April 6, 2023 • 35 mins
Many blame the Lucasville uprising on the prayer leader of the Sunni Muslim prisoners. A revealing conversation with Siddique Abdullah Hasan sheds light on what he says happened during those 11 days, why he thinks he was convicted and sent to Death Row and whether or not he believes Keith was the leader of the “Death Squad.”
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
A warning. This episode contains language and depictions of violence
that may be disturbing to some listeners. Hello, this is
a prepaid debit call from Sadiq Abdullah Hassan, the Sunni
(00:23):
Muslim leader or imam at Lucasville at the time of
the nineteen ninety three uprising, the uprising during which ten
people were killed and Keith Lamar was sent to death
row for five of them. Thank you for using TTL
and good and good afternoon, Good afternoon. How are you? Oh? Thanks,
(00:45):
consider I'm good. Hassan, formerly known as Carlos Sanders, was
convicted of various crimes that took place during the uprising
and sentenced to death for his alleged role in the
murder of Officer Robert for Landingham. Hassan calls me from
death row at the Ohio State Penitentiary, the same prison
(01:05):
where Keith is. Thankfully, Hassan has agreed to speak with
me about his story, his uprising, his case. I need
to learn more about what happened back in nineteen ninety
three from the man who was at the very center
of it all. Is what transpired during those eleven brutal days,
(01:26):
what he intended. Are there any similarities in the investigation
and prosecution of his case and Keith's, and does he
have any insight into whether or not Keith was the
actual leader of the so called death squad. I don't
want to use all of your time today so to
decide for this purpose, I'm Leah Rothman. This is the
(02:02):
Real Killer, Episode nine, The Scapegoat. I asked Keith a
while back if he and Hassan, or he and any
of the others from Lucasville who are housed at the
Ohio State Penitentiary talk about their cases, compare notes, try
(02:26):
to help each other. He said, no, there's an unwritten
rule about it. It's just not something you do. It's
not something you talk about. So I have no idea
how Hassan will react when I ask him about Keith,
if he'll shut me down or be open to talking.
So at first I decide to tread lightly. Did you
(02:50):
know him before the uprising? Yeah? And no, not know
him personally. I've seen him fight in the box room
range because I used to boxing right one day yards
in the boxing ring. At another time, I was welcome
with some Muslims. Who is going to trial, recreation job
or somewhere and he had locks of some rosaries around
(03:11):
his neck or some knees, and some of them fell off,
and he became discouraged and sicklemof and I was like,
oh man, I'll say, oh no, I'm gonna become discouraged.
To pick him up, put him back home, you know,
for me and some of the other Muslim pick him
up and gave him time and what the riot happened
(03:31):
and we end up on death row together. I brought
that up to him, and he remembered that I planned
to come back to the subject of Keith a bit
later today. Hassan is sixty born and raised in Georgia.
In nineteen seventy eight, at age fifteen, he was sent
to a juvenile detention center for aggravated assault with intent
(03:52):
to rob He says while he was there he escaped,
so for that he was tried as an adult and
transferred to prison. Eventually, he was released and moved to
Ohio in nineteen eighty three. The next year, Hassan was
convicted of aggravated robbery and sentenced thirteen to twenty five years.
In April of nineteen eighty eight, at the age of
(04:14):
twenty five, he was transferred to Lucasville. Lucasville, it was
very loud. People would be thrown yurine pieces, bodily races
on one another, thorn scolding coffee on one another faces.
It was like like okay, care it was. It was
(04:38):
just a wild environment. There was a lot of stabbing
and murdering going on an institution, a lot of racism.
There was a few black prisoners that were murdered by
staff numbers. Can you tell me a little bit about
how Warden Tate ran the prison? Okay, yes, Alka Kate
Junior also known as king Off. The sent him there
(05:00):
and his job was to straighten out the problem. And
not only was prisoners, but even with staff numbers. Staff
number had become accustomed to a certain culture and take.
When he came, he didn't care who told that. He
actually stepped on whether you were the inmate or whether
you was a officer or a staff number. His position
was this institution gonna be running my way or you
(05:22):
could hit the otway. And how did you become the
imm at Lucasville. My predecessor made his intention that he
was going to step down from being the iman, which
would be the spiritual leader and head of the Muslim community,
and he said that he was hand picking me to
(05:44):
be his professor. That must have felt great that you
were chosen. No, absolutely, not to the contrary. I know
because a lot of prisoners who had a very aggressive
and assaulted type behavior, they was now being trying and
for to Lucasviere and older people in Lucasville was now
being moved out. So Lucasville used to be very violent,
(06:08):
an abuse of type environment, but now you got a
lot of young people came in and it's increased tremendously.
So contrary to the popular opinion, No, I was not
pleased to be appointed, but reluctantly I did accept the
position of becoming dispirit ahead for the Muslims before the uprising,
where were you housed? I was an honor block, and
(06:32):
you have to be a person that out of trouble.
You can't be getting in trouble to be an honor block.
So I became more or less amount of prisoner staying
out of trouble, good work performance and behavior, and being
enrolled in the academical school you get a good time credit.
I was one year away from the parole board at
the time of the uprising. In episode two, we talked
(06:57):
a lot about what happened in the days leading up
to the uprising, specifically in regard to the TB test
Warden Arthur Tate planned to administer to those one hundred
and fifty nine men who had previously refused it. The
Muslim community believed the test, which contained phenol, was a
form of alcohol, and for them being forced to consume
(07:18):
alcohol was a violation of Islamic law and their religious freedoms.
So the Muslim prisoners, led by Hassan, stood their ground.
So did Warden Tate. Almost kind of him that just
because the person comes to prison and adore the gates
are actually closed behind him, that there's not fought for
(07:40):
prisoners of their constitutional right. If you can use some
other method that the upset pasury if for your analysis
would suffice, If that will work, I mean we would
find him affect. His position was he was not going
to allow prisoners, in this particular case Muslims to dictate
to him. Are you run the institution? On Easter Sunday,
(08:02):
April eleventh, the Muslim prisoners were determined to show Warden
Tate who actually ran his institution, but Hassan says things
did not go as planned. What you're about to hear
is Hassan's behind the prison wall account of what he
says happened. There was another intended to be an uprising,
(08:28):
or if some people love to say, all right, to
begin with, it's supposed to be a peaceful protest, you know,
because opposition was coming in here institute knowledge rules. We
felt if we could take over a certain place of
the portion of the prison or one particular Bob and
barricade ourselson and try to get the attention of the
(08:49):
media and his superior in central office, that we can
try to resolve the matter. The plans for it to
be a non violent protest, right, But in order to
barricade yourselves like you had to, like you got to
get the guards out of there, right, So was that
part of the plan? I mean, because I think the
first thing that people on the yard saw was like
a guard running out with blood running down his head.
(09:10):
I mean, you guys had to get control in order
to barricade yourselves in, right, absolutely. And you know there
are some people who may be submissive and some people
who wouldn't be submissive. I can't say because I was
not part of why this particularly, I don't know if
it was one of the people who initially took over
of the area or just somebody seeing the opportunity that
(09:33):
these officers are losing they post and just took opportunity
to attack an officer. I don't know what the circumstances were,
but yes, everyone knows that you have to have bargaining ships,
and you have no bargaining ships. Why would they allow
you to just barricade yourself there if you've got something
to negotiate with, So yes, people would obviously know that
(09:57):
piece would take in the officer hostice and and and
trying to use them as bargaining ships to achieve your objectives.
So the hostages that were taken there were I think
twelve initially, but then some were released. And then because
like I said, nobody wanted to see any hostage or
(10:17):
anyone being harmed, so when people were asked when the
guards was harmed, they released them without any strange attached.
They didn't ask for anything for it. They wanted them
to get medical attention immediately. So yes, one of the
things they did we did was released false hostages. From
the beginning, what was intended to be a peaceful protest
and turned into a full scale rebellion. Hastin says his
(10:41):
peaceful protest was hijacked, the result a full scale rebellion.
There was a group of people they became known and
transciss and stuff. I've read at the death Squad. They
was gone around filling people doing the nite a part
of the uprising. Tell me if I've got this right
(11:04):
or not. But I read that you wanted to put
these people who were alleged snitches in cells, locked in
cells for their own safety. Is that true? Yes, In
the beginning, when people were talking about killing the snitches,
killing the snitches, like killing all the Homosexes, you're gonna
have bodies all over this place. No, if you feel
(11:27):
they snitches and you're concerned about them seeing you do something,
but just lock them up and they sail and they can't.
They won't be running around their institutions. So people was
being locked up in l six for their protection, you know.
So that's that's the moment that you're talking about. But
then when I left from this area and went to
the bobby shop and was talking to some Muslims, because
(11:49):
about forty five minutes an hour, so then you know
they're not they're killing the snitches. So the plan is
for this non violent protest. When you see what is unfolding,
I mean, were you freaking out? I mean because if
it wasn't what you wanted right, And then all of
the brothers told me said, man, you need to saida
(12:11):
you might having a panic attack. One of the Muslim
brothers comings and his over security and he appointed some
of the brothers to take me in the room and
let me realize. He says, look, we got this, just
go relax of few minutes. Man, they're like, keep having
a panic attack. So if that's what you mean by
freaking out, then yes, I said, hold on, go get
some of the brothers. Don't get some of the brothers
own security and tell him out to meet me back
(12:31):
in the Bobby shop. So they met Beckam. The bobby
shop is about fifteen twenty Muslims. They had all different
types of weapons as federer and we was on our
way going toward L six some kind of way. The
people that burn down they murdering. The people in L
six had heard that we was coming and they ran
out on the reclaration yard. And when I came on
myself and other Muslim came into L six. We've seen
(12:55):
people and people was gagging for air, and I told
people to get him off and get some of these
other guys out. So they took them and took them
to the reparation yard, and some of them actually survived.
Three men survived their beatings, Andrey Stockton was one of them.
You met him in the last episode. The rest of
the death Squad's victims and L six did not survive.
(13:16):
And what happened was people were saying that the majority
of the people that was killed was white. For now
white a sense of fear as if it was a
racial thing, and we knew it was not racial. It
would never intended to be a right uprising to begin with,
and everything was real jedery and people were feeling uncomfortable.
So I think uprising or happened round three o'clock a
(13:39):
coast to three o'clock, so maybe by eight thirty then
they coming. He got on the bullhun and said, look,
we're getting ready to say our prayers, and we asked
that y'all be hold down the noise, so give us
the respect that we would give y'all. And while we
say our prayers, and after we got who standing, Commons
(14:01):
got on the bullhorn again and he said that if
anybody Kristen, Jews or whatever your religious nomination is, y'all
want to come down here and pray, y'all can come
down here in the same error that we use and pray.
And he also requested that they give the other people
that came down the same respect that they gave the
(14:23):
Muslim being quiet while they're praying. And that was like
the ice and on the cake that broke up a
lot of detention. From that point on, the three main
groups previous enemies, remember, the Sunni Muslims, the Aryan Brotherhood,
and the Black gangster disciples put their differences aside and
formed a common bond with each other against the prison administration.
(14:45):
So as the days are dragging on, what are you thinking?
I didn't think it was going well. I think the
prison authorities with trying they darn best in their mind
for good reasons to use stall characters, trying to get
their officers back without having to give up a whole lot,
(15:07):
and prisoners was not willing to do that because we
understood if there was no hostages, they would have thrown
the place long comic goal and people would have been
murdered and seriously injured, and it was not going to
will Then, as we know by now, things took a
major turn on Thursday the fifteenth. How did things change
(15:31):
after the Landingham was killed? Once the Landingham body was
placed on the recreation yard a kind of speed up
the process. The prison authorities knocked stot trying to operate
or negotiate in good faith. Eventually negotiator Nikki Schwartz was
brought in. Then three days later the uprising finally ended.
(15:53):
How did you feel when it was over? I mean relieved,
peer could have been over a lot much sona, but
obviously felt relieved. Hassan's relief was short lived. I continue
(16:20):
my conversation with the former m MOM at Lucasville, Sadiq
Abdellah Hassan. So the investigation is led by the Ohio
State Highway Patrol. Talked to me about being interviewed. I
was never interviewed once, not because I refused. They never
even attempt to interview me. They had already said in
a mind that I was going to be used as
(16:41):
a scapegoat. They had already decided to put the point
of thing at me, So I never spoke to them once.
I never refused the speak to them, and they never
made an attempt to speak to me. Hassan says he
was never interviewed by the Ohio State Highway Patrol, so
his name would not be on that list of interviews
they conducted. I check the index, and he's right. Someone
(17:04):
else's name is also not on that list, Jason Rob,
one of the other so called leaders during the uprising.
Jason Rob's name isn't in here either, right. He said
the same thing with him, so I guess mean him
within the same boat, being too leaders, a sports person
doing the uprising, that they had no intention to come
(17:25):
at the top those they're already decide that they was
going to make of the straight goa. James Ware's name
is also nowhere on that list of interviews. He's another
one of the so called Lucasville Five, the five men
sentenced to death for their alleged crimes in the uprising.
So these three guys who have been sentenced to death
(17:46):
were never interviewed by investigators, So many of these interviews
weren't recorded. Why not record him? Why pick and choose
when to record these interviews? Abductive or someone saying something
that you won't here, then you want to play the
recording and make it seem like you just thought him.
But no, you already had a conversation with them Houra
(18:07):
two hours, two days before, and now you want to
you already know what they're going to say, but you're
not going to play something not knowing what they're going
to say. So you only want to receive the information
that is favorable. By the way, George Skates, maybe the
most front and center spokesperson for the prisoners during the uprising,
also currently on death row, was only interviewed twice by investigators,
(18:30):
and neither one of those interviews were recorded. Is it
just me or does that seem strange? What were you
charged with? I was charged with fifteen charges. I can't
remember all them, but I know I was a charge
with two counts of capital murder, one with regard to
Officer landing him another work regards to end a by
(18:52):
the name of Bruce Harris. He was murdered on the
last day the death of surrender. Did you have anything
to do with Officer of Landingham's No, absolutely not. He
was the officer that used to be in mob block.
He was a nice person. In fact, he was the
most nicest one of all the officers there. Hassan says
(19:12):
as he prepared to go to trial, one of the
biggest issues he faced had to do with his representation.
His two original attorneys, Rick Kerger and Charles Boss basically
told the judge that they could not with what time
and money they were allotted, properly represent Hassan In time,
they were replaced with two other attorneys out of Cincinnati.
(19:35):
In January of nineteen ninety six, after two changes of venue,
Hassan goes on trial in Hamilton County, Ohio. And what
was the makeup of your joury? They loved a white
and one black on my jury, a black gay, and
even the state chatter removed him from my case. But
the judge he seems to do so because he no
(19:56):
base on the case. Come out of Kentucky. About all
removing blacks from jury, I would end up probably getting
a reversal. Sounds a bit familiar. Hassen's jury was made
up of eleven whites and one black. Keith's jury was
all white. Then there's something else Hassan brings up that
(20:17):
I know I've heard before alleged issues with exculpatory evidence,
and my child to state that that your honor, we're
not aware of any exculpatory information for this particular defendant.
But the judge say, is not about whether you are
aware or not. You have to go into the rector
fives and see if they have any exculpatory information, because
(20:39):
it come out later on than there is. The dates
can end up being dismissed for lack of revealing this
exculpatory information. So we had another preach r hearing maybe
sixty or ninety days later, and my prosecutor saying, we're honor,
we searched the file and there's no exculportory information. What
physical evidence did they have against you? Absolutely not no
(21:03):
physical evidence. So if there's no physical evidence against you,
what did the state have? I continue my conversation with
(21:26):
Saddiq Abdallah Hassan. So if there's no physical evidence against you,
what did the state have? Self serving or in makes
game testimony more than that took themselves, deflected attention from
themselves in place to blame on myself the fact that
I was the spiritual leader of the Muslims and being
(21:50):
the leader I guess h and there my I becomes
my brother keeper. So they relied on the testimony of E.
In the real snargrass all people who got deals, all
people who got deals rights set. He participated that murders,
he kidnapped guards, and a lot of those cases he
(22:11):
was not charged with. After the devil was charged with
the guards murdered, but he turned state and said what
the state wanted him to say. Anthony Lavelle and Roger
Snodgrass reportedly both took plea bargains and were released from
prison many years ago. I've tried finding both men, but
(22:32):
haven't had any luck. Interestingly enough, though, Roger Snodgrass in
twenty sixteen did participate in the Netflix show Captive Anas
and this I gave up information on guys to the authorities. Right,
It makes no difference to me. If you're judging me,
and you're judging me, you judge you, and anybody else
(22:54):
wants to judge me. For a fine man, judge me
all right, put yourself in my shoes. You know, see
how you handle that situation. I don't think most people
would still have enough mind to be saying. After all
the ship that I've seen and done and been through
in that fucking ride. Yeah, it's I feel man. And
(23:23):
one more thing about Anthony Lavelle. He was allegedly the
leader of the Black Gangster Disciples, one of the three
groups in charge during the uprising. Hassan just said a
minute ago that Lavelle cooperated with the authorities and in
turn got some sort of deal. Well, what I find
curious is that of the five people sitting on death row,
(23:45):
no one from the Black Gangster Disciples is there. How
did that happen? How is it that they are the
only ones of the three groups in charge that managed
to avoid being sent to death row. Could there alleged
participation like Anthony Lavelle's have anything to do with it.
(24:09):
Then there's Kenneth's Law. That's another name you haven't heard before.
He said that myself and James where the one that
actually had the officer murder. I gave James Where the order.
But that's not physical evidence. That's based on hearsay and
the deal they made with Kenneth Law that he must
(24:31):
testify to the truth of his statement. If he deviate
away from his statement, then they was going to reindice him.
They gave him a polygraph test. He failed a polygraph
test polygraph test saying that he was telling a blatant lie,
but number the mess myself and other was convicted based
on his testimony. Did Kenneth Law end up recanting, Yes,
(24:54):
after the fact, But you know recantation as many case
all throughout the United States where people trying to RecA
and the prosecutor with challenge it's saying original statement in
the chimp and the recantation is a lot. But no,
his recantation is not a lot. In an affidavit from
March ninth, two thousand and referring to the trials of
Hassan and James Ware, Kenneth Law said quote, I was
(25:17):
interviewed several times before both trials and was told what
to say. Kenneth Law, who was convicted of kidnapping officer
of the Landingham and pled guilty to conspiracy to commit
murder in his death, is currently still incarcerated at Northeast
Ohio Correctional Center. His next parole hearing is scheduled for
(25:38):
November of twenty twenty five. The trooper didn't know Field Lanham,
and all they was interested in is putting the blame
at the doorsteps of the leaders of people who was
sportsperson trying to bring about a piece of silver in
the uprising. In addition to Officer of the Landingham's murder,
Hassan was also charged with Bruce Harris's murder. Bruce Harris
(26:02):
was believed to have been killed on the last day
of the uprising. Hassan says he didn't kill Bruce Harris,
and on that last day during the surrender, there's proof
of it. There's a video showing myself, Nicky Sports, Jason
rob at Laville as some of the Muslim representative came
(26:23):
from Kamoma's, Ohio, actually on the recreation yard. So once
again the state put on pergy testimony. They allow prisoners
to say that I was president for Bruce Parrish was
being murdered, but when you look at the video, I
was evection on the yard. So I was acquitted of
that particular charge. Hassan was acquitted of killing Bruce Harris
(26:45):
as well as one count of felonious assault. He was
found guilty and sentenced sixty six to ninety five years
for attempted murder, two kidnappings, felonious assault, and robbery. And
as we already know by now he was given the
death penalty for the murder of officer of a landing him.
(27:05):
I reached out to the two prosecutors in Hassan's original trial,
Gerald Crumpleback and Rick Gibson. If Rick Gibson's name sounds familiar,
that's because he was also one of the prosecutors in
Jeffrey Wogenstall's case, which we talked about in episode seven. Anyway,
I reached out to Gibson and Crumpleback to see if
(27:27):
they'd be willing to talk with me about Hassan's case,
but neither of them have responded. Today, some twenty seven
years since Hassan was convicted and sent to death row,
his attorneys are still fighting to get him a new trial.
Hassan says he was granted an evidentiary hearing based on
three claims having to do with ineffective assistance of counsel.
(27:51):
I am eight deals with ineffectives of counsel for failing
to barely investigate my case and call witnesses that could
have testified to my actual innocence or could have challenged
the state case. The other one, claimed now would have
been innocrctisistence of trial counsel for failing to thirdly or
(28:14):
examine the witnesses that the state called to the scene.
And thirty one deals with innosecti assistance a trial counsel
for failing to investigate my upbringing, childhood for the purpose
of medication. And those are just three of the many
claims Hassan is raising. Depending on the outcome of that
(28:36):
evidentiary hearing, Hassan could be granted a new trial. Until then.
Because Hassan's case is still pending, no execution date has
been set, Unlike Keith, who is sentenced to die on
November sixteenth, twenty twenty three, I decide to circle back
to see if Hassan might be open to answering some
(28:58):
questions I still have about Keith. This time I jumped
right in. Did you see him inside L six or
the L block during the uprising in those early minutes
and hours of the uprising? Not that I can recall. No.
Lewis Jones testified at Keith's trial something to the effect of,
(29:19):
like they came inside, you know, early on of the
uprising to check on their belongings. They saw that stuff
was going on, he said. Keith asked for permission to
kill the snitches, and then you know if we can kill.
If we kill the snitches, will you let us go.
Does any of that sound familiar to you at all? No,
(29:44):
I wouldn't. I'm looking not around. I'm not gonna say,
don't not tell you. When they start Skinner's Snitches. I
was in the Boxer's shop, welcome to some brothers, and
that's when some people Muslims came and told me that
they down down into you're putting the niches. Yeah, I
(30:04):
thought the brothers, wok, go go get some of the brothers,
some of the brothers on security and tell them to
meet me down there. And we would talk for about
a minute, and we saw walking and get people heard
we would coming and whoever it was that was the
Nailed six doing the killing, the death squire. What they
became known about whoever they were, They had exited on
their recreation job, so I didn't get to see who
(30:26):
you work, So they were already gone by the time
you made it over to L six and direct. So
when you got to L six and you saw the
people that you wanted put away for safe keeping had
been murdered, what did you think one to know? How
did they get in here? Who know them in? Yeah?
(30:49):
And did you hear any names mentioned about who might
have done these killings? Yeah? I hear a name, but
not that I'm trying to conceal it. They think from
you it would be a hearsay. And I don't have
any courage. I had knowledge only what I hear, right,
you know a lot of people came out and said
(31:09):
Keith was the leader of the death squad. And if
you the imam, you know, was the person who said
these people need to be put away for safekeeping. Who's
Keith to come in and say, well, no, open the cells,
I'm going to kill them. It's just I wonder how
he would have that kind of power, right, Actually, he
(31:30):
wouldn't have their power. Don't awake somebody, I guess we
say have their power or given their power them would
have had to be done through a Muslim. A mustim
the thunderstood someone's order a Muslim from them all say
forgive them? Are they not moving? Mincrofift and found about
being God and allows them in because there were a
(31:52):
Muslim that would actually step guided about why do you
let these guys in? This bob? They just opened the
door for me to go. I'm on the range, so
they let the ports. So I'm getting ready to go
back to myself because I've been at two hours and
an half and just like that, our time is up
and Hussan has to go. I have a few more questions,
(32:15):
so we speak one more time. Do you have any
regrets or is there anything now looking back that you
wish you had done differently? No, because I did everything
that I possibly could. The problem is not within the
Muslims of the problems within the one. So no, I
don't have any regrets. What would you want to say
(32:37):
to the investigators or to the prosecutors who tried your
case for the state. I mean, there's nothing to stay
with him, because more people already made up their mind
to do something because in many cases, especially our profile cases,
prosecutors are not trying to see suggests. They are more
and less trying to do something to boost their political career.
(32:59):
And when you look at that, when it comes to
the Lucas uprising on no prosecutors who have become judge
like Daniel Hogan and he's a judge now for Franklin County.
They have put their kids to college, They are paid
up all their mortgages. Those people doesn't have a conscious,
so there's nothing to really say to them. I mean,
(33:21):
it would be a waste of my breath. Rick Kerger,
one of Hassan's original attorneys who didn't end up trying
his case, was interviewed for D Jones's twenty thirteen documentary
called The Great Incarcerator, and what Rick Kerger said in
it kind of seems to sum it all up. I
(33:42):
don't know what justice is. I mean, God may know
what justice is, but I do know what's fair. Did
we give a fair opportunity for Hassan and the others
to defend themselves and the answers We didn't. There was
a huge thumb on the scales of justice. And if
we can do that to them, then they whoever on
the system, can do it to you and me next
(34:10):
time on the real killer. There's a lot of reasons
for people to be against the death penalty. We take
a hard look at capital punishment in Ohio. You may
be surprised at who's coming together to try and end it. Technically,
you could shoot them or hang them, but I have
a strange feeling the people of Ohio aren't gonna lie either.
(34:42):
Please check out at The Real Killer on Instagram for
some never before seen photos and documents. Also, if you're
so inclined, leave us a five star review. Reviews increase
the odds that other listeners like you will find us.
The Real Killer is a production of AYR Media and iHeartRadio,
(35:06):
hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and
Eliza Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman, Executive
producer Paulina Williams, Senior associate producer Jill Pasheznik, Coordinators George
Famm and Melina Kryski. Editing and sound design by Cameron Taggy.
(35:29):
Mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggy. Audio engineering by Matt Jacobsen.
Studio engineering by Jay Brannon. Legal counsel for AYR Media,
Gianni Douglas. Executive producer for iHeartRadio Maya Howard
A warning. This episode contains language and depictions of violence
that may be disturbing to some listeners. Hello, this is
a prepaid debit call from Sadiq Abdullah Hassan, the Sunni
(00:23):
Muslim leader or imam at Lucasville at the time of
the nineteen ninety three uprising, the uprising during which ten
people were killed and Keith Lamar was sent to death
row for five of them. Thank you for using TTL
and good and good afternoon, Good afternoon. How are you? Oh? Thanks,
(00:45):
consider I'm good. Hassan, formerly known as Carlos Sanders, was
convicted of various crimes that took place during the uprising
and sentenced to death for his alleged role in the
murder of Officer Robert for Landingham. Hassan calls me from
death row at the Ohio State Penitentiary, the same prison
(01:05):
where Keith is. Thankfully, Hassan has agreed to speak with
me about his story, his uprising, his case. I need
to learn more about what happened back in nineteen ninety
three from the man who was at the very center
of it all. Is what transpired during those eleven brutal days,
(01:26):
what he intended. Are there any similarities in the investigation
and prosecution of his case and Keith's, and does he
have any insight into whether or not Keith was the
actual leader of the so called death squad. I don't
want to use all of your time today so to
decide for this purpose, I'm Leah Rothman. This is the
(02:02):
Real Killer, Episode nine, The Scapegoat. I asked Keith a
while back if he and Hassan, or he and any
of the others from Lucasville who are housed at the
Ohio State Penitentiary talk about their cases, compare notes, try
(02:26):
to help each other. He said, no, there's an unwritten
rule about it. It's just not something you do. It's
not something you talk about. So I have no idea
how Hassan will react when I ask him about Keith,
if he'll shut me down or be open to talking.
So at first I decide to tread lightly. Did you
(02:50):
know him before the uprising? Yeah? And no, not know
him personally. I've seen him fight in the box room
range because I used to boxing right one day yards
in the boxing ring. At another time, I was welcome
with some Muslims. Who is going to trial, recreation job
or somewhere and he had locks of some rosaries around
(03:11):
his neck or some knees, and some of them fell off,
and he became discouraged and sicklemof and I was like,
oh man, I'll say, oh no, I'm gonna become discouraged.
To pick him up, put him back home, you know,
for me and some of the other Muslim pick him
up and gave him time and what the riot happened
(03:31):
and we end up on death row together. I brought
that up to him, and he remembered that I planned
to come back to the subject of Keith a bit
later today. Hassan is sixty born and raised in Georgia.
In nineteen seventy eight, at age fifteen, he was sent
to a juvenile detention center for aggravated assault with intent
(03:52):
to rob He says while he was there he escaped,
so for that he was tried as an adult and
transferred to prison. Eventually, he was released and moved to
Ohio in nineteen eighty three. The next year, Hassan was
convicted of aggravated robbery and sentenced thirteen to twenty five years.
In April of nineteen eighty eight, at the age of
(04:14):
twenty five, he was transferred to Lucasville. Lucasville, it was
very loud. People would be thrown yurine pieces, bodily races
on one another, thorn scolding coffee on one another faces.
It was like like okay, care it was. It was
(04:38):
just a wild environment. There was a lot of stabbing
and murdering going on an institution, a lot of racism.
There was a few black prisoners that were murdered by
staff numbers. Can you tell me a little bit about
how Warden Tate ran the prison? Okay, yes, Alka Kate
Junior also known as king Off. The sent him there
(05:00):
and his job was to straighten out the problem. And
not only was prisoners, but even with staff numbers. Staff
number had become accustomed to a certain culture and take.
When he came, he didn't care who told that. He
actually stepped on whether you were the inmate or whether
you was a officer or a staff number. His position
was this institution gonna be running my way or you
(05:22):
could hit the otway. And how did you become the
imm at Lucasville. My predecessor made his intention that he
was going to step down from being the iman, which
would be the spiritual leader and head of the Muslim community,
and he said that he was hand picking me to
(05:44):
be his professor. That must have felt great that you
were chosen. No, absolutely, not to the contrary. I know
because a lot of prisoners who had a very aggressive
and assaulted type behavior, they was now being trying and
for to Lucasviere and older people in Lucasville was now
being moved out. So Lucasville used to be very violent,
(06:08):
an abuse of type environment, but now you got a
lot of young people came in and it's increased tremendously.
So contrary to the popular opinion, No, I was not
pleased to be appointed, but reluctantly I did accept the
position of becoming dispirit ahead for the Muslims before the uprising,
where were you housed? I was an honor block, and
(06:32):
you have to be a person that out of trouble.
You can't be getting in trouble to be an honor block.
So I became more or less amount of prisoner staying
out of trouble, good work performance and behavior, and being
enrolled in the academical school you get a good time credit.
I was one year away from the parole board at
the time of the uprising. In episode two, we talked
(06:57):
a lot about what happened in the days leading up
to the uprising, specifically in regard to the TB test
Warden Arthur Tate planned to administer to those one hundred
and fifty nine men who had previously refused it. The
Muslim community believed the test, which contained phenol, was a
form of alcohol, and for them being forced to consume
(07:18):
alcohol was a violation of Islamic law and their religious freedoms.
So the Muslim prisoners, led by Hassan, stood their ground.
So did Warden Tate. Almost kind of him that just
because the person comes to prison and adore the gates
are actually closed behind him, that there's not fought for
(07:40):
prisoners of their constitutional right. If you can use some
other method that the upset pasury if for your analysis
would suffice, If that will work, I mean we would
find him affect. His position was he was not going
to allow prisoners, in this particular case Muslims to dictate
to him. Are you run the institution? On Easter Sunday,
(08:02):
April eleventh, the Muslim prisoners were determined to show Warden
Tate who actually ran his institution, but Hassan says things
did not go as planned. What you're about to hear
is Hassan's behind the prison wall account of what he
says happened. There was another intended to be an uprising,
(08:28):
or if some people love to say, all right, to
begin with, it's supposed to be a peaceful protest, you know,
because opposition was coming in here institute knowledge rules. We
felt if we could take over a certain place of
the portion of the prison or one particular Bob and
barricade ourselson and try to get the attention of the
(08:49):
media and his superior in central office, that we can
try to resolve the matter. The plans for it to
be a non violent protest, right, But in order to
barricade yourselves like you had to, like you got to
get the guards out of there, right, So was that
part of the plan? I mean, because I think the
first thing that people on the yard saw was like
a guard running out with blood running down his head.
(09:10):
I mean, you guys had to get control in order
to barricade yourselves in, right, absolutely. And you know there
are some people who may be submissive and some people
who wouldn't be submissive. I can't say because I was
not part of why this particularly, I don't know if
it was one of the people who initially took over
of the area or just somebody seeing the opportunity that
(09:33):
these officers are losing they post and just took opportunity
to attack an officer. I don't know what the circumstances were,
but yes, everyone knows that you have to have bargaining ships,
and you have no bargaining ships. Why would they allow
you to just barricade yourself there if you've got something
to negotiate with, So yes, people would obviously know that
(09:57):
piece would take in the officer hostice and and and
trying to use them as bargaining ships to achieve your objectives.
So the hostages that were taken there were I think
twelve initially, but then some were released. And then because
like I said, nobody wanted to see any hostage or
(10:17):
anyone being harmed, so when people were asked when the
guards was harmed, they released them without any strange attached.
They didn't ask for anything for it. They wanted them
to get medical attention immediately. So yes, one of the
things they did we did was released false hostages. From
the beginning, what was intended to be a peaceful protest
and turned into a full scale rebellion. Hastin says his
(10:41):
peaceful protest was hijacked, the result a full scale rebellion.
There was a group of people they became known and
transciss and stuff. I've read at the death Squad. They
was gone around filling people doing the nite a part
of the uprising. Tell me if I've got this right
(11:04):
or not. But I read that you wanted to put
these people who were alleged snitches in cells, locked in
cells for their own safety. Is that true? Yes, In
the beginning, when people were talking about killing the snitches,
killing the snitches, like killing all the Homosexes, you're gonna
have bodies all over this place. No, if you feel
(11:27):
they snitches and you're concerned about them seeing you do something,
but just lock them up and they sail and they can't.
They won't be running around their institutions. So people was
being locked up in l six for their protection, you know.
So that's that's the moment that you're talking about. But
then when I left from this area and went to
the bobby shop and was talking to some Muslims, because
(11:49):
about forty five minutes an hour, so then you know
they're not they're killing the snitches. So the plan is
for this non violent protest. When you see what is unfolding,
I mean, were you freaking out? I mean because if
it wasn't what you wanted right, And then all of
the brothers told me said, man, you need to saida
(12:11):
you might having a panic attack. One of the Muslim
brothers comings and his over security and he appointed some
of the brothers to take me in the room and
let me realize. He says, look, we got this, just
go relax of few minutes. Man, they're like, keep having
a panic attack. So if that's what you mean by
freaking out, then yes, I said, hold on, go get
some of the brothers. Don't get some of the brothers
own security and tell him out to meet me back
(12:31):
in the Bobby shop. So they met Beckam. The bobby
shop is about fifteen twenty Muslims. They had all different
types of weapons as federer and we was on our
way going toward L six some kind of way. The
people that burn down they murdering. The people in L
six had heard that we was coming and they ran
out on the reclaration yard. And when I came on
myself and other Muslim came into L six. We've seen
(12:55):
people and people was gagging for air, and I told
people to get him off and get some of these
other guys out. So they took them and took them
to the reparation yard, and some of them actually survived.
Three men survived their beatings, Andrey Stockton was one of them.
You met him in the last episode. The rest of
the death Squad's victims and L six did not survive.
(13:16):
And what happened was people were saying that the majority
of the people that was killed was white. For now
white a sense of fear as if it was a
racial thing, and we knew it was not racial. It
would never intended to be a right uprising to begin with,
and everything was real jedery and people were feeling uncomfortable.
So I think uprising or happened round three o'clock a
(13:39):
coast to three o'clock, so maybe by eight thirty then
they coming. He got on the bullhun and said, look,
we're getting ready to say our prayers, and we asked
that y'all be hold down the noise, so give us
the respect that we would give y'all. And while we
say our prayers, and after we got who standing, Commons
(14:01):
got on the bullhorn again and he said that if
anybody Kristen, Jews or whatever your religious nomination is, y'all
want to come down here and pray, y'all can come
down here in the same error that we use and pray.
And he also requested that they give the other people
that came down the same respect that they gave the
(14:23):
Muslim being quiet while they're praying. And that was like
the ice and on the cake that broke up a
lot of detention. From that point on, the three main
groups previous enemies, remember, the Sunni Muslims, the Aryan Brotherhood,
and the Black gangster disciples put their differences aside and
formed a common bond with each other against the prison administration.
(14:45):
So as the days are dragging on, what are you thinking?
I didn't think it was going well. I think the
prison authorities with trying they darn best in their mind
for good reasons to use stall characters, trying to get
their officers back without having to give up a whole lot,
(15:07):
and prisoners was not willing to do that because we
understood if there was no hostages, they would have thrown
the place long comic goal and people would have been
murdered and seriously injured, and it was not going to
will Then, as we know by now, things took a
major turn on Thursday the fifteenth. How did things change
(15:31):
after the Landingham was killed? Once the Landingham body was
placed on the recreation yard a kind of speed up
the process. The prison authorities knocked stot trying to operate
or negotiate in good faith. Eventually negotiator Nikki Schwartz was
brought in. Then three days later the uprising finally ended.
(15:53):
How did you feel when it was over? I mean relieved,
peer could have been over a lot much sona, but
obviously felt relieved. Hassan's relief was short lived. I continue
(16:20):
my conversation with the former m MOM at Lucasville, Sadiq
Abdellah Hassan. So the investigation is led by the Ohio
State Highway Patrol. Talked to me about being interviewed. I
was never interviewed once, not because I refused. They never
even attempt to interview me. They had already said in
a mind that I was going to be used as
(16:41):
a scapegoat. They had already decided to put the point
of thing at me, So I never spoke to them once.
I never refused the speak to them, and they never
made an attempt to speak to me. Hassan says he
was never interviewed by the Ohio State Highway Patrol, so
his name would not be on that list of interviews
they conducted. I check the index, and he's right. Someone
(17:04):
else's name is also not on that list, Jason Rob,
one of the other so called leaders during the uprising.
Jason Rob's name isn't in here either, right. He said
the same thing with him, so I guess mean him
within the same boat, being too leaders, a sports person
doing the uprising, that they had no intention to come
(17:25):
at the top those they're already decide that they was
going to make of the straight goa. James Ware's name
is also nowhere on that list of interviews. He's another
one of the so called Lucasville Five, the five men
sentenced to death for their alleged crimes in the uprising.
So these three guys who have been sentenced to death
(17:46):
were never interviewed by investigators, So many of these interviews
weren't recorded. Why not record him? Why pick and choose
when to record these interviews? Abductive or someone saying something
that you won't here, then you want to play the
recording and make it seem like you just thought him.
But no, you already had a conversation with them Houra
(18:07):
two hours, two days before, and now you want to
you already know what they're going to say, but you're
not going to play something not knowing what they're going
to say. So you only want to receive the information
that is favorable. By the way, George Skates, maybe the
most front and center spokesperson for the prisoners during the uprising,
also currently on death row, was only interviewed twice by investigators,
(18:30):
and neither one of those interviews were recorded. Is it
just me or does that seem strange? What were you
charged with? I was charged with fifteen charges. I can't
remember all them, but I know I was a charge
with two counts of capital murder, one with regard to
Officer landing him another work regards to end a by
(18:52):
the name of Bruce Harris. He was murdered on the
last day the death of surrender. Did you have anything
to do with Officer of Landingham's No, absolutely not. He
was the officer that used to be in mob block.
He was a nice person. In fact, he was the
most nicest one of all the officers there. Hassan says
(19:12):
as he prepared to go to trial, one of the
biggest issues he faced had to do with his representation.
His two original attorneys, Rick Kerger and Charles Boss basically
told the judge that they could not with what time
and money they were allotted, properly represent Hassan In time,
they were replaced with two other attorneys out of Cincinnati.
(19:35):
In January of nineteen ninety six, after two changes of venue,
Hassan goes on trial in Hamilton County, Ohio. And what
was the makeup of your joury? They loved a white
and one black on my jury, a black gay, and
even the state chatter removed him from my case. But
the judge he seems to do so because he no
(19:56):
base on the case. Come out of Kentucky. About all
removing blacks from jury, I would end up probably getting
a reversal. Sounds a bit familiar. Hassen's jury was made
up of eleven whites and one black. Keith's jury was
all white. Then there's something else Hassan brings up that
(20:17):
I know I've heard before alleged issues with exculpatory evidence,
and my child to state that that your honor, we're
not aware of any exculpatory information for this particular defendant.
But the judge say, is not about whether you are
aware or not. You have to go into the rector
fives and see if they have any exculpatory information, because
(20:39):
it come out later on than there is. The dates
can end up being dismissed for lack of revealing this
exculpatory information. So we had another preach r hearing maybe
sixty or ninety days later, and my prosecutor saying, we're honor,
we searched the file and there's no exculportory information. What
physical evidence did they have against you? Absolutely not no
(21:03):
physical evidence. So if there's no physical evidence against you,
what did the state have? I continue my conversation with
(21:26):
Saddiq Abdallah Hassan. So if there's no physical evidence against you,
what did the state have? Self serving or in makes
game testimony more than that took themselves, deflected attention from
themselves in place to blame on myself the fact that
I was the spiritual leader of the Muslims and being
(21:50):
the leader I guess h and there my I becomes
my brother keeper. So they relied on the testimony of E.
In the real snargrass all people who got deals, all
people who got deals rights set. He participated that murders,
he kidnapped guards, and a lot of those cases he
(22:11):
was not charged with. After the devil was charged with
the guards murdered, but he turned state and said what
the state wanted him to say. Anthony Lavelle and Roger
Snodgrass reportedly both took plea bargains and were released from
prison many years ago. I've tried finding both men, but
(22:32):
haven't had any luck. Interestingly enough, though, Roger Snodgrass in
twenty sixteen did participate in the Netflix show Captive Anas
and this I gave up information on guys to the authorities. Right,
It makes no difference to me. If you're judging me,
and you're judging me, you judge you, and anybody else
(22:54):
wants to judge me. For a fine man, judge me
all right, put yourself in my shoes. You know, see
how you handle that situation. I don't think most people
would still have enough mind to be saying. After all
the ship that I've seen and done and been through
in that fucking ride. Yeah, it's I feel man. And
(23:23):
one more thing about Anthony Lavelle. He was allegedly the
leader of the Black Gangster Disciples, one of the three
groups in charge during the uprising. Hassan just said a
minute ago that Lavelle cooperated with the authorities and in
turn got some sort of deal. Well, what I find
curious is that of the five people sitting on death row,
(23:45):
no one from the Black Gangster Disciples is there. How
did that happen? How is it that they are the
only ones of the three groups in charge that managed
to avoid being sent to death row. Could there alleged
participation like Anthony Lavelle's have anything to do with it.
(24:09):
Then there's Kenneth's Law. That's another name you haven't heard before.
He said that myself and James where the one that
actually had the officer murder. I gave James Where the order.
But that's not physical evidence. That's based on hearsay and
the deal they made with Kenneth Law that he must
(24:31):
testify to the truth of his statement. If he deviate
away from his statement, then they was going to reindice him.
They gave him a polygraph test. He failed a polygraph
test polygraph test saying that he was telling a blatant lie,
but number the mess myself and other was convicted based
on his testimony. Did Kenneth Law end up recanting, Yes,
(24:54):
after the fact, But you know recantation as many case
all throughout the United States where people trying to RecA
and the prosecutor with challenge it's saying original statement in
the chimp and the recantation is a lot. But no,
his recantation is not a lot. In an affidavit from
March ninth, two thousand and referring to the trials of
Hassan and James Ware, Kenneth Law said quote, I was
(25:17):
interviewed several times before both trials and was told what
to say. Kenneth Law, who was convicted of kidnapping officer
of the Landingham and pled guilty to conspiracy to commit
murder in his death, is currently still incarcerated at Northeast
Ohio Correctional Center. His next parole hearing is scheduled for
(25:38):
November of twenty twenty five. The trooper didn't know Field Lanham,
and all they was interested in is putting the blame
at the doorsteps of the leaders of people who was
sportsperson trying to bring about a piece of silver in
the uprising. In addition to Officer of the Landingham's murder,
Hassan was also charged with Bruce Harris's murder. Bruce Harris
(26:02):
was believed to have been killed on the last day
of the uprising. Hassan says he didn't kill Bruce Harris,
and on that last day during the surrender, there's proof
of it. There's a video showing myself, Nicky Sports, Jason
rob at Laville as some of the Muslim representative came
(26:23):
from Kamoma's, Ohio, actually on the recreation yard. So once
again the state put on pergy testimony. They allow prisoners
to say that I was president for Bruce Parrish was
being murdered, but when you look at the video, I
was evection on the yard. So I was acquitted of
that particular charge. Hassan was acquitted of killing Bruce Harris
(26:45):
as well as one count of felonious assault. He was
found guilty and sentenced sixty six to ninety five years
for attempted murder, two kidnappings, felonious assault, and robbery. And
as we already know by now he was given the
death penalty for the murder of officer of a landing him.
(27:05):
I reached out to the two prosecutors in Hassan's original trial,
Gerald Crumpleback and Rick Gibson. If Rick Gibson's name sounds familiar,
that's because he was also one of the prosecutors in
Jeffrey Wogenstall's case, which we talked about in episode seven. Anyway,
I reached out to Gibson and Crumpleback to see if
(27:27):
they'd be willing to talk with me about Hassan's case,
but neither of them have responded. Today, some twenty seven
years since Hassan was convicted and sent to death row,
his attorneys are still fighting to get him a new trial.
Hassan says he was granted an evidentiary hearing based on
three claims having to do with ineffective assistance of counsel.
(27:51):
I am eight deals with ineffectives of counsel for failing
to barely investigate my case and call witnesses that could
have testified to my actual innocence or could have challenged
the state case. The other one, claimed now would have
been innocrctisistence of trial counsel for failing to thirdly or
(28:14):
examine the witnesses that the state called to the scene.
And thirty one deals with innosecti assistance a trial counsel
for failing to investigate my upbringing, childhood for the purpose
of medication. And those are just three of the many
claims Hassan is raising. Depending on the outcome of that
(28:36):
evidentiary hearing, Hassan could be granted a new trial. Until then.
Because Hassan's case is still pending, no execution date has
been set, Unlike Keith, who is sentenced to die on
November sixteenth, twenty twenty three, I decide to circle back
to see if Hassan might be open to answering some
(28:58):
questions I still have about Keith. This time I jumped
right in. Did you see him inside L six or
the L block during the uprising in those early minutes
and hours of the uprising? Not that I can recall. No.
Lewis Jones testified at Keith's trial something to the effect of,
(29:19):
like they came inside, you know, early on of the
uprising to check on their belongings. They saw that stuff
was going on, he said. Keith asked for permission to
kill the snitches, and then you know if we can kill.
If we kill the snitches, will you let us go.
Does any of that sound familiar to you at all? No,
(29:44):
I wouldn't. I'm looking not around. I'm not gonna say,
don't not tell you. When they start Skinner's Snitches. I
was in the Boxer's shop, welcome to some brothers, and
that's when some people Muslims came and told me that
they down down into you're putting the niches. Yeah, I
(30:04):
thought the brothers, wok, go go get some of the brothers,
some of the brothers on security and tell them to
meet me down there. And we would talk for about
a minute, and we saw walking and get people heard
we would coming and whoever it was that was the
Nailed six doing the killing, the death squire. What they
became known about whoever they were, They had exited on
their recreation job, so I didn't get to see who
(30:26):
you work, So they were already gone by the time
you made it over to L six and direct. So
when you got to L six and you saw the
people that you wanted put away for safe keeping had
been murdered, what did you think one to know? How
did they get in here? Who know them in? Yeah?
(30:49):
And did you hear any names mentioned about who might
have done these killings? Yeah? I hear a name, but
not that I'm trying to conceal it. They think from
you it would be a hearsay. And I don't have
any courage. I had knowledge only what I hear, right,
you know a lot of people came out and said
(31:09):
Keith was the leader of the death squad. And if
you the imam, you know, was the person who said
these people need to be put away for safekeeping. Who's
Keith to come in and say, well, no, open the cells,
I'm going to kill them. It's just I wonder how
he would have that kind of power, right, Actually, he
(31:30):
wouldn't have their power. Don't awake somebody, I guess we
say have their power or given their power them would
have had to be done through a Muslim. A mustim
the thunderstood someone's order a Muslim from them all say
forgive them? Are they not moving? Mincrofift and found about
being God and allows them in because there were a
(31:52):
Muslim that would actually step guided about why do you
let these guys in? This bob? They just opened the
door for me to go. I'm on the range, so
they let the ports. So I'm getting ready to go
back to myself because I've been at two hours and
an half and just like that, our time is up
and Hussan has to go. I have a few more questions,
(32:15):
so we speak one more time. Do you have any
regrets or is there anything now looking back that you
wish you had done differently? No, because I did everything
that I possibly could. The problem is not within the
Muslims of the problems within the one. So no, I
don't have any regrets. What would you want to say
(32:37):
to the investigators or to the prosecutors who tried your
case for the state. I mean, there's nothing to stay
with him, because more people already made up their mind
to do something because in many cases, especially our profile cases,
prosecutors are not trying to see suggests. They are more
and less trying to do something to boost their political career.
(32:59):
And when you look at that, when it comes to
the Lucas uprising on no prosecutors who have become judge
like Daniel Hogan and he's a judge now for Franklin County.
They have put their kids to college, They are paid
up all their mortgages. Those people doesn't have a conscious,
so there's nothing to really say to them. I mean,
(33:21):
it would be a waste of my breath. Rick Kerger,
one of Hassan's original attorneys who didn't end up trying
his case, was interviewed for D Jones's twenty thirteen documentary
called The Great Incarcerator, and what Rick Kerger said in
it kind of seems to sum it all up. I
(33:42):
don't know what justice is. I mean, God may know
what justice is, but I do know what's fair. Did
we give a fair opportunity for Hassan and the others
to defend themselves and the answers We didn't. There was
a huge thumb on the scales of justice. And if
we can do that to them, then they whoever on
the system, can do it to you and me next
(34:10):
time on the real killer. There's a lot of reasons
for people to be against the death penalty. We take
a hard look at capital punishment in Ohio. You may
be surprised at who's coming together to try and end it. Technically,
you could shoot them or hang them, but I have
a strange feeling the people of Ohio aren't gonna lie either.
(34:42):
Please check out at The Real Killer on Instagram for
some never before seen photos and documents. Also, if you're
so inclined, leave us a five star review. Reviews increase
the odds that other listeners like you will find us.
The Real Killer is a production of AYR Media and iHeartRadio,
(35:06):
hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and
Eliza Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman, Executive
producer Paulina Williams, Senior associate producer Jill Pasheznik, Coordinators George
Famm and Melina Kryski. Editing and sound design by Cameron Taggy.
(35:29):
Mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggy. Audio engineering by Matt Jacobsen.
Studio engineering by Jay Brannon. Legal counsel for AYR Media,
Gianni Douglas. Executive producer for iHeartRadio Maya Howard
Host
Leah Rothman
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