April 28, 2022 • 33 mins
Our oceans cover more than 70 percent of the Earth's surface and are home to the vast majority of its living species. We rely on these vital bodies of water for our air, our climate, and even some medicines. Despite all that the oceans do for us, human industries are disrupting its essential ecosystems. What can we do to help restore and protect them? In this episode, Alicia sits down with Ali Tabrizi, director of the popular Netflix documentary Seaspiracy. They discuss the harmful consequences of the modern fishing industry and how to avoid myths around sustainability. Ali shares the positive impact he hopes his film can achieve and explains why healing our oceans is a critical step in healing ourselves.
To dig deeper into this episode’s topic and resources, visit thekindlife.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
What is it really gonna take to heal ourselves, our communities,
and our planet. I'm Alicia Silverstone, and this is the
real heal. There's something magnificent about the vastness of the oceans,
(00:24):
the unimaginable biodiversity, the many ecosystems it sustains, the way
it gives us fresh air to breathe by controlling CEO
two levels. But what happens when this extraordinary system gets disrupted?
In this episode, I sit down with Ali Too Breezy,
director of the popular Netflix documentary c Spiracy. We talk
(00:47):
about Ali's transformative experience while filming and how healing our
oceans is a critical step in healing ourselves. So, without
further ado, let's get into the real hell. Hi there, Ali,
(01:08):
I am so excited to talk to you today about
oceans and all kinds of things on the real he'll welcome.
Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure
to be here. I'm so grateful for the work that
you're doing. I your film was so powerful, but I
just wanted to thank you from the bottom of my
heart because I think you're incredible. Wow. I wasn't expecting that.
(01:31):
Thank you so much, it's it's always incredible to me
every time someone says something like that, because, as you know,
you make a film and you kind of sent off
into the universe and then there it lives. And then
because it was launched during COVID, we didn't have like
an in person premiere, and so all the interaction has
literally been through these kinds of moments of people sort
of telling me how they how they viewed it, and
(01:52):
so it's it's amazing to hear that the film has
sort of achieved its goal in terms of sort of
awakening some awareness and an action for the ocean. Yes,
I have been on this journey for twenty five years
or something, and I didn't know so much of what
you taught me. I want to start though, by talking
(02:14):
about how you're just a guy who really was when
you were a child you just love the ocean. Can
you tell us about sort of you as a little
a little person who had an interest in this so
we can understand where this love came from. Well, I
think it starts from growing up by the coast here
in the southeast of England, and it's just the place
(02:36):
that you go during the summer breaks. It's the place
that you go after school. It was always just a
place that I hung out, you know, I would go
skateboarding by the by the ocean on the boulevard, and
so it was just always there. And obviously David Attenborough
is a little bit of a legend here in the UK,
and you grew up watching his films, and I think
previous generation would be someone like Jacques Cousteau, And I
(02:59):
think of the Mystery and Wonder was born out of
the idea that just to be on the horizon, there's
this whole incredible world. It's just beneath the surface and
you can go out there and you can explore it.
And these incredible shots of dolphins leaping out the water
and slow motion and these coral reefs and the incredible
handsomer music playing in the background. It's just something that
(03:19):
just the the adventure was calling me. And so, you know,
I really wanted to one day explore the world. I
wanted to travel, and as I was entering my late
teen years, it was really when I started to see
that there was a change in the way that the
ocean was being reported, and not only that, the way
I was viewing the ocean. It seemed like there was
(03:40):
less wildlife, even here in the UK, where isn't really
much at all. And one day actually just after school,
coming back home, there was this huge whale, like this
giant whale that washed up on the beach just down
the road basically from where I lived. And that was
the first time I had actually seen one of these
huge giants like that close up. And it felt like
I'd been the opportunity to see that wonder that I
(04:03):
always wanted was kind of stolen away from me because
it was it was just laying there dead, and of
course in its stomach was marine debris, plastics and things
like that, and so that started to enter my consciousness
about how the oceans really were. And I guess before
I knew I over the years, slowly, slowly, I was
starting to understand more and more, and to the point
when I was like, yeah, twenty one when I began
(04:25):
making this film, really understand there's a broader picture. So
you know, then going to Japan and then going here
and there, and then I guess that's where the sort
of Alison wonder Land down the rabbit Hole kind of started.
So you really somewhere along that way before you went
to start making this film, it became clear that you
were so passionate about what you were learning that you
(04:46):
had to tell the story. Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, I understand
that you've basically set up a disrupt foundation with the
mission to improve the lives of people, animals, and the
health of coc systems. Through there on your ongoing work
to ensure a prosperous and thriving planet for current and
future generations. I guess why I'm saying that is so
(05:10):
that we can help people understand your overall mission. That
if because I think a lot of people hear the
words the spiracy and they go, I don't want to
see that because it's going to make me stop eating fish.
And then I have to say, well, if you're scared
of watching it, you really should watch it, right because
maybe you won't give up eating fish, but maybe you'll
learn a bunch of stuff and and have a better
(05:30):
understanding of what what you are choosing. But your mission
is bigger than just that, and so I would like
to seduce people in by having them understand what you're
what you're really trying to do here, and how it
affects all of us, not just fish. The Netflix documentary reached.
I mean, I don't know how many millions of people
(05:51):
it reached, but really there's so much that we couldn't
fit into that film that we really wanted a space
where we could explore those stories more and support those
grass routes activists and to dive into further research and
investigation and keep educating the public. And so that's why
we set that up. And so this is something that
affects all of us no matter where you are on Earth.
(06:12):
The oceans we are on a blue planet, is providing
most of our oxygen, like our oxygen, and this isn't
just about marine wildlife. This is also about people. Every year,
about twenty four thousand fisheries workers die within the fishing industry.
Slavery and these fishing vessels on these fishing boats have
been reported about forty seven countries. And in the film
(06:33):
we would explored the slavery that was happening in Thailand,
but there's been slavery that's been reported off the coast
of European country. So this is really all over the
world where where witnessing this happen. And one of the
reasons for that is that with an ocean which is
being plundered of wildlife. It's now taking longer and longer
to catch those fish, and so more fuel is being burned,
(06:55):
The ships need more maintenance, and so the only way
these captains can really cut down on cost is on
the human labor. And so that's why we've seen this
rise in human slavery within the fishing industry as a
means of cutting back on the costs. And and so
that's that's really the mission of c Spiracy is. You know,
we absolutely need to protect wildlife, we absolutely need to
(07:15):
protect those ecosystems, but we also need to approach this
from a human rights angle as well. And so that's
really the mission of what c Spiracy is about, and
why we've continued so hard on social media to continue
investigating and educating the public. Yeah, that was I had
no idea when I watched about the Slaves. That was
fascinating and I can't even imagine. And I wanted to
(07:37):
say that when I saw the film. The one little
good news about the movie, I guess if you could
say is that you know a lot of these films
about animals or about our earth crush, you I would
be hysterically bawling at the end of a film. The
good news about c spiracy. I will say that while
you're speaking about these very sad things, it's not a
(08:00):
sad movie. I didn't cry watching your movie. I just
learned a lot. I don't know that it's good or bad,
other than I want to say to people, don't be afraid.
You won't be crushed, You'll just learn. Yeah, I mean,
that's the thing. We didn't want to make a film
that was sort of being people over the head with
something that all throughout the movie. You know, we never
(08:23):
you know, as a narrator, I never sort of said
what people should do. It was very much coming from
the people that I was meeting and speaking to, and
and so yeah, it was it was striking that balance,
you know. And there was also so many things that
we didn't include in the movie because it would have
just been too dense, and we just wanted to capture
the whole picture and make sure it was easy to
(08:43):
follow and it was entertaining and it was also educational. Yeah,
you made this quote that I think is so important.
Tuna isn't a sandwich filling. It's a wild animal. Many
of these species that were killing and eating are threatened
or endangered. It's like going into the African savannah hunting
down a rhino, chopping it up and putting it in
(09:06):
a sandwich. We have to ask ourselves the question, is
this the species we want to be? And you know,
you have to kind of see the film to understand
the whole context of that. But basically, I always knew
that the fish were big fish, and that it was
that they didn't want their lives to be taken, and
that it was not a nice thing to watch them
suffer when they are taken out of the water. But
(09:28):
what I didn't know was that if you choose a
fish to eat, that you're really choosing the slaughter of
a dolphin, a whale, a shark, and a turtle. That
all of these creatures that we're trying to protect and
that we love and admire and go look at and love,
and we know that many of them are going extinct,
that those are the animals that were killing when you
(09:50):
choose tuna sandwich or any fish sandwich. And I think
that's really really powerful, and I didn't understand that, So
I'm I'm so happy to have learned that from you. Yeah,
there's a there's a huge amount of collateral damage. There's
a huge number of invisible victims. Whenever you you're you're
partaking in part of the seafood industry, you're you're literally
(10:11):
dunking these killing devices, these nets into the abyss. You
can't see what's down there, and you're catching everything, and
then you pull it up on the boat and okay,
you select what you want and what you can sell,
and you throw the rest overboard. But what gets thrown
overboard is often those whales, those sharks, those dolphins. Even
though there are these organizations and systems in place for
(10:32):
dolphins safe, when we went to speak to those organizations,
they could not guarantee anything and that they basically admitted
that their labels are useless, which was shocking to me.
And so I think it just feeds back into this
corruption and this deceit that is so prominent when you're
looking at these kinds of labels which quite frankly don't
(10:55):
mean anything, and it's just greenwashing. It's just a marketing term.
And the victims at the to the day, ah, those wildlife,
those those dolphins, those whales, and we've seen those populations
crashing all around the world over the last like fifty
years on the watch of those sustainability labels. Mm hmm.
The sustainability thing is really really hard because I think
(11:17):
that I was at the farmer's market the other day
and I saw a really longline for the sustainable fish,
and I just thought, like, maybe at the farmer's market,
maybe that person goes out in a tiny boat and
collects it. I don't know. I've never talked to the
guy because I don't go there to get fish, so
but I would. But I thought, this is probably not
(11:38):
actually sustainable. And you know, you have these apps that
tell you this fish is more sustainable than that fish.
I think that the organizations have those, and ultimately it's
not sustainable at all. Just in the same way that
we have this misconception about the sort of small local farm,
the same is true with the small local fishing industry.
(12:00):
And so in the film we referenced one for example,
that was in Iceland and as a small fishing fleet,
I think in a matter of was it a month,
they were catching something like nine hundred seals again, like
thousand porpoises, and like five thousand seabirds in just a
month of buy catch. And this again is a very
small scale local Icelandic fishery that is having huge amounts
(12:23):
of bycatch, and so that's happening around the world. You know,
sustainability is only measured in terms of the sort of
human consumption element of it. So let's say we have
a certain number of map cral or a certain number
of small fish here, and we say, okay, well, let's
take this amount this year and next year. The idea
would be that they replenished themselves. But that's not taking
(12:43):
into account that when you remove that portion, you've also
removed the food for the dolphins and the whales and
the turtles who are now having less food that they
can eat. And so sustainability is only really measuring human consumption,
not the overall big picture. And so yes, for me,
sustainable fishing it's a bit of a myth. It's a
huge myth for me. Well, let's talk a little bit
(13:19):
about subsidies, because I think that people have no idea.
The fishing industry gets thirty five billion dollars in subsidies
a year. This is so disgusting and why how do
they even justify needing that or asking for that? How
does that go down? Yeah, so a subsidy for people
(13:40):
who don't know much about economics, is basically where the
government takes tax pay money and gives it to an
industry in order to manipulate the price of a products
or service. What we're seeing with the fishing industry is
that it's becoming so incredibly expensive to catch fish because
you've got these often multi million dollar fishing vessels who
(14:02):
require huge amounts of resources to run them. The fuel,
the crew, the maintenance, the fishing licenses, and and needing
to travel internationally. It's dangerous work. And not only that
the fish are running out. We've already lost the large
fish in our ocean in the last fifty something years,
and we're with you know, many shark species are down
(14:24):
to like ninety nine. They've all gone. The ocean is
just completely being drained of fish, and so they need
to stay at sea far longer to catch anything. And
so the government, by giving that money to the fishing industry,
can sort of buff with a price of fish down
to a sort of affordable rate. What's actually happening now
is that many fishing vessels are actually going to catch
(14:46):
the subsidies and not to catch the fish. They are
only going out to sea to become eligible to get
the subsidy, which is really what's keeping them afloat. And
so if we were to remove fishing subsidies from the
fishing industry, you would probably see more than half of
the fishing fleet go out of business overnight. They just
wouldn't be able to afford it. And so our governments
(15:06):
are taking our taxpayer money giving it to an industry
that is set on the slaughter of marine wildlife and
the destruction of probably i would argue, the most important
ecosystem on Earth, and not even being able to show
anything for it. Within the EU, many countries are giving
tens of millions of euros into the sort of EU
(15:28):
phishing subsidies without getting anything back. So some countries are
giving millions and getting zero value in terms of fish
product back. It's a complete money pit. And it's the
same as what's happening with animal agriculture on land, and
I would like to see them go as well. I
think that hearing about subsidies and you're explaining it so beautifully,
(15:50):
it just makes me think that we don't there isn't
enough awareness about this that people really just don't understand
that it's not sustainable. System, the government giving so much
money to these industries which are essentially or corporate. They're
not the little guy, and they do it in the disguise.
The argument would be, but we have to feed the people,
(16:12):
so we have to keep these companies afloat. If they
would just allow them to disappear and let the little
guys do the work, it would be so much better,
allow it to have its true cost. And so how
do we get that message out there? How do we
spread this more that sub what actually subsidies do, and
how to stop it? Can we stop it? Mm hmm.
(16:33):
So I mean we have three messages which are cool
to actions at the end of the film and that
we continue to promote, and that is that we all
need to shift towards a plant based diet as much
as possible. And so really that is encapsulated by the
words stop we need to stop partaking in this in
this industry. The other one is to protect We need
to protect large as areas of the ocean, but we
(16:55):
we need to defund the fishing subsidies. And what people
don't realize is that when they go out and they
buy that filet of fish or the seafood or the
prawns or whatever they might be doing. They're actually paying
for it twice or three times so once when they
go and pit the counter, but they've already paid for
that in their taxes. Governments are taking taxpayer money and
(17:16):
they are handing it in the form of thirty five
billion dollars every year to the fishing industry to artificially
manipulate the price of fish to be cheaper, because it's
actually an incredibly expensive product to try and get to
a supermarket shelf. About half of all fishing, especially on
the high seas, is completely unprofitable if it weren't for subsidies.
(17:38):
The rest of the percentage is just about breaking even.
And so if you were to remove those subsidies, you
would see most of the fishing fleet return to port
and be out of business because just simply not an
effective efficient way of producing food. The most efficient is
obviously in in plant based agriculture, and so I think
if we were to remove them, you would very quickly
(17:58):
see that signal ripple out through the marketplace and people
would see actually how luxurious and unattainable these products really are,
which are currently being disguised as very very cheap food.
That's being sold in McDonald's and school canteens, and really,
I think that would incentivize people to shift more towards
buying plants instead. I think, what are the things that
(18:19):
just to help listeners understand why they should care, because
maybe they go, I don't care about whales, I don't
care about dolphins, I don't care about human rights. I
don't care about people being murdered. I don't care about
people being slaves on boats. I don't care about any
of that. How could you not? But let's say they don't.
So then another thing that we have to have them
understand is that without the ocean, which we are destroying,
(18:43):
we will have no food, that there's no oxygen. Can
you explain that a little bit about how urgently we
need this to shift, not only because climate change is
coming upon us so quickly, but how that is affecting
the ocean and your day to day What will it
mean if we have no fish in this ocean? It?
What will it mean? I think, coming from a selfish
(19:05):
position on this is It's not a position that I'm
used to taking, but I think there is inherently selfish
benefits to not having a planet with a dead ocean.
The ocean provides of the world's oxygen, so that's roughly
eight out of every tem breast that you're breathing was
an exhalation from the ocean. And it's not the water,
(19:27):
it's these microscopic phytoplankton in the ocean. Without them, we
don't have a planet to live on. Kiss goodbye all
your dreams and all your ambitions and everyday life. And
one of the major threats to phytoplankton is the destruction
of the wild life in the ocean. The whales, the fish,
the turtles, which are actually acting like the gardeners of
(19:51):
the ocean, who are frequently fertilizing and and mixing up nutrients.
And I often wonder the sort of intelligent design argument
of why, because they're so genius the way this whole
mechanism works, and I love telling the story. Basically, whales,
large whales, in order to feed, they need to dive
to the dark depths where it's very nutrient dence, but
there's no sunlight that so no plants can grow. But
(20:15):
in order to breathe, they need to return to the
surface where there isn't a lot of nutrients, but there
is sunlight for those plants to grow. And so basically,
when a whale dives down deep, it collects all these
nutrients in the food eats, and when it goes to
the top, it breathes and it releases those nutrients in
the form of manure. And so by doing that every
single day, that is keeping us alive. So we need
(20:35):
those whales, and we also need the fish who are
doing the same thing. So without fish, without whales, we
wouldn't have oxygen in our lungs. And so that's, I mean,
a pretty obvious reason why we need to protect the ocean,
not to mention all the other sort of incredible things
that come from the ocean, the sort of tourism and
all the rest of it. So that's that, That would
(20:55):
be my main argument. Breathe. That was what I was
looking for, because I think that it's easy to not
understand any of that, to not understand that it's not
a when you choose like, oh, I want to have
that fish taco. Yeah, they're really delicious, but what is
it going to cost me? What is it going to
cost in ten years? I don't understand how it isn't
(21:17):
at the top priority of every living being. Because it's
a real threat, and I just the industries that thrive
and make money off of it continue to tell us
that it's I don't worry about it, there's no problem.
I don't worry about a no scroll problem. But it
is a really real problem, and it's they're going to
be faced with it soon and then what like how
(21:39):
will they deal with this? So I'm thinking about all
(22:00):
of what you're saying is so powerful, and so I'm
just so happy that you're expressing all of this, and
their film does it so beautifully, and again you must, must,
must watch it. But I'm just thinking to the person
who's going, but wait a second. But it's yummy, and
I need it for my health, for your health. The
omega's we get from walnuts, we get from seaweed, the
(22:22):
food that the animals that these fish are eating cut
out the middleman, you know. And I have tons of
great seaweed recipes in my book, The Kind Diet and
the Kind Mama, and seaweed is so good for your skin,
it's so nourishing and healing. It's a really important thing
to add into your life. But we don't need fish
to do it. Now. On the yummy section. I just
(22:42):
wanted to ask you, aside from all the things that
are yummy out there that you can eat their plant base,
because anybody given one plate of food, if there's two
plates of food, one is right here and it causes destruction,
and it causes all the suffering, but it's yummy, and
there's another plate right here that's just as yummy, but
it doesn't create any destruction. I think any person would
(23:02):
pick the one that doesn't cause destruction. But I don't
think people are informed about that. So what I wanted
to ask you is what is the yummiest fish substitutes
that you have found? Don't give shout outs to like
your friend companies. I want to know what is the
yummiest because there's a lot of faux fish, But what
is like the ones that you say a meat eater
(23:22):
would be impressed by. Man, That's a great question, Okay,
selfish question for me. So in the UK there is
a growing number of really excellent fish and chips, which
is a very British kind of dish, battle fish with chips.
A friend of mine who some listeners may be aware of,
he's called arthling ed Um. He's a vegan activist, from
(23:45):
the UK and I believe he has a restaurant in
London called Unity Diner and in Unity Dinner as well
as another one which is called the No Catch Co
which is now on the seafront in Brighton. They're selling
incredible vegan fish and chips. So that's a incredible one.
But I think I don't know what what it's based.
It might be tofu, but they've done something really special
(24:05):
with it. It's really incredible. And also there are a
lot of incredible vegan battered prawns and tuna and there's
so many alternatives. And I think what's it exciting about
this space in particular is because it's they're the newest ones.
You know, we've had plant based milks for quite a while,
you know, the awful soy milks from years ago, but
(24:27):
now the really good ones, and there's been like the
beyond meats and the impossible meats come in and beyond
the sort of chicken substitute which I basically the same,
they taste the same with seafood. It's only just starting
to come in um. And what was exciting was that
when the film was released, just a matter of weeks later,
a vegan Tuna Company had secured something like twenty six
(24:51):
million in investment off the back of I think the
hype of the film, and so that's really exciting to
see that this is a new emergence emerging space in
the sort of plant based food sector which is growing
really rapidly. But yeah, you can't be a good old
even like a whole foods based vegan sushi. I mean,
I love, I love that kind of stuff. You know,
you can create banana blossom fish is incredible. I don't
(25:13):
know if you've tried that banana blossom Have you ever
tried it? No, you can basically deep fry it and
it has the texture of the flaky texture of fish
and it's incredible. So there's a growing So basically the
alternatives are out there and they're getting really really good,
and I think another couple of years and we'll see
them exponentially improve. And I think it's gonna be really
(25:36):
easy for people to transition because like you gave that
example of like hey, you have one dish here which
causes suffering and the other one which causes negligible suffering
or no suffering. Of course, the no brain would be
to go to the no suffering, But what if it
tasted like cardboard? And now, of course the masses aren't
going to do that. Maybe you will, maybe I will,
but most people weren't. So I think it's really important
(25:57):
that those companies are developing those products do that best
to be as lifelike as possible to the real thing,
because until that happens, it's not going to be a
very easy transition for a lot of people. Yeah, and
so again, I want everyone to come as far on
this journey as they can and to not be dissuaded
because they can't do it all the way. I think
that's the key. I'm willing to do this all the way.
(26:19):
You're willing to do this all the way. But there
have been times where I've had oopsie doopsies, and so
just to say, just to say that, I'd rather someone
declare I'm going to be vegan, and I'm going to
do the best I can to do this, and every
day I'm going to wake up and be vegan, and
then oops, I messed up. Great, get right back on
back on track. That kind of a vegan of an
oopsy doopsy vegan is way better than nothing at all,
(26:42):
Because if we decide to just not do it, then
we're not going to make any progress. You know, if
we had the majority of people eating mostly plants, it
would do overall better than just a few people who
are hardcore vegans. So the more people that can transition
in the direction of being plant based, the better it
will be. For some people, it will be an overnight transition.
(27:04):
For others it might take a couple of weeks. But
a lot is just forming those new habits and understanding, okay,
what are the new foods and finding those alternatives. And
so what's been really cool is at the beginning by
going when going vegan, it did feel like I was
giving up a lot of things, and those sort of
traditional things I used to eat growing up, And now
I've been able to rediscover them and enjoy them again.
(27:24):
And it's simply just swapping out the real chicken or
the real fish for the plant based alternative. I've got
to say that they're getting really, really good. So yeah,
and what about the fact that people say that fish
don't feel m hmmm. I think that's the story we
tell ourselves to justify the way that we treat them.
(27:45):
I think it isn't something that we only do to fish.
It's something that happens in times of war and crisis,
the dehumanization that's stripping away of any sort of autonomy
from the victims that might be at the other end
of the gun, but the other end of the walk
in our case. And I think that is one of
the core aspects that we need to really look at
(28:05):
compassionately and actually ask ourselves those questions. But thankfully we've
now got the science that would be able to back
that up. There's been huge numbers of experiments and observations,
and when you look at the nervous system of a fish,
it detects the same kind of pain that humans do,
the sort of heat the I forget, like the five kinds,
but we reflect the same way. So I think there's
(28:26):
also a Peter Singer quote who wrote Animal Liberation years
ago that says, you know, in all the ways that
we find to justify why humans are better than the
animals in our suffering, the animals and us are the same.
We suffer the same. I think there's a really interesting
area of literature in sort of animal studies or the
observation of animals, which we weren't able to squeeze into
(28:48):
the film just a little bit about the sentience of fish,
which is really mind blowing. That's something that I really
recommend people look into themselves, and it's something that we're
going to be putting more effort in to communicating on
our c Spiracy Instagram because I think it's it's such
an For a long time, we told ourselves that humans
were the only animals that use tools, and then of
course Jane Goodall was able to document that apes were
(29:09):
doing that as well in the heart of Africa. And
now we're finding more and more that more animals are
using tools, including fish who are able to use tools
to crack open shells and find food that way. And
I think we're actually finding that we're more like animals
than we realized all these years. That actually justified our
treatment of those animals. We named ourselves human beings kind
(29:31):
of aspiration lee to be those humane beings, and I
don't think we've quite lived up to our title yet. Yeah,
So I guess we have to ask ourselves, are we
comfortable knowing that our food came from mass murder and pain,
right or? I mean, does that really feel good to us?
Does that feel healing? And I hope the answers. No,
(29:53):
there's a there's a response that some people can have
to watching a film, might see spiracy or either films,
and that they sometimes might want to shy away from it,
and that you know, I don't want to see that.
I don't want to look at it. And of course,
if it's not good enough for your eyes, why is
it good enough for your stomach? And I think consuming
those things, I don't think it's just inherently good for us.
(30:14):
Um Psychologically, there's a huge amount of effort that goes
into the cognitive distance of that in order to block
out that reality. There's a huge gray area that where
that we're not looking at. And I said, I think
when we start addressing that, although it may be confrontational
at first, it's precisely the area that we do need
to look in order to sort of grow as people
and to do that healing that we need to do. Uh,
(30:36):
and and to look in those areas that we've been
avoiding all this time. I think when in therapy and
in psychology, it's it's about looking at those things that
we've been avoiding feeling for so long. That is where
the healing really needs to take place. Yeah, well, if
there's anything he wants to want to tell me otherwise.
I mean, I'm just so grateful that you've been here
a talking to me all this time. No, I appreciate
(30:59):
this is thank you so much for having me on
the show. It's it's it's really a pleasure to be
able to speak about something I'm passionate about on a
platform like yours. You know, even if we can inspire
just a couple of people to sort of look at
this further, then I'm happy. And I think if people
haven't watched the film already, then then the film is there.
It's available. It's sort of an engine that's always going
(31:19):
to be on the Netflix platform to to raise awareness
and educate and also entertain. It's something to you know,
to watch over dinner with a friend. But also we
are taking the mission and the journey beyond that. So
we've got our social media platforms and that's where you know,
every day or every other day, we're putting out you know,
more breaking news, more investigations, videos, carousels, and things like
(31:40):
that to really keep the conversation alive, because it's so
important that this isn't just a flash in the pan
and that it can, to use a phrase that we
so often criticize in the film, be a sustainable kind
of message going forward. You know, yes, well, I can't
wait to see all that you continue to do. I'm
going to follow you on Instagram immediately so that I
can be up what c Spirit is doing. And um,
(32:03):
just thank you so much from the bottom of my
heart for what you're doing in the world. Thank you
so much. Thank you and continue you know, doing what
you're doing it with this, with this great podcast to
inspire healing. Thank you. To dig deeper into this episode's
topic and resources, visit the kind Life dot com. The
(32:27):
Real Hell is an I Heart Radio production made in
partnership with Frequency Media. I'm your host Alicia Silverstone from
I Heart Radio. Are managing producer is Lindsay Hoffman from
Frequency Media. Michelle Corey is our executive producer. Jordan's Rizzieri
is our producer, and Imani Leonard and Laura Boyman are
(32:49):
our associate producers. Sydney Evans is our dialogue editor, and
Claire bit Of Gary Curtis is our mixer and sound designer.
This podcast is available on the I Heart Radio app, Spotify,
Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, and wherever podcasts are found. H
What is it really gonna take to heal ourselves, our communities,
and our planet. I'm Alicia Silverstone, and this is the
real heal. There's something magnificent about the vastness of the oceans,
(00:24):
the unimaginable biodiversity, the many ecosystems it sustains, the way
it gives us fresh air to breathe by controlling CEO
two levels. But what happens when this extraordinary system gets disrupted?
In this episode, I sit down with Ali Too Breezy,
director of the popular Netflix documentary c Spiracy. We talk
(00:47):
about Ali's transformative experience while filming and how healing our
oceans is a critical step in healing ourselves. So, without
further ado, let's get into the real hell. Hi there, Ali,
(01:08):
I am so excited to talk to you today about
oceans and all kinds of things on the real he'll welcome.
Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure
to be here. I'm so grateful for the work that
you're doing. I your film was so powerful, but I
just wanted to thank you from the bottom of my
heart because I think you're incredible. Wow. I wasn't expecting that.
(01:31):
Thank you so much, it's it's always incredible to me
every time someone says something like that, because, as you know,
you make a film and you kind of sent off
into the universe and then there it lives. And then
because it was launched during COVID, we didn't have like
an in person premiere, and so all the interaction has
literally been through these kinds of moments of people sort
of telling me how they how they viewed it, and
(01:52):
so it's it's amazing to hear that the film has
sort of achieved its goal in terms of sort of
awakening some awareness and an action for the ocean. Yes,
I have been on this journey for twenty five years
or something, and I didn't know so much of what
you taught me. I want to start though, by talking
(02:14):
about how you're just a guy who really was when
you were a child you just love the ocean. Can
you tell us about sort of you as a little
a little person who had an interest in this so
we can understand where this love came from. Well, I
think it starts from growing up by the coast here
in the southeast of England, and it's just the place
(02:36):
that you go during the summer breaks. It's the place
that you go after school. It was always just a
place that I hung out, you know, I would go
skateboarding by the by the ocean on the boulevard, and
so it was just always there. And obviously David Attenborough
is a little bit of a legend here in the UK,
and you grew up watching his films, and I think
previous generation would be someone like Jacques Cousteau, And I
(02:59):
think of the Mystery and Wonder was born out of
the idea that just to be on the horizon, there's
this whole incredible world. It's just beneath the surface and
you can go out there and you can explore it.
And these incredible shots of dolphins leaping out the water
and slow motion and these coral reefs and the incredible
handsomer music playing in the background. It's just something that
(03:19):
just the the adventure was calling me. And so, you know,
I really wanted to one day explore the world. I
wanted to travel, and as I was entering my late
teen years, it was really when I started to see
that there was a change in the way that the
ocean was being reported, and not only that, the way
I was viewing the ocean. It seemed like there was
(03:40):
less wildlife, even here in the UK, where isn't really
much at all. And one day actually just after school,
coming back home, there was this huge whale, like this
giant whale that washed up on the beach just down
the road basically from where I lived. And that was
the first time I had actually seen one of these
huge giants like that close up. And it felt like
I'd been the opportunity to see that wonder that I
(04:03):
always wanted was kind of stolen away from me because
it was it was just laying there dead, and of
course in its stomach was marine debris, plastics and things
like that, and so that started to enter my consciousness
about how the oceans really were. And I guess before
I knew I over the years, slowly, slowly, I was
starting to understand more and more, and to the point
when I was like, yeah, twenty one when I began
(04:25):
making this film, really understand there's a broader picture. So
you know, then going to Japan and then going here
and there, and then I guess that's where the sort
of Alison wonder Land down the rabbit Hole kind of started.
So you really somewhere along that way before you went
to start making this film, it became clear that you
were so passionate about what you were learning that you
(04:46):
had to tell the story. Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, I understand
that you've basically set up a disrupt foundation with the
mission to improve the lives of people, animals, and the
health of coc systems. Through there on your ongoing work
to ensure a prosperous and thriving planet for current and
future generations. I guess why I'm saying that is so
(05:10):
that we can help people understand your overall mission. That
if because I think a lot of people hear the
words the spiracy and they go, I don't want to
see that because it's going to make me stop eating fish.
And then I have to say, well, if you're scared
of watching it, you really should watch it, right because
maybe you won't give up eating fish, but maybe you'll
learn a bunch of stuff and and have a better
(05:30):
understanding of what what you are choosing. But your mission
is bigger than just that, and so I would like
to seduce people in by having them understand what you're
what you're really trying to do here, and how it
affects all of us, not just fish. The Netflix documentary reached.
I mean, I don't know how many millions of people
(05:51):
it reached, but really there's so much that we couldn't
fit into that film that we really wanted a space
where we could explore those stories more and support those
grass routes activists and to dive into further research and
investigation and keep educating the public. And so that's why
we set that up. And so this is something that
affects all of us no matter where you are on Earth.
(06:12):
The oceans we are on a blue planet, is providing
most of our oxygen, like our oxygen, and this isn't
just about marine wildlife. This is also about people. Every year,
about twenty four thousand fisheries workers die within the fishing industry.
Slavery and these fishing vessels on these fishing boats have
been reported about forty seven countries. And in the film
(06:33):
we would explored the slavery that was happening in Thailand,
but there's been slavery that's been reported off the coast
of European country. So this is really all over the
world where where witnessing this happen. And one of the
reasons for that is that with an ocean which is
being plundered of wildlife. It's now taking longer and longer
to catch those fish, and so more fuel is being burned,
(06:55):
The ships need more maintenance, and so the only way
these captains can really cut down on cost is on
the human labor. And so that's why we've seen this
rise in human slavery within the fishing industry as a
means of cutting back on the costs. And and so
that's that's really the mission of c Spiracy is. You know,
we absolutely need to protect wildlife, we absolutely need to
(07:15):
protect those ecosystems, but we also need to approach this
from a human rights angle as well. And so that's
really the mission of what c Spiracy is about, and
why we've continued so hard on social media to continue
investigating and educating the public. Yeah, that was I had
no idea when I watched about the Slaves. That was
fascinating and I can't even imagine. And I wanted to
(07:37):
say that when I saw the film. The one little
good news about the movie, I guess if you could
say is that you know a lot of these films
about animals or about our earth crush, you I would
be hysterically bawling at the end of a film. The
good news about c spiracy. I will say that while
you're speaking about these very sad things, it's not a
(08:00):
sad movie. I didn't cry watching your movie. I just
learned a lot. I don't know that it's good or bad,
other than I want to say to people, don't be afraid.
You won't be crushed, You'll just learn. Yeah, I mean,
that's the thing. We didn't want to make a film
that was sort of being people over the head with
something that all throughout the movie. You know, we never
(08:23):
you know, as a narrator, I never sort of said
what people should do. It was very much coming from
the people that I was meeting and speaking to, and
and so yeah, it was it was striking that balance,
you know. And there was also so many things that
we didn't include in the movie because it would have
just been too dense, and we just wanted to capture
the whole picture and make sure it was easy to
(08:43):
follow and it was entertaining and it was also educational. Yeah,
you made this quote that I think is so important.
Tuna isn't a sandwich filling. It's a wild animal. Many
of these species that were killing and eating are threatened
or endangered. It's like going into the African savannah hunting
down a rhino, chopping it up and putting it in
(09:06):
a sandwich. We have to ask ourselves the question, is
this the species we want to be? And you know,
you have to kind of see the film to understand
the whole context of that. But basically, I always knew
that the fish were big fish, and that it was
that they didn't want their lives to be taken, and
that it was not a nice thing to watch them
suffer when they are taken out of the water. But
(09:28):
what I didn't know was that if you choose a
fish to eat, that you're really choosing the slaughter of
a dolphin, a whale, a shark, and a turtle. That
all of these creatures that we're trying to protect and
that we love and admire and go look at and love,
and we know that many of them are going extinct,
that those are the animals that were killing when you
(09:50):
choose tuna sandwich or any fish sandwich. And I think
that's really really powerful, and I didn't understand that, So
I'm I'm so happy to have learned that from you. Yeah,
there's a there's a huge amount of collateral damage. There's
a huge number of invisible victims. Whenever you you're you're
partaking in part of the seafood industry, you're you're literally
(10:11):
dunking these killing devices, these nets into the abyss. You
can't see what's down there, and you're catching everything, and
then you pull it up on the boat and okay,
you select what you want and what you can sell,
and you throw the rest overboard. But what gets thrown
overboard is often those whales, those sharks, those dolphins. Even
though there are these organizations and systems in place for
(10:32):
dolphins safe, when we went to speak to those organizations,
they could not guarantee anything and that they basically admitted
that their labels are useless, which was shocking to me.
And so I think it just feeds back into this
corruption and this deceit that is so prominent when you're
looking at these kinds of labels which quite frankly don't
(10:55):
mean anything, and it's just greenwashing. It's just a marketing term.
And the victims at the to the day, ah, those wildlife,
those those dolphins, those whales, and we've seen those populations
crashing all around the world over the last like fifty
years on the watch of those sustainability labels. Mm hmm.
The sustainability thing is really really hard because I think
(11:17):
that I was at the farmer's market the other day
and I saw a really longline for the sustainable fish,
and I just thought, like, maybe at the farmer's market,
maybe that person goes out in a tiny boat and
collects it. I don't know. I've never talked to the
guy because I don't go there to get fish, so
but I would. But I thought, this is probably not
(11:38):
actually sustainable. And you know, you have these apps that
tell you this fish is more sustainable than that fish.
I think that the organizations have those, and ultimately it's
not sustainable at all. Just in the same way that
we have this misconception about the sort of small local farm,
the same is true with the small local fishing industry.
(12:00):
And so in the film we referenced one for example,
that was in Iceland and as a small fishing fleet,
I think in a matter of was it a month,
they were catching something like nine hundred seals again, like
thousand porpoises, and like five thousand seabirds in just a
month of buy catch. And this again is a very
small scale local Icelandic fishery that is having huge amounts
(12:23):
of bycatch, and so that's happening around the world. You know,
sustainability is only measured in terms of the sort of
human consumption element of it. So let's say we have
a certain number of map cral or a certain number
of small fish here, and we say, okay, well, let's
take this amount this year and next year. The idea
would be that they replenished themselves. But that's not taking
(12:43):
into account that when you remove that portion, you've also
removed the food for the dolphins and the whales and
the turtles who are now having less food that they
can eat. And so sustainability is only really measuring human consumption,
not the overall big picture. And so yes, for me,
sustainable fishing it's a bit of a myth. It's a
huge myth for me. Well, let's talk a little bit
(13:19):
about subsidies, because I think that people have no idea.
The fishing industry gets thirty five billion dollars in subsidies
a year. This is so disgusting and why how do
they even justify needing that or asking for that? How
does that go down? Yeah, so a subsidy for people
(13:40):
who don't know much about economics, is basically where the
government takes tax pay money and gives it to an
industry in order to manipulate the price of a products
or service. What we're seeing with the fishing industry is
that it's becoming so incredibly expensive to catch fish because
you've got these often multi million dollar fishing vessels who
(14:02):
require huge amounts of resources to run them. The fuel,
the crew, the maintenance, the fishing licenses, and and needing
to travel internationally. It's dangerous work. And not only that
the fish are running out. We've already lost the large
fish in our ocean in the last fifty something years,
and we're with you know, many shark species are down
(14:24):
to like ninety nine. They've all gone. The ocean is
just completely being drained of fish, and so they need
to stay at sea far longer to catch anything. And
so the government, by giving that money to the fishing industry,
can sort of buff with a price of fish down
to a sort of affordable rate. What's actually happening now
is that many fishing vessels are actually going to catch
(14:46):
the subsidies and not to catch the fish. They are
only going out to sea to become eligible to get
the subsidy, which is really what's keeping them afloat. And
so if we were to remove fishing subsidies from the
fishing industry, you would probably see more than half of
the fishing fleet go out of business overnight. They just
wouldn't be able to afford it. And so our governments
(15:06):
are taking our taxpayer money giving it to an industry
that is set on the slaughter of marine wildlife and
the destruction of probably i would argue, the most important
ecosystem on Earth, and not even being able to show
anything for it. Within the EU, many countries are giving
tens of millions of euros into the sort of EU
(15:28):
phishing subsidies without getting anything back. So some countries are
giving millions and getting zero value in terms of fish
product back. It's a complete money pit. And it's the
same as what's happening with animal agriculture on land, and
I would like to see them go as well. I
think that hearing about subsidies and you're explaining it so beautifully,
(15:50):
it just makes me think that we don't there isn't
enough awareness about this that people really just don't understand
that it's not sustainable. System, the government giving so much
money to these industries which are essentially or corporate. They're
not the little guy, and they do it in the disguise.
The argument would be, but we have to feed the people,
(16:12):
so we have to keep these companies afloat. If they
would just allow them to disappear and let the little
guys do the work, it would be so much better,
allow it to have its true cost. And so how
do we get that message out there? How do we
spread this more that sub what actually subsidies do, and
how to stop it? Can we stop it? Mm hmm.
(16:33):
So I mean we have three messages which are cool
to actions at the end of the film and that
we continue to promote, and that is that we all
need to shift towards a plant based diet as much
as possible. And so really that is encapsulated by the
words stop we need to stop partaking in this in
this industry. The other one is to protect We need
to protect large as areas of the ocean, but we
(16:55):
we need to defund the fishing subsidies. And what people
don't realize is that when they go out and they
buy that filet of fish or the seafood or the
prawns or whatever they might be doing. They're actually paying
for it twice or three times so once when they
go and pit the counter, but they've already paid for
that in their taxes. Governments are taking taxpayer money and
(17:16):
they are handing it in the form of thirty five
billion dollars every year to the fishing industry to artificially
manipulate the price of fish to be cheaper, because it's
actually an incredibly expensive product to try and get to
a supermarket shelf. About half of all fishing, especially on
the high seas, is completely unprofitable if it weren't for subsidies.
(17:38):
The rest of the percentage is just about breaking even.
And so if you were to remove those subsidies, you
would see most of the fishing fleet return to port
and be out of business because just simply not an
effective efficient way of producing food. The most efficient is
obviously in in plant based agriculture, and so I think
if we were to remove them, you would very quickly
(17:58):
see that signal ripple out through the marketplace and people
would see actually how luxurious and unattainable these products really are,
which are currently being disguised as very very cheap food.
That's being sold in McDonald's and school canteens, and really,
I think that would incentivize people to shift more towards
buying plants instead. I think, what are the things that
(18:19):
just to help listeners understand why they should care, because
maybe they go, I don't care about whales, I don't
care about dolphins, I don't care about human rights. I
don't care about people being murdered. I don't care about
people being slaves on boats. I don't care about any
of that. How could you not? But let's say they don't.
So then another thing that we have to have them
understand is that without the ocean, which we are destroying,
(18:43):
we will have no food, that there's no oxygen. Can
you explain that a little bit about how urgently we
need this to shift, not only because climate change is
coming upon us so quickly, but how that is affecting
the ocean and your day to day What will it
mean if we have no fish in this ocean? It?
What will it mean? I think, coming from a selfish
(19:05):
position on this is It's not a position that I'm
used to taking, but I think there is inherently selfish
benefits to not having a planet with a dead ocean.
The ocean provides of the world's oxygen, so that's roughly
eight out of every tem breast that you're breathing was
an exhalation from the ocean. And it's not the water,
(19:27):
it's these microscopic phytoplankton in the ocean. Without them, we
don't have a planet to live on. Kiss goodbye all
your dreams and all your ambitions and everyday life. And
one of the major threats to phytoplankton is the destruction
of the wild life in the ocean. The whales, the fish,
the turtles, which are actually acting like the gardeners of
(19:51):
the ocean, who are frequently fertilizing and and mixing up nutrients.
And I often wonder the sort of intelligent design argument
of why, because they're so genius the way this whole
mechanism works, and I love telling the story. Basically, whales,
large whales, in order to feed, they need to dive
to the dark depths where it's very nutrient dence, but
there's no sunlight that so no plants can grow. But
(20:15):
in order to breathe, they need to return to the
surface where there isn't a lot of nutrients, but there
is sunlight for those plants to grow. And so basically,
when a whale dives down deep, it collects all these
nutrients in the food eats, and when it goes to
the top, it breathes and it releases those nutrients in
the form of manure. And so by doing that every
single day, that is keeping us alive. So we need
(20:35):
those whales, and we also need the fish who are
doing the same thing. So without fish, without whales, we
wouldn't have oxygen in our lungs. And so that's, I mean,
a pretty obvious reason why we need to protect the ocean,
not to mention all the other sort of incredible things
that come from the ocean, the sort of tourism and
all the rest of it. So that's that, That would
(20:55):
be my main argument. Breathe. That was what I was
looking for, because I think that it's easy to not
understand any of that, to not understand that it's not
a when you choose like, oh, I want to have
that fish taco. Yeah, they're really delicious, but what is
it going to cost me? What is it going to
cost in ten years? I don't understand how it isn't
(21:17):
at the top priority of every living being. Because it's
a real threat, and I just the industries that thrive
and make money off of it continue to tell us
that it's I don't worry about it, there's no problem.
I don't worry about a no scroll problem. But it
is a really real problem, and it's they're going to
be faced with it soon and then what like how
(21:39):
will they deal with this? So I'm thinking about all
(22:00):
of what you're saying is so powerful, and so I'm
just so happy that you're expressing all of this, and
their film does it so beautifully, and again you must, must,
must watch it. But I'm just thinking to the person
who's going, but wait a second. But it's yummy, and
I need it for my health, for your health. The
omega's we get from walnuts, we get from seaweed, the
(22:22):
food that the animals that these fish are eating cut
out the middleman, you know. And I have tons of
great seaweed recipes in my book, The Kind Diet and
the Kind Mama, and seaweed is so good for your skin,
it's so nourishing and healing. It's a really important thing
to add into your life. But we don't need fish
to do it. Now. On the yummy section. I just
(22:42):
wanted to ask you, aside from all the things that
are yummy out there that you can eat their plant base,
because anybody given one plate of food, if there's two
plates of food, one is right here and it causes destruction,
and it causes all the suffering, but it's yummy, and
there's another plate right here that's just as yummy, but
it doesn't create any destruction. I think any person would
(23:02):
pick the one that doesn't cause destruction. But I don't
think people are informed about that. So what I wanted
to ask you is what is the yummiest fish substitutes
that you have found? Don't give shout outs to like
your friend companies. I want to know what is the
yummiest because there's a lot of faux fish, But what
is like the ones that you say a meat eater
(23:22):
would be impressed by. Man, That's a great question, Okay,
selfish question for me. So in the UK there is
a growing number of really excellent fish and chips, which
is a very British kind of dish, battle fish with chips.
A friend of mine who some listeners may be aware of,
he's called arthling ed Um. He's a vegan activist, from
(23:45):
the UK and I believe he has a restaurant in
London called Unity Diner and in Unity Dinner as well
as another one which is called the No Catch Co
which is now on the seafront in Brighton. They're selling
incredible vegan fish and chips. So that's a incredible one.
But I think I don't know what what it's based.
It might be tofu, but they've done something really special
(24:05):
with it. It's really incredible. And also there are a
lot of incredible vegan battered prawns and tuna and there's
so many alternatives. And I think what's it exciting about
this space in particular is because it's they're the newest ones.
You know, we've had plant based milks for quite a while,
you know, the awful soy milks from years ago, but
(24:27):
now the really good ones, and there's been like the
beyond meats and the impossible meats come in and beyond
the sort of chicken substitute which I basically the same,
they taste the same with seafood. It's only just starting
to come in um. And what was exciting was that
when the film was released, just a matter of weeks later,
a vegan Tuna Company had secured something like twenty six
(24:51):
million in investment off the back of I think the
hype of the film, and so that's really exciting to
see that this is a new emergence emerging space in
the sort of plant based food sector which is growing
really rapidly. But yeah, you can't be a good old
even like a whole foods based vegan sushi. I mean,
I love, I love that kind of stuff. You know,
you can create banana blossom fish is incredible. I don't
(25:13):
know if you've tried that banana blossom Have you ever
tried it? No, you can basically deep fry it and
it has the texture of the flaky texture of fish
and it's incredible. So there's a growing So basically the
alternatives are out there and they're getting really really good,
and I think another couple of years and we'll see
them exponentially improve. And I think it's gonna be really
(25:36):
easy for people to transition because like you gave that
example of like hey, you have one dish here which
causes suffering and the other one which causes negligible suffering
or no suffering. Of course, the no brain would be
to go to the no suffering, But what if it
tasted like cardboard? And now, of course the masses aren't
going to do that. Maybe you will, maybe I will,
but most people weren't. So I think it's really important
(25:57):
that those companies are developing those products do that best
to be as lifelike as possible to the real thing,
because until that happens, it's not going to be a
very easy transition for a lot of people. Yeah, and
so again, I want everyone to come as far on
this journey as they can and to not be dissuaded
because they can't do it all the way. I think
that's the key. I'm willing to do this all the way.
(26:19):
You're willing to do this all the way. But there
have been times where I've had oopsie doopsies, and so
just to say, just to say that, I'd rather someone
declare I'm going to be vegan, and I'm going to
do the best I can to do this, and every
day I'm going to wake up and be vegan, and
then oops, I messed up. Great, get right back on
back on track. That kind of a vegan of an
oopsy doopsy vegan is way better than nothing at all,
(26:42):
Because if we decide to just not do it, then
we're not going to make any progress. You know, if
we had the majority of people eating mostly plants, it
would do overall better than just a few people who
are hardcore vegans. So the more people that can transition
in the direction of being plant based, the better it
will be. For some people, it will be an overnight transition.
(27:04):
For others it might take a couple of weeks. But
a lot is just forming those new habits and understanding, okay,
what are the new foods and finding those alternatives. And
so what's been really cool is at the beginning by
going when going vegan, it did feel like I was
giving up a lot of things, and those sort of
traditional things I used to eat growing up, And now
I've been able to rediscover them and enjoy them again.
(27:24):
And it's simply just swapping out the real chicken or
the real fish for the plant based alternative. I've got
to say that they're getting really, really good. So yeah,
and what about the fact that people say that fish
don't feel m hmmm. I think that's the story we
tell ourselves to justify the way that we treat them.
(27:45):
I think it isn't something that we only do to fish.
It's something that happens in times of war and crisis,
the dehumanization that's stripping away of any sort of autonomy
from the victims that might be at the other end
of the gun, but the other end of the walk
in our case. And I think that is one of
the core aspects that we need to really look at
(28:05):
compassionately and actually ask ourselves those questions. But thankfully we've
now got the science that would be able to back
that up. There's been huge numbers of experiments and observations,
and when you look at the nervous system of a fish,
it detects the same kind of pain that humans do,
the sort of heat the I forget, like the five kinds,
but we reflect the same way. So I think there's
(28:26):
also a Peter Singer quote who wrote Animal Liberation years
ago that says, you know, in all the ways that
we find to justify why humans are better than the
animals in our suffering, the animals and us are the same.
We suffer the same. I think there's a really interesting
area of literature in sort of animal studies or the
observation of animals, which we weren't able to squeeze into
(28:48):
the film just a little bit about the sentience of fish,
which is really mind blowing. That's something that I really
recommend people look into themselves, and it's something that we're
going to be putting more effort in to communicating on
our c Spiracy Instagram because I think it's it's such
an For a long time, we told ourselves that humans
were the only animals that use tools, and then of
course Jane Goodall was able to document that apes were
(29:09):
doing that as well in the heart of Africa. And
now we're finding more and more that more animals are
using tools, including fish who are able to use tools
to crack open shells and find food that way. And
I think we're actually finding that we're more like animals
than we realized all these years. That actually justified our
treatment of those animals. We named ourselves human beings kind
(29:31):
of aspiration lee to be those humane beings, and I
don't think we've quite lived up to our title yet. Yeah,
So I guess we have to ask ourselves, are we
comfortable knowing that our food came from mass murder and pain,
right or? I mean, does that really feel good to us?
Does that feel healing? And I hope the answers. No,
(29:53):
there's a there's a response that some people can have
to watching a film, might see spiracy or either films,
and that they sometimes might want to shy away from it,
and that you know, I don't want to see that.
I don't want to look at it. And of course,
if it's not good enough for your eyes, why is
it good enough for your stomach? And I think consuming
those things, I don't think it's just inherently good for us.
(30:14):
Um Psychologically, there's a huge amount of effort that goes
into the cognitive distance of that in order to block
out that reality. There's a huge gray area that where
that we're not looking at. And I said, I think
when we start addressing that, although it may be confrontational
at first, it's precisely the area that we do need
to look in order to sort of grow as people
and to do that healing that we need to do. Uh,
(30:36):
and and to look in those areas that we've been
avoiding all this time. I think when in therapy and
in psychology, it's it's about looking at those things that
we've been avoiding feeling for so long. That is where
the healing really needs to take place. Yeah, well, if
there's anything he wants to want to tell me otherwise.
I mean, I'm just so grateful that you've been here
a talking to me all this time. No, I appreciate
(30:59):
this is thank you so much for having me on
the show. It's it's it's really a pleasure to be
able to speak about something I'm passionate about on a
platform like yours. You know, even if we can inspire
just a couple of people to sort of look at
this further, then I'm happy. And I think if people
haven't watched the film already, then then the film is there.
It's available. It's sort of an engine that's always going
(31:19):
to be on the Netflix platform to to raise awareness
and educate and also entertain. It's something to you know,
to watch over dinner with a friend. But also we
are taking the mission and the journey beyond that. So
we've got our social media platforms and that's where you know,
every day or every other day, we're putting out you know,
more breaking news, more investigations, videos, carousels, and things like
(31:40):
that to really keep the conversation alive, because it's so
important that this isn't just a flash in the pan
and that it can, to use a phrase that we
so often criticize in the film, be a sustainable kind
of message going forward. You know, yes, well, I can't
wait to see all that you continue to do. I'm
going to follow you on Instagram immediately so that I
can be up what c Spirit is doing. And um,
(32:03):
just thank you so much from the bottom of my
heart for what you're doing in the world. Thank you
so much. Thank you and continue you know, doing what
you're doing it with this, with this great podcast to
inspire healing. Thank you. To dig deeper into this episode's
topic and resources, visit the kind Life dot com. The
(32:27):
Real Hell is an I Heart Radio production made in
partnership with Frequency Media. I'm your host Alicia Silverstone from
I Heart Radio. Are managing producer is Lindsay Hoffman from
Frequency Media. Michelle Corey is our executive producer. Jordan's Rizzieri
is our producer, and Imani Leonard and Laura Boyman are
(32:49):
our associate producers. Sydney Evans is our dialogue editor, and
Claire bit Of Gary Curtis is our mixer and sound designer.
This podcast is available on the I Heart Radio app, Spotify,
Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, and wherever podcasts are found. H
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com