was sent to me, one of the questions is what
is the right amount and type of connection? I feel
fulfilled and REPELP. But that can't be the right question, right,
Like introverts might have a different optimal than extroverts, right, Like,
how do you even go about answering such a question? Since, yeah, well.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
That's exactly the point is that there is no one
right amount and type of connection for you. That's exactly
the point. And so and in the same way that
you and I might not need to eat the same
number of calories in a given day, right, we each
have different numbers that are right for us and our
health behaviors. And so in the book, I explore these
(20:21):
four styles.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
That I described as chapter is it? Oh fine, I
love individual differences research. I really like that level.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yes, well, it's so important because you know, a lot
of times there are different guidelines for how to be healthy,
walk ten thousand steps a day, get eight hours of
sleep at night, things like that, and those are helpful
because they're starting points and they can kind of anchor
us as we explore our own individual health needs. But
there is no one right number when it comes to connection,
(20:52):
and we can have starting points, and I do give
them in the book, but ultimately it's about exploring what's
meaning to you. So the four social health styles that
I describe are based on the amount and type of
connection that is more fulfilling for you or feels more
comfortable for you. So one, the first style is called
(21:16):
a butterfly. So this is an idea we're all kind
of familiar with, right, a social butterfly. So this is
someone who likes a lot of interaction and really enjoys
kind of more casual connection, someone who's the life of
a party, who really puts other people at ease. That's
a butterfly. The second idea is, and just to build on,
(21:37):
that's if you think about butterflies in nature, right, they're
kind of fluttering around from flower to flower, pollinating and
drinking nectar in return, so there's this beautiful exchange, and
so that's kind of the idea of a social butterfly.
The second style is a wallflower. So again a term
we're sort of familiar with wallflowers in nature. They're sort
(21:58):
of unassuming plan that grow against walls or in cracks,
but they often actually have really powerful medicinal properties, and
in ancient times we're used for medicine, so maybe we
kind of don't give them the attention they deserve. Wallflowers,
you know, in tend toward having less frequent interaction and
(22:19):
more casual connection. That's sort of their sweet spot and
what their personality more naturally gravitates toward. The third style
is a firefly. So this is someone who likes, again,
infrequent interaction, but deep connection. So this is me. I
love long periods of alone time, but when I'm with
my friends and family, I want to get to the
heart of the matter and move past chitchat. That's what
(22:43):
brings me alive, right. I love that, I love connecting
with my loved ones, but also I need periods of
solitude in order to recharge. So that's a firefly. And
then the final fourth style is called an evergreen. So
this is someone who likes a lot of interaction in
a deep way. So someone who's constantly in communication with
(23:04):
their very close friends and family and that really lights
them up. Just like an evergreen in nature is a
plant that's lush and green all year round, right, whereas
a firefly glows brightly in synchrony with other fireflies and
then retreats into the night sky and disappears. So these
different concepts are meant to help align you with what
(23:27):
is the right amount of and type of connection for
you and invite people to reflect. I mean, actually, I
partnered with The New York Times to do a ten
question quiz that helps people figure out their social health style,
which was a lot of fun so there's that's a
quiz that everyone can go take and then learn more
in the book.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
I was going to say, it'd be very interesting to
see how these map onto the Big five personality traits consolutely. Then, yeah,
what are some barriers that you see to being socially healthy?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Sure? So one of the biggest ones is that we
all feel busy, right. People are busy, caught up in
our day to day in doing the work that we
need to do, and in taking care of our families
and just trying to make ends meet. There's a sense
(24:20):
of modern life feeling really busy, where people just don't
have the time to do the things that they want
to do. That's kind of the sense the lot of
us feel. And sometimes connection in our relationships can be
the first thing to fall to the wayside, right, the
last thing that we prioritize, because all of these other
(24:40):
things are urgent. And I'm still guilty of this even
as someone who studies this. I mean recently I realized
that my husband and I hadn't seen our friends in
several months, who literally live five minutes away from us.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
You know, I think take people for granted totally.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
We can take people for granted, and not stay in
touch as frequently as we all want. It's very easy
for that to happen, right. It's oftentimes our social health
is not a priority in the way that work is.
For example, we spend so much time working, which many
of us love, I love I love my job, and
(25:18):
we have to do it to pay our bills as well.
But if we're not also making time to have the
enriching relationships that fuel us, then you know that that's
definitely one of the barriers to being socially healthy.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
What about antisocial people, people with antisocial personality disorder, I
don't feel like they're very inclusive in your book.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Yeah, tell me more about that. How how could we
from that?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
How? Look, I'm just I can't. That's a cheat. Like
what about people that hate people?
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Well, it's funny you say that. So on the New
York Times quiz when they posted on Instagram, I saw
this comment where someone said, you need to add a
fifth option. That's a cicada who you know does goes
retreats for thirteen years and then comes out every now
and then to kind of make some noise and then yeah,
it does away again. So I think that there's something
to that. Maybe there's a fifth style there, not wanting
(26:12):
to be around people at all, but we all need
some amount of connection.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
So most most humans, for sure, they are the operations,
the extreme outliers. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Yeah, although it's interesting. I don't know if you've seen
the show Alone. Have you ever watched that? It's a
survival show where people who are survivalists go out into
nature by themselves and have to survive as long as
they can alone. And I love the show because it's
it's very interesting. But what's fascinating to me is that
(26:46):
one of the top reasons people drop out and just
quit the whole thing is not because they don't have
the survival skills they need. It's because they start to
feel lonely and they miss their family and friends, and
they say, what am I doing? What's what's the point
so I can win some money? No, I'd much rather
I'd much rather spend the next few months with with
(27:08):
the people I care about.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
So there's there doesn't even even in the extreme conditions. Yeah, well,
you know, it's there's certainly a fundamental human drive there.
What do you think about my distinction and transcend between
the need for belonging and the need for intimacy. I
feel like they're too are lumped together. Sometimes they're both
part of the connection drive, but they can be pulled
(27:33):
apart in various ways. I wonder what you thought of that.
You know, like, uh, it's possible to feel belonging to
a group or organization but don't feel a relatedness at all,
don't feel like in a sense of intimacy, you know,
like like DEI programs are obsessively focused on belonging. But
you know, there's more to life than just feeling like
(27:54):
you belong there, you know, like, how much do people
actually care about you as a human, as a whole human,
not just one dement know you?
Speaker 1 (28:00):
You know?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
And so these are just some thoughts that I've had
in my own work. What do you think of that?
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yeah, I love that. Thank you for bringing in that nuance.
I think there can be value to both, right, It
helps us to feel connected if we're part of a
group where we feel like we belong. But to your point,
it's so important and so valuable to have at least
one person in your life who really knows who you are,
(28:30):
loves you unconditionally, the good and the bad. That you
can confide in.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Right.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
I Mean, the way I think about it is that,
and the research supports us, is that being socially healthy
means having all different diverse ties that you can lean on.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Right.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
So you have those really emotionally intimate relationships, hopefully at
least one, right, and frankly one is wonderful if you
have one person who really gets you and you have
that emotional intimacy with that's.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
A gift in this life.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
And then expanding beyond that, you have all these other
kinds of ties. You have more casual friends who you
enjoy sharing experiences with or hanging out with on a
Friday night. You have family, You have coworkers and the
ongoing interaction that you get hopefully on a day to
day basis with people you collaborate with. You have the
groups that you belong to and hopefully a sense of
(29:23):
belonging in some of those.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
So it's about having these diverse different ties. And so
many studies, in fact, there was a new one that
I just saw yesterday that I haven't had a chance
to read, but again that are showing that the more
diverse are ties, the better off we are in terms
of our well being. But also our health outcomes. So
it's really important to diversify. And just like you know,
(29:45):
if you get all of your emotional needs from your
romantic partner, well what if you're fighting with your romantic partner,
where do you turn for support in that situation? We
need to have different kinds of people who we can
reach out to and show different parts of ourselves too.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Mm hmm. Yeah, that's why cheating is prominent. Yeah, so
what what you're just going in there? Yeah, it is
cheating it you're so positive, you're so positive. You gotta
gotta throw in some of the truth about human nature
a little bit. But anyway, what individuals can do. I
(30:21):
really want to focus on the rest of this interview
on really practical things that really brilliant stuff that you
have in your in your book about that the things
that people can do. You have this for these four
strategies to optimize social health, because you do for your
social health is as like exercise, right, that's am I
getting that right? Exactly? Your model that and so so
(30:43):
you know, continuing in that metaphor like stretching, resting, tone
and flexing that kind of like the rhythmic aspect of
that stretching, resting, toning, and flexing. Can you kind of
elaborate a little bit on those four?
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Absolutely? Yes. So the analogy here is to think about
how you strengthen your physical muscles, right. So, the first
strategy to strengthen your social muscles is to stretch. So
if you stretch your body, it's because you want to
become more flexible. You want to stretch it out. If
you stretch your social muscles, this is about wanting more connection, right, So,
(31:20):
making new friends, seeking new communities to be part of
expanding your social circle. That's how you stretch your social muscles.
The second strategy is to rest, So with physical exercise,
it's actually really important to have rest days and rest
time in between reps or in between workouts so that
your body can recover right and actually integrate the exercise
(31:43):
that you're doing. And in that same way, we can
rest our social muscles and actually either connect less right,
connect more with ourselves, take them alone time, or just
sort of be content with the number of connections that
you have and double down on those. The third strategy
is to tone. So if your tone your social muscles,
(32:04):
your physical muscles. Rather, it's really about getting stronger, right,
deepening deepening your muscles. Similarly with toning your social muscles,
that's about deepening your relationships, right, fostering closer more emotional
intimacy to your point. And then the final strategy is
to flex. So just like you flex your social muscles
and you kind of show off the strong muscles you've built,
(32:27):
you can flex your social muscles, which is really about
sustaining your relationships in the long term and continually investing
in them over time. So those are the four strategies,
and then there are many many tips that I go
into on how how we can think about doing that
and what strategy is right for you at a given time.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yeah, and people need to buy your book, so we're
not going to give it all away, but you maybe
give me one social fitness exercise that I can do today.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Sure, Yeah, So one very easy one I'll start with
that is to go for connection first. So oftentimes we have,
you know, we're driving in the car and you put
on a podcast to listen to to, or you put
on some music while you're driving in the car, or
(33:18):
a meeting ends early and you have fifteen minutes where
you're just kind of scrolling through headlines or scrolling through
emails and not getting much done. The idea here is
to go for connection first. So rather than immediately putting
on that podcast, or rather than immediately going on social
media and scrolling mindlessly text or call a friend. Right,
Calling a friend while you're driving in the car is
(33:40):
such a simple thing, and it feels so good, and
it's such an easy thing that we can each do.
So rather than going for that thing you normally do,
go for connection first, and then if they don't answer
or it doesn't work out, great, put on that podcast.
But that's an easy thing that.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
We can all do. Yeah, I mean, how can people
connect more meaningfully with others? Like I think a lot
of people on the autism spectrum struggle with a meaningful connection.
And I mean, do you just have any advice for
people who are really struggling to get past a superficial
level with people?
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, So that's a wonderful question. I think a lot
of people feel that way, whether or not they're on
the autism.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Spectrum, right for sure, for sure.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Yeah. And one approach that I describe in the book
is to ask better questions. It's interesting I hosted an
event some years ago where we brought together fifteen older
adults and fifteen millennials and gen Z and we paired
them up in intergenerational pairs and guided them through a
(34:49):
series of questions to help them just have conversation across ages.
And there were very simple questions. And at the end
of it, we sat around in the circle and reflected
on the experience and multiple people said, you know what
I can't get over is that I don't even ask
questions like these with the people already in my life,
(35:11):
like with my friends and family, my own age. Sometimes
there's this limiting belief where we think we can't go deeper,
when in fact you can, and a lot of times
people are more receptive to that than you think. And
so sometimes it's just about asking a question that invites
people to go deeper. And I'd love to know if
you have questions you love to ask, Scott, especially from coaching,
(35:34):
I think you probably have some good ones, But ones
I love are things like who is someone who had
a really big influence on you when you were growing up? Right?
Or what's a risk you took that has really paid
off in your life? Or another one of my favorites,
especially to start off kind of a meeting or a
gathering is what's your rose, thorn, and bud right now?
(35:57):
A rose is something positive that's going on in your life.
A thorn is a challenge you're experiencing. A bud is
something you're looking forward to. So like an easy way
to check in, but still go beyond that surface level
of what did you do this weekend? So questions like
that can just invite deeper conversation, and what we see
is that people generally are more receptive to that than
(36:17):
you might think.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
These are some of my favorites. When did you last
cry in front of another person? By yourself? What if
anything is too serious to be joked about? If you
were to die this evening with no opportunity to communicate
with anyone, what would you most regret not having told someone?
Why haven't you told them? So? Those one of my favorites.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Ooh, those are good.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
From Alene Aaron's research on the kinds of questions that
really help form connections with others.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
So do you use those when you're at a party
or when you're having coffee with someone or the context
in which you use them?
Speaker 2 (36:58):
No, I don't know if the very any of the
iron questions and uh, out of like a psychology study,
but those those those are some of my favorite from
that list of of like the scientifically like proven that
signs backed questions to form connections. But for me, you know,
it's so contextual, you know, with powerful coaching questions with clients,
(37:19):
you know, you're when you're really in the moment with them,
and you ask a lot of questions about like, you know,
what's beneath that, what's beneath that? You know? What's like
why you know and what? You know? What what would
what would happen if you got rid of that fear?
You know, that's often a really big one for people.
You know, it's just even contemplating what would I what
(37:42):
could I become? You know, you know because I do
self actualization coaching, So yeah, those are those are the
kinds of powerful questions. But I've always been a fan
of the alien uh the Arthur Aron studies, and I
do them with my class. Apparently the studies show that
like they bring in strangers asking these questions and by
the end they report they wanted much more likelyin chance,
(38:04):
people report they wanted to like actually romantically date the
other person. So you have to be careful with power
comes responsibility with these questions.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Absolutely, and you know it doesn't have to be so
kind of explicitly ask a deeper question. It could be
as simple as tell me more about that that's really
interesting and just being expressing curiosity and whatever it is
that someone's already talking about that deeper conversation.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Social curiosity is a whole area of research.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
I did the Exploration drive and the Openness to experience.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Yeah, and Scott, one of my friends and collaborator, Scott
shig Yoga, has a wonderful book called Seek where he
talks about curiosity and how that's a force for connection
as well.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
I had to check out that book.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, I think you'd like it.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
You strike me as someone who is very open to
new experiences, that's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, social curiosity, I
think that comes from your openness.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Well, and openness is a driver of connection. When you're
open to new experiences and new people, who knows who
you're going to meet?
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Right?
Speaker 1 (39:12):
And I talked earlier about how being socially healthy means
having diverse different ties and that includes people of different ages,
of people of different ethnicities, different beliefs, different cultures, and
so when you're open to experiences and curious about other
people's ways of living, that is diversifying the range of
friendships that you're able to form, and so that can
(39:35):
certainly be a powerful driver of connection.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
You do have the section of your book where you
talk about negative, the negative toll that sometimes talking to like,
I know that people use the phase toxic people now
a lot. They're like, oh, that person's talking about parent time.
But but there are certainly in the in the language
of high quality connections research, you know, some people feels
like you're in a black hole when you're talking to them.
(40:00):
It's a phrase that Jane Duddan used in one of
her papers on and I think we can all relate
to that. You know, there are people. I hope you
don't feel like you're in a black hole today, no podcast.
Usually high quality connections are ones that are feel buoygnant, creative, spontaneous, playful,
and they have certain characteristics. But what do you do
in these kinds of situations where you're interacting with people
(40:23):
that are really taking a negative toll in your social health?
I thought, I thought that was a really important part
of your book.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
It is really important not all connection is good connection.
And you said earlier I'm too positive but no positive, Well, okay,
that was my reading it.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
You're positive.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Well, yes, I'm definitely optimistic, but no, not all connection
is good connection. And there are people who it's not
healthy to be around, and it's not healthy to sustain
relationships with, and sometimes at the extreme level, that means
letting go of people from your life. And I think
(41:03):
part of being socially healthy means recognizing when a relationship
is not redeemable and when it's it's too negative and
taking more of a toll in the long run. Now,
there's a lot of nuance here, right, because sometimes there
are relationships where we just don't really get a get along.
But it's fine. There are you know, it's it's a
(41:26):
whole spectrum of how we're connecting with people. But I
think recognizing when a relationship is negative too much, right,
when the net is too negative, sometimes the socially healthy
thing to do is to move on and let let
that go and have boundaries and invest and double down
(41:48):
in the relationships that are nourishing, respectful kind. That's so important.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
I completely agree. I completely agree. I'm really glad you
brought that up. And I think that's that's a social
ill to be able to kind of be aware, Like
if you're a romantic relationship and you're like, no, this
is really not good social health, not good for my
social health, you know, being able to recognize that, or
relations with family members, relations with friends. Yeah, that seems
(42:16):
like a really important skill in the social health toolkit.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah, And I don't know if it's something you ever master, right,
but it's about it's about being aware.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
You know.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
If there's one takeaway that I want everyone to have
from this conversation from the book, it's that we need
to be intentional about connection, just like we're intentional about
what foods we eat hopefully or how much sleep we
get or things like that. It's really important to pay
attention to that, to reflect on how we're feeling, you know,
(42:52):
are the interactions that we're having on a day to
day basis, Do we actually feel meaningfully connected? Do we
feel more lonely? Are we having those needs met? And
how can we serve others too? Writ how can we
enhance the lives of the people around us through connecting
with them? So really being intentional, that's that's the key point.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Yeah, I love your metaphor, you know, you can think
about in the gym, you know, and and being able
to kind of I like my favor My favorite one
was the flexing of the social But I just texted
my producer am I being too corny in the I
needed to get his opinion on this. I feel like
(43:33):
being maybe too cheeky. But anyway, I think you're wonderful.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
You're such a great interviewer, Scott.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
And yeah, thank you, Cassie. I'm feeling like I'm like,
have I gone? Have I gone too far? In my
She's so serious, and I feel like I'm being really weird.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
But okay, oh my gosh, okay, but this is like
a meta learning.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
It is a meta learn.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
It is. It is because I ask these questions of
myself too. Every time I do a podcast, I get
off and I think, oh my god, I came across.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Just well, I think you're doing great.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Well, I think you're doing great.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Okay, good, Okay, I'll take it.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
But I want to take questions. I want to make
a point here, which is so there are great studies
showing that. For example, when you bring two strangers together
and you have them talk for a few minutes and
then you take them apart and the researchers ask each
individually how much did you like the other person and
how much do you think.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
They liked you.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
People significantly and consistently underestimate how much the other person
liked them.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
That's really important.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
It's really important, Scott, I like you more than you think,
and you probably like me more than I think.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
It's hilarious.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
We should have that mindset in our interactions because it's
you know, for for people like you and me who
are more introspective and perhaps you know, overly analytical about
how we're coming across in interactions. It's just release some
of that and we can all take confidence in knowing
that you're doing great at other people probably like you
(45:01):
more than you think.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
I love that research finding so much. I want to
just talk about, you know, just building up to society
at a broader level, because it's also a really important
part of your book, right, like how can we step
up and like I'm really big and empowering others And
it starts within you know, it starts with you. Like
(45:23):
if everyone woke up inspired to empower others in their
social health, like we would be a much better society.
You know, if every individual decided they wanted to do that.
So so what can people do as individuals? And then
you've any policy recommendations? M.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yeah, yes, So this is a line I kind of
straddle in the book where first and foremost it's meant
to be kind of a toolkit that empowers you as
an individual to take steps in your own life. But
coming from public health, I'm also very passionate about how
do we of those conditions. So focusing on the individual
(46:03):
for a second, because that is where it starts. Each
and every single one of us has the power to
change the culture that we live in through simple gestures.
And if most of us start doing that, or even
some of us start doing that, it begins to change
the fabric. So smiling and waving at your neighbors when
you pass them on the street or on the sidewalk,
(46:26):
introducing yourself to a new person who just started at
your company, right, being a little bit more friendly in
your interaction with a barista or someone the cashier when
you're checking out at the grocery store. Each of those
little touch points. First of all, the research, a lot
of studies show that those little touch points matter and
that actually they can boost our mood and make us
(46:49):
feel more connected to our communities. So on one hand,
there's that, but also it's about changing the social norms right,
and each step that you take really counts, and that
should be empowering to each of us that knowing that
what you do matters. At the same time, there are
these broader, kind of systemic changes that we need to
(47:10):
be making, and so you mentioned policy. There's a lot
of really interesting things going on in that space. There
is legislation proposed to start funding more solutions for loneliness
and programs around connection. The US Surgeon General's advisory last
year around loneliness as a public health priority, he made
many recommendations for how we collectively, you know, kind of
(47:33):
big we as a society can start changing our country,
and we need it. People are so polarized here in
the US. But then other countries are doing this as well.
You know, the UK and Japan both have ministers for loneliness.
Again in the book, you know, you mentioned earlier that
I'm sort of over loneliness. I think those should be
(47:53):
ministers for social health and focus on the goal that
we're moving toward rather than how it needs.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
To appoint you then ami health.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
And and so there's there's a lot of interesting momentum
where this is being taken seriously at the federal and
kind of global level, and that's really positive. And all
of those those steps add up. You know, in healthcare now,
there's a push toward social prescribing, where doctors are asking
about how connected you feel and prescribing opportunities for engagement
(48:29):
in the community. Right. There's a whole innovation wave of
technology innovators who are creating apps and different tools designed
for more meaningful connection rather than just ad revenue. Right.
And so you start to see that there's across sectors,
at all these different levels, there is so much momentum
(48:49):
and so much progress toward creating a more socially healthy culture.
I'm very optimistic that going forward. Well, you say I'm
too positive, but I know from my vantage you're not nice.
I see so many promising things underway that I think wonderful. Yeah,
we have a lot to look forward to and reasons
(49:11):
to be hopeful.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
I go up your positivity. I love it. The world
needs more of it. The world needs more of it
right now. Trust me, there's so much cynicism in America
right now and distrust of each other, and isn't that causing? Man?
I wish everyone read your book, and I also wish
that your book went everywhere in the education world. You know,
(49:34):
I'm very deeply passionate about education, and I see so
much potential when I was reading your book for teachers
to really instill these messages in children who. Of course,
loneliness is big, but as you note, you know, there's
a lot more to life than just not feeling lonely,
and especially in childhood feeling and also there's more than
(49:57):
belonging right, and so in childhood really being able to
have what would it mean to have like social gyms?
You know, you know, you have like regular gyms, but
like physical fitness gyms, but if you had like social
fitness challenges. I don't know. Is that corny that's in
the book?
Speaker 1 (50:14):
That's there? I think, my god, which chapter is it?
I literally talk about social fitness. It's happening, there's there,
there are companies creating them as we speak. Yeah. Absolutely,
But your point on schools, it's it's great. And there
are wonderful nonprofits like Only seven Seconds. I serve on
their scientific advisory board who that has a curriculum for
(50:37):
schools to help teach kids and teenagers to connect more
meaningfully beyond differences is another nonprofit that's that's working in
the space and has fantastic curriculum. So that's happening, making
caring common at the Harvard School of Education also has
phenomenal resources around teaching these skills and youth. So there there,
(51:02):
These are happening, and we just need to spread it
and proliferate it that much more so that it's really
embedded in our DNA.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
Yes, I love that. I love that. You know you're
talking about we need to spread these inspiring examples, And
I couldn't agree with that more. I mean, I just
feel like the news is constantly hitting us with kind
of the worst of humanity, and it is painting a
bleak picture right the even the Surgeon General, you know,
who I admire very much, and I have spoken to
(51:29):
him recently actually about about about transcend We had a
conversation about what is transcendence? Yes, what does he ask me?
What is transcendence? You know, how can we have So
we talked about how we can have more of that
and but but you know, he folks, you know loneliness,
you know, and and and and and all the stats
showing a bleak picture. So we need we need more
(51:50):
casolic Kilms in this world who show, uh, just give
give us hope, give us home, Come on, give us.
It's tough out here as being human.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
It is so tough being human, it really is.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
You know.
Speaker 1 (52:07):
Even the Surgeon General though last fall, he for the
first time that I'd seen he said, just like physical
and mental health, our social health is really important. So
that was the first time I'd seen him use that term.
And it is spreading right. More and more people are
recognizing that health is not just physical and mental, it's
also social. And the more that we recognize that and
(52:27):
invest in culture where social health is in our DNA,
the better off we will all be.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
I love it. Well, I think we should end on
that really great note. Well, I adore you, and I
and I really am rooting for you. I'm sincerely rooting
for you because I think that this is so important.
And yeah, I wish you all the luck with the
rest of your book tour. How I hope you can
find the asfl introvert who has done book tours. Maybe
(52:59):
I'll give you all wine I'll give you some tips
because it can get rough. It can get you know
you're doing, like podcasts after podcast or a podcast, you
know you really need to make sure you take care
of yourself. Is what I'm saying. Make sure you take
care of yourself.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
Thank you, I appreciate it. I'm just grateful to be
having conversations about this, and I really appreciate you having
me on This is a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
It's a pleasure for me too.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com