May 23, 2025 • 20 mins
Hello, Puzzlers! Puzzling with us today: New York Times staff writer and author of The Family Dynamic, Susan Dominus!
Join host A.J. Jacobs and his guests as they puzzle–and laugh–their way through new spins on old favorites, like anagrams and palindromes, as well as quirky originals such as “Ask AI” and audio rebuses.
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"The Puzzler with A.J. Jacobs" is distributed by iHeartPodcasts and is a co-production with Neuhaus Ideas.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello puzzlers. Let's start with a quick puzzle. What is
the Guinness Book of World Records record for the most
children given birth by one mother? So the most prolific
mother record according to Guinness, did she give birth two
(00:23):
forty nine children, fifty nine children or sixty nine children?
Did the most prolific mother ever have forty nine, fifty
nine or sixty nine kids? The answer and more puzzling
goodness after the break, Hello puzzlers, Welcome back to the
(00:48):
Buzzler podcast, the black Light Stamp on your Puzzle Club
Going Wrist. I'm your host, AJ Jacobs. Before the break,
we asked about the Guinness World record for the mother
who gave birth to the most children. Did this mother
give birth the forty nine kids, fifty nine kids or
sixty nine kids? The answer is see sixty nine kids,
(01:12):
which is a crazy statistic. Her name, according to Guinness,
was Missus Vasilier. She was a Russian woman in the
seventeen hundreds, a peasant, as the Guinness calls her, and
she did batch her kids for efficiency. So she had
twenty seven berths, sixteen pairs of twins, seven sets of triplets,
(01:38):
four sets of quadruplets. That's a lot. Two quick comments. First,
she is credited by the Guinness World Records as missus Vasilieva.
They don't even know her name, only her husband's, but
she's the one who did all the work, so that's crazy. Second,
how reliable is this Guinness says they have multiple horses
(02:00):
from the time. I'm a little skeptical, but it's going
to be hard to fact chext It's hard of enough
to fact check current day HATTI fact check seventy hundreds. Regardless,
she did have a lot of kids. And I am
starting today with some sibling trivia because our guest today
just published a phenomenal book called The Family Dynamic, A
(02:23):
Journey into the Mystery of Sibling Success. Welcome Susan Dominus.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Thank you, aj Jacobs.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Thank you for using my full name.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
That's a good name.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I appreciate it. It's actually not my full name, it's
Arnold Stephen Jacobs Junior, but that I am honored to
have you on. You know, I've been a fan and
I could say a friend for many, many years. And
this is a fascinating book. I'm so excited for it
to get out into the world. And it is well
(02:55):
you wrote it so maybe you can tell people the
log line. As they say in Hollywood.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
What I often say is that it's a book about
high achieving families, but it's not a how to guide.
It's much more of an exploration of the rewards and
also the costs of having grown up with that kind
of ambition.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
And it does have news you can use changed my life.
And and by the way, I love that it starts
with the Bronchi sisters because they are fascinating, and it
asks why wasn't it just one Bronti sister? Why are
there multiple brilliant Bronties And you get into it. So
we are going to talk about that and lots more.
(03:34):
But this is the puzzler. So I figured we should
do a puzzle. And this, okay, yeah, this puzzle, I mean,
raising kids is a puzzle. So there you go. That's
an easy segue for the end. But in the meantime,
this puzzle is in honor of your book on families,
the family dynamic. This puzzle is called the Mamas and
(03:55):
the Papas, but it's not about the band. Instead is
about worse words that start with ma or pa. Words
that start with ma or pa. But here's the twist
to make it especially puzzly, The answers are going to
be two word phrases where both words start with either
ma or pa. So one answer might be a phrase
(04:18):
like major malfunction because major starts with ma and malfunction
starts with ma, or the phrase past participle both paya
past pa participle. So I'm going to give you a
clue to one of those phrases. I won't tell you
whether it's a mama or a papa, but I'll start
with an example so that you can see that it's
(04:39):
not scary. So if I gave you a clue, like
many cookie recipes recommend lining the cookie tray with this
non sticky material that would.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Be parchment paper.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Look at that. You didn't even pause. That was just
like right in all.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Right, friend house.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
I mean, you know your apartment paper.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
You know I just stopped recently. It's not good for
the environment.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Oh aren't you nice? Okay, all right, I've got a
few for you ready, and again it could be mama
or papa. The first of these was patented in nineteen
twenty six, and it was called a fountain paint rush.
So it is a type of magic marker. Oh, I
(05:23):
didn't even have to get more. It is a magic marker,
that's right, a genericized trademark. Well done, all right, see
you are see now even if you mess up, you've
like established that you are a Mama Papa expert. Now
this one could be a musical clue, but I will
spare you in the audience. If you've got hair on
(05:45):
your chest and a big thick mustache, you've got to be.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
A macho macho man.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
That is true. It is three mas. It is more ma,
ma ma. But yes, macho man or macho macho man.
Well on, Those are the lyrics I discovered when I
googled it. How about a skill that is no longer
required on driver's license tests in many states, including Alabama, Tennessee,
(06:13):
and Wyoming. Parallel park All right, parallel parking, that is correct.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
That's like the one.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
I'm so proud of my parallel parking one's really yeah,
I'm pretty good.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Well do you use because my kids use all of
these marker? I do it like by by gut. I'm
likeing o yastinct.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
That's the only way to do it.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
I think it's a terrible way because I suck at it. Oh, well,
but you are good. You've got the gut You've got
I do.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
I have to say it has gotten easier since we
have the reversal screen in the front of the car.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
You know that does help, That doesn't I'm still not good.
All right. This is the place where songs such as
When Dubs Cry and Raspberry Beret were recorded.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Oh, I've forgotten the name of that place. I will
never remember the name of that place.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
I like your honesty is, but you know what I'm talking.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I do, but I will not remember the name of it.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
You remember the name of the artist, Prince Frimily known
as Prince afkat right.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
And so it's in Minnesota. Well, all right, let me
let me spill a little bit. Socks with patterns on
them are sometimes called like they have like weird.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Like psy Park.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
There it Issy Park. All I needed a little prompt
than That's what I'm here for, all right, just a
couple more. You can't touch this type of clothing. That's
not sure you can touch it. And mc hammer had
to touch it when he put it on for his
famous video paper Pants. You got the pants part's parachue
(07:51):
pants exactly. Although I learned when researching way too much
about parachute pants. There are real parachute pants are very
slim because they you wear them while parachuting. Oh they're
not because they look like a parachute, but anyway, they
his are also sometimes called parachute all right, last one,
(08:12):
last one? Yeah, you made it. The lead singer of
the Funky Bunch went by this name. He later became
an actor and slightly changed his name.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
What if I look up the lead singer of the
Funky Bunch? Is that cheating?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yes, yes, indeed it is. But you can if you know,
you don't need listen, I'm gonna I'm gonna be your Google.
Because he later starred in movies like Boogie Knights and Ted.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Mark Mark.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yes, you said Mark Marky Mark, I got that?
Speaker 4 (08:49):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
She got it? Look at that. You did it. You
did all the mamas, you did all the papas. So
the book is again, it's the family dynamic, and it's structured.
You tell you dive deep on the stories of is
(09:12):
it six families?
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Yeah, it's six families, and then there's a lot of
other stories whose families are loosely woven throughout.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
I would say, plus the science, plus you got the
science and all that, and it.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Also really delved into the families of the scientists and
some of the dynamics that led them to the work
that you know, why were they what was it in
their family history that made them interested in studying the
kinds of things that they were studying.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
I love that, Yeah, because, yeah, scientists are humans. We
kind of forget that, and.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
They come from families and a lot of the times,
you know, that's those curiosities start early, you know.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Yeah, And one of the early families you talk about
is the Bronte sisters. You didn't embed yourself with them
because they are no longer around, But but I loved
what you said about the sibling support system of the
Bronti sisters. So can you just talk about that a bit.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
You know, the.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Bronte siblings were incredibly close growing up. They were a
little bit isolated. They were you know the Minister's you
know children, which always kind of sets kids apart a
little bit. And they were of course extremely bright, and
they did tons and tons of writing together, like they
created all these incredible worlds and actually like even created
(10:31):
newspapers about the worlds and magazines and they would write
letters to the editor, you know, in the in role
playing kinds of ways, very very elaborate. And then and
Charlotte and her brother Branwell used to write together, and
then Emily and Anne used to write together. They had
these different universes and there was some overlap. But Branwell
kind of fell apart at some point. He was supposed
(10:53):
to be the one who was going to be the
great artist of the family, but he turned out to
be kind of a tortured lay about and in fact,
he'd be.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
A great word by the way, layabout, well.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
And he actually really struggled with addiction to alcohol and
opium and was always trying to borrow money. He became
really like that, instead of becoming the great hope of
the family, was like the great problem of the family.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Would you say he was the Rob Kardashian of Lebronte Fan.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
I think you could say that.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah, I don't. That's mean. I'm sure Rab Kardashian's a
nice guy.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I think Verwell was.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Probably he was quite an egomaniac, but he was genuinely talented.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
But anyway, he sort of fell apart, and it was
really only when he fell apart, you know, the Bronte sisters.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
You know, they were sort of destined to be governesses
or marry well if they got lucky. But once he
kind of fell apart, that's when they really started taking
their own writing seriously. And I think I think if
Charlotte Bronte is like the business manager of the bunch,
she was like rummaging through Emily's things and found some
poetry and was like, you know, this is good, like
if we put it together with my poetry, and I
think Anne's got some stuff, like we could get a
book of poetry out there in the world. And they
(11:58):
published it. I think it sold like one but it
got some nice reviews. And then they went from there,
and I think they were like this consortium. They were
like a right, you know, like a female artist colony
living in the same place at a time when female
novelists were still somewhat like suspect, and so they were
each other's support system.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
That's great, yeah, And you say if there had only
been one of them, they might never have achieved the
success because they were there to support each other.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
And also brainstorm and brainstorm and feed off of each
other's work.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
And yeah, for sure, right, which is a big theme
of the book is that sometimes we over emphasize the
influence that parents have and underplay the influence that siblings
have on our kids and their future.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I think that's true, I really do. I think.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
I mean, obviously, so much psychological literature is about parenting,
and but I think that you know, as you see
it on TV shows like Succession and White Lotus, it's
like the sibling things can be incredibly primal and in
some ways even more private, and I think sometimes they
bring out people's ugliest but also their most loyal sides.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah. Oh, by the way, you said before we started
taping that you did have a puzzle related story or anecdote,
So I figure we got to get to that. So
what is it? What? How did that fit into the book?
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Well, so, puzzles are a way that you know, often
researchers will kind of test young people's especially with children's
motivation to keep trying. And one of the researchers in
the book named Julia Leonard, did research in which she
observed children who were playing with games to see what
(13:38):
would happen when an experimenter intervened in the game. You know,
often parents intervene, but you never really know whether the
parents are intervening because they know their kid really well
and know they're not going to be able to do it.
Like is it the kids sort of eliciting that behavior
or is it just that the parents are like overly
anxious and they can't stand to see the kids struggle.
So they did research with experimenters rather than parents, and
(13:59):
they found that in that instance as well, when experimenters
intervene before letting the kid finish the puzzle, that kid lost.
The was like made less of an effort the next
time that a puzzle was presented to that child, even
if it was like quite a bit later they tried late,
you know, it was a very powerful effect.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
So a point of the story is like, you know,
life is a puzzle.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Kids are going to be figuring stuff out, you know,
at every step of the way, and in general, parents
probably this research or Julia Reynards a lot of Julia
Leonard's research points towards the idea that parents underestimate what
their kids are capable of and they jump into early
and that's a shame, not just because it's a shame
in the moment, but also because it demotivates the kid
going forward.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
And that's why I didn't give you, Paisley Park, I
made you work for it, so.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
But you supported me. You gave me a supportive clue.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
So I like abandoned, but no I would, but yes,
but I didn't intervene.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Well, one thing I love about your book is you
talk about how they're no magic bullet. It does have
great takeaways that I as a parent can use, but
it was also, i have to say, very mentally freeing,
because you talk about we have much less control than
we think. So if you have a flourishing kid, wonderful,
(15:20):
that's great, but don't take all the credit and say, hey,
I'm a great parent. And likewise, if you have a
kid who is struggling, don't beat yourself up that you're
a terrible parent and a terrible person because luck plays
such a big part of it. And I think that
is such a healthy message. It is so good for
(15:41):
people's mental health to acknowledge that.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
What I say in the book is that it's both
a fantasy of parents to think that they can really
control their children's lives, and it is also a responsibility,
Like you have to take it seriously obviously, and like
I think what really matters for kids is how you
interact with them in the moment, on a day to
day basis, because how they feel you know about their
life is an accretion of those small moments. But whether
(16:05):
you can make your child more conscientious, or make your
child a better student, or make your child care more
about getting that goal, I don't even know if those
are like things that parents should be trying to do. Right.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
I love that because yeah, neither of us are saying
I mean, I still want to be the best parent
I can. I think about it all the time, but
I think it's important of humility and realize that you
can only do so much and at some point you
just have to acknowledge that. Well. It is a great book,
The Family Dynamic. I highly recommend it. It's all about
(16:40):
the puzzle of raising a family, so that's one of
the big puzzles, so puzzlers will love it. I do
have an extra credit for the folks at home. Remember
this is a either starts with Mama or Papa. Sometimes
it's called the Big Dance, and UCLA has won the
(17:02):
most of this with eleven championships. And despite the name,
it ends in April, So there you have it. Thank
you Susan, congratulations on the book.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Aj Oh, my pleasure. Are you kidding? This is great?
And listeners, thanks for listening. If you have thirty seconds,
please go rate the Puzzler on your favorite podcast platform
because it helps so much. Because we are ruled by algorithms,
which is sad. You can check out our Instagram feed
(17:36):
which is at Hello Puzzlers, where we post original puzzles, highlights,
other fun stuff and we'll make you here tomorrow for
more puzzling puzzles that will puzzle you puzzlingly.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
Hey, puzzlers, it's Greg Plis. Get your chief puzzle Officer
here with the extra credit answer. From our previous episode,
aj did a puzzle called Britney Spears of Fish, in
which every answer is the name of a famous person
whose surname is a verb, and his clue was this
one this novelist makes comments that cause controversy, That of
(18:16):
course is Nicholas Sparks, as in Sparks Controversy or Sparks Debate.
I also did another puzzle with aj I called Initial Conditions,
based upon a Joel Falliano crossword from the American Crossword
Puzzle Tournament and Basically, each clue is two initials plus
a word, and you're then therefore looking for a thing
(18:37):
in the category of the word that has those two initials.
So your clue was BB King, of course, the great
blues guitarist BB King, But you're looking for a king
whose initials are BB. Lots of possibilities out there. I
imagine that you thought of. The one I was thinking
of is the legendary Irish king Brian Boru bo Ru.
(19:00):
That was a tough one, no question. AJ suggested we
might accept Barry Bonds because he was the King of
baseball or the king of cheating at baseball, depending upon
your point of view. Anyway, we're glad that you're here
playing with us. Catch you here next time for some
more puzzling puzzles that will puzzle you puzzlingly. Thanks for
(19:24):
playing along with the team here at the Puzzler with
Aj Jacobs. I'm Greg Pliska, your chief puzzle officer. Our
executive producers are Neelie Lohman and Adam Neuhouse of New
House Ideas and Lindsay Hoffman of iHeart Podcasts. The show
is produced by Jody Averragan and Brittany Brown. Of Roulette Productions,
with production support from Claire Bidegar Curtis. Our associate producer
(19:46):
is Andrea Schoenberg. The Puzzler with AJ Jacobs is a
co production with New House Ideas and is distributed by
tact Rhapsodies No Rearrange the Letters distributed by I Heart Podcasts.
If you want to know more about puzzling puzzles, please
check out the book The Puzzler by AJ Jacobs, a
(20:08):
history of puzzles that The New York Times called fun
and funny. It features an original puzzle hunt by yours Truly,
and is available wherever you get your books and puzzlers.
For all your puzzling needs, go visit the puzzler dot com.
See you there,
Hello puzzlers. Let's start with a quick puzzle. What is
the Guinness Book of World Records record for the most
children given birth by one mother? So the most prolific
mother record according to Guinness, did she give birth two
(00:23):
forty nine children, fifty nine children or sixty nine children?
Did the most prolific mother ever have forty nine, fifty
nine or sixty nine kids? The answer and more puzzling
goodness after the break, Hello puzzlers, Welcome back to the
(00:48):
Buzzler podcast, the black Light Stamp on your Puzzle Club
Going Wrist. I'm your host, AJ Jacobs. Before the break,
we asked about the Guinness World record for the mother
who gave birth to the most children. Did this mother
give birth the forty nine kids, fifty nine kids or
sixty nine kids? The answer is see sixty nine kids,
(01:12):
which is a crazy statistic. Her name, according to Guinness,
was Missus Vasilier. She was a Russian woman in the
seventeen hundreds, a peasant, as the Guinness calls her, and
she did batch her kids for efficiency. So she had
twenty seven berths, sixteen pairs of twins, seven sets of triplets,
(01:38):
four sets of quadruplets. That's a lot. Two quick comments. First,
she is credited by the Guinness World Records as missus Vasilieva.
They don't even know her name, only her husband's, but
she's the one who did all the work, so that's crazy. Second,
how reliable is this Guinness says they have multiple horses
(02:00):
from the time. I'm a little skeptical, but it's going
to be hard to fact chext It's hard of enough
to fact check current day HATTI fact check seventy hundreds. Regardless,
she did have a lot of kids. And I am
starting today with some sibling trivia because our guest today
just published a phenomenal book called The Family Dynamic, A
(02:23):
Journey into the Mystery of Sibling Success. Welcome Susan Dominus.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Thank you, aj Jacobs.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Thank you for using my full name.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
That's a good name.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I appreciate it. It's actually not my full name, it's
Arnold Stephen Jacobs Junior, but that I am honored to
have you on. You know, I've been a fan and
I could say a friend for many, many years. And
this is a fascinating book. I'm so excited for it
to get out into the world. And it is well
(02:55):
you wrote it so maybe you can tell people the
log line. As they say in Hollywood.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
What I often say is that it's a book about
high achieving families, but it's not a how to guide.
It's much more of an exploration of the rewards and
also the costs of having grown up with that kind
of ambition.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
And it does have news you can use changed my life.
And and by the way, I love that it starts
with the Bronchi sisters because they are fascinating, and it
asks why wasn't it just one Bronti sister? Why are
there multiple brilliant Bronties And you get into it. So
we are going to talk about that and lots more.
(03:34):
But this is the puzzler. So I figured we should
do a puzzle. And this, okay, yeah, this puzzle, I mean,
raising kids is a puzzle. So there you go. That's
an easy segue for the end. But in the meantime,
this puzzle is in honor of your book on families,
the family dynamic. This puzzle is called the Mamas and
(03:55):
the Papas, but it's not about the band. Instead is
about worse words that start with ma or pa. Words
that start with ma or pa. But here's the twist
to make it especially puzzly, The answers are going to
be two word phrases where both words start with either
ma or pa. So one answer might be a phrase
(04:18):
like major malfunction because major starts with ma and malfunction
starts with ma, or the phrase past participle both paya
past pa participle. So I'm going to give you a
clue to one of those phrases. I won't tell you
whether it's a mama or a papa, but I'll start
with an example so that you can see that it's
(04:39):
not scary. So if I gave you a clue, like
many cookie recipes recommend lining the cookie tray with this
non sticky material that would.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Be parchment paper.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Look at that. You didn't even pause. That was just
like right in all.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Right, friend house.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
I mean, you know your apartment paper.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
You know I just stopped recently. It's not good for
the environment.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Oh aren't you nice? Okay, all right, I've got a
few for you ready, and again it could be mama
or papa. The first of these was patented in nineteen
twenty six, and it was called a fountain paint rush.
So it is a type of magic marker. Oh, I
(05:23):
didn't even have to get more. It is a magic marker,
that's right, a genericized trademark. Well done, all right, see
you are see now even if you mess up, you've
like established that you are a Mama Papa expert. Now
this one could be a musical clue, but I will
spare you in the audience. If you've got hair on
(05:45):
your chest and a big thick mustache, you've got to be.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
A macho macho man.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
That is true. It is three mas. It is more ma,
ma ma. But yes, macho man or macho macho man.
Well on, Those are the lyrics I discovered when I
googled it. How about a skill that is no longer
required on driver's license tests in many states, including Alabama, Tennessee,
(06:13):
and Wyoming. Parallel park All right, parallel parking, that is correct.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
That's like the one.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
I'm so proud of my parallel parking one's really yeah,
I'm pretty good.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Well do you use because my kids use all of
these marker? I do it like by by gut. I'm
likeing o yastinct.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
That's the only way to do it.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
I think it's a terrible way because I suck at it. Oh, well,
but you are good. You've got the gut You've got
I do.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
I have to say it has gotten easier since we
have the reversal screen in the front of the car.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
You know that does help, That doesn't I'm still not good.
All right. This is the place where songs such as
When Dubs Cry and Raspberry Beret were recorded.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Oh, I've forgotten the name of that place. I will
never remember the name of that place.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
I like your honesty is, but you know what I'm talking.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I do, but I will not remember the name of it.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
You remember the name of the artist, Prince Frimily known
as Prince afkat right.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
And so it's in Minnesota. Well, all right, let me
let me spill a little bit. Socks with patterns on
them are sometimes called like they have like weird.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Like psy Park.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
There it Issy Park. All I needed a little prompt
than That's what I'm here for, all right, just a
couple more. You can't touch this type of clothing. That's
not sure you can touch it. And mc hammer had
to touch it when he put it on for his
famous video paper Pants. You got the pants part's parachue
(07:51):
pants exactly. Although I learned when researching way too much
about parachute pants. There are real parachute pants are very
slim because they you wear them while parachuting. Oh they're
not because they look like a parachute, but anyway, they
his are also sometimes called parachute all right, last one,
(08:12):
last one? Yeah, you made it. The lead singer of
the Funky Bunch went by this name. He later became
an actor and slightly changed his name.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
What if I look up the lead singer of the
Funky Bunch? Is that cheating?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yes, yes, indeed it is. But you can if you know,
you don't need listen, I'm gonna I'm gonna be your Google.
Because he later starred in movies like Boogie Knights and Ted.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Mark Mark.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yes, you said Mark Marky Mark, I got that?
Speaker 4 (08:49):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
She got it? Look at that. You did it. You
did all the mamas, you did all the papas. So
the book is again, it's the family dynamic, and it's structured.
You tell you dive deep on the stories of is
(09:12):
it six families?
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Yeah, it's six families, and then there's a lot of
other stories whose families are loosely woven throughout.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
I would say, plus the science, plus you got the
science and all that, and it.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Also really delved into the families of the scientists and
some of the dynamics that led them to the work
that you know, why were they what was it in
their family history that made them interested in studying the
kinds of things that they were studying.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
I love that, Yeah, because, yeah, scientists are humans. We
kind of forget that, and.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
They come from families and a lot of the times,
you know, that's those curiosities start early, you know.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Yeah, And one of the early families you talk about
is the Bronte sisters. You didn't embed yourself with them
because they are no longer around, But but I loved
what you said about the sibling support system of the
Bronti sisters. So can you just talk about that a bit.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
You know, the.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Bronte siblings were incredibly close growing up. They were a
little bit isolated. They were you know the Minister's you
know children, which always kind of sets kids apart a
little bit. And they were of course extremely bright, and
they did tons and tons of writing together, like they
created all these incredible worlds and actually like even created
(10:31):
newspapers about the worlds and magazines and they would write
letters to the editor, you know, in the in role
playing kinds of ways, very very elaborate. And then and
Charlotte and her brother Branwell used to write together, and
then Emily and Anne used to write together. They had
these different universes and there was some overlap. But Branwell
kind of fell apart at some point. He was supposed
(10:53):
to be the one who was going to be the
great artist of the family, but he turned out to
be kind of a tortured lay about and in fact,
he'd be.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
A great word by the way, layabout, well.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
And he actually really struggled with addiction to alcohol and
opium and was always trying to borrow money. He became
really like that, instead of becoming the great hope of
the family, was like the great problem of the family.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Would you say he was the Rob Kardashian of Lebronte Fan.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
I think you could say that.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah, I don't. That's mean. I'm sure Rab Kardashian's a
nice guy.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I think Verwell was.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Probably he was quite an egomaniac, but he was genuinely talented.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
But anyway, he sort of fell apart, and it was
really only when he fell apart, you know, the Bronte sisters.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
You know, they were sort of destined to be governesses
or marry well if they got lucky. But once he
kind of fell apart, that's when they really started taking
their own writing seriously. And I think I think if
Charlotte Bronte is like the business manager of the bunch,
she was like rummaging through Emily's things and found some
poetry and was like, you know, this is good, like
if we put it together with my poetry, and I
think Anne's got some stuff, like we could get a
book of poetry out there in the world. And they
(11:58):
published it. I think it sold like one but it
got some nice reviews. And then they went from there,
and I think they were like this consortium. They were
like a right, you know, like a female artist colony
living in the same place at a time when female
novelists were still somewhat like suspect, and so they were
each other's support system.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
That's great, yeah, And you say if there had only
been one of them, they might never have achieved the
success because they were there to support each other.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
And also brainstorm and brainstorm and feed off of each
other's work.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
And yeah, for sure, right, which is a big theme
of the book is that sometimes we over emphasize the
influence that parents have and underplay the influence that siblings
have on our kids and their future.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I think that's true, I really do. I think.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
I mean, obviously, so much psychological literature is about parenting,
and but I think that you know, as you see
it on TV shows like Succession and White Lotus, it's
like the sibling things can be incredibly primal and in
some ways even more private, and I think sometimes they
bring out people's ugliest but also their most loyal sides.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah. Oh, by the way, you said before we started
taping that you did have a puzzle related story or anecdote,
So I figure we got to get to that. So
what is it? What? How did that fit into the book?
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Well, so, puzzles are a way that you know, often
researchers will kind of test young people's especially with children's
motivation to keep trying. And one of the researchers in
the book named Julia Leonard, did research in which she
observed children who were playing with games to see what
(13:38):
would happen when an experimenter intervened in the game. You know,
often parents intervene, but you never really know whether the
parents are intervening because they know their kid really well
and know they're not going to be able to do it.
Like is it the kids sort of eliciting that behavior
or is it just that the parents are like overly
anxious and they can't stand to see the kids struggle.
So they did research with experimenters rather than parents, and
(13:59):
they found that in that instance as well, when experimenters
intervene before letting the kid finish the puzzle, that kid lost.
The was like made less of an effort the next
time that a puzzle was presented to that child, even
if it was like quite a bit later they tried late,
you know, it was a very powerful effect.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
So a point of the story is like, you know,
life is a puzzle.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Kids are going to be figuring stuff out, you know,
at every step of the way, and in general, parents
probably this research or Julia Reynards a lot of Julia
Leonard's research points towards the idea that parents underestimate what
their kids are capable of and they jump into early
and that's a shame, not just because it's a shame
in the moment, but also because it demotivates the kid
going forward.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
And that's why I didn't give you, Paisley Park, I
made you work for it, so.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
But you supported me. You gave me a supportive clue.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
So I like abandoned, but no I would, but yes,
but I didn't intervene.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Well, one thing I love about your book is you
talk about how they're no magic bullet. It does have
great takeaways that I as a parent can use, but
it was also, i have to say, very mentally freeing,
because you talk about we have much less control than
we think. So if you have a flourishing kid, wonderful,
(15:20):
that's great, but don't take all the credit and say, hey,
I'm a great parent. And likewise, if you have a
kid who is struggling, don't beat yourself up that you're
a terrible parent and a terrible person because luck plays
such a big part of it. And I think that
is such a healthy message. It is so good for
(15:41):
people's mental health to acknowledge that.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
What I say in the book is that it's both
a fantasy of parents to think that they can really
control their children's lives, and it is also a responsibility,
Like you have to take it seriously obviously, and like
I think what really matters for kids is how you
interact with them in the moment, on a day to
day basis, because how they feel you know about their
life is an accretion of those small moments. But whether
(16:05):
you can make your child more conscientious, or make your
child a better student, or make your child care more
about getting that goal, I don't even know if those
are like things that parents should be trying to do. Right.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
I love that because yeah, neither of us are saying
I mean, I still want to be the best parent
I can. I think about it all the time, but
I think it's important of humility and realize that you
can only do so much and at some point you
just have to acknowledge that. Well. It is a great book,
The Family Dynamic. I highly recommend it. It's all about
(16:40):
the puzzle of raising a family, so that's one of
the big puzzles, so puzzlers will love it. I do
have an extra credit for the folks at home. Remember
this is a either starts with Mama or Papa. Sometimes
it's called the Big Dance, and UCLA has won the
(17:02):
most of this with eleven championships. And despite the name,
it ends in April, So there you have it. Thank
you Susan, congratulations on the book.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Aj Oh, my pleasure. Are you kidding? This is great?
And listeners, thanks for listening. If you have thirty seconds,
please go rate the Puzzler on your favorite podcast platform
because it helps so much. Because we are ruled by algorithms,
which is sad. You can check out our Instagram feed
(17:36):
which is at Hello Puzzlers, where we post original puzzles, highlights,
other fun stuff and we'll make you here tomorrow for
more puzzling puzzles that will puzzle you puzzlingly.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
Hey, puzzlers, it's Greg Plis. Get your chief puzzle Officer
here with the extra credit answer. From our previous episode,
aj did a puzzle called Britney Spears of Fish, in
which every answer is the name of a famous person
whose surname is a verb, and his clue was this
one this novelist makes comments that cause controversy, That of
(18:16):
course is Nicholas Sparks, as in Sparks Controversy or Sparks Debate.
I also did another puzzle with aj I called Initial Conditions,
based upon a Joel Falliano crossword from the American Crossword
Puzzle Tournament and Basically, each clue is two initials plus
a word, and you're then therefore looking for a thing
(18:37):
in the category of the word that has those two initials.
So your clue was BB King, of course, the great
blues guitarist BB King, But you're looking for a king
whose initials are BB. Lots of possibilities out there. I
imagine that you thought of. The one I was thinking
of is the legendary Irish king Brian Boru bo Ru.
(19:00):
That was a tough one, no question. AJ suggested we
might accept Barry Bonds because he was the King of
baseball or the king of cheating at baseball, depending upon
your point of view. Anyway, we're glad that you're here
playing with us. Catch you here next time for some
more puzzling puzzles that will puzzle you puzzlingly. Thanks for
(19:24):
playing along with the team here at the Puzzler with
Aj Jacobs. I'm Greg Pliska, your chief puzzle officer. Our
executive producers are Neelie Lohman and Adam Neuhouse of New
House Ideas and Lindsay Hoffman of iHeart Podcasts. The show
is produced by Jody Averragan and Brittany Brown. Of Roulette Productions,
with production support from Claire Bidegar Curtis. Our associate producer
(19:46):
is Andrea Schoenberg. The Puzzler with AJ Jacobs is a
co production with New House Ideas and is distributed by
tact Rhapsodies No Rearrange the Letters distributed by I Heart Podcasts.
If you want to know more about puzzling puzzles, please
check out the book The Puzzler by AJ Jacobs, a
(20:08):
history of puzzles that The New York Times called fun
and funny. It features an original puzzle hunt by yours Truly,
and is available wherever you get your books and puzzlers.
For all your puzzling needs, go visit the puzzler dot com.
See you there,
Hosts And Creators
Greg Pliska
A.J. Jacobs
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