April 20, 2023 • 60 mins
As Keith LaMar’s execution date fast approaches, support pours in from near and far. Will it be enough to save him?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey man, Hey Leah.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
I'm well, how are you?
Speaker 1 (00:05):
I'm pretty good.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
I listened to the podcast I speak with Keith just
hours after the first two episodes drop.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
You only you know how it's going in But even
though I you know, I also know you know where
it's going, I'm still sitting on the edge of my seat,
on the edge of the tarnet. Who knows whether or
not it's gonna make a difference in terms of the
outcome of my own personal individual situation. But what you
are doing by excavating, going back in and digging through
(00:41):
the debris that was left behind and bringing that to surface.
You you you ribbing people the other other excuse to
say that we didn't know. But at the same time,
you know, you going into some real dark place and
you know I was there and my heart beating meal
fast after we're going through the music. It's real. It's
(01:02):
it's spokey, man, you know what I mean. I mean
it is, It's really something. And you know, of course
I don't like hearing about my former self in the light.
You know, you know, I'm ashamed, you know stood to
watch this man, you know be you know it's twenty
three though you know, and that was thirty years ago.
(01:22):
You know, I was twenty three years old, and you know,
just froze.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Keith is referring to watching the murder of Dennis Weaver
in that KVE block cell.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
It's hard to see yourself, but it happened. It's real,
It's real. And you know, as I said at the outset,
you know, as long as you after the truth, you
know you are now we're not gonna have this problems,
you know, And so you know I still feel that,
and so I'm just waiting on the next episode.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
I'm Leah Rothman. This is the Real Killer Episode eleven.
I hear the fire trucks coming.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
When is the next episode coming out?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Next Thursday?
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Oh? Every Thursday. Hun you gotta wait a hole wait.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Not long after this conversation, in February twenty twenty three,
things in Keith's world take a major turn. He goes
on a hunger strike to protest some rights which he
says had been stripped from him, and to get ahead
of it before even more are taken away. As we
know by now, this isn't Keith's first hunger strike.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I was a home strike this time for I think
eight or nine days, and it's a cruising process, especially
as a city three yoh. You know, one of the
things that I was protesting also with the sact that
I was being raft in the visiting room. My campaign
has elevated somewhat in over the past couple of years,
and that you know, we are receiving more publicity, there's
(03:11):
more things happen and bring the more scrutiny to the
Luisville prosecutions. And there's been you know, aggivation obviously from
the state about that, and it's just been a constant
low grade antagonisms, as I call them, like death five
thousand cuts all meant to kind of you know, lure
(03:31):
you into overreaction and then you know, they can take
the phone from you, they can take the business, and
all those things directly affect my participation in my campaign. Yeah.
After the Real Killer came out on the sixteenth of February,
I went on a visit on the seventeenth. When I
came back, mysell had been ransacked and that was really
(03:52):
the kind of the straw for me.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
A few days into the hunger strike, Keith is put
into solitary confinement, also known as the whole.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
You know, the thing that I found most like, surprising
them by the whole thing. So I hadn't been in
the hole in over a decade or so, and so
I haven't been exposed to the average prisoners down here,
the young guys, the guys who haven't yet acquired to
resources mental, emotional, financials to really navigate this difficult situation.
(04:24):
And I had been away from that type of struggle
for a long time. I've been here for twenty five years,
so of course I have adjusted. You know, I went
into this sale and it was writing graffiti.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
All on the walls.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
You no, guys that are different degrees of distress, writing
SOS messages out on the wall. The mirror was crashed out.
These guys they smoking this drug called toned fenmerally some
taller paper or paper with some rope spray on it.
And these kids, all they are they talk about is massive.
(05:01):
You know, I'm fifty three years old, them sitting back.
I'm listening. It's weird ass shit, you know, even talking
about hours. Man, they're just talking about their penises, you
know what I mean. But that's a reduction. That's how
you've been reduced to, you know what I mean. You know,
my first day in the hole, I stood at my
door for two hours talking to young guys about how
to equip themselves, about different books I've read that helped
(05:24):
me along the way. I think I was back in
the hole for like five or six days, and then
they moved me down to the infirmary, which is like
the you know, obvious the end of the spectrum in
terms of, you know, the noise and craziness of the hole,
the chaos of the hole. The infirmary was just this
real crenth, the walls well painted white, no graffiti, real antiseptic,
(05:48):
you know, bed in the middle of the room. And
so I was able then to kind of reflect on
what I had just went through.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
It's there.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Keith listens to aisode four and he has a big
reaction to what he heard Judge Crow say. Here's a
clip from that episode. Did you, in your years of
being a judge have a certain reputation?
Speaker 5 (06:12):
Yeah, I kind of did.
Speaker 6 (06:15):
I actually had a song about me if I I
should have looked it up. I've got to play it
for you, hanging Judge pro That's that was the song,
and that was a reputation among most of the attorneys.
I knew. I was a strong advocate for law enforcement.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Hanging judge crow like hanging people or what.
Speaker 6 (06:42):
Would Yeah, it was a comedy type song friend of
mine route.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
It was interesting him and Judge Crowe speak so openly,
candidly about his reputation a linking judge or hanging judge.
I he didn't really have any awareness of what he
was saying. Now here we are really talking about the
case that was you know, you know, steeped and racism
(07:11):
and all white jewelry. I'm the only black person then,
and he, you know, taking pride in being you know,
the lyngend judge and what I'm saying that you know,
I didn't get I didn't receive a fair trial. There
was no way I can receive a fair trial with
the team that they are symbol. I'm talking about the judge,
the prosecutor, not just in my case, but you know
in other guy's cases. And that's the problem with the system.
(07:32):
It's not the constitution, it's not the the statutes. All
those things. If applied properly, I think you can get
close to, uh, what justice really is. It's human beings
that that that that prevent that process from happening. You know,
when Colin Kaipernac took a knee. All those people was,
you know, so up in arms and bout it. Those
(07:53):
are very very people who sit on juries who you know,
don't you require any evidence to sensusbody is a death.
So it's not that the system itself is broken. I'm
talking about the Constitution and how it was written. That
was the ideal, though no ideals are just abstractions. In
two human beings actually do the thing that they say
that they carry through. I think Seth Tiger and all
(08:16):
of them, not just with my case, but with all
the cases that I'm not coming back to bear will
say something about their collective legacy what they did over
the past three decades of running the Hamilton County Prosecutor's office.
You know, I think the legacy would we want to
racism towards black men in particular and putting people on
death row, you know, I think that would be the
(08:38):
legacy of Ahimer County prosecuting in the office.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
I had hoped the prosecutors in Keith's case, Seth Tiger,
Bill Anderson, and Special Prosecutor Mark Petemeyer, would have agreed
at some point to speak with me, but they never did.
They weren't the only ones. Keith's federal defenders who have
been representing him for the last several years were helpful
(09:04):
by providing me some documents and answering some questions via
email and over the phone, But in terms of sitting
down for an interview, no, it never happened. And I'm
sure they're busy. It's no secret that public defenders are
overworked with heavy caseloads. But still it's strange. In fact,
(09:27):
it's the first time in all of my years dealing
with something like this. I mean, attorneys usually jump at
the chance to defend their client from time to time.
I would ask Keith about it, and naturally he'd get angry.
He suspected they didn't want to be interviewed because they
weren't actually doing anything on the case, and admitting that
(09:47):
out loud might not look great for them. It's something
he's actually called them out on in the past.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
I think you wanted now my time. This is four
years out, four years ago. I said. Now, I don't
blame you for doing that, but I want you to
know how I feel the body. I feel like this
is a legal leging that I'm undergoing, and that you
are just as responsible putting a noose around my neck
(10:16):
as the people who are kid to hang me for
a tree.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
As of early twenty twenty three, there is nothing officially
happening in Keith's case, and his execution date is just
seven months away. Back in twenty fifteen, the Sixth Circuit
upheld the lower Court's decision, keeping Keith's conviction and death
sentence in place. In April of twenty sixteen, the US
(10:48):
Supreme Court refused to hear Keith's case. In twenty seventeen
and twenty eighteen, motions for relief were filed, but all
were denied. Then, in December of twenty eight teen, Keith's
execution date.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Was set by the way.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
It was Special Prosecutor Mark Petemeyer who asked the court
to set the date. Fast forward to March of twenty twenty,
and the world comes to a screeching halt. COVID nineteen
hits were thrust into a pandemic, and stay at home
orders are issued. Just days into the official lockdown, Keith
(11:29):
is interviewed by Mother Jones, where he shares some tips
on how to survive in isolation after his At that point,
twenty seven years of living in solitary confinement. The article
gets the attention of many, which causes a chain reaction
resulting in a lot of new support for Keith.
Speaker 7 (11:52):
I'm Brian Jackson. I am a musician.
Speaker 8 (11:54):
I'm one half the duo of Gil Scott Heron and
Brian Jackson. We recorded out eight or nine albums together
in the seventies. Our focus was on consciousness, on social consciousness,
and we basically tried to emulate patterns that that we
(12:17):
you know, that that we understood from some of our
greatest influences, people like James Baldwin, people like Langston Hughes,
musical heroes like John Coltrane and Billie Holliday and Miles Davis.
Initially the concept was to to try and and market
(12:38):
our ideas the way Wall Street marketed burgers, you know,
so to use popular music of the day, which was
was our music, which was black music, to to market
instead of burgers to market.
Speaker 7 (12:52):
Revolutionary thought.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
After Brian's wife reads the Mother Jones article, she he
gets Keith's book Condemned and tells Brian he must read it.
But Brian's not ready. The country's in turmoil, and it's
not just because of the pandemic. NBC Nightly News reports.
Speaker 9 (13:13):
In Minneapolis tonight, tensions are high as four police officers
have been fired after a man was pinned to the
ground and died.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
The incident was caught on camera.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
May twenty twenty, George Floyd is murdered by Minneapolis police
officer Derek Chauvin, and people have taken to the streets
in protest about yet another unarmed black man killed by police.
Speaker 7 (13:46):
That's the lego.
Speaker 8 (13:47):
Just overwhelmed by everything, and I said, I'm going to
read it, but I need, you know, I need some time.
Speaker 7 (13:54):
And she said, no, you have to read this now.
Speaker 8 (13:58):
Twenty four hours later, I put the book on the
table and I looked at her and I said, we
have to do something.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
When Brian and Keith finally speak, their connection is undeniable,
and it's not just their shared love of jazz that
solidifies it.
Speaker 8 (14:18):
And I hit it off like immediately, immediately, as though
we had been best friends for twenty years already. It
was almost as if we had some bond that was
just waiting to be recognized.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Brian decides he wants to do a podcast and he
wants Keith to be.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
His co host.
Speaker 7 (14:39):
Hi I'm Brian Jackson.
Speaker 8 (14:42):
This podcast is about music, justice and everything in between.
Speaker 7 (14:47):
This is Pieces of a Man.
Speaker 8 (14:52):
Thank you Keith, and I just want to say how
happy I am that we finally got this podcast off
the ground. Are you doing I'm doing good, brother, happy
have you here to help me co host this first
episode of Pieces of a Man. So why don't we
get right on into ith.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
H What are some of the topics that you discuss.
Speaker 8 (15:15):
I think one of my favorite episodes has to do
with agency, and it's because it's something that we all
wrestle with, uh in this in this time period, in
this in this where we are right now in our
in our history, and we've come to depend on so
(15:36):
many agents to do the things that that we once
had to do for ourselves.
Speaker 7 (15:41):
You know. We we've allowed the.
Speaker 8 (15:43):
Media to to to tell us how to think about
something worse, to tell us how to feel about things.
We allow people to decide what we will, we will eat,
we will, We allow corporations to tell us what we
should uh, how we should communicate. We we really have
(16:05):
given the majority of our of our free free will
over to others. And so when we get in trouble
or when we are unhappy. We expect someone to come
along and fix that, and in reality, no one's going
to come.
Speaker 7 (16:23):
No one's going to come and fix that.
Speaker 8 (16:24):
No one's going to come and tell you how to
find fulfillment in your life. And I think this is
Keith being in the situation that he was in uh
And and having no one there to do anything on
his behalf, you know. I think he got to the
(16:46):
realization that it was something that he had to do himself.
And first of all, you have to decide, and one
of the biggest decisions that he made was, I want
to be able to touch my family. I want to
be able to touch the people I love. I want
to be able to give them hugs and kisses, you know,
I want to be able to hold their hands. And
(17:07):
this is something that that the prison system was not
allowing him to do. And he protests, he protested, he petitioned,
he did everything that he possibly could, and none of
those things had worked. And finally he decided that he
would go on a hunger strike, and within twelve days,
the decision was made to allow the inmates to to
(17:30):
have contact, you know, to have full contact visits with
their with their family members. Something that had taken years,
was never accomplished, and he decided, well, I'm going to
take this last step. I'm going to I'm going to
go this extra mile. And he was successful. And from
that we learned that when you take things upon yourself,
(17:56):
when you take your happiness and your fulfillment in life
upon yourself, you know that it's it's the it's the
best thing that you can it's the best thing that
you can do. Keith is a well read man. He's
He's spent most of that time in prison reading. There
are probably few degreed individuals out here in the world
(18:21):
who have studied as much as he has. He's used
his time wisely, and it was a decision. It was
a conscious decision on his part to do so. He's
filled his life with knowledge and beauty through music and
poetry and art. He's done everything he can to make
(18:43):
his existence worthwhile, no matter where that existence happens to
be physically located. And I admire him for that. You know,
he also has a wicked sense of humor. He says,
one of the funniest people that that I've ever met.
And again, you know, just I sit back in awe
(19:05):
sometimes and wonder how anyone in that situation could could
have a sense of humor about anything.
Speaker 7 (19:12):
And yet this was his decision.
Speaker 8 (19:16):
It was his decision that he was going to value
in his life if no one around him valued his life. Wow, sorry, Yeah,
that if no one was going to put value, no
(19:39):
one around him was going to put value in his life,
that he himself would put value in his life. To me,
that is the lesson that I learned from Keith.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
I ask Brian why he believes in Keith's innocence.
Speaker 8 (19:59):
I think sometimes innocence is the wrong word, you know,
because there's innocent and there's not guilty, you know. And
I feel like I don't think any of us who
would have been in a situation like that are innocent. Okay,
you know, because you're in jail, you know things happen,
(20:19):
you see things that happen. You know, there's no way
you can be innocent. But what you can be is
not guilty, you know. And I believe that Keith is
not guilty. Yeah, I don't believe that he committed any
of the crimes that he was charged with.
Speaker 7 (20:36):
He wanted to go to trial because he was naive,
he was young.
Speaker 8 (20:39):
He believed in the American justice system, and he was
punished for that.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
What are your feelings about the fact that Keith's execution
data is literally less than a year away.
Speaker 8 (20:54):
You know, it's hard to think that, you know that
if all else fails, that Keith will be put to death.
I just you know, I none of us wants to
think about that.
Speaker 7 (21:06):
You know.
Speaker 8 (21:07):
I'm optimistic, you know, but I'm also quite still rooted
in the reality that there is a legal paper somewhere
saying that on November sixteenth, twenty twenty three.
Speaker 7 (21:24):
You know, this.
Speaker 8 (21:25):
Act is supposed to be carried out. This is no
way to handle human beings for whatever they did, or
for whatever you think that they did, to kill someone,
that's not an acceptable form of punishment in the twenty
first century. We're not barbarians, or are we?
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Have you allowed yourself to go there to imagine?
Speaker 8 (21:58):
I just know that if it where to happen, I
would have to be there, and I cannot imagine my
life after that day. I really don't know how I
could live. How I could you know, go on, we
obviously we all would, you know, but not in a
(22:18):
good way. Not in a good way. I'm kind of
like getting over overcome again, you know, with emotion, and yeah,
it's a it's a dire situation. It's it's a you know,
it's a situation. It shouldn't happen. It shouldn't have happened,
and there are a lot of people who were responsible
(22:40):
for it happening. Seems that Keith is the one paying
the price for it. We just need a little time
to sort it all out. I hope we get that time.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
I know that you talk to Keith all the time.
But if there's anything that you could say to Keith
that you'd want him to know that you haven't said, or.
Speaker 8 (23:01):
I would say that you know that I think that Keith,
I think you were one of the freest people I've
ever met. You're freeer than a lot of us, You're
free than the people who put you there.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
So how did you first learn about Keith lamar So?
Speaker 4 (23:37):
In the department where I'm right now, my neighbor here
was Brian Jackson.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
That's Albert Marquess, pianist, composer and activist. He's originally from Catalonia, Spain.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
And during the Black Lives Matter of protest we had
many conversations and one of the ones that we had
was what if we protest before they killed somebody, not after.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
I speak with Albert over Zoom.
Speaker 4 (24:07):
My love for music, I mean, it's really my love
for jazz and for Black American music. It just started
when I was probably eleven twelve years old, and the
specific element of improvisation is really what not only blew
my mind, but I think helped me to approach live
(24:29):
in general. I just loved it as an attitude towards
being on this planet.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
For the last six years, Albert has been teaching music
at a New York City public middle and high school
called the Institute for Collaborative Education.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
It was created by a social worker around twenty five
years ago. We basically use music as a tool to
help people who are in difficult situations.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
When you first started talking with Keith, what did he
say about his case?
Speaker 4 (25:01):
Let me say before I answer that that I'm against
death penalty in all cases, even when people are guilty.
I'm against solitary confinement in all cases, even when people
are guilty. It's both are a form of torture. I
think it's the UN says that more than I think.
It's twenty seven days in solitary confinement will cause irreparable
(25:22):
brain damage. So he has been there twenty eight years
about his case. Keith was a great candidate to be
blamed because who would care about a black kid from
Cleveland that had no support, that was already there for murder,
Who would defend him, who was going to show up
(25:44):
to denounce what.
Speaker 5 (25:47):
They were doing to him. It was a great target.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
That's what I think that happened.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Motivated to do something to help, Albert gets an idea
a benefit concert for Keith, and then it.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
All started with the.
Speaker 5 (26:04):
Protests.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
On August twenty twenty at Grand Army Pleasant in the
middle of Brooklyn, with that permits of any kind, twenty
five musicians. I convince them to play for free, with
a lot of supporter from a lot of people that
helped us to make it happen, and then we played
for three hours in the middle of all the protests.
(26:25):
So that's really how it started.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
And Albert doesn't stop there.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
So I tried to take the slogan amplify voices as
literally as possible.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
He wants people to hear from Keith directly.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
And what we do is that through phone calls, we
provide the stage to the microphone for him to explain,
to explain by himself in his own words, what has
happened and what is happening to him.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
Here is a clip from the very first concert Albert
and Keith played together.
Speaker 10 (27:10):
Draft, Repeep and How the current three about beautiful days
a different way, I.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
But no.
Speaker 10 (27:34):
Increase takes Everybody thanks it out for coming out for
Suffer Day.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
From there, Albert decides to attempt the impossible to make
an album with Keith and nineteen musicians despite their many
obvious challenges. In twenty twenty two, the album Freedom for
named after the concert series, is released. Here's a short
clip from their song be Free.
Speaker 10 (28:12):
This is how it all began. A confused pain, a
spot turned to a flank. Ten people die, not that live.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Somebody had to be plain, even though it can never
be explained how the twenty two thousand people of epit
were connected, not that they could be connected to a class.
Speaker 10 (28:38):
This is what blocks the mind.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Finally, a corrap ter.
Speaker 10 (28:41):
Kept the mouth.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
This is the first album in history made by somebody
in death row. The album has Brian Jackson, who made
some of the most important albums in music history, mixing
spoken word and jazz. We have my mentor or Touro,
a pharaoh who has I don't know, seven eight grammars
Latin jazz legend that has helped me a lot, so
(29:07):
many great people. I mean, there aren't that many politicized
jazz musicians, so almost all of them are there.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
What do you want people to know about Keith?
Speaker 4 (29:18):
Basically, A lot of people ask me to convince them
about his innocence.
Speaker 10 (29:24):
I am going to do that.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
He's not perfect. He made mistakes. Listen to kid, Listen
to his own story. Because we can only kill people
when they are the humanized, when they are numbers, where
they are criminals, when they are monsters, if they make albums,
if they talk about their families and love and pain
and making mistakes in life. When we humanize them and
(29:46):
we see them as three D human beings, suddenly we
cannot just execute them, make them disappear forever without feeling anything.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
About a year after Elbert and Brian Jackson begin their
friendship with Keith, someone from Keith's past comes back into
his life.
Speaker 5 (30:08):
I'm Desmond Howard.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
Desmond Howard nineteen ninety one, Heisman Trophy winner and MVP
of Super Bowl thirty one. Today he's a football analyst
for ESPN, I speak with Desmond over Zoom.
Speaker 11 (30:24):
Keith was one of those players who, as a young man,
he just had like this energy about him, smiling, you know, joking.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Back in fifth grade.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Desmond is the new kid on Keith's Saint Tim's peewee
football team.
Speaker 11 (30:42):
Keith was a quarterback. He had these long limbs, you know,
but he can run. He was very athletic, and I mean,
you know, we were kids, but because I played so
much football now and I look back on it, he
was a real positive leader. He wasn't a guy who
was going to like get on you for no reason.
If a guy drops the ball or maybe fumbles the ball.
(31:05):
You know, he's not going to go up to a
guy and make him feel worse about it.
Speaker 5 (31:10):
He's the guy that's gonna go.
Speaker 11 (31:11):
Out there and try to pick you up and like, hey,
let's just get ready for the next place. That's kind
of like was his approach. That's what I remember about Keith.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
How long did you and Keith play together?
Speaker 11 (31:22):
So Keith and I played together for a few years,
even after we lost contact. He's a guy who somehow,
one way or another would come across my mind, you know,
and ironically coincidentally, he actually became really good friends with
another good friend of mine who I grew up with,
(31:45):
who lived in my same neighborhood named Kenneth Wright.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
You met ken Wright in episode five. Remember he's the
friend Keith jokingly referred to as his best friend, best dressed,
most intelligent. Could you ever have imagined that he would
end up in prison?
Speaker 11 (32:05):
So I would say that because of the environment that
we all came from, it was not far fetched for
me to think that anybody, or at least that most
of the people who I came in contact with, whether
it was playing baseball, football, or basketball, if you were
(32:27):
from the inner City like we all were, was caught
up in some sort of bad situation and ended up
spending some time in prison. Because that was the path
that a lot of the young black males that I knew,
they were on that path, whether they were on the path,
(32:50):
either go to jail or you would hear.
Speaker 5 (32:52):
That they were murdered.
Speaker 11 (32:54):
Unfortunately, that's just the reality of the environment that we
ain't from, you know, and it's crazy to say it,
but I could have been caught up in some some shit,
you know. I don't know how I got out of
those situations, and I must have had someone looking over
me or I ain'tel on my shoulder that that evening.
(33:16):
But there were multiple occasions where things could have could
have turned left and I could have been caught up
in a situation that wouldn't have ended well for either
me or the other person.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
It's not until many years later when Doesmond hears Keith's
name again, Ken tells him Keith is on death row
for killing five people during the Lucasville Uprising.
Speaker 11 (33:43):
And was like, whoa, whoa Keith Lamar Keith I played
with at Saint Tham's. He's he's on death row, Like
are you serious?
Speaker 5 (33:55):
For what? And it's just like unbelievable.
Speaker 11 (33:59):
It's just it was something that I couldn't even wrap
my mind around, Like it can't be the same guy
who I played little league football with. Now I know
guys who were in prison. I've had family members in
prison for doing things out you know, the illegal things,
But I've never ever known anybody to be on death row.
Speaker 5 (34:22):
And so when I heard that.
Speaker 11 (34:25):
He was supposed to be the leader of a death squad,
I was thinking, like, how could this person?
Speaker 5 (34:37):
Now, Like I said, none of us were angels.
Speaker 11 (34:40):
You know, we did what we had to do when
we had to do whatever we had to do to
survive for the most part, But to be labeled as
the leader of a death squad, like I just never
would imagine keep having that type of like hate in
his heart, that he would be a leader of a
(35:02):
death squad. So my whole thought process was, how did
they come to this conclusion and what's the evidence?
Speaker 3 (35:11):
In time, Desmond makes the trip to see Keith at
the Ohio State Penitentiary. It would be the first time
seeing each other since they were kids.
Speaker 11 (35:21):
Visited someone in prison before, but never on death row.
So I didn't know what it would take. And I
was excited to see my old friend.
Speaker 5 (35:28):
I really was.
Speaker 11 (35:29):
And if you ever see the pictures that we took,
I was.
Speaker 5 (35:35):
I got back home and I got to tell.
Speaker 11 (35:38):
You, Leah, I was looking at the picture that I
took and I was conflicted because when you see it, like,
if you know me, I'm a person that has I
have a big personality as far as like smiling, I
smiled big, I laughed loud, I laughed hard. It's just
who I am. And so I'm visiting my old teammate
(36:01):
and I'm looking at this is my man, this is Keith,
you know, and so that's what the smile says. But
the predicament is it's completely opposite that. And since it's
completely opposite that, I'm like, damn, maybe I shouldn't have
been smiling so fucking hard, you know. Yeah, And I
(36:22):
was conflicted about that, I really was. But it just
shows you that that's what he brings out in me,
because that's what he is to me, even under those circumstances.
My man is chained to this table, he's on death road,
but when I see him, that's what comes out of
(36:43):
me because that's the energy I get from him. It
speaks to the true nature of our relationship and.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
Who Keith is to me.
Speaker 11 (36:55):
You know, my dad was very fond of Keith, and
I always look at my dad as a great judge
of character. He used to help Keith out, unbeknownst to me,
even sometimes financially, you know, get him a few dollars
here or there, and but that's.
Speaker 5 (37:13):
Just how my dad is.
Speaker 11 (37:14):
But he he wouldn't have done that for everybody or anybody,
and that just speaks to.
Speaker 5 (37:21):
To how how he saw Keith too. When I went
to visit Keith.
Speaker 11 (37:26):
He had mentioned that, yeah, take your dad, I owe him,
you know X amount of dollars.
Speaker 5 (37:32):
These are like seven dollars.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Oh my god.
Speaker 5 (37:36):
Yeah, I was like one of the first things he said.
He's funny that way. Mm.
Speaker 11 (37:42):
It's tough, it is, it's really tough. The reason why
it's so hard, it's simply because it's not that I'm
saying I know what happened that the riot. It's not
(38:06):
that I'm saying Keith is innocent or guilty of anything
that he was accused of. It's so rough, Leah, because
he did not get a fair trial. At the end
of the day, that's all anybody could ever ask for
(38:30):
in this judicial system is a fair trial. And because
the evidence is clearly there that things were withheld, he
didn't get a fair trial.
Speaker 5 (38:43):
That's what makes it.
Speaker 11 (38:45):
So such a bitter pill to swallow, Leah. It really
is that they want to kill this man.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
For Keith.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Twenty twenty two and twenty twenty three so far have
been busy between the ongoing Freedom First concerts being performed
around the world and the weekly book club sessions he
runs as part of his native Son's Literacy project. Keith
was also a guest speaker and recognized at the eighth
(39:28):
World Congress against the Death Penalty in Berlin. He was
a featured narrator for Samora Pinder Hughes's concert at Carnegie
Hall and contributed spoken word poetry for Mia Pearlman's multi
media sculpture at Michigan State University.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
I've spent the past in a half decades than to
do something Iverer spoke with my life, not because I
thought it might get me out of prison, but just
because I didn't want to waste my one and only life.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
But says, the one thing that's been missing the last
several years has been a legal team actively fighting to
get him back into court. And then, unbelievably, as I'm
nearing the end of my research and conducting interviews, a
new attorney comes on board.
Speaker 9 (40:18):
My name is Keegan Stephan.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
Keigan agrees to speak with me over Zoom.
Speaker 9 (40:23):
I'm from Alaska, originally moved to New York to go
to undergrad. Went to undergrad for creative writing. I sort
of worked as a writer journalist for a while, got
very involved in advocacy work, ultimately focused on racial justice
issues Black Lives Matter organizations in that capacity, and doing that,
(40:44):
decided that I wanted to go to law school.
Speaker 5 (40:45):
I thought that was sort of the best way I
could help out.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
While in law school, Keegan works with the Innocence Project. Eventually,
he is hired as an associate at belldoc Levigne and Hoffman,
a civil rights boutique law firm in New York City,
where he works today. The firm has handled some pretty
famous cases, like the exoneration of Reuben Hurricane Carter.
Speaker 9 (41:10):
Another big case that the firm handled was representing four
of the Central Park Five, the people who were wrongfully
convicted of the Central Park jogger rape case, made famous
by the fact that Donald Trump took out a whole
page ad in the New York Times calling for their execution.
Turns out they were innocent. This firm also litigated the
Stop in Friss case, which was the case that ultimately
(41:30):
held that the New York City Police Department stopping for
his program was a violation of the equal Protection class.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
But It's In late twenty twenty two, while playing a
pickup game of basketball, Keegan learns about Keith.
Speaker 9 (41:45):
One of the people who plays is one of Keith
Lamar's primary non legal advocates. Wally White, himself a pretty
exceptional individual hosts podcast about mental health issues in the
black community, whially gave me a copy of Keith's book.
I then started researching his case, read the court decisions,
and you know, just reading the state Supreme Court decision
(42:08):
and the federal habeas decision, it was very clear to
me that at minimum, he did not get a fair trial,
that there were tons of improprieties. And speaking with him
and speaking with his advocacy team and other sort of
people in the know legally in Ohio, it seems pretty
clear to me that he is innocent. So I said
I would be happy to help out.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
To be clear, Keegan is at the very beginning of
taking on Keith's case. He hasn't even received all of
the files from Keith's federal defenders yet. But because this
is the first time I am able to speak with
an attorney who is actually representing Keith, I decide to
try and get at least a few of my questions answered.
(42:51):
Have you seen a list of what was actually turned
over from the prosecution to the defense? Is there a
log of what exactly was turned over?
Speaker 5 (43:02):
Not that I'm aware of.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Yeah, I definitely haven't seen that.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
So and as we know that there's no DNA evidence
linking Keith to any of the crimes that he was
convicted of, or anyone, like there's no physical evidence tying
any of the people who were convicted to any of
the victims. I had heard somewhere along the way that
when Keith and the three hundred men who were out
on the yard were brought inside the gym and then
(43:30):
put in the K block cells, that their clothes were
all put in a big heap and they were eventually burned.
And that's destroying evidence, right.
Speaker 9 (43:40):
Yeah, it certainly doesn't seem like a proper investigation to
burn a bunch of potential evidence. I've heard that story
as well, and that story only mentions the clothing of
the people who survived. I want to pull out that
thread a little bit more. It doesn't seem out of
the question to me that maybe some of the clothing
(44:00):
of some of the victims still exists somewhere, and if
it does, that should be DNA testing.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
So you know, there are at least two other guys
who were beaten, basically left for dead, but survived. There
was a guy named Itchie Walker, and then this guy
Andre Stockton, and I interviewed Andre Stockton. He was in
a coma for two weeks. After I asked him what
he remembered, he said that he remembers Keith being there.
(44:29):
Why do you think if Keith was the leader of
this death squad, why would they give him a pass
on Itchy Walker and Andre Stockton.
Speaker 9 (44:37):
It doesn't make sense, particularly from the prosecutor's perspective. If
you have two living witnesses who were victims, they could
have had these people come in and testify that he was,
you know, the leader of the death squad, and that
would have very much tied together and supported their case.
It's hard to imagine stronger evidence than that. It's definitely
(44:59):
strong than the people who were not involved or victims,
and so that seems suspicious.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
Keigan says what needs to happen now is a full
reinvestigation into Keith's case in the hopes that they will
uncover some newly discovered evidence that could get them back
into state court. But the voluminous file is going to
take an army of people to go through it all.
So Keegan is in the process of seeking the help
(45:28):
of others like law school clinics and large firms, pro
bono departments.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
How do you feel about your chances?
Speaker 9 (45:36):
I and every other person remotely close to this case,
including many attorneys who know about it, believe that our
reinvestigation will uncover a lot of newly discovered evidence that
will warrant a new trial.
Speaker 3 (45:51):
And Keith's execution data set for November sixteenth, twenty twenty three.
There is an unofficial moratorium in the state on executions.
But how does that affect you or not affect your plan?
You're taking that date as a real date, right, like
you're finding the clock at this point, right.
Speaker 9 (46:08):
You know what matters is what matters to Keith, and
he certainly doesn't see that data as fake. I also
don't really know what an unofficial moratorium is. That sounds
pretty meaningless to me. So yeah, we're acting with you know,
as much urgency as we can.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
A little over a month after my interview with Keegan,
a potential bombshell drops into my inbox. I am sent
a two thousand and seven affidavit written by Howard Hudson,
retired staff lieutenant from the Ohio State Highway Patrol. He
testified at Keith's nineteen ninety five trial that there was
no physical evidence that came back linked to anybody. Well,
(46:49):
in mister Hudson's affidavit, he had a bit more to
say on this matter. Quote, all physical evidence tangible items
collected during the investigation of the Lucasville disturbance, insofar as
not presented as evidence in a criminal prosecution, was destroyed
(47:10):
per the authorization of the lead prosecutor and myself. Okay,
so Howard Hudson said he and the lead prosecutor. I mean,
is he talking about Mark Petemeyer because pete Meyer was
the lead slash special prosecutor on the Lucasville cases. Anyway,
(47:31):
Hudson said he and the lead prosecutor gave the go
ahead to have physical evidence destroyed. Now we don't know
when or what evidence exactly was destroyed, but that seems
like quite an admission. Keith never knew about the affidavit
until now, but he says he's not completely surprised by it.
(47:55):
He firmly believes there's so much more out there like it,
and once Keegan and the new team take a long,
hard look at his case, they will discover what is
needed to get him back into court and a chance
at a new trial.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
That's really the final piece that I need. Somebody who
prepared to dosy on my case, and like Golfin, you
know how you take your car and you do the
diagnostic and you can see all the things that's wrong
with your car. I'm hoping that somebody is able to
do that on my legal situation, because you know, that's
the only way really to fix this.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
It's hard to believe, but the time has come. This
is our last episode. I actually didn't want to write it.
I had some kind of mental block about putting an
end to the season, an end to Keith's story, an
end of any kind to.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
It at all.
Speaker 3 (48:54):
What started as a reinvestigation morphed into something very different.
Was it perfect reporting? No, how could it be. I
didn't have access to the majority of the documents or
certain people, like the prosecutors. But in the course of
(49:14):
these eleven months and almost ninety hours of interviews, I've
learned a lot about Lucasville, the uprising, Keith and his case.
I've also learned a lot about myself.
Speaker 12 (49:32):
Yeah, so I don't even really know how to I'm
gonna start crying. I don't even really know how to
ask you this, because so I'm writing the last episode
this this conversation will go into the last episode November sixteenth.
(49:57):
What do you think when you think about that date approach.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
I don't think about that day a lot, and I
know it's there, but I don't. I don't look at
it as like a destination that I have a one
day arrived. Look that my life is a process which
requires your full attention right here in the moment. Amy
was compiling some information for someone the other day and
(50:24):
I had to kind of go through all the things
that we have accomplished over the past several years, and
it's a lot. And I told her that she was
starting to share that with me. Like Amy, I don't
want to hear about it. I don't want to know
how much we've done. I'm just want to focus right
here on this moment. I think if I started thinking
(50:45):
about November sixteenth, somehow I'm bleeding to what I'm doing
and take away from the urgency. Because I live with
the reality that, you know, I can die the night
in my sleep. All of us can, so I don't
really you know, not putting my head in the sand.
(51:05):
The opposite of that, I'm bringing as much as I
Usta can to the moment every day I can possibly do.
Board off destly murdered by these people. I take them
that they were the history of this country. They're fully
(51:26):
capable of carrying, you know, execution out so I know
all those things. So there's nothing really to think about
with that respect. So you know, I'll deal with that
when I get there. My focus is or is centered
on right now. Time between now and then we'll move.
(51:47):
Fasts have gone by, you know, rather quickly. So it's
and when that time comes and that one day find
myself stop to a journey, it won't be because I
didn't do everything in my power. And you know that's
when I focus on to make sure I do everything
I can possibly do, so when if that time comes,
(52:08):
I can uh uh, don't out the shadow of a
doubt that I Q f Lamar have done everything to
stand up and represent this, this one and only life
that I've been given. It's just life that I have.
I fought for it that I you know, I stood
(52:30):
up and I you know represented it to the best
of my ability, and and and all the things that
Amy was trying to tell me about those things were
standing in my place. It for me. You know another thing.
Over the years, obviously, there's been quite a few people,
I think, and I show exactly a hundred or a
(52:53):
couple of hundred people who have been exonerating. I forget
there's that number, but it's a significant amount of people
who have been exonerating. I think I might one day
join you know, that list of people. But as I
as I, you know, go through my day that day,
I don't necessarily think about that so much in terms
(53:15):
of the outcome. But what I do think about is
the other people who I've seen in this position, and
how after thirty years of rome full conviction and everything
that entails, that they are so meek and so accommodating,
so forgiving people. I don't want these people to think
(53:40):
that what they have done to me, not to mention
what they intend to do somehow, Okay with me, Okay,
we'll keep from Marge not angry about this shit. Not
just the fact that y'all have given me an execution date,
but the ship, all the stuff y'all have done to
me up until this point. It's the ironic thing about
(54:01):
my situation, Lid that I would have gotten off easier
had I killed five people that's the kind of system
that we operate under. When I went back from my
everydentiary here in two thousand and seven, that Piker was
called put on the standing recess. He was at the
Elevator Bank and some of my friends were there, and
he was talking to somebody on the phone. He said, Man,
(54:24):
I can't he looked good. Man, I can't believe it,
you know, like you're a shock, like shit he had
them and that shit pretty good. You know, he looked good.
I got to give him that. He said something like that,
and to be honest with you, sowing am I throwing
am I? That's part of the reason why I don't
(54:44):
start to think about it, because you know, i'd just be,
you know, crying all the time. I didn't know I
had this in me. I didn't know it. I didn't
know I was this morning. I didn't know it. I
didn't know it. And I would have never known that
if I took that deal. I would never found that out,
(55:06):
never knew how amazing this life is. That I took
taken that deal and I did the thing that all
of us been given to do over and over again.
If you pour it, you black, you know, take the
easy way out. So I'm just a shot Mark Pete
myer self teaser, you know what I mean. But if
and when my time comes, they would know that how
(55:26):
I feel about them in this bullshit system and not
gonna you know, play the meet role, you know, the
you know, the forgiving slaves. Won't be able to go
home and put your kids in the bed because you're
gonna have to murder me, have to murder somebody when
that day comes. That's on everything I love, on everything
(55:50):
I love, You're gonna have to murder me. You there.
Speaker 3 (56:00):
Yeah, I'm still here with Keegan and the new team.
There's got to be some hope there, right.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
It's a lot of hope. So the hope is, like
I said, it's not on the outcome, it's you know,
on the things that we have done and achieved along
the way. All these things provide the hope. There's reason
to hope. Of course, your house on fire is one
thing to know that someone has called nine one one.
(56:29):
It's another thing is to hit sirens. All that contributes
to your hope that everything that you love, everything that
you work for, everything that you are will you know,
will be saved. But it's another thing to see the
holes being hooked up to the water hydrant, but then
see the water coming out of the holes and see
(56:52):
the water, you know, it stinks in the fire. I
hear the fire trucks coming, I know the call has
been made. I can hear the fire drugs come me,
but they haven't ariety that. Even while I'm hopeful, while
I'm also looking at my everything that I love burned down,
I'm anxious about, you know, about the whole thing. I
(57:12):
just say that to say that, you know, I'm in
proximity to the help that I need, the help that
I've been you know, praying and open for for so
many years. But until that, you know, that holds hop
to that that hydrant and that water start issuing force,
that justice start issuing force. You know, I'm gonna try to,
you know, contain myself.
Speaker 7 (57:34):
Yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (57:39):
Mean, so, you know, this will be our official, our official,
last conversation. I would hope that we could keep the
conversation going. I would like to keep talking.
Speaker 1 (57:58):
Well, glad sure that we're I feel similar. You have
one minute remaining.
Speaker 3 (58:15):
I would like to thank everyone who participated this season.
There are too many people to name here, but thank you.
And I would especially like to thank Keith. This wasn't
an easy story to tell, and clearly I couldn't have
done it without you all. I am grateful for your time, candor, patience,
(58:39):
generosity and graciousness.
Speaker 10 (58:42):
Whatever you had.
Speaker 1 (58:43):
A time to talk again, Let's talk again.
Speaker 2 (58:44):
You know, I'm not saying goodbye. I'm not saying goodbye.
Speaker 6 (58:49):
This is it.
Speaker 2 (58:50):
Okay, this is until we until we speak again. How
about that?
Speaker 1 (58:53):
Yeah? Okay, yeah, so we speak again. Yeah that sounds better. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (59:16):
For updates on Keith's story, please visit at The Real
Killer podcast on Instagram. The Real Killer is a production
of AYR Media and iHeartRadio, hosted by me Leah Rothman.
Executive producers Leah Rothman and Elisa Rosen for AYR Media.
(59:40):
Written by Leah Rothman, Executive producer Paulina Williams, Senior Associate
producer Jill Pusheznik. Coordinators George Famm and Melina Krajevsky. Editing
and sound design by Cameron Taggy, mixed and mastered by
Cameron Taggi. Audio and engineering by Matt Jacobson. Studio engineering
(01:00:03):
by Jay Brannan Legal counsel for a y R Media.
Gianni Douglas, executive producer for iHeartRadio, Maya Howard,
Hey man, Hey Leah.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
I'm well, how are you?
Speaker 1 (00:05):
I'm pretty good.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
I listened to the podcast I speak with Keith just
hours after the first two episodes drop.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
You only you know how it's going in But even
though I you know, I also know you know where
it's going, I'm still sitting on the edge of my seat,
on the edge of the tarnet. Who knows whether or
not it's gonna make a difference in terms of the
outcome of my own personal individual situation. But what you
are doing by excavating, going back in and digging through
(00:41):
the debris that was left behind and bringing that to surface.
You you you ribbing people the other other excuse to
say that we didn't know. But at the same time,
you know, you going into some real dark place and
you know I was there and my heart beating meal
fast after we're going through the music. It's real. It's
(01:02):
it's spokey, man, you know what I mean. I mean
it is, It's really something. And you know, of course
I don't like hearing about my former self in the light.
You know, you know, I'm ashamed, you know stood to
watch this man, you know be you know it's twenty
three though you know, and that was thirty years ago.
(01:22):
You know, I was twenty three years old, and you know,
just froze.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Keith is referring to watching the murder of Dennis Weaver
in that KVE block cell.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
It's hard to see yourself, but it happened. It's real,
It's real. And you know, as I said at the outset,
you know, as long as you after the truth, you
know you are now we're not gonna have this problems,
you know, And so you know I still feel that,
and so I'm just waiting on the next episode.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
I'm Leah Rothman. This is the Real Killer Episode eleven.
I hear the fire trucks coming.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
When is the next episode coming out?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Next Thursday?
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Oh? Every Thursday. Hun you gotta wait a hole wait.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Not long after this conversation, in February twenty twenty three,
things in Keith's world take a major turn. He goes
on a hunger strike to protest some rights which he
says had been stripped from him, and to get ahead
of it before even more are taken away. As we
know by now, this isn't Keith's first hunger strike.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I was a home strike this time for I think
eight or nine days, and it's a cruising process, especially
as a city three yoh. You know, one of the
things that I was protesting also with the sact that
I was being raft in the visiting room. My campaign
has elevated somewhat in over the past couple of years,
and that you know, we are receiving more publicity, there's
(03:11):
more things happen and bring the more scrutiny to the
Luisville prosecutions. And there's been you know, aggivation obviously from
the state about that, and it's just been a constant
low grade antagonisms, as I call them, like death five
thousand cuts all meant to kind of you know, lure
(03:31):
you into overreaction and then you know, they can take
the phone from you, they can take the business, and
all those things directly affect my participation in my campaign. Yeah.
After the Real Killer came out on the sixteenth of February,
I went on a visit on the seventeenth. When I
came back, mysell had been ransacked and that was really
(03:52):
the kind of the straw for me.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
A few days into the hunger strike, Keith is put
into solitary confinement, also known as the whole.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
You know, the thing that I found most like, surprising
them by the whole thing. So I hadn't been in
the hole in over a decade or so, and so
I haven't been exposed to the average prisoners down here,
the young guys, the guys who haven't yet acquired to
resources mental, emotional, financials to really navigate this difficult situation.
(04:24):
And I had been away from that type of struggle
for a long time. I've been here for twenty five years,
so of course I have adjusted. You know, I went
into this sale and it was writing graffiti.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
All on the walls.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
You no, guys that are different degrees of distress, writing
SOS messages out on the wall. The mirror was crashed out.
These guys they smoking this drug called toned fenmerally some
taller paper or paper with some rope spray on it.
And these kids, all they are they talk about is massive.
(05:01):
You know, I'm fifty three years old, them sitting back.
I'm listening. It's weird ass shit, you know, even talking
about hours. Man, they're just talking about their penises, you
know what I mean. But that's a reduction. That's how
you've been reduced to, you know what I mean. You know,
my first day in the hole, I stood at my
door for two hours talking to young guys about how
to equip themselves, about different books I've read that helped
(05:24):
me along the way. I think I was back in
the hole for like five or six days, and then
they moved me down to the infirmary, which is like
the you know, obvious the end of the spectrum in
terms of, you know, the noise and craziness of the hole,
the chaos of the hole. The infirmary was just this
real crenth, the walls well painted white, no graffiti, real antiseptic,
(05:48):
you know, bed in the middle of the room. And
so I was able then to kind of reflect on
what I had just went through.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
It's there.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Keith listens to aisode four and he has a big
reaction to what he heard Judge Crow say. Here's a
clip from that episode. Did you, in your years of
being a judge have a certain reputation?
Speaker 5 (06:12):
Yeah, I kind of did.
Speaker 6 (06:15):
I actually had a song about me if I I
should have looked it up. I've got to play it
for you, hanging Judge pro That's that was the song,
and that was a reputation among most of the attorneys.
I knew. I was a strong advocate for law enforcement.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Hanging judge crow like hanging people or what.
Speaker 6 (06:42):
Would Yeah, it was a comedy type song friend of
mine route.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
It was interesting him and Judge Crowe speak so openly,
candidly about his reputation a linking judge or hanging judge.
I he didn't really have any awareness of what he
was saying. Now here we are really talking about the
case that was you know, you know, steeped and racism
(07:11):
and all white jewelry. I'm the only black person then,
and he, you know, taking pride in being you know,
the lyngend judge and what I'm saying that you know,
I didn't get I didn't receive a fair trial. There
was no way I can receive a fair trial with
the team that they are symbol. I'm talking about the judge,
the prosecutor, not just in my case, but you know
in other guy's cases. And that's the problem with the system.
(07:32):
It's not the constitution, it's not the the statutes. All
those things. If applied properly, I think you can get
close to, uh, what justice really is. It's human beings
that that that that prevent that process from happening. You know,
when Colin Kaipernac took a knee. All those people was,
you know, so up in arms and bout it. Those
(07:53):
are very very people who sit on juries who you know,
don't you require any evidence to sensusbody is a death.
So it's not that the system itself is broken. I'm
talking about the Constitution and how it was written. That
was the ideal, though no ideals are just abstractions. In
two human beings actually do the thing that they say
that they carry through. I think Seth Tiger and all
(08:16):
of them, not just with my case, but with all
the cases that I'm not coming back to bear will
say something about their collective legacy what they did over
the past three decades of running the Hamilton County Prosecutor's office.
You know, I think the legacy would we want to
racism towards black men in particular and putting people on
death row, you know, I think that would be the
(08:38):
legacy of Ahimer County prosecuting in the office.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
I had hoped the prosecutors in Keith's case, Seth Tiger,
Bill Anderson, and Special Prosecutor Mark Petemeyer, would have agreed
at some point to speak with me, but they never did.
They weren't the only ones. Keith's federal defenders who have
been representing him for the last several years were helpful
(09:04):
by providing me some documents and answering some questions via
email and over the phone, But in terms of sitting
down for an interview, no, it never happened. And I'm
sure they're busy. It's no secret that public defenders are
overworked with heavy caseloads. But still it's strange. In fact,
(09:27):
it's the first time in all of my years dealing
with something like this. I mean, attorneys usually jump at
the chance to defend their client from time to time.
I would ask Keith about it, and naturally he'd get angry.
He suspected they didn't want to be interviewed because they
weren't actually doing anything on the case, and admitting that
(09:47):
out loud might not look great for them. It's something
he's actually called them out on in the past.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
I think you wanted now my time. This is four
years out, four years ago. I said. Now, I don't
blame you for doing that, but I want you to
know how I feel the body. I feel like this
is a legal leging that I'm undergoing, and that you
are just as responsible putting a noose around my neck
(10:16):
as the people who are kid to hang me for
a tree.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
As of early twenty twenty three, there is nothing officially
happening in Keith's case, and his execution date is just
seven months away. Back in twenty fifteen, the Sixth Circuit
upheld the lower Court's decision, keeping Keith's conviction and death
sentence in place. In April of twenty sixteen, the US
(10:48):
Supreme Court refused to hear Keith's case. In twenty seventeen
and twenty eighteen, motions for relief were filed, but all
were denied. Then, in December of twenty eight teen, Keith's
execution date.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Was set by the way.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
It was Special Prosecutor Mark Petemeyer who asked the court
to set the date. Fast forward to March of twenty twenty,
and the world comes to a screeching halt. COVID nineteen
hits were thrust into a pandemic, and stay at home
orders are issued. Just days into the official lockdown, Keith
(11:29):
is interviewed by Mother Jones, where he shares some tips
on how to survive in isolation after his At that point,
twenty seven years of living in solitary confinement. The article
gets the attention of many, which causes a chain reaction
resulting in a lot of new support for Keith.
Speaker 7 (11:52):
I'm Brian Jackson. I am a musician.
Speaker 8 (11:54):
I'm one half the duo of Gil Scott Heron and
Brian Jackson. We recorded out eight or nine albums together
in the seventies. Our focus was on consciousness, on social consciousness,
and we basically tried to emulate patterns that that we
(12:17):
you know, that that we understood from some of our
greatest influences, people like James Baldwin, people like Langston Hughes,
musical heroes like John Coltrane and Billie Holliday and Miles Davis.
Initially the concept was to to try and and market
(12:38):
our ideas the way Wall Street marketed burgers, you know,
so to use popular music of the day, which was
was our music, which was black music, to to market
instead of burgers to market.
Speaker 7 (12:52):
Revolutionary thought.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
After Brian's wife reads the Mother Jones article, she he
gets Keith's book Condemned and tells Brian he must read it.
But Brian's not ready. The country's in turmoil, and it's
not just because of the pandemic. NBC Nightly News reports.
Speaker 9 (13:13):
In Minneapolis tonight, tensions are high as four police officers
have been fired after a man was pinned to the
ground and died.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
The incident was caught on camera.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
May twenty twenty, George Floyd is murdered by Minneapolis police
officer Derek Chauvin, and people have taken to the streets
in protest about yet another unarmed black man killed by police.
Speaker 7 (13:46):
That's the lego.
Speaker 8 (13:47):
Just overwhelmed by everything, and I said, I'm going to
read it, but I need, you know, I need some time.
Speaker 7 (13:54):
And she said, no, you have to read this now.
Speaker 8 (13:58):
Twenty four hours later, I put the book on the
table and I looked at her and I said, we
have to do something.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
When Brian and Keith finally speak, their connection is undeniable,
and it's not just their shared love of jazz that
solidifies it.
Speaker 8 (14:18):
And I hit it off like immediately, immediately, as though
we had been best friends for twenty years already. It
was almost as if we had some bond that was
just waiting to be recognized.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Brian decides he wants to do a podcast and he
wants Keith to be.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
His co host.
Speaker 7 (14:39):
Hi I'm Brian Jackson.
Speaker 8 (14:42):
This podcast is about music, justice and everything in between.
Speaker 7 (14:47):
This is Pieces of a Man.
Speaker 8 (14:52):
Thank you Keith, and I just want to say how
happy I am that we finally got this podcast off
the ground. Are you doing I'm doing good, brother, happy
have you here to help me co host this first
episode of Pieces of a Man. So why don't we
get right on into ith.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
H What are some of the topics that you discuss.
Speaker 8 (15:15):
I think one of my favorite episodes has to do
with agency, and it's because it's something that we all
wrestle with, uh in this in this time period, in
this in this where we are right now in our
in our history, and we've come to depend on so
(15:36):
many agents to do the things that that we once
had to do for ourselves.
Speaker 7 (15:41):
You know. We we've allowed the.
Speaker 8 (15:43):
Media to to to tell us how to think about
something worse, to tell us how to feel about things.
We allow people to decide what we will, we will eat,
we will, We allow corporations to tell us what we
should uh, how we should communicate. We we really have
(16:05):
given the majority of our of our free free will
over to others. And so when we get in trouble
or when we are unhappy. We expect someone to come
along and fix that, and in reality, no one's going
to come.
Speaker 7 (16:23):
No one's going to come and fix that.
Speaker 8 (16:24):
No one's going to come and tell you how to
find fulfillment in your life. And I think this is
Keith being in the situation that he was in uh
And and having no one there to do anything on
his behalf, you know. I think he got to the
(16:46):
realization that it was something that he had to do himself.
And first of all, you have to decide, and one
of the biggest decisions that he made was, I want
to be able to touch my family. I want to
be able to touch the people I love. I want
to be able to give them hugs and kisses, you know,
I want to be able to hold their hands. And
(17:07):
this is something that that the prison system was not
allowing him to do. And he protests, he protested, he petitioned,
he did everything that he possibly could, and none of
those things had worked. And finally he decided that he
would go on a hunger strike, and within twelve days,
the decision was made to allow the inmates to to
(17:30):
have contact, you know, to have full contact visits with
their with their family members. Something that had taken years,
was never accomplished, and he decided, well, I'm going to
take this last step. I'm going to I'm going to
go this extra mile. And he was successful. And from
that we learned that when you take things upon yourself,
(17:56):
when you take your happiness and your fulfillment in life
upon yourself, you know that it's it's the it's the
best thing that you can it's the best thing that
you can do. Keith is a well read man. He's
He's spent most of that time in prison reading. There
are probably few degreed individuals out here in the world
(18:21):
who have studied as much as he has. He's used
his time wisely, and it was a decision. It was
a conscious decision on his part to do so. He's
filled his life with knowledge and beauty through music and
poetry and art. He's done everything he can to make
(18:43):
his existence worthwhile, no matter where that existence happens to
be physically located. And I admire him for that. You know,
he also has a wicked sense of humor. He says,
one of the funniest people that that I've ever met.
And again, you know, just I sit back in awe
(19:05):
sometimes and wonder how anyone in that situation could could
have a sense of humor about anything.
Speaker 7 (19:12):
And yet this was his decision.
Speaker 8 (19:16):
It was his decision that he was going to value
in his life if no one around him valued his life. Wow, sorry, Yeah,
that if no one was going to put value, no
(19:39):
one around him was going to put value in his life,
that he himself would put value in his life. To me,
that is the lesson that I learned from Keith.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
I ask Brian why he believes in Keith's innocence.
Speaker 8 (19:59):
I think sometimes innocence is the wrong word, you know,
because there's innocent and there's not guilty, you know. And
I feel like I don't think any of us who
would have been in a situation like that are innocent. Okay,
you know, because you're in jail, you know things happen,
(20:19):
you see things that happen. You know, there's no way
you can be innocent. But what you can be is
not guilty, you know. And I believe that Keith is
not guilty. Yeah, I don't believe that he committed any
of the crimes that he was charged with.
Speaker 7 (20:36):
He wanted to go to trial because he was naive,
he was young.
Speaker 8 (20:39):
He believed in the American justice system, and he was
punished for that.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
What are your feelings about the fact that Keith's execution
data is literally less than a year away.
Speaker 8 (20:54):
You know, it's hard to think that, you know that
if all else fails, that Keith will be put to death.
I just you know, I none of us wants to
think about that.
Speaker 7 (21:06):
You know.
Speaker 8 (21:07):
I'm optimistic, you know, but I'm also quite still rooted
in the reality that there is a legal paper somewhere
saying that on November sixteenth, twenty twenty three.
Speaker 7 (21:24):
You know, this.
Speaker 8 (21:25):
Act is supposed to be carried out. This is no
way to handle human beings for whatever they did, or
for whatever you think that they did, to kill someone,
that's not an acceptable form of punishment in the twenty
first century. We're not barbarians, or are we?
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Have you allowed yourself to go there to imagine?
Speaker 8 (21:58):
I just know that if it where to happen, I
would have to be there, and I cannot imagine my
life after that day. I really don't know how I
could live. How I could you know, go on, we
obviously we all would, you know, but not in a
(22:18):
good way. Not in a good way. I'm kind of
like getting over overcome again, you know, with emotion, and yeah,
it's a it's a dire situation. It's it's a you know,
it's a situation. It shouldn't happen. It shouldn't have happened,
and there are a lot of people who were responsible
(22:40):
for it happening. Seems that Keith is the one paying
the price for it. We just need a little time
to sort it all out. I hope we get that time.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
I know that you talk to Keith all the time.
But if there's anything that you could say to Keith
that you'd want him to know that you haven't said, or.
Speaker 8 (23:01):
I would say that you know that I think that Keith,
I think you were one of the freest people I've
ever met. You're freeer than a lot of us, You're
free than the people who put you there.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
So how did you first learn about Keith lamar So?
Speaker 4 (23:37):
In the department where I'm right now, my neighbor here
was Brian Jackson.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
That's Albert Marquess, pianist, composer and activist. He's originally from Catalonia, Spain.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
And during the Black Lives Matter of protest we had
many conversations and one of the ones that we had
was what if we protest before they killed somebody, not after.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
I speak with Albert over Zoom.
Speaker 4 (24:07):
My love for music, I mean, it's really my love
for jazz and for Black American music. It just started
when I was probably eleven twelve years old, and the
specific element of improvisation is really what not only blew
my mind, but I think helped me to approach live
(24:29):
in general. I just loved it as an attitude towards
being on this planet.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
For the last six years, Albert has been teaching music
at a New York City public middle and high school
called the Institute for Collaborative Education.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
It was created by a social worker around twenty five
years ago. We basically use music as a tool to
help people who are in difficult situations.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
When you first started talking with Keith, what did he
say about his case?
Speaker 4 (25:01):
Let me say before I answer that that I'm against
death penalty in all cases, even when people are guilty.
I'm against solitary confinement in all cases, even when people
are guilty. It's both are a form of torture. I
think it's the UN says that more than I think.
It's twenty seven days in solitary confinement will cause irreparable
(25:22):
brain damage. So he has been there twenty eight years
about his case. Keith was a great candidate to be
blamed because who would care about a black kid from
Cleveland that had no support, that was already there for murder,
Who would defend him, who was going to show up
(25:44):
to denounce what.
Speaker 5 (25:47):
They were doing to him. It was a great target.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
That's what I think that happened.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Motivated to do something to help, Albert gets an idea
a benefit concert for Keith, and then it.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
All started with the.
Speaker 5 (26:04):
Protests.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
On August twenty twenty at Grand Army Pleasant in the
middle of Brooklyn, with that permits of any kind, twenty
five musicians. I convince them to play for free, with
a lot of supporter from a lot of people that
helped us to make it happen, and then we played
for three hours in the middle of all the protests.
(26:25):
So that's really how it started.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
And Albert doesn't stop there.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
So I tried to take the slogan amplify voices as
literally as possible.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
He wants people to hear from Keith directly.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
And what we do is that through phone calls, we
provide the stage to the microphone for him to explain,
to explain by himself in his own words, what has
happened and what is happening to him.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
Here is a clip from the very first concert Albert
and Keith played together.
Speaker 10 (27:10):
Draft, Repeep and How the current three about beautiful days
a different way, I.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
But no.
Speaker 10 (27:34):
Increase takes Everybody thanks it out for coming out for
Suffer Day.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
From there, Albert decides to attempt the impossible to make
an album with Keith and nineteen musicians despite their many
obvious challenges. In twenty twenty two, the album Freedom for
named after the concert series, is released. Here's a short
clip from their song be Free.
Speaker 10 (28:12):
This is how it all began. A confused pain, a
spot turned to a flank. Ten people die, not that live.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Somebody had to be plain, even though it can never
be explained how the twenty two thousand people of epit
were connected, not that they could be connected to a class.
Speaker 10 (28:38):
This is what blocks the mind.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Finally, a corrap ter.
Speaker 10 (28:41):
Kept the mouth.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
This is the first album in history made by somebody
in death row. The album has Brian Jackson, who made
some of the most important albums in music history, mixing
spoken word and jazz. We have my mentor or Touro,
a pharaoh who has I don't know, seven eight grammars
Latin jazz legend that has helped me a lot, so
(29:07):
many great people. I mean, there aren't that many politicized
jazz musicians, so almost all of them are there.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
What do you want people to know about Keith?
Speaker 4 (29:18):
Basically, A lot of people ask me to convince them
about his innocence.
Speaker 10 (29:24):
I am going to do that.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
He's not perfect. He made mistakes. Listen to kid, Listen
to his own story. Because we can only kill people
when they are the humanized, when they are numbers, where
they are criminals, when they are monsters, if they make albums,
if they talk about their families and love and pain
and making mistakes in life. When we humanize them and
(29:46):
we see them as three D human beings, suddenly we
cannot just execute them, make them disappear forever without feeling anything.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
About a year after Elbert and Brian Jackson begin their
friendship with Keith, someone from Keith's past comes back into
his life.
Speaker 5 (30:08):
I'm Desmond Howard.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
Desmond Howard nineteen ninety one, Heisman Trophy winner and MVP
of Super Bowl thirty one. Today he's a football analyst
for ESPN, I speak with Desmond over Zoom.
Speaker 11 (30:24):
Keith was one of those players who, as a young man,
he just had like this energy about him, smiling, you know, joking.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Back in fifth grade.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Desmond is the new kid on Keith's Saint Tim's peewee
football team.
Speaker 11 (30:42):
Keith was a quarterback. He had these long limbs, you know,
but he can run. He was very athletic, and I mean,
you know, we were kids, but because I played so
much football now and I look back on it, he
was a real positive leader. He wasn't a guy who
was going to like get on you for no reason.
If a guy drops the ball or maybe fumbles the ball.
(31:05):
You know, he's not going to go up to a
guy and make him feel worse about it.
Speaker 5 (31:10):
He's the guy that's gonna go.
Speaker 11 (31:11):
Out there and try to pick you up and like, hey,
let's just get ready for the next place. That's kind
of like was his approach. That's what I remember about Keith.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
How long did you and Keith play together?
Speaker 11 (31:22):
So Keith and I played together for a few years,
even after we lost contact. He's a guy who somehow,
one way or another would come across my mind, you know,
and ironically coincidentally, he actually became really good friends with
another good friend of mine who I grew up with,
(31:45):
who lived in my same neighborhood named Kenneth Wright.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
You met ken Wright in episode five. Remember he's the
friend Keith jokingly referred to as his best friend, best dressed,
most intelligent. Could you ever have imagined that he would
end up in prison?
Speaker 11 (32:05):
So I would say that because of the environment that
we all came from, it was not far fetched for
me to think that anybody, or at least that most
of the people who I came in contact with, whether
it was playing baseball, football, or basketball, if you were
(32:27):
from the inner City like we all were, was caught
up in some sort of bad situation and ended up
spending some time in prison. Because that was the path
that a lot of the young black males that I knew,
they were on that path, whether they were on the path,
(32:50):
either go to jail or you would hear.
Speaker 5 (32:52):
That they were murdered.
Speaker 11 (32:54):
Unfortunately, that's just the reality of the environment that we
ain't from, you know, and it's crazy to say it,
but I could have been caught up in some some shit,
you know. I don't know how I got out of
those situations, and I must have had someone looking over
me or I ain'tel on my shoulder that that evening.
(33:16):
But there were multiple occasions where things could have could
have turned left and I could have been caught up
in a situation that wouldn't have ended well for either
me or the other person.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
It's not until many years later when Doesmond hears Keith's
name again, Ken tells him Keith is on death row
for killing five people during the Lucasville Uprising.
Speaker 11 (33:43):
And was like, whoa, whoa Keith Lamar Keith I played
with at Saint Tham's. He's he's on death row, Like
are you serious?
Speaker 5 (33:55):
For what? And it's just like unbelievable.
Speaker 11 (33:59):
It's just it was something that I couldn't even wrap
my mind around, Like it can't be the same guy
who I played little league football with. Now I know
guys who were in prison. I've had family members in
prison for doing things out you know, the illegal things,
But I've never ever known anybody to be on death row.
Speaker 5 (34:22):
And so when I heard that.
Speaker 11 (34:25):
He was supposed to be the leader of a death squad,
I was thinking, like, how could this person?
Speaker 5 (34:37):
Now, Like I said, none of us were angels.
Speaker 11 (34:40):
You know, we did what we had to do when
we had to do whatever we had to do to
survive for the most part, But to be labeled as
the leader of a death squad, like I just never
would imagine keep having that type of like hate in
his heart, that he would be a leader of a
(35:02):
death squad. So my whole thought process was, how did
they come to this conclusion and what's the evidence?
Speaker 3 (35:11):
In time, Desmond makes the trip to see Keith at
the Ohio State Penitentiary. It would be the first time
seeing each other since they were kids.
Speaker 11 (35:21):
Visited someone in prison before, but never on death row.
So I didn't know what it would take. And I
was excited to see my old friend.
Speaker 5 (35:28):
I really was.
Speaker 11 (35:29):
And if you ever see the pictures that we took,
I was.
Speaker 5 (35:35):
I got back home and I got to tell.
Speaker 11 (35:38):
You, Leah, I was looking at the picture that I
took and I was conflicted because when you see it, like,
if you know me, I'm a person that has I
have a big personality as far as like smiling, I
smiled big, I laughed loud, I laughed hard. It's just
who I am. And so I'm visiting my old teammate
(36:01):
and I'm looking at this is my man, this is Keith,
you know, and so that's what the smile says. But
the predicament is it's completely opposite that. And since it's
completely opposite that, I'm like, damn, maybe I shouldn't have
been smiling so fucking hard, you know. Yeah, And I
(36:22):
was conflicted about that, I really was. But it just
shows you that that's what he brings out in me,
because that's what he is to me, even under those circumstances.
My man is chained to this table, he's on death road,
but when I see him, that's what comes out of
(36:43):
me because that's the energy I get from him. It
speaks to the true nature of our relationship and.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
Who Keith is to me.
Speaker 11 (36:55):
You know, my dad was very fond of Keith, and
I always look at my dad as a great judge
of character. He used to help Keith out, unbeknownst to me,
even sometimes financially, you know, get him a few dollars
here or there, and but that's.
Speaker 5 (37:13):
Just how my dad is.
Speaker 11 (37:14):
But he he wouldn't have done that for everybody or anybody,
and that just speaks to.
Speaker 5 (37:21):
To how how he saw Keith too. When I went
to visit Keith.
Speaker 11 (37:26):
He had mentioned that, yeah, take your dad, I owe him,
you know X amount of dollars.
Speaker 5 (37:32):
These are like seven dollars.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Oh my god.
Speaker 5 (37:36):
Yeah, I was like one of the first things he said.
He's funny that way. Mm.
Speaker 11 (37:42):
It's tough, it is, it's really tough. The reason why
it's so hard, it's simply because it's not that I'm
saying I know what happened that the riot. It's not
(38:06):
that I'm saying Keith is innocent or guilty of anything
that he was accused of. It's so rough, Leah, because
he did not get a fair trial. At the end
of the day, that's all anybody could ever ask for
(38:30):
in this judicial system is a fair trial. And because
the evidence is clearly there that things were withheld, he
didn't get a fair trial.
Speaker 5 (38:43):
That's what makes it.
Speaker 11 (38:45):
So such a bitter pill to swallow, Leah. It really
is that they want to kill this man.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
For Keith.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Twenty twenty two and twenty twenty three so far have
been busy between the ongoing Freedom First concerts being performed
around the world and the weekly book club sessions he
runs as part of his native Son's Literacy project. Keith
was also a guest speaker and recognized at the eighth
(39:28):
World Congress against the Death Penalty in Berlin. He was
a featured narrator for Samora Pinder Hughes's concert at Carnegie
Hall and contributed spoken word poetry for Mia Pearlman's multi
media sculpture at Michigan State University.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
I've spent the past in a half decades than to
do something Iverer spoke with my life, not because I
thought it might get me out of prison, but just
because I didn't want to waste my one and only life.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
But says, the one thing that's been missing the last
several years has been a legal team actively fighting to
get him back into court. And then, unbelievably, as I'm
nearing the end of my research and conducting interviews, a
new attorney comes on board.
Speaker 9 (40:18):
My name is Keegan Stephan.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
Keigan agrees to speak with me over Zoom.
Speaker 9 (40:23):
I'm from Alaska, originally moved to New York to go
to undergrad. Went to undergrad for creative writing. I sort
of worked as a writer journalist for a while, got
very involved in advocacy work, ultimately focused on racial justice
issues Black Lives Matter organizations in that capacity, and doing that,
(40:44):
decided that I wanted to go to law school.
Speaker 5 (40:45):
I thought that was sort of the best way I
could help out.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
While in law school, Keegan works with the Innocence Project. Eventually,
he is hired as an associate at belldoc Levigne and Hoffman,
a civil rights boutique law firm in New York City,
where he works today. The firm has handled some pretty
famous cases, like the exoneration of Reuben Hurricane Carter.
Speaker 9 (41:10):
Another big case that the firm handled was representing four
of the Central Park Five, the people who were wrongfully
convicted of the Central Park jogger rape case, made famous
by the fact that Donald Trump took out a whole
page ad in the New York Times calling for their execution.
Turns out they were innocent. This firm also litigated the
Stop in Friss case, which was the case that ultimately
(41:30):
held that the New York City Police Department stopping for
his program was a violation of the equal Protection class.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
But It's In late twenty twenty two, while playing a
pickup game of basketball, Keegan learns about Keith.
Speaker 9 (41:45):
One of the people who plays is one of Keith
Lamar's primary non legal advocates. Wally White, himself a pretty
exceptional individual hosts podcast about mental health issues in the
black community, whially gave me a copy of Keith's book.
I then started researching his case, read the court decisions,
and you know, just reading the state Supreme Court decision
(42:08):
and the federal habeas decision, it was very clear to
me that at minimum, he did not get a fair trial,
that there were tons of improprieties. And speaking with him
and speaking with his advocacy team and other sort of
people in the know legally in Ohio, it seems pretty
clear to me that he is innocent. So I said
I would be happy to help out.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
To be clear, Keegan is at the very beginning of
taking on Keith's case. He hasn't even received all of
the files from Keith's federal defenders yet. But because this
is the first time I am able to speak with
an attorney who is actually representing Keith, I decide to
try and get at least a few of my questions answered.
(42:51):
Have you seen a list of what was actually turned
over from the prosecution to the defense? Is there a
log of what exactly was turned over?
Speaker 5 (43:02):
Not that I'm aware of.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Yeah, I definitely haven't seen that.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
So and as we know that there's no DNA evidence
linking Keith to any of the crimes that he was
convicted of, or anyone, like there's no physical evidence tying
any of the people who were convicted to any of
the victims. I had heard somewhere along the way that
when Keith and the three hundred men who were out
on the yard were brought inside the gym and then
(43:30):
put in the K block cells, that their clothes were
all put in a big heap and they were eventually burned.
And that's destroying evidence, right.
Speaker 9 (43:40):
Yeah, it certainly doesn't seem like a proper investigation to
burn a bunch of potential evidence. I've heard that story
as well, and that story only mentions the clothing of
the people who survived. I want to pull out that
thread a little bit more. It doesn't seem out of
the question to me that maybe some of the clothing
(44:00):
of some of the victims still exists somewhere, and if
it does, that should be DNA testing.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
So you know, there are at least two other guys
who were beaten, basically left for dead, but survived. There
was a guy named Itchie Walker, and then this guy
Andre Stockton, and I interviewed Andre Stockton. He was in
a coma for two weeks. After I asked him what
he remembered, he said that he remembers Keith being there.
(44:29):
Why do you think if Keith was the leader of
this death squad, why would they give him a pass
on Itchy Walker and Andre Stockton.
Speaker 9 (44:37):
It doesn't make sense, particularly from the prosecutor's perspective. If
you have two living witnesses who were victims, they could
have had these people come in and testify that he was,
you know, the leader of the death squad, and that
would have very much tied together and supported their case.
It's hard to imagine stronger evidence than that. It's definitely
(44:59):
strong than the people who were not involved or victims,
and so that seems suspicious.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
Keigan says what needs to happen now is a full
reinvestigation into Keith's case in the hopes that they will
uncover some newly discovered evidence that could get them back
into state court. But the voluminous file is going to
take an army of people to go through it all.
So Keegan is in the process of seeking the help
(45:28):
of others like law school clinics and large firms, pro
bono departments.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
How do you feel about your chances?
Speaker 9 (45:36):
I and every other person remotely close to this case,
including many attorneys who know about it, believe that our
reinvestigation will uncover a lot of newly discovered evidence that
will warrant a new trial.
Speaker 3 (45:51):
And Keith's execution data set for November sixteenth, twenty twenty three.
There is an unofficial moratorium in the state on executions.
But how does that affect you or not affect your plan?
You're taking that date as a real date, right, like
you're finding the clock at this point, right.
Speaker 9 (46:08):
You know what matters is what matters to Keith, and
he certainly doesn't see that data as fake. I also
don't really know what an unofficial moratorium is. That sounds
pretty meaningless to me. So yeah, we're acting with you know,
as much urgency as we can.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
A little over a month after my interview with Keegan,
a potential bombshell drops into my inbox. I am sent
a two thousand and seven affidavit written by Howard Hudson,
retired staff lieutenant from the Ohio State Highway Patrol. He
testified at Keith's nineteen ninety five trial that there was
no physical evidence that came back linked to anybody. Well,
(46:49):
in mister Hudson's affidavit, he had a bit more to
say on this matter. Quote, all physical evidence tangible items
collected during the investigation of the Lucasville disturbance, insofar as
not presented as evidence in a criminal prosecution, was destroyed
(47:10):
per the authorization of the lead prosecutor and myself. Okay,
so Howard Hudson said he and the lead prosecutor. I mean,
is he talking about Mark Petemeyer because pete Meyer was
the lead slash special prosecutor on the Lucasville cases. Anyway,
(47:31):
Hudson said he and the lead prosecutor gave the go
ahead to have physical evidence destroyed. Now we don't know
when or what evidence exactly was destroyed, but that seems
like quite an admission. Keith never knew about the affidavit
until now, but he says he's not completely surprised by it.
(47:55):
He firmly believes there's so much more out there like it,
and once Keegan and the new team take a long,
hard look at his case, they will discover what is
needed to get him back into court and a chance
at a new trial.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
That's really the final piece that I need. Somebody who
prepared to dosy on my case, and like Golfin, you
know how you take your car and you do the
diagnostic and you can see all the things that's wrong
with your car. I'm hoping that somebody is able to
do that on my legal situation, because you know, that's
the only way really to fix this.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
It's hard to believe, but the time has come. This
is our last episode. I actually didn't want to write it.
I had some kind of mental block about putting an
end to the season, an end to Keith's story, an
end of any kind to.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
It at all.
Speaker 3 (48:54):
What started as a reinvestigation morphed into something very different.
Was it perfect reporting? No, how could it be. I
didn't have access to the majority of the documents or
certain people, like the prosecutors. But in the course of
(49:14):
these eleven months and almost ninety hours of interviews, I've
learned a lot about Lucasville, the uprising, Keith and his case.
I've also learned a lot about myself.
Speaker 12 (49:32):
Yeah, so I don't even really know how to I'm
gonna start crying. I don't even really know how to
ask you this, because so I'm writing the last episode
this this conversation will go into the last episode November sixteenth.
(49:57):
What do you think when you think about that date approach.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
I don't think about that day a lot, and I
know it's there, but I don't. I don't look at
it as like a destination that I have a one
day arrived. Look that my life is a process which
requires your full attention right here in the moment. Amy
was compiling some information for someone the other day and
(50:24):
I had to kind of go through all the things
that we have accomplished over the past several years, and
it's a lot. And I told her that she was
starting to share that with me. Like Amy, I don't
want to hear about it. I don't want to know
how much we've done. I'm just want to focus right
here on this moment. I think if I started thinking
(50:45):
about November sixteenth, somehow I'm bleeding to what I'm doing
and take away from the urgency. Because I live with
the reality that, you know, I can die the night
in my sleep. All of us can, so I don't
really you know, not putting my head in the sand.
(51:05):
The opposite of that, I'm bringing as much as I
Usta can to the moment every day I can possibly do.
Board off destly murdered by these people. I take them
that they were the history of this country. They're fully
(51:26):
capable of carrying, you know, execution out so I know
all those things. So there's nothing really to think about
with that respect. So you know, I'll deal with that
when I get there. My focus is or is centered
on right now. Time between now and then we'll move.
(51:47):
Fasts have gone by, you know, rather quickly. So it's
and when that time comes and that one day find
myself stop to a journey, it won't be because I
didn't do everything in my power. And you know that's
when I focus on to make sure I do everything
I can possibly do, so when if that time comes,
(52:08):
I can uh uh, don't out the shadow of a
doubt that I Q f Lamar have done everything to
stand up and represent this, this one and only life
that I've been given. It's just life that I have.
I fought for it that I you know, I stood
(52:30):
up and I you know represented it to the best
of my ability, and and and all the things that
Amy was trying to tell me about those things were
standing in my place. It for me. You know another thing.
Over the years, obviously, there's been quite a few people,
I think, and I show exactly a hundred or a
(52:53):
couple of hundred people who have been exonerating. I forget
there's that number, but it's a significant amount of people
who have been exonerating. I think I might one day
join you know, that list of people. But as I
as I, you know, go through my day that day,
I don't necessarily think about that so much in terms
(53:15):
of the outcome. But what I do think about is
the other people who I've seen in this position, and
how after thirty years of rome full conviction and everything
that entails, that they are so meek and so accommodating,
so forgiving people. I don't want these people to think
(53:40):
that what they have done to me, not to mention
what they intend to do somehow, Okay with me, Okay,
we'll keep from Marge not angry about this shit. Not
just the fact that y'all have given me an execution date,
but the ship, all the stuff y'all have done to
me up until this point. It's the ironic thing about
(54:01):
my situation, Lid that I would have gotten off easier
had I killed five people that's the kind of system
that we operate under. When I went back from my
everydentiary here in two thousand and seven, that Piker was
called put on the standing recess. He was at the
Elevator Bank and some of my friends were there, and
he was talking to somebody on the phone. He said, Man,
(54:24):
I can't he looked good. Man, I can't believe it,
you know, like you're a shock, like shit he had
them and that shit pretty good. You know, he looked good.
I got to give him that. He said something like that,
and to be honest with you, sowing am I throwing
am I? That's part of the reason why I don't
(54:44):
start to think about it, because you know, i'd just be,
you know, crying all the time. I didn't know I
had this in me. I didn't know it. I didn't
know I was this morning. I didn't know it. I
didn't know it. And I would have never known that
if I took that deal. I would never found that out,
(55:06):
never knew how amazing this life is. That I took
taken that deal and I did the thing that all
of us been given to do over and over again.
If you pour it, you black, you know, take the
easy way out. So I'm just a shot Mark Pete
myer self teaser, you know what I mean. But if
and when my time comes, they would know that how
(55:26):
I feel about them in this bullshit system and not
gonna you know, play the meet role, you know, the
you know, the forgiving slaves. Won't be able to go
home and put your kids in the bed because you're
gonna have to murder me, have to murder somebody when
that day comes. That's on everything I love, on everything
(55:50):
I love, You're gonna have to murder me. You there.
Speaker 3 (56:00):
Yeah, I'm still here with Keegan and the new team.
There's got to be some hope there, right.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
It's a lot of hope. So the hope is, like
I said, it's not on the outcome, it's you know,
on the things that we have done and achieved along
the way. All these things provide the hope. There's reason
to hope. Of course, your house on fire is one
thing to know that someone has called nine one one.
(56:29):
It's another thing is to hit sirens. All that contributes
to your hope that everything that you love, everything that
you work for, everything that you are will you know,
will be saved. But it's another thing to see the
holes being hooked up to the water hydrant, but then
see the water coming out of the holes and see
(56:52):
the water, you know, it stinks in the fire. I
hear the fire trucks coming, I know the call has
been made. I can hear the fire drugs come me,
but they haven't ariety that. Even while I'm hopeful, while
I'm also looking at my everything that I love burned down,
I'm anxious about, you know, about the whole thing. I
(57:12):
just say that to say that, you know, I'm in
proximity to the help that I need, the help that
I've been you know, praying and open for for so
many years. But until that, you know, that holds hop
to that that hydrant and that water start issuing force,
that justice start issuing force. You know, I'm gonna try to,
you know, contain myself.
Speaker 7 (57:34):
Yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (57:39):
Mean, so, you know, this will be our official, our official,
last conversation. I would hope that we could keep the
conversation going. I would like to keep talking.
Speaker 1 (57:58):
Well, glad sure that we're I feel similar. You have
one minute remaining.
Speaker 3 (58:15):
I would like to thank everyone who participated this season.
There are too many people to name here, but thank you.
And I would especially like to thank Keith. This wasn't
an easy story to tell, and clearly I couldn't have
done it without you all. I am grateful for your time, candor, patience,
(58:39):
generosity and graciousness.
Speaker 10 (58:42):
Whatever you had.
Speaker 1 (58:43):
A time to talk again, Let's talk again.
Speaker 2 (58:44):
You know, I'm not saying goodbye. I'm not saying goodbye.
Speaker 6 (58:49):
This is it.
Speaker 2 (58:50):
Okay, this is until we until we speak again. How
about that?
Speaker 1 (58:53):
Yeah? Okay, yeah, so we speak again. Yeah that sounds better. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (59:16):
For updates on Keith's story, please visit at The Real
Killer podcast on Instagram. The Real Killer is a production
of AYR Media and iHeartRadio, hosted by me Leah Rothman.
Executive producers Leah Rothman and Elisa Rosen for AYR Media.
(59:40):
Written by Leah Rothman, Executive producer Paulina Williams, Senior Associate
producer Jill Pusheznik. Coordinators George Famm and Melina Krajevsky. Editing
and sound design by Cameron Taggy, mixed and mastered by
Cameron Taggi. Audio and engineering by Matt Jacobson. Studio engineering
(01:00:03):
by Jay Brannan Legal counsel for a y R Media.
Gianni Douglas, executive producer for iHeartRadio, Maya Howard,
Host
Leah Rothman
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