September 18, 2024 • 35 mins
We pick up where we left off in our last episode with our guest Tony Porter, author of Breaking Out of the Man Box. Iyanla and Tony continue their wide-ranging conversation and unpack how to keep men accountable, how to foster healthy communication, and how to encourage men to support women in leadership roles.
Tony also leans in and helps listeners understand how to reframe the dynamics between men and women, how to prevent violence against women, and highlights the harm that the collective socialization of men has on all genders.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
I am a Yamla. I've been very open about the
fact that I was not always good at making my
relationships work. I have been divorced three times, twice from
the same person. In other words, I have seen a
lot and failed a lot in my relationships. So I
am here to share with you what I learned along
(00:23):
the way, because I did take copious notes. Welcome to
the R Spot, a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership
with iHeartRadio. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to the R Spot.
(00:44):
If you were with us last week, you heard me
and my guest, Tony Porter, an author, a activist, an
educator who works toward eliminating a racial and gender inequality.
Tony is the author of Breaking out of the man Box.
(01:04):
He's talking about reimagining manhood and eliminating the impact of
the collective socialization of men that have put them on
what he calls remote control manhood. So we are going
to continue that conversation today because it is just too
good to cut out anything. I want you to hear
(01:26):
it all, and here we go. I want to ask
you some questions that I get.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
All of the time.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
I get all of the time from women and so
that we can hear it from you, so that we
have a a better way of dealing with the men
in our lives and be a better way of raising
our sons. That's my concern, because we're raising future husband's
future fathers. Okay, here's a question that I get all
(01:57):
of the time. He doesn't communicate. What can I do
to help him communicate? He doesn't communicate? So we understand
the collective socialization. We understand the man's fear of being
vulnerable or looking weak. We understand his resistance to asking
for help. But as a woman with a man, I
love my boo. He's here, he's you know, the father, mito. Whatever,
(02:20):
how do I support assists?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
What do I do I think understanding the collective socialization
and the role that plays in the lack of communication
that we bring forward as men, makes it easy or
what helps us to work with man in a way
that makes sense or make that way that's productive, because
we're not just these guys that don't you know, to
(02:46):
just say, you know, I can't get this guy to talk.
I can't get him to communicate with me. If we
can think differently more about how we have been socialized,
not to communicate right and to use that to help
help you in the process of getting him to open up.
(03:06):
So particularly, let me start with boys. Women do this
with boys better than men do, by the way, because men,
again it is not just about not a the ability
to ask for help, we don't like to offer it.
So women will teach their sons to communicate in a
way that men don't, and actually, through that, boys will
when they do want to talk, or men, when they
(03:29):
do want to talk, they're going to talk to a
women before they're going to talk to another man, because
that's who was in their lives to talk with when
they were boys. Men we disconnect from each other when
it comes to that level of intimacy. Women stay at
the table. But for me, it was teaching my sons.
(03:49):
Just telling me I'm good, everything's cool, and I'm good
wasn't enough. We had to have a conversation, right, to
teach them to talk about their feelings, to teach them
to have conversation that include how they feel. That that's
a process, ongoing process. But let's say you get with
a man and he ain't there yet, he didn't have
that teaching or that experience, and now you're trying to
(04:10):
jumpstart this thing. I think you gotta have patience, gotta
have tolerance. Don't take it personal. This is not in
a personal saut on you. Right, there's a baby step process, right,
it could be very well could be a babyst process.
It could be a seize the moment when he shows
(04:30):
up in that way. But when you seize the moment,
don't overwhelm him, right, Don't overwhelm them when the moment's dead, right,
and give them, give them some room just to let
it out, to say what it is he wants to say,
without being bombarded with a thousand questions. Right, give him
the space to kind of guide the ship a little bit.
(04:53):
And then every now and then you can turn it somewhat.
But give him the room to kind of guide it
a little bit. Right. Uh, those are the kind of
factcause yeah, yeah, because I know, particularly when you get
excited and you know, because you see an opening or whatever,
or even when you're mad, right, when you're when you're
upset with him, that's when it really happens more, and
(05:16):
not when you're upset with him. I think as men, though,
we need to be held accountable. It's not about letting
us off the hook. Either there's a level of accountability,
the level of maturity, if he has a friend. Far
too often, like we're blessed as men if we got
as as young members say that ride or die. We're
(05:38):
blessed if we have that, because we end relationships so
easily as man. It's not just what women is with anybody, right,
and women have lifelong relationships much more than we do
as men. That y'all take hand of each other in
a way that we don't collectively as as as men.
(05:59):
But if he happens to have that person in his
life and that person is a good person, that kind,
if she can rely on that person and ask to
build that kind of community around that man, it's best
served obviously. Well, success is greater when we can teach
theself boys as they grow into being men. But we
(06:20):
already have men now that need a hand here. So
my best advice is tolerance, patience, right, don't overwhelm, but
look for yours and opportunities. And when he's dumping, let
that boy dunk right, and then figure out how to
be there with him. Put your arm around him, give
(06:41):
him a big kiss, something that tells him I can
come back and dump again tomorrow. And also it's important
for women to be hay with men sharing their feelings
and emotions because again, the same lessons that we've been
taught as it relates to what it means to be
(07:02):
a man, women have been taught the same thing. So
a lot of women don't want that man sharing a
lot of feelings a lot of emotions that you know,
they believe that that's my space to do that that
ain't for him. But what I'm saying is, if your
man is not sharing his feelings and emotions, it's not
like he's not stuffing them away. And when he stuffs
(07:23):
him away, they come out sideways because they're coming out
somewhere another. You know, there was a time, and that
was a time. I just haven't had the opportunity of sometime.
And I'm in front of a room, say a couple
of hundred people, and I would ask the folks in
the room, raise your hand. If you've never seen your
father cry. Probably about a third of folks in the
(07:44):
room hand go up, and I'll say keep your hand up.
And those of you who only seen your dad or
father figure cry once, please raise your hand. Between once
and never, two thirds of the room easily, easily two
thirds of the room has their hand up. That's killing
(08:06):
us as men, right, that's killing us as men. So
it's really really important that we raise our boys to
learn and be able to share who they are emotionally,
and we cultivate that with our men as well. And
a lot of it is on the shoulders at this
(08:28):
particular time, a lot of it is, unfortunately on the
shoulders of women.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
I'm going to recap those notes. I want to get
a couple of more of these questions. And here's the
other thing. Let me just say this. When I work
with men, I give them a list of feelings.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
I've got a very extensive I got a list, I
got a positive list, I got a negative list. And
because so many men don't have the vocabulary, their emotional
library is good, bad, right, wrong, angry, happy. They don't
know anxiety, they don't know disappointment, they don't know frustration,
(09:09):
they don't know melancholic.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
So I give them a list and I say, okay,
use it, and they use it.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
So here's another question I get asked by women all
of the time. Let mean, this is how they say it.
They'll give me a scenario and I say, okay, well
that's disrespectful. They'll say, well, how come he can disrespect me,
I can't disrespect them.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
It makes sense. And we're back to communication, right and
how we communicate, how we do or don't communicate with
each other. And you're right, my thoughts are very important
to me for women or feelings are very important to her.
And then how do we in a very mature way
find that sweet spot in how we negotiate That is important.
(10:00):
Maturity is very very important in respect to what we're
talking about. Humility is very important, and respect we're talking
about the ability to be humble and remain teachable. It
is very important to what we're talking about. Understanding issues
of gender as it relates to equity and equality, it's
(10:24):
very very important, I think for men to understand understand that, understand,
like I said, those three aspects of men with less
value plus property plus objectification, because in those experiences with
women that's in there for us. We need to understand
what their experience has been like being victimized by that,
(10:47):
and what our experience has been like not only being
perpetrators of that, but many of us are not in
an overt way but with benefactors of it regards to
understand to that, I think it's just really important for
us as men to spend time really exploring healthy manhood.
(11:12):
And if we explore that, you know, what it means
to be a healthy man. That means you're asking for help,
you're offering help, you're accepting help. It means that you're
willing to share your feelings and emotions openly. It means
that you're willing to be vulnerable. It means that you're
willing to work toward being your authentic self. It means
(11:34):
that you're taking an interest in the experience of women
and girls in sexual conquests. Is not a goal, you know,
all of this encompasses being healthy men. I'm not here
to be an authority in any sense of the word
pretty much or nothing, but definitely not on the experience
of women. But I do know and truly believe if
(11:59):
we accompl some of the things that we're talking about
as men, you know, and various times in my life
doing men's groups, we would talk about the reality that
men and women may come to a situation or come
into a situation where we both have like let's say,
a laundry list of issues. I still today believe that
(12:26):
if we as men work on our issues alone, just
work on ours. But in that relationship with her, her
laundry list also begins to shrink as we're working on ours,
because there are things on our lists, you know, that
are really impacting her, that's contributing to her list. We
(12:47):
just work on our list long, Let's just work on
our stuff alone, right, I believe in a male dominating
society which we still live in, her laundry list begins
to shrink, right, But there are many things on her
list that has come by the way of, you know,
the trauma that she's experienced at the hands of men,
(13:09):
and our level of maturity to be in that space
and understand that and what we then take personal and
what we don't. That's the work of men, you know.
And I really believe that when men, you know, join
on with other men, create space, have these kinds of
(13:32):
conversations that you and I having today with the battles
for it, with the better for it. And I'm also
going to say, you know, most of the spaces that
myself the other men of our organizations get to speak
to men, I would say probably still seven out of
(13:54):
ten times is women organizing the event or the activity
for us to have an opportunity to speak to men? Right?
One of when you do prevention work, you know, it
was hard to measure. One of my own personal measurements
is when we at least get to fifty to fifty
fifty percent of the time we're invited by men and
(14:16):
fifty percent of the time we're invited by women. And
we're not there yet.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
And we'll talk about that when we come back. Welcome
back to the rspot. I want to raise this with
you because I got you hearing you from New York,
so I know we think kind of a like. I
have been very, very troubled and disturbed by the language
(14:49):
used toward Madam Vice President as she pursues this new
position as president of this country. And my disturbance has
been I've heard a number of white men call her
(15:09):
out of her name, stupid, non intelligent. In addition to
the one who shall remain nameless, I won't utter his
name out of my mouth. But others have jumped.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
On the bandwagon.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
They've questioned her ability because she's not doing it the
way they do it. She needs to do an interview,
she needs to do this. She need you know. But
I have been very disturbed by the silence of black
men at the way this sister woman has been spoken
about publicly.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
I believe for us as men see, I do my
work from a place of being unapologetically pro black women. Now,
if you don't understand what that me like, I can
have white women that will be upset when they hear that.
But the truth of the matter is when I say
I'm unapologetically pro black women, that means I also care
(16:09):
about you. But what it means is that I sent
to the experience of black women, and that allows me
to be in our live of all women. But if
I start out by centering the experiences of white women
in the country like the United States of America, which
(16:31):
is a racist class in other forms, a group of
pressing constructs, I really ever get to black women. I
got to reach in too deep. So if I start
with black women and work my way out, all women
will benefit. I am unapologetically pro black women, and I
say that proudly, and I say that out loud, and
(16:52):
I'm not and by doing that, I'm not doing anything
special because I should be that. So it's not like
I'm saying that. Don't get me no pat on the
back for just simply doing what I'm supposed to be doing.
But I need to say it out loud for other
brothers to hear it said out loud. I think the
misogyny that we're not aware of that's in us also
(17:15):
contributes to silencing us right in the face of these
other men who would, dare you know, speak about Black
women and the way they do for us, it almost
goes as black men that we're speaking about specifically right now.
For us, it almost goes over our head the fact
(17:38):
that they're speaking about black women to a place up
they're just speaking about women. I don't even know if
we connect fully with the fact that they're speaking about
black women, that they're speaking about women from our community.
I don't even know how to what degree we connect
with that, because the misogyny runs through our beings, as
do minds too, all Right, I have to constantly confront it,
(18:02):
challenge it, do some self wrapped when it comes upon me.
Right now, I don't think in a male dominating, a
white male dominating race construct such as the United States
of America, you can't get away from this stuff. It's
in us, and denying that this in us will land
(18:24):
toward us doing more harm. I also joined that call
of brothers and we raise a lot of money, and
it was a lot of brothers on that course. So
it's a lot of us that are really down with
our sister. That's not even a question. We are down,
but you're gonna always have. Unfortunately, the men who are not,
(18:47):
and the question, the real question right for them is
to really grapple with the misogyny that we're taught that's
in us as men that contribute to this. But I'm
going to also lift up the brothers that are all
over this I was so so proud to be on
(19:08):
it wall. But these same black men that you're speaking
about would be silent if it was any woman. The
challenges we're not connected to her blackness, which then tells
us we should have a high level of responsibility. It's
the fact that we're not connected to her blackness because
(19:30):
this is how men talk about women in general. Now,
of course they take it to a whole nother level
when they're talking about black women, right, and as them
talking about black women, I mean, we should be offended
if they're talking about any woman. But by virtue talking
about black women, it should go to another level for us.
Why shouldn't it? Of course it should, but for many
of us as men, it doesn't. It doesn't go to
(19:51):
another level or responsibility or accountability. So it just says
we would sit through them saying that about a white woman,
will sit through them saying that about a black woman,
because for us, the sexism runs deep, the male domination
runs deep, and our responsibility to black women do not
co opt that, and it's unfortunate and we have to
(20:14):
be reminded about that. But I'm fully aware of what
you're saying and what you're sharing, and there's a responsibility
as an accountability on us as black men to understand
that and to be aware of that and to teach
that to our boys as well.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Let me ask you this. I lived in a violent
relationship for nine years. My husband was physically violent, emotionally violent,
all of that, and I'll never forget one day we
had this big mashup. I can't even say it was
a fight because he was six four two sixty.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
I'm five to five.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
And I remember afterwards and I was going outside with
my black eye covered up or whatever, and he was
coming with me. We're walking out like nothing is wrong.
And a neighbor who lived on the third floor came down,
(21:18):
walked up to us. His name was mister Charlie. His
wife's name was Miss Ruth. And he said to my husband,
he said, mister, I'm gonna tell you this one time.
If I ever hear again you put your hands on her,
You're gonna have to deal with me.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Now.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Much to my shock and surprise, he didn't say anything.
He didn't say anything. He just walked. You know, we
just kept walking away. I was both scared to death
and shocked. So my question is, if you are a
man and you know a brother, man, whether you know
(22:03):
him or not, your neighbor, your nephew, your brother is
being violent towards a woman, what do you do? What
do you do?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Well, that's a great question in many cases, because your
neighbor could have put himself in harm's wife right, And
that's a personal choice that men make. And I'm not
taking that choice off the table because we are in
an epidemic of violence against women and girl. But that's
(22:33):
a personal choice. But the truth of the matter is,
and he didn't and the man who knew your husband.
But because the point is, most of the time, men
who are close to a man who's abusive knows he's abusive,
or at least knows by his behavior that he definitely
has a tendency to be abusive. And in many cases,
(22:58):
it's not a situation where we're putting ourselves in harm's way.
It could be my cousin, it could be my brother,
it could be my son. Right, we know that they're
abusive or have the tendency to be abusive, and we
are absorbing that behavior and not challenging it. So much
of that is rooted in again just doing tradition. She's
(23:21):
his property and he can do with his property as
he chooses. Right when we walk down the aisles and
the person officiating the service says, who give this woman away?
And first of all, you don't give nothing away and
let you own it. And the dad gave her away,
she is now his right to do it as he chooses.
(23:46):
And like I said in the beginning, there wasn't a
time where women were to property man. We know that's
not the case, but we know it's tolerated, right, very
much tolerated. And so there's a couple of things for
us as men to teach that the boys right to redefined.
Man who has a respects to women's property, for men
(24:09):
who are in relationship with men who have these behaviors
to challenge that, to speak to it. You know, the
world I envision is a man who's assault on his wife.
Ten men from the neighborhood knock on his door and say,
your brother, we're here in peace. We're here and love
(24:30):
we as men, we don't live that way. And that
when he goes to work and he got the four
or five guys that he plays cards with at lunchtime,
they say, you know what we heard about you, when
we heard about what you're doing. You know, we welcome
at this card table until you change your way. When
he goes to his son's little league baseball game, the
coach says, your son is welcome here.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Man.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
We love your son, but I'm not dealing with you
until you change your way. That's when we say that men,
that women can end this on their own. They would
have already. When we say it's the number one call
for the last thirty years for the police departments, that
simply means a criminal justice response is not going to
(25:14):
change this what's going to change this is when we
collectively as men say we've had enough, right, that's what's
going to change. This is on our shoulders, it's on
our watch right. That's what's going to change when we
collectively as men say we'll no longer going to tolerate this.
And it's not about violence. It's not using violence to
(25:36):
end violence. It's about our relationship with each other as men.
We make sure we tell each other the stories that
are going to benefit maintaining this collective socialization. Because, for example,
you hear every man has heard a story that if
you get involved, she's going to jump on you too,
(25:58):
right out. And if you ask men, have you ever
experienced that? Most men say no, But I heard about
it right, that if something's going down and I get involved,
she's gonna jump on me too. Now that's not to
say it's never happened, right, because it has happened. But
the reason she jumped and you were defending her and
she jumped on you also because she knows that she's
(26:21):
gonna hold her responsible for you correcting his behavior. Right,
So if I can jump on you or yell also
tell you to mind your business, that will lessen the
assault I'm going to experience when I get home. We're
gonna still beat me up when I get home. You're
gonna say I was looking at you, you were looking
at me. Maybe I like this, dude, Do you really
(26:43):
know that guy from somewhere? Because why else would he
be in our business? All that's going to be on
the table when she gets home. But at least by
yelling at you and curse it at you, except you're
telling you to mind your business whatever, whatever, whatever, that's
gonna lessen the assault. And as men for us, that
just simply tells us she likes getting to beat So
(27:04):
we just now we have the greenlight just in all
situations mind our business. Right. So it's just really important
for men to have these conversations to educate ourselves, get
off of remote control and stop doing tradition.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
We'll talk about that right after this break. Welcome back
to the our spot. Let's get back to the conversation. Wow, wow, wow, Tony,
you have given us just I'm just I got my
little paper. I'm just going crazy. Thank you for helping
(27:44):
us me and anyone listening. This collective socialization. I've never
heard it crystallized like that. That men are taught women
are of less value, that they're objectified, they become the
property of men, which then humanizes now and that dehumanization
often leads to the violence against women. As women, as
(28:09):
we are dealing with our men, understand that that collective
socialization has put them in a box of domination, power control,
also where they don't ask for help, don't offer help,
and don't accept help, which then leads to all manner
of mental, emotional, and then physical malady. I say, I
(28:33):
say it's arrested development because men are not willing to
be vulnerable or to to you know, acknowledge fears and weaknesses.
They have a rested development. As women, you're saying, when
we want to get into or support our men in
becoming a reimagined version of manhood, that we've got to
(28:57):
be patient. You said that that his disconnect or his
withholding withdrawing is not personal. You said, don't overwhelm him
with questions. If he's speaking or sharing or dumping, don't
overwhelm him. Be grateful for the fact that he's talking
(29:18):
and that he can come back again because maybe now
he experiences you as a safe space. Don't make him wrong.
I added that you didn't say that, but I'm saying that.
Don't make it wrong. Let us learn to respect his
thinking and not be offended that he doesn't understand our
feelings because very often his emotional library, his language, his
(29:43):
voice for sharing that isn't there.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Let me just add one thing to that piece. Then
I don't want the same time to it look to
it to appeal or look like or the experience to
be that. We still don't need to be held accountable
and we've wrong, and that's part of this conversation. We
still need to be accountable is the negotiation of it,
(30:07):
all right, I'm not taking accountability off the table right
where we need to be accountable as men. We need
to be accountable. At a call to men, we talk
about reaching in and grabbing the hearts of men, ohn right,
and that we can have accountable conversations that can also
be loving and kind and respectful. And that's how we
(30:29):
go about engaging men. It's very important to us that
whether we have whole day or one hour or thirty minutes,
that men leave our presence thinking and feeling differently than
they did when they entered. And that means grabbing the
hearts of men. But we know that it could be
a long journey from the head to the heart with
(30:52):
a lot of roadblocks and detours and obstacles, and we
know that to be true, right, But that's the work,
that's where change happens for us is at the heart
is about transformation, not transaction. Men live in transactions, but
here women do transformation much better. But that's what we're
(31:12):
talking about here, about transformation. How do you help him
in that space of transformation?
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Tony Parter, author, educator, activists committed to creating gender and
racial equality, committed to reimagining manhood. What's the final call
you'd like to put out to men right here? That's
my first question. My second question is how can I
(31:43):
support you so?
Speaker 2 (31:45):
And I appreciate that, and I can answer both of
those questions in one voice as in the name of
a call to men. We want men to join us.
We want men to join this effort, to join this movement,
to become part of solution and ending this epidemic of
violence against women and girls. And we are not just
ending in epidemical violence against women and girls, also promoting healthy,
(32:09):
respectful manhood. Remember that this collective socialization, also known as
the manbox is not only forcing epidemical violence against women
and girls, it's killing us as men too. So I
want to ask men, you know, just reach out to us.
We want everything social media call to men. Our website
(32:30):
is to call Themen dot org. There's tons of information there.
It's all free right, you can download it, you can
make use of it is there for you to take
and become part of the solution. And my dear sister,
you're doing that work right now by having me on
your show and then introducing me to your audience of
(32:52):
follow us. Is no more than that, can we ask?
So sisters and sisters been doing it all along. They've
been at the forefront of a call to men. When
you think about how organization you might think as all
men know is half men and half women, and women
are very much in leadership at a call to men
and helping the guide this process. And so we appreciate
(33:16):
you and your contribution to it as well. Have always
been a big fan of yours and uh so just
an on and the privilege to be in your presence
and have this opportunity to chat with you.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Thank you. I'm going to send them a Call to
Men dot org A call to men dot org. If
you are a mother, if you are a man, if
your father, let's reimagine manhood, eliminate remote control manhood. And
my big concern is it's killing men. You know the
(33:53):
number instances of heart disease, heart attack, suicide, prostate cancer,
it's raising and I know nothing happens in a body
that doesn't first happen in the mind and heart. Thank
you for being with me, Tony Porter. If you're a mother,
if your sister, if you're a wife, go to the website,
find out what you need and make sure that all
(34:16):
the men in your life that they have access to it,
because we've got to get them in the space. We've
got to get them in the space so that we
don't lose them and that we can begin to neutralize
this collective socialization. I hope you got some notes. I
hope that you heard something. I hope that you listen
(34:37):
again and again. I hope that you let your sister
friends and your brother friends hear this because here on
the our spot, we are about creating better relationships. So
I'll be back next week. In the meantime, I want
you to stay in peace and not in pieces.
Speaker 4 (34:57):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
The r Spot is a production of Shondaland Audio in
partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
I am a Yamla. I've been very open about the
fact that I was not always good at making my
relationships work. I have been divorced three times, twice from
the same person. In other words, I have seen a
lot and failed a lot in my relationships. So I
am here to share with you what I learned along
(00:23):
the way, because I did take copious notes. Welcome to
the R Spot, a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership
with iHeartRadio. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to the R Spot.
(00:44):
If you were with us last week, you heard me
and my guest, Tony Porter, an author, a activist, an
educator who works toward eliminating a racial and gender inequality.
Tony is the author of Breaking out of the man Box.
(01:04):
He's talking about reimagining manhood and eliminating the impact of
the collective socialization of men that have put them on
what he calls remote control manhood. So we are going
to continue that conversation today because it is just too
good to cut out anything. I want you to hear
(01:26):
it all, and here we go. I want to ask
you some questions that I get.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
All of the time.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
I get all of the time from women and so
that we can hear it from you, so that we
have a a better way of dealing with the men
in our lives and be a better way of raising
our sons. That's my concern, because we're raising future husband's
future fathers. Okay, here's a question that I get all
(01:57):
of the time. He doesn't communicate. What can I do
to help him communicate? He doesn't communicate? So we understand
the collective socialization. We understand the man's fear of being
vulnerable or looking weak. We understand his resistance to asking
for help. But as a woman with a man, I
love my boo. He's here, he's you know, the father, mito. Whatever,
(02:20):
how do I support assists?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
What do I do I think understanding the collective socialization
and the role that plays in the lack of communication
that we bring forward as men, makes it easy or
what helps us to work with man in a way
that makes sense or make that way that's productive, because
we're not just these guys that don't you know, to
(02:46):
just say, you know, I can't get this guy to talk.
I can't get him to communicate with me. If we
can think differently more about how we have been socialized,
not to communicate right and to use that to help
help you in the process of getting him to open up.
(03:06):
So particularly, let me start with boys. Women do this
with boys better than men do, by the way, because men,
again it is not just about not a the ability
to ask for help, we don't like to offer it.
So women will teach their sons to communicate in a
way that men don't, and actually, through that, boys will
when they do want to talk, or men, when they
(03:29):
do want to talk, they're going to talk to a
women before they're going to talk to another man, because
that's who was in their lives to talk with when
they were boys. Men we disconnect from each other when
it comes to that level of intimacy. Women stay at
the table. But for me, it was teaching my sons.
(03:49):
Just telling me I'm good, everything's cool, and I'm good
wasn't enough. We had to have a conversation, right, to
teach them to talk about their feelings, to teach them
to have conversation that include how they feel. That that's
a process, ongoing process. But let's say you get with
a man and he ain't there yet, he didn't have
that teaching or that experience, and now you're trying to
(04:10):
jumpstart this thing. I think you gotta have patience, gotta
have tolerance. Don't take it personal. This is not in
a personal saut on you. Right, there's a baby step process, right,
it could be very well could be a babyst process.
It could be a seize the moment when he shows
(04:30):
up in that way. But when you seize the moment,
don't overwhelm him, right, Don't overwhelm them when the moment's dead, right,
and give them, give them some room just to let
it out, to say what it is he wants to say,
without being bombarded with a thousand questions. Right, give him
the space to kind of guide the ship a little bit.
(04:53):
And then every now and then you can turn it somewhat.
But give him the room to kind of guide it
a little bit. Right. Uh, those are the kind of
factcause yeah, yeah, because I know, particularly when you get
excited and you know, because you see an opening or whatever,
or even when you're mad, right, when you're when you're
upset with him, that's when it really happens more, and
(05:16):
not when you're upset with him. I think as men, though,
we need to be held accountable. It's not about letting
us off the hook. Either there's a level of accountability,
the level of maturity, if he has a friend. Far
too often, like we're blessed as men if we got
as as young members say that ride or die. We're
(05:38):
blessed if we have that, because we end relationships so
easily as man. It's not just what women is with anybody, right,
and women have lifelong relationships much more than we do
as men. That y'all take hand of each other in
a way that we don't collectively as as as men.
(05:59):
But if he happens to have that person in his
life and that person is a good person, that kind,
if she can rely on that person and ask to
build that kind of community around that man, it's best
served obviously. Well, success is greater when we can teach
theself boys as they grow into being men. But we
(06:20):
already have men now that need a hand here. So
my best advice is tolerance, patience, right, don't overwhelm, but
look for yours and opportunities. And when he's dumping, let
that boy dunk right, and then figure out how to
be there with him. Put your arm around him, give
(06:41):
him a big kiss, something that tells him I can
come back and dump again tomorrow. And also it's important
for women to be hay with men sharing their feelings
and emotions because again, the same lessons that we've been
taught as it relates to what it means to be
(07:02):
a man, women have been taught the same thing. So
a lot of women don't want that man sharing a
lot of feelings a lot of emotions that you know,
they believe that that's my space to do that that
ain't for him. But what I'm saying is, if your
man is not sharing his feelings and emotions, it's not
like he's not stuffing them away. And when he stuffs
(07:23):
him away, they come out sideways because they're coming out
somewhere another. You know, there was a time, and that
was a time. I just haven't had the opportunity of sometime.
And I'm in front of a room, say a couple
of hundred people, and I would ask the folks in
the room, raise your hand. If you've never seen your
father cry. Probably about a third of folks in the
(07:44):
room hand go up, and I'll say keep your hand up.
And those of you who only seen your dad or
father figure cry once, please raise your hand. Between once
and never, two thirds of the room easily, easily two
thirds of the room has their hand up. That's killing
(08:06):
us as men, right, that's killing us as men. So
it's really really important that we raise our boys to
learn and be able to share who they are emotionally,
and we cultivate that with our men as well. And
a lot of it is on the shoulders at this
(08:28):
particular time, a lot of it is, unfortunately on the
shoulders of women.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
I'm going to recap those notes. I want to get
a couple of more of these questions. And here's the
other thing. Let me just say this. When I work
with men, I give them a list of feelings.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
I've got a very extensive I got a list, I
got a positive list, I got a negative list. And
because so many men don't have the vocabulary, their emotional
library is good, bad, right, wrong, angry, happy. They don't
know anxiety, they don't know disappointment, they don't know frustration,
(09:09):
they don't know melancholic.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
So I give them a list and I say, okay,
use it, and they use it.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
So here's another question I get asked by women all
of the time. Let mean, this is how they say it.
They'll give me a scenario and I say, okay, well
that's disrespectful. They'll say, well, how come he can disrespect me,
I can't disrespect them.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
It makes sense. And we're back to communication, right and
how we communicate, how we do or don't communicate with
each other. And you're right, my thoughts are very important
to me for women or feelings are very important to her.
And then how do we in a very mature way
find that sweet spot in how we negotiate That is important.
(10:00):
Maturity is very very important in respect to what we're
talking about. Humility is very important, and respect we're talking
about the ability to be humble and remain teachable. It
is very important to what we're talking about. Understanding issues
of gender as it relates to equity and equality, it's
(10:24):
very very important, I think for men to understand understand that, understand,
like I said, those three aspects of men with less
value plus property plus objectification, because in those experiences with
women that's in there for us. We need to understand
what their experience has been like being victimized by that,
(10:47):
and what our experience has been like not only being
perpetrators of that, but many of us are not in
an overt way but with benefactors of it regards to
understand to that, I think it's just really important for
us as men to spend time really exploring healthy manhood.
(11:12):
And if we explore that, you know, what it means
to be a healthy man. That means you're asking for help,
you're offering help, you're accepting help. It means that you're
willing to share your feelings and emotions openly. It means
that you're willing to be vulnerable. It means that you're
willing to work toward being your authentic self. It means
(11:34):
that you're taking an interest in the experience of women
and girls in sexual conquests. Is not a goal, you know,
all of this encompasses being healthy men. I'm not here
to be an authority in any sense of the word
pretty much or nothing, but definitely not on the experience
of women. But I do know and truly believe if
(11:59):
we accompl some of the things that we're talking about
as men, you know, and various times in my life
doing men's groups, we would talk about the reality that
men and women may come to a situation or come
into a situation where we both have like let's say,
a laundry list of issues. I still today believe that
(12:26):
if we as men work on our issues alone, just
work on ours. But in that relationship with her, her
laundry list also begins to shrink as we're working on ours,
because there are things on our lists, you know, that
are really impacting her, that's contributing to her list. We
(12:47):
just work on our list long, Let's just work on
our stuff alone, right, I believe in a male dominating
society which we still live in, her laundry list begins
to shrink, right, But there are many things on her
list that has come by the way of, you know,
the trauma that she's experienced at the hands of men,
(13:09):
and our level of maturity to be in that space
and understand that and what we then take personal and
what we don't. That's the work of men, you know.
And I really believe that when men, you know, join
on with other men, create space, have these kinds of
(13:32):
conversations that you and I having today with the battles
for it, with the better for it. And I'm also
going to say, you know, most of the spaces that
myself the other men of our organizations get to speak
to men, I would say probably still seven out of
(13:54):
ten times is women organizing the event or the activity
for us to have an opportunity to speak to men? Right?
One of when you do prevention work, you know, it
was hard to measure. One of my own personal measurements
is when we at least get to fifty to fifty
fifty percent of the time we're invited by men and
(14:16):
fifty percent of the time we're invited by women. And
we're not there yet.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
And we'll talk about that when we come back. Welcome
back to the rspot. I want to raise this with
you because I got you hearing you from New York,
so I know we think kind of a like. I
have been very, very troubled and disturbed by the language
(14:49):
used toward Madam Vice President as she pursues this new
position as president of this country. And my disturbance has
been I've heard a number of white men call her
(15:09):
out of her name, stupid, non intelligent. In addition to
the one who shall remain nameless, I won't utter his
name out of my mouth. But others have jumped.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
On the bandwagon.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
They've questioned her ability because she's not doing it the
way they do it. She needs to do an interview,
she needs to do this. She need you know. But
I have been very disturbed by the silence of black
men at the way this sister woman has been spoken
about publicly.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
I believe for us as men see, I do my
work from a place of being unapologetically pro black women. Now,
if you don't understand what that me like, I can
have white women that will be upset when they hear that.
But the truth of the matter is when I say
I'm unapologetically pro black women, that means I also care
(16:09):
about you. But what it means is that I sent
to the experience of black women, and that allows me
to be in our live of all women. But if
I start out by centering the experiences of white women
in the country like the United States of America, which
(16:31):
is a racist class in other forms, a group of
pressing constructs, I really ever get to black women. I
got to reach in too deep. So if I start
with black women and work my way out, all women
will benefit. I am unapologetically pro black women, and I
say that proudly, and I say that out loud, and
(16:52):
I'm not and by doing that, I'm not doing anything
special because I should be that. So it's not like
I'm saying that. Don't get me no pat on the
back for just simply doing what I'm supposed to be doing.
But I need to say it out loud for other
brothers to hear it said out loud. I think the
misogyny that we're not aware of that's in us also
(17:15):
contributes to silencing us right in the face of these
other men who would, dare you know, speak about Black
women and the way they do for us, it almost
goes as black men that we're speaking about specifically right now.
For us, it almost goes over our head the fact
(17:38):
that they're speaking about black women to a place up
they're just speaking about women. I don't even know if
we connect fully with the fact that they're speaking about
black women, that they're speaking about women from our community.
I don't even know how to what degree we connect
with that, because the misogyny runs through our beings, as
do minds too, all Right, I have to constantly confront it,
(18:02):
challenge it, do some self wrapped when it comes upon me.
Right now, I don't think in a male dominating, a
white male dominating race construct such as the United States
of America, you can't get away from this stuff. It's
in us, and denying that this in us will land
(18:24):
toward us doing more harm. I also joined that call
of brothers and we raise a lot of money, and
it was a lot of brothers on that course. So
it's a lot of us that are really down with
our sister. That's not even a question. We are down,
but you're gonna always have. Unfortunately, the men who are not,
(18:47):
and the question, the real question right for them is
to really grapple with the misogyny that we're taught that's
in us as men that contribute to this. But I'm
going to also lift up the brothers that are all
over this I was so so proud to be on
(19:08):
it wall. But these same black men that you're speaking
about would be silent if it was any woman. The
challenges we're not connected to her blackness, which then tells
us we should have a high level of responsibility. It's
the fact that we're not connected to her blackness because
(19:30):
this is how men talk about women in general. Now,
of course they take it to a whole nother level
when they're talking about black women, right, and as them
talking about black women, I mean, we should be offended
if they're talking about any woman. But by virtue talking
about black women, it should go to another level for us.
Why shouldn't it? Of course it should, but for many
of us as men, it doesn't. It doesn't go to
(19:51):
another level or responsibility or accountability. So it just says
we would sit through them saying that about a white woman,
will sit through them saying that about a black woman,
because for us, the sexism runs deep, the male domination
runs deep, and our responsibility to black women do not
co opt that, and it's unfortunate and we have to
(20:14):
be reminded about that. But I'm fully aware of what
you're saying and what you're sharing, and there's a responsibility
as an accountability on us as black men to understand
that and to be aware of that and to teach
that to our boys as well.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Let me ask you this. I lived in a violent
relationship for nine years. My husband was physically violent, emotionally violent,
all of that, and I'll never forget one day we
had this big mashup. I can't even say it was
a fight because he was six four two sixty.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
I'm five to five.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
And I remember afterwards and I was going outside with
my black eye covered up or whatever, and he was
coming with me. We're walking out like nothing is wrong.
And a neighbor who lived on the third floor came down,
(21:18):
walked up to us. His name was mister Charlie. His
wife's name was Miss Ruth. And he said to my husband,
he said, mister, I'm gonna tell you this one time.
If I ever hear again you put your hands on her,
You're gonna have to deal with me.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Now.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Much to my shock and surprise, he didn't say anything.
He didn't say anything. He just walked. You know, we
just kept walking away. I was both scared to death
and shocked. So my question is, if you are a
man and you know a brother, man, whether you know
(22:03):
him or not, your neighbor, your nephew, your brother is
being violent towards a woman, what do you do? What
do you do?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Well, that's a great question in many cases, because your
neighbor could have put himself in harm's wife right, And
that's a personal choice that men make. And I'm not
taking that choice off the table because we are in
an epidemic of violence against women and girl. But that's
(22:33):
a personal choice. But the truth of the matter is,
and he didn't and the man who knew your husband.
But because the point is, most of the time, men
who are close to a man who's abusive knows he's abusive,
or at least knows by his behavior that he definitely
has a tendency to be abusive. And in many cases,
(22:58):
it's not a situation where we're putting ourselves in harm's way.
It could be my cousin, it could be my brother,
it could be my son. Right, we know that they're
abusive or have the tendency to be abusive, and we
are absorbing that behavior and not challenging it. So much
of that is rooted in again just doing tradition. She's
(23:21):
his property and he can do with his property as
he chooses. Right when we walk down the aisles and
the person officiating the service says, who give this woman away?
And first of all, you don't give nothing away and
let you own it. And the dad gave her away,
she is now his right to do it as he chooses.
(23:46):
And like I said in the beginning, there wasn't a
time where women were to property man. We know that's
not the case, but we know it's tolerated, right, very
much tolerated. And so there's a couple of things for
us as men to teach that the boys right to redefined.
Man who has a respects to women's property, for men
(24:09):
who are in relationship with men who have these behaviors
to challenge that, to speak to it. You know, the
world I envision is a man who's assault on his wife.
Ten men from the neighborhood knock on his door and say,
your brother, we're here in peace. We're here and love
(24:30):
we as men, we don't live that way. And that
when he goes to work and he got the four
or five guys that he plays cards with at lunchtime,
they say, you know what we heard about you, when
we heard about what you're doing. You know, we welcome
at this card table until you change your way. When
he goes to his son's little league baseball game, the
coach says, your son is welcome here.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Man.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
We love your son, but I'm not dealing with you
until you change your way. That's when we say that men,
that women can end this on their own. They would
have already. When we say it's the number one call
for the last thirty years for the police departments, that
simply means a criminal justice response is not going to
(25:14):
change this what's going to change this is when we
collectively as men say we've had enough, right, that's what's
going to change. This is on our shoulders, it's on
our watch right. That's what's going to change when we
collectively as men say we'll no longer going to tolerate this.
And it's not about violence. It's not using violence to
(25:36):
end violence. It's about our relationship with each other as men.
We make sure we tell each other the stories that
are going to benefit maintaining this collective socialization. Because, for example,
you hear every man has heard a story that if
you get involved, she's going to jump on you too,
(25:58):
right out. And if you ask men, have you ever
experienced that? Most men say no, But I heard about
it right, that if something's going down and I get involved,
she's gonna jump on me too. Now that's not to
say it's never happened, right, because it has happened. But
the reason she jumped and you were defending her and
she jumped on you also because she knows that she's
(26:21):
gonna hold her responsible for you correcting his behavior. Right,
So if I can jump on you or yell also
tell you to mind your business, that will lessen the
assault I'm going to experience when I get home. We're
gonna still beat me up when I get home. You're
gonna say I was looking at you, you were looking
at me. Maybe I like this, dude, Do you really
(26:43):
know that guy from somewhere? Because why else would he
be in our business? All that's going to be on
the table when she gets home. But at least by
yelling at you and curse it at you, except you're
telling you to mind your business whatever, whatever, whatever, that's
gonna lessen the assault. And as men for us, that
just simply tells us she likes getting to beat So
(27:04):
we just now we have the greenlight just in all
situations mind our business. Right. So it's just really important
for men to have these conversations to educate ourselves, get
off of remote control and stop doing tradition.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
We'll talk about that right after this break. Welcome back
to the our spot. Let's get back to the conversation. Wow, wow, wow, Tony,
you have given us just I'm just I got my
little paper. I'm just going crazy. Thank you for helping
(27:44):
us me and anyone listening. This collective socialization. I've never
heard it crystallized like that. That men are taught women
are of less value, that they're objectified, they become the
property of men, which then humanizes now and that dehumanization
often leads to the violence against women. As women, as
(28:09):
we are dealing with our men, understand that that collective
socialization has put them in a box of domination, power control,
also where they don't ask for help, don't offer help,
and don't accept help, which then leads to all manner
of mental, emotional, and then physical malady. I say, I
(28:33):
say it's arrested development because men are not willing to
be vulnerable or to to you know, acknowledge fears and weaknesses.
They have a rested development. As women, you're saying, when
we want to get into or support our men in
becoming a reimagined version of manhood, that we've got to
(28:57):
be patient. You said that that his disconnect or his
withholding withdrawing is not personal. You said, don't overwhelm him
with questions. If he's speaking or sharing or dumping, don't
overwhelm him. Be grateful for the fact that he's talking
(29:18):
and that he can come back again because maybe now
he experiences you as a safe space. Don't make him wrong.
I added that you didn't say that, but I'm saying that.
Don't make it wrong. Let us learn to respect his
thinking and not be offended that he doesn't understand our
feelings because very often his emotional library, his language, his
(29:43):
voice for sharing that isn't there.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Let me just add one thing to that piece. Then
I don't want the same time to it look to
it to appeal or look like or the experience to
be that. We still don't need to be held accountable
and we've wrong, and that's part of this conversation. We
still need to be accountable is the negotiation of it,
(30:07):
all right, I'm not taking accountability off the table right
where we need to be accountable as men. We need
to be accountable. At a call to men, we talk
about reaching in and grabbing the hearts of men, ohn right,
and that we can have accountable conversations that can also
be loving and kind and respectful. And that's how we
(30:29):
go about engaging men. It's very important to us that
whether we have whole day or one hour or thirty minutes,
that men leave our presence thinking and feeling differently than
they did when they entered. And that means grabbing the
hearts of men. But we know that it could be
a long journey from the head to the heart with
(30:52):
a lot of roadblocks and detours and obstacles, and we
know that to be true, right, But that's the work,
that's where change happens for us is at the heart
is about transformation, not transaction. Men live in transactions, but
here women do transformation much better. But that's what we're
(31:12):
talking about here, about transformation. How do you help him
in that space of transformation?
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Tony Parter, author, educator, activists committed to creating gender and
racial equality, committed to reimagining manhood. What's the final call
you'd like to put out to men right here? That's
my first question. My second question is how can I
(31:43):
support you so?
Speaker 2 (31:45):
And I appreciate that, and I can answer both of
those questions in one voice as in the name of
a call to men. We want men to join us.
We want men to join this effort, to join this movement,
to become part of solution and ending this epidemic of
violence against women and girls. And we are not just
ending in epidemical violence against women and girls, also promoting healthy,
(32:09):
respectful manhood. Remember that this collective socialization, also known as
the manbox is not only forcing epidemical violence against women
and girls, it's killing us as men too. So I
want to ask men, you know, just reach out to us.
We want everything social media call to men. Our website
(32:30):
is to call Themen dot org. There's tons of information there.
It's all free right, you can download it, you can
make use of it is there for you to take
and become part of the solution. And my dear sister,
you're doing that work right now by having me on
your show and then introducing me to your audience of
(32:52):
follow us. Is no more than that, can we ask?
So sisters and sisters been doing it all along. They've
been at the forefront of a call to men. When
you think about how organization you might think as all
men know is half men and half women, and women
are very much in leadership at a call to men
and helping the guide this process. And so we appreciate
(33:16):
you and your contribution to it as well. Have always
been a big fan of yours and uh so just
an on and the privilege to be in your presence
and have this opportunity to chat with you.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Thank you. I'm going to send them a Call to
Men dot org A call to men dot org. If
you are a mother, if you are a man, if
your father, let's reimagine manhood, eliminate remote control manhood. And
my big concern is it's killing men. You know the
(33:53):
number instances of heart disease, heart attack, suicide, prostate cancer,
it's raising and I know nothing happens in a body
that doesn't first happen in the mind and heart. Thank
you for being with me, Tony Porter. If you're a mother,
if your sister, if you're a wife, go to the website,
find out what you need and make sure that all
(34:16):
the men in your life that they have access to it,
because we've got to get them in the space. We've
got to get them in the space so that we
don't lose them and that we can begin to neutralize
this collective socialization. I hope you got some notes. I
hope that you heard something. I hope that you listen
(34:37):
again and again. I hope that you let your sister
friends and your brother friends hear this because here on
the our spot, we are about creating better relationships. So
I'll be back next week. In the meantime, I want
you to stay in peace and not in pieces.
Speaker 4 (34:57):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
The r Spot is a production of Shondaland Audio in
partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Host
Iyanla Vanzant
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