January 27, 2022 • 52 mins
Rodney Lincoln has now spent more than three decades in prison and his legal options are running out. But, there is a glimmer of hope when the new St. Louis Circuit Attorney Kim Gardner says his case deserves another look. Then, a scandal at the highest level changes everything.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Who do you think killed Joe Ane Tate? I had
no idea. It could have been Tommy Lindsild. It could
have been the guy who's baby shutting food Joanne, Steve Yanstree.
(00:25):
It could have been show out together different Rodney Lincoln
doesn't know who murdered Joanne and hurt her daughters. All
he knows is the state of Missouri still treating him
as if he's the one who did it. They had
to conviction. They don't want to go. I'm Leah Rothman.
(00:59):
This is the real Killer Episode eight thirty six years
and ten days. What happened when I recanted was the
most baffling set of circumstances. Uh. I definitely did not
(01:22):
expect the pushback and a negative reaction that I got
from people in the system. I really thought that they
would be just as gung hole as I was and
get the paperwork rolling and get everything moving. You're not
supposed to have innocent people in prison, right, Melissa Daboors
(01:43):
recantation does not result in Rodney's release that year or
even the next. For Melissa, that reality is unbearable. The
depression that came after I came forward because the dust
settled It was by far, probably the second worst in
(02:05):
my life. Twice I studied the train the train tracks,
waiting for the train, and I was ready to jump.
A couple of times I swallowed too much medication and
I wake up throwing up and angry that I was
still there. I had been hurting and fighting and treading
water my whole life. I was exhausted. I didn't want
(02:30):
to be in the world anymore, because not only did
was he either because of me. He was gonna die
in there because of me. Melissa is struggling, and so
are Rodney and his family after they suffer a devastating loss.
Jesse Jesse was her name. Here's Rodney's daughter ka. On
(02:53):
June twel my dad's granddaughter, My daughter was murdered. Jesse
had just gotten off work and she took her boyfriend
somewhere where he shouldn't have been going. And as he
was waiting to meet with the person, somebody walked up
to the car and pulled a gun. She tried to
(03:15):
drive away. They fired two shots into the car. One
hit her and the arm went straight through her arm
into her heart. She drove two blocks, got her baby
and her boyfriend away from the scene and then she
collapsed and he called and they were able to transport
(03:37):
her to the hospital, but she died during surgery. Three
years old, left a two year old baby. So in
the middle of everything that's going on with your dad,
you lose your daughter and now you have you take
her child corner. He's so much like her, he has
(03:59):
her heart. Did they ever catch her killer? They actually
did catch the man that killed my daughter, and he
actually killed another young man three days before my daughter,
and three days before that committed an armed robbery. They
did catch him. My daughter's boyfriend identified him. He was indicted,
(04:24):
He went to trial, and at trial, the only eyewitness
for my daughter was her boyfriend who has a substance
abuse problem. And the defense attorney did a hell of
a lot better job than my dad's defense attorney did,
and the defense attorney just destroyed him. Prosecuting attorney didn't
(04:48):
really do anything to rebut that, and he was acquitted.
And that was just so so hard to hear. You know,
you fight the justice system all these years to get
(05:08):
somebody who's been wrongfully convicted free, and then you're you're
sitting on the other side of the aisle and you're
wanting them to do what you know they need to do,
and they let you down again. Yeah, I mean, it's
it's really hard to reconcile these two truths. How one
(05:34):
system can fail in so many ways. I feel so
many people in so many ways. Months later, a glimmer
of hope in Kimberly Gardner becomes the new St. Louis
Circuit Attorney. She's the first black woman elected to the office.
(05:56):
She ran on a justice reform platform, and one of
her first orders of business was to review potentially questionable
convictions from the past. Tell me about your conviction integrity
units and why you felt it was necessary to start
one when I took office. When we talk about the
(06:18):
integrity of the criminal justice system, UM, the ability for
prosecutors to correct wealth of convictions is key because things
can happen um so um day. One One of the
big pieces that I wanted to implement inside the office
is having a sent alone conviction integrity unit that is
separated from the day to day of the office, reports
(06:38):
directly to myself and we review these tough cases that
we all know. Good people can make bad mistakes, or
there may be some issues that prosecutors need to kind
of reconsider and we look at and if we look
at that case today, how will we try that case?
And maybe maybe there was mistakes of how the investigation
took place, the interrogation tactics of police, or was there
(07:01):
things that a prosecutor should have turned over to the
other side that would have had a different outcome. And
I think it's critical not only to that person who
there may be wrongfully convicted or we find, um something
that we need to correct, But at the same time,
it's a training tool for our prosecutors of what not
to do and what we need to work on better. So, um,
(07:23):
Rodney Lincoln's case, when you first learned of his case,
what did you think? Well, I mean, like everybody else,
I heard of it, you know, in the news. But um,
you know, I never had the luxury of really delving
into the case until it was time for me to
kind of look at this case and kind of say, hey,
there may be some issues. And then we had a
(07:44):
victim say that this individual did not commit this crime.
Once I had did our due diligence, Rodney Lincoln's case
was going to be the first UH Conviction Integrity Unit
case that our office had Originally, while Kim Gardner's conviction
and a gritty Unit begins looking at Rodney's case, his attorneys,
Tricia Rojo Bushnell and Shaun O'Brien file a one hundred
(08:07):
and twenty page writ of habeas corpus to the Missouri
Court of Appeals Western District. It's the next step after
Judge Green's sixteen denial in Cole County. Here's Tricia. So
we went to the Court of Appeals and we said, hey,
this was a bad decision down below, no evidence left
a convictim. And the Court of Appeals said, um that
(08:29):
it did not have the power two overturn a conviction
based on innocence unless the defendant was sentenced to death,
and Rodney Lincoln had not been sentenced to death. Forgive me,
but two life sentences equals death, right, Well that's you know,
Sean likes to say it's death on the installment plan, right,
(08:51):
So it's it is death, it's death in prison, but
it is it is death at the hands of the
state by time, right, but not I one overt act
and so but that's not what the court found. So
we asked the Supreme Court for review. We wanted them
to weigh in um, and they declined to review it.
And so that, um was was the end of that appeal.
(09:16):
I mean, the things that are very clear in my
mind was getting that opinion. And I was at some
you know, some meeting with a bunch of people in it,
and I just walked outside and sat on the curve
and just cried and cried and cried. And I just
remember thinking, Um, if we can't bring Rodney home, what
(09:42):
are we even doing? Should I even be a lawyer anymore? Sorry?
I didn't expect that. Oh, and I can, I mean,
I can imagine, like you're fighting so hard, and it
seems so obvious. It seems like they're fighting to keep
him in. They absolutely are, and he's not the only one.
(10:04):
They do it over and over and over. For the
last thirty years, the Attorney General Missouri has fought every
single innocence case. Why there's a great question, A great question, um.
And so it can feel, um, you know, like a
Sisyphus moment. Right, we keep rolling the rock up, um.
(10:27):
And it shouldn't be this hard. It may be someone
in Kim Gardner's office who's making things even harder. It's
a name you've heard many times before former Assistant Circuit
Attorney and Chief Warrant Officer Ed Pistaco. Here's Shawn O'Brien.
(10:48):
There was a hearing in front of the Missouri Board
of Probation and Parole because Rodney was eligible for parole
um and at this point Melissa is on board with
his release, the Circuit attorney Kim Gardners on board with
his release, and without any notice to anybody to Kim
to us, Ed Pistaco goes down to the Missouri Board
(11:11):
of Probation and Parole and makes a presentation that will
never know what he said because those files are closed
by law. We cannot get into those files. Kim can't.
We can't, but I think I know what he said.
You know, it did not take the Parole Board very
(11:33):
long at all to deny relief. And now that would
have been Rodney's best chance for release, and I'm sure
Ed Pistaco went down there to torpedo it. I asked
our gon attorney Kim Gardner about this parole hearing. I
can confirm that I can confirm that Epistocle represented the
office with no authority at the time. I had just
(11:56):
taken office, so that happened. I think into was in
seventeen and um with no authority to represent the office.
And at that time I also requested what was said
in that parole hearing and was not even access. So
that is disturbing to me that even the Circuit Attorney,
(12:17):
who the person was representing the sentiments of office that
they're actually working for the Parole Board, would not give
me access to at Pistaco's statements and that hearing. It
defies logic, right, I mean, how can Kim Gardner, the
elected circuit attorney, be denied access to what ed Pistaco,
(12:38):
someone who went there representing her office said in that
parole hearing. We're gonna talk a lot more about Kim Gardner.
Her reform policies are being met with intense and unprecedented opposition,
which many say, at its core is racist. By the way,
I still haven't heard from at Pistaco. Now it's midam
(13:06):
and Rodney won't be eligible for parole for three more years.
But maybe Kim Gardner can help in another way. Here's
Tricia again. We go and meet with her to talk
about some ideas of some filings that we think she
could do, and essentially there is a rule um that says,
(13:29):
if a verdict was had based on false evidence in
civil proceedings, you can reopen that verdict. And we were
going to file something because in the DNA proceeding um
at Pistacco had said that Melissa's identification had never wavered,
and that was not true. There were all these Department
Family Services records that showed that she had wavered a lot.
(13:52):
She was afraid of all men. She had identified other
people as the bad man, and they never disclosed that,
and so we should reopen it. And so we were
gonna start this process. And at that time one of
the requirements that the city thought they needed was to
get a waiver of any compensation rights, any civil claims
that Rodney would raise against the city. Did it sort
(14:15):
of seem like if you sign this, coming home could
be more imminent, but like a quid pro quo kind
of thing. The belief was if he signed it, then
we would, yes, we would start a different process and
we would have another avenue that we did not think
would be available to us otherwise. Now, whether or not
that would be successful, we didn't know. You know, the
vast majority people who are exonerated don't collect any money.
(14:37):
Missouri statute only provides for people who are exonerated by
DNA evidence. So if you're exonerated but your exoneration did
not come from the DNA testing, two bad. So sad
you don't get any money from Missouri. So as part
of the discussion about doing something, the city wanted Rodney
to sign a waiver of any potential civil claim he
(14:58):
could ever have. How did you feel about that? I
also knew how hard it was going to be to
get him home. We had already lost every way you
could lose, and so we had to talk about that
is it worth it to keep a potential claim that
(15:20):
is largely unsuccessful or to potentially go home? But it
was awful. It was an awful conversation. Mm hm. I
would really love to know how Rodney describes it and
changing from me, which I told her, I can't try it.
I totally you know, we gotta fight it, you gotta
(15:44):
win it to make him out and think we can
win that first time drink to average at anything like that.
But for Rodney's daughter, k the decision is an easy one.
My dad sign it. Who cares if you can sue?
(16:05):
Who cares if you ever get a dime, just come
home sign it. And they said that it would happen
pretty quickly once he signed it, so he signed it.
April we're still waiting. May We're still waiting. He signed
the waiver. Why is this not happening? You can set
(16:32):
your clock by an inmates schedule and June one would
be no different until that is Rodney. Here's his name
called over the loudspeaker. That's never goodne I go up
to the un a guy, Yeah, you call me? Yeah,
(16:55):
drugged it once? A joc to you. Yeah, I think
you have drudged what you want. Go back to your room,
pit on your grave and bring your I d Gord.
Assuming he's about to get written up for some violation,
Rodney does what he's told. When he returns, he learns
(17:18):
exactly what is happening. Since you got call coming from
the governor. What did I do to him? He should not? Seriously,
you got call coming from the governor. Rodney is escorted
to the library, where there are almost two dozen officers,
(17:38):
sergeants and captains waiting for him. Terrifying, he's told to
sit again. He complies, Draw about that dime and draw
Another man in h Jetse. I known Jesse for years.
(18:00):
It's start to come. Joey, tell ju you will be
getting a call from the governor sometime between eleven and
one thins about what eleven now, eleven o'clock rose around,
No going twelve o'clock, one o'clock, not a time two o'clock.
(18:24):
Do nothing? Well, Rodney waits for his call. K is
about to get one of her own my phone rings
and it's Tricia. She said, well, I just called the
prison to talk to your dad because he never called
this morning. And when I asked them why my client
hadn't called, they told me he couldn't. I said, well, why,
(18:46):
what's wrong? You know, I'm freaking out, And she said
they said, he's sitting in a room waiting on a
call from the governor. And my mind just went blank.
I hadn't even thought put any thought into the fact
that June first was the governor's last day in office.
It's Governor Gryden's last day because he's resigning. He's embroiled
(19:09):
in multiple scandals that involve alleged sexual misconduct and political
campaign violations. Rather than face impeachment, he's quitting and today's
his last day and I said, Tricia, what does that mean?
She said, it can only mean one thing, but I
don't have any confirmation of it. Sean and I are
headed to jeff City. Jeff City is Jefferson City Correctional Center.
(19:35):
The next call k gets is from her sister Kelly,
and I'm like, are you on your way to come
get me? She's like, no, Um, I forgot to wait
till Tricia called and told us what's going on. And now, remember,
my sister is a very dominant one. She's a very
controlling one. Usually go by everything she says, and um,
(19:57):
She's like, I was waiting to hear back from Tricia.
I said, no, you're not. You're getting in the car
right now. You're gonna come get me, and we're going
to jep City. As Kay, Kelly, and Kelly's son drive
to the prison, Rodney sits there and waits to thirty
goes by three o'clock. Then the phone rings. It's for Rodney.
(20:27):
I shallow, boys, it's just Rodney blanking, not that. Yes
it is, Please hang on the governor of the stadium
and Zoo won't speak to you, okay, Rodney, yes, said,
(20:52):
they're just govern your briden. I wanted to call and
tell you that I'm communing your sentence, good time served,
and you'll be going home soon. I'm sitting out holding
the phone. Anything and saves. Thank you, he said, Rodney.
(21:21):
I want you spend the rest of your time trying
to be a better person. I want you to spend
the rest of your time trying to make your community
a better community. I want you to spend the rest
of your time trying to make your country a better country.
(21:45):
And God bless you. Because there, God bless you, and
the phone back. Jesse and I hugged each other. It
should We'll go out. We've got to the prison. I
(22:11):
walked into the lobby and the first thing I saw
was Shan O'Brien, and his smile lit up that entire lobby.
I've never seen a smile so big in my life,
and at that moment I knew it was real. I've
never seen Shawn so happy in my life, and it
was just it was crazy. I couldn't believe it. I
(22:35):
was calling everybody. You called me and I called you, Leah.
It's the governor to me, my friends, and the thanks.
He is coming home possibly today. I will try to
call you later. Fight a quick aside. I was at
crime Watch daily when I got case message. I ran
(22:56):
through the office playing it for everyone there. People literally cheered, okay,
so Rodney is going home and asks if he can
go gather his belongings from his cell and say goodbye
to some friends. Yeah, don't go back to house. Why
(23:17):
can't I go back there? Sure, you're being to stop.
You're not allowed back there. I can't go back. I'm
not in in met That was a moment of reckoning.
You're no longer an inmate, Jack was the moment while
(23:40):
we more confused than any kind in my life. I'm
not in mate? What am I? I felt like a
body in limbo. Limbo was in a very nice place
at this moment. Limbo looked mighty good to me. As
(24:02):
we walked out, it was chopping in window and she
oh said, what's your number for eight? Five ships three?
If you're just okay, that's you. And I walked out.
Kelly and Cake came running up to me. Hug tried
(24:28):
weel it was just like pandemonium. It was just amazing.
(24:56):
Could not even believe that it was happening. His lawyer
actually took a picture of me. My sister as he
was walking through, and you see two grown women standing there,
But what was it actually standing? There was a ten
(25:17):
year old and thirteen year old little girl who had
waited a lifetime for that moment. Twain mind Schefty six.
I walked up to prugeon doors. Sun was shining, the
guy was blue. No, I never noticed a difference till
(25:42):
that time. How the sun field inside the prugeon? How
differently field outside outside that pergeon? Pul right barely ten
(26:05):
steps past the prison threshold. A St. Louis news station
interviews Rodney. He addresses one person directly, Melissa, any what
you want? Finally, what you want? I'm out a Texas roadhouse,
(26:29):
eating a buttery World. I'm breaking up with my boyfriend.
And my phone rang and it was Lindsay, my attorney,
and she said, guess what, Rodney gets to go home?
And I think I squealed and I started crying right
then and there it was where I had went from
(26:50):
hating this man and fearing him for so many years.
It is not like that I love him, but he
had forgiven me and he was part of me. He
was part of my family, and it was just the
oddest reversal and one of the most happy things that
(27:10):
have happened to me in a long time. As they
drive off from Jefferson City Correctional Center, the concrete and
steel cage Rodney's called home for decades, they make their
way down No More Victims Road. Yes, that really is
the name of the road. Here's Kelly again. It was
(27:33):
so funny. I remember my son's did the back seat.
He's like, okay, is anyone else breaking the puck out?
But we just look at just like Grandpa's in the car.
He's in the car with us. Okay, Facebook, I got
somebody who wants to say hi to everybody. Just talk
(27:54):
I every warm back says something else me all your lives.
Roddy and his family first stopped to have a celebratory
(28:14):
dinner with Trisha and Sean. Then they stopped for a
second dinner. Ever since the first time that he thought
he may be getting home, you know, everybody asks these guys,
where do you want your first met when you come home?
He wanted to go to Steak and chick in Lee, Maine,
South Saint Louis, which is where he grew up, where
he hung out as a kid. He wanted us shape,
(28:35):
just like they made him a nineteen fifty. So we
went to Steak and chake and we had several family members.
They're waiting for us. We pulled up from the parking lot.
We got out and Dad loves to tell the story.
It's a lood betty girl by yake Al. I'm money
out of the lot, grabbed me rund the legs and
(29:00):
I love you, Grandpa. I had no idea of who
it was, but I loved you when you walked out free.
How much time had you spent in prison? Dirty ships years?
In ten dates on his way at the door, Missouri
(29:32):
Governor Eric Grayton's pardons five people and commutes the sentences
of four, including Rodney. Governor Grayton's commuted your sentence. Well,
he commuted my sickness to times served. You're still considered
guilty of the crisp absolutely and the eyes of the stadium, majour,
(29:56):
I'm guilty. Here's Shawn O'Brien again. I don't know if
you're aware of this, but the petition for clemency the
Governor Gryden's granted was written by Lindsay runolds On, behalf
of Melissa Davor. Did he granted Melissa's petition for clemency
(30:22):
um and and that was something we thought that no
governor should ignore. When you have the only surviving victim
of the crime saying a mistake has been made, Please
let him go free. Why did he only commute his
sentence Rodney sentence the time served and not fully pardner
exonerate him. You know what is Bizarres. The only people
(30:44):
who got pardoned by Governor Grten's were guilty political cronies.
So I can't tell you more than that. Here's Kelly again.
The States stupid. It's just how they could not pardon him,
exonerate him. He didn't do it, but yet they commuted
(31:09):
as sentence to some time served. What just means you
don't have to finish your sentence. You can go home,
but you're still guilty, so you still have this hanging
over you. Your seventy four He was seventy four when
he came home. There's no way anyone's going to give
you a job at your age, with your background, but
we're just going to kick you out, so bye, see you.
(31:32):
No kindness support if he was a man that didn't
have a family that believed in him and supported him
the way his does, he would be lost in this world.
Eric Grayden's is now running for the US Senate. I
reached out to him for comment and we did trade
some text messages and voicemails. He said he would try
(31:56):
to make time for a short interview or at the
very least provide a statement, but as of right now,
neither have happened. I have to say when I started
this project, I expected i'd learn more about Rodney, Melissa,
the investigation and the prosecution of this case, which I did.
(32:17):
But what I didn't expect was to learn so much
about the justice or injustice system in Missouri. From where
I sit, it seems for Rodney the injustice came in
three waves. The first was when the failed investigation led
to Melissa's idea of Rodney. He was arrested and eventually convicted.
(32:38):
The second was after the hair and other DNA came
back to not match Rodney and Melissa recanted, but the
Circuit Attorney's office and the Attorney General's office seemed to
actively fight to keep Rodney imprisoned. And the third wave
was when the courts denied his relief for reasons like
(32:59):
the recantake wasn't to be believed. Rodney wasn't on death row,
and in the case of the Missouri Supreme Court, they
just flat out refused to even hear it. We're going
to talk more about this in a later episode. So
(33:19):
Rodney went into prison a thirty eight year old man.
He came out at seventy four. Detective Joe Burgoon was
there from day one. What did you think that day
when Rodney was released from prison? Well, it's you know,
it's just you know, he's sure a lot of years,
said a lot of time in prison. I hate to
(33:42):
be the guided you know, I don't know, so, I mean,
I hate to be the guy that deprived the man
of his life. You know. So if it if it
was wrong, yeah, I can tell you though, we didn't
not try to get from us. Those children are earned
(34:02):
doing at all. If you win, you win. If you lose,
you lose as you do your job. It's not no,
it's not you know, not the real or anybody. You
get to live it yourself. There's a lot of cases
that there isn't any evidence. You can't make up evidence.
(34:25):
I shouldn't you know it was there was, there was
some things that were there that I understand what we
doing A little week later around while it was a
cigarette but nobody nobody knew about cigarette pus waiting eighty three.
But DNA and all that stuff. You know, they saved that.
(34:47):
We saved a lot of problems when we What did
you think when Melissa recanted? Did you believe her? I
think they got to hers who day and I've asked
some experience with the innocent projects. You know, whatever whatever
it takes to win, you win not, you know, to
(35:10):
the ethical and I respect him that there. You've got
a job at you, but do it the right one.
Don't make a thank us look like the bad guys
who are got to pay. As you know, we're parents
and every else we're got, We're not. We're not about there.
That's the kid's life up. Besides or I wouldn't I
(35:32):
think pickted or own keyboard. No. I interviewed Steve Weinberg.
He said that you carried a picture. You had a
picture of Melissa and Renee in your wallet. I did,
then I took it out. Now I still got 't enough.
Why did you take it out of your wallet? Wow?
(35:53):
You kind of turned on everybody. Everybody, everybody that tried
to help them. You know, uh, everybody tried to do
divisity good form. And you know she's in her own mind.
She she thinks that's been that we had the wrong guy.
Why does she come forward before? There seems to be
(36:19):
two camps when it comes to Joe Burgoon. One thinks
that he genuinely wanted to solve the case and brings
some much needed comfort to Melissa and her family, and
what was done was neither malicious nor nefarious. The other camp,
well thinks the polar opposite. Regardless, the outcome was the
(36:40):
same for Rodney Lincoln, what does time mean to you? Everything?
People don't realize how prighteous time is right now seventy eight,
I think it's strange getting kind of shot, So I'd
(37:01):
better enjoy what I got left. If I want to
go fish, you and I go fishing. If I just
want to go for a ride, I'll go for a ride.
And there's not a person inshull looking tell me no,
which we goage home? We went to a swimming pool.
(37:23):
I said, I'm going out to hide. I said, no,
you're not. You're gonna kill you some if I do
my faging. So as of today, Rodney's out, though he's
still considered guilty of the crimes. His attorneys are working
(37:44):
on a full exhoneration for him. Meanwhile, we still don't
know for sure who the real killer is. Melissa's uncle
Natt and aunt Lourie would sure like to know. Over
all these years, all these years, Nat watched all these
crime shows that were on TV, every kind of crime
(38:06):
show that was on any kind of channel. When he
wasn't home, he had me recording them on VHS. Then
he had me record the same shows over again on DVD.
He was looking for some criminal out there on some
show that had the same mo m O that the
(38:27):
guy that killed joe Ane had, but they didn't want
to you know, on the bed sheets. Could there'll be
something left on there or wipe it on her nightgown?
Do they have her nightgown yet? What happened to that
or her panties? I'd like to see everything that they
have from Joanne's house. Yet, every piece of evidence that
(38:48):
they have, lay it out there. Let's look at it.
Let's you know, everybody he can get, somebody like the FBI,
even if it's just local St. Louis or some somebody
high up that knows crime scenes and knows evidence. We
want to solve it. We would like for it to
be I'd be more happy to do anything. I mean,
I'd stand on my head in in eat banana and anything.
(39:12):
I mean, I do anything I could. I like to
solve this case. I know it's been a long time,
it's been since one What is the status of Joan
Tate's case? Is it open? Is it closed? Is it
a cold case? Well, at this moment, it's still you know,
there's evidence that there may be an individual that was executed,
(39:35):
I guess in Texas that could have possibly been a suspect.
But that's right now, you know, it's will be considered
an open case. Wow, Kim Gardner just said the case
is considered open, and she's talking about tommulin Cells who
was executed. As it turns out, Bill Clutter, that private
(39:57):
investigator who had investigated Tommulan Cell for years was able
to get a copy of his str DNA profile through
an open records request, but that profile couldn't be compared
to the hairs from the crime scene because those were
done with mitochondrial DNA testing and they are two totally
different forms of testing. With different data, So can Cell's
(40:21):
mitochondrial DNA be tested? Can his fingerprints be compared to
those found at the scene, or what about Steve Yancy's
DNA and fingerprints? Can whatever DNA and prints still exists
be entered into the national databases in case it's someone
altogether different, I asked Shan O'Brien. Melissa and Natt both wonder,
(40:46):
as do I, if there is anything that could still
be tested, physical evidence that still exists, or fingerprints that
could still be run against the fancy Tommulin sells prints
that are obviously in the system. There is a fingerprint
(41:06):
that's kind of smudgy. I don't know that it's good
enough to match to somebody um, and we have gone
through the physical evidence with a fine tooth comb. I
do know the person in the system who would listen
is Kim Gardner. I was there when Melissa met Kim,
(41:27):
and Kim was kind and compassionate and supportive. And I
think if Melissa went to Kim and said, please look
at the physical evidence in the case, and you know,
I test what you can. Having a prosecutor who is
reformed minded could very well be our best avenue for
(41:51):
getting access to that evidence. It's incredible to think that
Melissa and Rodney's story spans forty years and they haven't
seen each other since he was released from prison. That's
about to change. I made sure of it in the
(42:12):
spring of on an incredibly windy day. I mean it's
like gale force winds. It's very windy. Yes it is.
Seconds later, Melissa is at Rodney's door. Hi, you're so real,
(42:43):
Oh so good to see. Whatever happened? You look amazing,
I am amazing. I can't believe it. What do my soul?
(43:05):
There's the reason I held on in the pandemic. You
know that? Right? You wanted a few? Rodney offers Melissa beer.
She gladly accepts. I think they I haven't had a
beer in five years, so let's have a beer. Yeah.
I can't think of a better person to have a
(43:26):
beer with. Rod Today is a day of celebration, right, cheers, cheers.
Too many days and many days and nights, making up
for lost time and starting our own story, that's right,
(43:51):
the crew story. They hug for a long time, then
sit holding hands and you know what, like, this is
the first time I've been here in years, when I
haven't been sad or worried or afraid or guilty. You
(44:15):
set me free. The situation that came up between us
ships Jean thought both of us. But look where came
of it. One of the most precious bonds I have
(44:39):
in my life. I feel that's right. You got to
have a daughter to drive you crazy. Yeah, I have
a question of where does forgiveness come from? Where? Where?
How did you find that forgiveness? I don't think I
(45:08):
every really forgave anything because I could never see he
is being guilty of anything. I felt she was tricked
and nebul Lady used and she didn't do anything wrong. Okay, home,
(45:33):
listen this Higer girl. Kay then joins the reunion. Hi, Mama,
how are you so good to see you? Very excited
to be back here. And not only do I have
I have family here, I have you guys with my
(45:53):
family too. And I don't feel worthy sometimes, but I
love you fair much. You are more than worthy. You.
You put too much on yourself. You take too much
responsibility on yourself for things that were not your fault.
You know what I did do is I tried to
fight with you, and I said horrible things about your
(46:16):
letters about your dad. Like the things that I did do,
Like you were defending yourself and your life and everything
that you're playing for the entire your entire life. But
what I didn't know is that you knew more about
me than anyone I know. And that's what drives me crazy.
Everybody I talked to, I said, please tell Melissa to
call me. Yeah, please tell her to call me. I
(46:36):
know so much more about what happen back down than
what she will have a help. But I operated from
a very um emotionally immature place back then because when
us place and that used place in that ozation by
people who were adults. Yeah, I knew Betty right, they
(47:03):
didn't care because they had a gold that they were
And I just like the thought of you being in
there being annocent. I couldn't leave you there, and I
couldn't not say anything. I had no idea, as naiva
(47:23):
as I was that they wouldn't be on board. But
when you have the knowledge that you were wrong, that
you may have messed up someone's life, you say something
no matter what it costs you, because that's the right
thing to do. My grand mother, you know, I called
(47:45):
detective bringing back in two thousand three, two thousand four,
and I asked him what evidence did you ever have
against my dad? And he said, we didn't need any
we had Melissa, I said, well, do you realize that
when you told that child that she had to pick
the bad man, you were forcing her to make an identification.
She didn't have a choice. I never led a witness ever,
(48:08):
I said, all you said, I've never had a case
of mistake and I witness identification. I said, well you
did in this one. And you know what he said
to me, well, never before and never after, what that's okay?
This one it's okay. Then Melissa confesses something to Rodney,
you know. And then there was something that opened my
(48:30):
heart towards you. Ever before I truly realized you were innocent.
It was an Easter message and I found on YouTube.
That was something made me think about the fact that
Rodney was a human being and I really needed to
work on how I felt about him. That was the
first softening right there. You still believed he was guilty
of that. Yeah, you were just saying yeah, yeah. And
(48:52):
then it was really funny. Then I started learning about
the innocence prodect. Never before I talked to anybody and
I saw the statistics for people that were wrongfully convicted,
people that you know, Diane death Row, and I remember
thinking how many innocent people are there? And you did
cross my mind at one time, and my brain is like, stop,
(49:15):
stop thinking about that, because I knew if I had
to admit one thing you have to go down, that
I have to start admitting others. And I was already
I was scared because my whole foundation, my whole personality,
my whole life was built around being a survivor and
a victim and being upset and afraid of you. That
(49:37):
was my whole existence. But once I realized I couldn't
wrap you up in that anymore, I don't know. Thanks
to just begin to shift. So thank you for everything
that's good. Just thank you. Guys were like cold Love's
(49:59):
f oh girl, thank you for my friend understanding. Thank you.
I can't live long enough to make you proud. I'm
(50:21):
kind of a hell razor, is that all right? Yeah?
Welcome to the right next time on the Real Killer.
(50:42):
And one of the letters that you wrote, you said
you never babysat the girls. No, no, no, all there
in the hell. I finally talk with Steve Yancy. You know,
What's weird is that Melissa said that you did babysit them, Steve, Steve, Steve,
(51:06):
are you still there? Steve? A quick note Rodney Lincoln's
daughter k has started a Facebook discussion group around this podcast.
If you want to get into the conversation, search for
who killed Joe and Tate on Facebook and asked to
join the group. The Real Killer is a production of
(51:30):
a y R Media and I Heart Radio, hosted by
me Leah Rothman, Executive producers Leah Rothman and Eliza Rosen
for a y R Media. Written by me Leah Rothman,
Senior Associate producer Eric Newman, Editing and sound design by
Cameron Taggy, mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggi. Audio engineering
(51:54):
by Hey sus c Mario Studio engineering by Tom Weir
and Kelly McGrew. Legal counsel for a y R Media
Gianni Douglas, Executive producer for I Heart Radio Chandler Maze.
If you're enjoying The Real Killer, tell your friends about
it and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or
(52:14):
wherever you get your podcasts.
Who do you think killed Joe Ane Tate? I had
no idea. It could have been Tommy Lindsild. It could
have been the guy who's baby shutting food Joanne, Steve Yanstree.
(00:25):
It could have been show out together different Rodney Lincoln
doesn't know who murdered Joanne and hurt her daughters. All
he knows is the state of Missouri still treating him
as if he's the one who did it. They had
to conviction. They don't want to go. I'm Leah Rothman.
(00:59):
This is the real Killer Episode eight thirty six years
and ten days. What happened when I recanted was the
most baffling set of circumstances. Uh. I definitely did not
(01:22):
expect the pushback and a negative reaction that I got
from people in the system. I really thought that they
would be just as gung hole as I was and
get the paperwork rolling and get everything moving. You're not
supposed to have innocent people in prison, right, Melissa Daboors
(01:43):
recantation does not result in Rodney's release that year or
even the next. For Melissa, that reality is unbearable. The
depression that came after I came forward because the dust
settled It was by far, probably the second worst in
(02:05):
my life. Twice I studied the train the train tracks,
waiting for the train, and I was ready to jump.
A couple of times I swallowed too much medication and
I wake up throwing up and angry that I was
still there. I had been hurting and fighting and treading
water my whole life. I was exhausted. I didn't want
(02:30):
to be in the world anymore, because not only did
was he either because of me. He was gonna die
in there because of me. Melissa is struggling, and so
are Rodney and his family after they suffer a devastating loss.
Jesse Jesse was her name. Here's Rodney's daughter ka. On
(02:53):
June twel my dad's granddaughter, My daughter was murdered. Jesse
had just gotten off work and she took her boyfriend
somewhere where he shouldn't have been going. And as he
was waiting to meet with the person, somebody walked up
to the car and pulled a gun. She tried to
(03:15):
drive away. They fired two shots into the car. One
hit her and the arm went straight through her arm
into her heart. She drove two blocks, got her baby
and her boyfriend away from the scene and then she
collapsed and he called and they were able to transport
(03:37):
her to the hospital, but she died during surgery. Three
years old, left a two year old baby. So in
the middle of everything that's going on with your dad,
you lose your daughter and now you have you take
her child corner. He's so much like her, he has
(03:59):
her heart. Did they ever catch her killer? They actually
did catch the man that killed my daughter, and he
actually killed another young man three days before my daughter,
and three days before that committed an armed robbery. They
did catch him. My daughter's boyfriend identified him. He was indicted,
(04:24):
He went to trial, and at trial, the only eyewitness
for my daughter was her boyfriend who has a substance
abuse problem. And the defense attorney did a hell of
a lot better job than my dad's defense attorney did,
and the defense attorney just destroyed him. Prosecuting attorney didn't
(04:48):
really do anything to rebut that, and he was acquitted.
And that was just so so hard to hear. You know,
you fight the justice system all these years to get
(05:08):
somebody who's been wrongfully convicted free, and then you're you're
sitting on the other side of the aisle and you're
wanting them to do what you know they need to do,
and they let you down again. Yeah, I mean, it's
it's really hard to reconcile these two truths. How one
(05:34):
system can fail in so many ways. I feel so
many people in so many ways. Months later, a glimmer
of hope in Kimberly Gardner becomes the new St. Louis
Circuit Attorney. She's the first black woman elected to the office.
(05:56):
She ran on a justice reform platform, and one of
her first orders of business was to review potentially questionable
convictions from the past. Tell me about your conviction integrity
units and why you felt it was necessary to start
one when I took office. When we talk about the
(06:18):
integrity of the criminal justice system, UM, the ability for
prosecutors to correct wealth of convictions is key because things
can happen um so um day. One One of the
big pieces that I wanted to implement inside the office
is having a sent alone conviction integrity unit that is
separated from the day to day of the office, reports
(06:38):
directly to myself and we review these tough cases that
we all know. Good people can make bad mistakes, or
there may be some issues that prosecutors need to kind
of reconsider and we look at and if we look
at that case today, how will we try that case?
And maybe maybe there was mistakes of how the investigation
took place, the interrogation tactics of police, or was there
(07:01):
things that a prosecutor should have turned over to the
other side that would have had a different outcome. And
I think it's critical not only to that person who
there may be wrongfully convicted or we find, um something
that we need to correct, But at the same time,
it's a training tool for our prosecutors of what not
to do and what we need to work on better. So, um,
(07:23):
Rodney Lincoln's case, when you first learned of his case,
what did you think? Well, I mean, like everybody else,
I heard of it, you know, in the news. But um,
you know, I never had the luxury of really delving
into the case until it was time for me to
kind of look at this case and kind of say, hey,
there may be some issues. And then we had a
(07:44):
victim say that this individual did not commit this crime.
Once I had did our due diligence, Rodney Lincoln's case
was going to be the first UH Conviction Integrity Unit
case that our office had Originally, while Kim Gardner's conviction
and a gritty Unit begins looking at Rodney's case, his attorneys,
Tricia Rojo Bushnell and Shaun O'Brien file a one hundred
(08:07):
and twenty page writ of habeas corpus to the Missouri
Court of Appeals Western District. It's the next step after
Judge Green's sixteen denial in Cole County. Here's Tricia. So
we went to the Court of Appeals and we said, hey,
this was a bad decision down below, no evidence left
a convictim. And the Court of Appeals said, um that
(08:29):
it did not have the power two overturn a conviction
based on innocence unless the defendant was sentenced to death,
and Rodney Lincoln had not been sentenced to death. Forgive me,
but two life sentences equals death, right, Well that's you know,
Sean likes to say it's death on the installment plan, right,
(08:51):
So it's it is death, it's death in prison, but
it is it is death at the hands of the
state by time, right, but not I one overt act
and so but that's not what the court found. So
we asked the Supreme Court for review. We wanted them
to weigh in um, and they declined to review it.
And so that, um was was the end of that appeal.
(09:16):
I mean, the things that are very clear in my
mind was getting that opinion. And I was at some
you know, some meeting with a bunch of people in it,
and I just walked outside and sat on the curve
and just cried and cried and cried. And I just
remember thinking, Um, if we can't bring Rodney home, what
(09:42):
are we even doing? Should I even be a lawyer anymore? Sorry?
I didn't expect that. Oh, and I can, I mean,
I can imagine, like you're fighting so hard, and it
seems so obvious. It seems like they're fighting to keep
him in. They absolutely are, and he's not the only one.
(10:04):
They do it over and over and over. For the
last thirty years, the Attorney General Missouri has fought every
single innocence case. Why there's a great question, A great question, um.
And so it can feel, um, you know, like a
Sisyphus moment. Right, we keep rolling the rock up, um.
(10:27):
And it shouldn't be this hard. It may be someone
in Kim Gardner's office who's making things even harder. It's
a name you've heard many times before former Assistant Circuit
Attorney and Chief Warrant Officer Ed Pistaco. Here's Shawn O'Brien.
(10:48):
There was a hearing in front of the Missouri Board
of Probation and Parole because Rodney was eligible for parole
um and at this point Melissa is on board with
his release, the Circuit attorney Kim Gardners on board with
his release, and without any notice to anybody to Kim
to us, Ed Pistaco goes down to the Missouri Board
(11:11):
of Probation and Parole and makes a presentation that will
never know what he said because those files are closed
by law. We cannot get into those files. Kim can't.
We can't, but I think I know what he said.
You know, it did not take the Parole Board very
(11:33):
long at all to deny relief. And now that would
have been Rodney's best chance for release, and I'm sure
Ed Pistaco went down there to torpedo it. I asked
our gon attorney Kim Gardner about this parole hearing. I
can confirm that I can confirm that Epistocle represented the
office with no authority at the time. I had just
(11:56):
taken office, so that happened. I think into was in
seventeen and um with no authority to represent the office.
And at that time I also requested what was said
in that parole hearing and was not even access. So
that is disturbing to me that even the Circuit Attorney,
(12:17):
who the person was representing the sentiments of office that
they're actually working for the Parole Board, would not give
me access to at Pistaco's statements and that hearing. It
defies logic, right, I mean, how can Kim Gardner, the
elected circuit attorney, be denied access to what ed Pistaco,
(12:38):
someone who went there representing her office said in that
parole hearing. We're gonna talk a lot more about Kim Gardner.
Her reform policies are being met with intense and unprecedented opposition,
which many say, at its core is racist. By the way,
I still haven't heard from at Pistaco. Now it's midam
(13:06):
and Rodney won't be eligible for parole for three more years.
But maybe Kim Gardner can help in another way. Here's
Tricia again. We go and meet with her to talk
about some ideas of some filings that we think she
could do, and essentially there is a rule um that says,
(13:29):
if a verdict was had based on false evidence in
civil proceedings, you can reopen that verdict. And we were
going to file something because in the DNA proceeding um
at Pistacco had said that Melissa's identification had never wavered,
and that was not true. There were all these Department
Family Services records that showed that she had wavered a lot.
(13:52):
She was afraid of all men. She had identified other
people as the bad man, and they never disclosed that,
and so we should reopen it. And so we were
gonna start this process. And at that time one of
the requirements that the city thought they needed was to
get a waiver of any compensation rights, any civil claims
that Rodney would raise against the city. Did it sort
(14:15):
of seem like if you sign this, coming home could
be more imminent, but like a quid pro quo kind
of thing. The belief was if he signed it, then
we would, yes, we would start a different process and
we would have another avenue that we did not think
would be available to us otherwise. Now, whether or not
that would be successful, we didn't know. You know, the
vast majority people who are exonerated don't collect any money.
(14:37):
Missouri statute only provides for people who are exonerated by
DNA evidence. So if you're exonerated but your exoneration did
not come from the DNA testing, two bad. So sad
you don't get any money from Missouri. So as part
of the discussion about doing something, the city wanted Rodney
to sign a waiver of any potential civil claim he
(14:58):
could ever have. How did you feel about that? I
also knew how hard it was going to be to
get him home. We had already lost every way you
could lose, and so we had to talk about that
is it worth it to keep a potential claim that
(15:20):
is largely unsuccessful or to potentially go home? But it
was awful. It was an awful conversation. Mm hm. I
would really love to know how Rodney describes it and
changing from me, which I told her, I can't try it.
I totally you know, we gotta fight it, you gotta
(15:44):
win it to make him out and think we can
win that first time drink to average at anything like that.
But for Rodney's daughter, k the decision is an easy one.
My dad sign it. Who cares if you can sue?
(16:05):
Who cares if you ever get a dime, just come
home sign it. And they said that it would happen
pretty quickly once he signed it, so he signed it.
April we're still waiting. May We're still waiting. He signed
the waiver. Why is this not happening? You can set
(16:32):
your clock by an inmates schedule and June one would
be no different until that is Rodney. Here's his name
called over the loudspeaker. That's never goodne I go up
to the un a guy, Yeah, you call me? Yeah,
(16:55):
drugged it once? A joc to you. Yeah, I think
you have drudged what you want. Go back to your room,
pit on your grave and bring your I d Gord.
Assuming he's about to get written up for some violation,
Rodney does what he's told. When he returns, he learns
(17:18):
exactly what is happening. Since you got call coming from
the governor. What did I do to him? He should not? Seriously,
you got call coming from the governor. Rodney is escorted
to the library, where there are almost two dozen officers,
(17:38):
sergeants and captains waiting for him. Terrifying, he's told to
sit again. He complies, Draw about that dime and draw
Another man in h Jetse. I known Jesse for years.
(18:00):
It's start to come. Joey, tell ju you will be
getting a call from the governor sometime between eleven and
one thins about what eleven now, eleven o'clock rose around,
No going twelve o'clock, one o'clock, not a time two o'clock.
(18:24):
Do nothing? Well, Rodney waits for his call. K is
about to get one of her own my phone rings
and it's Tricia. She said, well, I just called the
prison to talk to your dad because he never called
this morning. And when I asked them why my client
hadn't called, they told me he couldn't. I said, well, why,
(18:46):
what's wrong? You know, I'm freaking out, And she said
they said, he's sitting in a room waiting on a
call from the governor. And my mind just went blank.
I hadn't even thought put any thought into the fact
that June first was the governor's last day in office.
It's Governor Gryden's last day because he's resigning. He's embroiled
(19:09):
in multiple scandals that involve alleged sexual misconduct and political
campaign violations. Rather than face impeachment, he's quitting and today's
his last day and I said, Tricia, what does that mean?
She said, it can only mean one thing, but I
don't have any confirmation of it. Sean and I are
headed to jeff City. Jeff City is Jefferson City Correctional Center.
(19:35):
The next call k gets is from her sister Kelly,
and I'm like, are you on your way to come
get me? She's like, no, Um, I forgot to wait
till Tricia called and told us what's going on. And now, remember,
my sister is a very dominant one. She's a very
controlling one. Usually go by everything she says, and um,
(19:57):
She's like, I was waiting to hear back from Tricia.
I said, no, you're not. You're getting in the car
right now. You're gonna come get me, and we're going
to jep City. As Kay, Kelly, and Kelly's son drive
to the prison, Rodney sits there and waits to thirty
goes by three o'clock. Then the phone rings. It's for Rodney.
(20:27):
I shallow, boys, it's just Rodney blanking, not that. Yes
it is, Please hang on the governor of the stadium
and Zoo won't speak to you, okay, Rodney, yes, said,
(20:52):
they're just govern your briden. I wanted to call and
tell you that I'm communing your sentence, good time served,
and you'll be going home soon. I'm sitting out holding
the phone. Anything and saves. Thank you, he said, Rodney.
(21:21):
I want you spend the rest of your time trying
to be a better person. I want you to spend
the rest of your time trying to make your community
a better community. I want you to spend the rest
of your time trying to make your country a better country.
(21:45):
And God bless you. Because there, God bless you, and
the phone back. Jesse and I hugged each other. It
should We'll go out. We've got to the prison. I
(22:11):
walked into the lobby and the first thing I saw
was Shan O'Brien, and his smile lit up that entire lobby.
I've never seen a smile so big in my life,
and at that moment I knew it was real. I've
never seen Shawn so happy in my life, and it
was just it was crazy. I couldn't believe it. I
(22:35):
was calling everybody. You called me and I called you, Leah.
It's the governor to me, my friends, and the thanks.
He is coming home possibly today. I will try to
call you later. Fight a quick aside. I was at
crime Watch daily when I got case message. I ran
(22:56):
through the office playing it for everyone there. People literally cheered, okay,
so Rodney is going home and asks if he can
go gather his belongings from his cell and say goodbye
to some friends. Yeah, don't go back to house. Why
(23:17):
can't I go back there? Sure, you're being to stop.
You're not allowed back there. I can't go back. I'm
not in in met That was a moment of reckoning.
You're no longer an inmate, Jack was the moment while
(23:40):
we more confused than any kind in my life. I'm
not in mate? What am I? I felt like a
body in limbo. Limbo was in a very nice place
at this moment. Limbo looked mighty good to me. As
(24:02):
we walked out, it was chopping in window and she
oh said, what's your number for eight? Five ships three?
If you're just okay, that's you. And I walked out.
Kelly and Cake came running up to me. Hug tried
(24:28):
weel it was just like pandemonium. It was just amazing.
(24:56):
Could not even believe that it was happening. His lawyer
actually took a picture of me. My sister as he
was walking through, and you see two grown women standing there,
But what was it actually standing? There was a ten
(25:17):
year old and thirteen year old little girl who had
waited a lifetime for that moment. Twain mind Schefty six.
I walked up to prugeon doors. Sun was shining, the
guy was blue. No, I never noticed a difference till
(25:42):
that time. How the sun field inside the prugeon? How
differently field outside outside that pergeon? Pul right barely ten
(26:05):
steps past the prison threshold. A St. Louis news station
interviews Rodney. He addresses one person directly, Melissa, any what
you want? Finally, what you want? I'm out a Texas roadhouse,
(26:29):
eating a buttery World. I'm breaking up with my boyfriend.
And my phone rang and it was Lindsay, my attorney,
and she said, guess what, Rodney gets to go home?
And I think I squealed and I started crying right
then and there it was where I had went from
(26:50):
hating this man and fearing him for so many years.
It is not like that I love him, but he
had forgiven me and he was part of me. He
was part of my family, and it was just the
oddest reversal and one of the most happy things that
(27:10):
have happened to me in a long time. As they
drive off from Jefferson City Correctional Center, the concrete and
steel cage Rodney's called home for decades, they make their
way down No More Victims Road. Yes, that really is
the name of the road. Here's Kelly again. It was
(27:33):
so funny. I remember my son's did the back seat.
He's like, okay, is anyone else breaking the puck out?
But we just look at just like Grandpa's in the car.
He's in the car with us. Okay, Facebook, I got
somebody who wants to say hi to everybody. Just talk
(27:54):
I every warm back says something else me all your lives.
Roddy and his family first stopped to have a celebratory
(28:14):
dinner with Trisha and Sean. Then they stopped for a
second dinner. Ever since the first time that he thought
he may be getting home, you know, everybody asks these guys,
where do you want your first met when you come home?
He wanted to go to Steak and chick in Lee, Maine,
South Saint Louis, which is where he grew up, where
he hung out as a kid. He wanted us shape,
(28:35):
just like they made him a nineteen fifty. So we
went to Steak and chake and we had several family members.
They're waiting for us. We pulled up from the parking lot.
We got out and Dad loves to tell the story.
It's a lood betty girl by yake Al. I'm money
out of the lot, grabbed me rund the legs and
(29:00):
I love you, Grandpa. I had no idea of who
it was, but I loved you when you walked out free.
How much time had you spent in prison? Dirty ships years?
In ten dates on his way at the door, Missouri
(29:32):
Governor Eric Grayton's pardons five people and commutes the sentences
of four, including Rodney. Governor Grayton's commuted your sentence. Well,
he commuted my sickness to times served. You're still considered
guilty of the crisp absolutely and the eyes of the stadium, majour,
(29:56):
I'm guilty. Here's Shawn O'Brien again. I don't know if
you're aware of this, but the petition for clemency the
Governor Gryden's granted was written by Lindsay runolds On, behalf
of Melissa Davor. Did he granted Melissa's petition for clemency
(30:22):
um and and that was something we thought that no
governor should ignore. When you have the only surviving victim
of the crime saying a mistake has been made, Please
let him go free. Why did he only commute his
sentence Rodney sentence the time served and not fully pardner
exonerate him. You know what is Bizarres. The only people
(30:44):
who got pardoned by Governor Grten's were guilty political cronies.
So I can't tell you more than that. Here's Kelly again.
The States stupid. It's just how they could not pardon him,
exonerate him. He didn't do it, but yet they commuted
(31:09):
as sentence to some time served. What just means you
don't have to finish your sentence. You can go home,
but you're still guilty, so you still have this hanging
over you. Your seventy four He was seventy four when
he came home. There's no way anyone's going to give
you a job at your age, with your background, but
we're just going to kick you out, so bye, see you.
(31:32):
No kindness support if he was a man that didn't
have a family that believed in him and supported him
the way his does, he would be lost in this world.
Eric Grayden's is now running for the US Senate. I
reached out to him for comment and we did trade
some text messages and voicemails. He said he would try
(31:56):
to make time for a short interview or at the
very least provide a statement, but as of right now,
neither have happened. I have to say when I started
this project, I expected i'd learn more about Rodney, Melissa,
the investigation and the prosecution of this case, which I did.
(32:17):
But what I didn't expect was to learn so much
about the justice or injustice system in Missouri. From where
I sit, it seems for Rodney the injustice came in
three waves. The first was when the failed investigation led
to Melissa's idea of Rodney. He was arrested and eventually convicted.
(32:38):
The second was after the hair and other DNA came
back to not match Rodney and Melissa recanted, but the
Circuit Attorney's office and the Attorney General's office seemed to
actively fight to keep Rodney imprisoned. And the third wave
was when the courts denied his relief for reasons like
(32:59):
the recantake wasn't to be believed. Rodney wasn't on death row,
and in the case of the Missouri Supreme Court, they
just flat out refused to even hear it. We're going
to talk more about this in a later episode. So
(33:19):
Rodney went into prison a thirty eight year old man.
He came out at seventy four. Detective Joe Burgoon was
there from day one. What did you think that day
when Rodney was released from prison? Well, it's you know,
it's just you know, he's sure a lot of years,
said a lot of time in prison. I hate to
(33:42):
be the guided you know, I don't know, so, I mean,
I hate to be the guy that deprived the man
of his life. You know. So if it if it
was wrong, yeah, I can tell you though, we didn't
not try to get from us. Those children are earned
(34:02):
doing at all. If you win, you win. If you lose,
you lose as you do your job. It's not no,
it's not you know, not the real or anybody. You
get to live it yourself. There's a lot of cases
that there isn't any evidence. You can't make up evidence.
(34:25):
I shouldn't you know it was there was, there was
some things that were there that I understand what we
doing A little week later around while it was a
cigarette but nobody nobody knew about cigarette pus waiting eighty three.
But DNA and all that stuff. You know, they saved that.
(34:47):
We saved a lot of problems when we What did
you think when Melissa recanted? Did you believe her? I
think they got to hers who day and I've asked
some experience with the innocent projects. You know, whatever whatever
it takes to win, you win not, you know, to
(35:10):
the ethical and I respect him that there. You've got
a job at you, but do it the right one.
Don't make a thank us look like the bad guys
who are got to pay. As you know, we're parents
and every else we're got, We're not. We're not about there.
That's the kid's life up. Besides or I wouldn't I
(35:32):
think pickted or own keyboard. No. I interviewed Steve Weinberg.
He said that you carried a picture. You had a
picture of Melissa and Renee in your wallet. I did,
then I took it out. Now I still got 't enough.
Why did you take it out of your wallet? Wow?
(35:53):
You kind of turned on everybody. Everybody, everybody that tried
to help them. You know, uh, everybody tried to do
divisity good form. And you know she's in her own mind.
She she thinks that's been that we had the wrong guy.
Why does she come forward before? There seems to be
(36:19):
two camps when it comes to Joe Burgoon. One thinks
that he genuinely wanted to solve the case and brings
some much needed comfort to Melissa and her family, and
what was done was neither malicious nor nefarious. The other camp,
well thinks the polar opposite. Regardless, the outcome was the
(36:40):
same for Rodney Lincoln, what does time mean to you? Everything?
People don't realize how prighteous time is right now seventy eight,
I think it's strange getting kind of shot, So I'd
(37:01):
better enjoy what I got left. If I want to
go fish, you and I go fishing. If I just
want to go for a ride, I'll go for a ride.
And there's not a person inshull looking tell me no,
which we goage home? We went to a swimming pool.
(37:23):
I said, I'm going out to hide. I said, no,
you're not. You're gonna kill you some if I do
my faging. So as of today, Rodney's out, though he's
still considered guilty of the crimes. His attorneys are working
(37:44):
on a full exhoneration for him. Meanwhile, we still don't
know for sure who the real killer is. Melissa's uncle
Natt and aunt Lourie would sure like to know. Over
all these years, all these years, Nat watched all these
crime shows that were on TV, every kind of crime
(38:06):
show that was on any kind of channel. When he
wasn't home, he had me recording them on VHS. Then
he had me record the same shows over again on DVD.
He was looking for some criminal out there on some
show that had the same mo m O that the
(38:27):
guy that killed joe Ane had, but they didn't want
to you know, on the bed sheets. Could there'll be
something left on there or wipe it on her nightgown?
Do they have her nightgown yet? What happened to that
or her panties? I'd like to see everything that they
have from Joanne's house. Yet, every piece of evidence that
(38:48):
they have, lay it out there. Let's look at it.
Let's you know, everybody he can get, somebody like the FBI,
even if it's just local St. Louis or some somebody
high up that knows crime scenes and knows evidence. We
want to solve it. We would like for it to
be I'd be more happy to do anything. I mean,
I'd stand on my head in in eat banana and anything.
(39:12):
I mean, I do anything I could. I like to
solve this case. I know it's been a long time,
it's been since one What is the status of Joan
Tate's case? Is it open? Is it closed? Is it
a cold case? Well, at this moment, it's still you know,
there's evidence that there may be an individual that was executed,
(39:35):
I guess in Texas that could have possibly been a suspect.
But that's right now, you know, it's will be considered
an open case. Wow, Kim Gardner just said the case
is considered open, and she's talking about tommulin Cells who
was executed. As it turns out, Bill Clutter, that private
(39:57):
investigator who had investigated Tommulan Cell for years was able
to get a copy of his str DNA profile through
an open records request, but that profile couldn't be compared
to the hairs from the crime scene because those were
done with mitochondrial DNA testing and they are two totally
different forms of testing. With different data, So can Cell's
(40:21):
mitochondrial DNA be tested? Can his fingerprints be compared to
those found at the scene, or what about Steve Yancy's
DNA and fingerprints? Can whatever DNA and prints still exists
be entered into the national databases in case it's someone
altogether different, I asked Shan O'Brien. Melissa and Natt both wonder,
(40:46):
as do I, if there is anything that could still
be tested, physical evidence that still exists, or fingerprints that
could still be run against the fancy Tommulin sells prints
that are obviously in the system. There is a fingerprint
(41:06):
that's kind of smudgy. I don't know that it's good
enough to match to somebody um, and we have gone
through the physical evidence with a fine tooth comb. I
do know the person in the system who would listen
is Kim Gardner. I was there when Melissa met Kim,
(41:27):
and Kim was kind and compassionate and supportive. And I
think if Melissa went to Kim and said, please look
at the physical evidence in the case, and you know,
I test what you can. Having a prosecutor who is
reformed minded could very well be our best avenue for
(41:51):
getting access to that evidence. It's incredible to think that
Melissa and Rodney's story spans forty years and they haven't
seen each other since he was released from prison. That's
about to change. I made sure of it in the
(42:12):
spring of on an incredibly windy day. I mean it's
like gale force winds. It's very windy. Yes it is.
Seconds later, Melissa is at Rodney's door. Hi, you're so real,
(42:43):
Oh so good to see. Whatever happened? You look amazing,
I am amazing. I can't believe it. What do my soul?
(43:05):
There's the reason I held on in the pandemic. You
know that? Right? You wanted a few? Rodney offers Melissa beer.
She gladly accepts. I think they I haven't had a
beer in five years, so let's have a beer. Yeah.
I can't think of a better person to have a
(43:26):
beer with. Rod Today is a day of celebration, right, cheers, cheers.
Too many days and many days and nights, making up
for lost time and starting our own story, that's right,
(43:51):
the crew story. They hug for a long time, then
sit holding hands and you know what, like, this is
the first time I've been here in years, when I
haven't been sad or worried or afraid or guilty. You
(44:15):
set me free. The situation that came up between us
ships Jean thought both of us. But look where came
of it. One of the most precious bonds I have
(44:39):
in my life. I feel that's right. You got to
have a daughter to drive you crazy. Yeah, I have
a question of where does forgiveness come from? Where? Where?
How did you find that forgiveness? I don't think I
(45:08):
every really forgave anything because I could never see he
is being guilty of anything. I felt she was tricked
and nebul Lady used and she didn't do anything wrong. Okay, home,
(45:33):
listen this Higer girl. Kay then joins the reunion. Hi, Mama,
how are you so good to see you? Very excited
to be back here. And not only do I have
I have family here, I have you guys with my
(45:53):
family too. And I don't feel worthy sometimes, but I
love you fair much. You are more than worthy. You.
You put too much on yourself. You take too much
responsibility on yourself for things that were not your fault.
You know what I did do is I tried to
fight with you, and I said horrible things about your
(46:16):
letters about your dad. Like the things that I did do,
Like you were defending yourself and your life and everything
that you're playing for the entire your entire life. But
what I didn't know is that you knew more about
me than anyone I know. And that's what drives me crazy.
Everybody I talked to, I said, please tell Melissa to
call me. Yeah, please tell her to call me. I
(46:36):
know so much more about what happen back down than
what she will have a help. But I operated from
a very um emotionally immature place back then because when
us place and that used place in that ozation by
people who were adults. Yeah, I knew Betty right, they
(47:03):
didn't care because they had a gold that they were
And I just like the thought of you being in
there being annocent. I couldn't leave you there, and I
couldn't not say anything. I had no idea, as naiva
(47:23):
as I was that they wouldn't be on board. But
when you have the knowledge that you were wrong, that
you may have messed up someone's life, you say something
no matter what it costs you, because that's the right
thing to do. My grand mother, you know, I called
(47:45):
detective bringing back in two thousand three, two thousand four,
and I asked him what evidence did you ever have
against my dad? And he said, we didn't need any
we had Melissa, I said, well, do you realize that
when you told that child that she had to pick
the bad man, you were forcing her to make an identification.
She didn't have a choice. I never led a witness ever,
(48:08):
I said, all you said, I've never had a case
of mistake and I witness identification. I said, well you
did in this one. And you know what he said
to me, well, never before and never after, what that's okay?
This one it's okay. Then Melissa confesses something to Rodney,
you know. And then there was something that opened my
(48:30):
heart towards you. Ever before I truly realized you were innocent.
It was an Easter message and I found on YouTube.
That was something made me think about the fact that
Rodney was a human being and I really needed to
work on how I felt about him. That was the
first softening right there. You still believed he was guilty
of that. Yeah, you were just saying yeah, yeah. And
(48:52):
then it was really funny. Then I started learning about
the innocence prodect. Never before I talked to anybody and
I saw the statistics for people that were wrongfully convicted,
people that you know, Diane death Row, and I remember
thinking how many innocent people are there? And you did
cross my mind at one time, and my brain is like, stop,
(49:15):
stop thinking about that, because I knew if I had
to admit one thing you have to go down, that
I have to start admitting others. And I was already
I was scared because my whole foundation, my whole personality,
my whole life was built around being a survivor and
a victim and being upset and afraid of you. That
(49:37):
was my whole existence. But once I realized I couldn't
wrap you up in that anymore, I don't know. Thanks
to just begin to shift. So thank you for everything
that's good. Just thank you. Guys were like cold Love's
(49:59):
f oh girl, thank you for my friend understanding. Thank you.
I can't live long enough to make you proud. I'm
(50:21):
kind of a hell razor, is that all right? Yeah?
Welcome to the right next time on the Real Killer.
(50:42):
And one of the letters that you wrote, you said
you never babysat the girls. No, no, no, all there
in the hell. I finally talk with Steve Yancy. You know,
What's weird is that Melissa said that you did babysit them, Steve, Steve, Steve,
(51:06):
are you still there? Steve? A quick note Rodney Lincoln's
daughter k has started a Facebook discussion group around this podcast.
If you want to get into the conversation, search for
who killed Joe and Tate on Facebook and asked to
join the group. The Real Killer is a production of
(51:30):
a y R Media and I Heart Radio, hosted by
me Leah Rothman, Executive producers Leah Rothman and Eliza Rosen
for a y R Media. Written by me Leah Rothman,
Senior Associate producer Eric Newman, Editing and sound design by
Cameron Taggy, mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggi. Audio engineering
(51:54):
by Hey sus c Mario Studio engineering by Tom Weir
and Kelly McGrew. Legal counsel for a y R Media
Gianni Douglas, Executive producer for I Heart Radio Chandler Maze.
If you're enjoying The Real Killer, tell your friends about
it and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or
(52:14):
wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Leah Rothman
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.