The Real Killer Season 3: Ep. 9, More Questions Than Answers

Did Anastasia go home the night she was killed? Evidence like her clothing, purse, and what type of feminine product she was using suggest she may have made it home at some point. And a mysterious weapon found on her bed raises questions if a potential prior assault or confrontation took place there. If Anastasia did make it home, how did she get there? Why did she go back out? And how did she end up in Lincoln Cemetery?

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
A warning. This episode contains depictions of violence and conversations
about suicide that may be disturbing and triggering for some listeners.
If you are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please fast forward
to the end of this episode to find out where
help is available. As Byron Case's legal team is working

(00:23):
to chip away at what got their client convicted back
in two thousand and two, they consider finding the cleaner
version of the June fifth tacited mission tape a strong start.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
We've got the tape, which is a material mistake of
fact or fraud.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
But what else do they have?

Speaker 2 (00:42):
We have all this undisclosed evidence showing that Anastasia went
home and changed clothes.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Did Anastasia go home the night she was killed?

Speaker 3 (00:53):
I think she got a ride or she walked home,
but I think she went home.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
I'm Leah Rothman. This is the Real Killer. Episode nine
more questions than answers before we talk about whether or
not Anastasia possibly went home on the night of October
twenty second, nineteen ninety seven. There's someone who might be

(01:32):
able to shed some light on what happened when Byron
returned home that night. Knock knock, Hi, how are you
is it okay to come next? Okay? Thank you, Napoleon Perez.
He was dating Byron's mom, Evelyn Case and living with
them back in nineteen ninety seven. Hikay cat such a

(01:56):
lovely home. Napoleon's ever spoken before. Investigators never interviewed him
during the almost three years the case was open and unsolved. Today,
more than twenty seven years after the fact, Napoleon has
agreed to talk with me at his home in Kansas City.

(02:18):
I ask, for recording purposes, if we can go to
the quietest room in the house. Napoleon suggests a bedroom
a little atypical, but Napoleon seems harmless, and his wife
is watching TV not far away in the living room.
Napoleon is originally from Ecuador. In the mid nineties, he
was living in Chicago. He actually met Evelyn while traveling

(02:40):
in Europe and they hit it off right away. Napoleon
says he moved to Kansas City around nineteen ninety six
ninety seven. He and Evelyn married around two thousand and
one two thousand and two, and they divorced some years later.
I start off by asking Napoleon about his first impression
of Byron.

Speaker 4 (03:00):
He was quiet, He was organized. That was I was
impressed here was everything was clean or unorganized. We don't
really talk too much because my English, they say, now
it's that great. But then I.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
Then move on to asking what Napoleon remembers from the
night Anastasia was killed. So on October twenty second, nineteen
ninety seven, and I realized it's decades ago now, But
you know, Byron goes out with Justin, Anastasia and Kelly

(03:33):
and comes home and Evelyn said that you two were
sitting on the sofa watching a movie when he came
home that night. Do you remember him coming home that night?

Speaker 4 (03:45):
Yeah? He usually came say we even now, or go
straight to his room. He was in the computer. The
only thing I was remember so clear because I was
kind of mild because I usually was janitors or sleeping late.
He came early and Justin was calling him so many times,
says why don't answer the phone. He said, well, he

(04:06):
was sleeping. I talked to tomorrow and then the next
day he said, oh, just on his best friend. And
then I was feel bad because I was on the
English to answer the phone. Why don't answer the phone,
because he said I was tired. I don't want to
talk to him. Oh and nobody. I said, I talk
to tomorrow, and that was the last time because and

(04:27):
then I feel bad because.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
Napoleon says, back then he was working as a janitor,
mostly the night shift, and the reason he remembers this
evening in particular is really because he remembers the next morning.
He remembers Justin calling early, getting annoyed that Byron didn't
want to answer the phone, then feeling awful after learning
Justin had taken his own life. I'm surprised to hear

(04:52):
Justin called multiple times that morning. It's the first time
I'm hearing this, knowing Byron usually slept late. Why would
Justin need to talk to Byron so desperately? Although maybe
Justin called once and the phone just rang and rang
and rang before Evelyn answered it. I email Evelyn about this,
and she says she remembers the phone rang only once.

(05:16):
She was at her desk at the time, so she
picked it up right away. Next, I asked Napoleon what
he remembers about Byron's demeanor when he got home the
night of the twenty seconds. Did he seem weird or
off or no?

Speaker 4 (05:30):
I must see you've calmed. I don't really see anything.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
That night, he like, I think, according to Evelyn, like
went through to the kitchen and then maybe just went
to his bedroom and was on the computer. Did you
hear him on the computer? You knew he was on
the computer?

Speaker 4 (05:46):
He well, I mean were watching TV, but he was
always in the computer, he was.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
Is there any possibility that Byron went back out that
night after you and Evelyn went to bed.

Speaker 4 (06:00):
I don't remember that. I don't know. I usually got
the time go to better and go better and then
I don't know if he left or not.

Speaker 1 (06:08):
Would you have heard him?

Speaker 4 (06:10):
If I think so, it opened the or that door
is kind of squeeze, but yeah, that's quiet.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
It was a squeaky door. Yes. Do you remember seeing
Byron after he found out that Anastasia had been killed?
Did he say anything? How did he act?

Speaker 4 (06:27):
He was sad?

Speaker 1 (06:28):
He was sad. Did Evelyn or Byron seem concerned that
he was talking with police?

Speaker 4 (06:35):
No? Not at all.

Speaker 1 (06:35):
Did investigators ever interview you?

Speaker 5 (06:38):
No?

Speaker 1 (06:39):
And you, I guess you didn't volunteer to go to
police and say.

Speaker 4 (06:44):
At the same time and never asked me, well, I
say we because Byron evident and myself, which everything is okay,
so we not be nothing. I will worry about it.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
But then after he was arrested, did you think maybe
I should go to the police and tell him I
saw on that night at.

Speaker 4 (07:01):
The same time, what am I supported to say? Nobody
asking me, so I said, hey, I was there even
now and I could say I surprised recording.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
And I said, you're surprised by Michael.

Speaker 4 (07:10):
Yes, I remember clear everything happened with details. But then
but now it's I don't remember. I was bothering in
that time. That's all a.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
Mom wants to believe the very best of their son.
Do you think Evelyn has like a blind spot when
it no.

Speaker 4 (07:32):
That she is you know, we was a couple for
so many years that she's anguish. There's a matter who
is the person?

Speaker 1 (07:40):
If Byron committed this crime, she would not have any problems.

Speaker 4 (07:46):
No, I would even.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
Know like going to police and saying, like, I know
my son.

Speaker 4 (07:49):
Even though she was to me because I was that
said no, no, I believe No. He was so so
nice with my cats. He was there with your cats,
but they were so friendly, the animals. I don't think
he is mean or anything. No, I believe. If I'll
be honest, I don't think he did it. They crime

(08:11):
that night.

Speaker 1 (08:12):
We next talk about the June fifth. We should shouldn't
talk about this call. Napoleon says. That week Kelly was
calling the house a lot.

Speaker 4 (08:23):
Yes, oh yeah, that week she was crazy calling. She
was calling several days, two four days, and that we
and sometimes I'm here in the morning or the evening.
Some bider sleep, sometimes don't answer the phone or photo
volume and then said hello, it's Byron there says no,
it's not here. Sometimes yeah, he is here. There's Biron.

(08:43):
Somebody asked for Biro. Hey, Birom, somebody call you.

Speaker 1 (08:47):
On June fifth, two thousand and one, around eleven thirty pm,
Byron finally answered Kelly. During that recorded call, Byron was
Byron living here?

Speaker 4 (08:58):
Was he living here?

Speaker 1 (08:59):
He was here?

Speaker 4 (09:00):
Yeah, I was adjusted here this house here, Yes, who's
a disapartment? This room, this.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
Room where we're recording your interview right now. This is
a room where he took the call from Kelly that night.

Speaker 4 (09:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
So after that call, did he have any feelings like,
oh shit, I just you know, might have gotten myself
in trouble.

Speaker 4 (09:22):
Or not at all until he was more because he
was sick. But no, he was normal to me. And
then he one day he was arrested. I was surprised, why,
how when did.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
You ever ask Byron after he was arrested did you
do this?

Speaker 6 (09:41):
No?

Speaker 4 (09:41):
I never really ask here. I don't need to ask him.
I believe.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
Was he arrested here?

Speaker 5 (09:47):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (09:48):
And this house this is where swat came through.

Speaker 4 (09:52):
That is why evident don't want to be here. She
had about memories and then the two three days then
and the court that was the town we know. That
was the recording. That was the police give it to
and that was to me, in my opinion, that was
the one, says biskuilty.

Speaker 1 (10:12):
You think the tape is what did him ins Yes.
I asked Napoleon how Byron's conviction and incarceration affected Evelyn.

Speaker 4 (10:23):
She was, yeah, she was really sad. Trying to support her,
but yeah, she was a good person, good woman, wife,
and she had the son.

Speaker 7 (10:36):
No.

Speaker 4 (10:36):
I don't know how I say it, but she was
crying every day. I'm trying to but nothing we can do.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
I see you getting emotional. It took a toll on her,
on you on the relationship.

Speaker 4 (10:53):
Oh yeah, because she now was the same. That was
not the same. And like I said, I believed in Bio.
I'll never believe anybody. He can't kill anybody.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
He's not capable of killing someone.

Speaker 4 (11:05):
That's my belief. I believe it can to me.

Speaker 1 (11:09):
Obviously, Evelyn has been hurting because her only son is
in prison for life and she believes he's innocent. I
can only imagine the constant pain and sadness Anastasia's family
feels with the loss they've suffered. So Napoleon is Byron's alibi,
but only if the murder happened after Byron got home.

(11:32):
Although Napoleon can't say for sure that Byron didn't go
back out that night, Kelly says the murder happened before
Byron got home. If that's what in fact happened, that
makes Napoleon as an alibi a moot point. Right now,
Let's talk about Anastasia and whether or not she went home.

(11:54):
You've heard it dozens of times already. Byron's lawyers believe
Anastasia got out of Justin's car at t Truman Roade
and the I four thirty five. Don Rand at the
Amico station said he saw her there and there was
also the father daughter at the Phillip sixty sixth station
who allegedly saw someone they thought might be Anastasia use

(12:15):
the payphone. If all of that is true, then what
happened next? Did Anastasia ever make it home that night?
It's an important question because her dad, Bob Whitbolesfugen, seemed
to think she did, and I believe it first comes
up on November twenty one, nineteen ninety seven, during a
conversation between Bob and Sergeant Gary Kilgore. Kilgore writes in

(12:39):
his report, quote mister Whitble's Fugen believes Anastasia returned to
his house after Justin picked her up. Mister Whitbles Vugen
believes that Anastasia returned to the house to change clothes
for the evening, and she must have been there between
nineteen hundred and nineteen thirty. That's military time for seven
and seven thirty. Kill Gore continues, quote, mister whipples Fugen

(13:03):
asked if we have been able to confirm this, and
I told him I had no indication from anyone that
they had went back to her house that evening. Bob
then writes emails to Sergeant Kilgore about this. The first
one is dated December thirtieth, nineteen ninety seven, so that's
a little more than two months after Anastasia's death. Bob

(13:24):
starts off by thanking Sergeant Kilgore for interviewing dairy queen
worker Don Wright and Mount Washington Cemetery caretaker Glenn Calliver.
He continues with quote, the time is just before eight pm,
after dark. Certainly, the fact that the clothing description differs
from the five thirty pm sightings indicates that she must

(13:46):
have returned to our house to change clothes, but with whom.
So that's Bob's first email about Anastasia possibly going home.
Bob writes another email a few days later, on January
Tewodeen ninety eight, subject line blue jeans. You heard about
this email in episode three Bob Wright's quote, I don't

(14:09):
remember if I ever told you. A couple of days
after her death, I opened the washing machine and inside
was a single pair of blue jeans. It was nothing unusual,
because I frequently do laundry and often found that the
girls had unfinished stuff in the wash. At the time,
it only served to remind me that she was gone
and life goes on. Then, after my talk with Glenn Cliver.

(14:32):
It served as an important fact that she had returned
to the house and in fact had time and thought
to put it in the wash. Also in the wash
basin in the basement, next to the washing machine was
a pair of her underwear soaking. Here's one of Byron's attorneys,
Nicole Gordon, So.

Speaker 3 (14:51):
We know from what Don Wright told us that Don
said Anastatia was wearing socks, Birkenstock like style sandals, and
baggy blue jeans. Those aren't the clothes she was found in.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
Anastasia was found in black jeans, black Doc Martin's shoes,
a gray shirt, and a tan corduroy jacket. So if
Bob found Anastasia's blue jeans and underwear clothes that seemed
to match what dairy Queen worker Don Wright said she
was wearing, that did Anastasia somehow go home and change?

(15:25):
I do wonder how well did Bob know Anastasia's clothes
and undergarments? How do we know the jeans and underwear
didn't belong to Anastasia's sister Francesca. It needs to be
said that Francesca has never wavered on what Anastasia was
wearing when she left the house for Mount Washington Cemetery

(15:46):
the afternoon of October twenty second, which was black jeans,
her black Doc Martin's shoes, and a tan coat, which
are the same clothes Anastasia was found in at Lincoln Cemetery.
We'll talk more about this in just a bit. Bob
then sends a third email to Sergeant Kilgore. This one's

(16:06):
dated January eleventh, nineteen ninety eight, and it comes with
a photo. We also mentioned this email in episode three,
subject line purse. Bob writes, quote, is this possibly the
purse that Don w said that Anastasia reportedly had at
the DQ? She said it wasn't over the shoulder one

(16:28):
just like this. Here's Nicole again.

Speaker 3 (16:32):
Don also said that Anastata had a purse, which is
interesting because it was a unique purse. The purse had
a long strap and instead of being a square, it
was a rectangle purse, so it was short but wide.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
Don Wright describes the purse to Sergeant Kilgore as quote
brown in color zipper top. The purse was nine to
ten inches long and eight two nine inches in height.
We've posted the photo of the purse on the Real
Killer podcast on Instagram. Does it look to you like
Anastasia's purse matches? Dawn writees description of what she said

(17:10):
Anastasia was carrying that night. Now we're talking about the purse.
But what's interesting is that Bob brings up Anastasia's billfold
before any of this. He mentions her bill fold to
Sergeant Ron Kellogg. On October twenty third, nineteen ninety seven,
the day Anastasia was found in Lincoln Cemetery, Bob says, quote,

(17:32):
she left her billfold here and driver's license and credit card.
By the way, a bill fold is a thinner wallet.
I wonder could the billfold be the same thing as
the purse. Then five days later, on October twenty eighth,
in Bob's recorded interview with Sergeant Kilgore, the bill fold
comes up again.

Speaker 4 (17:53):
Say when you're.

Speaker 6 (17:53):
Winning your hat and in a conversation about a station, no.

Speaker 4 (18:02):
Francesca.

Speaker 6 (18:03):
I looked in the living room and she was already
sitting at the computer terminal. I guess the kitchen light
was on, and the light to the stairway was on
up the stairs, and so I looked up in that direction,
and I think I saw my daughter's builhole lying on

(18:25):
the stairway rail there, and I remember picking it up
and running up the room, thinking, oh goodness, she's home.
And when I got up there, I looked around her room.
She wasn't there. Back down the hallway, didn't seem like
any other lights in the house were on. I said, look,

(18:45):
she's not home. Kind of disappointed. I was excited that
she was home and safe after the big ordeal that
I've been feeling, and.

Speaker 4 (18:58):
She's nowhere to be found. I went down.

Speaker 6 (19:01):
And I think I asked, Francesca, is Anastasia here?

Speaker 8 (19:05):
I don't think so.

Speaker 4 (19:06):
I just got home my style.

Speaker 8 (19:07):
If I don't know.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
So.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
With all of this, could don Wright have been mistaken
in her description of what Anastasia was wearing, including the
purse she says Anastasia was carrying. Unfortunately, Kilgore never collected
the genes or purse slash billfold to show don Wright.
That might have cleared up some of this confusion. But

(19:35):
if don Wright was correct about Anastasia's clothes and purse
that night, might there be more to the story. Anastasia's father,

(19:56):
Bob Whitbolsfuchen, believed that on the night of October twenty second,
his daughter came home and changed her clothes. He said
he found her blue jeans in the washing machine and
a pair of her underwear. Soaking in a sink doesn't
make it fact because, as we know, Bob said a
lot of things that turned out to not be true.
But is there more evidence that says Anastasia did make

(20:17):
it home. Here's Byron's attorney, Nicole Gordon.

Speaker 3 (20:22):
Anastasia started her period while she was out. We know
that because of what Don Wright told Sergeant Kilgore that
she needed a tampon and she didn't have one. We
know she used the tampon because she used the Dairy
Queen restroom was a private restroom. It wasn't open for public,

(20:42):
and when the manager or owner of Dairy Queen was
the owner used the bathroom after Anastasia. He sees the
tampon wrapper in the trash, and Anasta hadn't flushed the toilet,
so there was blood in the toilet as well, so
we know.

Speaker 1 (20:56):
Here's Byron's investigator, Quinn O'Brien.

Speaker 9 (21:00):
So we know that Anastasia is using a tampon when
she's picked up by Byron and Kelly and Justin. There
are two people on the team who have periods and
know a little something about it. So when we were
reading the autopsy report and found that she was in

(21:21):
a pad that was not soiled, and that her underwear
was also clean, we were like, wait a second, So
she's using a tampon, but she's found in the cemetery
with a pad and clean underwear, and that doesn't check out.
Gravity is going to make sure that that pad has

(21:41):
something on it. But the pad that she's found and
is clean, and so is her underwear, and I suspect
that on her old underwear there was probably some blood,
and in fact, what Bob finds in the laundry room
confirms this to me. Bob finds her underwear soaking in
the sink, which again anyone with a period knows. You
get a little blood on your underwear, you put it
in cold water for a little bit to soak. Bob

(22:04):
fines light colored jeans and when John Wright says that
she saw Anastasia, don Wright says that she was in
light colored jeans, she had to have gone home. If
she hadn't gone home, she would still be wearing a
tampon and there would be blood spotting on her underwear.

Speaker 1 (22:19):
According to Anastasia's mother, Betsy Owens, her daughter had a
strong dislike for blood. Here she is talking about that
in her interview with Sergeant Kilbour.

Speaker 8 (22:30):
An act of at ten plus. I knew that she
just doesn't like blood at all. We should just go
freak out. And she got a little cut from the
time she was a kid, and she didn't like menstal
periods because of waiting in that type of thing, and
she just does not like blood at all.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
So, considering Anastasia's intense feelings about blood, would she have
made it a priority to go home and change her underwear,
her jeans and tampon or pad. It still doesn't answer
the question why was Anastasia found wearing a clean pad
and not a tampon if that's what don Wright gave her?

(23:10):
And I have another question, and it goes back to
what Quinn said about gravity. Let's say for the sake
of argument, Anastasia was given a pad not a tampon
at the Dairy Queen, then killed a short time after,
like Kelly said she was. That would be less time
for gravity to take hold and less time for any

(23:32):
blood to show up on the pad. So maybe she
could have died with a clean pad. I don't know
what to make of the clean underwear part of this,
But if Anastasia had been given a tampon and she
went home to change from a tampon to a pad
and was killed later that night, wouldn't that mean there's

(23:53):
more time for gravity to take over and more time
for blood to end up on the pad. Although you know,
periods are weird, like you can go from bleeding to
not to back to bleeding. Maybe Anastasia was killed during
one of those breaks in the bleeding. Also, I still
really wonder did Don Write really give Anastasia a tampon

(24:18):
or did she give her a pad? I asked Nicole
about that, because Don did change her story. Don first
says it was a pad. Then a trial she says
it was a tampon.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
Well, that she was found wearing an unsoiled pad, and
Don says that she gave Anna Stasia a tampon. Don
knows that it was a tampon because according to her,
that's all she used since she was twelve. She wouldn't
have given her a pad, and so that's that's very
important fact. It means that Anastesa could not have gone

(24:52):
directly from dairy Queen to where she was found, and
that Kelly's stories a lie.

Speaker 1 (25:02):
So let me break this down for you. In nineteen
ninety seven, Don Wright tells Sergeant Kilgore she gave Anastasia
a pad. Actually, she says she didn't have anything with her,
so she called her husband, who brought a pad to
the dairy Queen. Then, at trial, almost five years later,
she says it was actually a tampon she gave Anastasia.

(25:25):
When prosecutor Teresa Crayon cross examines Don about this discrepancy,
don says, quote, it was a tampon, and I know
I told that guy that I just couldn't think of
a polite name. Don finally says she knows it was
a tampon because since she was thirteen or fourteen, she's
used nothing but a tampon. Here's Byron's attorney, Brian Russell.

Speaker 2 (25:50):
When it came to the tampon and the pad stuff,
I just kept thinking, like, well she made you know,
don Wright must have made a mistake, or you know,
she was mixed up about what she gave Anastasia. And
for a while I was not. I didn't believe the
she went home theory and It was only when Quinn

(26:10):
and Nicole and Amanda are paralegal were like, no, women
know what product they use, She's not gonna mistake that.
And you know, I'm a guy. I've never had a period,
and so having that perspective and listening to it really did.
I mean, that was a big part of breaking this

(26:33):
open and realizing, well, shoot, she went home just like
everyone said. And then looking at those emails where Bob
says I found her blue jeans in the washing machine.
I found a pair of her underwear soaking in the
utility sync those that's what she was wearing at Dairy Queen.
And if those made it home, that means she went home.

(26:54):
And if she went home, Byron didn't do it.

Speaker 1 (26:56):
And so sadly, Don Wright passed away in twenty twenty one.
The only other person who can answer the tampon versus
pad question is Don Wright's husband from that time. He's
the one who actually brought whatever it was to the
Dairy Queen. I get him on the phone, and it
is a major understatement to say he was annoyed by

(27:19):
my call and my questions. He remembers that Don worked
at the Dairy Queen and that's about it. We don't
know if Anastasia preferred a tampon over a pad, but
we do know from her mother's police interview that she
hated the sight of blood. On November fifth, nineteen ninety seven,
when Kilgore goes to the Whitbol's Fugen house and looks

(27:40):
in Anastasia's room, he writes in his report, quote inside
a box setting on the floor, I observed several items.
Included were numerous unused tampons. I asked mister Whitpble's Fugen
if these belonged to Anastasia, and he stated they did so.
Did she prefer tampon's or pads? Maybe what don Wright

(28:05):
first told kil Gore is true, that she gave Anastasia
a pad, and a pad is what she was found
dead in, which could mean that Anastasia went right from
the Dairy Queen to Mount Washington Cemetery to being killed
in Lincoln Cemetery, like Kelly said. At any rate, it
seems Sergeant Kilgore didn't spend any time investigating the genes,

(28:29):
the underwear, the purse, the pad versus tampon thing, or
whether or not Anastasia might have gone home here's Quinn again.

Speaker 9 (28:39):
We looked at Bob's emails, we looked at photographs from
the crime scene. We looked at the timeline starting with
don Wright's statements to the police and her testimony and
Don Rand's statements to the police, and we created a
timeline what we think is a much more accurate timeline,
and we found ourselves agreeing with Bob. We think Anastasia

(29:02):
went home that night. I think that dismissing things out
of hand, even from people that you don't believe have credibility,
you need to investigate. And I really think that Bob's
harassment of the clerks, and Bob's harassment of Detective kill
Gore and of the desk sergeants at Jackson County really

(29:23):
caused them to dismiss everything he said out of hand.
Do I trust everything Bob what Bill Sveegan says, Absolutely not?
Absolutely not. Do I think there's some truth in some
of what he said? Yes, because there are things in
the world and other people in the world who corroborate
what he said. When I have someone else telling me

(29:43):
the same story, or when I have physical evidence that
matches what he said, I'm going to take it more seriously.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
In one of my few calls with Bob, I try
to ask him about this. Bob, tell me about you
wrote to kill Gore and shared that you had found
Anastasia's jeans and underwear at the house. Can you tell
me about that?

Speaker 10 (30:08):
Yeah, No, I'm going to go there.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
Not going to go there now now I know I'm
talking about it, Okay.

Speaker 2 (30:20):
Was not?

Speaker 10 (30:20):
Was not part of the part of the scenario that way,
Taylor or.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
M yes, nom okay. So Bob doesn't want to talk
about it. There was something else I would have liked
to ask him. It has to do with something that
was found at his house, on Anastasia's bed. Actually, here's
Byron's attorney, Sean O'Brien.

Speaker 4 (30:47):
See.

Speaker 10 (30:47):
The other curious fact that nobody has talked about is
that on Anastasia's bed in the middle of it is
a stun gun. But nobody knows how did he get there,
why was it there?

Speaker 1 (31:00):
That's right. When Sergeant Ron Kellogg goes to the Whipple's
Fugen house on October twenty third to talk with Bob
and his wife Diane, he finds a stun gun believed
to be Anastasia's, on her bed, Sergeant's Kilgore and Kellogg
asked Kelly Moffett about it in her first interview the
day after Anastasia's body was found.

Speaker 7 (31:23):
Gun.

Speaker 6 (31:26):
You know what I'm talking about, like a taser type
of thing.

Speaker 3 (31:29):
Yeah, Now, well Byron had one him.

Speaker 6 (31:32):
And Justin like always bought like super little toys.

Speaker 4 (31:35):
But he doesn't have my fevors hit. They have like
number three hundred dollars.

Speaker 6 (31:40):
I never like looked at it closely.

Speaker 4 (31:42):
What is that one on a bay?

Speaker 8 (31:45):
It might have I'm not sure it might have been
Justin him and Byron bought one.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
I don't think Byron has this anymore, but Justin just
had all kinds of like real stuff. So Kelly says
she's not sure if Anastasia had a stun gun, but
she believes Byron and Justine at least at some point.
In Tara McDowell's February third, nineteen ninety eight interview, remember
Tara is part of that friend group, she is also

(32:10):
asked about the stun gun. I don't know the audio
for her interview, but I'll tell you what she says
because I have the transcript, which is that Anastasia did
own a stun gun, but she only carried it with
her on a few occasions. Tara says Byron had a
stun gun too. Tara then tells a troubling story that
one day they wanted to see how the stun gun

(32:33):
worked and quote, they didn't want to shock one of
the three of themselves. Not sure exactly who the three
she's referring to are, but Tara says, they quote tased
a drunk guy behind Mill Creek down in Westport. They
tased him. He was just sitting there on the steps,

(32:53):
and they walked up and stuck it to his neck,
held it there for a minute, then pulled it away.
Tara said, so she didn't think Anastasia's stun gun was
that powerful, and the guy was drunk, so she wasn't
sure it even phazed the guy anyway. Bob even talks
about the stun gun found on Anastasia's bed in his
interview with Kilgore back in November of nineteen ninety nine.

Speaker 6 (33:16):
The crime You asked me once if I had any
physical evidence from the crime scene, and I said no
at that time, and I started thinking, well, what possibly
could have been considered the crime scene? Since I'm assuming
it's the Lincoln Cemetery, at least by some scenarios. I'm thinking, okay,

(33:42):
I can reasonably suspect that my daughter was at my
home that evening, and that at my home that evening
or the next day, I discovered the stun gun, and
unfortunately that was never gathered as information as evidence, but

(34:06):
I think it may lead to a possible scenario the
confirmation thereof Unfortunately, mister Kellogg, who came out to the house,
handled that item and destroyed any possibility for that to
be used with fingerprint evidence.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
The stun gun isn't taken into evidence, and from what
I can tell, the Whippel's Fugen home is not searched
until November fifth, nineteen ninety seven, fourteen days after Anastasia
was murdered. Even at that time, the stun gun isn't
taken into evidence. So why was Anastasia's stun gun out

(34:44):
on her bed? What if anything happened at the house,
And again, if she really did go home, how did
she get there? Did she get a ride from someone
or did she walk? Remember Bob's wife, Diane allegedly said
that the cold back would do her good. But Diane
would have been talking about Anastasia walking the three plus

(35:05):
miles home around five point thirty pm. According to everyone
else who saw Anastasia that night, that walk home after
she allegedly got out of Justin's car would have happened
much later than that. Starting route to North Delaware Avenue, well,
I'm in Kansas City. I want to see what the

(35:26):
roughly three and a half mile walk from Truman Road
and the I four thirty five to Anastasia's house would
have been like. However, I don't walk it. I drive
it multiple times. According to Google Maps, driving it takes
about eight minutes. It says it would take an hour
and twenty four minutes to walk it. And remember that night,

(35:48):
Anastasia was either wearing Doc Martin's shoes or Birkenstock sandals
with socks. Can you imagine walking ninety minutes in slides
and socks. I record the early part of the drive,
which I will put on the Real Killer Podcast Instagram page. Okay, So,
starting out, Truman Road is a four lane road, two

(36:09):
lanes going each way, and there are no sidewalks for
a long stretch of it. Today there's a fireworks store
where in nineteen ninety seven, the Amico station used to
be the old Phillip sixty sixth station. Next door is
still a gas station, but with a different name, Erotic City.
The adult bookstore is still there. All of that is

(36:31):
on my right A short way up on Truman Road.
On my left is where an entrance to Lincoln's Cemetery
used to be. Today, that entrance is closed. As I
continue on, there are woods on both sides of Truman Road.
Then there's a bridge at the top of the hill.
That road is Blue Ridge Boulevard, where to the left

(36:53):
is the main entrance to Lincoln Cemetery. To the right
of that bridge is the Cimarron Apartments. That's where Bob
said he heard that eleven thirty pm gunshot come from
when he was standing nearby at Mount Washington Cemetery. As
I continue driving towards Anastasia's house, there are several homes, businesses,

(37:15):
high school, and in the distance you can see the
shiny spire of the Independence Mormon Temple. I drive a
bit longer than I come upon the National Historic Site,
the Truman Home, where Harry and best Truman lived after
they married in nineteen nineteen. It was their summer white
house while Harry Truman was president, and it's where they

(37:36):
lived after leaving Washington through Harry Truman's death in nineteen
seventy two. Just down the street from the Truman home
is where Anastasia lived. It's a lovely block with big
houses and mature trees. As I pass by her beautiful home,
I feel a wave of melancholy. I can't help but

(37:57):
think of what her life could have been. I can't
help but think of the sadness that must have filled
that house in the years after she died. I have
to say, And I realize I'm not Anastasia, and this
is pure speculation on my part, but after just driving
the route, I can't imagine walking it after dark, even

(38:20):
if I were super mad at my boyfriend, I kind
of just don't think that happened. And remember, Anastasia was
waiting for a ride to go to Mount Washington Cemetery
that day. If she wasn't willing to walk there, why
would she be okay with walking home. So maybe Anastasia
got a ride, or maybe what Kelly said was true,

(38:42):
Anastasia never made it home. If Anastasia made it home
that night, whether it was by car or on foot,
is still unknown. But if she did, there's almost a

(39:05):
bigger question still lingering. Here's Attorney Sean O'Brien.

Speaker 10 (39:10):
How did she get back out to the cemetery. I
do not know, We don't know. That's a non answered.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
Well, I'm in the area. I drive through Mount Washington Cemetery,
I go across the street to where the Dairy Queen
used to be, and of course I go to Lincoln Cemetery.
On this particular day, I asked Sean and his daughter,
investigator Quinn O'Brien, to meet me there. So here we
are at Lincoln Cemetery. Can you just sort of can

(39:39):
we go in? Yeah?

Speaker 9 (39:41):
Bet you bet.

Speaker 10 (39:41):
The gates are open today so that we could actually
drive in.

Speaker 9 (39:46):
The really nice marble sign. Right there is brand new
Lincoln's Cemetery sign over there. I was not here in
the nineties.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
We enter the main gate, which is the only entrance
that exists day, and walk the long, narrow road.

Speaker 9 (40:03):
Most of the headstones here are flat. It really doesn't
look like a cemetery until you get inside.

Speaker 10 (40:11):
This is a historically black cemetery. This was a black
neighborhood that neither city wanted, and so it's this odd
little bubble in between two cities that is not part
of a city. It's a vestige of racism in city government.
Soon we'll see Charlie Parker's grave. He is buried here,

(40:35):
and several Negro Leagues baseball players are buried here, So
it's really a historic cemetery.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
It is, but Charlie Parker, the famous jazz musician and composer,
was buried at Lincoln Cemetery in nineteen fifty five.

Speaker 10 (40:49):
You know, the other thing about this cemetery is how
isolated it is.

Speaker 5 (40:54):
Even though it is in the city.

Speaker 10 (40:57):
The only traffic you would see is on this road,
Blue Ridge cut Off, that goes north and south along
the eastern boundary of the cemetery. When you look south,
there's thick woods and at the bottom of the hill,
but you can't see it from here is Truman Road.

Speaker 5 (41:19):
We've been out.

Speaker 10 (41:19):
Here in the dark, and it is dark. And then
looking to the north, it's even more heavily wooded, and
it's probably half a mile to three quarters of a
mile before you would see the next house to the
north of here. So on all four sides it's surrounded
by woods.

Speaker 9 (41:39):
There are no lights here at all.

Speaker 1 (41:41):
No light poles.

Speaker 10 (41:44):
Right, no sources of ground lights.

Speaker 9 (41:49):
We're just about to the spot where Anastasia was found.
There's a loop at the top of the hill where
the roads come together, the one that used to come
up from Truman Road that's no longer passable, and the
one that we came in on, just off Blue Ridge,
and they come together in a place and form a
little grass triangle. And it's here at the very top

(42:11):
of this hill, in this little grass triangle that Anastasia
was found.

Speaker 10 (42:17):
Her head was right here on the edge of the
grassy part of this small triangle of grass, and her
feet were pointing to the north. And so this is
where this is where Anastasia died.

Speaker 9 (42:39):
And this is where Bob was standing when Epperson drove
up and found him.

Speaker 1 (42:44):
Yeah, and there in the last episode we talked a
lot about how Deputy David Epperson found Bob at the
exact spot where Anastasia died. Eperson found it significant enough
that he wrote a lengthy report about it. Yeah, and
there there was no caution tape up that day when

(43:04):
Bob came.

Speaker 10 (43:05):
No, all that had been removed.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
I'm just playing Devil's advocate. Had the news crews come
in and shown on the news where her body was found.

Speaker 10 (43:15):
There really wasn't anything that would have told him this
was the spot. You know, she was clearly deceased when
she was found, so there weren't like bandages or things
from you know that ambulance crews or paramedics would often
leave behind, no clues like that at all. There had

(43:37):
been some rain, I think after and so even any
blood that you know, frankly, some soaked into the ground,
but the rain would have taken it away. So he
came in the entrance that we just walked down, and
Eperson was surprised to see Whitbills Fugen standing right here.

(44:00):
Bulsfugen was startled when he saw Eperson, and so he
said something like, is this about the right place?

Speaker 5 (44:09):
You know?

Speaker 10 (44:11):
And so yeah, I mean when you look at the
vastness of this, the fact that he would notice stop
right here, I find kind of suspicious, frankly.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
So.

Speaker 9 (44:24):
Eperson, right, Yeah, A person found it suspicious enough to
record it in great detail.

Speaker 1 (44:28):
Where was the tree that had the glass and paint chips?

Speaker 10 (44:33):
Right, so from where we're standing, you see to the
left of the lane there is a tree there. There
was also a tree to the right of the lane
a little closer to us from this, but they measured
about about eighty feet to the east of here, there

(44:54):
was a tree that had damage on the bark. There
had been paint transfer from the car to the tree,
and there was headlight glass and colored glass at the
trunk of the tree. So that was about eighty feet
directly east of where we're standing.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
And I know I've asked Quinn this, but do we
know what color the paint chips were.

Speaker 10 (45:20):
We don't know what color the paint chips were. We
have the regional crime lab logs, and while there is
a report that it was discovered the paint chips were collected,
the glass was collected, we don't have it logged into
the crime lab, and we don't have it logged into
the property room.

Speaker 1 (45:40):
And no description is given.

Speaker 10 (45:42):
No description of the color of the paint.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
We do know again, Bob's car was never processed. Neither
was Byron's. Justin's car was processed and then excluded.

Speaker 10 (45:54):
I think that if Bob did what he told Eperson
that he did driving up and down Truman Road to
see where that shot came from, that he felt in
his heart at eleven thirty pm on October twenty second,
was the shot that took his daughter's life. I don't
know if he's right about that or not, but he

(46:14):
believed that. And if you believe that, he drove up
and down Truman Road like he said, he'd have found
the Truman Road entrance.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
Was there a sign for Lincoln Cemetery back then at
that north entrance?

Speaker 2 (46:28):
I don't know.

Speaker 10 (46:29):
I don't know. I don't know if there was.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
On October twenty second, twenty twenty two, which was the
twenty fifth anniversary of Anastasia's death, Byron's legal team and
a professional photographer went to Lincoln Cemetery to document what
the light and visibility are at various stages of sunset.
I'm going to post those photos on Instagram. Byron's team

(46:53):
says they did this because they believe Anastasia was killed
later than what Kelly testified to. Kelly said in regard
to seeing Anastasia on the ground after she was shot, quote,
it was light enough for me to be able to see.
Byron's legal team says, because there are no lights in
Lincoln Cemetery in order for Kelly to have seen the

(47:14):
murder take place, it would have had to have happened
between seven and seven fifteen pm. And they say that's
impossible because Don Wright said Anastasia was at the Dairy
Queen between eight and nine thirty pm. Her boss, Suleiman
Saliz said she was there from seven seven thirty to
about eight thirty or nine. Don Rand at the Ambuko

(47:35):
station said he saw Anastasia get out of the car
on Truman Road around eight thirty. If those three saw
Anastasia alive as late as eight thirty nine, then how
could Kelly have seen her killed before making it home
for her curfew at nine pm? Because the only thing
we know for sure is that Kelly made at home

(47:55):
to Kansas for her curfew around nine pm. Now, Glenn Caliver,
the Mount Washington Cemetery caretaker, originally told investigators around seven
oh five pm he saw car lights going towards the
Nelson Mausoleum. That turned out to be the car Anastasia, Justin,
Byron and Kelly were in. They left soon after. At trial,

(48:18):
mister Cliver changed his story to say that he saw
them at nine pm. Regardless if what mister Cliver said
in his original statement is true that he saw them
around seven oh five pm. And if what Kelly said
is true that after they were ushered out of Mount
Washington Cemetery they went to Lincoln Cemetery where Byron killed Anastasia,

(48:41):
doesn't that make sense in terms of light and time?
Maybe Don Wright, Suleiman Slid and Don Rand were mistaken
about what time they saw Anastasia, or in Don Rand's case,
that he saw Anastasia at all. And one more quick thing,
call Over said he saw headlights going towards the Nelson Mausoleum.

(49:03):
That means Justin had his lights on right Cultin Justin's
headlights have helped illuminate the scene for Kelly at Lincoln Cemetery.
While I'm there with Shawn and Quinn, I ask if
there was anyone in Anastasia's circle familiar with Lincoln Cemetery.

(49:26):
According to them, just Patrick Rock, Anastasia and Bob's close.

Speaker 10 (49:31):
Friend Pat Rock knew about Lincoln Cemetery because his one
of his hobbies is Negro League's baseball history. And we
saw on a website, you know, thanking him for identifying
the graves of four Negro Leagues baseball players who are

(49:54):
buried here. And he made that find before Anastasia died.

Speaker 9 (50:00):
In nineteen ninety five. That you made that find. One
of the headstones is just right over there. You can
see it from here in that b one row.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
Can we walk over there?

Speaker 5 (50:09):
Yeah, sure, sure, Yeah. So it was Fred Hicks.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
Yep, he's a.

Speaker 9 (50:13):
Negro League ballplayer. Yeah, this is one of the headstones
that Pat Rock identified back in nineteen ninety five. You know,
he was a historian of the Negro leagues. We have
our Negro League Baseball Museum here in Kansas City. Yeah,
Fred Hicks eighteen eighty eight to nineteen fifty.

Speaker 5 (50:29):
Wow, we go right there, there's Fred.

Speaker 9 (50:32):
Hicks, and then there's at least one other Negro league
ballplayer buried close by. But I think we're about, I
don't know, fifty sixty feet from where Anastasia died, probably sixty.

Speaker 1 (50:44):
Yeah, And just to be clear, Pat Rock was never
interviewed by police, by investigators in an official set like
there were emails, there were you know, there was correspondence
and there were conversations, but he never sat down for
an inner.

Speaker 10 (51:01):
No. And now Bob Whitbolls Fugen mentioned Pat. Bob and
Pat were good friends. When Bob recently got his probation
revoked and was sent to prison. Pat Rock was there
in the courtroom and took Bob's wallet and keys and
personal property, so we know they are and they were

(51:25):
very good friends. And Bob did tell Detective Killgre that
if Anastasia were going to call anybody, it would be
Pat Rock, because apparently they were close.

Speaker 9 (51:41):
But that would have been something hard to look up
because the morning after Anastasia's body was found, Pat Rock
changed his phone number.

Speaker 10 (51:51):
So one of the questions we're asking was Pat Rock
her ride home.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
Although we talked about Patrick Rock and all of that
in the last episode, I wonder did Sergeant Kilgore write
anything substantial about Patrick Rock in any of his reports
he did. Here is what Kilgore writes in his report
after talking with Bob on November twenty one, nineteen ninety seven,
quote mister whipples Fugen thanked me for talking to Patrick

(52:28):
Rock and for not disclosing any information about the case
to him. Mister whipples Fugen then asked me if Rock
had an alibi for that evening. I told mister whitbles
Fugen that I had not inquired about his whereabouts of
that evening. Mister Whipples fugen stated Rock was a contact
that Anastasia would call if no other ride was available.

(52:51):
Mister whipples fugen stated Rock has had in the past
a pager and Anastasia knew the number by heart. I
asked mister Whipple's fugen if he suspected Patrick Rock. Mister
Whipple's fugen stated he would suspect that Rock had contact
with Anastasia sometime that night if she needed a ride
or had to get to Kansas, Rock may have offered

(53:14):
to take her to Justin's apartment or somewhere else. Here's
Quinn again.

Speaker 9 (53:21):
I don't know if that was Bob's way of phishing
for more information to see if the Jackson County Sheriff
had any evidence that Pat Rock was at the scene.
It could have also been Bob trying to throw his
best friend under the bos so that, you know, whatever
his involvement or culpability might be, the attention would be
shifted to Pat instead of him.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
Once Patrick and I got past him and Kelly accusing
me of harassing Kelly's mom, Deborah Moffatt, which we talked
about in the last episode, I sent Patrick some questions
and he responded. Over the course of several emails. By
the way, Patrick is quite loquacious, so some of his
responses are edited for time. I start with some questions

(54:02):
about Anastasia and whether or not Patrick thinks she went
home that night. His responses are read by an actor.

Speaker 7 (54:11):
All of which I am certain is that Anastasia changed
her clothes and feminine protection and put her genes in
underwear in the washing machine. Just my opinion, but I
believe that while Case had earlier abandoned his idea of
killing her, hence justin not bothering to pick her up
at Mount Washington, he undeniably decided at that time to
kill her and suggested they go back to Mount Washington

(54:34):
to talk. I believe they went from the DQ straight
to her house and then to the cemeteries.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
I then ask why didn't Kelly say they went to
Anastasia's house if that's in fact what happened.

Speaker 7 (54:49):
I believe it was because Case had rehearsed her to
tell one story to the police, and he omitted the
detour to Anastasia's house because it would have raised unanswerable questions.
It was just four days past her fifteenth birthday when
she saw the murderer and it was easily manipulated by Case.
I asked her about it earlier this year, and she

(55:10):
could not remember twenty five plus years later whether it
happened or not, since she had been made to tell
the same story for two years. D Q Mount Washington
around the Truman Road, Anastasia exits to police and additional
details were purged to keep the alib by as simple
as possible. When she finally broke down and confessed, no

(55:32):
one asked about it and it was not in her
memory by then. We have evidence that Anastasia was at
home closed in the wash, so I believe that they
did come to Anastasia's home, and I believe that Kelly
was so traumatized after witnessing the murder and so well
trained manipulated to tell the one story Case convinced her

(55:53):
that she was an accomplice and was just as guilty
as he, that she could not remember relatively minor details
having been omitted.

Speaker 1 (56:01):
I asked Patrick what he makes of the stun gun
found on Anastasia's bed. He writes, quote, I do not know.

Speaker 7 (56:10):
All I know is Bob found it, told an officer
and watched the officer pick it up bare handed. Spoiling
any fingerprints, which was his first complain about the unprofessional
behavior of the Sheriff's department.

Speaker 5 (56:26):
I heard all this days after the fact.

Speaker 1 (56:29):
I then asked Patrick about how Bob said he changed
his phone number that evening or that day, because the
day after the day when Anastasia's body was found, Bob
couldn't get a hold of Patrick. He responds with quote.

Speaker 7 (56:44):
This was in the days of internet by dialog, and
I had two separate phone lines, one for voice communication
and the other strictly for Internet dial up. AT and
T had recently offered the feature of call notes, where
I could be on line and let a message go
directly to voicemail, not interrupting my online work, but still

(57:06):
not rendering me completely incommunocado while doing so. The change
went into place on the twenty third of October nineteen
ninety seven.

Speaker 5 (57:15):
By sheer coincidence.

Speaker 7 (57:17):
Bob had my work phone, but I had changed jobs
only a month earlier, and he only had my old number. Fortunately,
I kept in touch with my old coworkers and they
had my number, but it was a difficult few hours.
Bob admitted to me much later that just for an
hour or so, he wondered if I was involved in

(57:38):
the murder and had absconded, or alternatively, whether something had
also happened to me and was part of a big conspiracy.
Such are the fears and paranoia that can hit us
during a tragedy when information is incomplete. My cruel fate
changing my phone plan also wiped out the voicemail messages

(57:59):
I had saved on the pous line, including my last
two or three messages from Anastasia, and did so on
the day after her death.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
I asked Patrick when was the last time he spoke
with Anastasia. Did she call him that night? He says
that she called him two nights before the murder.

Speaker 7 (58:20):
She called me on twenty October just to say hello,
around ten thirty in the evening. We chatted for about
twenty minutes about how she was doing about her relationship
with Justin. She said at the time that she had
it under control, which was something I doubted she could
understand at eighteen years old. We closed our conversation the

(58:42):
way we always did. The last words I said to
her were I love you, and her reply was love
you too.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
Another question is about how Bob asked Sergeant Kilgore where
Patrick was the night of October twenty second? Why does
Patrick think Bob ask Kilgore that and where was he
that night?

Speaker 7 (59:06):
Patrick responds with because I personally asked Bob to do so.

Speaker 5 (59:11):
Kil Gore kept going on and on about.

Speaker 7 (59:13):
How none was being ruled out as a suspect, primarily
as an excuse for his own inaction. He'd only talked
to me briefly about Anastasia, never checking whether I had
an alibi, but was being vindictive with Bob, and I
wanted to see whether he was going to play that
game with me. Kilgore didn't bite. I still consider him
a poor detective and a rather petty individual, but he

(59:36):
is not dumb.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
I asked Patrick why Anastasia's mom, Betsy Owens said in
her interview with Kilgore that she had been keeping the
kids away from him, and that she told one of
her brothers she thought he was a quote latent pedophile.
He responds with.

Speaker 7 (59:54):
Well, I fail to see why your question has even
the slightest connection with Byron Case's attempts to reverse his conviction,
other than a supporter's use of anything which they can
get hold to attack and damage people. I will answer
if only in the hope of putting it to rest.
They say that we should speak no ill of the dead,

(01:00:14):
but occasionally it may be necessary, and this is just
such a case. Betsy was an old friend we met
in nineteen eighty one, but was also a frequently manipulative
and vindictive person, and she and I had been on
very bad terms for more than a year at that point.
I felt that her marriage to Bart, a habitual cocaine user,

(01:00:37):
had become a code of pendent relationship, that she was
putting her daughters in danger as a result. We stopped
speaking after a serious incident in nineteen ninety six. I
can count on one hand the number of times we
spoke after that. In November nineteen ninety seven, when speaking
to police, Betsy thought what she was saying was confidential,

(01:01:00):
would never get back to me or anyone else, and,
to use one of her daughter's phrase, she had no filters.

Speaker 5 (01:01:08):
She was angry.

Speaker 7 (01:01:09):
She would say things to hurt others, irrespective of the truth,
and here she twisted and exaggerated minor moments into major accusations.
If you read her entire interview thirty two pages, you
may note she frequently would go off on tangents. It
is significant to me that JCSD never asked me anything

(01:01:32):
about it, nor used it in any way during the trial,
but when it was released as part of the body
of the investigation, the FBC group leapt upon it as
a way to attack others. I met her in nineteen
eighty one when I sought psychological counseling for work related stress,
and Betsy was my therapist for a period of six months.

(01:01:54):
She quit her job when she gave birth to her
second daughter, Francesca. She helped me a great deal with
that issue, and I became a family friend. I am
eternally grateful for her girls having become such a large
and important part of my life. It turns out, however,
that there are limits to a friendship. Slander is one

(01:02:15):
such limit. She blamed me for Anastasia deciding to become
a religious skeptic. I did not talk religion with any
of the girls, something of which I made a strict point,
having actually driven them to church a few times in
their younger days, until such time as they brought up
the subject themselves. Contrary to Betsy's claims, I am not

(01:02:38):
an atheist, falling mostly into the category of spiritual but
non religious. Anastasia first came to her own conclusions about
sixteen and called me as a trusted mentor, only having
brought the subject up with her mother. She told me
at the time that her mother had blamed me for
even thinking of such things. By that time, Betsy and

(01:03:01):
I were barely on speaking terms due to the danger
in which I felt she was putting them. On page
nine of her interview, she blithely states that her husband,
Bart was a crack addict in recovery, with two to
three relapses during that time, and described how they were
broken into while Bart was drinking. The truth is that

(01:03:22):
he was drinking and using crack and chased her and
her children out of the house with violent threats, then
ransacked the house, including the girls rooms, with a friend
for whatever they could sell and converted to more drugs
and my urging. Anastasia filed charges against her stepfather, but
her mother coerced her in a dropping them.

Speaker 5 (01:03:43):
However, she did not return to the home.

Speaker 7 (01:03:46):
Yes, Betsy blamed me for having encouraged Anastasia and Francesca
to move out and live with their father in nineteen
ninety six. I actually encouraged alfoorda move out for their
own safety. She never forgave me, and for the fact
that her husband was physically afraid of me.

Speaker 5 (01:04:04):
This was her revenge.

Speaker 1 (01:04:06):
Patrick goes on to.

Speaker 7 (01:04:07):
Write, yes, I had a stepmother who was an alcoholic,
which did indeed leave scars on me and my siblings.
But I told that to Betsy during counseling, as well
as the fact that I had an older half brother,
fifteen years my senior, who pled guilty to sexual battery
after having had an affair with a teenage girl when
he was nearly forty. It was consensual, but she was

(01:04:29):
under age and he knew better, and he served a
sentence of a year in county jail. He died in
two thousand and one in New Mexico. I recall that
Betsy mentioned him in her police statement as if it
reflected upon me again information gained as a psychological counselor.
I did not turn the girls against their stepparents. Their

(01:04:52):
stepparents did that by themselves. It is odd to me
that she would claim she thought me a latent pedophile
when she personally called on me numerous times.

Speaker 5 (01:05:04):
The babysit them for each girl's.

Speaker 7 (01:05:06):
Tenth birthday, I took them on a special night dinner
at a Japanese steakhouse, a movie of their choice, and
a horse drawn carriage ride through the country club Plaza
Casey shopping district. I did not recall their mother being
anything but absolutely supportive of the nights out. Betsy was
nominally a member of her mother's fundamentalist congregation, but only.

Speaker 5 (01:05:28):
Grabbed a hold of her faith.

Speaker 7 (01:05:31):
I put it in quotes for an obvious reason to
justify her codependent marriage to a drug addict. Since she
had earlier decided that Anastasia had lost her faith due
to my influence, it was something to blame me for
his punishment for not having supported her one hundred percent.
As it is, My relationship with the girls continued and

(01:05:51):
does to this day. Bob's younger brother, Hugo, is still alive,
so I feel no qualms in calling him a nutcase.

Speaker 5 (01:05:58):
Bob calls him that as well. Well.

Speaker 7 (01:06:00):
As Hugo is both a religious and political extremist, he
could not understand my relationship with Anastasia and her sisters
and assumed the worst in his dirty mind. I find
that people of this mindset tend to project their worst
fears onto others, assuming that others are all capable of
the same dark urges as they, but much more impure.

(01:06:23):
Hugo never confronted me nor the girls about such matters,
never sought to confirm or refute his beliefs, but just
muttered his suspicions to Bob, which Bob casually repeated to Betsy,
and never to me, which Betsy twisted and used a
police interview as a forum. As I said, she was vindictive.

(01:06:46):
I first learned of her accusations only when they were
released to the FBC group, which published them on their website,
and Betsy refused to repudiate the statement for fear of
losing her license to practice psychology. It ended up with
her voluntarily surrendering her license and retiring anyway after I
decided to file a complaint against her with the board

(01:07:08):
in two thousand and three. My complaint against Betsy was
that she had wrongfully disclosed information which I had confided
to her as a patient, had done so for a
malicious reason, and had included falsehoods with that information in
an effort to slander me. I was not aware until
I filed the complaint that she had violated her ethics

(01:07:31):
many years before, simply by befriending me immediately after having
been my counselor. Missouri law requires not having a personal
relationship with a client for one year after they ceased
to be one's client. I did not file that charge,
and they became moot after she retired, even though it
did not repair the damage she did me. That was

(01:07:54):
the last time we spoke to each other.

Speaker 1 (01:07:57):
Patrick continues with.

Speaker 7 (01:07:58):
And now, after having spent an unnecessary amount of time
on this, I must ask what makes this even the
least bit relevant to Byron case the supporter's efforts to
free him. What makes this so relevant that you felt
a need to raise it. I do not recall it
being used anywhere except by the FBC group as a

(01:08:19):
way to slander me.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
For the record, I asked Patrick about this because legally
I have to give him a chance to respond to
Betsy's allegations. Unfortunately, I can't ask Betsy to verify or
deny Patrick's allegations because she passed away in April of
twenty twenty four. Another question I asked Patrick is about

(01:08:42):
how he was is a Negro Baseball League researcher and historian.
His connection to Lincoln Cemetery and how he felt about
Anastasia being killed there. Patrick responds with.

Speaker 7 (01:08:55):
I remain a Negro league research you're only remotely active
now of Famer Wilbur Bullet Rogan is buried in Blue
Ridge Lawn Memorial, just a mile or so south of
Lincoln Cemetery on the same road. But there are no
Negro leaguers of whom I know buried at Lincoln. However,
Jazz immortal Charlie Bird Parker is buried not one hundred

(01:09:17):
and fifty feet from where Case murdered Anastasia. I was
unaware of that fact until after the murder, never having
visited Lincoln until November nineteen ninety seven. However, because members
of the FBC group occasionally would visit the cemetery on
the anniversary of the murder and leave posters and placards,

(01:09:40):
for a few years, I took to sitting inside the
cemetery in my car near the spot of the murder,
holding vigil until about seven thirty PM, the approximate time
of the murder, and then leave. Kids who never knew
Anastasia but had heard of the murder also liked to
come up there on a Dare on that anniversary, only

(01:10:01):
nine days before Halloween, and whole seances or generally littered
the place, and I had run ins with both groups
at least once each. The last time, I was sitting
with the car's engine running but lights off, when I
saw a car coming up the backway the route that
case had justin drive. I waited until they were within

(01:10:22):
one hundred feet, turned on my brights, red my engines,
and hit the emergency blinkers. That is a treacherously narrow pathway.
They came up, and they surprised me and how quickly
they turned.

Speaker 5 (01:10:34):
The car around and retreated.

Speaker 7 (01:10:36):
I'm sure they thought I was the police. Nothing is
exciting with the FBC. They just stood and glared at me.
I assumed they glared. I could not see their expressions
from that far away in such dim light, and then
retreated without putting up any signs. One time they left

(01:10:57):
but tried entering later on the same night, hoping I
had left by then. That was the one time that
Bob joined me, so they were actually outnumbered. Eventually, Lincoln's
Cemetery finally blocked the back entrance people were dumping trash
there as well, and put a gate up in front,
which was locked in the evening, and I seized my

(01:11:17):
vigils about twenty twenty. No, it is not particularly stressful
about Lincoln's Cemetery other than it being the place where
Anastasia died. A stressful thing for me is being forced
to relive this trauma over and over again every time
FBC makes another attempt to spring case and then inevitably

(01:11:38):
drags Anastasia's family into it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:41):
Patrick continues with I am usually.

Speaker 7 (01:11:43):
The firewall between the girls in FBC's annex, but even
then they were all forced to go through this again.
In my first email to you, I made the remark
i'll quoted he killed her more than a quarter century ago.
He killed her yesterday, He will kill her tomorrow.

Speaker 5 (01:12:04):
This is what I mean.

Speaker 7 (01:12:06):
They keep dredging this up, putting new spin on all lies,
and he keeps killing her again and again and again.
And having to again read the lies that Betsio and
surreptitiously told police twenty seven years ago, and have to
defend myself again from attacks from beyond the grave. Tends

(01:12:26):
to put a hard knot of anger in my stomach.
Understand I do not directly blame you for this I
assume you were brought in by the O'Briens. Usually everyone
is recruited by FBC, if not Evelyn Case herself. But
I wonder why you deem it of such importance.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
Patrick closes one of his emails with quote, I only
looked at a single one of your podcasts to get
a feel for your style, But I do not know
if in all of them so far you have found
the real killer to be the one already in prison.
Back to Sean and Quinn in Lincoln Cemetery, standing on

(01:13:11):
the spot, what do you two feel?

Speaker 10 (01:13:15):
I've had different feelings over the years. I've thought that
if you wanted to end your own life, that this
is a beautiful, tranquil spot that you might choose to
do that. I've also thought that, you know, a young

(01:13:35):
person wanting to come and you know, talk with the
boyfriend or girlfriend and you know, make out, you know,
like kids do, that this would be a good place
for that. It does not seem to me like a
place you'd bring someone to kill them if that was
year intent. It is isolated, But I just don't know.

(01:13:56):
You know, all of that is just speculation. Did she
get here still a big question for us. We know
that Byron and Justin did not drive her here because
it just doesn't fit all the other things we know
about what they did and where they went that evening.
There just isn't any evidence that they ever were. The

(01:14:18):
only word on that was Kelly Moffett.

Speaker 9 (01:14:20):
I don't think Kelly was ever here. I don't think
Byron or Kelly or Justin ever made it into the cemetery.
And I don't think Kelly ever came here until she
was brought here by members of the Jackson County Sheriff's Department.
I think the first time Kelly moffittt saw this cemetery
was the first time she was brought here by Kilgore.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):
I feel very sad here.

Speaker 9 (01:14:46):
Yeah, first time it came, I brought flowers. It just
felt like the right thing to do. You know, this
is still a spot where someone died and you know,
a pretty remarkable young person.

Speaker 10 (01:14:57):
And yeah, yeah, that's the part of this case. It
gets to me is that we have access to so
much of who Anastasia is because we have her letters,
notes to friends, we have poetry that she's written. She
was a bright, empathetic, loving young woman, and it's really

(01:15:23):
sad yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:15:28):
Yeah, that's very sad. I know this episode is a lot.
You might need to listen to it again, maybe all
the episodes for that matter. And I told you from
the very beginning this story has me pulling my hair out.
Although there are many people who believe there are no
unanswered questions Kelly watched Byron kill Anastasia and that's the

(01:15:51):
end of it, there are still others who believe this
is not an open and shut case. Did Anastasia go
home and change her clothes? Byron's legal team thinks she did,
so does Patrick rock Bob used to think that. Now
he doesn't want to say. If Anastasia did go home,
how did she get there, what happened while she was there,

(01:16:14):
and how did she make it back out to Lincoln Cemetery.
How is it that Anastasia was found in the same
clothes she was seen leaving the house in when Don
Wright says she had something on completely different? How is
it that Anastasia was found in a clean pad and underwear?
What time did people see her alive and what time

(01:16:34):
was she killed? And how does logic play into any
of this? If you're anything like me and our team,
you have a million questions about this story, So we
want to hear from you dm us on Instagram or
email us at The Real Killer Podcast at gmail dot com,

(01:16:56):
and hopefully we can answer your questions in future episodes.
Next time on The Real Killer, he comes into.

Speaker 3 (01:17:08):
The room, he sets down, and we said, well, what
did you think? And the first thing that said that
everything that Kelly said after two thousand was a lie.

Speaker 1 (01:17:17):
Her story cannot be true. Are some of the key
players starting to waiver on Byron's guilt.

Speaker 11 (01:17:24):
I would run into the judge and I said, Judge gent, well, Cap,
you got a minute? And I just told him, I says, help.
Byron didn't do this. And then one day he sent
me a letter.

Speaker 1 (01:17:35):
What does it say?

Speaker 11 (01:17:36):
When we read it? It's a good one.

Speaker 1 (01:17:44):
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely
those of the individuals participating in the podcast. If you,
or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts or a crisis,
please no help is available. Call or text nine eight eight,
or chat online at the Suicide and Crisis Lifelines website

(01:18:07):
at nine eight eight lifeline dot org. To see photos, maps,
and documents related to this season's story, follow The Real
Killer podcast on Instagram and at trk podcast on TikTok.
The Real Killer is a production of AYR Media and iHeartMedia,

(01:18:29):
hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and
Elisa Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman, Editing
and sound design by Cameron Taggi, mixed and mastered by
Cameron Taggi. Production coordinator Andy Levine, Audio engineer Justin Longerbeam

(01:18:51):
studio engineer Graham Gibson. Voice acting by Art Garza. Legal
counsel for AYR Media, Giannie Douglas. Executive producer for iHeartMedia,
Maya Howard