Ep 31: Claude Harmon III - A Lot of What Golf Has Done is Taken Approach of Tennis

Right in time for The Masters, professional golf coach Claude Harmon III who has instructed tour pros Brooks Koepka, Rickie Fowler, Ernie Els, Adam Scott, and Dustin Johnson joins Daniela to discuss golf and tennis and the DNA of what makes the two sports and the athletes approach to the game so similar.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
If you first serve I think in tennis isn't working.
That changes your strategy, but you feel like you can't
really really be aggressive if you're not driving the golf
ball in playoff team, then again, it really does affect
how you can play the rest of the game because
it puts a tremendous amount of pressure on your iron
game if you're missing fairways. Having the right team about

(00:30):
the player makes the difference. And how much is it
about listening to what my coaches tell me but then
going out there and actually doing the stuff on my own. Yeah,
I think it golf. Golf has become I think tennis.
Um if you look at you know, I flew home
from a tournament with last last night with with with

(00:52):
with Dustin Johnson, and you know, on the plane is
he's got a chef on the plane. He's got his
brother who's his caddy on the plane. He's got his trainer,
Joey Gee, who's on the plane sometimes to physio Marnus
is on the plane, and I'm on the plane. So
he's got six guys on his team that he travels
with pretty much every week. All right, Well, clothe, I

(01:13):
have to say this is so exciting, not only for
myself but for all my friends retired athletes. So when
I told them that I'm just about to talk to you,
they told me to one thousand questions that I need
to ask you. So thank you so much for your time.
And uh, first of all, what's your relation to tennis?
How much do you actually watch it? Lady yourself? Maybe

(01:35):
you know, Um, my dad was a golf instructor, and
I have I I had three uncles they were golf instructors.
My grandfather was a golf instructor. He won the Masters,
which is, you know, the Wimbledon of golf in and
I never played golf growing up. I played tennis. I never,
I never I played on my high school tennis team.

(01:56):
I I never played golf. I was a tennis and key. Um,
you should be then on this end of the world.
We should be discussing Florence and Bacons. I used to
I used to go to because I didn't know a
lot of people that played tennis. So I would go
to tennis courts by myself and hit myself balls. And
I had my John McEnroe was my favorite, and I

(02:19):
had the Max two hundred graphite racket like mcinro did um.
But now I always followed tennis. So I watched tennis
growing up, you know a lot on TV, UM, ESPN
back then was just kind of starting. I'm fifty one,
and that was kind of when John McEnroe and television
for you know, tennis all the time, and the Davis

(02:41):
Cup was huge, and you know, I thought it was
cool to like all the the suite Michael pern four's
I thought he was cool to like when I was
younger and stuff. So now I was I was a
tennis and so I mean half the stuff I follow
on Instagram or tennis sites of trying to hit a
better back end. So I'm, like you said, I'm the
the athlete that likes golf on then athlete that likes tennis.

(03:05):
So there isn't a better person in the world than
to ask the question that we always keep discussing. In
your opinion, Um, what's more difficult golf or tennis? If
you can actually say the way I think golf for
a lot of people is more difficult because I think
the hardest thing about golf is you're not moving, so

(03:26):
you kind of have to start the movement pattern. Um.
I gave a golf lesson once to a guy that
worked in semiconductors and he never played golf before and
he wanted to learn how to play golf, and he
was he had no athletic ability, he had no golf ability,
but we were trying to get him to hit some
golf balls. And because he came from the science world,
he said something that that always you know, start with me,

(03:48):
He said, You're the hardest thing for me about golf
is I'm starting at zero energy, so you're basically starting
from a fixed position, and you as the athlete, have
to start the movement pattern, where in tennis you're you're
reacting a lot to where the ball goes, and you
can use momentum and speed and things like that. So

(04:09):
I think a lot of people struggle with golf because
they think it's not like the other sports that they play.
But golf, I think in tennis probably have more similarities
and really any other sport that I can think of,
in the way that the body moves, in the way
that you transfer weight. The only difference in golf that
I think sometimes golfers forget is the ball is always

(04:31):
in the right position for you to hit it. There's
never going to be an outside agency in golf that
at the top of your back swing is going to
move the golf ball further away from you or someone
would run at you. And I think people that come
from other sports, specifically players that come from you know,
the baseball, the hockey, the tennis, the ball is always

(04:54):
in the perfect position for you to to hit the
best shot possible, but you, as the player, I think,
sometimes moves around. So um. But yeah, I think golf
and tennis have enormous similarities for sure. So well, there
are some of the mistakes we bring tennis players hockey players,
mainly as you mentioned from our profession, when we try

(05:16):
to actually, you know, hit the golf. Well, I think
most of the tennis players that I've worked with and
most of the hockey players that I've worked with, if
they're right handed, all tend to miss. Tends to be
a hawk because they're very used to their body being
in an unstable position and being able to rapidly accelerate

(05:37):
the racket, rapidly accelerate the stick, whereas the baseball players
and the hitters and baseball all tend to slice the
ball because they're trying to come through with the racket
and a very or the bat in a very very
much of a position like this, um both. You know,
the baseball players, the tennis players, UM, the hockey players

(05:57):
all tending golf to have a lot of speed because
they are athletic and they play a rotational sport. But
believe it or not, I mean, if you are a
right handed golfer and a right handed tennis player, a
lot of the similarities and what you would do to
hit a backhand, the way the body would move, the
way your arm would move. You know, I say that

(06:19):
a lot of times. You know, it is a feeling
that almost like you're heating a back end the racket,
control of how to control the face. A lot of
the tennis players that I've been around have tremendous touch
and feel. I got to watch matsfy Lander played in
the pro am um with Dustin Johnson right before the pandemic,

(06:40):
and to watch his short games just unbelieved because he
could just do so many cool things. And you know,
it is a very similar movement pattern from a lot
of sports. UM. I think the hockey players have the
most speed because they generated from very very kind of
wide base and then rapid acceleration that way, but is

(07:03):
there may be a point where you have to kind
of if you're trying to teach us a proper golf swing,
except that we've got so many habits from our sports
that we are never actually going to be able to
have like a proper golf swing because where we come from. Yeah,
I think the most important thing in golf. I think

(07:23):
a lot of golfers get wrapped up into um they're
obsessed with the direction the golf ball is traveling right,
how much it's curving to the right, how much it's
curving to the left, whatever that is. And to me
as an instructor, I think the single biggest determining factor
on your progression to get better is having contact with

(07:44):
the golf ball and the golf club all the ground
and and and no joke, I use so many tennis
analogies when I teach getting it being able to get
the golf ball in the air with every single club
in your bag, whether it's a you know, a lab
wedge that has the most loft on the on the
golf clubs or a driver that has the lease where
you get to put it on a t but specifically

(08:06):
with irons if you can get the golf ball in
the air every time you make a golf swing, regardless
of how far it goes and regardless of the direction
it goes, that's the tennis equivalent of being able to
just get it over the net and in the court.
So we can play if you hit a ball back
to me and I hit it, even if I moonball
it back over the court, you can then hit it back.

(08:28):
Every time I make a forehand, I hit it into
the net. You can't progress and you can't continue to
play the game. And I think a lot of golfers
play the majority of their golfing career never really learning
how to get hit the golf ball solid and get
the golf ball in the air all the time. So
they'll hit three or four good ones and then they'll

(08:50):
hit five or six bad ones where the ball doesn't
get into the air, they're hitting the ground, they're hitting
it fat, they're topping it, and again that's the tennis
of just hitting it into the to the net and
not being able to get it over the and getting
it over to the other side of the court. So
I think, to me, I don't really worry so much
which direction players hit the golf ball draws or fades.

(09:14):
To me, the most important thing is the quality of
the strike and the quality of the contact. And I
think the athletes that come from the other sports to
golf the ones that progress really really fast. I mean,
I've seen Rafa's swing. I mean, Rafa's golf swing looks
very much like its tennis swing. It wouldn't be something
that you would teach, but it's very very functional, and so, um,

(09:35):
what what I try to do with the athletes is
if the golf swing is functional, I really don't care
what it looks like because you know, and and it's
like that in tennis. I mean, you know, there are
some weird kind of backhands and weird things. But if
you can functionally get it over the net every time
without a lot of unforced errors, you can make it work. Yeah, totally,

(09:57):
as as long as it works, doesn't matter what it
looks like. Um. And it's so true because I feel
like all the tennis players, the way we play tennis,
it kind of transfers where we play golf, obviously, and
I'm sure it's the other way around. Now. You mentioned,
you know, in tennis, we've got the net, we've got
the opponents in hockey as well. This is something I
always wonder in golf, how much do you actually just

(10:19):
play the course now talking about professional level, and how
much you actually worry about the rest of the field,
what it's doing out there. I think it's really hard
for players to not worry about what's going on on
the golf course around them. Um. I just came from
Austin where they have one of the few um match
play tournaments. So in match play, I think somewhat you

(10:41):
are playing more of the opponent than you are the
golf course. Um. But certainly in regular tournaments struck play,
I mean the golf course, everyone's playing the same golf course,
and you know, it's very it's hard not to let
what's happening around the golf course with the other players
influence to you. But um, I think you're playing the

(11:04):
hole that you're playing. That's it. So if you're on
the first hole and you're on the t you can't
kind of control the next shot, and you can't control
the shot on the second hole. In the third hole,
you can only kind of control each shot as they're playing.
So um, yeah, you are playing the golf course, and
I think sometimes maybe one of the players I work with, UM,

(11:25):
see who Kims, who was from Korea, doesn't have He's
got a beautiful, beautiful golf swing, but he doesn't nearly
have the speed as some of the other players. So UM,
a couple of days ago, he was playing in the
match players playing Bryson de Schambeau, and Bryson is probably
gonna hit it fifty sixty yards past him with the driver,
which he did on a number of occasions, and I said,
see to see who all through his warm up, Listen,

(11:48):
just don't really kind of watch what he's doing today
because you can get kind of wrapped up in that. Well.
We saw earlier, like two weeks ago, Rory McElroy was
talking about how one of the reasons why he thinks
he's been struggling with his golf swing is because after
all the things Bryson was doing to try and gain
more speed, Rory decided that he was going to try

(12:08):
and chase some distance and it's really thrown off a
lot of his timing and his rhythm. So UM, I
think it's natural when you're looking at what other players
are doing, UM, in your I mean, one of the
things players talk about Danielle in golf is if you've
got three guys in a group right in a PGA
Tour event to a Thursday and Friday, if if a

(12:31):
couple of the guys in the group aren't really playing
good and aren't really making a lot of putts, some
guys will come off and say, yeah, I mean the
other guys in my group didn't really play that great today,
so there was no energy in the group. But if
you're playing and and and everybody in your group, so
you've got three guys and one guy gets off to
a really fast start, starts making pots, and then the

(12:51):
other guy in the group, if they're two or three
under through you know, four or five holes, and they're
both playing good. There's good energy, and there's good they're
not the play the other guy in the group isn't
waiting a long time while everybody's hitting it offline. So UM,
and then I think if you're in on on the
weekend where they go to two sums and you're in

(13:12):
the last couple of groups, UM, I think you do
see players get influenced by what other players do. Um.
Tiger was notorious for that. I mean Tiger, there's loads
of stories that players talk about on Part three's that were,
you know, into the wind and Tiger, if he was
playing in the final group with a player be a
hundred and you know, let's say it was a hundred

(13:33):
and you know, sixty five yards, Tiger would sometimes take
one or two clubs more than he normally would because
he knows the guy in the group. His opponent would
be looking in the bag and he would hit like,
instead of hitting an eight iron, he'd hit like a
little chip cut six iron. And so the player looked
into his bag and said, well, he hit the what's

(13:53):
he's hitting a six iron and I want to hit
an eight iron. Maybe instead of hitting the eight iron,
I'll hit seven iron. You hit it and hit it
over the green. The entire you're just kind of lulled
you into that. So there was a lot of gamesmanship, um,
and you can be affected by what other players are doing.
And you know, yeah, I think it's it's hard, but

(14:14):
you are playing the golf course. Every time you go
out and play, you are playing each hole as they come. Wow,
that is so interesting. I would never thought about it
that way. So it's literally like you're playing doubles made
because but you're playing against your partner because you are
so close each other. I guess, yeah, there's there's loads

(14:40):
of stuff. Well, I mean you you you know when
you get on the court, and momentum in sports is huge, right,
and I think you know. And and so if you
can get in a group of players that have good momentum, yeah,
I mean, it doesn't if there's no energy in the group.
I mean, I mean in doubles specifically, you know, if
your partner isn't playing well and you're playing well, I

(15:01):
mean you you can do a lot. But except in god,
you're actually playing against your partner. So that's wow and
so interesting. Now, one other thing that I feel it
makes golf so much harder than tennis is that you know,
I miss a shot, I might be six lap five
left down and I can still win the match, where

(15:23):
in golf obviously there's no such thing. How do you
train that, um you know, short term memory moving on
to the next shot within a couple of seconds. Literally.
I think the hardest thing in golf for a lot
of people, and especially for people who come from the
other um sports, is if you're gonna play an eighteen

(15:43):
whole round of golf, there's and even if you're going
to play an eighteen whole round of golf and you're
going to play in a competition, there's an enormous amount
of time as as a golfer where you're not doing anything,
where you're walking, and like you said, in tennis, you
can you know, miss miss aforehand, but the next point
is coming in imediately, right, and so you you have
to have a very very short term memory in tennis.

(16:05):
And and I'm always fascinated where, you know, when when
I used to watch Andy Murray and you can see
Andy miss some four hints and stuff, and then he
starts arguing with the guys in the box and everything
and so and you could really really see you see it.
I think more in tennis sometimes when you do engolf,
because the guys in golf, they can hit a bad

(16:27):
shot and then it takes some other times to hit
one it the car crash takes longer. Where I think
in tennis you can see, you know, players just you know,
be cruising and then all of a sudden they hit
a couple of bad shots and then it really really snowballs.
And I think we see that in in golf as well,
I mean, I think one of the players that I
work with, Dustin Johnson, who's the number one player in

(16:48):
the world, he to me he has the best mind
in the game because he never really thinks about anything
other than the shot that he's hitting. Um, he knows
he can't control the shop that he just hit, and
he knows he can't control the shop that's around the corner. Now, obviously,
if you tell a player that in both golf and tennis,

(17:09):
say yeah, yeah, obviously, yeah, I'm going to play the
shop that I'm playing. Thanks for that. I couldn't figure
that out on my own. But once the game and
the and and the round and golf and tennis start,
you'd be surprised. I mean, and you've gone through this,
you know, you're trying to stay positive, you're trying to
focus on your technique, you're trying to play one one

(17:29):
point at a time, one game at a time, and
stuff like that, and your body just isn't doing what
your mind's telling it to do. And in that respect, um,
I think all great tennis players and all great golfers
at the professional level become great players because they can
learn how to tread water to where necessarily they don't

(17:50):
have their best stuff early in a match or early
in around of golf. Then maybe you in tennis you
don't go for the forehand is big, and you just
try and get more balls into the court and have
as of love forced arrows as possible, and then in
golf you'd be surprised. And then a couple of years ago,
when I was still working with Brooks Kepka, we were
in Abu Dhabi and there was a kid and I
have an academy, a golf academy in Dubai, and we

(18:12):
had a kid who was sixteen years old who'd won
a couple of tournaments on a like a professional tour
that they have out in the Middle East called a
mean a tour. He's sixteen and he's a very good player,
and he qualified for the Abodhabi tournament on the European Tour,
and so he was asking Brooks some questions, and so
we were walking onto a part three green and he
said to Brooks, how many flags around do you aim at?

(18:35):
How many pins do you fire at? And Brooks said, well,
kind of what is it a major tournament or a
non major? And the kid said, well, what's the difference,
And so well, if it's in a major, I'm probably
not really aiming at really any of the flags because
they put the flags in very difficult situations and and
the mists is very penal and and the major's you know,

(18:57):
you're trying to limit the damage because they're so hard
to win. So he said to majors, I don't really
fire at any and if it's a non major, maybe
four to five around. And his caddie, Ricky Elliott, held
up three fingers and said, we maybe go at three
pins around and notes probably with short clubs. The rest

(19:18):
of the time, you're just trying to hit it. So
I think, and I think in tennis as well, I
think the average tennis player would be surprised at how
many times you're not trying to hit winners. You watch
amateur tennis, they're basically trying to hit flat out winners
on every single point. There's no kind of construction of

(19:40):
the point where just get it back, move here, get
it back, move here. And I think you'd be surprised
at how much golfers aren't really going for big shots.
Um you know they do with shorter clubs. On part
three's if you watch Off on TV, there'll always be

(20:01):
a part three where let's say they put the pin in,
there's water in front and there's no room on the
right hand side, so that hit it close to the pin.
Nobody hits it close to that pin all day, and
then a player will get up and they'll hit one
to like this, and the crowd will go crazy and everything,
and they'll come off the golf course and they'll say
to the the interviewer will say, listen, great shot on
seventeen today or the closest of the day, and the

(20:23):
player will say, I pushed it or I pulled it.
I certainly wasn't aiming over there and I just got locked.
So they're not actually going at a lot of flags. Um.
I think in tournaments, if professional golfers are chasing and
there behind, then they're going to take more chances and
go at more things. But I think, you know, the

(20:44):
average amateur golfer would play so much better if they
never really fired at any pin, if they just looked
at the green. And I do that. We do that
a lot with juniors as we go out and we'll
play nine holes and we'll go out beforehand and we'll
just take all the flags all the green, So the
players stand in the middle of fairway, doesn't know where
the pin is. So if you didn't know where the

(21:05):
pin was, you'd probably aim for the middle of the green.
Just aim for the middle. And if you put yourself,
if you think about the last time you played golf,
if you just walked onto the green and dropped yourself
in the middle of every green, how far away from
the whole would you ever really be, regardless of where
they put the whole. And I think so many amateurs,

(21:29):
you know, play very, very aggressive. Again the similarities between
tennis and golf. I mean, if you were trying to
teach someone what to do with their forehand in their
back end, just the middle of the court. You don't
need to go for the lines, you don't need to
go to just hit it back to the middle. And
if you hit it back to the middle, somebody else
has to do something. It is so true, It is

(21:50):
so true, And I'm so glad you're saying that, because,
especially like you said, were the junior players. You know,
they see Ralpha Roger and all that making this unbelievable shots,
but they don't realize that that comes from just nine
of the time being solid and even as you know,
first round of slams, everyone is freaking out, everyone is
tied as hell. So literally what you're thinking, it's help meter,

(22:10):
about the net help meter from all the lines. Don't
even try to go for anything. And then if you
make some unbelievable shows like most of the time when
they asked me, how did I make that, I don't know,
it's just you know, it happened. Happened, Yeah exactly, but yeah.
Again another similarity that's that's fascinating to to see and

(22:32):
compare um. So we said that he had. Brooks used
to say when he played, he at a four whole
rule in the tournament, and he would say, listen to
the first four holes I'm probably going to get I'll
get apart four, I'll probably get a part three, and
I'm probably going to be or get apart five. Somewhere

(22:53):
in the first four to five holes. I'm gonna get
all three of the holes I'm gonna play. So he
used to say, I'm pretty much by the if hole,
We're going to have a pretty good idea how I'm
hitting it that day. If I'm hitting my driver good,
if I did a bunch of fairways, if I've hit
a bunch of greens. If I've missed greens, what's my
short game been like, and how have I putted through that?
And he said, based off of that, I adjust what

(23:15):
I'm going to do for the rest of my round
off the first four holes, because he said, listen, if
I'm driving it really good, I'm hitting a lot of
greens and I'm putting good, he said, then we might
try and take some more aggressive targets. Maybe more aggressive.
But he said, if I've missed the first three fairways
and I'm not hitting a lot of greens, He's like, maybe,
then I adjust what I'm hitting off the teams. So

(23:38):
I think, you know, to me, the the similarities again
between golf and tennis is the driver is to serve right.
What you're doing with your driver, and as you know,
how you're serving in tennis has a massive, massive effect
on what you do with the rest of your game,
regardless of how good your groundstrokes are, regardless of how

(24:01):
good your strategy. If you're you know, having a lot
of second serves and double faults, it's it's really hard
to feel like you can form a game plan because
you feel like you're always on the defensive. So if
you first serve I think in tennis isn't working. That
changes your strategy. But you feel like you can't really
really be aggressive if you're not driving the golf ball

(24:23):
and play off the team. Then again, it really does
affect how you can play the rest of the game
because it puts a tremendous amount of pressure on your
iron game if you're missing fairways and then you know,
if you're missing fairways and you're missing greens, it puts
a lot of pressure on your putting because you're gonna
have a lot of huts for par But on tour,

(24:46):
guys always talk about if they're missing a lot of
fairways and we're missing a lot of greens, then they
have to rely on their putting to kind of save them.
And then they'll hit it to fifteen feet a good
shot with an iron, and then they'll on it five
ft past because they feel like they have to make
it because they haven't had a lot of chances. So

(25:06):
the mental kind of toll that not you know, getting
a first serve in and we see I mean you watch,
I mean you commentable that you see players that listen
great ground strokes, the serve is the weakness. And if
the service the weakness, it doesn't really matter how good
the ground strokes are, right. And then I think if
they're always struggling, you know, and they're not great servers,

(25:30):
it puts so much pressure on your on the rest
of your game because you feel like, well, listen, I'm
I know I don't serve well. I have to do
everything else so good, and then you start taking chances
on your second serves and stuff. So driving the golf
ball off the t I think is and and and
most golfers, I think struggle with if they could change
one aspect the average golfer. I think, if you could

(25:53):
change one aspect of your your game, I think it
would be driving the golf ball. If you could get
more golf balls in the fairway, it really does change
the way that you play and can play the game.
I think also that what you mentioned about the first
four or five holes approach, it's so similar to tennis.
I keep saying that to the junior players. Um, you know,
the first three four games, you're kind of getting the

(26:16):
feel of the match, and you if you're trying to
go for winners right from the start and you're not
having a good day, there is no way to go
from there. There you just feel like you are under
constant pressure where you let the match open within the
first few games, then you kind of can always go
for it more. But if you start going for it
more from the first game, unless you're feeling unbelievable and confident,

(26:40):
which happens maybe once in five years because we all know,
then there is not really anywhere to go. Um. I
feel like we could chad all day about this. One
more thing that I really wanted to know is, um,
how much of having the right team about the player
makes the difference? And how much is it about listening

(27:03):
to what my coaches tell me but then going out
there and actually doing the stuff on my own. Yeah,
I think golf golf has become I think tennis. Um,
if you look at you know, I flew home from
a tournament with last last night with with with with
Dustin Johnson, and you know, on the plane is he's

(27:23):
got a chef on the plane, He's got his brother
who's his caddy on the plane. He's got his trainer,
Joey Gee, who's on the plane sometimes to physio Marnus
is on the plane, and on on the plane. So
he's got six guys on his team that he travels
with pretty much every week. And I think golf was
golf wasn't golfers had coaches and golf instructors, um, you know,

(27:45):
in the last twenty years. But I think a lot
of what golf has done is taking the approach of tennis,
and you know, taken especially at the professional level. I think,
especially in the last year with the pandemic and the
restrictions on traveling. I mean pretty much, you know, most
weeks now, most of the big players on tour are
getting houses similar to what you all do for Major

(28:05):
is pretty much the majority of the big players get houses,
they get chefs, they have guys you know, working them out,
they have guys working on their body, and it is
more of a team approach, and um, you know, I
think that you know, sometimes, UM, I think the physios
and the trainers are as valuable as as as I
am as what I do, because you know, I've got

(28:27):
the task of working on a player's golf swing. But
then the trainers have to keep them in shape and
the physios have to keep them, you know, physically in shape.
So um, I think, I mean golf has become more
like tennis in that way. I think they're Um, the
rise of coaching and golf was always I think a
little bit behind tennis, um, especially if you look at

(28:49):
countries like the UK, you know, where golf lessons were
cheap and people didn't take a lot of golf instruction.
And I think once you know, guys like David Ledbetter
and my father really he became kind of the the
nick bolletarians of their era to where they were very
high profile working with a lot of players. UM. And

(29:10):
I think that um, you know, instruction has has really
improved in golf. I think we're getting you know, more information, um.
And I think golf golf is more, in my opinion,
at the professional level, more like a sport and more
like the rest of athletics than it ever has been.

(29:30):
You know. And you know, golf just to this day,
I mean you see people say, listen, golf's not a sport.
You know, it's it's just not a sport. But I think,
you know the way golf used to be kind of
taught and trained. Um. You know, I spend more time
as a golf instructor UM some years spending time with
physios and biomechanic guys and you know, physical trainers and

(29:52):
trying to pick their brains as I do with other
golf instructors. Um. You know, I spend an enormous time
with with all the guys that I work with, the
guys on their team, from the physios, from you know,
the workout guys. You know, DJ is big on all
of us going to work out together. So a lot
of times, you know, we're on the road, we work
out together. You know, you know me his brother, who's

(30:13):
his caddie, his trainer and stuff. And obviously being the
non athlete of the bunch, I always get jim shamed
into how much I can lift. They always say, you know,
the loser, the guy who lifts the least weight has
to buy all the smoothies. So every week I buy
on all the smoothies after the work So how much

(30:45):
how much of the superstitious stuff goes on. That's the
team has to do the same thing throughout the tournament,
wearing the same outfits and all all of that. Just
like you know, some players you know are super o
c D like guys like Rafa and stuff, and you know,
are very regimented and kind of you knew the ones

(31:06):
on tour that were you know, super o c D
that would always get to the courts early, that we're
always on time. And then there were great players that
I'm sure you played with that never had the right shirt,
that they never they're taking the shirts straight out of
the wrapper, putting him in with the creases and stuff
like that. There's there's golfers on tour that are, you know,
extremely meticulous about the way they look about the way

(31:30):
kind of their bags dustin. You know, DJ is very
very um meticulous about everything and where the golf clubs
are and his bag. Even when he's warming up, if
he'll he'll be rearranging where the golf club DJ when
he's warming up, his warm up is probably about hitting
balls about an hour to an hour and fifteen minutes.

(31:50):
If he's hitting irons, he cleans the club after every
iron shot he hits, so he'll make he'll make a
swing and then he cleans the face and then and
he's and he's very matickets. And then you have other
players um that just the bag, they don't care, they
don't really care what they're wearing. They're just they're kind
of in their own world. Some players are really superstitious.

(32:12):
And the number on the ball like some players that
will never use I know, I know of a player
that's never wanted to use the number three, So all
the number. There are players that only use certain number
golf balls. Wo, feeling your world is a little bit

(32:33):
more screwed up than ours, Like you have more time
to think about all these things. Yeah, way more time
on the coin that you use to mark your ball. Yeah.
So um, certain perfect like certain golfers will only use
certain tea s DJs teas have to be certain teas.
The only teas in his bag are certain teas and crazy,

(32:56):
this is great, keep going, it makes me feel more normal.
So his brother A J. Will have to go get
you know, DJs a tailor made guys. So he has
to go onto the tailor maid tour truck and you know,
every every week he gets a big plastic bag of
tease and um, you know, uh, I'm trying to think

(33:17):
of the other superstitions. Um, is there something you you
do when your players doing well? Did you keep repeating No?
I used to you know there are there there were,
Here's here's one. You'd be surprised at this so um.
Ernie Els was famous for this. So um. If you
went out to if you're one of Ernie's friends and
you went out to follow him on the golf course,

(33:38):
and if you showed up on in a tournament on
the fifth hole and and Ernie, let's say, made three bogies. Ernie,
sometimes you tell his caddie to go tell a friend
of his who he's staying with and is going to
have the dinner out. He's made three bogie since you've
turned up. And there are times, as an instructor, you
know you'll go out on the gulf. I've done been
sending people out of my books and you go out there.

(34:02):
I mean, I love it when you know the players
are arguing with we don't we don't get that. I
think golf is more um there. Once the player goes
out on the golf course and gets into the inside,
we call it inside the ropes, the roping of the
golf course. We can't we can't touch, we can't talk
to him. I can't really say anything to the caddy.

(34:23):
So and I'm really conscious that I can't do that.
So I always try and never really make eye contact.
I always try and get to where they never really
really see me. But the problem is with the pandemic,
the only people that have been following, we've been allowed
to follow and there's no one out there, so um,

(34:45):
but we don't tend to get yelled at a situation
down at the US Open. I mean at the Australian
Open this year when I was a Medvedev's coach, walked
out and I'm thinking the amount of times I've wanted
to do that, just walked out. So I think the
other I think the other similarity between you know, golf
and tennis at the professional level is you know, the

(35:08):
player in golf and in tennis, you're all crazy, you're
all getting well at us. You know, it's never your fault.
It's never your fault. Yeah, but do you have the
advantage that no one can yell at you? So you
picked their export? You know. The funny thing that my dad,
my dad always says this, and I think it's I

(35:30):
think it's probably true in tennis as it is in golf,
you know, because of the individual sport. My dad used
to always say, listen. At the professional level, I think
the instructors and the coaches get far too much credit
when their players playing good, and they get far too
much of the blame when their players playing bad. And
and you know, and I think, you know, I've always

(35:51):
been you know, I never played golf at at any
competitive level. You know, I never played you know, professional golf,
amateur golf. And I was very lucky at a very
early age. When I was about sixteen, my my dad
started working with you know, professional golfer Steve Elkington, and
then went to work with Davis Love and then went
to work with Greg Norman and took Greg Norman to

(36:13):
number one in the world, and then started working with
Tiger Woods when he was sixteen years old. And and
so because even though I didn't play golf, I had
my education in my background was learning how to coach,
learning how to give golf lessons and teach golf lessons.

(36:33):
But really it was like I learned how to coach
golf and coach tour golf. And so because I just
was always around my dad when he was giving golf
lessons to Greg Norman, who was the number one player
in the world. Then he worked with Tiger for ten years,
and all of my uncles taught guys um that played professionally.

(36:55):
So I was just kind of immersed in the tour
element of golf, which is really really weird. I think
it'd be like a tennis player, a tennis coach who
didn't really play test but was just with Tony Roach
and was just with Nick Bolletarian, was just with you know,

(37:16):
yourn boards coach and just basically got to watch. There's
a technical side of things, yeah, absolutely. I think there
are great technical coaches in golf, and I think there
are great coaches in golf, and I'm sure there are
in tennis. There are you know. I think one of
the things I think is really really cool, and I
think we'll start to see more of that in golf

(37:38):
is the way that tennis players and the best tennis
players in the world have taken ex champions and X
Major winners as their confidante coach and stuff, because you
know that, I think that's always a huge disadvantage that
I've got is that my dad played the tour, and

(37:59):
I think it was one of the things that really
really helped him and helped him become the greatest coach
in the game and the greatest instructive the game because
he played the tour and he knew what the players
were going through. And you know, I never in my
head come from teaching golf that it's easy that telling

(38:21):
a player, whether they're an eighteen handicap or or the
number one player in the world, what you're trying to
get them to do. I never think it's easy. And sometimes,
you know, I'll say to DJ, you know, do this
and go go man, bro I'm trying, I said, listen, No,
I know, I know you're trying. And so I think, um,
the way golf is evolved, I think has a lot

(38:42):
of um similaritiesn't take and has taken a lot of
you know, cues from tennis. UM. And I think we're
we talk more with players Daniela now about playing the
game than we used to. I think that a lot
of it was it was just golf swing. It was
just your golf swing. In this position, we know, you know,

(39:02):
we're taking all of the same stats and all of
the same data that that that that modern tennis is
is going through as well, and we're able now to
look at how you can play golf in the same
way that you know tennis coaches will looking data and
go and listen, this is how you need to construct
the point this is how so it seems like it's different.
I think that's one of the things that that that

(39:23):
hurt golf along, you know, maybe thirty years ago, is
it was taught and people thought that it was very,
very sports specific, and I think sometimes athletes coming from
other sports really do think golf is really really kind
of its own kind of element and it's not like
everything else they do, but it really really is it's about,

(39:47):
you know, I was. I think when I'm teaching and
I asked players, there's two things that you hit a
bad shot, you want to ask yourself and be able
to analyze in your own head. Is it technique or
is it a execution. If it's technique, so if you're
hitting four hands and you're consistently hitting them into the

(40:07):
net and you're consistently not able to you know, hit
the shot, then you need to Okay, you need to
hit it. Maybe you need more spin, maybe you need
to kind of hit up on the ball, or you know,
do more things you can do that or the execution
part is, hey, just don't try and hit it so hard,
just aim better, don't go for so much. And I

(40:29):
think every golfer, and I think most golfers coming from
other sports, if they hit a bad shot, they're a
hundred percent convinced that their technique. Sometimes it's the execution.
I think we see that more so Daniel in short game.
If you've got a chip shot and you've missed the
green and you blade it over the green, or you

(40:51):
hit it fat and it doesn't get on the green,
that's if you do that five, six, seven times in
a row, that's technique. You need to go work on
how you're actually hitting the shot. If you just hit
it past the hole and hit it too far, or
you hit it short of the hole and not far enough,
or you hit it on the wrong slope and then

(41:12):
it curves away from the ball, that's execution. That would
be okay, how do I execute the shot better? And
I think most golfers, even at the handicap level, if
you're a fifteen to handicap and you're trying to break
you know, a hundred nine or eight for the first time,

(41:33):
believe it or not, the way you're going to do
that is by making more bogeys, not making more pars,
not making more bodies. Most golfers struggle on the golf
course because they have a very destructive hole. They'll make
a double bogeye, or they'll make two or three double
bogies that they just can't recover from. Right. You know,

(41:55):
Tennis players, you know, can have unforced errors and still win, right,
So you know, even you know, I mean, and I
think the better the player, the more unforced errors they
can have and still win matches. Now, obviously, when Novak
and Roger and you know, and Serena go out and
just basically have very little unforced errors, they're going to

(42:19):
be tough to beat. You know, if they're hitting the
ball clean and they're the forehand or the backhand or
the serve or whatever is working, the opponent knows that
they're going to be tough to beat. But I think,
as I said earlier, you know, Roger and and and
the great players, they've won majors where they maybe didn't
service good or maybe the volley wasn't good, And I

(42:41):
think you have to kind of be able to do that.
So um, I also thinking, like in tennis as well,
I don't think the average golfer realizes how the the
best players in the world don't hit it as good
as I think people watching think they do. They still

(43:03):
hit bad shots. They don't hit at the five feet
every time. And I think tennis players, yeah, I mean
if you watch, I mean I'm I love watching. You know,
there's golf and tennis. The other similarity right now is
you can just watch Instagram videos of guys you've never
heard of s fourhands and it's indoors and the sounds
great and the sounds great, and it looks great and
it's like monster forehand and then you go look up

(43:24):
at their world breaking You're like, dude, he's not even
on tour. He's like on the satellite beforehand, looks money
and it's like, I'm all Instagram and dumb on beforehand
and you're like it's so cool. And you're like, he's
made like three grand in the tournament once. And so
the ability to do all of that in a match,

(43:47):
you have to hit that forehand that it's got seventy
thousand views on Instagram where the ball machines just hitting
it back. But to actually do that at you know,
when you've got to break chance and the first set,
where's that forehand now? Because it's not on Instagram, right,
and we see that a lot. I think in similarities
in golf is taking taking what you do on the

(44:09):
driving range and in practice, and then implementing it once
the game starts. Because golf, believe it or not, I
think is closer to tennis, and people think because golf
is practiced light tennis, where it's your practice is repetitive, right,
you just practice. You can practice forehand, forehand, for hand,

(44:29):
for and you do that in golf. You know, seven iron,
seven iron, seven iron, seven iron, But then as soon
as the tennis match starts, it's all random because you
have an opponent. Yeah, well, I think in golf if
you could start to think about your opponent is the
golf course. And so you've been practicing your golf swing.
You know, you've been hitting a bunch of seven irons,

(44:50):
and you've been working on your golf swing with a
seven iron and working on your mechanics, and it looks
great and it's great on the range. But just like
in tennis, the golf course is the opponent. You might
not Let's say you don't get a seven iron until
the back nine and that's the only club you've practiced doing.
So golf is one h random, but it is practiced

(45:11):
as if it's repetitive, and so I always say with
you know, similar to tennis and golf, is you you'll
have when you're working on your strokes, you're basically listen,
feed me some let's work on the backhand, and they're
basically just going to hit backhands to you. If you're
working on your backhand, you're working on your forehand. Your
coach would say, listen, let's work on whatever individual element.

(45:34):
And then what they would do is start And I
watched these videos. You go the drills to where you
go backhand and then you go hit a forehand, and
then you go hit a backhand, and then you go
hit a forehand right, and then you'll play out some points.
Once you start playing out some real points, that's the
randomized part of tennis, right, because you've got the opponent.
In golf, you do the same thing. You work on

(45:56):
your golf swing. You work on your golf swing, and
then you randomize everything by changing targets in your practice,
changing golf clubs in your your practice, going through your
entire routine of hitting shots as opposed to just one
after the other, one after the other, because it's harder
to do if you're just hitting one ball after another.
That's easy. But then if you have to give players

(46:20):
games and things they do in their practice, and I
think that's one of the things that we started do
we look at the way I look at the way
I follow a lot of tennis websites and look at
kind of games and strategies and different drills and stuff.
And in golf, it's just most people just do one
one thing over and over and over and over again.
And then once they get out on the golf course

(46:42):
and they hit a bad shot and they missed the fairway,
they don't really know what to do. And so you know,
if again similar in forehand, if you play a match
in tennis and the forehand isn't good, you've still got
to figure out a way to try and get the
ball back, construct points and stuff like that. So, um,

(47:03):
you know, there are a lot of similarities. And I
think the biggest similarity is for the players like yourself,
it's it's an individual sport. I think that's what people
are drawn to by golf. You're in charge. If you
make a mistake, it's you that's making it. If you succeed,
it's you that's succeeding. Whereas you know and in other

(47:26):
team sports, you can have a great game and lose.
And you know, um, I think the other thing that
I want to I want golfers that have played If
I'm looking at young athletes, um, you really want kids
in golf that have played other sports. Um. And the
worst thing for me as a golf instructor is to

(47:49):
get the kid that kind of been playing golf specifically
really since he was about eight years old. And you
get them when they're twelve or thirteen and they've never
played team sports. And I say to the parents all
the time, listen, you're can you can you get your
son or your daughter in a team sport if they're
eleven or twelve. Well, no, no, we just wanted to

(48:09):
focus on golf. And I'm like, you know, I get that,
But getting them into a team sport teaches them a lot.
And and I had a parents said, well, what's it
going to teach my son? And so I said, well, one,
your son's gonna realize that he can play really well
and the team can lose, and he can play really
really bad and the team can win. He has to
learn how to his performance and the way he performs

(48:34):
within unit. But if you've just only played tennis your
entire life. You can just become so sports and tennis specific,
and it's hard. Really. I find a lot of the
really early developing sports specific kids are very difficult to
coach because they don't know how to be coached because

(48:54):
they're in an individual sport and they don't the team sports.
If you play bad, you get taken out, right, they
take you out of the game. And so what I
always do with young golfers and you know, you'll you'll
be playing and you could you could understand it from
a tennis standpoint. You're asking someone to to hit a shot.
You know, in golf, we're working on doing this with

(49:16):
a seven iron, and we tell them where the target is,
and we have the hit balls to the target. And
if I'm working with the junior golfer and they've hit
it four or five times, you know, in the wrong direction,
I always say to then, listen, do you have an
understanding as to what we're trying to talk me through
the shot that you're trying to hit and it and
we've seen you hit the shot that we're trying to

(49:37):
hit before, so we know you can do it. And
you have a very clear understanding of your technique. But
you've just hit. From a practice standpoint, you've just hit
six bad shots in a row, and you didn't do
anything to correct that. But you tell me you have
a complete understanding as to what we're trying to do,
and we've seen you do it before. In a team sport,

(50:01):
if you messed up four or five times, and if
you if you were in America, if you are a quarterback,
and even in practice you threw four or five interceptions
in a row and a drill, if if it was
in high school, the coach would say, get out, get
somebody in here that wants to run the other And
in in team sports, you don't go practice when they

(50:24):
take you out of the game. You don't go work
on your technique and work on it. You basically stand there.
In hockey, if you mess up, they take you out
of the game and practice and you just go sit.
They take you out of the game, and then the
coaches and team sports will look at a player that
they've taken out because they weren't weren't performing, and they'll say,
from a coaching standpoint, do you want to get in

(50:47):
and do this the way that we've designed it and
showed you how to do it. And in team sports
you figure that out when they take you out. In
team sports, when you mess up and you get sad
the bench, you're taken out of the game. You want
to you figure it out with no practice. But in
golf and tennis, it's all about let me go practice,

(51:08):
let me go practice, let me go practice, let me
go practice. And so I try and talk to players
about Listen, you have to think about hitting the shot,
and you have to think about it the way that
you've designed the swing and all of that. So I
think to me, I use tennis the other tennis analogy

(51:29):
Danielle's all the time, the unforced error. You miss a fairway,
you miss greens, you don't get up and down, those
are unforced airs. And I say to players all the time,
you know, if you have a double bogie, if you're
playing competitive golf, double bogies and three putts and triple
bogies and big numbers, those are the unforced errors you
if you don't have, Like if you think about when

(51:51):
you play golf, if you could get rid of the
one or two double bogies around you have and the
one or two sometimes three three puts you have have
you know, if you think about I always like to
have players, especially amateurs, add up the amount of three
putts and the amount of double, triple and quadruple bogies. Right.

(52:11):
So let's say you play your handicapper and you're trying
to you know, break ninety and and and really improve,
and you look at the way you played, you said, well,
I had four three putts and I had two double bogies. Right,
So you turned the three puts into two pots. That's
four shots, and you turn the double bogies into bogies.

(52:32):
Let's say that that's six shots. So let's say you
shot and all you did was make two more bogies
and have less three puts. You you shave four or five, six,
seven shots off your score without making birdies and eagles.

(52:53):
So eliminating the unforced error, to me, is is very
the biggest similarity between golf and tennis, because if you
make a bunch of unforced errors, your winners have to
be unbelievable. Okay, so the one message you would have
for my game is just no less unforced errors. Yeah,

(53:15):
I mean, if you can think about what strategy as
much as you think about technique, and I think thinking
about what to do if you if you get into trouble,
the single most important thing to do is just get
it back and play so that you can hit a
full shot from the fairway. But the average golfer gets

(53:36):
in trouble off the off the tea and then okay,
well I've got to try and get it as far
down by the green as I possibly can. So they're
a little bit more aggressive, and they're under the trees,
but they're going to try and hit too much club
and the ball gets up, hits the tree, goes backwards,
and now they're even further back, and so and then
they try and go out again, and then what they
eventually do is they just chip out. And I mean,

(54:00):
I'm convinced that for someone that's trying to break a
hundred or ninety or eighty for the first time, I'm
pretty convinced that if I never worked with them on
the driving range, on their technique, and I just went
out on the golf course and walked around with a
player and just told them what club to hit off
the t where to aim, and what to do, and

(54:22):
what clubs to choose, and which targets and where to go.
I'm convinced that you could shave five to seven shots
off their game without doing anything from a technique exampoint,
not changing anything, because I think most golfers they just
don't think logically about golf because you know, like you said,
in tennis, the points are coming so fast that you're

(54:47):
you're thinking and moving on the fly. In golf, if
you you hit four or five bad shots in a
row and then you've got a long walk to the
next tea, it's just in your brain. You're just and
then the next hole's got water on it and bunkers
on it. Because I think a lot of golfers, again
going back to the shaving shots, most golfers struggle with

(55:10):
with golf. I see this a lot in putting, but
a lot in in full swing as well. Is they're
just trying to not hit bad shots. And you know
that right as a tennis player, you're just trying to
not hit it. And the worst thing I think is
a professional athlete is if you're not trying to be aggressive,
like if you're just trying to get the second serve,

(55:32):
I'm not even going from my big serve and I'm
missing that one as well. Whereas even if you're trying
to be aggressive and you miss it, you say, okay,
well listen, I went for it. But if you're really
trying to play safe and you're making mistakes, you it
destroys you as a golfer. And I think a lot
of golfers, you know, putting, You know a lot of

(55:53):
players say they're bad putters, and I say, you know,
what are you trying to do? They said, you know,
I'm I'm just trying not to three putt here, And
what do you do that's to do yourself? No, I'm
just trying to get it into the fairway. No, No,
where are you trying to aim? What shape are you
trying to hit? What shot are you trying to hit?

(56:13):
And I think the power of thinking logically about what
you're trying to do as opposed to, you know, what
you're trying not to do, because um, so many golfers
I think just struggle because they just don't think logically
about where they're trying to hit it, where they're trying
to aim. And you know, I talk a lot to
tour players, you know, conservative aggressive swings to conservative targets,

(56:40):
really committed aggressive swings to conservative targets like you know,
we in tennis. If you're trying to hit forehand, doesn't
mean you're pushing the forehand back right. It doesn't mean
that you're not. You're just basically maybe taking a little
bit less aggressive angles, but you're still making a very committed, yeah,

(57:02):
powerful swing. You just basically giving the ball a little
bit more air or you know, just trying to maybe
cut down a little bit on how much of the
angles you're taking. So um, yeah, I think that's also
why athletes are drawn. You know. I was talking to
Sergio Garcia this week because he lives in Austin. He's
on the putting green and I said, and I said

(57:23):
to him, first thing, I said to him, how's the
tennis game? He said, you know, tennis game is pretty good.
Adam Scott is a very very good tennis player. Um.
And then we have a player um on tour who's
you know one already this year Daniel Burger, whose dad
you'll work for the U you know US tennis. And
you know Burger is a really really good tennis player.
So um. You know, I think our worlds are so

(57:45):
drawn to each other because they're just yeah, so so
many similarities. But I think at the end of the day,
just from the last couple of minutes to sum it up,
it's uh, it comes down to what's going on between
the ears. Yeah, And I do think that golf is
golf is a very very simple game that tends to

(58:06):
confuse a lot of smart people because because you're not
moving in the golf swing. When you're making a golf swing,
you probably think that there are thousands different things that
are going wrong. But really there's probably one, maybe two
major things that are going wrong that are affecting everything else,

(58:26):
and if you can fix those things, but um, the
biggest way you as a golfer can improve. So everybody listening,
the single biggest difference between you and Rory McElroy is
nine percent of the time when Roy McElroy it's seven iron,
the golf ball goes into the air, he hits it

(58:48):
in the center of the face, the golf ball goes here.
He never hits it fat, He doesn't hit it thin.
Maybe once a year out of the rough if the
lie is really bad, but from a flat iiving range lie.
The biggest difference between everyone listening and Rory McElroy. Dustin
Johnson joints, because every time they make swing with an iron,

(59:09):
the golf ball goes near. If you focus on making
sure the golf ball gets into the air every time,
think about and focus on the contact and the quality
of the contact, the direction you hit. It is easier
to fix if you can hit it solid all the time,
So you should be able to go in. An easy

(59:30):
way to do that is if you're starting off, take
your lob wedge and just go hit next time you
go practice, rather than hitting drivers and three irons and
five irons, just go take your sand wedge and see
if you can hit the tire bucket of golf balls
with your sand wedge kind of waste tied back and
waste tied through, so kind of just here to hear

(59:52):
and hit every single one of them in the air
and hit every single one of them solid. If you
can't do that for in a fifty balls in a row,
a hundred balls in the row from short positions when
we go to longer positions makes it really really difficult
to be consistent. So learning that consistency with the shorter

(01:00:14):
clubs and being able to hit it solid all the time.
I mean, if if I had a Genie bout Daniel.
Next time you play golf. If I said, listen, I've
got a Genie bottle, I can rub it on the
first hole. I've got two things I can tell you.
If you want to hit draws right to left draws,
or you want to hit fades left to right fades,
I can rub the Genie bottle and guarantee you the

(01:00:35):
shape and the curve on the golf ball that you're
gonna hit today with every golf club in your bag.
Or I can guarantee you and rub the Genie bottle
that I can guarantee you will hit every single full
swing shot today and short game shot solid. I can't
tell you which direction it's going to go, but you
will hit it solid in the middle of the club face.

(01:00:55):
Which would you choose, You'd say, listen, if I hit
it solid, I can figure out how to aim. I
can figure out the direction it's going to go. But
if I don't, if I'm topping it, it's not getting
in the air. If it's off the toe, or I'm
hitting behind it, how it curves, it really doesn't make
it different if it's not solid. So focus on contact
and um, you know, think about golf as a movement

(01:01:19):
pattern that is moving like an athlete. Anything that you've
done as an athlete, think about how you would move
and how you would kind of get your body to
move to the golfer, and I think you'll be much
better off for sure, perfect solid quality and in the
air off I go in the air, claude. Thank you

(01:01:40):
so so much, parties. Oh my gosh, it's been amazing.
I I feel like we could do another twenty episodes.
And I'm sure everyone listening to us and have enjoyed this,
So anytime we'll do it again. And hopefully I'll be
able to help you with your golf swing soon and
you can be able to help me with mine back
because let me tell you something, my back can is horrendous.

(01:02:01):
I mean I can, I can go forehand, but the
backhand is it's not good. Don't worry, we'll we'll work
on it just the same way. Just be solid, don't
try to do too don't try to be too too fancy.
And the best thing about me is a golf instructor.
Is everything I tell people to do in tennis when
I play when are in golf. When I play tennis,

(01:02:23):
I can't do any of it. I'm breaking rackets. I
think I'm great. I'm trying to hit the inside and out.
It's awful. So I'll take I'll take whatever help I
can get perfect. So we'll do the exchange. Let's hope
our both games will become better. You have been tennis
main golf. I hope you have enjoyed today's episode and
getting to know my guests a bit better. If you
feel like you to subscribed to us so you don't

(01:02:45):
miss any of the action. Also, let me know your
comments or suggestions on my social media channels, and have
a lovely rest of your day. By