October 30, 2024 • 36 mins
Welcome back to part two of Iyanla's conversation with Dr. Kris Marsh! This week, they're opening up the conversation and taking questions from the IG live audience. They get into everything from how to redefine family to the financial penalty of being single. Plus, we hear why living trusts and wills are a must-have.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
I am a Yamler, your host for this journey. I
was a hopeless love aholic but just could not get
my love to work. Then, after a series of heartbreaks
and deep heartache, I finally got clear about what love
is and what it is not. I want to share
(00:22):
some of what I've learned about lover a holism. Welcome
to the R Spot, a production of shandaland Audio in
partnership with iHeartRadio. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to the Our Spot,
(00:48):
the place we come to discuss all things relationship. That's
the R in our Spot. I am a Yamla, your host,
your God, your friend on this journey through life and relationships,
whether you're joining us for the first time or whether
you're a long time listener. Today we are continuing our
(01:10):
conversation with doctor Chris Marsh. She's the author of the
book The Love Jones Cohort, Single and Living Alone in
the Black middle Class, and we know there's a lot
of that going on. Last week we focused on the
single hood aspect of her work and why you really
(01:31):
do need to stop asking us why are you single?
Maybe the real question is why are you married? This week,
we're going to be taking questions from the audience and
getting into the financial side of relationships along with the
benefits of family and the structural or social forces that
(01:54):
can limit the dating pool. Take a listen for you
just tuning in this as the Arts Live. My guest
today is doctor Chris Marsh and we are talking about
single and middle class, being single, in the middle class,
being in the middle class and being single. Is it you?
(02:14):
What do you do? Okay? So this is what I
want you all to do. Put your questions in the
chat and doctor Marsh and I will tackle them for you.
Doctor Marsh is a professor at the University of America.
Now you said you're a denographer. What is that word?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
So I'm a demographer. So I looked at demographic trends.
I look at like fertility, immortality, migration, immigration, and I
build statistical models to understand that trends over time. It
sounds boring, but I promise you it's really really not.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
And in some ways I give some.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Tables and some numbers in the book, but I also
talk to people. I talk to sixty five people and
that are single and living alone. So besides having like
the numbers, I also put like metaphorical meat on the
numeric bone when we understand this demographic trends. So I
just look at demographic trends over time.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Okay, I'm going to read some of these things that
are coming sipping tea with Steph. He needs the salary
and the intelligence to roll with me. Okay, what does
that mean? Intelligence? What does that mean? Does that mean
he has to be educated or he has to have
a good conversation. I don't know. Why is it always
(03:25):
about the middle class help the poor? Well, we're not
leaving the poor. This is one book, one topic. Oh
my god, Okay, here we go. Let me get a question.
I'm questioned out. Scroll up. Middle class people can't even
buy homes anymore? Is that true? See, let me tell
you something. Go ahead, go ahead, doctor marsh.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah, no, yes, we have to unsay. It's hard out
here in the streets from middle class folks. It really
really is, which I think is the perfect conversation to
have for this podcast because we're talking about relationships.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
One of the things I argue in the book.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Is that that we consider how we define family and
should we redefine family.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
So if we think of the Census Bureau's.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Definition, So I'm a demographer. You look at national data.
Census Bureau in some ways can be the gold standard
of data. If we look at the Census Bureau definition
of family, family as someone that you're related to by blood,
marriage or adoption. So because I, Chris Marsh, I'm single,
living alone and don't have any children, I don't show
up in the census data as a family.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Why I show up in the census data as a household?
Let me tell you.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Where that's a problem for me, Because there's you have
to think about, like there's benefits to being considered a
family versus a household. I'm gonna give you three quick
examples and you'll understand these. One my Verizon cell phone,
I want to get a discount. I'll want that family
discount on my one cell phone from Verizon. Now that's
a kind of a benign example. A slightly more egregious
example would be.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Going on vacation.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Single occupancy is more expensive than double occupancy. Now, the
one that everybody can wrap their mind around on this
call and going to shake their head to is thinking
about the tax structure. A single hood penalty is built
into the tax structure. And so I have a dearest girlfriend,
her son. My god son passed away, her husband passed away.
(05:18):
Why can't her and I be considered a family.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
And I can.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Get the benefits of being able of helping my god
daughter for like college or stuff like that. Why can't
we be considered a family. So I do think the
definition of family is too narrow, and we need to
expand the definition of family to include these non romantic,
nurturing relationships him.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
At the end of the day, I.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Don't really care if you change the word family. I
do care that everybody gets the benefit of a family.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Okay, all right, here's a question for you. How do
I step out of my comfort zone to meet someone.
I tend to become shy when I see a nice
guy and I don't know how to approach him. Okay,
that they'll have nothing to do with middle class, black
single none of none of what we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Oh, I don't give him. I'm not the advice person. However,
what I will say, Listen, every time I go to
the airport, I mean, somebody, take yourself to the airport.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
I didn't say you have to go. I did say,
take yourself to the airport, get dressed up, go to airport.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
I guarantee you mean somebody, but I don't.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
But I don't give advice. But I don't give it vice.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Now, you know I said this years ago, and somebody
jumped all over me. You know where I attract men
all the time in the home depot, in the home depot,
and I know he's working on gout of business. And
I go and I just and they'll come over and
help me. And then and then they want to name
(06:47):
and the number. But once they recognize it's me, then
they then they just lose it. Okay, all right? Love
thinking about what family means? Good good, good, good good.
Here's a good one. Do you believe a marriage from
two different classes? I guess that's middle class and upper class,
middle class and working class. I guess that's what they mean.
(07:12):
Do you believe a marriage from two different classes can
be successful? Absolutely? Yeah, absolutely, I don't care what kind
of class you got, right, it's the love, it's the people,
it's the heart.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
The only thing I just want to and I don't.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
I don't want to put a value judgement and whatever
works for you, but I just want to be clear
kind of what the data kind of suggests, what the
social science literature suggests typically we married people in our orbit,
and typically you married somebody does have the same education,
the same kind of like background. But that doesn't mean
if you marror somebody outside that background, it won't be successful.
It is typically it's people that you're in close proximity to.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Okay, here's another one. Is it just me? Are there
statistics on the constant struggle to maintain yourself as middle class?
Are these statistics on that?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yes, So there's a good conversation about like whether or
not there's downward mobility. If you are middle class, will
your children be middle class too? Where there'll be like
a downward mobility that happens.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
And if we don't.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
And that's one of the reasons why when I talk
about middle class, I always want to include a wealth
measure because when a global pandemic hits and the world
stops on its axes and some of us may not
go back to work, do we have assets that we
can draw from?
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Not a value statement, but.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I got to understand when we think about that, these
wealth disparities that exist in America, do we have assets
that we can draw from? So it's if you don't
have assets or something to draw from. It's going to
be harder for the next generation. So you could actually
drop out of middle class datus. The generation behind you
can definitely drop out of middle class datus, and or
you could maintain it, or you might get some upward
(08:49):
mobility and like be considered upper middle class. And I
talk about some of that in the book as well.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Somebody is on their way to the airport and the
other person said, I met my husband at the home deeper.
Let me ask you a question. Let's go back into
that middle class again for just a moment. Are there
distinctions or differences or different challenges if you're thirty in
(09:15):
the middle class, forty in the middle class, fifty in
the middle class, because someone here said they were, they're
fifty five, they were married for twenty years, now they're
single again. So does your dating or does your singleness
shift or change based on your age? Does that question
make sense? I think it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Yes, So I'm going to I'm going to answer that
question in two kind of ways. So one of the
questions I asked I asked about, like, who's more stigmatized
younger folks when you're single, younger folks or older folks
when you're a male or when you're a female.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
And I didn't.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
I only had those two groups in the cohort and
a lot of the respondents. It was so interesting because
even I, as a scholar, couldn't figure out who was
more stigmatized, younger folks or older folks, men versus women.
And it was really interesting when you talked about like
younger folks, and when the respondents talked about younger folks
being single, they talked about how.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
If you were.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Single younger, something must be wrong with you because you
have a bigger pool.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
As you get older, your dating pool has died off.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yes, that's right, right, so.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
The numbers aren't the same, so they look at you differently.
And I was like, that's baffling to me. I've never
even really thought about that. And it's like, if you're.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
A man in your single they're looking at you a
certain kind of way. If you're a woman and single,
look at you a certain kind of way. So I
couldn't figure out, like who's more stigmatized. But here's the thing.
The common denominators that being single, you're still stigmatized and
people still think something's wrong with you. So I when
I answer that that question that way, I also want
to kind of draw from, like some of the social
science literature, and one of the things that's really interesting
(10:48):
is that people that have never been married long term singles,
the data is kind of clear. We tend to be
happier as we age. Part of the reason why we
tend to be happier is because we've built a network
of friends. We have people that we can go to
church with, that we can go golfing with, that we
can use profanity with. I love profanity on a good day,
(11:09):
and people that we can go traveling with. So we've
built a whole network. You have a lot of people
like the person that just asked the question, who is
returning to single, And because they're returning to single, they
may have But I'm not saying that's the case for
the person that asked the question. But a lot of
times when you're married, you put all of your eggs
in the married basket and you don't cultivate those other relationships.
(11:30):
So you think, like, you know, this is a person
you're going to have for the rest of your life,
and your.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Soul to bill of goods, like you know, you're got
to live all the.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Rest of your life this person, but you find yourself
coming back single. So I would say that it's important
that we cultivate these other relationships beyond just the marriage relationship. Again,
that's why I am just so enamored with the show,
because it's not simply about just married relationships. It really
is thinking about how we need to cultivate these other relationships.
(11:55):
As a side note, real quick, there's also some data
that's suggesting that parts are leaving their partners when they
get sick. Your friends will be there for you, your
partner may or may not be there for you. I
have a dear girlfriend. If she hears it in my throat,
I'm a little sick. There's gonna be like the Trilogy, right,
there's going to be salted crackers. There's going to be
(12:17):
seven up and they're going to bed sick.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Some kind of suit my door, as opposed.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
To some booth thing. It's like, well, baby, cash at
me some money and I'm gonna go to the store.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
I'd be like, listen, somebody is asking a question. Kimberly
Wright is asking this question. She said her and her
husband rented a house for seventeen years. They bought a
house in twenty nineteen, and because he is the breadwinner,
the lone is in his name, but she's on the deed.
(12:50):
What does she need to do to be safe in
that arrangement? Now, I think that's a legal question, but
it is a question when you marry into or couple
into the middle class and your namemate and on none
of the paperwork, that's a problem. And I know that
as a lawyer, I've seen that. I've seen people who
(13:13):
marry into a relationship or go into a relationship. I've
had cases where they've been together twenty five thirty years
but weren't married. He dies and the ex wife or
the kids come in and swoop up everything. So what
do you think about prenups in middle class We'll talk
(13:38):
about that.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
When we come back.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Welcome back to the R Spot. My guest today is
doctor Chris Marsh. We are here on the R Spot
and we are live on Instagram talking about doctor Marsha's
book The Love Jones Cohort being single and middle class
and living alone in America. What is it that you
was saying, Doctor Marsh.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Actually a few of the respondents actually talked about pring ups,
and again I'm about it.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
If you about it. I'm about it. I don't judge you.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Whatever works for you, and I really don't care. But
if that's what y'all agree upon, that's what y'all agree upon.
I think it's so unfortunately allow outside circumstances or outside
noise to determine what works best for us.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
But similar comment that I have similar conversation in the book.
I think it's chapter seven.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
It's about wealth and one of the things that's really
really clear, people don't have estate planning, especially when you're
talking about black folks. Prince John Singleton and Aretha the
Queen of Soul did not have a live a will
or living trust. If you are single, we talk about
it in the book. You need to make sure you
(14:49):
have a will and a living trust. I don't care
how little you have. I don't care how much you have,
but you worked for whatever you have. Especially for those
that are single, you want to make sure that you
have a will or living trust and you know exactly
where your assets are going to go.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
And again, yeah, I say a little or how much,
that's right. Have a will or a living trust, whether
you're even if you're married, have it, because you give
away you lose so much when you die into state
and it can be a hot mess if you have
(15:22):
a house, even a car, even a car. Please please please,
I'm gonna find me two lawyers or two friends. We're
gonna do a class on why you need a will
and why you need some life insurance.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
You know, it's funny.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
I won't tell you the name of the company, but
they I wrote the book, and they reached out to
me and they're like, we really appreciate this conversation about
like singles, because think about it, when you look like
a state planninger, you look like wealth management commercials. You
have same sex couples, you have interracial couples, you even
have single parents. Where's the single person?
Speaker 3 (15:53):
You don't see them in the commercials.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
And so they reached out to me. They're like, this
is a really great conversation. How can we tap into
this market? And they just felt very explore And I
was like, I'm not trying. You're not trying to use
me to exploit this group of people, but I think,
you know, use your wisdom, find a group, a group
that's really supportive of you, and maybe we put something
together and we talk to these singles and we have
them put their estate plans together.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah, really, really really, particularly if you are single and
middle class and you own the house, you own a condo,
please please have a will. You can do it the
ninety nine dollar will on legal Zoom. But that is
so so important, and particularly the young people. You know,
my daughter died at thirty one. She owned a house
and she had a will. Okay, so it's very very
(16:37):
important in our culture as people of color, black, brown,
we do the family thing and we pass stuff on.
But you we live in the society where everything you
know is black and white on paper. So I think
you we need to do.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yes, yes, I talk of the book. I think about
how like my father wrote something on the back of
a napkin. I was like, this is what we knocking
ready to do. We're not gonna have this written on
the back of a napkin and was putting your safety
to deposit box, and we're going.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
To go through best legal documents and let's go ahead
and do that. Let's just go ahead and do that.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Point Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. My grandma Steve buried his
money back in the day. My grandmother did too. She
kept it in the freezer. My grandmother wrapped her little
dollar's up and put him in the freezer. Okay, here
it is. Yeah, I'm a van Zain. Can we do
a talk on protecting our assets. I'm a single woman
with a new home. I don't have any documented for
(17:33):
my only child if something happens to me. Okay, doctor March,
she need to be on that right, come on tell
her Tella Tella.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yes, like absolutely, I hope that we do do a show.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
But I think that we need to have legal documents
in a place and never You're never too young, and
you're never too old, and I don't care how little
you have or how much you have, you've worked hard
for it.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Put a legal document in place so people.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Know exactly what you want to happen if something were
to happen to you.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, I've got it written down on paper and from
my typewriter, and I have a legal will, and I
got a folder in the thing that say this is
what I want. Don't be messing with me and don't
have me laying around for fifty two days weeping and wailing.
Get in, get out, put me in the box, because
I don't know where I'm going and I want to
get there on time. Okay, somebody says, yeah, somebody has
(18:26):
a very good question, Uh, doctor marsh. They want to know,
how do you define wealth? I think that's a good
thing because just a little money in the bank that's
not wealth. How are you defining wealth?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Right? It's really funny because I was having a conversation
with a student about whether or not they're rich or
whether they're now in the NFL, whether or not they're rich,
or whether or not they're wealthy. If you have a
whole bunch of money in your account, you're checking account,
you would be considered rich. But wealth is when you
have assets that are building wealth for you. Because all
(19:00):
this money in this account goes, you can draw from
this asset and you can still live. So I talk
about wealth, it's some kind of asset. In most cases,
our biggest asset is going to be our house. Yeah,
But in some cases you have, especially in Black America,
you have like entrepreneurs, so you have businesses. Some people
have gold and precious metals. I ain't there yet, but
I'd love to get there one day. And so do
(19:22):
you think of this assets that's what makes you wealthy?
But just having a bank account with six figures doesn't
make you wealthy, that just makes you rich.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Yeah. Yeah, that is so so very important because I
am not rich, but I am wealthy. I am wealthy
because I have a lot of catalog of publications that
the minute I take my last breath, everybody going to
be running to buy my book. Okay, all right, and
I ain't even here. They going to be making money.
(19:50):
So I have to manifest my wealth. Somebody said they
were married for I can't remember how many years, and
their husband passed and he didn't have a a will. Well,
you know, that's that's important.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
I mean, we really can't say it enough, but we
really can't stress it enough. It's something to think about,
and I think, but I also think, what's the issue.
This came up on the book a little bit. We
have to think about the history of black Americans in particular,
and how we don't trust these institutions, and how we're
afraid to go ahead and do these living trusts and
these wills and so on and so forth. But we've
(20:24):
got to kind of move past that and understand that
we want to make sure people that are coming behind us,
our meeces, our nephews, are god children.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Whoever may be they're set up well, So please think.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
About trying to engage these institutions and put these living
trusts and wills together.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Yes. Now, another big conversation that I've heard lately, Dr
marsh is generational wealth. Yes, if you're single and middle class,
meaning you've got some assets, you've got some wealth. How
do we build generational wealth? How do we do that?
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Okay, so that's like a super duper great question to
the kind of conversation we were having earlier. We have
to think about it. If something happened to me, So
I've got a couple of assets. If something happens to me,
who was it going to go to. It's going to
go to the next generation. I don't have children, so
it's not going to go to my children, but it's
going to go to my god daughter.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
I'll give us some stuff to my students. I love
my students.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
I am only a professor because I admire and adore
my students. The day they get on my nerves, I'm
leaving being a professor and doing something completely different. So
we need to think about how our assets can hopefully
help the next generation. I want to complicate this conversation
just a bit though, and I want.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
You to stay with me. It was funny because I
did something for b ET a little while ago.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
And you know, you do a two hour interview, they
put a thirty minute snippet up on social media and
so they heard me say like, well, if you want
to improve marriage rates for Black Americans, pay Black Americans reparations.
So here's the conversation that I have in the book.
And I think that this is important, So just stay
with me for a second. There's a huge generational wealth
(21:56):
gap that existed an American and I don't think it's
going to be closed on the individual level.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
It has to have federal intervention.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
And the way that we close this wealth gap is
to pay reparations to Black Americans. To do anything less
than that and put the onus only on the individual
to close the wealth gap. When this is a federal process,
there are federal laws in place that built it is
short sighted and that's a heavy burden that Black Americans
(22:25):
have to carry. Now, I don't care where you sit
in that conversation. I don't care where you sit with reparations.
All I'm asking you to do is to sit in
the conversation and see where you fit in that conversation.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, well, I'm not even going to touch that with
a ten foot poll. Them reparations, I cannot, I cannot.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Not everybody wants to have the conversation. People just don't
want to have a conversation.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
But I'm just like, it's it's a conversation that we
need to have for a variety of reasons. But we're
gonna talk. Let's talk about our relationship with reparations.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
That's the point. So that's the point.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Though I do believe that you were to pay Black
Americans reparations, the.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Marriage rates might change.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
You might see an increase of black folks getting married
because we have access to capital now, and because we
have access to capital, we have people that are looking
like us, doing things and building.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Things, and now we're more likely to partner or to marry.
It is my argument, that is my theory.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
The only way we got it, the only way my
theory could we know if it works.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Or not is to pay us preparations and see what happens.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Well, you know, in terms of old reparation, the concept
forty acres and the mule. Now, I don't want no donkey,
I don't want him. I don't want the donkey. I
don't want him. But you know what, for me in
this day and age, I didn't educate my children. I
didn't educate my children. I was a young single mom
growing up. So my commitment in life was to educate
(23:53):
my grandchildren. Reparations for me would be that my grandchildren
could go to college for free. Reparations for me would
be that, you know, there's a fun that my grandkids
could go to to get a home. You know how
much would forty acres cost today in the middle class neighborhood.
(24:16):
Will let that be my grandchildren's down payment on their home.
So it doesn't have to be for me today forty
acres and the mule. But how can we construct those
reparations in a way that would be conducive to my
needs today? I don't need. I got rabbits and fox
(24:36):
and two dogs and the squirrels. The squirrels. That's driving
me crazy, But you know it's so I think that
to broaden it, that concept of what reparations would be today,
and I think it would support because I know someone
been in relationship for twenty years and haven't been haven't
(24:59):
gotten married, because he's an artist and you know, his
income is up and down, and he says, I can't
marry a woman if I can't buy a house, and
I can't do that. And literally he's never been married
and he's a he and he's middle income middle I
would consider middle class even though he doesn't own the house.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Yeah, can you be middle.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Class and not own a home?
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Okay? So yes you can.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
The definition that I use in some of my quantitative work,
not in the book, but some of my work that
builds up to the book, you had to also have
a home to be considered middle class. You had to
have educate some kind of higher education. You had to
be like you had to be like a professional managerial position.
You had to have income that was above the threshold
(25:50):
I can't remember what the threshold was for median households.
And then you also had to own a home. Part
of the reason again, why I wanted to do that
because in the literature it talks about the fragility of
the black middle class, that black Americans are one or
two paychecks away from poverty, especially when you.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Don't have the assets.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
So I'm trying to argue that there's this new demographic
group that exists. So I use the strictest measures possible
to define middle class, and everybody says, well, if you
would have relaxed the standards for a home ownership, would
it have increased the group? Actually, education having a bachelor's degree.
The thirty three percent of the US population have a
bachelor's degree, I.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Think almost I talk about in the book.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
I think maybe seventy percent of people own homes or
stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
I can't remember the number.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
So it's actually education was the hardest variable to load
on being middle class.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
It actually wasn't owing a home or not really.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Yeah, we'll talk about that when we come back. So
my bachelor's degree serves absolutely no purpose. Well, none of
my degree serves no purpose. My law degree, you don't
serve no purpose. My master's degree does serve a purpose.
(27:04):
My master's because my master's degree is in spiritual psychology.
So I do use that.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
But those variables, again, I'm not trying to I know
people might suggest those variables are elitists, but I have
to understand, I'm trying to establish this group in the
social science literature. So I had to use what other
measures were used in the past to say this group
is here. That's why I use those measures. I don't
adhere to those measures. It's what I'm trying to do
to say, I'm using your own measures, your own measurements,
(27:33):
to say, this group is here, and let's have more
conversations about people that are single and living alone. But
I also think like part of the conversation too, is
that there's an emergence of scholarship being written on singles.
And I say in the preface of the book, I
say that this really is a love letter to Black
women in a lot of ways, because whether or not
(27:53):
it's an adaptation, we had to do it or we
chose to do it. Black women have been doing singlehood
for a very long time, and we are showing the world. Yeah,
we're showing Americans, we are showing the world. We are
showing other racial and ethnic groups how to do this.
So what you're not too ready to do is make
this a face that doesn't look like me, because it
has been we have shown other people how to do it.
(28:13):
So that's another reason why I want to write the book,
to say, you know, let's get black women their flowers.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yeah, and black women who are working hard and who
are making the choice to be single. I want more
of us to make that choice from our souls and
not from disappointment, not from disappointment that past relationships didn't work.
And also to look at all of the things that
(28:38):
you've said. When we accumulate wealth, how do we pass
it on to other members of our family? Understanding that
wealth isn't about money, it's also about assets, you know,
to start doing little investments that we can. I have
a home that I live in, but black women, as
(28:59):
a black women, want to really acquire. I like land.
I want land and property. That's that's my thing. I
don't need cars and boats and all of that. I
want some land because when the stuff go left, I
want to be able to go out there and plant
me some tomatoes and some string beans. So my thing
is land. Doctor marsh is the author of the Love
(29:22):
Jones cohort. Being single and living alone and the middle class?
What do you want to leave our listeners with? I
thank all of you for tuning in today. Somebody said
I'm tired of paying bills alone. We'll stop making them.
If you don't want to pay them, don't make no bills.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Don't but please do not get married.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Justin can find somebody or partner or Jesse can find
somebody to pay your bill.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Okay, but you know how many people are doing that.
That's a whole other conversation. About the women who say
I want a partner that makes two fifty two, three
hundred thousand dollars and they ain't even got a college degree.
That's a whole number conversation. What do you want us
to know about being single, being middle class in the
new world, in the New Age.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Well, the first thing I wanted to say is, please
go and buy the book.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
The Love Jones Cohort.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Yeah, the Love Joe's Cohort signal I living Alone in
the Black middle class. You can find them on most bookstores.
I also have an audiobook, so you can read the
audio book. Please let me know when about what you
think when you read the book. There's two things I
want to say about reading the book. It is an
academic book, so the introduction in chapter one are theoretically dense.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
If that's not you get down and you don't.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Appreciate that, just skip on to chapter two and read
the stuff from chapter two on. I wrote the book,
and I try to flip through the first chapter, so
that's not I'm not really a theoretical person. But buy
the book, read it to the very end. Read the
appendencies because I mean the afterword, because there's some really
juicy stuff in the afterword. Also, when you read the book,
be sure and read the footnotes because I am a
(30:57):
black woman who is an academic, and so there's so
certain things that I couldn't say in the book because
my editor was like, doctor marsh you go off on
a tangent.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
Can you can you imagine him saying that?
Speaker 2 (31:05):
But okay, if you go off on a tangent, put
stuff in the footnotes. And he's like, but keep the
footnotes to a bare minimum. I have one hundred and
twenty footnotes because I have stuff that I want to say.
Let me just give a golden nugy about one footnote.
Then what's something I wanting to leave you with?
Speaker 3 (31:17):
In the book, we talked about like black middle class
identity and what that means being middle class and so
on and so forth. So the respondents talked about W. E. B.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Du Bois and this idea of the talented tenth basic sense. W. E. B.
Du boys was a sociologist, well known cyciologist, and he
said ten percent of black America are going to help
improve all of the ninety percent of black America. He
pushed back against his own idea. Here's what's really interesting
about that. I had to be sensitive to the data.
(31:45):
The respondents talked about W. E. B.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Du Boys, so I had to talk about him in
the book.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
But I put a footnote because what people very rarely
know is that there was another scholar at the exact
same time who was writing as W. E. B. Du Boys,
and this scholar was suggesting, if you would improve the
life chances of black women, you'll improve the life chances
of everybody. But her work was not getting published. Her
name was Anna Julia Cooper, one of the first black
(32:13):
women in the country to have a PhD. Part of
the reason why her work wasn't getting published is because
they were gatekeepers that prevented her work from getting published.
One of the gatekeepers was W. E. B.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
The argument is is that he actually plagiarized her stuff
later on in life. I, as a black woman and
an academic, will not write a book where Anna Julia
Cooper is not somewhere in my book. So if you
don't read the footnotes, you missed out on that wonderful
kind of conversation.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Okay, so what do I want to leave you with?
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Oh my gosh, there's so many things that we could
talk about.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
If there was one thing that I wanted to leave
you with.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
I think, like I said before.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
It's important for us to de stigmatize single hood.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
I don't want you to get in.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I don't want you to stay in relationships that are abusive, toxic, unfulfilling,
and unrewarding simply because you don't want to hold the
title of single. I also want you to think about
whether or not the singleness is based on individual behavior
or are there like structural forces that actually constrain your
dating market and that's why you're single. I think when
(33:22):
we leave it at the individual conversation, women in particular
are like, what was me?
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Something's wrong with me. I'm not fast enough, I'm not
praying enough.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
I'm not thin enough, I'm not thick enough, I'm not
dark enough, I'm.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Not light enough.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Let's step back and think about how like structure, how
society might play into this conversation. And when we do that,
it allows us to have a more positive relationship with ourselves,
which is really, really, really important.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Yeah, and if you are single, and if you do
have assets or wealth, make it a choice. You know,
because the one thing I found very interesting you said
you defined middle class as the people who were considered
that they've done everything right. They've got the good job,
(34:11):
they've got the good education, blah blah blah, and a
partner may be one of the rewards for doing the
right things. And it's really not, I really hear on
the R spot, I talk about building your relationship with yourself.
Celebrate the fact that you did get the education, that
you do have, the home, that you do have a
(34:32):
few little ducats that you can spend on your nieces
and your nephews and your grandma, and feel good about that.
One of the things, you know, one of the ways
that I stay single because I you know, I have
a natural. When I was growing up, guys never said
to me that I was pretty. They never told me
I was pretty. I was always sexy. I was always sexy.
(34:56):
So I have this thing, and you know, when I'm
on the prow I know where I know where to
put the perfume on my body so that you know
I'm sending out those vibes. I know which button the button.
I know which shoes to wear, so since I'm single
about choice, I don't put no perfume on them places letter.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
I say, celebrate you, right, I say, put that perfume
off for yourself.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
Put them shoes off for yourself, nurturing.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
I have my shoes and my and my push up
bra that I do for me. But when I have
that on, that's for me. But when I'm on the prowl,
I got a whole another, a whole nother way of being.
Doctor marsh Thank you so much for joining us, and
thank you to all of you out there for tuning
(35:53):
into the Art Spot today and every week. Whether it
be where to pick up a man and I'm telling
you don't sleep on the home depot, some real cuties there,
or if you want to know how to define wealth.
I hope you really learn something today that you didn't
know before. Be sure to join us next week for
(36:16):
our season finale. That's right. Time flies when you're learning
a lot. In the meantime, stay in peace and not
in pieces. Fine. The R Spot is a production of
Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from
(36:38):
Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
I am a Yamler, your host for this journey. I
was a hopeless love aholic but just could not get
my love to work. Then, after a series of heartbreaks
and deep heartache, I finally got clear about what love
is and what it is not. I want to share
(00:22):
some of what I've learned about lover a holism. Welcome
to the R Spot, a production of shandaland Audio in
partnership with iHeartRadio. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to the Our Spot,
(00:48):
the place we come to discuss all things relationship. That's
the R in our Spot. I am a Yamla, your host,
your God, your friend on this journey through life and relationships,
whether you're joining us for the first time or whether
you're a long time listener. Today we are continuing our
(01:10):
conversation with doctor Chris Marsh. She's the author of the
book The Love Jones Cohort, Single and Living Alone in
the Black middle Class, and we know there's a lot
of that going on. Last week we focused on the
single hood aspect of her work and why you really
(01:31):
do need to stop asking us why are you single?
Maybe the real question is why are you married? This week,
we're going to be taking questions from the audience and
getting into the financial side of relationships along with the
benefits of family and the structural or social forces that
(01:54):
can limit the dating pool. Take a listen for you
just tuning in this as the Arts Live. My guest
today is doctor Chris Marsh and we are talking about
single and middle class, being single, in the middle class,
being in the middle class and being single. Is it you?
(02:14):
What do you do? Okay? So this is what I
want you all to do. Put your questions in the
chat and doctor Marsh and I will tackle them for you.
Doctor Marsh is a professor at the University of America.
Now you said you're a denographer. What is that word?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
So I'm a demographer. So I looked at demographic trends.
I look at like fertility, immortality, migration, immigration, and I
build statistical models to understand that trends over time. It
sounds boring, but I promise you it's really really not.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
And in some ways I give some.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Tables and some numbers in the book, but I also
talk to people. I talk to sixty five people and
that are single and living alone. So besides having like
the numbers, I also put like metaphorical meat on the
numeric bone when we understand this demographic trends. So I
just look at demographic trends over time.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Okay, I'm going to read some of these things that
are coming sipping tea with Steph. He needs the salary
and the intelligence to roll with me. Okay, what does
that mean? Intelligence? What does that mean? Does that mean
he has to be educated or he has to have
a good conversation. I don't know. Why is it always
(03:25):
about the middle class help the poor? Well, we're not
leaving the poor. This is one book, one topic. Oh
my god, Okay, here we go. Let me get a question.
I'm questioned out. Scroll up. Middle class people can't even
buy homes anymore? Is that true? See, let me tell
you something. Go ahead, go ahead, doctor marsh.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah, no, yes, we have to unsay. It's hard out
here in the streets from middle class folks. It really
really is, which I think is the perfect conversation to
have for this podcast because we're talking about relationships.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
One of the things I argue in the book.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Is that that we consider how we define family and
should we redefine family.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
So if we think of the Census Bureau's.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Definition, So I'm a demographer. You look at national data.
Census Bureau in some ways can be the gold standard
of data. If we look at the Census Bureau definition
of family, family as someone that you're related to by blood,
marriage or adoption. So because I, Chris Marsh, I'm single,
living alone and don't have any children, I don't show
up in the census data as a family.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Why I show up in the census data as a household?
Let me tell you.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Where that's a problem for me, Because there's you have
to think about, like there's benefits to being considered a
family versus a household. I'm gonna give you three quick
examples and you'll understand these. One my Verizon cell phone,
I want to get a discount. I'll want that family
discount on my one cell phone from Verizon. Now that's
a kind of a benign example. A slightly more egregious
example would be.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Going on vacation.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Single occupancy is more expensive than double occupancy. Now, the
one that everybody can wrap their mind around on this
call and going to shake their head to is thinking
about the tax structure. A single hood penalty is built
into the tax structure. And so I have a dearest girlfriend,
her son. My god son passed away, her husband passed away.
(05:18):
Why can't her and I be considered a family.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
And I can.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Get the benefits of being able of helping my god
daughter for like college or stuff like that. Why can't
we be considered a family. So I do think the
definition of family is too narrow, and we need to
expand the definition of family to include these non romantic,
nurturing relationships him.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
At the end of the day, I.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Don't really care if you change the word family. I
do care that everybody gets the benefit of a family.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Okay, all right, here's a question for you. How do
I step out of my comfort zone to meet someone.
I tend to become shy when I see a nice
guy and I don't know how to approach him. Okay,
that they'll have nothing to do with middle class, black
single none of none of what we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Oh, I don't give him. I'm not the advice person. However,
what I will say, Listen, every time I go to
the airport, I mean, somebody, take yourself to the airport.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
I didn't say you have to go. I did say,
take yourself to the airport, get dressed up, go to airport.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
I guarantee you mean somebody, but I don't.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
But I don't give advice. But I don't give it vice.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Now, you know I said this years ago, and somebody
jumped all over me. You know where I attract men
all the time in the home depot, in the home depot,
and I know he's working on gout of business. And
I go and I just and they'll come over and
help me. And then and then they want to name
(06:47):
and the number. But once they recognize it's me, then
they then they just lose it. Okay, all right? Love
thinking about what family means? Good good, good, good good.
Here's a good one. Do you believe a marriage from
two different classes? I guess that's middle class and upper class,
middle class and working class. I guess that's what they mean.
(07:12):
Do you believe a marriage from two different classes can
be successful? Absolutely? Yeah, absolutely, I don't care what kind
of class you got, right, it's the love, it's the people,
it's the heart.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
The only thing I just want to and I don't.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
I don't want to put a value judgement and whatever
works for you, but I just want to be clear
kind of what the data kind of suggests, what the
social science literature suggests typically we married people in our orbit,
and typically you married somebody does have the same education,
the same kind of like background. But that doesn't mean
if you marror somebody outside that background, it won't be successful.
It is typically it's people that you're in close proximity to.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Okay, here's another one. Is it just me? Are there
statistics on the constant struggle to maintain yourself as middle class?
Are these statistics on that?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yes, So there's a good conversation about like whether or
not there's downward mobility. If you are middle class, will
your children be middle class too? Where there'll be like
a downward mobility that happens.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
And if we don't.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
And that's one of the reasons why when I talk
about middle class, I always want to include a wealth
measure because when a global pandemic hits and the world
stops on its axes and some of us may not
go back to work, do we have assets that we
can draw from?
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Not a value statement, but.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I got to understand when we think about that, these
wealth disparities that exist in America, do we have assets
that we can draw from? So it's if you don't
have assets or something to draw from. It's going to
be harder for the next generation. So you could actually
drop out of middle class datus. The generation behind you
can definitely drop out of middle class datus, and or
you could maintain it, or you might get some upward
(08:49):
mobility and like be considered upper middle class. And I
talk about some of that in the book as well.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Somebody is on their way to the airport and the
other person said, I met my husband at the home deeper.
Let me ask you a question. Let's go back into
that middle class again for just a moment. Are there
distinctions or differences or different challenges if you're thirty in
(09:15):
the middle class, forty in the middle class, fifty in
the middle class, because someone here said they were, they're
fifty five, they were married for twenty years, now they're
single again. So does your dating or does your singleness
shift or change based on your age? Does that question
make sense? I think it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Yes, So I'm going to I'm going to answer that
question in two kind of ways. So one of the
questions I asked I asked about, like, who's more stigmatized
younger folks when you're single, younger folks or older folks
when you're a male or when you're a female.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
And I didn't.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
I only had those two groups in the cohort and
a lot of the respondents. It was so interesting because
even I, as a scholar, couldn't figure out who was
more stigmatized, younger folks or older folks, men versus women.
And it was really interesting when you talked about like
younger folks, and when the respondents talked about younger folks
being single, they talked about how.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
If you were.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Single younger, something must be wrong with you because you
have a bigger pool.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
As you get older, your dating pool has died off.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yes, that's right, right, so.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
The numbers aren't the same, so they look at you differently.
And I was like, that's baffling to me. I've never
even really thought about that. And it's like, if you're.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
A man in your single they're looking at you a
certain kind of way. If you're a woman and single,
look at you a certain kind of way. So I
couldn't figure out, like who's more stigmatized. But here's the thing.
The common denominators that being single, you're still stigmatized and
people still think something's wrong with you. So I when
I answer that that question that way, I also want
to kind of draw from, like some of the social
science literature, and one of the things that's really interesting
(10:48):
is that people that have never been married long term singles,
the data is kind of clear. We tend to be
happier as we age. Part of the reason why we
tend to be happier is because we've built a network
of friends. We have people that we can go to
church with, that we can go golfing with, that we
can use profanity with. I love profanity on a good day,
(11:09):
and people that we can go traveling with. So we've
built a whole network. You have a lot of people
like the person that just asked the question, who is
returning to single, And because they're returning to single, they
may have But I'm not saying that's the case for
the person that asked the question. But a lot of
times when you're married, you put all of your eggs
in the married basket and you don't cultivate those other relationships.
(11:30):
So you think, like, you know, this is a person
you're going to have for the rest of your life,
and your.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Soul to bill of goods, like you know, you're got
to live all the.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Rest of your life this person, but you find yourself
coming back single. So I would say that it's important
that we cultivate these other relationships beyond just the marriage relationship. Again,
that's why I am just so enamored with the show,
because it's not simply about just married relationships. It really
is thinking about how we need to cultivate these other relationships.
(11:55):
As a side note, real quick, there's also some data
that's suggesting that parts are leaving their partners when they
get sick. Your friends will be there for you, your
partner may or may not be there for you. I
have a dear girlfriend. If she hears it in my throat,
I'm a little sick. There's gonna be like the Trilogy, right,
there's going to be salted crackers. There's going to be
(12:17):
seven up and they're going to bed sick.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Some kind of suit my door, as opposed.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
To some booth thing. It's like, well, baby, cash at
me some money and I'm gonna go to the store.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
I'd be like, listen, somebody is asking a question. Kimberly
Wright is asking this question. She said her and her
husband rented a house for seventeen years. They bought a
house in twenty nineteen, and because he is the breadwinner,
the lone is in his name, but she's on the deed.
(12:50):
What does she need to do to be safe in
that arrangement? Now, I think that's a legal question, but
it is a question when you marry into or couple
into the middle class and your namemate and on none
of the paperwork, that's a problem. And I know that
as a lawyer, I've seen that. I've seen people who
(13:13):
marry into a relationship or go into a relationship. I've
had cases where they've been together twenty five thirty years
but weren't married. He dies and the ex wife or
the kids come in and swoop up everything. So what
do you think about prenups in middle class We'll talk
(13:38):
about that.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
When we come back.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Welcome back to the R Spot. My guest today is
doctor Chris Marsh. We are here on the R Spot
and we are live on Instagram talking about doctor Marsha's
book The Love Jones Cohort being single and middle class
and living alone in America. What is it that you
was saying, Doctor Marsh.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Actually a few of the respondents actually talked about pring ups,
and again I'm about it.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
If you about it. I'm about it. I don't judge you.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Whatever works for you, and I really don't care. But
if that's what y'all agree upon, that's what y'all agree upon.
I think it's so unfortunately allow outside circumstances or outside
noise to determine what works best for us.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
But similar comment that I have similar conversation in the book.
I think it's chapter seven.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
It's about wealth and one of the things that's really
really clear, people don't have estate planning, especially when you're
talking about black folks. Prince John Singleton and Aretha the
Queen of Soul did not have a live a will
or living trust. If you are single, we talk about
it in the book. You need to make sure you
(14:49):
have a will and a living trust. I don't care
how little you have. I don't care how much you have,
but you worked for whatever you have. Especially for those
that are single, you want to make sure that you
have a will or living trust and you know exactly
where your assets are going to go.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
And again, yeah, I say a little or how much,
that's right. Have a will or a living trust, whether
you're even if you're married, have it, because you give
away you lose so much when you die into state
and it can be a hot mess if you have
(15:22):
a house, even a car, even a car. Please please please,
I'm gonna find me two lawyers or two friends. We're
gonna do a class on why you need a will
and why you need some life insurance.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
You know, it's funny.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
I won't tell you the name of the company, but
they I wrote the book, and they reached out to
me and they're like, we really appreciate this conversation about
like singles, because think about it, when you look like
a state planninger, you look like wealth management commercials. You
have same sex couples, you have interracial couples, you even
have single parents. Where's the single person?
Speaker 3 (15:53):
You don't see them in the commercials.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
And so they reached out to me. They're like, this
is a really great conversation. How can we tap into
this market? And they just felt very explore And I
was like, I'm not trying. You're not trying to use
me to exploit this group of people, but I think,
you know, use your wisdom, find a group, a group
that's really supportive of you, and maybe we put something
together and we talk to these singles and we have
them put their estate plans together.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah, really, really really, particularly if you are single and
middle class and you own the house, you own a condo,
please please have a will. You can do it the
ninety nine dollar will on legal Zoom. But that is
so so important, and particularly the young people. You know,
my daughter died at thirty one. She owned a house
and she had a will. Okay, so it's very very
(16:37):
important in our culture as people of color, black, brown,
we do the family thing and we pass stuff on.
But you we live in the society where everything you
know is black and white on paper. So I think
you we need to do.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yes, yes, I talk of the book. I think about
how like my father wrote something on the back of
a napkin. I was like, this is what we knocking
ready to do. We're not gonna have this written on
the back of a napkin and was putting your safety
to deposit box, and we're going.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
To go through best legal documents and let's go ahead
and do that. Let's just go ahead and do that.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Point Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. My grandma Steve buried his
money back in the day. My grandmother did too. She
kept it in the freezer. My grandmother wrapped her little
dollar's up and put him in the freezer. Okay, here
it is. Yeah, I'm a van Zain. Can we do
a talk on protecting our assets. I'm a single woman
with a new home. I don't have any documented for
(17:33):
my only child if something happens to me. Okay, doctor March,
she need to be on that right, come on tell
her Tella Tella.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yes, like absolutely, I hope that we do do a show.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
But I think that we need to have legal documents
in a place and never You're never too young, and
you're never too old, and I don't care how little
you have or how much you have, you've worked hard
for it.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Put a legal document in place so people.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Know exactly what you want to happen if something were
to happen to you.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, I've got it written down on paper and from
my typewriter, and I have a legal will, and I
got a folder in the thing that say this is
what I want. Don't be messing with me and don't
have me laying around for fifty two days weeping and wailing.
Get in, get out, put me in the box, because
I don't know where I'm going and I want to
get there on time. Okay, somebody says, yeah, somebody has
(18:26):
a very good question, Uh, doctor marsh. They want to know,
how do you define wealth? I think that's a good
thing because just a little money in the bank that's
not wealth. How are you defining wealth?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Right? It's really funny because I was having a conversation
with a student about whether or not they're rich or
whether they're now in the NFL, whether or not they're rich,
or whether or not they're wealthy. If you have a
whole bunch of money in your account, you're checking account,
you would be considered rich. But wealth is when you
have assets that are building wealth for you. Because all
(19:00):
this money in this account goes, you can draw from
this asset and you can still live. So I talk
about wealth, it's some kind of asset. In most cases,
our biggest asset is going to be our house. Yeah,
But in some cases you have, especially in Black America,
you have like entrepreneurs, so you have businesses. Some people
have gold and precious metals. I ain't there yet, but
I'd love to get there one day. And so do
(19:22):
you think of this assets that's what makes you wealthy?
But just having a bank account with six figures doesn't
make you wealthy, that just makes you rich.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Yeah. Yeah, that is so so very important because I
am not rich, but I am wealthy. I am wealthy
because I have a lot of catalog of publications that
the minute I take my last breath, everybody going to
be running to buy my book. Okay, all right, and
I ain't even here. They going to be making money.
(19:50):
So I have to manifest my wealth. Somebody said they
were married for I can't remember how many years, and
their husband passed and he didn't have a a will. Well,
you know, that's that's important.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
I mean, we really can't say it enough, but we
really can't stress it enough. It's something to think about,
and I think, but I also think, what's the issue.
This came up on the book a little bit. We
have to think about the history of black Americans in particular,
and how we don't trust these institutions, and how we're
afraid to go ahead and do these living trusts and
these wills and so on and so forth. But we've
(20:24):
got to kind of move past that and understand that
we want to make sure people that are coming behind us,
our meeces, our nephews, are god children.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Whoever may be they're set up well, So please think.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
About trying to engage these institutions and put these living
trusts and wills together.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Yes. Now, another big conversation that I've heard lately, Dr
marsh is generational wealth. Yes, if you're single and middle class,
meaning you've got some assets, you've got some wealth. How
do we build generational wealth? How do we do that?
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Okay, so that's like a super duper great question to
the kind of conversation we were having earlier. We have
to think about it. If something happened to me, So
I've got a couple of assets. If something happens to me,
who was it going to go to. It's going to
go to the next generation. I don't have children, so
it's not going to go to my children, but it's
going to go to my god daughter.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
I'll give us some stuff to my students. I love
my students.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
I am only a professor because I admire and adore
my students. The day they get on my nerves, I'm
leaving being a professor and doing something completely different. So
we need to think about how our assets can hopefully
help the next generation. I want to complicate this conversation
just a bit though, and I want.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
You to stay with me. It was funny because I
did something for b ET a little while ago.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
And you know, you do a two hour interview, they
put a thirty minute snippet up on social media and
so they heard me say like, well, if you want
to improve marriage rates for Black Americans, pay Black Americans reparations.
So here's the conversation that I have in the book.
And I think that this is important, So just stay
with me for a second. There's a huge generational wealth
(21:56):
gap that existed an American and I don't think it's
going to be closed on the individual level.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
It has to have federal intervention.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
And the way that we close this wealth gap is
to pay reparations to Black Americans. To do anything less
than that and put the onus only on the individual
to close the wealth gap. When this is a federal process,
there are federal laws in place that built it is
short sighted and that's a heavy burden that Black Americans
(22:25):
have to carry. Now, I don't care where you sit
in that conversation. I don't care where you sit with reparations.
All I'm asking you to do is to sit in
the conversation and see where you fit in that conversation.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, well, I'm not even going to touch that with
a ten foot poll. Them reparations, I cannot, I cannot.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Not everybody wants to have the conversation. People just don't
want to have a conversation.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
But I'm just like, it's it's a conversation that we
need to have for a variety of reasons. But we're
gonna talk. Let's talk about our relationship with reparations.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
That's the point. So that's the point.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Though I do believe that you were to pay Black
Americans reparations, the.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Marriage rates might change.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
You might see an increase of black folks getting married
because we have access to capital now, and because we
have access to capital, we have people that are looking
like us, doing things and building.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Things, and now we're more likely to partner or to marry.
It is my argument, that is my theory.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
The only way we got it, the only way my
theory could we know if it works.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Or not is to pay us preparations and see what happens.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Well, you know, in terms of old reparation, the concept
forty acres and the mule. Now, I don't want no donkey,
I don't want him. I don't want the donkey. I
don't want him. But you know what, for me in
this day and age, I didn't educate my children. I
didn't educate my children. I was a young single mom
growing up. So my commitment in life was to educate
(23:53):
my grandchildren. Reparations for me would be that my grandchildren
could go to college for free. Reparations for me would
be that, you know, there's a fun that my grandkids
could go to to get a home. You know how
much would forty acres cost today in the middle class neighborhood.
(24:16):
Will let that be my grandchildren's down payment on their home.
So it doesn't have to be for me today forty
acres and the mule. But how can we construct those
reparations in a way that would be conducive to my
needs today? I don't need. I got rabbits and fox
(24:36):
and two dogs and the squirrels. The squirrels. That's driving
me crazy, But you know it's so I think that
to broaden it, that concept of what reparations would be today,
and I think it would support because I know someone
been in relationship for twenty years and haven't been haven't
(24:59):
gotten married, because he's an artist and you know, his
income is up and down, and he says, I can't
marry a woman if I can't buy a house, and
I can't do that. And literally he's never been married
and he's a he and he's middle income middle I
would consider middle class even though he doesn't own the house.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Yeah, can you be middle.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Class and not own a home?
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Okay? So yes you can.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
The definition that I use in some of my quantitative work,
not in the book, but some of my work that
builds up to the book, you had to also have
a home to be considered middle class. You had to
have educate some kind of higher education. You had to
be like you had to be like a professional managerial position.
You had to have income that was above the threshold
(25:50):
I can't remember what the threshold was for median households.
And then you also had to own a home. Part
of the reason again, why I wanted to do that
because in the literature it talks about the fragility of
the black middle class, that black Americans are one or
two paychecks away from poverty, especially when you.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Don't have the assets.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
So I'm trying to argue that there's this new demographic
group that exists. So I use the strictest measures possible
to define middle class, and everybody says, well, if you
would have relaxed the standards for a home ownership, would
it have increased the group? Actually, education having a bachelor's degree.
The thirty three percent of the US population have a
bachelor's degree, I.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Think almost I talk about in the book.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
I think maybe seventy percent of people own homes or
stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
I can't remember the number.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
So it's actually education was the hardest variable to load
on being middle class.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
It actually wasn't owing a home or not really.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Yeah, we'll talk about that when we come back. So
my bachelor's degree serves absolutely no purpose. Well, none of
my degree serves no purpose. My law degree, you don't
serve no purpose. My master's degree does serve a purpose.
(27:04):
My master's because my master's degree is in spiritual psychology.
So I do use that.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
But those variables, again, I'm not trying to I know
people might suggest those variables are elitists, but I have
to understand, I'm trying to establish this group in the
social science literature. So I had to use what other
measures were used in the past to say this group
is here. That's why I use those measures. I don't
adhere to those measures. It's what I'm trying to do
to say, I'm using your own measures, your own measurements,
(27:33):
to say, this group is here, and let's have more
conversations about people that are single and living alone. But
I also think like part of the conversation too, is
that there's an emergence of scholarship being written on singles.
And I say in the preface of the book, I
say that this really is a love letter to Black
women in a lot of ways, because whether or not
(27:53):
it's an adaptation, we had to do it or we
chose to do it. Black women have been doing singlehood
for a very long time, and we are showing the world. Yeah,
we're showing Americans, we are showing the world. We are
showing other racial and ethnic groups how to do this.
So what you're not too ready to do is make
this a face that doesn't look like me, because it
has been we have shown other people how to do it.
(28:13):
So that's another reason why I want to write the book,
to say, you know, let's get black women their flowers.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yeah, and black women who are working hard and who
are making the choice to be single. I want more
of us to make that choice from our souls and
not from disappointment, not from disappointment that past relationships didn't work.
And also to look at all of the things that
(28:38):
you've said. When we accumulate wealth, how do we pass
it on to other members of our family? Understanding that
wealth isn't about money, it's also about assets, you know,
to start doing little investments that we can. I have
a home that I live in, but black women, as
(28:59):
a black women, want to really acquire. I like land.
I want land and property. That's that's my thing. I
don't need cars and boats and all of that. I
want some land because when the stuff go left, I
want to be able to go out there and plant
me some tomatoes and some string beans. So my thing
is land. Doctor marsh is the author of the Love
(29:22):
Jones cohort. Being single and living alone and the middle class?
What do you want to leave our listeners with? I
thank all of you for tuning in today. Somebody said
I'm tired of paying bills alone. We'll stop making them.
If you don't want to pay them, don't make no bills.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Don't but please do not get married.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Justin can find somebody or partner or Jesse can find
somebody to pay your bill.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Okay, but you know how many people are doing that.
That's a whole other conversation. About the women who say
I want a partner that makes two fifty two, three
hundred thousand dollars and they ain't even got a college degree.
That's a whole number conversation. What do you want us
to know about being single, being middle class in the
new world, in the New Age.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Well, the first thing I wanted to say is, please
go and buy the book.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
The Love Jones Cohort.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Yeah, the Love Joe's Cohort signal I living Alone in
the Black middle class. You can find them on most bookstores.
I also have an audiobook, so you can read the
audio book. Please let me know when about what you
think when you read the book. There's two things I
want to say about reading the book. It is an
academic book, so the introduction in chapter one are theoretically dense.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
If that's not you get down and you don't.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Appreciate that, just skip on to chapter two and read
the stuff from chapter two on. I wrote the book,
and I try to flip through the first chapter, so
that's not I'm not really a theoretical person. But buy
the book, read it to the very end. Read the
appendencies because I mean the afterword, because there's some really
juicy stuff in the afterword. Also, when you read the book,
be sure and read the footnotes because I am a
(30:57):
black woman who is an academic, and so there's so
certain things that I couldn't say in the book because
my editor was like, doctor marsh you go off on
a tangent.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
Can you can you imagine him saying that?
Speaker 2 (31:05):
But okay, if you go off on a tangent, put
stuff in the footnotes. And he's like, but keep the
footnotes to a bare minimum. I have one hundred and
twenty footnotes because I have stuff that I want to say.
Let me just give a golden nugy about one footnote.
Then what's something I wanting to leave you with?
Speaker 3 (31:17):
In the book, we talked about like black middle class
identity and what that means being middle class and so
on and so forth. So the respondents talked about W. E. B.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Du Bois and this idea of the talented tenth basic sense. W. E. B.
Du boys was a sociologist, well known cyciologist, and he
said ten percent of black America are going to help
improve all of the ninety percent of black America. He
pushed back against his own idea. Here's what's really interesting
about that. I had to be sensitive to the data.
(31:45):
The respondents talked about W. E. B.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Du Boys, so I had to talk about him in
the book.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
But I put a footnote because what people very rarely
know is that there was another scholar at the exact
same time who was writing as W. E. B. Du Boys,
and this scholar was suggesting, if you would improve the
life chances of black women, you'll improve the life chances
of everybody. But her work was not getting published. Her
name was Anna Julia Cooper, one of the first black
(32:13):
women in the country to have a PhD. Part of
the reason why her work wasn't getting published is because
they were gatekeepers that prevented her work from getting published.
One of the gatekeepers was W. E. B.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
The argument is is that he actually plagiarized her stuff
later on in life. I, as a black woman and
an academic, will not write a book where Anna Julia
Cooper is not somewhere in my book. So if you
don't read the footnotes, you missed out on that wonderful
kind of conversation.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Okay, so what do I want to leave you with?
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Oh my gosh, there's so many things that we could
talk about.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
If there was one thing that I wanted to leave
you with.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
I think, like I said before.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
It's important for us to de stigmatize single hood.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
I don't want you to get in.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I don't want you to stay in relationships that are abusive, toxic, unfulfilling,
and unrewarding simply because you don't want to hold the
title of single. I also want you to think about
whether or not the singleness is based on individual behavior
or are there like structural forces that actually constrain your
dating market and that's why you're single. I think when
(33:22):
we leave it at the individual conversation, women in particular
are like, what was me?
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Something's wrong with me. I'm not fast enough, I'm not
praying enough.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
I'm not thin enough, I'm not thick enough, I'm not
dark enough, I'm.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Not light enough.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Let's step back and think about how like structure, how
society might play into this conversation. And when we do that,
it allows us to have a more positive relationship with ourselves,
which is really, really, really important.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Yeah, and if you are single, and if you do
have assets or wealth, make it a choice. You know,
because the one thing I found very interesting you said
you defined middle class as the people who were considered
that they've done everything right. They've got the good job,
(34:11):
they've got the good education, blah blah blah, and a
partner may be one of the rewards for doing the
right things. And it's really not, I really hear on
the R spot, I talk about building your relationship with yourself.
Celebrate the fact that you did get the education, that
you do have, the home, that you do have a
(34:32):
few little ducats that you can spend on your nieces
and your nephews and your grandma, and feel good about that.
One of the things, you know, one of the ways
that I stay single because I you know, I have
a natural. When I was growing up, guys never said
to me that I was pretty. They never told me
I was pretty. I was always sexy. I was always sexy.
(34:56):
So I have this thing, and you know, when I'm
on the prow I know where I know where to
put the perfume on my body so that you know
I'm sending out those vibes. I know which button the button.
I know which shoes to wear, so since I'm single
about choice, I don't put no perfume on them places letter.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
I say, celebrate you, right, I say, put that perfume
off for yourself.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
Put them shoes off for yourself, nurturing.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
I have my shoes and my and my push up
bra that I do for me. But when I have
that on, that's for me. But when I'm on the prowl,
I got a whole another, a whole nother way of being.
Doctor marsh Thank you so much for joining us, and
thank you to all of you out there for tuning
(35:53):
into the Art Spot today and every week. Whether it
be where to pick up a man and I'm telling
you don't sleep on the home depot, some real cuties there,
or if you want to know how to define wealth.
I hope you really learn something today that you didn't
know before. Be sure to join us next week for
(36:16):
our season finale. That's right. Time flies when you're learning
a lot. In the meantime, stay in peace and not
in pieces. Fine. The R Spot is a production of
Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from
(36:38):
Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Iyanla Vanzant
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