June 5, 2021 • 33 mins
Daniela discusses the important and timely topic of sports psychology with transformation and mental strength coach Dana Dúbravská. Dana and Daniella discuss how the stigma of psychology and mental health has changed dramatically in the last 25 years and the current pressures that professional athletes are under and have to balance on and off the court. Dana's unique perspective and expertise in psychology and neuroscience address the DNA of the psychology needed for the modern athlete in part 1 of 2 on this relevant topic.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Well, first of all, I have to say, um, to
have my next guest, it's something very special because obviously
she's not only one of my best friends, but one
person that on the topic that's going on around the
tennis world at the moment, I couldn't imagine anyone else
better to talk to. So I want to thank big
time Danna for your time and for being my next
(00:25):
guest on the DNA podcast. Thank you so much for
being here. It's my pleasure. Well, let's go straight to
the point, and that is, um, the topic that we've
been all talking about the last couple of days, I
would say even weeks, um, and that is the mental
health in professional sports. What does it exactly mean to you? Well,
(00:51):
to me, it's a it's a very personal topic obviously
because for the past I would say twelve years, I
work as a mental coach. But but it's started even
before because I personally started to work with my mind
when I was around twenty one, so so so for
me it's a natural part of my life. But but
(01:12):
those twenty something years ago, uh, it was not and
it's still not. So to me, it's something that I'm
actually really happy that resonates in the tennis world now,
because to me, it's it's it's like breathing air. It's
it's something that should be natural for anyone, not even
in professional sport. So so to me personally, I think
(01:34):
it's amazing that that the talk is uh is uh
that the that the talk of the moment now, So
would you say you feel a little bit of a
shift or change in this department. I think it's a
shift in general, but but also in in tennis. Uh.
For example, um my my mom she worked as a
(01:57):
supports psychologist with someone on the tours twenties six or
twenty seven years ago, and uh and uh the tennis
player she used to introduce her as her aunt because
she she was ashamed to say, like I have beside
my coach, I have a psychologist on the floor. So
so I think it's amazing for the sport that for example,
(02:17):
now last year's champion, um IgA, she she is open
speaking about having a psychologist as a part of the team.
So to me, within the tennis but also in a
within the world in general, I think the there is
a huge ship, but a lot needs to be done
(02:37):
as well. Still like it's going the right direction, but
we are far from not having no prejudices or stigma.
So when you see say there should be still done
a lot um in a in an athletes life, how
much if we can put it down to maybe percentage,
the mental health and the work on it should be
(02:59):
part of the package. So we all know these days,
how especially the tennis plash, but athletes in general spends
so much time in the gym getting physically ready tactically.
I don't think tennis could be anywhere better than it
is right now. Nutritions all of that. How much space
there should be for for the mental work? I would say,
(03:21):
of course, it's hard to put in percentage because it's
it's personal for each athlete. But in a way I
would say, uh, somehow it's more important than before because
the pressure is different. You know, it correlates with with
the with the world in general, whether you're in business
or in sports, the pressure because of for example, social
(03:43):
media is much higher. Therefore, I think the it's much
harder to keep privacy. So I think the mental part
somehow should be at least more important than it used
to be. But it's hard. I mean, it's always been important,
it should be important, and you know, it changes. At
one stage of a career you perhaps need to work
(04:05):
more on your mental fitness and mental strength. Other part
maybe not so much, but in general it should be
relevant hard. So would you say, um, at the beginning
of your career, there should be more focused on it,
or actually more later when maybe you have more doubts
you've had because you've been on the tour for such
(04:27):
a long time. It's harder to forgive yourself because you
already have the experience. UM, at least that's what I
found personally that mentally it was getting tougher in a
very strange way towards the later stages of my career,
where at the beginning you know everything's new, you kind
of um playing a lot on your instincts. I would say,
(04:48):
there's not so much thinking, but it gets harder. At
least that's how it was for me later on. How
would you see That depends on the on the person,
because show us is different, each inherits different no psychology
or different mental setup. And then we have a social
environment that shakes as our parents are early coaches, and
(05:11):
then later on, so I think I would say there
are different challenges for a different stage, but of course,
uh uh. It can be a situation someone needs to
work more later, but you can have other other players
that that for them. If they put a lot of
effort at the beginning, they can somehow uh you know,
(05:32):
use that later on and that then just you know,
they're trying to keep keeping they don't need to invest
that much. So I think it depends on on on
the person Alright, well, what it really actually means the
mental work. We're gonna get to that a little bit
later where we're gonna be more specific. But so the
question I want to ask you, and that is to me,
(05:53):
the one that kind of resonates the most with me
these days, is how do the players go about the
social media these days? Um to me, the example from
last year seeing IgA BioNTech not using her mobile for
two weeks and winning a slam, it's not a rocket science.
You are in here and now you do the work
on the court. You don't have any destructions. These are
(06:14):
the results. Having said that, I understand also kind of
the brand positioning of the players and what the company's
requirements and the sponsors are. But at the same time,
to me, it's so clear what you have to do
as an athlete to get the results. So how do
you find the balance in between that I would say
(06:36):
again it's really personal and social media or or just
anything that has to do with mobile phones. It's a
it's a hot topic in general because you can get addicted,
you know, to to social media, playing games or anything.
And I think it's up to the person and the
(06:56):
team as such, coaches, family and everybody to to to
to discuss the strategy and and and to to be
open about whether it helps or or it doesn't. And
and you know, the player and the team can have
the feel for that, you know, and and if I
mean I think it's a wonderful strategy. If if they
(07:17):
feel and and and you know, have experience from previous
tournaments that it's a distraction, then to just have it
off for for two weeks, I mean that that's that
that might be a wonderful strategy. Or to set up
like do just one hour in the morning or two
hours in the evening and anything works. You just need
to be sensitive whether it moves the player forward or
(07:38):
it blocks him or or her in the in the performance,
because for example, in a Grand Slam, those two weeks
should be about tennis you know, you can worry about
promoting yourself, be building your brand, or or you know,
fulfilling you know, some duties to sponsors later on, or
or you can even have somebody else do the social
(07:59):
media while you know, the tournaments on if you have
a contract with a sponsor. So I think really like
each of us should be aware there's a danger of
distraction of becoming addicted because it's a complex topic. It
really like, uh, you know, uh it it um goes
(08:19):
to the same circuit in the brain, is a dopamine circuit,
which is also when we are addicted to other things,
even to sports or exercising. So I mean it is neurologically, uh,
something that we can get addicted to and that you know,
we should have this awareness and then uh listen to
ourselves how it interacts with us, how we feel, and
(08:43):
we should set up the best strategy for for for
for that part of our personal or and also tennis life.
When you talk about the addiction, is it the addiction
to to the power where you get because of the
followers or attention from it, or the addiction to following
(09:07):
someone and just kind of randomly going through things. It
can be both and then other things. Now it can
be distraction now when you are in a biggest tournament
of your life, because each one you are at is
the biggest at the moment, and you feel tremendous pressure.
(09:28):
So it's just just going through you know, Instagram or anything.
It can be a form of easing pressure and for
someone it can be helpful. So so that person if
it's just looking and you know, it's not influencing me
or I am not envious or I'm not distracted, and
if it works to realize energy, it's okay or attention.
(09:49):
But if it gives h you know me, doubts about
myself or or if it really no message up with
my focus, then I should not do it. So it's
really like it's really about each person and how the
reaction is and and we should be sensitive enough to
know whether it moves me forward to my goal, which
(10:12):
is winning a tournament or a match, or if it
puts me away from that goal. So could we compared
to like, okay, maybe a glass of wine after match.
It's not a bad thing because it relaxes you, but
if you drink the whole bottle, you might have a
problem the next day. If you want to play. But
you know, obviously in history there are players that drink
the whole bottle and want image the next day, you know. So,
(10:35):
I mean it's not so clear. This this is uh
so important about the mental health and about working with
your potential of your mind. That there is no solution
that fits everybody. There is normal like you do these
ten steps and each of thee get the same result.
It doesn't work like it. And that's why we need,
(10:56):
uh like each of us to work on our own
into each and sensitivity, listen to feedback from our coaches, friends, parents, partners,
and so on and and and and really have the
sensitivity what really nurtures us and moves us forward and
what doesn't Because the same thing like a glass of
(11:16):
wine at the one moment can help me, but the
same glass of wine in another moment can can really
make a trouble. So so it's about feeling the right
moment for the glass of wine or for for Instagram,
or for going to meet the friends, going to a
restaurants or watching a movie in room, or training double
(11:37):
amounts of normally do for anything. You know, even for
the physical training. You probably know it from training physically
you really need to know the right amount. You cannot
perhaps train too much physically before an important that it
has to be the right amount or the right strategy
or the right moves that you train. So basically, the
(11:59):
mind is actually like the body that the more I
feel the body, the more I know, okay, how much
of this exercise I should do. And the more I
do it, I kind of get connected to my body,
so I know, okay, this is what I need. I
don't need anything more or less. So the more we
train the body, the more we kind of understand ourselves. Right,
(12:21):
this is actually working for me, or this is going
against me, exactly. It's about the same kind of awareness,
because the mind and body are just different sides of
the coin in a way, because we inherit some physiology,
We inherite some you know, muscle, some some talent for
for different sports and so on, and and we we
(12:43):
inherit some mind, to to put it simply, but we
can train and change both. You know, you have tennis
players who were talented, but you have some they are
so called less talented. I mean it's not the perhaps
the right language, but but those if they work hard,
they could achieve the same success then those so called
talented ones and so so the same potential is with
(13:06):
the mind. We have we have something, but it's not definitely.
We can work with it. And if if we know ourselves,
if we are aware about how we react to certain things,
how we interact with certain things, what goes in our
head in terms of thinking of judgment, valuation, assumptions and
(13:26):
so on, we can work with that and move on.
But it's about the same kind of awareness or sensitivity
as with the body. So it's pretty much the heritage
we get from our parents, grandparents. It's pretty much like say,
we have a starting shape of our body, and at
(13:48):
at the beginning of the career we can be really slow.
We are not as explosive, but there are exercises, there
are ways to work on that and and get better.
The same goes for the mind. Whatever we heard age,
there's always ways how to change that and exactly exactly,
and we do something when we are kids, then we
do something else in our teenage years. Also in terms
(14:09):
of like tennis training or you know, some players who
are not tennis players in there were six you know,
they switch sports and so on, and and so it's
it's what we the genetics would be inherit. But then
also in terms of mine, it's the social set up.
You know, the parents, if we have siblings, you know,
the teachers at school. And then in terms of tennis,
(14:29):
it's it's your coach or or you know, if you
are in a part of a group that trains, then
is that social environment. So so we get we get genetics,
and then we we have some you know, attitudes, or
we have some uh, you know, opinions or you know,
we value certain things as certain emotions, qualities or behavior
(14:50):
with value we don't want others. And and the same
is with the body. You know, we want to do uh,
just some type of you know training in order to
achieve our goal. And also, like you said, everyone is
so different that for some you know, I love to
do intervals on a treadmill, but someone else likes to
get the car deal done on a bike and whatever,
(15:11):
and they use less effort to do that, so it's
better for them to go that way. Um, and I
guess the same goals for the mental work that maybe
for someone they can't possibly find ways how to do
asen as long as as often as they should be,
but maybe they do something else is that how it
works in the mind as well. It's very similar. What's important,
(15:37):
especially in a in a professional sport, that you need
to balance between balance and one sidedness because there are moments,
like in general in life for mental health you need balance,
but it's not balanced in terms of like fifty fifty,
but it's balanced that you need to express all kinds
(15:58):
of emotions or behave years or or qualities. But when
you want to achieve high performance, it's a business in sports,
in anything, for a short or even longer sometimes period
of time, you need to focus on just one side
of the equation, on on being mentally strong, being focused,
(16:20):
being aware, being at the moment, and so on. But
in general sometimes you also need to be unfocused and
just you know, do whatever and systematically. But in in
when you prepare, for example, for a Grand Slam or
during those for for two or three weeks, you need
(16:41):
to be totally focused. You need to be mentally strong,
you cannot give up, and so on. So so uh,
within the whole like tennis year, I would say, for example,
in terms of a mental mind, you have a strong
like a huge chance where you really need to be
one side in terms of you know, even the physical,
(17:02):
but even the mental. But the magic is then to
balance for that one side and sidedness at other times.
I don't know if if if it makes sense, but
I mean you cannot you know, just uh uh you
know be said it. You cannot be like said or depressed.
You can. You have to have that at the different moments.
(17:25):
And and this is the magic. I mean it's easy
easy to to say, it's more difficult to to execute
it or do but but you need to remember it's
not possible to be all lier like mentally strong, focus, happy,
energized and so on. There needs to be time for
the other polarity because that's how the mind or the
(17:47):
human psychey works. But in tennis you have you don't
have the luxury like in business or in other professions
that you can no switch during the shorter intervals. But
in tennis you usually it's really intense to to that
moment of the tournament and the brakes are not not
(18:08):
not as extensive and so all, so how do you
fulfill the other but the other part of the emotion
in a in a healthy way. That's that's why again
the team is important and uh and and you First
of all, you need to be aware that it needs
(18:28):
to be done, that that you need to have time
for for the Let's call it negative because I mean
it's not negative because each part of our personality has
its positive aspects. It's not always like just to be
like hard working and and and uh and focus and
(18:49):
smart and and so on. It's just positive. You know,
hardworking is fine, but when you for example, in in
a in the tennis, if you work too hard, you
can have an injury and then you you are not
able to perform in the tournament. So hard working there
needs to be a certain amount. And and again lazy
(19:10):
it's not good if you don't train for two months
before important tournament. But if you're lazy, it can help
you to recover. So there are moments where where it's
required or whether it's helpful for you to be lazy. So,
first of all, I think what's important, and it's not
only for athletes but in life to stop seeing it
(19:31):
as two groups of uh you know, and one has
uh you know stick around it. This is a group
of positive qualities, emotions and behaviors, and here's one big
group of negative ones, which is the laziness slowness and
so on. We should stop seeing it this way. And
we should remember also too much of a good thing,
(19:51):
you know how the saying goes too much of a
good thing can be a problem. And on the other hand,
those qualities, emotions, behaviors that we usually called negative, they
have some gifts, they have some positive aspects and positive
side and and we need the right balance. And then
it starts with acknowledging this only when you when you
(20:13):
know that even depression can have a positive aspect or sadness,
because it can be self reflection. I can I can
come up with some you know, reflection about me which
can move me forward. I can you know, see where
the problem was, how should I move forward? And so on.
So even that part when you are alone, uh and
(20:36):
and and said and and uh and somehow uh insecure,
can give you some insights that can be valuable on
your journey. So so so the first thing is not
to see it as a one group of you know,
good things and another group of Baptist And then I
can start to develop the sensitivity what should be UH
(21:00):
beneficial or what what is what is bene sufficial for me? Here?
And now No, it's it's it's the same awareness we
discussed before that I need to know that now I
have to be slow or I should just stop and
not do anything because it will nurture me. And then uh,
next time, I really need to work hard and train
(21:22):
because that will help me reach my goal. So to
make um just one example, I say, I think most
of the tennis players are hard workers. So how in
a healthy way do they fulfill the other part of
big lazy? And what's important to to say here as well,
(21:44):
is that if we don't do it proactively, it might
happen that, uh, it will catch us unexpectedly. Now, if
if I don't, for example, uh, you know I have
the laziness in my life in a positive way, then
I can get injured and I will be you know,
bed ridden, and I won't be competing at my favorite
(22:07):
through neam and for example. So again it's it's a
trial and error, and it's learning for each person where
you can find the little slot for the laziness, just
like watch a movie or you know, for for each
of us, the laziness is about something else, you know,
for for somebody's not not cooking or not you know,
(22:29):
making the bed or uh. For example, in tennis, it's
probably what would you say, it's it's not training. What
what's laziness in the life of tennis player playing golf? Yes, yes,
for example, because I think that the laziness, the positive
laziness in terms of life of a positive professional tennis player,
(22:51):
should be not shouldn't have to be around tennis, I say.
And maybe it's I just wanted to add, as you
know very well, that the best example in my own
experience of that not fulfilling, because I always was worried
when I take rest that I'm kind of, you know,
(23:13):
losing losing time in my tennis career, and it was
almost impossible for me to to find a way how
to have holidays. And then what happened was when I
was on Sena Chord at Winblad, at four all in
the third set at US the most important point of
of the tournament for me, I would just suddenly not
(23:34):
run after the boat because that laziness took over. Like
you said, if we are not aware of it, then
it takes unfortunately over in the worst worst times for us.
And it's exactly what you said earlier that the body
knows if we listened to the body. The body knows
and the same goals is the mind. That they talked
(23:56):
to each other in a way. So so when when
we are not balanced and we we are one sided
in terms of just working hard, the body helps, uh,
the mind to realize the laziness. But but in an
unfortunate way. Now this is what we don't want. But
you know, the mind works like physics. You know, it's
(24:21):
it's it's about balance. And once it gets too much,
you know, the mind starts to balance it. The mind
is the body starts to balance it. And and and
it's better when it's not compensated unexpectedly like through an
injury in terms of a tennis player, but it's better
if we are ahead of it in terms of uh,
(24:41):
you know, also emotion wise, in terms of for example,
anger or aggressiveness. I think this is something that's really
important for a tennis player. And and they actually, uh,
you guys needed uh in the career and when when
somebody was brought up that was like a nice and
light and to be arrogant or aggressive was not a
(25:03):
value in the community. It's it's something that needs to
be you know, uh, the in the in the life
of a tennis player eventually because it will be missing there.
So there's there's so many polarities in the in the
tennis that need to be find tune. Uh so they
don't find tune themselves, no, because then then when you
(25:25):
don't embrace the anger and its positive side, then you
are really angery in the court that you get punished
for it, either by losing or you do something that's
no no, okay is the referee and so on. So
so you really need the anger and aggressiveness to be
in the game, not in other parts of your behavior.
(25:47):
So can we really say I find it really fascinating
and we never talked about it this way that can
you actually call compare it in the same way the
mind to the bad because as an athlete, I think
this is where we can really relate to it. As
professional athletes. I know my body is so well that
(26:07):
as soon as I pull something or I uh you know,
do something to my muscle, I can almost judge it
as a physio because you know it's been my it's
been my computer for the last thirty years. Also, as
soon as I push it too much into training, I
know right then it overdid it or because there's been
so much work done. Is that the acquill aqui. It's
(26:31):
just the same thing for the mind that the more
you work on it, the more you work with the polarities,
you are much more aware, like, Okay, then now you
know I needed to be aggressive, I wasn't. I need
to work on that. Um, it makes you much more
aware the more you do the mental work, right, Definitely,
it's it's I think it's a wonderful metaphor. And the
(26:53):
actually I never thought about it because, uh, you know,
I have awareness in the of my body, but I
think you are on the top when you are a
professional athlete, you are on a completely different level. And
and I would say exactly because the mind, you have
the conscious part and you have the unconscious part. So
(27:15):
you have something that you are aware of and you
know about yourself, but there are things that that you
don't know about yourself because in the unconscious part, you
have thought, you have ideas, you have emotions, you have
all the things you don't want to be or you
don't want to leave or act at the moment. But
they are not uh, somewhere else away from you. They
(27:38):
are still part of your mind. They are just somewhere
else where you currently don't don't uh played out or
you don't leave it, and and you should know also
that part of yourself. So it doesn't you know, surprise
you and and and the more you you you are
aware of yourself, the more you you try find your
(28:00):
balance and and and feel the moment. UH. In psychology,
we say you're expanding your consciousness. You mean that means
you are aware of more things about yourself, You know
more eactly reactions better No, So so it's it's it's important.
I think the same way as you learn to know
your body, you need to learn to know your mind.
(28:21):
You know what you react, what makes you angry? What what? What?
What do you admire? And so on? Through these uh,
you know things you can learn about yourself. You know,
how have you react when your coach does this? Have
you react when your parents do this, when your partner,
your children, and so on and and you can get
awareness and then you can see, Okay, if I do
(28:43):
this or if I think or feel this, it has
a reaction for for my environment. So I think it's
it's it's should to me. It seems it's very similar
to what you're talking about. The body. You know how
I always compare everything to tennis right up to me.
It's something that's coming to my mind now. It's like
you know, you go to a gym and first you
(29:04):
learn how to squad, and you're like, oh my gosh,
I actually know how to square. But the more you
do it, you start to realize, now, okay, I'm using
this muscle um and actually, if I engage my core,
I'm going to be so much more effective. That's going
to translate to hitting better for hands and backends. So
the more sensitive, if you become of of your body,
(29:24):
the more you start to realize how much potential there is,
and that there are muscles that you haven't even used before,
but they are still there. Like you said, even the
unconscious mind, it's still part of us. It's not like
it's on another cloud. But the more we work on
on it, the more you're like, oh, I didn't even
know I had these muscles, and oh my gosh, I
can be so much more powerful just because being aware
(29:48):
of what we've got. Exactly, because once you start paying attention,
you can see the results. Once you start paying attention
and if you start bringing the poalities that you normally
don't you bring them, invite them and and do realize
them in your life. You can see the shift and
(30:09):
and that's the same when you train. You know, you
you you live some weight and then after months you
can live more and you can see it. You can
see the result. Uh and and you feel it and
and that's wonderful and and just it's the same with
the awareness of of the present moment and with living
the the right poality at the moment. Once you learn
(30:32):
how to do it, of course you know it's shifts
and uh, you do it right five times and the
six it doesn't work, but but you know, just the
effort and and you know the awareness will will bring
you a different quality of life. Or in terms of
a tennis player, you will because you know in the
(30:52):
tennis you know that sometimes you need to do uh this,
some other time you need to do something else. You
can you know, serve the same way the whole match.
You know, or you need to run and sometimes you
need to you know, do something else, or you need
to do bolly and then you need another shot and
(31:14):
and you know it's about the right moment. Or you
know what I love about tennis, it's like of course
you you you are allowed to lose some points, but
it has to be at the right moment. You know.
You you can you know, uh lose a ball, but
it's not when you have a match ball, you know,
or some several of them. So so there are points
(31:37):
you are allowed to you lose, and others that are not.
And this is like being in the right moment. You know.
A lot of times a player plays better tennis but
loses the match than the other one because the other
one in the right moment, use the right shot or
the right mindset, and and and it's the same with
the mind. You you cannot always be happy, you cannot
(32:00):
always be focused. But if you are unfocused, it has
to be in moments when it doesn't damage your journey
to the goal. No, so so I have to be lazy,
I have to be uh the stupid things now, drink
the bottle of behind or party or anything. But it
has to be in the right moment in terms of
(32:21):
my you know, for example tennis here, that's that's why
it's important to have the brains. And a lot of
players do it wonderfully. You know. They switch family time
and and and and training uh and and uh and
I think that's that that's the key. And and and
then you know, find the emotions or the qualities or
(32:41):
behavior that matters the most. And and for example, I
don't know, I want to be seen as an honest
person or I want to be seen as somebody who
has the right values or who is not ignorant. Uh So,
so I need to look at those polarities. I am humble,
and you know the positive of humble, I am arrogant
(33:02):
or I am I don't know what. And I need
to explore what's good about the other part which I
consider negative, and try to put it somewhere in my life.
And I do it step by step, and then I
see the change the same way as I do it
in the gym. Now when when I try to bring balance,
and the balance doesn't have to be you know, I
(33:24):
can be all dad. I have to be focused, and
it's just two times a year. I have to be
consciously unfocused because I want to proactively do it. I
don't want the mind and the body do it for
me in an unfortunate Hi. There, I hope you have
(33:45):
enjoyed today's episode of the Real DNA podcast. Don't forget
to subscribe it on Spotify, Apple podcast, or wherever you
get your podcast from
Well, first of all, I have to say, um, to
have my next guest, it's something very special because obviously
she's not only one of my best friends, but one
person that on the topic that's going on around the
tennis world at the moment, I couldn't imagine anyone else
better to talk to. So I want to thank big
time Danna for your time and for being my next
(00:25):
guest on the DNA podcast. Thank you so much for
being here. It's my pleasure. Well, let's go straight to
the point, and that is, um, the topic that we've
been all talking about the last couple of days, I
would say even weeks, um, and that is the mental
health in professional sports. What does it exactly mean to you? Well,
(00:51):
to me, it's a it's a very personal topic obviously
because for the past I would say twelve years, I
work as a mental coach. But but it's started even
before because I personally started to work with my mind
when I was around twenty one, so so so for
me it's a natural part of my life. But but
(01:12):
those twenty something years ago, uh, it was not and
it's still not. So to me, it's something that I'm
actually really happy that resonates in the tennis world now,
because to me, it's it's it's like breathing air. It's
it's something that should be natural for anyone, not even
in professional sport. So so to me personally, I think
(01:34):
it's amazing that that the talk is uh is uh
that the that the talk of the moment now, So
would you say you feel a little bit of a
shift or change in this department. I think it's a
shift in general, but but also in in tennis. Uh.
For example, um my my mom she worked as a
(01:57):
supports psychologist with someone on the tours twenties six or
twenty seven years ago, and uh and uh the tennis
player she used to introduce her as her aunt because
she she was ashamed to say, like I have beside
my coach, I have a psychologist on the floor. So
so I think it's amazing for the sport that for example,
(02:17):
now last year's champion, um IgA, she she is open
speaking about having a psychologist as a part of the team.
So to me, within the tennis but also in a
within the world in general, I think the there is
a huge ship, but a lot needs to be done
(02:37):
as well. Still like it's going the right direction, but
we are far from not having no prejudices or stigma.
So when you see say there should be still done
a lot um in a in an athletes life, how
much if we can put it down to maybe percentage,
the mental health and the work on it should be
(02:59):
part of the package. So we all know these days,
how especially the tennis plash, but athletes in general spends
so much time in the gym getting physically ready tactically.
I don't think tennis could be anywhere better than it
is right now. Nutritions all of that. How much space
there should be for for the mental work? I would say,
(03:21):
of course, it's hard to put in percentage because it's
it's personal for each athlete. But in a way I
would say, uh, somehow it's more important than before because
the pressure is different. You know, it correlates with with
the with the world in general, whether you're in business
or in sports, the pressure because of for example, social
(03:43):
media is much higher. Therefore, I think the it's much
harder to keep privacy. So I think the mental part
somehow should be at least more important than it used
to be. But it's hard. I mean, it's always been important,
it should be important, and you know, it changes. At
one stage of a career you perhaps need to work
(04:05):
more on your mental fitness and mental strength. Other part
maybe not so much, but in general it should be
relevant hard. So would you say, um, at the beginning
of your career, there should be more focused on it,
or actually more later when maybe you have more doubts
you've had because you've been on the tour for such
(04:27):
a long time. It's harder to forgive yourself because you
already have the experience. UM, at least that's what I
found personally that mentally it was getting tougher in a
very strange way towards the later stages of my career,
where at the beginning you know everything's new, you kind
of um playing a lot on your instincts. I would say,
(04:48):
there's not so much thinking, but it gets harder. At
least that's how it was for me later on. How
would you see That depends on the on the person,
because show us is different, each inherits different no psychology
or different mental setup. And then we have a social
environment that shakes as our parents are early coaches, and
(05:11):
then later on, so I think I would say there
are different challenges for a different stage, but of course,
uh uh. It can be a situation someone needs to
work more later, but you can have other other players
that that for them. If they put a lot of
effort at the beginning, they can somehow uh you know,
(05:32):
use that later on and that then just you know,
they're trying to keep keeping they don't need to invest
that much. So I think it depends on on on
the person Alright, well, what it really actually means the
mental work. We're gonna get to that a little bit
later where we're gonna be more specific. But so the
question I want to ask you, and that is to me,
(05:53):
the one that kind of resonates the most with me
these days, is how do the players go about the
social media these days? Um to me, the example from
last year seeing IgA BioNTech not using her mobile for
two weeks and winning a slam, it's not a rocket science.
You are in here and now you do the work
on the court. You don't have any destructions. These are
(06:14):
the results. Having said that, I understand also kind of
the brand positioning of the players and what the company's
requirements and the sponsors are. But at the same time,
to me, it's so clear what you have to do
as an athlete to get the results. So how do
you find the balance in between that I would say
(06:36):
again it's really personal and social media or or just
anything that has to do with mobile phones. It's a
it's a hot topic in general because you can get addicted,
you know, to to social media, playing games or anything.
And I think it's up to the person and the
(06:56):
team as such, coaches, family and everybody to to to
to discuss the strategy and and and to to be
open about whether it helps or or it doesn't. And
and you know, the player and the team can have
the feel for that, you know, and and if I
mean I think it's a wonderful strategy. If if they
(07:17):
feel and and and you know, have experience from previous
tournaments that it's a distraction, then to just have it
off for for two weeks, I mean that that's that
that might be a wonderful strategy. Or to set up
like do just one hour in the morning or two
hours in the evening and anything works. You just need
to be sensitive whether it moves the player forward or
(07:38):
it blocks him or or her in the in the performance,
because for example, in a Grand Slam, those two weeks
should be about tennis you know, you can worry about
promoting yourself, be building your brand, or or you know,
fulfilling you know, some duties to sponsors later on, or
or you can even have somebody else do the social
(07:59):
media while you know, the tournaments on if you have
a contract with a sponsor. So I think really like
each of us should be aware there's a danger of
distraction of becoming addicted because it's a complex topic. It
really like, uh, you know, uh it it um goes
(08:19):
to the same circuit in the brain, is a dopamine circuit,
which is also when we are addicted to other things,
even to sports or exercising. So I mean it is neurologically, uh,
something that we can get addicted to and that you know,
we should have this awareness and then uh listen to
ourselves how it interacts with us, how we feel, and
(08:43):
we should set up the best strategy for for for
for that part of our personal or and also tennis life.
When you talk about the addiction, is it the addiction
to to the power where you get because of the
followers or attention from it, or the addiction to following
(09:07):
someone and just kind of randomly going through things. It
can be both and then other things. Now it can
be distraction now when you are in a biggest tournament
of your life, because each one you are at is
the biggest at the moment, and you feel tremendous pressure.
(09:28):
So it's just just going through you know, Instagram or anything.
It can be a form of easing pressure and for
someone it can be helpful. So so that person if
it's just looking and you know, it's not influencing me
or I am not envious or I'm not distracted, and
if it works to realize energy, it's okay or attention.
(09:49):
But if it gives h you know me, doubts about
myself or or if it really no message up with
my focus, then I should not do it. So it's
really like it's really about each person and how the
reaction is and and we should be sensitive enough to
know whether it moves me forward to my goal, which
(10:12):
is winning a tournament or a match, or if it
puts me away from that goal. So could we compared
to like, okay, maybe a glass of wine after match.
It's not a bad thing because it relaxes you, but
if you drink the whole bottle, you might have a
problem the next day. If you want to play. But
you know, obviously in history there are players that drink
the whole bottle and want image the next day, you know. So,
(10:35):
I mean it's not so clear. This this is uh
so important about the mental health and about working with
your potential of your mind. That there is no solution
that fits everybody. There is normal like you do these
ten steps and each of thee get the same result.
It doesn't work like it. And that's why we need,
(10:56):
uh like each of us to work on our own
into each and sensitivity, listen to feedback from our coaches, friends, parents, partners,
and so on and and and and really have the
sensitivity what really nurtures us and moves us forward and
what doesn't Because the same thing like a glass of
(11:16):
wine at the one moment can help me, but the
same glass of wine in another moment can can really
make a trouble. So so it's about feeling the right
moment for the glass of wine or for for Instagram,
or for going to meet the friends, going to a
restaurants or watching a movie in room, or training double
(11:37):
amounts of normally do for anything. You know, even for
the physical training. You probably know it from training physically
you really need to know the right amount. You cannot
perhaps train too much physically before an important that it
has to be the right amount or the right strategy
or the right moves that you train. So basically, the
(11:59):
mind is actually like the body that the more I
feel the body, the more I know, okay, how much
of this exercise I should do. And the more I
do it, I kind of get connected to my body,
so I know, okay, this is what I need. I
don't need anything more or less. So the more we
train the body, the more we kind of understand ourselves. Right,
(12:21):
this is actually working for me, or this is going
against me, exactly. It's about the same kind of awareness,
because the mind and body are just different sides of
the coin in a way, because we inherit some physiology,
We inherite some you know, muscle, some some talent for
for different sports and so on, and and we we
(12:43):
inherit some mind, to to put it simply, but we
can train and change both. You know, you have tennis
players who were talented, but you have some they are
so called less talented. I mean it's not the perhaps
the right language, but but those if they work hard,
they could achieve the same success then those so called
talented ones and so so the same potential is with
(13:06):
the mind. We have we have something, but it's not definitely.
We can work with it. And if if we know ourselves,
if we are aware about how we react to certain things,
how we interact with certain things, what goes in our
head in terms of thinking of judgment, valuation, assumptions and
(13:26):
so on, we can work with that and move on.
But it's about the same kind of awareness or sensitivity
as with the body. So it's pretty much the heritage
we get from our parents, grandparents. It's pretty much like say,
we have a starting shape of our body, and at
(13:48):
at the beginning of the career we can be really slow.
We are not as explosive, but there are exercises, there
are ways to work on that and and get better.
The same goes for the mind. Whatever we heard age,
there's always ways how to change that and exactly exactly,
and we do something when we are kids, then we
do something else in our teenage years. Also in terms
(14:09):
of like tennis training or you know, some players who
are not tennis players in there were six you know,
they switch sports and so on, and and so it's
it's what we the genetics would be inherit. But then
also in terms of mine, it's the social set up.
You know, the parents, if we have siblings, you know,
the teachers at school. And then in terms of tennis,
(14:29):
it's it's your coach or or you know, if you
are in a part of a group that trains, then
is that social environment. So so we get we get genetics,
and then we we have some you know, attitudes, or
we have some uh, you know, opinions or you know,
we value certain things as certain emotions, qualities or behavior
(14:50):
with value we don't want others. And and the same
is with the body. You know, we want to do uh,
just some type of you know training in order to
achieve our goal. And also, like you said, everyone is
so different that for some you know, I love to
do intervals on a treadmill, but someone else likes to
get the car deal done on a bike and whatever,
(15:11):
and they use less effort to do that, so it's
better for them to go that way. Um, and I
guess the same goals for the mental work that maybe
for someone they can't possibly find ways how to do
asen as long as as often as they should be,
but maybe they do something else is that how it
works in the mind as well. It's very similar. What's important,
(15:37):
especially in a in a professional sport, that you need
to balance between balance and one sidedness because there are moments,
like in general in life for mental health you need balance,
but it's not balanced in terms of like fifty fifty,
but it's balanced that you need to express all kinds
(15:58):
of emotions or behave years or or qualities. But when
you want to achieve high performance, it's a business in sports,
in anything, for a short or even longer sometimes period
of time, you need to focus on just one side
of the equation, on on being mentally strong, being focused,
(16:20):
being aware, being at the moment, and so on. But
in general sometimes you also need to be unfocused and
just you know, do whatever and systematically. But in in
when you prepare, for example, for a Grand Slam or
during those for for two or three weeks, you need
(16:41):
to be totally focused. You need to be mentally strong,
you cannot give up, and so on. So so uh,
within the whole like tennis year, I would say, for example,
in terms of a mental mind, you have a strong
like a huge chance where you really need to be
one side in terms of you know, even the physical,
(17:02):
but even the mental. But the magic is then to
balance for that one side and sidedness at other times.
I don't know if if if it makes sense, but
I mean you cannot you know, just uh uh you
know be said it. You cannot be like said or depressed.
You can. You have to have that at the different moments.
(17:25):
And and this is the magic. I mean it's easy
easy to to say, it's more difficult to to execute
it or do but but you need to remember it's
not possible to be all lier like mentally strong, focus, happy,
energized and so on. There needs to be time for
the other polarity because that's how the mind or the
(17:47):
human psychey works. But in tennis you have you don't
have the luxury like in business or in other professions
that you can no switch during the shorter intervals. But
in tennis you usually it's really intense to to that
moment of the tournament and the brakes are not not
(18:08):
not as extensive and so all, so how do you
fulfill the other but the other part of the emotion
in a in a healthy way. That's that's why again
the team is important and uh and and you First
of all, you need to be aware that it needs
(18:28):
to be done, that that you need to have time
for for the Let's call it negative because I mean
it's not negative because each part of our personality has
its positive aspects. It's not always like just to be
like hard working and and and uh and focus and
(18:49):
smart and and so on. It's just positive. You know,
hardworking is fine, but when you for example, in in
a in the tennis, if you work too hard, you
can have an injury and then you you are not
able to perform in the tournament. So hard working there
needs to be a certain amount. And and again lazy
(19:10):
it's not good if you don't train for two months
before important tournament. But if you're lazy, it can help
you to recover. So there are moments where where it's
required or whether it's helpful for you to be lazy. So,
first of all, I think what's important, and it's not
only for athletes but in life to stop seeing it
(19:31):
as two groups of uh you know, and one has
uh you know stick around it. This is a group
of positive qualities, emotions and behaviors, and here's one big
group of negative ones, which is the laziness slowness and
so on. We should stop seeing it this way. And
we should remember also too much of a good thing,
(19:51):
you know how the saying goes too much of a
good thing can be a problem. And on the other hand,
those qualities, emotions, behaviors that we usually called negative, they
have some gifts, they have some positive aspects and positive
side and and we need the right balance. And then
it starts with acknowledging this only when you when you
(20:13):
know that even depression can have a positive aspect or sadness,
because it can be self reflection. I can I can
come up with some you know, reflection about me which
can move me forward. I can you know, see where
the problem was, how should I move forward? And so on.
So even that part when you are alone, uh and
(20:36):
and and said and and uh and somehow uh insecure,
can give you some insights that can be valuable on
your journey. So so so the first thing is not
to see it as a one group of you know,
good things and another group of Baptist And then I
can start to develop the sensitivity what should be UH
(21:00):
beneficial or what what is what is bene sufficial for me? Here?
And now No, it's it's it's the same awareness we
discussed before that I need to know that now I
have to be slow or I should just stop and
not do anything because it will nurture me. And then uh,
next time, I really need to work hard and train
(21:22):
because that will help me reach my goal. So to
make um just one example, I say, I think most
of the tennis players are hard workers. So how in
a healthy way do they fulfill the other part of
big lazy? And what's important to to say here as well,
(21:44):
is that if we don't do it proactively, it might
happen that, uh, it will catch us unexpectedly. Now, if
if I don't, for example, uh, you know I have
the laziness in my life in a positive way, then
I can get injured and I will be you know,
bed ridden, and I won't be competing at my favorite
(22:07):
through neam and for example. So again it's it's a
trial and error, and it's learning for each person where
you can find the little slot for the laziness, just
like watch a movie or you know, for for each
of us, the laziness is about something else, you know,
for for somebody's not not cooking or not you know,
(22:29):
making the bed or uh. For example, in tennis, it's
probably what would you say, it's it's not training. What
what's laziness in the life of tennis player playing golf? Yes, yes,
for example, because I think that the laziness, the positive
laziness in terms of life of a positive professional tennis player,
(22:51):
should be not shouldn't have to be around tennis, I say.
And maybe it's I just wanted to add, as you
know very well, that the best example in my own
experience of that not fulfilling, because I always was worried
when I take rest that I'm kind of, you know,
(23:13):
losing losing time in my tennis career, and it was
almost impossible for me to to find a way how
to have holidays. And then what happened was when I
was on Sena Chord at Winblad, at four all in
the third set at US the most important point of
of the tournament for me, I would just suddenly not
(23:34):
run after the boat because that laziness took over. Like
you said, if we are not aware of it, then
it takes unfortunately over in the worst worst times for us.
And it's exactly what you said earlier that the body
knows if we listened to the body. The body knows
and the same goals is the mind. That they talked
(23:56):
to each other in a way. So so when when
we are not balanced and we we are one sided
in terms of just working hard, the body helps, uh,
the mind to realize the laziness. But but in an
unfortunate way. Now this is what we don't want. But
you know, the mind works like physics. You know, it's
(24:21):
it's it's about balance. And once it gets too much,
you know, the mind starts to balance it. The mind
is the body starts to balance it. And and and
it's better when it's not compensated unexpectedly like through an
injury in terms of a tennis player, but it's better
if we are ahead of it in terms of uh,
(24:41):
you know, also emotion wise, in terms of for example,
anger or aggressiveness. I think this is something that's really
important for a tennis player. And and they actually, uh,
you guys needed uh in the career and when when
somebody was brought up that was like a nice and
light and to be arrogant or aggressive was not a
(25:03):
value in the community. It's it's something that needs to
be you know, uh, the in the in the life
of a tennis player eventually because it will be missing there.
So there's there's so many polarities in the in the
tennis that need to be find tune. Uh so they
don't find tune themselves, no, because then then when you
(25:25):
don't embrace the anger and its positive side, then you
are really angery in the court that you get punished
for it, either by losing or you do something that's
no no, okay is the referee and so on. So
so you really need the anger and aggressiveness to be
in the game, not in other parts of your behavior.
(25:47):
So can we really say I find it really fascinating
and we never talked about it this way that can
you actually call compare it in the same way the
mind to the bad because as an athlete, I think
this is where we can really relate to it. As
professional athletes. I know my body is so well that
(26:07):
as soon as I pull something or I uh you know,
do something to my muscle, I can almost judge it
as a physio because you know it's been my it's
been my computer for the last thirty years. Also, as
soon as I push it too much into training, I
know right then it overdid it or because there's been
so much work done. Is that the acquill aqui. It's
(26:31):
just the same thing for the mind that the more
you work on it, the more you work with the polarities,
you are much more aware, like, Okay, then now you
know I needed to be aggressive, I wasn't. I need
to work on that. Um, it makes you much more
aware the more you do the mental work, right, Definitely,
it's it's I think it's a wonderful metaphor. And the
(26:53):
actually I never thought about it because, uh, you know,
I have awareness in the of my body, but I
think you are on the top when you are a
professional athlete, you are on a completely different level. And
and I would say exactly because the mind, you have
the conscious part and you have the unconscious part. So
(27:15):
you have something that you are aware of and you
know about yourself, but there are things that that you
don't know about yourself because in the unconscious part, you
have thought, you have ideas, you have emotions, you have
all the things you don't want to be or you
don't want to leave or act at the moment. But
they are not uh, somewhere else away from you. They
(27:38):
are still part of your mind. They are just somewhere
else where you currently don't don't uh played out or
you don't leave it, and and you should know also
that part of yourself. So it doesn't you know, surprise
you and and and the more you you you are
aware of yourself, the more you you try find your
(28:00):
balance and and and feel the moment. UH. In psychology,
we say you're expanding your consciousness. You mean that means
you are aware of more things about yourself, You know
more eactly reactions better No, So so it's it's it's important.
I think the same way as you learn to know
your body, you need to learn to know your mind.
(28:21):
You know what you react, what makes you angry? What what? What?
What do you admire? And so on? Through these uh,
you know things you can learn about yourself. You know,
how have you react when your coach does this? Have
you react when your parents do this, when your partner,
your children, and so on and and you can get
awareness and then you can see, Okay, if I do
(28:43):
this or if I think or feel this, it has
a reaction for for my environment. So I think it's
it's it's should to me. It seems it's very similar
to what you're talking about. The body. You know how
I always compare everything to tennis right up to me.
It's something that's coming to my mind now. It's like
you know, you go to a gym and first you
(29:04):
learn how to squad, and you're like, oh my gosh,
I actually know how to square. But the more you
do it, you start to realize, now, okay, I'm using
this muscle um and actually, if I engage my core,
I'm going to be so much more effective. That's going
to translate to hitting better for hands and backends. So
the more sensitive, if you become of of your body,
(29:24):
the more you start to realize how much potential there is,
and that there are muscles that you haven't even used before,
but they are still there. Like you said, even the
unconscious mind, it's still part of us. It's not like
it's on another cloud. But the more we work on
on it, the more you're like, oh, I didn't even
know I had these muscles, and oh my gosh, I
can be so much more powerful just because being aware
(29:48):
of what we've got. Exactly, because once you start paying attention,
you can see the results. Once you start paying attention
and if you start bringing the poalities that you normally
don't you bring them, invite them and and do realize
them in your life. You can see the shift and
(30:09):
and that's the same when you train. You know, you
you you live some weight and then after months you
can live more and you can see it. You can
see the result. Uh and and you feel it and
and that's wonderful and and just it's the same with
the awareness of of the present moment and with living
the the right poality at the moment. Once you learn
(30:32):
how to do it, of course you know it's shifts
and uh, you do it right five times and the
six it doesn't work, but but you know, just the
effort and and you know the awareness will will bring
you a different quality of life. Or in terms of
a tennis player, you will because you know in the
(30:52):
tennis you know that sometimes you need to do uh this,
some other time you need to do something else. You
can you know, serve the same way the whole match.
You know, or you need to run and sometimes you
need to you know, do something else, or you need
to do bolly and then you need another shot and
(31:14):
and you know it's about the right moment. Or you
know what I love about tennis, it's like of course
you you you are allowed to lose some points, but
it has to be at the right moment. You know.
You you can you know, uh lose a ball, but
it's not when you have a match ball, you know,
or some several of them. So so there are points
(31:37):
you are allowed to you lose, and others that are not.
And this is like being in the right moment. You know.
A lot of times a player plays better tennis but
loses the match than the other one because the other
one in the right moment, use the right shot or
the right mindset, and and and it's the same with
the mind. You you cannot always be happy, you cannot
(32:00):
always be focused. But if you are unfocused, it has
to be in moments when it doesn't damage your journey
to the goal. No, so so I have to be lazy,
I have to be uh the stupid things now, drink
the bottle of behind or party or anything. But it
has to be in the right moment in terms of
(32:21):
my you know, for example tennis here, that's that's why
it's important to have the brains. And a lot of
players do it wonderfully. You know. They switch family time
and and and and training uh and and uh and
I think that's that that's the key. And and and
then you know, find the emotions or the qualities or
(32:41):
behavior that matters the most. And and for example, I
don't know, I want to be seen as an honest
person or I want to be seen as somebody who
has the right values or who is not ignorant. Uh So,
so I need to look at those polarities. I am humble,
and you know the positive of humble, I am arrogant
(33:02):
or I am I don't know what. And I need
to explore what's good about the other part which I
consider negative, and try to put it somewhere in my life.
And I do it step by step, and then I
see the change the same way as I do it
in the gym. Now when when I try to bring balance,
and the balance doesn't have to be you know, I
(33:24):
can be all dad. I have to be focused, and
it's just two times a year. I have to be
consciously unfocused because I want to proactively do it. I
don't want the mind and the body do it for
me in an unfortunate Hi. There, I hope you have
(33:45):
enjoyed today's episode of the Real DNA podcast. Don't forget
to subscribe it on Spotify, Apple podcast, or wherever you
get your podcast from
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