January 16, 2025 • 17 mins
Hello, Puzzlers! Puzzling with us today: former CIA operatives and hosts of the "Mission Implausible" podcast, John Sipher and Jerry O'Shea!
Join host A.J. Jacobs and his guests as they puzzle–and laugh–their way through new spins on old favorites, like anagrams and palindromes, as well as quirky originals such as “Ask Chat GPT” and audio rebuses.
Subscribe to The Puzzler podcast wherever you get your podcasts!
"The Puzzler with A.J. Jacobs" is distributed by iHeartPodcasts and is a co-production with Neuhaus Ideas.
Our executive producers are Neely Lohmann and Adam Neuhaus of Neuhaus Ideas, and Lindsay Hoffman of iHeart Podcasts.
The show is produced by Jody Avirgan and Brittani Brown of Roulette Productions.
Our Chief Puzzle Officer is Greg Pliska. Our associate producer is Andrea Schoenberg.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello Puzzlers, Welcome to the Puzzler podcast. The Double Agent
in Your Puzzle's Jean lecare novel. I am your host,
A J. Jacobs, and here's a riddle for you. Name
two different American institutions that go by the same three letters,
the same three initials, just like how the World Wildlife
(00:21):
Foundation and the World Wrestling Foundation both used to be
WWF before the wrestling changed because the World Wildlife Federation
gave it a SmackDown, a legal SmackDown or BLM, which
is up the Bureau of Land Management. And also Black
Lives Matter, So these are like that. The answer after
(00:42):
the break, Welcome back to the Puzzler. Before the break,
we asked you about two American institutions that go by
the same three initials. One is cloak and dagger, the
other is aprons and chef's nice. And the answer is CIA.
(01:03):
That would be the CIA of the Central Intelligence Agency
and the CIA of the Culinary Institute of America, both
doing important jobs today. We have two guests who were
longtime operatives at the first of those, the CIA, the
Central Intelligence Agency. Maybe they also are good chefs. I
(01:25):
don't know, but I know that they were operatives longtime
operatives at the CIA, and they use their insider perspective
for their wonderful podcast, Mission Implausible. Welcome John Cipher and
Jerry O'shay.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Thank you nice to be here.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Are you?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Are you chefs at all? Are you? Do you have
any talent in that as well?
Speaker 4 (01:49):
No, but I've been to the Culinary Institute, the one
in California. I used to live in Marin County and
we have to visit.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
And I have a colleague who was arted out in
the Central Intelligence Agency and she quit and she went
to the other CIA.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Oh so did she go to the first one thinking
she was going to chef school? And like, wait a second,
I'm at the wrong place.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
I think she just liked those three letters.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Yeah, well, we not only love your podcast here at
the Puzzler, but the CIA and puzzle spying and puzzles
have a lot of overlap. So we thought you would
be great guests. But before we get to that, we
thought that we would give you a quick puzzle. And
(02:36):
I know that you were not in the deciphering department.
That was not your specialty. You were more what was
your specialty at the CIA?
Speaker 4 (02:44):
We were in what eventually became on the clandestine service.
So the CIA has a big analytic cadre, a big
science and technology cadre, and then we were essentially the
spy handlers. We lived overseas, usually undercover, and our job
was to recruit spies to give up information for our policymakers.
So we're the human the human espionage side of the
(03:05):
of the country's intelligence services.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Interesting, but I guess figuring out how to recruit spies
is a puzzle, so that counts very true, all right.
So this is a puzzle where appropriately enough, the letters C,
I A are hidden inside, and I'm going to give
you a clue, and the answer is always going to
be a word where the letter CIA are inside in
(03:29):
that order. So if the clue were something like American
spies in the Cold War were obsessed with threats from
communism and this related system which some saw sort of
communism light, that answer would be socialism, because the CIA
is right in the middle of socialism. So are you ready?
Speaker 4 (03:53):
I guess as ready as we'll ever be.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah, we're born ready?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
All right, I like it. We got we got one
optimistic one more realistic. Spies sometimes need to make documents disappear,
so they might want to get advice from these folks
who are very good at making things vanish in front
of an auditions magician. There it is, look at that, John,
(04:18):
No problem. What about if if spies I'm guessing sometimes
need to set up a fake business as a cover,
so they might rent office space from this type of
real estate agent, not residential, the other kind commercial and
l there at the end. What about, and maybe this
(04:41):
happened to you, if two CIA agents fall in love
and decide to get married, they will need a lot
of security at the wedding, along with this person who
will actually do the marrying.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Jerry helped me out.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
No, it's not a rare buyer, a priest.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
It is not a rabbi, priest, the minister. It's the
big general word for that. It's someone who is the yes, efficient,
you got it? C I A is right? There s
c I A n T. How about if spies need
spies I imagine need a hearty breakfast to do their
spying and analyzing, so they might have this Kellogg's cereal
(05:29):
to give them energy. It's supposedly healthy, but probably not.
Oh is that a No?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
No, it's not.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
It's got the I think the phrase they used to say,
pension inch. If you can pinch an inch, you need this. Uh,
it's a it's got the letter K at the end, so.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
It is spik shall.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Exactly.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
We are bumbling, Jerry.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
No, no, you got it. Clues are important, as you know.
I'm sure that's part of being a spy. All right, Well,
only a couple more and then you've you've made it through.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
It's often good for spies to know several languages, so
some of them might know this Italian word for goodbye chow.
That was fast exactly, which is a weird word. C
I A oh Cia. Oh all right, two more. I'm
guessing the CIA involves a lot of bureaucracy, and bureaucracy
(06:39):
generally moves at this very slow glacial pace glacial ci
A l exactly. Uh, we led through that, we understand,
I would imagine.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Now, a couple of years ago, there is a very
interesting podcast about how the CIA might have been behind
the heavy metal power ballad Wind of Change. Did you
ever listen to that podcast?
Speaker 4 (07:06):
I was in that podcast.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
No way, that's fantastic, So I have actually not finished it,
So I don't know whether the CIA was behind what
did you were you involved in that operation?
Speaker 4 (07:19):
I mean one of the last couple episodes, So yeah,
maybe you haven't gotten to me yet.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
And were you involved in that operation or just doesn't
that No.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Patrick gred and Keith who's the writer and the New
Yorker guy who just reached out and I didn't even
know what was about and I met him where they
were doing the podcast, and so yeah, I don't think
I was very helpful at all.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Well, you made the podcast, so you did something. Well, yeah,
it was a hilarious premise because there was a rumor
that the Scorpions hit Wind of Change was written by
the CIA to try to have the communist countries throw
off the shackles of communism. Anyway, that song, every other
(08:00):
song is played by this type of.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
Person a DJA radio even.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Broader, someone who makes this type of entertainment songs musicians,
and there it is musician and you got it. You
got it. So well we're done. Well, congratulations and by
the way, thanks to associate puzzler Andrea Schoenberg for helping
(08:31):
me write that puzzle. Associates, I know, so crazy. Before
we let you go, I wanted to just talk to
you about the overlap between spying and puzzles. Now there
(08:54):
is that direct correlation the encrypting of messages and decoding
secret messages, which you say you didn't have much experience.
Did you have any experience with that? Would you get
secret messages?
Speaker 4 (09:06):
We certainly lived my encryption. So the way that when
we work overseas recruiting spies, the way you communicate back
with Washington or with other places to run spies, or
you're using encryption, you're using secret codes, and sometimes with
the spies you're meeting, you might have, you know, plans
for next meetings that are encoded or hidden or there's
(09:28):
a variety of ways that we use that type of stuff.
But we're not the ones that come up with the
ciphers and codes. That's the NSA in the United States.
It does that method.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Interesting Now you may not be able to tell me
any of this, but are you the ones who who
have to do the decoding or do you just type
it into a computer and it automatically codes it.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Jerald Know, when we go through our training at the
farm too, we go through we do all the old
way of doing it, one time pads or you do
false subtraction to try to do codes, and they teach
you how to do things the old way in case
you ever get stuck or taken prisoner or something like that.
But nowadays, for the most part, everything is in the
(10:10):
computer system. Sometimes in more sensitive places, we will encrypt
onto our sort of computer and then send it into
the system for the communicators to send back to Washington
so that they can't see what we've written. It comes
to them in a code. It's then double encrypted.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Oh I see. Interesting. Well, in addition to the encrypting
and decrypting you talked about, your job was trying to
create relationships and recruit people for those who are budding operatives.
What are some of the ways that we can do that?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Do you find like something that you both like? Like
you both like observing the TV show?
Speaker 4 (10:52):
Interesting thing I think that made us enjoy this career
is that you have to like people, and you have
to like the culture and the place they live and so.
And what's interesting is, of course every person is different.
So even in our training when they talk about how
you develop a relationship with someone, how you develop trust
with them, how you look at them to see if
(11:13):
they might have motivation to work with you, because I mean,
spying is illegal in every country, and these people are
committing crimes in their own country, and so it has
to be in their interest to do it, and so
you have to develop a relationship where you can determine
if that person is willing to do it and capable
of keeping themselves safe. And so it is essentially developing relationships.
(11:35):
But then reading people, and it's it's very it's fun,
and it is a puzzle because every single one is
different and you don't want to get it wrong because
you don't want to put people in a dangerous situation
unless they know exactly what they're doing and why.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Yeah, John's e safically right. So the biggest puzzles are
sort of people and most difficult things to to decode
or encode is sort of when you're dealing with someone,
sort of what do they really think? So in diplomacy,
people are paid to lie, right.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
You know, the whole point is to you know, is
to tell them to go to hell and hand them
look forward to the trip, right, you know, sort of
saying things And occasionally you sit down and you talk
to somebody and it's it's really difficult to sort of explain.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Which is why we hesitated there. But it's like, this
guy doesn't believe what he says when you know, back
to the Soviet Union, when he's you know, going on
about the triumph of the working class and the you know,
the proletariat team is like, and he knows, he's full
full of who we and I know and he knows
I know. And the next thing, you know, you're you're
(12:45):
you're looking for a you're looking for a truthful relationship.
And the funny thing about spying and coding and maybe
at the very core of it is it is all
about the truth and shedding and getting rid of those
codes and the things that that are hidden. And when
you do have when you do recruit someone and they say,
(13:07):
I want to do this because I have to tell
the truth, right, I want I need to tell that
I love my country. You need to know about my government.
We're bad guys, you know, And well, I don't believe
what I'm doing. And that's really liberating. And that's sort
of when you get to the final you know, center core,
when you've peeled off all the all the puzzle pieces
(13:31):
and all the Matushka dolls disappear and you've just got
that last nub and for me and I know for
John two, when you recruit someone, you genuinely are close
and you know, sort of it's a real personal, genuine relationship,
intimate in a lot of ways, but without the romance, right,
I mean you you actually get to sit there and
(13:52):
you talk about things that you really believe and can
get you killed if you know, for them in any case,
get you killed in you're the only one they can
tell the truth to.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Right, all right? So final final question is your wonderful
podcast is a lot about how conspiracies are flourishing nowadays.
And part of your job as an operative was to
maybe create conspiracies or to bunk conspiracies. But why are
(14:22):
we in such a golden age? And I use that
in quotes. Why are we in such a golden age
for conspiracies right now? What's going on?
Speaker 4 (14:30):
I think the world for many people seems like it's
going so fast. You can call it globalism or what
it is. And you know, Americans often have this. You know,
you've done these things where you went back into colonial
America or you went back where the Bible was, and
I think there's this vision of Americans have that we
all live live in small villages, and we can you know,
we can comprehend things, but our actual life is complicated, complex.
(14:56):
There's stuff that happens to us every day that we
don't truly understand, and so I think conspiracies come around
trying to put some sort of order and pattern and
create stories around essentially random events. Our life is probably
realistically far more random than people want to admit, and
so we have to create patterns, create stories, and when
that's taken to extreme, I think it becomes conspiracy theories.
(15:18):
And so, you know, we need explanations to why things
happen to us. Well, we don't think we have control
of things, that there's someone out there who's doing this
to us, or there's these elites that are causing these
troubles or these kind of things, and it just seems like,
you know, that's taken on. I think when people feel
like victims, they feel like they don't control their everyday life,
they need someone to blame, and they create conspiracy theories
(15:40):
around it at.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Least fascinating And I love that because it dovetails perfectly
with puzzles, because puzzles are all about creating order out
of chaos. But life is not always like a puzzle,
So let's keep our conspiratorial thinking to puzzles where it's
safe and we don't have to think they're conspiracies behind
every corner in the real world. Well, thank you, it
(16:02):
was a delight to have you both. We look forward
to listening more of Mission Implausible, which is produced by iHeart,
as is The Puzzler, and anything else we should be
on the lookout for.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
Well, no, we have a company called Spycraft and we're
in the process of making espionage related movies, shows, and
we even have a Broadway play we're working on. So
we're trying to get into the entertainment industry, which is
far more complex and crazy than anything we did at CIA.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Frank it is a bizarre place. Well, thank you again,
John and Jerry. What a thrill. That was fascinating. I
think thank you.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
I really loving pleasure to meet you.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
And please, puzzlers, if you have thirty seconds, go rate
the Puzzler on your favorite podcast platform. It makes a
huge difference in helping people find us. And we will
meet here tomorrow for more puzzling puzzles that will puzzle
you puzzlingly.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Hey, puzzlers, it's your Chief puzzle Officer, Greg Pliska, here
with the extra credit answer from our previous show. We
played something Something with Sam Sanders, who is super smart,
and you can see that all the answers were two words,
both starting with S. And your extra credit clue was
this condiment. Dispenser is often found on a krue stand. Now,
(17:27):
I'm not sure I even know what a cruit stand is.
It's the stand where you put your crew it, which
usually holds salad dressing. Right, So I guess a crew
at stand is what they bring out at a restaurant
with all the little stuff for your salad. And the
thing on there that matters is not the salad spoon,
it is the salt shaker. Well done, all of you
(17:49):
got that one, and we'll see you here tomorrow for
some more puzzle fun
Hello Puzzlers, Welcome to the Puzzler podcast. The Double Agent
in Your Puzzle's Jean lecare novel. I am your host,
A J. Jacobs, and here's a riddle for you. Name
two different American institutions that go by the same three letters,
the same three initials, just like how the World Wildlife
(00:21):
Foundation and the World Wrestling Foundation both used to be
WWF before the wrestling changed because the World Wildlife Federation
gave it a SmackDown, a legal SmackDown or BLM, which
is up the Bureau of Land Management. And also Black
Lives Matter, So these are like that. The answer after
(00:42):
the break, Welcome back to the Puzzler. Before the break,
we asked you about two American institutions that go by
the same three initials. One is cloak and dagger, the
other is aprons and chef's nice. And the answer is CIA.
(01:03):
That would be the CIA of the Central Intelligence Agency
and the CIA of the Culinary Institute of America, both
doing important jobs today. We have two guests who were
longtime operatives at the first of those, the CIA, the
Central Intelligence Agency. Maybe they also are good chefs. I
(01:25):
don't know, but I know that they were operatives longtime
operatives at the CIA, and they use their insider perspective
for their wonderful podcast, Mission Implausible. Welcome John Cipher and
Jerry O'shay.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Thank you nice to be here.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Are you?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Are you chefs at all? Are you? Do you have
any talent in that as well?
Speaker 4 (01:49):
No, but I've been to the Culinary Institute, the one
in California. I used to live in Marin County and
we have to visit.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
And I have a colleague who was arted out in
the Central Intelligence Agency and she quit and she went
to the other CIA.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Oh so did she go to the first one thinking
she was going to chef school? And like, wait a second,
I'm at the wrong place.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
I think she just liked those three letters.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Yeah, well, we not only love your podcast here at
the Puzzler, but the CIA and puzzle spying and puzzles
have a lot of overlap. So we thought you would
be great guests. But before we get to that, we
thought that we would give you a quick puzzle. And
(02:36):
I know that you were not in the deciphering department.
That was not your specialty. You were more what was
your specialty at the CIA?
Speaker 4 (02:44):
We were in what eventually became on the clandestine service.
So the CIA has a big analytic cadre, a big
science and technology cadre, and then we were essentially the
spy handlers. We lived overseas, usually undercover, and our job
was to recruit spies to give up information for our policymakers.
So we're the human the human espionage side of the
(03:05):
of the country's intelligence services.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Interesting, but I guess figuring out how to recruit spies
is a puzzle, so that counts very true, all right.
So this is a puzzle where appropriately enough, the letters C,
I A are hidden inside, and I'm going to give
you a clue, and the answer is always going to
be a word where the letter CIA are inside in
(03:29):
that order. So if the clue were something like American
spies in the Cold War were obsessed with threats from
communism and this related system which some saw sort of
communism light, that answer would be socialism, because the CIA
is right in the middle of socialism. So are you ready?
Speaker 4 (03:53):
I guess as ready as we'll ever be.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah, we're born ready?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
All right, I like it. We got we got one
optimistic one more realistic. Spies sometimes need to make documents disappear,
so they might want to get advice from these folks
who are very good at making things vanish in front
of an auditions magician. There it is, look at that, John,
(04:18):
No problem. What about if if spies I'm guessing sometimes
need to set up a fake business as a cover,
so they might rent office space from this type of
real estate agent, not residential, the other kind commercial and
l there at the end. What about, and maybe this
(04:41):
happened to you, if two CIA agents fall in love
and decide to get married, they will need a lot
of security at the wedding, along with this person who
will actually do the marrying.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Jerry helped me out.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
No, it's not a rare buyer, a priest.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
It is not a rabbi, priest, the minister. It's the
big general word for that. It's someone who is the yes, efficient,
you got it? C I A is right? There s
c I A n T. How about if spies need
spies I imagine need a hearty breakfast to do their
spying and analyzing, so they might have this Kellogg's cereal
(05:29):
to give them energy. It's supposedly healthy, but probably not.
Oh is that a No?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
No, it's not.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
It's got the I think the phrase they used to say,
pension inch. If you can pinch an inch, you need this. Uh,
it's a it's got the letter K at the end, so.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
It is spik shall.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Exactly.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
We are bumbling, Jerry.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
No, no, you got it. Clues are important, as you know.
I'm sure that's part of being a spy. All right, Well,
only a couple more and then you've you've made it through.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
It's often good for spies to know several languages, so
some of them might know this Italian word for goodbye chow.
That was fast exactly, which is a weird word. C
I A oh Cia. Oh all right, two more. I'm
guessing the CIA involves a lot of bureaucracy, and bureaucracy
(06:39):
generally moves at this very slow glacial pace glacial ci
A l exactly. Uh, we led through that, we understand,
I would imagine.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Now, a couple of years ago, there is a very
interesting podcast about how the CIA might have been behind
the heavy metal power ballad Wind of Change. Did you
ever listen to that podcast?
Speaker 4 (07:06):
I was in that podcast.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
No way, that's fantastic, So I have actually not finished it,
So I don't know whether the CIA was behind what
did you were you involved in that operation?
Speaker 4 (07:19):
I mean one of the last couple episodes, So yeah,
maybe you haven't gotten to me yet.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
And were you involved in that operation or just doesn't
that No.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Patrick gred and Keith who's the writer and the New
Yorker guy who just reached out and I didn't even
know what was about and I met him where they
were doing the podcast, and so yeah, I don't think
I was very helpful at all.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Well, you made the podcast, so you did something. Well, yeah,
it was a hilarious premise because there was a rumor
that the Scorpions hit Wind of Change was written by
the CIA to try to have the communist countries throw
off the shackles of communism. Anyway, that song, every other
(08:00):
song is played by this type of.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
Person a DJA radio even.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Broader, someone who makes this type of entertainment songs musicians,
and there it is musician and you got it. You
got it. So well we're done. Well, congratulations and by
the way, thanks to associate puzzler Andrea Schoenberg for helping
(08:31):
me write that puzzle. Associates, I know, so crazy. Before
we let you go, I wanted to just talk to
you about the overlap between spying and puzzles. Now there
(08:54):
is that direct correlation the encrypting of messages and decoding
secret messages, which you say you didn't have much experience.
Did you have any experience with that? Would you get
secret messages?
Speaker 4 (09:06):
We certainly lived my encryption. So the way that when
we work overseas recruiting spies, the way you communicate back
with Washington or with other places to run spies, or
you're using encryption, you're using secret codes, and sometimes with
the spies you're meeting, you might have, you know, plans
for next meetings that are encoded or hidden or there's
(09:28):
a variety of ways that we use that type of stuff.
But we're not the ones that come up with the
ciphers and codes. That's the NSA in the United States.
It does that method.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Interesting Now you may not be able to tell me
any of this, but are you the ones who who
have to do the decoding or do you just type
it into a computer and it automatically codes it.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Jerald Know, when we go through our training at the
farm too, we go through we do all the old
way of doing it, one time pads or you do
false subtraction to try to do codes, and they teach
you how to do things the old way in case
you ever get stuck or taken prisoner or something like that.
But nowadays, for the most part, everything is in the
(10:10):
computer system. Sometimes in more sensitive places, we will encrypt
onto our sort of computer and then send it into
the system for the communicators to send back to Washington
so that they can't see what we've written. It comes
to them in a code. It's then double encrypted.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Oh I see. Interesting. Well, in addition to the encrypting
and decrypting you talked about, your job was trying to
create relationships and recruit people for those who are budding operatives.
What are some of the ways that we can do that?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Do you find like something that you both like? Like
you both like observing the TV show?
Speaker 4 (10:52):
Interesting thing I think that made us enjoy this career
is that you have to like people, and you have
to like the culture and the place they live and so.
And what's interesting is, of course every person is different.
So even in our training when they talk about how
you develop a relationship with someone, how you develop trust
with them, how you look at them to see if
(11:13):
they might have motivation to work with you, because I mean,
spying is illegal in every country, and these people are
committing crimes in their own country, and so it has
to be in their interest to do it, and so
you have to develop a relationship where you can determine
if that person is willing to do it and capable
of keeping themselves safe. And so it is essentially developing relationships.
(11:35):
But then reading people, and it's it's very it's fun,
and it is a puzzle because every single one is
different and you don't want to get it wrong because
you don't want to put people in a dangerous situation
unless they know exactly what they're doing and why.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Yeah, John's e safically right. So the biggest puzzles are
sort of people and most difficult things to to decode
or encode is sort of when you're dealing with someone,
sort of what do they really think? So in diplomacy,
people are paid to lie, right.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
You know, the whole point is to you know, is
to tell them to go to hell and hand them
look forward to the trip, right, you know, sort of
saying things And occasionally you sit down and you talk
to somebody and it's it's really difficult to sort of explain.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Which is why we hesitated there. But it's like, this
guy doesn't believe what he says when you know, back
to the Soviet Union, when he's you know, going on
about the triumph of the working class and the you know,
the proletariat team is like, and he knows, he's full
full of who we and I know and he knows
I know. And the next thing, you know, you're you're
(12:45):
you're looking for a you're looking for a truthful relationship.
And the funny thing about spying and coding and maybe
at the very core of it is it is all
about the truth and shedding and getting rid of those
codes and the things that that are hidden. And when
you do have when you do recruit someone and they say,
(13:07):
I want to do this because I have to tell
the truth, right, I want I need to tell that
I love my country. You need to know about my government.
We're bad guys, you know, And well, I don't believe
what I'm doing. And that's really liberating. And that's sort
of when you get to the final you know, center core,
when you've peeled off all the all the puzzle pieces
(13:31):
and all the Matushka dolls disappear and you've just got
that last nub and for me and I know for
John two, when you recruit someone, you genuinely are close
and you know, sort of it's a real personal, genuine relationship,
intimate in a lot of ways, but without the romance, right,
I mean you you actually get to sit there and
(13:52):
you talk about things that you really believe and can
get you killed if you know, for them in any case,
get you killed in you're the only one they can
tell the truth to.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Right, all right? So final final question is your wonderful
podcast is a lot about how conspiracies are flourishing nowadays.
And part of your job as an operative was to
maybe create conspiracies or to bunk conspiracies. But why are
(14:22):
we in such a golden age? And I use that
in quotes. Why are we in such a golden age
for conspiracies right now? What's going on?
Speaker 4 (14:30):
I think the world for many people seems like it's
going so fast. You can call it globalism or what
it is. And you know, Americans often have this. You know,
you've done these things where you went back into colonial
America or you went back where the Bible was, and
I think there's this vision of Americans have that we
all live live in small villages, and we can you know,
we can comprehend things, but our actual life is complicated, complex.
(14:56):
There's stuff that happens to us every day that we
don't truly understand, and so I think conspiracies come around
trying to put some sort of order and pattern and
create stories around essentially random events. Our life is probably
realistically far more random than people want to admit, and
so we have to create patterns, create stories, and when
that's taken to extreme, I think it becomes conspiracy theories.
(15:18):
And so, you know, we need explanations to why things
happen to us. Well, we don't think we have control
of things, that there's someone out there who's doing this
to us, or there's these elites that are causing these
troubles or these kind of things, and it just seems like,
you know, that's taken on. I think when people feel
like victims, they feel like they don't control their everyday life,
they need someone to blame, and they create conspiracy theories
(15:40):
around it at.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Least fascinating And I love that because it dovetails perfectly
with puzzles, because puzzles are all about creating order out
of chaos. But life is not always like a puzzle,
So let's keep our conspiratorial thinking to puzzles where it's
safe and we don't have to think they're conspiracies behind
every corner in the real world. Well, thank you, it
(16:02):
was a delight to have you both. We look forward
to listening more of Mission Implausible, which is produced by iHeart,
as is The Puzzler, and anything else we should be
on the lookout for.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
Well, no, we have a company called Spycraft and we're
in the process of making espionage related movies, shows, and
we even have a Broadway play we're working on. So
we're trying to get into the entertainment industry, which is
far more complex and crazy than anything we did at CIA.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Frank it is a bizarre place. Well, thank you again,
John and Jerry. What a thrill. That was fascinating. I
think thank you.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
I really loving pleasure to meet you.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
And please, puzzlers, if you have thirty seconds, go rate
the Puzzler on your favorite podcast platform. It makes a
huge difference in helping people find us. And we will
meet here tomorrow for more puzzling puzzles that will puzzle
you puzzlingly.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Hey, puzzlers, it's your Chief puzzle Officer, Greg Pliska, here
with the extra credit answer from our previous show. We
played something Something with Sam Sanders, who is super smart,
and you can see that all the answers were two words,
both starting with S. And your extra credit clue was
this condiment. Dispenser is often found on a krue stand. Now,
(17:27):
I'm not sure I even know what a cruit stand is.
It's the stand where you put your crew it, which
usually holds salad dressing. Right, So I guess a crew
at stand is what they bring out at a restaurant
with all the little stuff for your salad. And the
thing on there that matters is not the salad spoon,
it is the salt shaker. Well done, all of you
(17:49):
got that one, and we'll see you here tomorrow for
some more puzzle fun
Hosts And Creators
Greg Pliska
A.J. Jacobs
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