March 2, 2023 • 46 mins
Keith LaMar, the alleged leader of the so- called Death Squad, goes on trial. Prosecutors believe they have an open and shut case. Keith’s attorneys say they don’t. Will Keith get a fair trial or is his fate predetermined?
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
A warning. This episode contains language and depictions of violence
that may be disturbing to some listeners. The door was
open for me to become an informant. Months before Keith
Lamar is indicted for killing five men during the Lucasville Uprising,
he says he's given an opportunity to work with investigators,
(00:24):
an opportunity he has no interest in taking. I told him,
get the fuck out of my face, the investigator saying
to me, you could you know, like, are you insane?
This is a sweetheart deal. I s a sweetheart deals
from innocent. If you're gonna sept this deal, I'm here
to tell you that we're going to put your black
(00:45):
ass on death. Bro I want a trial, You want
to trial, We're gonna give you a trial. I'm Leah Rothman.
This is the Real Killer. Episode four, Duck your Head
(01:07):
and Full Speed Ahead. In nineteen ninety four, Keith is
charged with nine counts of aggravated murder for the deaths
of Darryl Dipina, Albert Steano, William Savetti, Bruce Vitali, and
(01:27):
Dennis Weaver. His attorneys will have around nine months to
prepare for trial. You believed in Keith's innocence. Yes, yes,
I still do. That's Hermann Carson, one of Keith's nineteen
ninety five trial lawyers. I wonder what Bob Toy, Keith's
other trial attorney, thinks, or if he ever asked Keith
(01:50):
if he did it. You know, when I deal with
a criminal case, I look at the evidence that the
prosecutor has. Can they prove this case beyond a reason?
Will down? I don't ask my clients are by guilty.
I quite frankly don't give a shit. I get why Bob,
as a defense attorney, didn't ask, but I'm not Bob.
(02:11):
So I'm just going to ask you, did you kill
Dennis Weaver? No? I did? Did you kill Darryl Dpina? No?
I did did you kill Albert Steano? No? I did?
Did you kill William Sabetti? No? Did you kill Bruce Vatali? No?
I can imagine what you're thinking. I shouldn't have to
(02:32):
answer that. I mean, I don't think it's unfair to
be asked these questions. Of course, it's fair if we're
trying to lab It's the only way to lap the
US to ask these hard questions. I've dildn't have spend
a months up from day one. Keith answers my questions.
Now I'm going to answer one of his. When I
visited Keith, he asked me to look into the possibility
(02:53):
the men he's accused of killing were not actually snitches
but child molesters and rapists, because if they were, then
what maybe that would point to a different motive for
why they were murdered, or maybe the snitches label was
simply concocted so they would appear more sympathetic to jurors.
And look, there's no way for me to really find
(03:14):
out if they were snitches or not. But I was
able to find their criminal records. So a couple of
them had kidnapping and rape charges, but for the most
part they were like murder, felonious assault, arson, robbery. There
(03:37):
was one one guy who hold on my look, there
was one guy who was at Lucasville for kidnapping and rape.
That was in nineteen eighty three, and he had been
charged with raping a twelve year old and a nineteen
year old back in nineteen seventy seven. I'm not sure
(03:58):
if he was convicted. I just saw that he was charged.
So what do you make of that, well, no less speculation.
You know. The thing that always struck me about the
narrative is that, you know, the state said today were stitches,
and everybody just ran with that, you know, because if they,
(04:19):
if their actual record was introduced, maybe it were prejudice
to jury against you know, caring or having sympathy for
them that they had lost their lives in this real
hogrific way. I just don't want to accept without question
anything the state has to say in terms of narrative
(04:39):
and framing the situation. You know, there's someone else who
might be able to shed some light on this. Former
Lucasville Warden, Arthur Tate. Do you know if the guys,
the inmates who were killed, were they snitches? I don't know. Savetti,
(05:03):
I would say absolutely not now, And this is what
I was told about Savetti. And I don't know if
this is true. I don't know if you've heard a
story similar or contrary or whatever, but Savetti, I mean
I knew him personally. He's an older gentleman. He walked
with a walker, and anytime that he saw me in
the hallway, he would chase me down and he had
(05:24):
something to bit to me about The information that I
got was that when the offenders that got the keys,
they were African American guys, and they started keying the
console and his door popped open, and he came out
and saw them at the console and made the comment
(05:46):
what are you in guys using the in word what
are you doing? And they went right down killed him.
That's the word I got. That's how he got killed.
I don't believe he was a snitch. But there were
a couple inmates that were involved in the snitch game
that were killed. I can't recall their names. So maybe
(06:10):
William Savetti wasn't a snitch, but maybe some of the
others were. I don't think we'll ever know. I'm not
even sure it matters. It doesn't change anything for Keith.
In the months leading up to Keith's trial, one of
Bob and Hermann's first orders of business is to get
it moved from Sciota County, where Lucasville is located, to
(06:32):
somewhere less potentially prejudicial. Here's Bob. We asked for a
change of venue and it was granted, although granting it
by moving into the next county where most of the
people work and Lucasville are associated with it didn't really
help much. The trial will be held thirty eight miles
(06:54):
from Lucasville in Ironton, Ohio. That's in Lawrence County, the
most southern county in the state of Ohio. The demographics
there are similar to Sciota County, well over ninety percent white.
Presiding over the case will be Judge Fred Crowe, the
third Judge. Crowe was fifty years old at the time
of the trial. Today he's seventy seven and retired. I
(07:17):
talked with him over zoom. Did you in your years
of being a judge have a certain reputation? Yeah, I
kind of did. I actually had a song about hanging
Judge Crew. That was the song, and that was a
reputation along most of the attorneys I knew. I was
a strong advocate for law enforcement. Hanging Judge Crowe like
(07:42):
hanging people or what would do? It was a colony
dive song A friend of mine Root. Judge Fred Crowe
comes from a long line of law and order. His
grandfather was a judge, his dad an FBI agent. Keith's attorney,
Bob Toy knows Judge Crowe well. He's argued many cases
in front of him over the years he's something else.
(08:05):
He was definitely pro prosecution. There's no question about it.
It's very simple in Judge Crowe's court. When you get convicted,
you're going to get the max from him, and you're
going to get the death penalty. That's just like a given.
So if the prosecutor gives you an offer and you
have a bad case, you might want to take it.
(08:27):
The prosecutors who will be presenting the states case are
Seth Tiger and Bill Anderson. They were aggressive prosecutors. They
come from Hamilton County. It's a tough county to commit
a crime in. They were very aggressive. They were smart.
So the teams are in place, the venue is set,
(08:48):
but before they can get to jury selection, there are
the pre trial motions, lots of them, mostly surrounding discovery,
what evidence the prosecution has and what the defense wants
them to hand over. This is going to be a
real sticking point in Keith's case. Here's Hermann, Well, we
were asking for what's called Brady material, anything that's favorable
(09:11):
or exculpatory to the defendant they're required to turn over
to the defense, and said anything basically contradicted the state's theory.
Of the case, and of course they weren't going to
give that to us. And just to be clear, did
you have access to the Ohio State Highway Patrol's database
of interviews? No? Did the prosecution. Oh yeah, they had
(09:34):
everything integrated. So there presumably are thousands and thousands and
thousands of pages of interviews transcripts that you were never given. Correct.
In episode two, I talked with Kenneth Marshall from the
Ohio State Highway Patrol. He estimated the number of interviews
(09:55):
they conducted was around twelve hundred, which is a lot
of interviews. I actually got my hands on the index,
and while yes, they were around twelve thirteen hundred interviews conducted,
what's more surprising to me is how many times people
were interviewed. Some are interviewed once, some twice, some are
interviewed five, six, eight times. There's one guy who's interviewed
(10:18):
eleven times and another who's interviewed twelve times. How did
that strike you that these men were interviewed so many times. Well,
I've seen ones where they have had multiple interviews, nothing
like this scope. But you know, this whole situation is
about as non standard as it comes the scope of
the area where things happen, the number of individuals that
(10:42):
could be directly or indirectly or just peripherally involved. You know,
there's just nothing comparable to this case in my experience.
Here's Bob, this was not a normal case. This was
the case where all the politicians were involved. This was
the primary case in the statable while and it rose
(11:05):
to that level because of the unfortunate death of mister Vallanahan,
who was the guard there that had nothing to do
with keys case. After the uprising, around fifty people are
charged with crimes like murder, attempted murder, and assault. Five
are capital murder cases, meaning they're facing the death penalty,
(11:26):
Keith being one of them. He is charged with killing
more people than anyone else during the uprising, and he's
the only one facing the death penalty for killing only prisoners.
The other four death penalty cases surround the murders of
a few prisoners and officer Robert Valandingham. Back to Bob
(11:46):
and Hermann, they believe they're getting the constant run around
from the prosecutors and Judge Crow when it comes to
their repeated requests for exculpatory evidence. Then a few weeks
before the start of the trial, prosecutors over to the
defense a list of forty three prisoners names and eleven
pages of statements summaries containing potentially favorable evidence. But there's
(12:10):
a major hitch. Prosecutors won't match up the names with
the statements. It will be up to Bob and Hermann
to try to figure out who said what. So the
prosecution said, basically, we promised these guys anonymity, and that's
why we can't match up the statements with the names.
(12:31):
That's total horseshit, outrageous. I mean, that's ridiculous. It would
never be allowed today. It's now June twelfth, nineteen ninety five,
the first day of jury selection. Before the potential jurors
are brought into the courtroom, prosecutors offer Keith a plea deal.
When Keith gave the final no to negotiated resolution, as
(12:57):
I walked out at conference room to tell the judge
and esecutor and we had the jury sitting out there
getting right to jury selection. It's probably the worst feeling
I've ever had in my stomach because I didn't know
if I could save Keith's life. That must have been well,
I say, I've never felt that it's the worst I've
ever felt. Did you give Keith any sort of pep talk?
(13:20):
Duck your head and full speed ahead. What was going
to be the biggest challenge in representing Keith to try
to find jurors who didn't automatically when they heard Lucasville
(13:44):
say guilty. That's herman Carson. He and his co consul
Bob Toy, along with prosecutors Seth Tiger and Bill Anderson,
spend several days interviewing potential jurors. After two black jurors
are used, they settled on ten women and two men. Well,
the jury was all white, mostly high school graduates, you know,
(14:08):
working class. I say, just a typical rural county jury.
Here's Bob Toy. Keith is sitting next to me, and
he looked at me and Bob, I was supposed to
have a jury of my peers. And I looked around
the room. I saw the white judge, I saw his
white lawyers. I saw the white prosecutor, saw the white jurors,
(14:30):
and I said, oh, Keith, baby, this is it. It's terrible.
Here's Judge Fred Crowe. Back then, there was several big
issues about blacks being excluded for whatever. Basically, the prosecutors
had to have a reasonable excuse a black jury. I
don't remember how many black jurors or were, if any,
(14:53):
I can't do there weren't any. It was an all
white jurry. Okay, So now I know, or now I
remember Arts County to be like other counties down there,
the percentage of blacks stuff that. Man. I mean, yeah,
well a man, I want to tell you so sure,
and not on anybody's business. But I just got off
(15:14):
while I was on the phone when you called. I
was I had a half back on blackball team high
school ball team who was black. Was just called and
told me he's getting divorced and he's seventy eight years old.
So at least I had one black Frank. It's June twentieth,
(15:43):
nineteen ninety five. The jury is seated, the prosecution begins
their case. The first witness they call is Sergeant Howard Hudson,
one of the investigators with the Ohio State Highway Patrol.
According to the trial transcripts, Sergeant Hudson testified that as
part of their initial search and processing of the crime scene,
(16:03):
they were around seventy five hundred photographs taken and over
twenty thousand pieces of evidence collected. When asked if any
of the physical evidence collected pointed to Keith Lamar, Sergeant
Hudson says, quote, there was no evidence that came back
conclusive that pointed to anybody. The evidence was largely contaminated.
(16:25):
Sergeant Hudson also says that after a certain number of
people were interviewed, he along with others, decided to charge
Keith Lamar with these killings. I remember a sergeant Hudson
I called sergeant zero because he had zero evidence. A
nice guy, but they really had no evidence besides a
bunch of snitches against Keith. It's just that simple. So
(16:48):
with no physical evidence, Bob and Hermann say, the prosecution's
case hinges on the testimony of fellow prisoners. What did
all of those witnesses have in common? Well, they had
done or participated to some level in the riot and
weren't being prosecuted for it. Two of them maybe did
(17:10):
have some minor charges filed, but no ways near what
they did. According to the trial transcripts, some witnesses receive
lesser sentences. It seems one witness is charged with the
murder than those charges are dropped and another witness is
never charged at all, although he admits a taking part
in at least one of the killings, one of the
(17:32):
same Keith is on trial for. It was people who
were paid to testify, paid by getting lesser sentence and
acquiring their testimony. That's what happened. Nevertheless, there are five
men who testify that Keith was involved in the L
six murders, All described in varying degrees of detail, how
(17:54):
Keith ordered and in some cases took part in the
killings of the so called snitches with the help of
his death squad. One of those death squad members is
Lewis Jones, also one of the prosecution's star witnesses. On
the stand, Lewis Jones claims when he, Keith and another
guy went inside L Block to check on their belongings
(18:15):
and then got stuck there, Keith came up with the
idea of how they could get back out to the yard.
I ask Keith about this. It was Jones testified that
you turned to him and said, hey, there's no point
in us being caught up in this. Let's kill the
snitches and then we can leave. It doesn't follow logically,
(18:35):
you know, Let's we don't want to have anything to
do with the ride, So let's kill people and so
we can be implicated in the ride. You know, that's
another thing too. If if I was responsible for the five,
that's why let me leave, because somebody we're going to
will be, you know, left hole in the back. You know,
(18:56):
we're gonna let you kill these five people, and we're
going to let you leave, you know, because when at
some point this had to come to the end. They
wasn't intended for the riot to last forever. So at
some point somebody got an answer for these deaths. So
why let the guy who's responsible these deaths just get
up to walk out and leave, to leave us having
(19:18):
to explain? Yeah, you know, but none of those questions
were asked, None of those none of the subscripancies were
put to the jewelry. According to that Ohio State Highway
Patrol Index of Interviews, Lewis Jones was interviewed eleven times
(19:39):
after his initial statement. He was moved to another prison
closer to his family in Cleveland, and although Lewis Jones
admitted to taking part in at least one of the killings,
Jones was never indicted for anything that happened during the
uprising and is now out of prison. I'd like to
hear Jones's version of events, and have tried to track
(20:00):
him down with no luck. Next on the stand are
three men who were in that K block cell where
Dennis Weaver was murdered. They all say, again in varying
degrees of detail, that Keith accused Weaver of being a snitch.
Then Keith ordered for Weaver to be killed. Michael Childers,
(20:23):
one of the men who helped choke Weaver to death,
testifies that Keith threatened his life if he didn't jump
in and helped finish the job. On the stand, Childers
calls Keith quote an animal. On cross examination, Childers is
asked about a letter he wrote to prison officials not
(20:44):
long after the uprising, in which he said the FBI
had implanted a mini microphone under his scalp back in
nineteen eighty six. Childers verse says he doesn't recall the letter,
then he denies it altogether. Here's Herman Well. I praise
as serious questions as a competency and the veracity of
(21:07):
what weight can you give to somebody who believes that
he's had a chip in playing in his brain and
people are talking to him through it or communicating with
him through that. As part of his plea deal, Michael
children Is pleads guilty to involuntary manslaughter and is sentenced
five to twenty five years to run concurrent with the
(21:27):
one he was already serving, meaning no time is added
to a sentence. It seems Childrens is no longer incarcerated.
I've reached out to who I believe is him, but
have yet to hear back. Were any of the state's
witnesses believable? Not in my opinion particularly, I mean, yeah,
(21:50):
they just weren't in my opinion. I mean the death squad.
Initially nobody's identifying him, and all of a sudden they're
identifying him. Felt that they were lying, and they had
plenty of incentive to lie. I wonder what Judge Crowe
thinks about that. It seemed like most, if not all,
(22:12):
of the prosecution's witnesses got some sort of deal for
cooperating with the state, So that's probably true. I mean
that most of them did get something at all. That
happens all the time. Doesn't that muddy the waters? It does,
But most prosecutors will tell the jury we don't find
(22:33):
our witnesses in church, we find them in prison. And
that's very much true. If you eliminate the scumbags testimony
against all the scumbags, you would have a hard time
convicted anybody because they prosecutors don't choose their witness After all,
(22:55):
the prisoner witnesses testify. Prosecutors call a Louisville captain and
correct officer, an Ohio State Highway Patrol trooper, and two
pathologists who performed the autopsies on the victims. Once again,
we can't forget the victims in all this. I'm sure
there are family members and friends out there who are
still grieving their loss. Although strangely, according to Keith, Herman,
(23:21):
Bob and Judge Crowe, none of the victims family members
ever came to court during that trial. There wasn't one
representative of any of those deceased inmates that shared up
That struck me as pretty odd. Nobody cared about the
five guys who got kids. The prosecution rests their case
(23:58):
on June twenty seventh. That afternoon, the defense begins presenting theirs.
They call four inmates who testify, in the early hours
of the uprising, they saw Keith out on the wreck yard.
The times varied, but they said he was out there
and he looked normal. One witness is asked if there
was blood or dirt on Keith. He says no. Then
(24:20):
they call William Gino Washington. He was in that K
block cell and witnessed the murder of Dennis Weaver. He
testifies that Keith had nothing to do with Dennis Weaver's death.
Then a bombshell drops during cross examination, Prosecutor Bill Anderson
says they have an audiotaped interview with Gino Washington that
(24:42):
contradicts his entire testimony. Here's Keith's defense attorney Herman Carson.
Excuse my language, but Bill Anderson was so excited, I
thought he was going to piss himself. Judge Crowe asks
for the jury to leave the courtroom. Then the roughly
twenty minute tape is played. On that tape and it's
(25:04):
all in the trial transcripts. Gino Washington is heard saying,
Keith and another guy ordered Dennis Weaver's murder. What were
you feeling and experiencing when you realize that they had
an interview that was basically impeaching your witness, Well, that
was fundamentally unfair they should have disclosed that he had
(25:25):
been listed as a witness back then. I believe their
view is, oh, we didn't know it's going to be exculpatory,
you know, and which my views, that's a bunch of bullshit.
When the jury is brought back in, the prosecutor asks
Gino Washington about this. Washington says, in that taped interview,
investigators at the time we're trying to make him point
(25:47):
the finger at Keith and the other guy. He says,
he lied and told them what they wanted to hear,
because at the time, Gino was scheduled to appear in
front of the parole board, and investigators told him that
they wouldn't let him go until he was quote off investigation.
And today in court he says he's now telling the truth.
(26:11):
And here's another thing I find curious. William Bowling, the
main guy who strangled Dennis Weaver, never took the stand
for the prosecution or the defense. Remember, the state says
that Keith made William Bowling kill Dennis Weaver. So it
seems like it would have been a no brainer on
(26:32):
the part of the prosecution to have him take the
stand and point the finger at Keith. Right, So why
didn't they call him? Maybe the prosecution thought they didn't
need his testimony, or maybe they learned something that made
calling him to risky and could jeopardize their case. Back
(26:54):
to Gina Washington. After he testifies, the defense calls their
last witness to the stand, Keith Lamar. I decided earlone,
I was going to take the stand, something that I
was advised not to do by everybody, you know, but
I was determined to participate in every aspect of this process.
(27:15):
Here's Keith's defense attorney, Bob Toy. I believe that by
calling him it was not going to hurt his case. Okay,
it usually does, but we had a client who was
very unusual in reference to being articulate, intelligent. We thought
(27:35):
he could handle cross examination, and he did as best
he could. We were hoping it would help, could be
a last measure of just presenting a human being to
a jury. On the stand, Keith maintains his innocence. He
says he had nothing to do with the killings in
(27:56):
L Block and in K Block. He admits to Lyne
to investigators that he was asleep when Dennis Weaver was killed,
but he did not order Weaver's murder, nor did he
take part in it, and he has no words to
justify why he didn't stop it. On cross examination, prosecutor
Seth Tiger asks Keith about the testimonies given by the
(28:16):
state's witnesses. Keith says they all lied. Near the end,
Seth Tiger asks Keith, quote, do you like snitches? Keith responds, quote,
I don't trust snitches. Then Tiger asks what does it
feel like to have the power to order someone's death.
(28:37):
Keith answers, I couldn't tell you. I don't know if
I've ever asked you this before, but did you ever
have an issue or beef with snitches at Lucasville? But
you know, I mean, I don't want to be around
(29:00):
somebody who I can't trust. So it wasn't that a
blanket thing that I don't like snitches. I mean, who
who do you know black snitches? Do? I? Yeah, um no, no.
But not liking them and wanting to hurt them are
(29:21):
two different things. Well, I'm designsing you. Of course, the
leader of the quote unquote death squad, which they said
you were. This person led this group of men sell
to sell to kill the snitches. That is an intense
hatred for snitches, right, it's I don't know that it
actually had to be an intense hate with but it
(29:43):
had to be something that as an organization, whatever game
that you belong to, it's an organized dog. No, it's
a blanket artists or you know called the bay because
on a personal level, it's about this person snitched on me.
I was, I had drugs in my sale or whatever
the case may be. It don't that doesn't automatically, you know,
(30:07):
rise to the level of you killing five people. You know,
it's a blanket thing. And the only way you have
a blanket thing like that if it's a part of
the coals of the game that you are in. I
wasn't in the game. You see. That's the thing that
you know, people don't you know, That's what I'm talking about.
The nuance. You're saying that I came in and you
know as some kind of you know, you know, you
(30:28):
know long you know, uh say length and you know
on this you know, crusade to read the prisoner snitches.
If you don't do that as an individual, why would
I take on that as as a twenty three year
old man. That didn't happen On June twenty ninth, after
(30:56):
seven days of testimony, the case goes to the jury.
For this phase of the trial, they will be sequestered.
How did you feel as the jury was about to
go into deliberations. I didn't feel hopeful. There's no defense
I can really put up. Obviously I wasn't on the
(31:16):
other side, So there's nothing I completly say about it,
but that the witnesses to testified on my behalf. I
mean they can say is that they saw me on
the yard. So it was a lame defense compared to
what the state put forth. They put forth for a
cohesive argument and suppress anything that refute it. What they
(31:37):
wouldn't to testify it too. It was laughable, you know, um,
although I didn't laugh. The next day the jury comes
back with its verdict. Keith has found guilty on all charges.
Do I think they had enough to convict them? Oh?
I dog people, you know, you know people, it was
(32:00):
just shopping at the bit, you know, to return the
guilty but and it wasn't. It's about to ride. You
can remember also that you know, this is Radwin oj Simpson,
you know, murdering two white people in California, magively. You know,
Rodney Key, all that happened. You know, all that stuff
was swallows around at that time, you know. So it's
(32:22):
a real racial climate where this happened, you know, and
so you know, all those things I think ultimately meditators
against me. You know, I was guilty at the moment.
I had to manage it well. Next jurors will hear
the mitigating evidence, or evidence that makes the case for
sparing Keith's life and not giving him the death penalty.
(32:45):
Called to testify are some of Keith's family members and
two experts who talk about the intense challenges Keith faced
during his childhood, especially the mental and physical abuse at
the hands of his stepfather, Larry, and the emotional unavailability
of his mother, and how all of that and more
led Keith, like so many others who grow up in
(33:08):
a similar situation, to be vulnerable to adopting a new
set of values, like the values of the streets. On
July seventh, the jury returns its sentencing recommendation. They unanimously
recommend the death penalty for four of the murders and
life with the possibility of parole after thirty years for
(33:29):
the fifth. But it's not over just yet. Judge Crowe
has the ultimate say on whether or not he'll take
the jury's recommendation. So on August twenty first, all reconvene
one last time. This day is like no other because
I came onto the court room and it's just full
(33:52):
then the Rome only all white people. Nobody attain to trial.
They had all evidence at all his witnesses. Nobody gave
a damn about that. You know, but somebody's about to
be sensive to death. You know, this was a lynching.
And I'm telling you I came out in his court
orone and it was just it was a small court
orone body, you know, you know what a city capacity
(34:15):
boy about thirty people, forty people, not know, but it
felt like it was like two hundred people cramped into
this play. They sold up, they showed up, Leah I'm
talking about. And was the most unnerving thing. It was
the most evil thing I've ever felt on seeing in
my life because I knew why they were there. Before
(34:39):
Judge Crowe renders his decision, Keith is allowed to address
the court. Here is part of his videotaped statement, the
only part of the trial that was recorded. The quality
isn't good, but I think it's important to hear Keith
back in nineteen ninety five, just moments before he's about
to learn his face. By the way, you can go
(35:02):
to the Real Killer podcast Instagram page to watch this video.
Every man must be here common before it was actually
approved of day nineteen eighty eight, I was called students
to jurity my ur stuff because of my ashton I
played KiB was sensens to two years imprisonment. In nineteen
(35:25):
eighty nine. Cute man by name Kenya compons because my
ashes are played him. I'm sensor to return of eighteen.
It's a lot of prisoner. Nineteen ninety four, I was
charted nine content aggivated murder death pending special cases. But
because my aster that I killed and I placed my
life and handled prosecute me. Every man must be able
(35:48):
common silly man. We shot a unjust system. I don't
want to sound like I'm disrespecting any one or even
disrespect for myself. I'm number who sett my sin or
a little mysel. Oh bye, just something I don't believe,
and I don't believing what took place in Score prosecuted
(36:12):
he everything he coached, wits and whoever they would be able.
Common said. Apparently Keith's statement makes no impact on Judge
Crowe because moments later he upholds the jury's recommendation and
(36:32):
sentences Keith to death. Here's Judge Crowe. I was nervous
and didn't want to do it, and that's a pretty
to me. I thought I'd have no trouble, but actually
came down to it and bothered me. He was a gentleman,
and I kind of liked the action hotel, and that's
(36:54):
what made it hard to render the verdict. That's what
I did. I like Keith. I'm curious. You don't have
to accept the jury's recommendation for the death penalty, right,
you could shoot, So why did you? Because the aggravating
circumstances were certainly outweighed of mitigating situation. When you get
(37:17):
involved in killing five people, that's pretty aggravating to me.
And you believed in his guilt. You still believe in
his guilt. Yes. In twenty eleven, Judge Crowe retired, citing
issues with his health. According to The Athens News, there
were rumors that the Ohio Supreme Court's Office of Disciplinary
(37:37):
Council had been looking into Judge Crowe's performance on the bench.
When a representative for the Disciplinary Council was asked whether
or not Judge Crowe was a subject of any sort
of investigation, he said he would not comment. I read
that there were some rumors about the Ohio Supreme Courts Office.
The Disciplinary Council was looking at your at your record.
(38:01):
Can you tell me anything about that would have nothing
to do with my conduct of the any trial? But
yes they did. I had a couple of awful employees
that tried to get me in trouble, which nothing came
of us. But nothing to do with any case I
had before or after any case, nothing to do with
(38:26):
any of my judicial decisions that I could think of.
The Athens Knew said that they were looking at your
performance on the bench. Well, they were looking at my
conduct and uh, but it had nothing to do with
any rulings made in reference to a major trial. Was
(38:47):
put that way? What it was, if you want to know, Delegate,
part about it was that commissioner's wife when I had
a crush on me once upon a time, and a
commissioner storted that he's the one I told the papers
about the big investigation of the judge. It was bad publicity.
(39:10):
I mean, they didn't have any charges or anything they said.
Any big investigations on mount doesn't have anything to do
with the rulings, that being prejudice against anybody or anything
like that. When I tell Keith that I spoke with
Judge Crow, I'm so he said it's a fair trial
(39:31):
and everything. Huh oh, well yes, um oh that's what
he's saying. They have them evidence with overwhelming Yeah. He
also said that he liked you. You know, I'm not.
I mean, I'm not laughing like you know, like I'm
enjoying what you're saying. This is absurd, man, It's just
(39:53):
like these fucking people man, you know, my god, there's
too much man, you know. And this person you know,
to sit somewhere wherever the fuck he's sitting at right now,
Judge Crow, I'm trying to say that he really liked me. No,
that he you know, you know, you know I don't.
(40:14):
You don't imagine how many times I don't heard ship
like that for somebody who just put my toothbrush in
their ass, or you can do my meal and the talling,
you know what I mean. And the same person I
want to talk to you about you know what I
mean about your family, how your mother doing. No these
fucking people based on there. Yeah, I'm just previously. You
(40:39):
know I've already battled. I'm in the court room. I'm
back in nineteen ninety five. I'm sitting in this court room.
I'm just envisioning this ship. I came in this court room.
I was defended. We wasn't friends and sit down and
exchange words that they're listening to. Washington fucked me over.
That's and he liked me. He's like, you know what,
(41:02):
court woul you was here. We wasn't in no fucking picnic,
sitting in no motherfucking resting rock Charon and meal. You
was sucking me up. My life. You're taking my life,
you know what I mean. I get mad because you
know I did take to see it personal, because you know,
how can I not. Here's Keith's attorney, Bob Toy. We
(41:29):
did the best we could with what we had, is
what I've believed. I gave him my whole heart, and
I know Herman did too. I have a picture of Keith, myself, Herman,
and our intern Molly waiting for the death verdict. It's
across me in a little counter and I put it
up there front and center. Oh, I've used it many times.
(41:50):
I said, hey, you don't have to listen to what
I say, and if you want to go to trial,
we'll go to trial. And I say, this guy went
to trial. And sometimes we give people advice they don't
listen to, and sometimes not for a good reason. Keith
had a good reason. This reason is he said he
didn't do it. And you know, over the years, you'll
(42:12):
look back at it going, oh my god. I don't
think they had enough evidence and I don't think he
did do it. So that's where you're at. And should
they have convicted him based upon what they had in
the manner in which they did it. No. I reached
out to prosecutors Seth Tiger and Bill Anderson to see
if they'd be willing to talk with me. Seth Tiger
(42:35):
called me back and left me this message. Heymis Rothman.
This is Seth Tiger from the Hamilton County prosecutor. I
was one of the prosecutors on the Keith Lamar Lucastil
prison riot case. I've talked to Bill Anderson, who's also
a Hamilton County prosecutor, and we were co prosecutors on
that case, on the Keith Lamar case, anyway, we are
(42:59):
not interested in getting involved in your investigation or podcast,
So anyway else is going to let you know that
thanks to the call, and anyway, that's it. Thanks. I'm
going to keep trying, but you should know that. Seth
(43:20):
Tiger did talk to The New York Times for a
February twenty twenty two article they did on Keith in
his case. In it, Tiger said this quote, we turned
over everything that we were required to under the rules
of discovery to Bill and I. He is extremely guilty.
He is where he belongs on death row. I did
(43:44):
speak on the phone with Sergeant Howard Hudson, who testified
at Keith's trial and was very hands on in the
investigation for the Ohio State Highway Patrol. At first he
agreed to participate, then he started following me on Instagram.
A couple of weeks later, he texted me this quote,
I'm sorry, I've changed my mind and no longer wish
(44:05):
to participate. By the way, the real killers at Lucasville
are the ones we convicted. So with a trial over,
Keith is transported to a prison in Mansfield, Ohio on
my ride from Lucasville's Mansfield. I think I just doubled
(44:30):
down in terms of my attitude that I would resist
this whole process. And I didn't know obviously what shape
that would take, but I knew that I was going
to fight. When they brought me off the van that
day and was about to walk me to the death
row unit, I stopped walking. And I don't know what
made me do that. It just seemed like if I
(44:52):
was going to fight them, that I might as well
start right now. And I just stopped walking. And you know,
the guards, you know everybody, they seem confused, like why
aren't you walking? And you know I'm innocence. Next time
(45:13):
I'm the real killer. But I tell you what, if
I one day found myself strapped to a journey, if
these people will not be able to call it justice,
will not be able to say that we did right
by this person, a chance at a new trial goes
up in Flames, I remember, and walking past me on
his way out of the courtroom, I mean he said,
(45:35):
good lucky. And for Keith, desperate times call for desperate measures.
It puts you through all this bull shit, and you
if you get angry. See, that's proof that he's an animal. No,
that's proof that I'm a human being, that this shit
hurt if the ship you're doing to me is painful.
(46:04):
The Real Killer is a production of AYR Media and iHeartRadio,
hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and
Eliza Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman, Executive
producer Paulina Williams, Senior associate producer Jill Pesheznik, Coordinator George
(46:26):
fam Editing and sound design by Cameron Taggy, Mixed and
mastered by Cameron Taggy. Audio engineering by Matt Jacobsen. Studio
engineering by Anna Moolshan. Legal counsel for AYR Media, Gianni Douglas,
Executive producer for iHeartRadio, Maya Howard
A warning. This episode contains language and depictions of violence
that may be disturbing to some listeners. The door was
open for me to become an informant. Months before Keith
Lamar is indicted for killing five men during the Lucasville Uprising,
he says he's given an opportunity to work with investigators,
(00:24):
an opportunity he has no interest in taking. I told him,
get the fuck out of my face, the investigator saying
to me, you could you know, like, are you insane?
This is a sweetheart deal. I s a sweetheart deals
from innocent. If you're gonna sept this deal, I'm here
to tell you that we're going to put your black
(00:45):
ass on death. Bro I want a trial, You want
to trial, We're gonna give you a trial. I'm Leah Rothman.
This is the Real Killer. Episode four, Duck your Head
(01:07):
and Full Speed Ahead. In nineteen ninety four, Keith is
charged with nine counts of aggravated murder for the deaths
of Darryl Dipina, Albert Steano, William Savetti, Bruce Vitali, and
(01:27):
Dennis Weaver. His attorneys will have around nine months to
prepare for trial. You believed in Keith's innocence. Yes, yes,
I still do. That's Hermann Carson, one of Keith's nineteen
ninety five trial lawyers. I wonder what Bob Toy, Keith's
other trial attorney, thinks, or if he ever asked Keith
(01:50):
if he did it. You know, when I deal with
a criminal case, I look at the evidence that the
prosecutor has. Can they prove this case beyond a reason?
Will down? I don't ask my clients are by guilty.
I quite frankly don't give a shit. I get why Bob,
as a defense attorney, didn't ask, but I'm not Bob.
(02:11):
So I'm just going to ask you, did you kill
Dennis Weaver? No? I did? Did you kill Darryl Dpina? No?
I did did you kill Albert Steano? No? I did?
Did you kill William Sabetti? No? Did you kill Bruce Vatali? No?
I can imagine what you're thinking. I shouldn't have to
(02:32):
answer that. I mean, I don't think it's unfair to
be asked these questions. Of course, it's fair if we're
trying to lab It's the only way to lap the
US to ask these hard questions. I've dildn't have spend
a months up from day one. Keith answers my questions.
Now I'm going to answer one of his. When I
visited Keith, he asked me to look into the possibility
(02:53):
the men he's accused of killing were not actually snitches
but child molesters and rapists, because if they were, then
what maybe that would point to a different motive for
why they were murdered, or maybe the snitches label was
simply concocted so they would appear more sympathetic to jurors.
And look, there's no way for me to really find
(03:14):
out if they were snitches or not. But I was
able to find their criminal records. So a couple of
them had kidnapping and rape charges, but for the most
part they were like murder, felonious assault, arson, robbery. There
(03:37):
was one one guy who hold on my look, there
was one guy who was at Lucasville for kidnapping and rape.
That was in nineteen eighty three, and he had been
charged with raping a twelve year old and a nineteen
year old back in nineteen seventy seven. I'm not sure
(03:58):
if he was convicted. I just saw that he was charged.
So what do you make of that, well, no less speculation.
You know. The thing that always struck me about the
narrative is that, you know, the state said today were stitches,
and everybody just ran with that, you know, because if they,
(04:19):
if their actual record was introduced, maybe it were prejudice
to jury against you know, caring or having sympathy for
them that they had lost their lives in this real
hogrific way. I just don't want to accept without question
anything the state has to say in terms of narrative
(04:39):
and framing the situation. You know, there's someone else who
might be able to shed some light on this. Former
Lucasville Warden, Arthur Tate. Do you know if the guys,
the inmates who were killed, were they snitches? I don't know. Savetti,
(05:03):
I would say absolutely not now, And this is what
I was told about Savetti. And I don't know if
this is true. I don't know if you've heard a
story similar or contrary or whatever, but Savetti, I mean
I knew him personally. He's an older gentleman. He walked
with a walker, and anytime that he saw me in
the hallway, he would chase me down and he had
(05:24):
something to bit to me about The information that I
got was that when the offenders that got the keys,
they were African American guys, and they started keying the
console and his door popped open, and he came out
and saw them at the console and made the comment
(05:46):
what are you in guys using the in word what
are you doing? And they went right down killed him.
That's the word I got. That's how he got killed.
I don't believe he was a snitch. But there were
a couple inmates that were involved in the snitch game
that were killed. I can't recall their names. So maybe
(06:10):
William Savetti wasn't a snitch, but maybe some of the
others were. I don't think we'll ever know. I'm not
even sure it matters. It doesn't change anything for Keith.
In the months leading up to Keith's trial, one of
Bob and Hermann's first orders of business is to get
it moved from Sciota County, where Lucasville is located, to
(06:32):
somewhere less potentially prejudicial. Here's Bob. We asked for a
change of venue and it was granted, although granting it
by moving into the next county where most of the
people work and Lucasville are associated with it didn't really
help much. The trial will be held thirty eight miles
(06:54):
from Lucasville in Ironton, Ohio. That's in Lawrence County, the
most southern county in the state of Ohio. The demographics
there are similar to Sciota County, well over ninety percent white.
Presiding over the case will be Judge Fred Crowe, the
third Judge. Crowe was fifty years old at the time
of the trial. Today he's seventy seven and retired. I
(07:17):
talked with him over zoom. Did you in your years
of being a judge have a certain reputation? Yeah, I
kind of did. I actually had a song about hanging
Judge Crew. That was the song, and that was a
reputation along most of the attorneys I knew. I was
a strong advocate for law enforcement. Hanging Judge Crowe like
(07:42):
hanging people or what would do? It was a colony
dive song A friend of mine Root. Judge Fred Crowe
comes from a long line of law and order. His
grandfather was a judge, his dad an FBI agent. Keith's attorney,
Bob Toy knows Judge Crowe well. He's argued many cases
in front of him over the years he's something else.
(08:05):
He was definitely pro prosecution. There's no question about it.
It's very simple in Judge Crowe's court. When you get convicted,
you're going to get the max from him, and you're
going to get the death penalty. That's just like a given.
So if the prosecutor gives you an offer and you
have a bad case, you might want to take it.
(08:27):
The prosecutors who will be presenting the states case are
Seth Tiger and Bill Anderson. They were aggressive prosecutors. They
come from Hamilton County. It's a tough county to commit
a crime in. They were very aggressive. They were smart.
So the teams are in place, the venue is set,
(08:48):
but before they can get to jury selection, there are
the pre trial motions, lots of them, mostly surrounding discovery,
what evidence the prosecution has and what the defense wants
them to hand over. This is going to be a
real sticking point in Keith's case. Here's Hermann, Well, we
were asking for what's called Brady material, anything that's favorable
(09:11):
or exculpatory to the defendant they're required to turn over
to the defense, and said anything basically contradicted the state's theory.
Of the case, and of course they weren't going to
give that to us. And just to be clear, did
you have access to the Ohio State Highway Patrol's database
of interviews? No? Did the prosecution. Oh yeah, they had
(09:34):
everything integrated. So there presumably are thousands and thousands and
thousands of pages of interviews transcripts that you were never given. Correct.
In episode two, I talked with Kenneth Marshall from the
Ohio State Highway Patrol. He estimated the number of interviews
(09:55):
they conducted was around twelve hundred, which is a lot
of interviews. I actually got my hands on the index,
and while yes, they were around twelve thirteen hundred interviews conducted,
what's more surprising to me is how many times people
were interviewed. Some are interviewed once, some twice, some are
interviewed five, six, eight times. There's one guy who's interviewed
(10:18):
eleven times and another who's interviewed twelve times. How did
that strike you that these men were interviewed so many times. Well,
I've seen ones where they have had multiple interviews, nothing
like this scope. But you know, this whole situation is
about as non standard as it comes the scope of
the area where things happen, the number of individuals that
(10:42):
could be directly or indirectly or just peripherally involved. You know,
there's just nothing comparable to this case in my experience.
Here's Bob, this was not a normal case. This was
the case where all the politicians were involved. This was
the primary case in the statable while and it rose
(11:05):
to that level because of the unfortunate death of mister Vallanahan,
who was the guard there that had nothing to do
with keys case. After the uprising, around fifty people are
charged with crimes like murder, attempted murder, and assault. Five
are capital murder cases, meaning they're facing the death penalty,
(11:26):
Keith being one of them. He is charged with killing
more people than anyone else during the uprising, and he's
the only one facing the death penalty for killing only prisoners.
The other four death penalty cases surround the murders of
a few prisoners and officer Robert Valandingham. Back to Bob
(11:46):
and Hermann, they believe they're getting the constant run around
from the prosecutors and Judge Crow when it comes to
their repeated requests for exculpatory evidence. Then a few weeks
before the start of the trial, prosecutors over to the
defense a list of forty three prisoners names and eleven
pages of statements summaries containing potentially favorable evidence. But there's
(12:10):
a major hitch. Prosecutors won't match up the names with
the statements. It will be up to Bob and Hermann
to try to figure out who said what. So the
prosecution said, basically, we promised these guys anonymity, and that's
why we can't match up the statements with the names.
(12:31):
That's total horseshit, outrageous. I mean, that's ridiculous. It would
never be allowed today. It's now June twelfth, nineteen ninety five,
the first day of jury selection. Before the potential jurors
are brought into the courtroom, prosecutors offer Keith a plea deal.
When Keith gave the final no to negotiated resolution, as
(12:57):
I walked out at conference room to tell the judge
and esecutor and we had the jury sitting out there
getting right to jury selection. It's probably the worst feeling
I've ever had in my stomach because I didn't know
if I could save Keith's life. That must have been well,
I say, I've never felt that it's the worst I've
ever felt. Did you give Keith any sort of pep talk?
(13:20):
Duck your head and full speed ahead. What was going
to be the biggest challenge in representing Keith to try
to find jurors who didn't automatically when they heard Lucasville
(13:44):
say guilty. That's herman Carson. He and his co consul
Bob Toy, along with prosecutors Seth Tiger and Bill Anderson,
spend several days interviewing potential jurors. After two black jurors
are used, they settled on ten women and two men. Well,
the jury was all white, mostly high school graduates, you know,
(14:08):
working class. I say, just a typical rural county jury.
Here's Bob Toy. Keith is sitting next to me, and
he looked at me and Bob, I was supposed to
have a jury of my peers. And I looked around
the room. I saw the white judge, I saw his
white lawyers. I saw the white prosecutor, saw the white jurors,
(14:30):
and I said, oh, Keith, baby, this is it. It's terrible.
Here's Judge Fred Crowe. Back then, there was several big
issues about blacks being excluded for whatever. Basically, the prosecutors
had to have a reasonable excuse a black jury. I
don't remember how many black jurors or were, if any,
(14:53):
I can't do there weren't any. It was an all
white jurry. Okay, So now I know, or now I
remember Arts County to be like other counties down there,
the percentage of blacks stuff that. Man. I mean, yeah,
well a man, I want to tell you so sure,
and not on anybody's business. But I just got off
(15:14):
while I was on the phone when you called. I
was I had a half back on blackball team high
school ball team who was black. Was just called and
told me he's getting divorced and he's seventy eight years old.
So at least I had one black Frank. It's June twentieth,
(15:43):
nineteen ninety five. The jury is seated, the prosecution begins
their case. The first witness they call is Sergeant Howard Hudson,
one of the investigators with the Ohio State Highway Patrol.
According to the trial transcripts, Sergeant Hudson testified that as
part of their initial search and processing of the crime scene,
(16:03):
they were around seventy five hundred photographs taken and over
twenty thousand pieces of evidence collected. When asked if any
of the physical evidence collected pointed to Keith Lamar, Sergeant
Hudson says, quote, there was no evidence that came back
conclusive that pointed to anybody. The evidence was largely contaminated.
(16:25):
Sergeant Hudson also says that after a certain number of
people were interviewed, he along with others, decided to charge
Keith Lamar with these killings. I remember a sergeant Hudson
I called sergeant zero because he had zero evidence. A
nice guy, but they really had no evidence besides a
bunch of snitches against Keith. It's just that simple. So
(16:48):
with no physical evidence, Bob and Hermann say, the prosecution's
case hinges on the testimony of fellow prisoners. What did
all of those witnesses have in common? Well, they had
done or participated to some level in the riot and
weren't being prosecuted for it. Two of them maybe did
(17:10):
have some minor charges filed, but no ways near what
they did. According to the trial transcripts, some witnesses receive
lesser sentences. It seems one witness is charged with the
murder than those charges are dropped and another witness is
never charged at all, although he admits a taking part
in at least one of the killings, one of the
(17:32):
same Keith is on trial for. It was people who
were paid to testify, paid by getting lesser sentence and
acquiring their testimony. That's what happened. Nevertheless, there are five
men who testify that Keith was involved in the L
six murders, All described in varying degrees of detail, how
(17:54):
Keith ordered and in some cases took part in the
killings of the so called snitches with the help of
his death squad. One of those death squad members is
Lewis Jones, also one of the prosecution's star witnesses. On
the stand, Lewis Jones claims when he, Keith and another
guy went inside L Block to check on their belongings
(18:15):
and then got stuck there, Keith came up with the
idea of how they could get back out to the yard.
I ask Keith about this. It was Jones testified that
you turned to him and said, hey, there's no point
in us being caught up in this. Let's kill the
snitches and then we can leave. It doesn't follow logically,
(18:35):
you know, Let's we don't want to have anything to
do with the ride, So let's kill people and so
we can be implicated in the ride. You know, that's
another thing too. If if I was responsible for the five,
that's why let me leave, because somebody we're going to
will be, you know, left hole in the back. You know,
(18:56):
we're gonna let you kill these five people, and we're
going to let you leave, you know, because when at
some point this had to come to the end. They
wasn't intended for the riot to last forever. So at
some point somebody got an answer for these deaths. So
why let the guy who's responsible these deaths just get
up to walk out and leave, to leave us having
(19:18):
to explain? Yeah, you know, but none of those questions
were asked, None of those none of the subscripancies were
put to the jewelry. According to that Ohio State Highway
Patrol Index of Interviews, Lewis Jones was interviewed eleven times
(19:39):
after his initial statement. He was moved to another prison
closer to his family in Cleveland, and although Lewis Jones
admitted to taking part in at least one of the killings,
Jones was never indicted for anything that happened during the
uprising and is now out of prison. I'd like to
hear Jones's version of events, and have tried to track
(20:00):
him down with no luck. Next on the stand are
three men who were in that K block cell where
Dennis Weaver was murdered. They all say, again in varying
degrees of detail, that Keith accused Weaver of being a snitch.
Then Keith ordered for Weaver to be killed. Michael Childers,
(20:23):
one of the men who helped choke Weaver to death,
testifies that Keith threatened his life if he didn't jump
in and helped finish the job. On the stand, Childers
calls Keith quote an animal. On cross examination, Childers is
asked about a letter he wrote to prison officials not
(20:44):
long after the uprising, in which he said the FBI
had implanted a mini microphone under his scalp back in
nineteen eighty six. Childers verse says he doesn't recall the letter,
then he denies it altogether. Here's Herman Well. I praise
as serious questions as a competency and the veracity of
(21:07):
what weight can you give to somebody who believes that
he's had a chip in playing in his brain and
people are talking to him through it or communicating with
him through that. As part of his plea deal, Michael
children Is pleads guilty to involuntary manslaughter and is sentenced
five to twenty five years to run concurrent with the
(21:27):
one he was already serving, meaning no time is added
to a sentence. It seems Childrens is no longer incarcerated.
I've reached out to who I believe is him, but
have yet to hear back. Were any of the state's
witnesses believable? Not in my opinion particularly, I mean, yeah,
(21:50):
they just weren't in my opinion. I mean the death squad.
Initially nobody's identifying him, and all of a sudden they're
identifying him. Felt that they were lying, and they had
plenty of incentive to lie. I wonder what Judge Crowe
thinks about that. It seemed like most, if not all,
(22:12):
of the prosecution's witnesses got some sort of deal for
cooperating with the state, So that's probably true. I mean
that most of them did get something at all. That
happens all the time. Doesn't that muddy the waters? It does,
But most prosecutors will tell the jury we don't find
(22:33):
our witnesses in church, we find them in prison. And
that's very much true. If you eliminate the scumbags testimony
against all the scumbags, you would have a hard time
convicted anybody because they prosecutors don't choose their witness After all,
(22:55):
the prisoner witnesses testify. Prosecutors call a Louisville captain and
correct officer, an Ohio State Highway Patrol trooper, and two
pathologists who performed the autopsies on the victims. Once again,
we can't forget the victims in all this. I'm sure
there are family members and friends out there who are
still grieving their loss. Although strangely, according to Keith, Herman,
(23:21):
Bob and Judge Crowe, none of the victims family members
ever came to court during that trial. There wasn't one
representative of any of those deceased inmates that shared up
That struck me as pretty odd. Nobody cared about the
five guys who got kids. The prosecution rests their case
(23:58):
on June twenty seventh. That afternoon, the defense begins presenting theirs.
They call four inmates who testify, in the early hours
of the uprising, they saw Keith out on the wreck yard.
The times varied, but they said he was out there
and he looked normal. One witness is asked if there
was blood or dirt on Keith. He says no. Then
(24:20):
they call William Gino Washington. He was in that K
block cell and witnessed the murder of Dennis Weaver. He
testifies that Keith had nothing to do with Dennis Weaver's death.
Then a bombshell drops during cross examination, Prosecutor Bill Anderson
says they have an audiotaped interview with Gino Washington that
(24:42):
contradicts his entire testimony. Here's Keith's defense attorney Herman Carson.
Excuse my language, but Bill Anderson was so excited, I
thought he was going to piss himself. Judge Crowe asks
for the jury to leave the courtroom. Then the roughly
twenty minute tape is played. On that tape and it's
(25:04):
all in the trial transcripts. Gino Washington is heard saying,
Keith and another guy ordered Dennis Weaver's murder. What were
you feeling and experiencing when you realize that they had
an interview that was basically impeaching your witness, Well, that
was fundamentally unfair they should have disclosed that he had
(25:25):
been listed as a witness back then. I believe their
view is, oh, we didn't know it's going to be exculpatory,
you know, and which my views, that's a bunch of bullshit.
When the jury is brought back in, the prosecutor asks
Gino Washington about this. Washington says, in that taped interview,
investigators at the time we're trying to make him point
(25:47):
the finger at Keith and the other guy. He says,
he lied and told them what they wanted to hear,
because at the time, Gino was scheduled to appear in
front of the parole board, and investigators told him that
they wouldn't let him go until he was quote off investigation.
And today in court he says he's now telling the truth.
(26:11):
And here's another thing I find curious. William Bowling, the
main guy who strangled Dennis Weaver, never took the stand
for the prosecution or the defense. Remember, the state says
that Keith made William Bowling kill Dennis Weaver. So it
seems like it would have been a no brainer on
(26:32):
the part of the prosecution to have him take the
stand and point the finger at Keith. Right, So why
didn't they call him? Maybe the prosecution thought they didn't
need his testimony, or maybe they learned something that made
calling him to risky and could jeopardize their case. Back
(26:54):
to Gina Washington. After he testifies, the defense calls their
last witness to the stand, Keith Lamar. I decided earlone,
I was going to take the stand, something that I
was advised not to do by everybody, you know, but
I was determined to participate in every aspect of this process.
(27:15):
Here's Keith's defense attorney, Bob Toy. I believe that by
calling him it was not going to hurt his case. Okay,
it usually does, but we had a client who was
very unusual in reference to being articulate, intelligent. We thought
(27:35):
he could handle cross examination, and he did as best
he could. We were hoping it would help, could be
a last measure of just presenting a human being to
a jury. On the stand, Keith maintains his innocence. He
says he had nothing to do with the killings in
(27:56):
L Block and in K Block. He admits to Lyne
to investigators that he was asleep when Dennis Weaver was killed,
but he did not order Weaver's murder, nor did he
take part in it, and he has no words to
justify why he didn't stop it. On cross examination, prosecutor
Seth Tiger asks Keith about the testimonies given by the
(28:16):
state's witnesses. Keith says they all lied. Near the end,
Seth Tiger asks Keith, quote, do you like snitches? Keith responds, quote,
I don't trust snitches. Then Tiger asks what does it
feel like to have the power to order someone's death.
(28:37):
Keith answers, I couldn't tell you. I don't know if
I've ever asked you this before, but did you ever
have an issue or beef with snitches at Lucasville? But
you know, I mean, I don't want to be around
(29:00):
somebody who I can't trust. So it wasn't that a
blanket thing that I don't like snitches. I mean, who
who do you know black snitches? Do? I? Yeah, um no, no.
But not liking them and wanting to hurt them are
(29:21):
two different things. Well, I'm designsing you. Of course, the
leader of the quote unquote death squad, which they said
you were. This person led this group of men sell
to sell to kill the snitches. That is an intense
hatred for snitches, right, it's I don't know that it
actually had to be an intense hate with but it
(29:43):
had to be something that as an organization, whatever game
that you belong to, it's an organized dog. No, it's
a blanket artists or you know called the bay because
on a personal level, it's about this person snitched on me.
I was, I had drugs in my sale or whatever
the case may be. It don't that doesn't automatically, you know,
(30:07):
rise to the level of you killing five people. You know,
it's a blanket thing. And the only way you have
a blanket thing like that if it's a part of
the coals of the game that you are in. I
wasn't in the game. You see. That's the thing that
you know, people don't you know, That's what I'm talking about.
The nuance. You're saying that I came in and you
know as some kind of you know, you know, you
(30:28):
know long you know, uh say length and you know
on this you know, crusade to read the prisoner snitches.
If you don't do that as an individual, why would
I take on that as as a twenty three year
old man. That didn't happen On June twenty ninth, after
(30:56):
seven days of testimony, the case goes to the jury.
For this phase of the trial, they will be sequestered.
How did you feel as the jury was about to
go into deliberations. I didn't feel hopeful. There's no defense
I can really put up. Obviously I wasn't on the
(31:16):
other side, So there's nothing I completly say about it,
but that the witnesses to testified on my behalf. I
mean they can say is that they saw me on
the yard. So it was a lame defense compared to
what the state put forth. They put forth for a
cohesive argument and suppress anything that refute it. What they
(31:37):
wouldn't to testify it too. It was laughable, you know, um,
although I didn't laugh. The next day the jury comes
back with its verdict. Keith has found guilty on all charges.
Do I think they had enough to convict them? Oh?
I dog people, you know, you know people, it was
(32:00):
just shopping at the bit, you know, to return the
guilty but and it wasn't. It's about to ride. You
can remember also that you know, this is Radwin oj Simpson,
you know, murdering two white people in California, magively. You know,
Rodney Key, all that happened. You know, all that stuff
was swallows around at that time, you know. So it's
(32:22):
a real racial climate where this happened, you know, and
so you know, all those things I think ultimately meditators
against me. You know, I was guilty at the moment.
I had to manage it well. Next jurors will hear
the mitigating evidence, or evidence that makes the case for
sparing Keith's life and not giving him the death penalty.
(32:45):
Called to testify are some of Keith's family members and
two experts who talk about the intense challenges Keith faced
during his childhood, especially the mental and physical abuse at
the hands of his stepfather, Larry, and the emotional unavailability
of his mother, and how all of that and more
led Keith, like so many others who grow up in
(33:08):
a similar situation, to be vulnerable to adopting a new
set of values, like the values of the streets. On
July seventh, the jury returns its sentencing recommendation. They unanimously
recommend the death penalty for four of the murders and
life with the possibility of parole after thirty years for
(33:29):
the fifth. But it's not over just yet. Judge Crowe
has the ultimate say on whether or not he'll take
the jury's recommendation. So on August twenty first, all reconvene
one last time. This day is like no other because
I came onto the court room and it's just full
(33:52):
then the Rome only all white people. Nobody attain to trial.
They had all evidence at all his witnesses. Nobody gave
a damn about that. You know, but somebody's about to
be sensive to death. You know, this was a lynching.
And I'm telling you I came out in his court
orone and it was just it was a small court
orone body, you know, you know what a city capacity
(34:15):
boy about thirty people, forty people, not know, but it
felt like it was like two hundred people cramped into
this play. They sold up, they showed up, Leah I'm
talking about. And was the most unnerving thing. It was
the most evil thing I've ever felt on seeing in
my life because I knew why they were there. Before
(34:39):
Judge Crowe renders his decision, Keith is allowed to address
the court. Here is part of his videotaped statement, the
only part of the trial that was recorded. The quality
isn't good, but I think it's important to hear Keith
back in nineteen ninety five, just moments before he's about
to learn his face. By the way, you can go
(35:02):
to the Real Killer podcast Instagram page to watch this video.
Every man must be here common before it was actually
approved of day nineteen eighty eight, I was called students
to jurity my ur stuff because of my ashton I
played KiB was sensens to two years imprisonment. In nineteen
(35:25):
eighty nine. Cute man by name Kenya compons because my
ashes are played him. I'm sensor to return of eighteen.
It's a lot of prisoner. Nineteen ninety four, I was
charted nine content aggivated murder death pending special cases. But
because my aster that I killed and I placed my
life and handled prosecute me. Every man must be able
(35:48):
common silly man. We shot a unjust system. I don't
want to sound like I'm disrespecting any one or even
disrespect for myself. I'm number who sett my sin or
a little mysel. Oh bye, just something I don't believe,
and I don't believing what took place in Score prosecuted
(36:12):
he everything he coached, wits and whoever they would be able.
Common said. Apparently Keith's statement makes no impact on Judge
Crowe because moments later he upholds the jury's recommendation and
(36:32):
sentences Keith to death. Here's Judge Crowe. I was nervous
and didn't want to do it, and that's a pretty
to me. I thought I'd have no trouble, but actually
came down to it and bothered me. He was a gentleman,
and I kind of liked the action hotel, and that's
(36:54):
what made it hard to render the verdict. That's what
I did. I like Keith. I'm curious. You don't have
to accept the jury's recommendation for the death penalty, right,
you could shoot, So why did you? Because the aggravating
circumstances were certainly outweighed of mitigating situation. When you get
(37:17):
involved in killing five people, that's pretty aggravating to me.
And you believed in his guilt. You still believe in
his guilt. Yes. In twenty eleven, Judge Crowe retired, citing
issues with his health. According to The Athens News, there
were rumors that the Ohio Supreme Court's Office of Disciplinary
(37:37):
Council had been looking into Judge Crowe's performance on the bench.
When a representative for the Disciplinary Council was asked whether
or not Judge Crowe was a subject of any sort
of investigation, he said he would not comment. I read
that there were some rumors about the Ohio Supreme Courts Office.
The Disciplinary Council was looking at your at your record.
(38:01):
Can you tell me anything about that would have nothing
to do with my conduct of the any trial? But
yes they did. I had a couple of awful employees
that tried to get me in trouble, which nothing came
of us. But nothing to do with any case I
had before or after any case, nothing to do with
(38:26):
any of my judicial decisions that I could think of.
The Athens Knew said that they were looking at your
performance on the bench. Well, they were looking at my
conduct and uh, but it had nothing to do with
any rulings made in reference to a major trial. Was
(38:47):
put that way? What it was, if you want to know, Delegate,
part about it was that commissioner's wife when I had
a crush on me once upon a time, and a
commissioner storted that he's the one I told the papers
about the big investigation of the judge. It was bad publicity.
(39:10):
I mean, they didn't have any charges or anything they said.
Any big investigations on mount doesn't have anything to do
with the rulings, that being prejudice against anybody or anything
like that. When I tell Keith that I spoke with
Judge Crow, I'm so he said it's a fair trial
(39:31):
and everything. Huh oh, well yes, um oh that's what
he's saying. They have them evidence with overwhelming Yeah. He
also said that he liked you. You know, I'm not.
I mean, I'm not laughing like you know, like I'm
enjoying what you're saying. This is absurd, man, It's just
(39:53):
like these fucking people man, you know, my god, there's
too much man, you know. And this person you know,
to sit somewhere wherever the fuck he's sitting at right now,
Judge Crow, I'm trying to say that he really liked me. No,
that he you know, you know, you know I don't.
(40:14):
You don't imagine how many times I don't heard ship
like that for somebody who just put my toothbrush in
their ass, or you can do my meal and the talling,
you know what I mean. And the same person I
want to talk to you about you know what I
mean about your family, how your mother doing. No these
fucking people based on there. Yeah, I'm just previously. You
(40:39):
know I've already battled. I'm in the court room. I'm
back in nineteen ninety five. I'm sitting in this court room.
I'm just envisioning this ship. I came in this court room.
I was defended. We wasn't friends and sit down and
exchange words that they're listening to. Washington fucked me over.
That's and he liked me. He's like, you know what,
(41:02):
court woul you was here. We wasn't in no fucking picnic,
sitting in no motherfucking resting rock Charon and meal. You
was sucking me up. My life. You're taking my life,
you know what I mean. I get mad because you
know I did take to see it personal, because you know,
how can I not. Here's Keith's attorney, Bob Toy. We
(41:29):
did the best we could with what we had, is
what I've believed. I gave him my whole heart, and
I know Herman did too. I have a picture of Keith, myself, Herman,
and our intern Molly waiting for the death verdict. It's
across me in a little counter and I put it
up there front and center. Oh, I've used it many times.
(41:50):
I said, hey, you don't have to listen to what
I say, and if you want to go to trial,
we'll go to trial. And I say, this guy went
to trial. And sometimes we give people advice they don't
listen to, and sometimes not for a good reason. Keith
had a good reason. This reason is he said he
didn't do it. And you know, over the years, you'll
(42:12):
look back at it going, oh my god. I don't
think they had enough evidence and I don't think he
did do it. So that's where you're at. And should
they have convicted him based upon what they had in
the manner in which they did it. No. I reached
out to prosecutors Seth Tiger and Bill Anderson to see
if they'd be willing to talk with me. Seth Tiger
(42:35):
called me back and left me this message. Heymis Rothman.
This is Seth Tiger from the Hamilton County prosecutor. I
was one of the prosecutors on the Keith Lamar Lucastil
prison riot case. I've talked to Bill Anderson, who's also
a Hamilton County prosecutor, and we were co prosecutors on
that case, on the Keith Lamar case, anyway, we are
(42:59):
not interested in getting involved in your investigation or podcast,
So anyway else is going to let you know that
thanks to the call, and anyway, that's it. Thanks. I'm
going to keep trying, but you should know that. Seth
(43:20):
Tiger did talk to The New York Times for a
February twenty twenty two article they did on Keith in
his case. In it, Tiger said this quote, we turned
over everything that we were required to under the rules
of discovery to Bill and I. He is extremely guilty.
He is where he belongs on death row. I did
(43:44):
speak on the phone with Sergeant Howard Hudson, who testified
at Keith's trial and was very hands on in the
investigation for the Ohio State Highway Patrol. At first he
agreed to participate, then he started following me on Instagram.
A couple of weeks later, he texted me this quote,
I'm sorry, I've changed my mind and no longer wish
(44:05):
to participate. By the way, the real killers at Lucasville
are the ones we convicted. So with a trial over,
Keith is transported to a prison in Mansfield, Ohio on
my ride from Lucasville's Mansfield. I think I just doubled
(44:30):
down in terms of my attitude that I would resist
this whole process. And I didn't know obviously what shape
that would take, but I knew that I was going
to fight. When they brought me off the van that
day and was about to walk me to the death
row unit, I stopped walking. And I don't know what
made me do that. It just seemed like if I
(44:52):
was going to fight them, that I might as well
start right now. And I just stopped walking. And you know,
the guards, you know everybody, they seem confused, like why
aren't you walking? And you know I'm innocence. Next time
(45:13):
I'm the real killer. But I tell you what, if
I one day found myself strapped to a journey, if
these people will not be able to call it justice,
will not be able to say that we did right
by this person, a chance at a new trial goes
up in Flames, I remember, and walking past me on
his way out of the courtroom, I mean he said,
(45:35):
good lucky. And for Keith, desperate times call for desperate measures.
It puts you through all this bull shit, and you
if you get angry. See, that's proof that he's an animal. No,
that's proof that I'm a human being, that this shit
hurt if the ship you're doing to me is painful.
(46:04):
The Real Killer is a production of AYR Media and iHeartRadio,
hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and
Eliza Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman, Executive
producer Paulina Williams, Senior associate producer Jill Pesheznik, Coordinator George
(46:26):
fam Editing and sound design by Cameron Taggy, Mixed and
mastered by Cameron Taggy. Audio engineering by Matt Jacobsen. Studio
engineering by Anna Moolshan. Legal counsel for AYR Media, Gianni Douglas,
Executive producer for iHeartRadio, Maya Howard
Host
Leah Rothman
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