October 1, 2025 • 28 mins
Today's special guest is Stacey Abrams, an American lawyer and voting rights activist, who served in the Georgia House of Representatives from 2007 to 2017. Part 2 of 2.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Still broadcasting from the Civic Cipher Studios. Welcome back to
the QR Code. I am your host, Ramsey's job.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
He is Ramsay's job.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
I am q Warden, and we are in the middle
of a fantastic conversation with the one and only Stacey
Abrams discussing more or less the state of the world,
but actually getting some marching orders, uh and some strategy
ahead of the midterms. So without further ado, let's get
back into the conversation with Stacy Abrams. I want to
I want to circle back real quick, just because I
(00:29):
think it's important to share. You know, we're talking about,
you know, Charlie Kirk and his assassination making the world
less safe for black women, and I recognize that in
the immediate aftermath, there were a lot of threats called
into HBCUs and a lot of people have made a
(00:50):
big deal out of that because the HBCUs that these
are black folks and Charlie Kirk was killed by a
white man. These are you know, these black people have
nothing to do what's going on in Utah, right, And
a lot of people have made that point, but it
shows kind of the focal point of a lot of
the anger that is deeply embedded on the right. Joy
(01:12):
Reid wrote a piece recently talking about how angry the
right is and she shared it with us, and we
shared it on the show for listeners that want to
go back.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
And check that out.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
And you know that means that, you know, obviously black
people are a vulnerable population under this regime, especially, but
black women are especially vulnerable. Indeed, we covered a story
tracking the job job losses of Black women, and I
know that for black people it's at lower levels than
(01:45):
it was during the pandemic. So this Trump administration has
hit black wealth and income very, very hard, but for
black women in particular, I believe the job loss job
losses amount somewhere between three hundred and three hundred and
fifty thousand dollars or one hundred and fifty thousand jobs
lost since Trump's inauguration. And so the reality of the
(02:09):
world like on paper in terms of data, has made
the world less safe but even more so, And again
I wanted to make sure I share this story. There's
some instructors I know that work at a major university
that provide a lot of data for this show, and
some of these instructors have been on that list since
(02:33):
that there's like a you know what I'm talking about, right,
So there's that list on Turning Point USA, which is
Charlie Kirk's foundation or whatever, and he kind of delineates
certain instructors or certain categories of instructors and then names
them so that people can watch out for their radical
(02:55):
left teachings. But the truth is it puts a target
on their back. Math of his assassination, the institutions of
higher learning are being attacked, not just the classrooms. You know,
you mentioned the Department of Education being dismantled, but you know,
higher learning and the actual individual professors too. With the
job losses for black women, the capacity diminished for Black
(03:19):
women to teach and share their own stories with a
population that wants to receive it and then echo those
sentiments out in the broader nation, national conversations, etc. Again,
it's just kind of an interesting moment to live through.
But on this show, at least we affirm that black
(03:39):
women are as close to God as we can be
on this planet, and so our lives are dedicated to
making sure that black women's stories are centered as often
as we can. And so I wanted to share that
if you have a response, you can of course offer that,
But I got plenty more for you here.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Well, I'll do very quickly. The reason I've focus so
intensely on DEI before I launched the Ten Steps campaign,
which is really to invite anyone in this country, anyone
who believes that democracy should work for all of us.
You were all invited in. But before I launched ten Steps,
I launched the American Pride Rises Network aprnetwork dot org
(04:19):
to defend DEI because while on the left and some
in the center were sort of dismissing it or apologizing
from it for it, the right has always understood that diversity, equity,
and inclusion are foundational values. They're not angry about the letters,
they're mad about the success. They are angry that there
(04:39):
were three hundred thousand black women who held positions of
power and influence in an economy that was not designed
for their success. And so one of the first initiatives
undertaken by this administration was to fire and to terminate
not just those jobs, but the latters to those jobs.
The department hired. The Department of Education not only includes
(05:02):
K through twelve, it also includes protecting access to higher
education and it was because we no longer have a
civil rights division that is operational, that there are grants
for black women in the sciences that no longer exist,
that there are opportunities that are evaporating, and so we've
got to again just keep coming back to the intention
(05:23):
is to demonize our language, so they can dismantle our
infrastructure and they can deny us our opportunities. We have
to defend DEI to defend black women, because if we
defend black women, we're now defending the entire infrastructure and
aperture access of democracy itself. Equity cannot exist if we
(05:44):
do not have democracy, because this is a ethno national
estate that does not see us as valuable. And so
one of the reasons I was so excited to join
your show is that we have to reject the fear
that comes with the narratives they try to feed us
that we are not worthy of defense. We got to
show up and participate and not be afraid of them
(06:06):
saying something about us. I am proud of DEI. I
am absolutely certain that it is a good thing that
I am allowed full participation in this economy and in
my education and in elections. And I want to know
why you don't think that's right. And we've got to
mobilize our coalitions, especially by black women. But we've got
(06:26):
to recognize that we need everybody in this with us,
because black women may be the examples, but we're not
the only recipients. In fact, we're not even the most recipient.
We aren't the highest recipients.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
That's white women.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
We need DEI because if you are disabled, if you
are a veteran, if you are a white woman. White
men were the first DEI recipients in America because in
the Revolutionary War, they were fighting to be able to
have a voice if they didn't own land. That's one
of the reasons DEI existed. Because they decided that their
diversity wasn't being respected, their equity wasn't being acknowledged, and
(06:59):
their inclusion was being denied. And if they could start it,
we can finish it. And that's the work we.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Have to do.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
I love listening to Utah go ahead, go ahead. So
I want to say this. One of the things that
Q says, you know he's listening in right now, but
one of the things that he says, and he reminds
me quite often, and you just did it yourself is
to make sure that we say diversity, equity, and inclusion
when as often as we say DEI right, because the
(07:27):
words themselves, it's harder for people to attack those words
than the acronym. It's the same with CRT and you know,
critical race theory for people that don't know it, I mean,
I guess that's a pretty vulnerable thing. But the idea
of woke, you know, like when you think about it,
the opposite of woke is sleep right. And making that
(07:51):
point to people that have a full frontal assault on
the language helps kind of break down their their strategy,
their pack to trying to dismantle, you know, the language,
as you mentioned, and so I appreciate that that is
just a.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Fantastic way of stating what it is we need to do.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Thank you point on it, though, Yeah, please, we should
use both. We need to use the acronym and the
word because if you remember, people hate Obamacare but love
the ACA people. We have to meet people where they are.
We want to bring them where they need to be,
so we want to use the full phrase. We want
to make sure that they have to understand the values,
but we should not abandon the acronyms. Because we give
(08:38):
them power. Our opponents are not going to stop using it.
They're going to keep weaponizing it. So we've got to
fight on both fronts. And we're capable of it. We're smart,
we are protea and in our ability to navigate spaces
and make them what they need to be, which is
why they come after our language first. Our language gives
life to imagination and intention, and so we can't let
(09:01):
them steal it from us.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
So I want to I want to switch gears because
there's another thing that happened. I kind of alluded to
this a little earlier, but we were in at the
Congressional Black Caucus and there was a booth set up
there and there was a group of black women from
Chicago and that the group was I think their group
(09:25):
was called Flip Chicago Red Okay, all black women from Chicago, and.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
They had their talking points.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
And I'm sure you know full well those people that
are very very loud and very wrong at the same time,
and how frustrating it could be to interact with those
people while you're actively debunking what it is they're saying
on social media and then they just pivot to another
talking point. But the fact is that you know, for
(09:59):
some folks, the stripping away of the language and you know,
misappropriating the language, it has been effective on some black folks.
This this push from the right, for some black folks,
they have you know, wandered over into trump Ism and magatism,
if you will. And you know, these indeed, these same
(10:21):
women were trying to memorialize Charlie Kirk, which is interesting
because of Charlie Kirk's thoughts on you know, how he
would feel if a black woman was doing X, Y
and Z, and how certain black women he mentioned didn't
have the cognitive capacity to function in the in the
(10:45):
roles that they had been duly elected to. And so
for these people, I recognize that on the ground, there's
going to be people that interact with folks who are black,
but also folks on the other side or other races
and also on the other side. How do you deal
with this, How do you deal with the frustration, how
(11:06):
do you deal with the misinformation or the mischaracterization of information,
How do you retain your resolve? Because this, for Q
especially was very disheartening interaction. And you know, in a
world where you can look at the news and see
who your oppressor is. You wouldn't expect to walk up
(11:27):
to a table and see a black woman, you know,
as one of his sort of generals. So some advice
for folks you know from a great warrior.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
How do you? How do you navigate those waters?
Speaker 3 (11:40):
So my parents are retired United Methodist ministers. Their job
was conversion. Their job was to make certain that your
soul was fit for heaven, and that meant navigating all
of the pathologies and mistakes and intentions and actions. That
is important and blessed work. That is not what I do.
(12:03):
I can't convert you. My job is not to convert you.
My job is to convince you through my actions that
the path that I am on is the path you
want to take. But conversion means you've got to dig
so deep into someone else's psyche that you can understand
what has made them who they are and try to
change their mind. And changing a mind is incredibly hard work.
(12:27):
My parents won't know if they were right until Kingdom comes.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
But what I can do instead is focus not on
those who have espoused a belief system not just antithetical
to my own, but antithetical to my fundamental beliefs as
a human, and I can focus on those who no
one talks to it all. We have spent so much
time in debate about the seventy seven million who voted
(12:51):
for Trump versus the seventy five million who voted for Harris.
I want to talk about the ninety million who did
not believe their voices could be heard. The thirty seven
point eight million low income people who think that democracy
isn't worth it, that none of this matters because they've
never seen success. I want to focus on those for
whom there is no conversation. They don't know DEI or diversity,
(13:12):
equity and inclusion because no one's ever taken the time
to engage them on it. We can try to change
the minds of those who are clearly performatively trying to
bait us, or we can focus on their targets who
simply want someone to talk to them. And our work
is best achieved not when we are trying to change
the mind of the oppressor, but when we are trying
(13:34):
to lift up the needs of the oppressed, when we
are trying to activate those who have never been called
into community, Because often if you talk to that thirty
seven million They don't get mail during election time, but
they also don't get door knocks during hard times. People
don't show up and say how can I help. Our
work is not to change the minds of those who
want to flip Chicago red. We need to change the
(13:57):
lives of those who want Chicago to work. That's the
work that we can do. Because democracy works. D Ei
works when it proves that it can deliver. People don't
care about your politics. They care about their lives, and
so our job is not to change someone else's mind,
but to change their outcomes so they believe what we
believe and are willing to fight for what we're willing
(14:19):
to fight for.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
So let's shift gears a bit because we're living in
a state of mass murder. It seems like every other
day there's another mass shooting. And these shootings themselves are
(14:44):
being mischaracterized as leftist, left wing attacks on the right,
or Christianity, or their attacks from the trans community, or
and you know, this government has removed information from websites
(15:05):
that tell the reality of the story, which is that
most mass shootings come from you know, right wing radicals,
and you can see them scrubbing certain information and kind
of interjecting mischaracterizations into the national dialogue.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
That is a very woeful.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Reality to be subjected to when you know, again, we
mentioned how HBCUs came under fire because of a shooting
that took place in Utah from a white man to
a white man. Talk to us a little bit about
this mischaracterization and what how harmful that is and what
(15:55):
people can do, if anything, to push back against that.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Sure. So there's an organization called Onyx Impact. It's run
by asosa Osa, who is one of our nation's leading
experts on black disinformation and misinformation. She worked with me
on my campaigns for governor. She worked at Fair Fight
and has since spun off this extraordinary organization, And what
(16:23):
she trained me to understand when I was running for
office is that you cannot correct disinformation or misinformation by
repeating it because part of its salience is that it
focuses us. It focuses our attention and our actions on
their lies. And when you were spending your time trying
to debunk a lie, you are repeating it and giving
(16:45):
it even more force. And so instead our focus should
be on telling the truth, never repeating the lie, never
engaging the lie, but telling the truth, and so the
truths that we need to lift up one the violence
that's being visited in our country on people. It's being
fomented by the fact that we refuse to address gun violence,
(17:08):
and because we have an authoritarian regime that is normalizing
violence as a way to respond to ideological difference. We
have to talk about that. I don't want to argue
with you about the numbers because you don't intend to
use the numbers in good faith, so I'm not giving
you that. Instead, I'm going to talk about the real
effects of what are happening to communities and to people
(17:29):
around me. But they want to draw us into this
tit for tat debate, which we cannot win because they
control the airwaves right now, but they do not control
our communications with one another. They do not control the
streets completely, and so we need to be telling the
truth to each other and not allowing them to set
the terms of debate. They are scrubbing the data because
(17:51):
they know the data tells a different story. So let's
talk about why they're scrubbing the data, and let's not
talk about what the data says. Let's talk about why
they have to erase the if you have to erase
the truth, then see clearly you're about to lie to me.
So let's make sure we are lifting up the fact
that we are dealing with liars, not necessarily whether it's
two points or seven points, but that you believe that
(18:13):
you have to erase the truth to win the argument.
Let's talk about the violence that's being visited and who
is actually harmed, not disconnecting it from the lived reality,
but refusing to let them set the terms of debate.
We spend so much of our time fighting their fight
instead of setting up our own intention. And that's why
(18:34):
the ten steps are so important to me. I don't
care about what they've done. I need to recognize it
so I understand it. But I'm not trying to convince
you that you don't mean my harm. You do you
intend me harm, and I take you at your word.
My job is to make sure that I make it
as difficult for you as possible, but more importantly, that
I use it as a galvanizing moment to convince those
(18:57):
who never understood how valuable humanity is to me and
to those like me, that I'm going to do what
I can to lift you up and protect you We
win when we stop fighting their fights and we start
fighting our own. That's the way I approach this work,
because I could get pulled into the morass of their hatred,
or I can be focused on the beauty of our victory.
(19:20):
And that's the work that I think we should be
focused on.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Okay, and I know we're short on time here, so
I want to make sure that I mentioned.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Your viral moment. It was.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
It was viral to me and I'm sure a lot
of other folks would agree with that. But were this
moment where we were kind of detailing Trump's push of
the United States into authoritarianism? And you've talked about these
ten steps, but you know, with Project twenty twenty five
more than halfway complete, in your mind, what are our
(19:56):
prospects for inclusive America at some point in our lifetimes,
given the Supreme Court, given all these sorts of things,
do you think that that's still realistic?
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Absolutely? But we have to believe we're entitled to it.
So I was on Jimmy Kimmel, I was in conversation
with Anthony Anderson. I was actually there to promote my novel.
It's called Coded Justice, and it's about a black Supreme
Court clerk. Now she's a private attorney. And this book
is about AI, the intersection of AI, DEI and veterans,
(20:31):
because I wanted to talk about how we need to
understand artificial intelligence, not be terrified of it, but understand it,
about how DEI saves our lives, and about how it
saves the lives of those who were called upon to
protect us, who are disproportionately comprised of communities of color
and vulnerable and possessed communities. That's who gets pulled into
often into the military. So I say that to say this,
(20:56):
I am the granddaughter of a man who was born
twenty five years after the end of slavery. My mother
was the only one of her siblings to finish high school.
My cousins and my siblings and I, we were the
first generation born in our family with full civil rights
in this country. In twenty eighteen, I became the first
black woman to be the nominee for a major party
(21:18):
for governor. That happened in the span of two generations,
three generations. I refuse to believe that authoritarianism will diminish
and destroy the democracy that my family built, that your
family built, that our families died for and thought for.
But it will disappear if we give them too much
(21:40):
credit too soon. And that's why I launched American Pride
Rises Network because if you want to save democracy, defend DEI.
They are not mad about the letters. They're mad about
the mission diversity, equity and inclusion. They are angry that
it was working. That they have to work so hard
in issue so many executive orders is because it was
(22:01):
actually building the pluralistic, multiracial democracy that we deserve. They've
been at it for nine months. We've been building this
country for two hundred and fifty years. They will not
win if we continue to fight for what we deserve.
And that's why the ten Steps is so important to me,
because there are ten steps to authoritarianism and intocracy, and
that's what I talked about with Anthony, But there are
(22:22):
ten steps to freedom and power. And when we have
used those steps, when we have believed that we have
the right to those steps, we not only achieved the
civil rights movement, We not only achieved reconstruction. We built
cathedrals to justice. We can win, but we have to
believe we are entitled to it, and we have to
believe that we are smart enough, strong enough, and resilient
(22:44):
enough that if we do the work, we will have
what we deserve. That's why I'm doing this work because yes,
I believe that we can win. I know we can.
We just have to believe that we are entitled to it.
And that's the work of this moment.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
I appreciate that last question and brief answer. What are
your thoughts on, you know, the future of Democrats ahead
of the midterms and ahead of the next presidential election.
You know, with respect to you know Kamona Justice and
Gavin Newsom, and you know everything going on in New
(23:17):
York and around the country. How do you feel about democrats?
Speaker 3 (23:24):
We when when we prove that democracy can deliver, Democracy
as a construct is meaningless. Democracy has to deliver because
when you've lived your life with democracy as a failure,
because you're an intergenerational poverty, because you live under the
specter of state capture in Southern States, where your humanity
is always under question, democracy has to prove that it
(23:46):
can deliver. Democrats have to prove that we believe not
just in the notion of democracy but in its real, actualized,
lived experience. If we can do that, if we're willing
to take risks and fight back and be strong. We
can win, but I don't really care about who wins
unless the intention is for the people to win. And
(24:08):
Democrats when we are for the people, that is when
we're the most successful, and that is when we can train.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
In the world.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
I appreciate you taking the time today. One of the
things that I knew I was going to get from
you because I've obviously watched you for a long time.
I'm just one of the millions in the sea that
you know, worships at your throne if you will, And
I knew that you would come on and you would
(24:36):
share some positivity. You know, we have conversations with people
that share the reality of our situation.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
You know.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
John Hopebriant comes to mind, you know where He just
kind of tells us, Hey, here's here's where you are.
But I've realized that there needs to be some optimism
and there also needs to be some strategy. And I
think that you've do delivered on both fronts. Not to
say that John doesn't. John, he absolutely does. But John,
(25:04):
that's my guy. But but I knew that you would
deliver that today, and so I, you know, I actually
interact with our listeners.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
I talk to the people. I kind of thank you
for being.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
You know, if I get to the end of my
life and I'm in heaven and I don't see you there,
then I must be in the wrong place. So thank
you Stacey Abams. Before you go, obviously, I'd love for
you to plug your books, your your social media's, your websites,
anything like that. Let's let the people get all the
connective tissue they need to stay in your orbit.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Well, ramsays, thank you first of all for having me.
Thank you to you and Q for the invitation. You
can always find me at Stacy Abrams on all the platforms.
I have a podcast assembly required with Stacy Abrams on
every platform you like. I have a sub stack assembly notes.
I'm trying to meet people wherever they are and then
encourage people to visit APR network dot org to learn
(26:01):
more about how you can defend DEI and the Ten
Steps campaign dot org so that we can defend democracy
because together we can get this work done and we
can win.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
And that is the great Stacy Abrams. Somebody, as as
we mentioned at the top of the show, who is
providing not just you know, stability in these terms, not
just optimism in these times, I mean, but some strategy,
(26:32):
some things that people can do and should be doing
on the ground. I know that you know you were
in the studio listening for most of the conversation. Q.
But what were your reflections? Of course I asked your
questions as well. What were your reflections on the conversation?
Speaker 4 (26:46):
Equity cannot exist if we do not have democracy. Yeah, Like,
she's so calm and sober, minded and prepared and ready
and organized and has a strategy and has a plan.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
It's like.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
I think you and I talked before about if you're
going to get into a fight and your cause is righteous,
you don't have fear.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
That's Stacy Abrams.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Like.
Speaker 4 (27:20):
She's grounded in the righteousness of her cause. So she's
not unsteady, she's not flappable, she's not nervous, she's not afraid.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
She just knows what needs to be done.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
I'm shocked that she's not more nervous, because this seemed
like that amount of calm and confidence would require for
there to be other people who would join in on
this fight.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
But man, we need her.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Man, Yeah, and uh, fortunately it seems like we have her.
So Let's make sure we use the time wisely. Let's
make sure that we use the strategy that she gave us.
Let's make sure that we stay tapped in and we
remain vigilant and resilient. You know, those of us that
(28:08):
consider this government to be hostile toward us, obviously, there
are brilliant minds all the way around. And you know,
some people are still working. Based on the weekend we had,
it seems like a lot of people are still working
and that is a good sign.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Indeed, bet in.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Mind that's going to do it for us Here on
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Speaker 2 (28:36):
While you're there, be.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Sure to hit subscribe and download all of our episodes. Also,
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Ramsey's Jah.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
I am Qward on all social media as well.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Indeed he is, and be sure to join us next
time as we share our news with our voice from
our perspective right here on the QR Code.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Peace
Still broadcasting from the Civic Cipher Studios. Welcome back to
the QR Code. I am your host, Ramsey's job.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
He is Ramsay's job.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
I am q Warden, and we are in the middle
of a fantastic conversation with the one and only Stacey
Abrams discussing more or less the state of the world,
but actually getting some marching orders, uh and some strategy
ahead of the midterms. So without further ado, let's get
back into the conversation with Stacy Abrams. I want to
I want to circle back real quick, just because I
(00:29):
think it's important to share. You know, we're talking about,
you know, Charlie Kirk and his assassination making the world
less safe for black women, and I recognize that in
the immediate aftermath, there were a lot of threats called
into HBCUs and a lot of people have made a
(00:50):
big deal out of that because the HBCUs that these
are black folks and Charlie Kirk was killed by a
white man. These are you know, these black people have
nothing to do what's going on in Utah, right, And
a lot of people have made that point, but it
shows kind of the focal point of a lot of
the anger that is deeply embedded on the right. Joy
(01:12):
Reid wrote a piece recently talking about how angry the
right is and she shared it with us, and we
shared it on the show for listeners that want to
go back.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
And check that out.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
And you know that means that, you know, obviously black
people are a vulnerable population under this regime, especially, but
black women are especially vulnerable. Indeed, we covered a story
tracking the job job losses of Black women, and I
know that for black people it's at lower levels than
(01:45):
it was during the pandemic. So this Trump administration has
hit black wealth and income very, very hard, but for
black women in particular, I believe the job loss job
losses amount somewhere between three hundred and three hundred and
fifty thousand dollars or one hundred and fifty thousand jobs
lost since Trump's inauguration. And so the reality of the
(02:09):
world like on paper in terms of data, has made
the world less safe but even more so, And again
I wanted to make sure I share this story. There's
some instructors I know that work at a major university
that provide a lot of data for this show, and
some of these instructors have been on that list since
(02:33):
that there's like a you know what I'm talking about, right,
So there's that list on Turning Point USA, which is
Charlie Kirk's foundation or whatever, and he kind of delineates
certain instructors or certain categories of instructors and then names
them so that people can watch out for their radical
(02:55):
left teachings. But the truth is it puts a target
on their back. Math of his assassination, the institutions of
higher learning are being attacked, not just the classrooms. You know,
you mentioned the Department of Education being dismantled, but you know,
higher learning and the actual individual professors too. With the
job losses for black women, the capacity diminished for Black
(03:19):
women to teach and share their own stories with a
population that wants to receive it and then echo those
sentiments out in the broader nation, national conversations, etc. Again,
it's just kind of an interesting moment to live through.
But on this show, at least we affirm that black
(03:39):
women are as close to God as we can be
on this planet, and so our lives are dedicated to
making sure that black women's stories are centered as often
as we can. And so I wanted to share that
if you have a response, you can of course offer that,
But I got plenty more for you here.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Well, I'll do very quickly. The reason I've focus so
intensely on DEI before I launched the Ten Steps campaign,
which is really to invite anyone in this country, anyone
who believes that democracy should work for all of us.
You were all invited in. But before I launched ten Steps,
I launched the American Pride Rises Network aprnetwork dot org
(04:19):
to defend DEI because while on the left and some
in the center were sort of dismissing it or apologizing
from it for it, the right has always understood that diversity, equity,
and inclusion are foundational values. They're not angry about the letters,
they're mad about the success. They are angry that there
(04:39):
were three hundred thousand black women who held positions of
power and influence in an economy that was not designed
for their success. And so one of the first initiatives
undertaken by this administration was to fire and to terminate
not just those jobs, but the latters to those jobs.
The department hired. The Department of Education not only includes
(05:02):
K through twelve, it also includes protecting access to higher
education and it was because we no longer have a
civil rights division that is operational, that there are grants
for black women in the sciences that no longer exist,
that there are opportunities that are evaporating, and so we've
got to again just keep coming back to the intention
(05:23):
is to demonize our language, so they can dismantle our
infrastructure and they can deny us our opportunities. We have
to defend DEI to defend black women, because if we
defend black women, we're now defending the entire infrastructure and
aperture access of democracy itself. Equity cannot exist if we
(05:44):
do not have democracy, because this is a ethno national
estate that does not see us as valuable. And so
one of the reasons I was so excited to join
your show is that we have to reject the fear
that comes with the narratives they try to feed us
that we are not worthy of defense. We got to
show up and participate and not be afraid of them
(06:06):
saying something about us. I am proud of DEI. I
am absolutely certain that it is a good thing that
I am allowed full participation in this economy and in
my education and in elections. And I want to know
why you don't think that's right. And we've got to
mobilize our coalitions, especially by black women. But we've got
(06:26):
to recognize that we need everybody in this with us,
because black women may be the examples, but we're not
the only recipients. In fact, we're not even the most recipient.
We aren't the highest recipients.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
That's white women.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
We need DEI because if you are disabled, if you
are a veteran, if you are a white woman. White
men were the first DEI recipients in America because in
the Revolutionary War, they were fighting to be able to
have a voice if they didn't own land. That's one
of the reasons DEI existed. Because they decided that their
diversity wasn't being respected, their equity wasn't being acknowledged, and
(06:59):
their inclusion was being denied. And if they could start it,
we can finish it. And that's the work we.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Have to do.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
I love listening to Utah go ahead, go ahead. So
I want to say this. One of the things that
Q says, you know he's listening in right now, but
one of the things that he says, and he reminds
me quite often, and you just did it yourself is
to make sure that we say diversity, equity, and inclusion
when as often as we say DEI right, because the
(07:27):
words themselves, it's harder for people to attack those words
than the acronym. It's the same with CRT and you know,
critical race theory for people that don't know it, I mean,
I guess that's a pretty vulnerable thing. But the idea
of woke, you know, like when you think about it,
the opposite of woke is sleep right. And making that
(07:51):
point to people that have a full frontal assault on
the language helps kind of break down their their strategy,
their pack to trying to dismantle, you know, the language,
as you mentioned, and so I appreciate that that is
just a.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Fantastic way of stating what it is we need to do.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Thank you point on it, though, Yeah, please, we should
use both. We need to use the acronym and the
word because if you remember, people hate Obamacare but love
the ACA people. We have to meet people where they are.
We want to bring them where they need to be,
so we want to use the full phrase. We want
to make sure that they have to understand the values,
but we should not abandon the acronyms. Because we give
(08:38):
them power. Our opponents are not going to stop using it.
They're going to keep weaponizing it. So we've got to
fight on both fronts. And we're capable of it. We're smart,
we are protea and in our ability to navigate spaces
and make them what they need to be, which is
why they come after our language first. Our language gives
life to imagination and intention, and so we can't let
(09:01):
them steal it from us.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
So I want to I want to switch gears because
there's another thing that happened. I kind of alluded to
this a little earlier, but we were in at the
Congressional Black Caucus and there was a booth set up
there and there was a group of black women from
Chicago and that the group was I think their group
(09:25):
was called Flip Chicago Red Okay, all black women from Chicago, and.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
They had their talking points.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
And I'm sure you know full well those people that
are very very loud and very wrong at the same time,
and how frustrating it could be to interact with those
people while you're actively debunking what it is they're saying
on social media and then they just pivot to another
talking point. But the fact is that you know, for
(09:59):
some folks, the stripping away of the language and you know,
misappropriating the language, it has been effective on some black folks.
This this push from the right, for some black folks,
they have you know, wandered over into trump Ism and magatism,
if you will. And you know, these indeed, these same
(10:21):
women were trying to memorialize Charlie Kirk, which is interesting
because of Charlie Kirk's thoughts on you know, how he
would feel if a black woman was doing X, Y
and Z, and how certain black women he mentioned didn't
have the cognitive capacity to function in the in the
(10:45):
roles that they had been duly elected to. And so
for these people, I recognize that on the ground, there's
going to be people that interact with folks who are black,
but also folks on the other side or other races
and also on the other side. How do you deal
with this, How do you deal with the frustration, how
(11:06):
do you deal with the misinformation or the mischaracterization of information,
How do you retain your resolve? Because this, for Q
especially was very disheartening interaction. And you know, in a
world where you can look at the news and see
who your oppressor is. You wouldn't expect to walk up
(11:27):
to a table and see a black woman, you know,
as one of his sort of generals. So some advice
for folks you know from a great warrior.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
How do you? How do you navigate those waters?
Speaker 3 (11:40):
So my parents are retired United Methodist ministers. Their job
was conversion. Their job was to make certain that your
soul was fit for heaven, and that meant navigating all
of the pathologies and mistakes and intentions and actions. That
is important and blessed work. That is not what I do.
(12:03):
I can't convert you. My job is not to convert you.
My job is to convince you through my actions that
the path that I am on is the path you
want to take. But conversion means you've got to dig
so deep into someone else's psyche that you can understand
what has made them who they are and try to
change their mind. And changing a mind is incredibly hard work.
(12:27):
My parents won't know if they were right until Kingdom comes.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
But what I can do instead is focus not on
those who have espoused a belief system not just antithetical
to my own, but antithetical to my fundamental beliefs as
a human, and I can focus on those who no
one talks to it all. We have spent so much
time in debate about the seventy seven million who voted
(12:51):
for Trump versus the seventy five million who voted for Harris.
I want to talk about the ninety million who did
not believe their voices could be heard. The thirty seven
point eight million low income people who think that democracy
isn't worth it, that none of this matters because they've
never seen success. I want to focus on those for
whom there is no conversation. They don't know DEI or diversity,
(13:12):
equity and inclusion because no one's ever taken the time
to engage them on it. We can try to change
the minds of those who are clearly performatively trying to
bait us, or we can focus on their targets who
simply want someone to talk to them. And our work
is best achieved not when we are trying to change
the mind of the oppressor, but when we are trying
(13:34):
to lift up the needs of the oppressed, when we
are trying to activate those who have never been called
into community, Because often if you talk to that thirty
seven million They don't get mail during election time, but
they also don't get door knocks during hard times. People
don't show up and say how can I help. Our
work is not to change the minds of those who
want to flip Chicago red. We need to change the
(13:57):
lives of those who want Chicago to work. That's the
work that we can do. Because democracy works. D Ei
works when it proves that it can deliver. People don't
care about your politics. They care about their lives, and
so our job is not to change someone else's mind,
but to change their outcomes so they believe what we
believe and are willing to fight for what we're willing
(14:19):
to fight for.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
So let's shift gears a bit because we're living in
a state of mass murder. It seems like every other
day there's another mass shooting. And these shootings themselves are
(14:44):
being mischaracterized as leftist, left wing attacks on the right,
or Christianity, or their attacks from the trans community, or
and you know, this government has removed information from websites
(15:05):
that tell the reality of the story, which is that
most mass shootings come from you know, right wing radicals,
and you can see them scrubbing certain information and kind
of interjecting mischaracterizations into the national dialogue.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
That is a very woeful.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Reality to be subjected to when you know, again, we
mentioned how HBCUs came under fire because of a shooting
that took place in Utah from a white man to
a white man. Talk to us a little bit about
this mischaracterization and what how harmful that is and what
(15:55):
people can do, if anything, to push back against that.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Sure. So there's an organization called Onyx Impact. It's run
by asosa Osa, who is one of our nation's leading
experts on black disinformation and misinformation. She worked with me
on my campaigns for governor. She worked at Fair Fight
and has since spun off this extraordinary organization, And what
(16:23):
she trained me to understand when I was running for
office is that you cannot correct disinformation or misinformation by
repeating it because part of its salience is that it
focuses us. It focuses our attention and our actions on
their lies. And when you were spending your time trying
to debunk a lie, you are repeating it and giving
(16:45):
it even more force. And so instead our focus should
be on telling the truth, never repeating the lie, never
engaging the lie, but telling the truth, and so the
truths that we need to lift up one the violence
that's being visited in our country on people. It's being
fomented by the fact that we refuse to address gun violence,
(17:08):
and because we have an authoritarian regime that is normalizing
violence as a way to respond to ideological difference. We
have to talk about that. I don't want to argue
with you about the numbers because you don't intend to
use the numbers in good faith, so I'm not giving
you that. Instead, I'm going to talk about the real
effects of what are happening to communities and to people
(17:29):
around me. But they want to draw us into this
tit for tat debate, which we cannot win because they
control the airwaves right now, but they do not control
our communications with one another. They do not control the
streets completely, and so we need to be telling the
truth to each other and not allowing them to set
the terms of debate. They are scrubbing the data because
(17:51):
they know the data tells a different story. So let's
talk about why they're scrubbing the data, and let's not
talk about what the data says. Let's talk about why
they have to erase the if you have to erase
the truth, then see clearly you're about to lie to me.
So let's make sure we are lifting up the fact
that we are dealing with liars, not necessarily whether it's
two points or seven points, but that you believe that
(18:13):
you have to erase the truth to win the argument.
Let's talk about the violence that's being visited and who
is actually harmed, not disconnecting it from the lived reality,
but refusing to let them set the terms of debate.
We spend so much of our time fighting their fight
instead of setting up our own intention. And that's why
(18:34):
the ten steps are so important to me. I don't
care about what they've done. I need to recognize it
so I understand it. But I'm not trying to convince
you that you don't mean my harm. You do you
intend me harm, and I take you at your word.
My job is to make sure that I make it
as difficult for you as possible, but more importantly, that
I use it as a galvanizing moment to convince those
(18:57):
who never understood how valuable humanity is to me and
to those like me, that I'm going to do what
I can to lift you up and protect you We
win when we stop fighting their fights and we start
fighting our own. That's the way I approach this work,
because I could get pulled into the morass of their hatred,
or I can be focused on the beauty of our victory.
(19:20):
And that's the work that I think we should be
focused on.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Okay, and I know we're short on time here, so
I want to make sure that I mentioned.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Your viral moment. It was.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
It was viral to me and I'm sure a lot
of other folks would agree with that. But were this
moment where we were kind of detailing Trump's push of
the United States into authoritarianism? And you've talked about these
ten steps, but you know, with Project twenty twenty five
more than halfway complete, in your mind, what are our
(19:56):
prospects for inclusive America at some point in our lifetimes,
given the Supreme Court, given all these sorts of things,
do you think that that's still realistic?
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Absolutely? But we have to believe we're entitled to it.
So I was on Jimmy Kimmel, I was in conversation
with Anthony Anderson. I was actually there to promote my novel.
It's called Coded Justice, and it's about a black Supreme
Court clerk. Now she's a private attorney. And this book
is about AI, the intersection of AI, DEI and veterans,
(20:31):
because I wanted to talk about how we need to
understand artificial intelligence, not be terrified of it, but understand it,
about how DEI saves our lives, and about how it
saves the lives of those who were called upon to
protect us, who are disproportionately comprised of communities of color
and vulnerable and possessed communities. That's who gets pulled into
often into the military. So I say that to say this,
(20:56):
I am the granddaughter of a man who was born
twenty five years after the end of slavery. My mother
was the only one of her siblings to finish high school.
My cousins and my siblings and I, we were the
first generation born in our family with full civil rights
in this country. In twenty eighteen, I became the first
black woman to be the nominee for a major party
(21:18):
for governor. That happened in the span of two generations,
three generations. I refuse to believe that authoritarianism will diminish
and destroy the democracy that my family built, that your
family built, that our families died for and thought for.
But it will disappear if we give them too much
(21:40):
credit too soon. And that's why I launched American Pride
Rises Network because if you want to save democracy, defend DEI.
They are not mad about the letters. They're mad about
the mission diversity, equity and inclusion. They are angry that
it was working. That they have to work so hard
in issue so many executive orders is because it was
(22:01):
actually building the pluralistic, multiracial democracy that we deserve. They've
been at it for nine months. We've been building this
country for two hundred and fifty years. They will not
win if we continue to fight for what we deserve.
And that's why the ten Steps is so important to me,
because there are ten steps to authoritarianism and intocracy, and
that's what I talked about with Anthony, But there are
(22:22):
ten steps to freedom and power. And when we have
used those steps, when we have believed that we have
the right to those steps, we not only achieved the
civil rights movement, We not only achieved reconstruction. We built
cathedrals to justice. We can win, but we have to
believe we are entitled to it, and we have to
believe that we are smart enough, strong enough, and resilient
(22:44):
enough that if we do the work, we will have
what we deserve. That's why I'm doing this work because yes,
I believe that we can win. I know we can.
We just have to believe that we are entitled to it.
And that's the work of this moment.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
I appreciate that last question and brief answer. What are
your thoughts on, you know, the future of Democrats ahead
of the midterms and ahead of the next presidential election.
You know, with respect to you know Kamona Justice and
Gavin Newsom, and you know everything going on in New
(23:17):
York and around the country. How do you feel about democrats?
Speaker 3 (23:24):
We when when we prove that democracy can deliver, Democracy
as a construct is meaningless. Democracy has to deliver because
when you've lived your life with democracy as a failure,
because you're an intergenerational poverty, because you live under the
specter of state capture in Southern States, where your humanity
is always under question, democracy has to prove that it
(23:46):
can deliver. Democrats have to prove that we believe not
just in the notion of democracy but in its real, actualized,
lived experience. If we can do that, if we're willing
to take risks and fight back and be strong. We
can win, but I don't really care about who wins
unless the intention is for the people to win. And
(24:08):
Democrats when we are for the people, that is when
we're the most successful, and that is when we can train.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
In the world.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
I appreciate you taking the time today. One of the
things that I knew I was going to get from
you because I've obviously watched you for a long time.
I'm just one of the millions in the sea that
you know, worships at your throne if you will, And
I knew that you would come on and you would
(24:36):
share some positivity. You know, we have conversations with people
that share the reality of our situation.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
You know.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
John Hopebriant comes to mind, you know where He just
kind of tells us, Hey, here's here's where you are.
But I've realized that there needs to be some optimism
and there also needs to be some strategy. And I
think that you've do delivered on both fronts. Not to
say that John doesn't. John, he absolutely does. But John,
(25:04):
that's my guy. But but I knew that you would
deliver that today, and so I, you know, I actually
interact with our listeners.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
I talk to the people. I kind of thank you
for being.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
You know, if I get to the end of my
life and I'm in heaven and I don't see you there,
then I must be in the wrong place. So thank
you Stacey Abams. Before you go, obviously, I'd love for
you to plug your books, your your social media's, your websites,
anything like that. Let's let the people get all the
connective tissue they need to stay in your orbit.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Well, ramsays, thank you first of all for having me.
Thank you to you and Q for the invitation. You
can always find me at Stacy Abrams on all the platforms.
I have a podcast assembly required with Stacy Abrams on
every platform you like. I have a sub stack assembly notes.
I'm trying to meet people wherever they are and then
encourage people to visit APR network dot org to learn
(26:01):
more about how you can defend DEI and the Ten
Steps campaign dot org so that we can defend democracy
because together we can get this work done and we
can win.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
And that is the great Stacy Abrams. Somebody, as as
we mentioned at the top of the show, who is
providing not just you know, stability in these terms, not
just optimism in these times, I mean, but some strategy,
(26:32):
some things that people can do and should be doing
on the ground. I know that you know you were
in the studio listening for most of the conversation. Q.
But what were your reflections? Of course I asked your
questions as well. What were your reflections on the conversation?
Speaker 4 (26:46):
Equity cannot exist if we do not have democracy. Yeah, Like,
she's so calm and sober, minded and prepared and ready
and organized and has a strategy and has a plan.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
It's like.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
I think you and I talked before about if you're
going to get into a fight and your cause is righteous,
you don't have fear.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
That's Stacy Abrams.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Like.
Speaker 4 (27:20):
She's grounded in the righteousness of her cause. So she's
not unsteady, she's not flappable, she's not nervous, she's not afraid.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
She just knows what needs to be done.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
I'm shocked that she's not more nervous, because this seemed
like that amount of calm and confidence would require for
there to be other people who would join in on
this fight.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
But man, we need her.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Man, Yeah, and uh, fortunately it seems like we have her.
So Let's make sure we use the time wisely. Let's
make sure that we use the strategy that she gave us.
Let's make sure that we stay tapped in and we
remain vigilant and resilient. You know, those of us that
(28:08):
consider this government to be hostile toward us, obviously, there
are brilliant minds all the way around. And you know,
some people are still working. Based on the weekend we had,
it seems like a lot of people are still working
and that is a good sign.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Indeed, bet in.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Mind that's going to do it for us Here on
the QR Code. Today Shows always was produced by the
great Chris Thompson. If you ask some thought you'd like
to share, please use the red microphone talkback feature on
the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
While you're there, be.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Sure to hit subscribe and download all of our episodes. Also,
be sure to find us and follow us on all
social media at Civic ciphere. You can find me at
Ramsey's Jah.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
I am Qward on all social media as well.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Indeed he is, and be sure to join us next
time as we share our news with our voice from
our perspective right here on the QR Code.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Peace
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