March 20, 2025 • 45 mins
Two incredibly revealing conversations: Anastasia’s sisters share their questions about the case and who they believe has told the truth and a key person’s alibi, who was never interviewed by investigators, drops a potential bombshell.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
A warning.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
This episode contains depictions of violence and conversations about suicide
that may be disturbing and triggering for some listeners. If
you are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please fast forward to
the end of this episode to find out where help
is available.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
To me, Kelly's story makes the most sense.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
With no physical evidence tying anyone to the murder of Anastasia.
Does it all come down to who can we most believe?
Speaker 4 (00:33):
She stands by her story still and it's twenty six
years later, you know, I.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Don't see anything that she gained.
Speaker 5 (00:42):
She could have just as easily said justin did it,
And I mean she did, like stick with that story
and Byron could have said that too.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I'm Leah Rothman. This is the Real Killer. Episode twelve.
Two Sisters and the Alibi. So far this season, we
have heard from Byron Case, his legal team, his mom, Evelyn,
and others. We've also heard from Kelly Moffatt's friend Angie,
(01:24):
the former Jackson County prosecutor, Jean Peters Baker, and Anastasia's
sisters Fran and Emma. In episode three, Fran and Emma
shared some heartfelt stories about their sister. A quick reminder,
Fran was fifteen and Emma was four when Anastasia was murdered.
Before Fran, Emma and I get off our zoom call
(01:47):
that day, Emma, you said you wanted to say something.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Oh, just in regards to why we feel like Byron's guilty. Yeah, huh.
Now I'm put on the spot. I feel like, to
believe viron you have to not believe what's coming out
of Kelly, you know, and I just I can't do that.
I don't see any motivation really for her other than
(02:15):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
What they're alleging.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
So maybe these are the sound bites that I'm worried about,
you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Well, then why don't you think about it and even
write something up or you can email meself.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
I have written it up. That's why I'm like, just
read it, okay. Yeah. So I read the transcripts over
again today and I did like a close reading, you know,
one time where I'm like, okay, so he's guilty. One
time where I'm like, Okay, he's innocent, and you know,
(02:51):
everything he says in that call makes sense if he's guilty,
but not everything adds up if he's innocent, he's surprised
and definitely caught off guard by you know, the phone
call from Kelly. It sounds us and that's because it
was super high stake situation. There's the cops on the
other end. It's being recorded, so it's not that Kelly's
(03:13):
making things up or because someone else made this stuff
up that she's saying. But you know, at some points
when he doesn't respond, you know that he's doing some
like mental calculations, and it including when she says point
blank like why did you have to kill her?
Speaker 3 (03:31):
What was the whole efing deal? Could you explain to me?
Speaker 4 (03:34):
There's no response for a good eight seconds, and then
she continues like you know, and then there's again no response.
A firm you know, like I didn't kill her? Is
like what I found myself saying whenever I did the
close reading where he's innocent. You know, it just doesn't
make sense that he wouldn't say, like what what are
(03:54):
you talking about? What are you talking about? Like justin
did it? You know, so make that make sense. Furthermore,
it wasn't just that, you know, the whole conversation. It
kind of alludes to this shared trauma that they have,
like you know, reading between the lines, Kelly's like, I've
(04:15):
not been the same since It's almost like, you know,
he hasn't been the same sense either. You know, you
can be traumatized by something that you did. I don't
know exactly how he feels about that, but it doesn't
sound like what they're dealing with is their friends separately
committing suicide or furtherer suicide. You know, that doesn't sound
(04:38):
like what they're dealing with. Yeah, I wanted to ask
you if your podcast also explores what happened to Justin
or does it touch that at all?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yeah, we I mean as much as we can. I
reached out to Justin's sister, not his mom yet, but
his sister, hoping to talk with her, and I haven't
heard back.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
I don't know if you are all in touch with
Justin's family.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
But because you know, Justin accorded to Buyer, and Justin
called him that next morning, right around nine o'clock and
then within I think it was between nine to eleven
and nine twenty five, he was at the gun shop
buying the gun. So one would imagine he was about
(05:31):
to take his own life because he knew something. Either
he was there, he did it, he watched it. He
used that gun to kill himself, though he bought a
new gun. He bought a new gun in the morning
of the twenty third morning her body was found.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Pardon and used that one.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah, okay, but that's not the gun that was used. Yeah,
that's a new gun.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
So yeah, before it was announced on the tea or anything,
he is already buying a gun.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
I think at seven o'clock in the morning, there is
the Sheriff's Department sends out a media alert to saying
that a body, no name, no identification, but a body
had been found in Lincoln Cemetery. So technically he might
have heard something.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
You know.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
I don't have any evidence that says any of the
new stations put anything out at seven or before nine.
All I have is the Sheriff's Department report that they
send out a media alert.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
But yees.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
So that's a long way of saying, yes, we do
absolutely talk about Justin. We talk about you know, it's
in a lot of the interviews with Kilgore, and you know,
whether it's with Byron or Kelly or about what people
think may have happened and why Justin would have taken
his own life. Let me ask you, because one of
(07:00):
the rumors that went around a lot was that there
was a suicide packed do you think that there was
any credibility to that? I mean, Anastasia I had talked
about suicide. Do you think that there was any chance
that she and Justin and maybe I don't.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Think that's the way it went down.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
No, No, they may have talked about that because they
were goffy teenagers, but that's not what happened. You know,
she was super vain about her She.
Speaker 5 (07:33):
Never would have shot herself in her tiny little ski
slate slope nose. I thought it was just the smallest,
tiniest nose ever. She had a great smile, perfect set
of teeth, no braces. She was too vain to kill herself,
especially shooting herself in the face like like pills, or.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Splitting her wrists or something dramatic like gosh.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
I mean again, you would have to be saying that
you don't believe Kelly's story or if this happened, you know,
in isolation, what happened to the murder weapon? Like are
those suicide the bullets?
Speaker 3 (08:18):
What happened to that stuff?
Speaker 5 (08:19):
So I can say, like in terms of her that night,
we had fought about clothes, and that's how I remember
what she was wearing so distinctly. And I mean, I
think some of the other eyewitness accounts say she was
wearing jeans, and I just there's no way she had them.
The black pants we fought over, and I was super
(08:42):
sad after she was gone because I couldn't steal those
pants from her anymore.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
And she and.
Speaker 5 (08:49):
She took my shoes and they were just some hand
meeting on Doc mart We'll not hanging down. There were
secondhand Doc Martins that I got at a thrift store
in Michigan when I was out of town, and I
remember thinking like, why did she have to die in
my shoes? Not because those are my shoes, but because
(09:10):
if she had been trying to run away, the inside
of those shoes were so slippery, like they had like
a smooth insole, and how your socks would just slip around,
and she had smaller feet than me, and how like
she would not have been able to.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Run in those shoes. And I just remember thinking like, oh.
Speaker 5 (09:28):
My god, like before we knew what happened, before Kelly
came forward, thinking like, oh my god, she couldn't escape
because she had those damn shoes on, and.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
She definitely wasn't walking home.
Speaker 5 (09:42):
My thought she was not a locker. We were not athletic.
Like she knew how to call collect on a payphone.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
She would have gotten a ride home. She would she
would have called and gotten a ride home. There's no way.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
What about because your dad was the one who thought
that she may have come home home because he found
a pair of blue jeans in the washing machine and
underwear soaking, and that is and that sort of matches
what don Wright at the Dairy Queen said that she
you know, was wearing that night.
Speaker 5 (10:16):
Doud She was terrible about doing laundry. That stuff could
have been in there for two weeks. She was absent
minded when it came to that stuff. So I don't
I don't think that. I mean, it could have been
mine for all I know. I don't remember specifically, she
might remember what she was wearing. I do know what
(10:38):
she was wearing because it was, Yeah, like it's sad.
It's sad to think about the last time you saw
someone before they dies. You guys were fighting, like that's
clothes and because I stole her clothes and more than
to school, like a good sister she was, so, you know,
(11:00):
I I think the eyewitness accounts, well, you know, it's
it's I'm.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Glad people saw her. I don't.
Speaker 5 (11:08):
I don't think what she was wearing could be considered
reliable from other people.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
I don't understand whenever they interviewed that person, was that
before or after or during the trial, Like can I
just think, yeah, like that's I don't know that part either,
And I know she gave testimony, and so I don't
doubt that Anastasia was there.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Her whole description of the outfit.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
I'm just like, that's not what Anastasia like, never wore sandals, like,
she didn't carry purses.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Really she I don't recall her having a purse on her.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
I remember that ugly corduroy jacket and she loved it,
and I was I thought it was hideous, Like I
hate I had trauma from corduae from when I was
a kid, I guess, but like the just yeah, it's
very weird.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
I share more with brand and Emma about dairy queen
worker Don Wright, who interacted with Anastasia that night. Weird,
don right, she's passed away, Oh okay, but I have
the police report and so, and she was interviewed by
(12:25):
kil Gore on audiotape.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
They audio taped it.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
So she was interviewed on the twenty fourth, so the
day after, and then kil Gore writes a report that
he called her the next day to say, do you
remember anything else? And she's like, yeah, I actually remember
what she was wearing. And so that's when she gives
a report of the blue jeans and the socks and
(12:50):
sandals and the purse.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
So it was two.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Days one day after she was found that Don Wright
is interviewed and the day after that she talks about
the clothes.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Yeah. I just don't know what to make about that.
I don't think it proves anything.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
When your dad says that he found that stuff at
the house, and your dad is like in multiple emails,
like she came home, Like I believe she came home.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Did she hit hike I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Or got a ride or they came back, or she
got out of the car, because Don Rand at the
Amaco saw her get out of the car and she
started to walk and they went and picked her back up.
And I have no idea. I have no idea. I
drove it multiple times while I was in Kansas City.
And even though this is twenty something years later, I
(13:42):
tried to imagine myself if I would walk that far.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
That's very very.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Far, it really is.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Yeah, three plus miles right and at night.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yeah, and passed like you know, for sex shop, and
I mean it gets better as it.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Got to your old you know, to the true.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yeah, but that's incredibly long. I've never walked up for
in Independence now.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
I mean, I tried a lot of self in her
shoes and I'm like, I can't even if you're like
angry and you're like, I'm just so mad at my boyfriend,
I'm just gonna walk home.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
It still is. If it were a mile, I could maybe.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Imagine that it seemed very far to me, it seemed
quite far.
Speaker 4 (14:29):
How much does that like matter to the case, Like
we're just trying to account for what happened, like the time,
but I mean.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
I think it matters in that a lot of people,
especially before Kelly comes forward, is a lot of people
are debating all these things like this is part of
the investigation.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Did she use the payphone?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
You know, like your dad says that he spoke to
So there was that Amico station that used to be
at the corner. And then there was another gas station
next door, Phillip sixty six station, And your dad tells
kil Gore like, look, I spoke with Don Rand at
the Amico station. I also went next door to the
Phillip station and the father and daughter who owned that
station said that they saw a young woman that night too,
(15:12):
and she used the payphone. Okay, well, also kill Gore?
What the ah? Like, what the tuck? Did you not
get payphone records or you know what I mean? So
it is part of the investigation. And it's also part
of what wasn't done.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
So was it this? Was it Anastasia? Who's the phone?
Who knows?
Speaker 2 (15:32):
But you're you know, like your your dad brings that
to kill Gore, and kill Gore doesn't follow up. Nobody
goes and tries to find that father and daughter to
to corroborate that. We speak for a few more minutes,
then start to wrap up our conversation. I'm very, very
appreciative and thankful for today. Yeah, and if there's anything
(15:53):
you think I need to know, whether it's about Anastasia
or Justin or Byron or you know, your family, anything.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Pretty much both that we believe Kelly. Yeah, I don't.
I don't. I mean we heard from.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
The prosecutor that she would probably be willing if it
came to it again, testify against him again. She stands
by her story still, and it's twenty six years later.
You know, I don't see anything that she gained. She
could have just as easily said Justin did it. And
I mean she did, like stick with that story, and
(16:31):
Byron could have said that too. And I think the
fact that.
Speaker 5 (16:37):
The Sheriff's department I remember, I feel like I remember
them wanting to label that this murder suicide. And how
easily it could have just been written off by that
because then they don't have to have a trial. Justin's dead.
How easy would that have been for that to happen.
She wanted to let us know what happened. I mean,
(16:58):
that was her motivation.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
And she wasn't under the his palm anymore. You know,
It's not that she was angry. She just was like
finally like.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Trauma.
Speaker 5 (17:09):
Yeah, coming to terms with her on trauma and the
damage it did to her. I think the damage just
all everyone that knew and a station cared about her.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
This traumatized us all. How does how does someone that
you've known for years kill you?
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Anna?
Speaker 5 (17:32):
Stasia could definitely piss a person off. I don't remember
her ever, like being beat up in school. I think
Anastasia was so cerebral that and you know a few
times that somebody wanted to pick a fight with her,
you know, she was the one getting them in trouble.
Like it wasn't a lot of physical altercations. Now could
(17:53):
she have defended herself, Like, oh my god, that girl
could scratch. I have.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Faded scar it's been so long, but from her scratching.
Speaker 5 (18:02):
Like if she had been in a situation I feel
like with a stranger where it was you know, die
or live, Yeah, altercation, she would have she would have fought,
she would have ran, she would have gotten help. She
wouldn't have gotten in a stranger's car, like so many things,
like she was smart about and this caught her off guard,
(18:25):
like this would happen to her. She she didn't have
a chance to run away. She didn't have, you know,
a chance to escape. And so I think, to me,
Kelly's story makes the most sense about why she didn't
have any signs of fighting for her life because she
(18:48):
trusted these people and she shouldn't have.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Anastasia's sisters Fran and Emma very much believe Kelly Moffatt
told the truth when she came forward in September of
two thousand. I still hope Kelly and I get a
chance to sit down and talk, I suggested before she
makes her decision. She listened to these twelve episodes first.
And there are other people I was hoping to interview,
(19:30):
like Prosecutor Teresa Crayon, Judge Charles Atwell, doctor Thomas Young,
and defense attorney Horton Lance, none of whom will talk
right now. I also really want to speak with John Fisher.
Bob Whitblesfuchen's alibi the night Anastasia was killed. Remember Bob
said after work on the evening of October twenty second,
(19:53):
nineteen ninety seven, he went to John's house for a
meeting about a marathon he was going to run. It
seems no one from the Jackson County Sheriff's Department ever
contacted John Fisher to verify Bob's alibi that night, but
Byron's legal team does find and speak with John and
his wife Elizabeth in Indiana. They both write AffA Davits,
(20:15):
and they both agree to speak with me. We begin
with how John and Bob met while working for the
IRS in Kansas. It's a coworker of yours. Tell me
a little bit about how you met Bob Whitbolsfugen.
Speaker 6 (20:27):
Okay, Well, we crossed paths at the IRS, so I
had met Bob and chat. We're acquaintances. We hadn't really
developed the friendship spending time together until this marathon came
up and I decided that I wanted to run a
(20:48):
relay team for the marathon and posted this notice on
the bulletin board at work, and Bob saw it too
and then said, yeah, I'll do that. He seemed like
a nice guy. It might have been was a little different,
but I think he had an unusual sense of humor
and different air, different persona about him.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Or what did he do with the IRS? Do you
know what his job was?
Speaker 7 (21:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (21:13):
Well he did pretty much the same thing I did,
answered phone calls from taxpayers with questions about their tax returns.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Did you and Bob work near each other, like sit
near each other or did you eat lunch together?
Speaker 6 (21:29):
No, as a matter of fact, I didn't, as it
was an acquaintanceship, but really not so much of friendship.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Did Bob ever talk about his family or his daughters.
Speaker 6 (21:41):
Well, I knew that he had a large number of daughters.
It was four or five.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Something like that.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Around seven pm on October twenty seconds, nineteen ninety seven,
people gather for that meeting about the marathon they all
planned to run. Where does this meeting take place?
Speaker 6 (22:00):
Meeting took place at Elizabeth's house.
Speaker 7 (22:03):
Well, that's right, we had it at our at my house.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
And by that time Elizabeth, who was John's girlfriend at
the time, says she didn't know anyone there that evening,
but one person who would turn out to be Bob
Whitbullsfuchen did make an impression on her.
Speaker 6 (22:21):
Nothing.
Speaker 7 (22:22):
I remember sitting in the living room looking at Bob
Bitbull's fuch and thinking, you are sitting on George's chair,
and I really hope when you stand up that you
don't have an orange rear and because your pants are black,
And that was pretty much all I could think about
during the entire meeting was and just to be clear,
(22:42):
who's George. Oh, George was my cat? Yes, my cat George.
That chair because it was kind of out of the
way usually nobody said it.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
It was an old chair for my grandmother.
Speaker 7 (22:55):
With a needle point cover that it didn't look inviting,
and it was just over in a corner, but he
chose that Jair.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Elizabeth, did anything stand out to you about Bob other
than that he was going to be covered in George's
cat hair?
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Not a thing that I recall. Do you remember seeing
the cat hair on him?
Speaker 7 (23:16):
Yes? I did, And I thought I stood there saying, oh,
good night, And I thought, do I tell him or
do I let his wife tell him?
Speaker 1 (23:25):
And I and there were all these.
Speaker 7 (23:26):
Other people, and I thought, if I tell him now,
he'll be embarrassed, and it just I decided not to
tell him.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
John, do you remember anything or pett Bob seem at
Elizabeth's house that night during the meeting.
Speaker 6 (23:38):
Well, he seemed like he'd always seemed kind of normal Bob,
kind of a different sense of humor, maybe you kind
of ry and dry sense of humor, but otherwise just
like himself. Yeah, he didn't give off any vibes of,
(23:58):
you know, being concerned or angry or upset at all.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Elizabeth and John say because it was a work night,
they would have normally gotten ready for bed by ten,
so they believe the meeting broke up around eight thirty
or nine. The next day, John says he gets a
call from Bob with the tragic news about Anastasia.
Speaker 6 (24:23):
The next day actually called, I think and said, you know,
I'm sorry. I can't can't run in a race anymore.
My daughter was killed last night.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Do you remember any more about that conversation?
Speaker 6 (24:35):
Yeah, I'm so sorry, and jeez, is there anything I
can do? And he sounded very forced, but also kind
of kind of yeah, kind of forced, like he was
trying to keep himself under control. But you know that
made him sound kind of cold. But you're going to
(24:56):
tell he was angry too, and upset.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
The Fisher's a Anastasia's funeral. Then, some time later, John
tells Elizabeth about a conversation he had with Bob.
Speaker 7 (25:08):
Bob had gone to find her when he got home
and found out she hadn't come home. That he went
to find her and he tried to get her to
get into the car, and she wouldn't get into the car,
and then.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
She was killed.
Speaker 7 (25:21):
And this was just stored in the back of my head. No,
Bob said that he went to find her and she
wouldn't get in the car.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
And you remember this because John told you. Why do
you remember this?
Speaker 7 (25:34):
John told me this, and you know it was just
part of the story that I was storing in my
internal violin cabinet.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Do you remember what you thought when hearing that Bob
may have come in contact with his daughter that night?
Speaker 7 (25:51):
Well, it was just heartbreaking. My thought, I guess my
feeling and thought was she might not be dead if
she would have gotten in the car. She should have
gone with dad. Duh, she should have gone with her dad.
Too bad she didn't go with her dad. She wouldn't
be dead. He almost had her, and then he didn't
get her, and then she got killed.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Do you remember any more details about that interaction that
Bob had shared with John?
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Not much.
Speaker 7 (26:18):
I just remember him saying he couldn't get her to
get in the car. Now, what I'm not sure about
is did he have her in the car and she
jumped out? Maybe I couldn't say that didn't happen. I
couldn't say John didn't tell me that, Or did he
(26:39):
just see her walking along and he said get into
the car. So that precise thing I don't know.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Now, John, do you remember this conversation or this part
of the conversation with Bob very vaguely.
Speaker 6 (26:54):
Yeah, And I couldn't tell you exactly when it took place,
but it was within a couple of three weeks.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Of the murder.
Speaker 6 (27:05):
He was back at work and obsessed, of course with this,
and I'm sure he was well providing that he was
telling the truth about having found her and she refusing
to get into the car.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
You say in your Affidavid that you don't remember this
as much as Elizabeth does, but you very much trust
Elizabeth's memory.
Speaker 6 (27:31):
Well, Elizabeth has an eye, has an eye for detail.
I mean she always has and still does. If she
says that's the way it happened, and you can be
pretty sure that's the way it happened.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
And again you remember John sharing that information that Bob
shared with.
Speaker 7 (27:52):
Him, because well, you know, it's just it was stored
in my head.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Had like a clip from a film.
Speaker 7 (28:03):
Right, guy comes to your house, Guy sits in Kent
for goes home, daughter gets killed in a cemetery. He
can't be in the race. I very clearly see that
Bob tried to get her back in the car. Bob
said he tried to get her into the car.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
So you said, John that after Anastasia's murder, Bob. You
could see Bob becoming more and more obsessed.
Speaker 6 (28:30):
Yes, I just remember generally that over the next few weeks,
if not months, I didn't see a lot of him,
but when I ran into him, he was always upset
about the progress of the investigation, thought it was being
handled poorly and not pursued it. And it's possible, you know,
(28:55):
from what I've heard since, that there are elements of
the case that maybe he should be glad weren't pursued.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Did anyone from the Sheriff's department reach out to you
to find out where Bob was that night, how he
was that night? Did anyone Did any investigators reach out
to either of you?
Speaker 6 (29:15):
No?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
No, So what John and Elizabeth just shared is interesting,
to say the very least. Right, If Bob saw and
spoke with Anastasia that evening, does that mean she actually
did get out of Justin's car, like Byron said she did.
Let's talk about some of the potential time stamps we have.
(29:39):
According to Bob, he knew that Anastasia had been dropped
off at Mount Washington Cemetery and she was out there
alone because Justin wasn't coming to meet her as early
as five thirty PM. John and Elizabeth Fisher say the
marathon meeting started around seven and ended around eight thirty
or nine. I google the distance between Elizabeth's house back
(30:02):
then and Bob's house and it's like eighteen miles, roughly
a twenty seven minute drive. So does that mean Bob
could have been back in the area between nine and
nine thirty? Although in Bob's first interview with investigators, he
said he got home around eight thirty eight forty five
(30:22):
that night, but Fran told Sergeant Kilgore her dad got
home between nine forty five and ten. Anyway, assuming the
meeting ended between eight thirty and nine, could Bob have
found and talked to Anastasia sometime between nine and nine thirty,
or could it have been later that evening when he
(30:42):
said he went out looking for her, like around eleven thirty,
the time he said he heard that gunshot that he
believed was the one that killed her. Either way, if
Bob saw Anastasia alive that night, it would have been
after Kelly was already home in Lenexa, Kansas, having made
her nine pm curfew. It must be said if Bob
(31:06):
did find Anastasia that night. It doesn't mean he did
anything nefarious to her. I think the biggest question is
if Bob did in fact see and try to get
Anastasia in the car that night, why didn't he tell
any of this to detectives. Okay, there is someone else
we haven't spent much time talking about, and that's Anastasia's boyfriend,
(31:31):
Justin Brutin. If you remember, earlier in the episode, fran
and Emma asked if we spent any time looking into
Justin and what happened to him. Justin took his own
life after Anastasia was found dead. Why what did he know?
What did he see or what did he do? Since
(31:51):
Justin left no note behind, getting to any real answers
has been tough. There is something that may or may
not be relevant, but I think it's worth mentioning. In
nineteen ninety nine, twenty nine year old April Wilkins is
convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to life for
killing Terry Carleton in self defense. Terry Carleton was Justin
(32:16):
Bruton's uncle. I bring up April because although it wasn't
allowed in it or trial, in some post conviction court documents,
April says Terry actually brought up Justin and Anastasia in
the months after her murder. According to court documents, Terry
said about Anastasia, the bitch got what she deserved and
(32:38):
that April was next. Terry's alleged threats prove nothing definitive
about whether or not Justin killed Anastasia. Obviously, neither Justin
nor Terry can tell their side of that story, so
we're still left with no real answers on Justin. Something
(33:08):
I've been thinking about since I started this season is
what is most logical. Anastasia's sisters Fran and Emma believe
that Kelly's story makes the most sense. But my question is,
does what makes the most sense equal the facts. What
are the undeniable facts in this case? And do they
(33:29):
actually prove Byron is guilty or innocent or do they
prove neither. Here's what we believe we know for sure.
On October twenty second, nineteen ninety seven, at around four
to twenty pm, Anastasia's stepmother, Diane, drove hed to Mount
Washington Cemetery to meet Justin. At around five pm, Anastasia
(33:50):
was seen by Glenn Culliver, the caretaker at Mount Washington
around five point thirty pm, George and Karen Lepage, who
are test driving a car in Mount Washington Cemetery, spoke
with Anastasia. When she asked for the time, she told
them that she was there waiting for her boyfriend to arrive.
Sometime after that, Anastasia walked across the street to the
(34:12):
Dairy Queen and called Justin several times. There she came
in contact with Dairy Queen worker Don Wright and the owner,
Suleiman Solid, although their times differ. They said while there,
Anastasia got her period, used the bathroom, used the payphone,
and then was picked up by two guys and a girl.
(34:32):
Around seven o five pm, Glenn Calliver said he saw
Anastasia again, this time with two guys and a girl.
He wrote down their license plate as they left the cemetery.
This turned out to be the license plates on Justin's car.
The next person who said they saw Anastasia was Don Rand,
the night mechanic at the Amico station. When Don Rand
(34:56):
was shown a photo of Anastasia, he identified her as
a woman he saw on Truman Road walking east around
eight thirty that night. The next thing we know is
that Kelly, Justin and Byron went to where Abraham was
house sitting. They picked up some stuff that he had
of his ex girlfriends. They left and they took Kelly
home to Lenexa, Kansas for her curfew. At nine pm.
(35:20):
Later that evening, Anastasia's dad, Bob, went out looking for
her and said he couldn't find her. Anastasia was found
dead at three forty four am in Lincoln's Cemetery, wearing
black pants, black Doc Martin shoes, a gray sweater, a
tan corduroy jacket, and clean underwear and pad. Anastasia suffered
(35:41):
a contact gunshot wound to her nose, meaning the gun
was pressed up against her nose when she was shot. Okay,
here's what we don't have. Definitive objective answers to Anastasia's
time of death, what kind of gun was used, or
where that gun came from. Why don writes description of
(36:04):
Anastasia's clothes didn't match what Fran said Anastasia was wearing
when she left the house, which seems to be the
same clothes she was found dead in roughly twelve hours later.
We also don't know why don Wright said she saw
Anastasia carrying a purse Fran and others have said Anastasia
never carried a purse, but sometimes she carried a wallet.
(36:26):
We don't know for sure if Don gave Anastasia a
pad or a tampon. Don first told Kilgore it was
a pad, then a trial she said it was a tampon.
And we don't know how if Anastasia got her period
that night, why she was found in clean underwear and
a clean pad. Here are some questions I have. Anastasia
(36:51):
was found with having three dollars and sixty five cents
in her pants pocket. Don Wright, as we know, said
Anastasia was carrying a purse. Kelly, in her second interview
with kil Gore a month after the murder, said she
saw Anastasia with a wallet that night. If Anastasia had
been carrying a wallet or a purse, why wouldn't the
(37:14):
money be in one of those? Did Don Rand really
see Anastasia or was it someone else he saw? Who
did the father and daughter at the Phillip sixty sixth
station see using the payphone. Bob says Anastasia went home
and changed her clothes because he found her jeans in
the washing machine and underwear soaking in a sink. Were
(37:36):
those Anastasia's clothes or were they friends? Or was this
like the caravan of cars, which means it most likely
never happened. Bob says he also found Anastasia's purse at
the house. Bob took a photo of it sent it
to Sergeant kil Gore. Kil Gore could have shown it
to Don Wright, but he didn't. The photo of the
(37:59):
per kind of looked maybe like a long wallet. Were
the purse and the wallet the same thing? Did Anastasia
actually go home? If so, how did she get there?
Did she call Patrick rockfer Ride or someone else? And
in all of Patrick's research into the Negro League, did
(38:22):
he really not have any knowledge of Lincoln's Cemetery and
the players buried there? A quick reminder of what Patrick
wrote when I asked him about his work and connection
to Lincoln Cemetery. Remember we played this in episode nine.
Speaker 8 (38:39):
I remain a Negro League research you're only remotely active now.
Hall of Famer Wilbur Bullet Rogan is buried in Blue
Ridge Lawn Memorial, just a mile or so south of
Lincoln Cemetery on the same road. But there are no
Negro leaguers of whom I know buried at Lincoln. However,
Jazz immortal Charlie Bird Parker is buried not one hundred
(39:01):
and fifty feet from where Case murdered Anastasia. I was
unaware of that fact until after the murder, never having
visited Lincoln until November nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
If Anastasia did go home, what happened at the house?
Why was there a stun gun on her bed? And
if Anastasia did go home, how and why did she
go back out? And how did she end up in
Lincoln Cemetery? And there's more? Why are there so many
different timelines? Why is it that Dairy Queen worker Don
Wright and owner Suleiman Salad gave different times for when
(39:37):
they saw Anastasia, one being as late as nine thirty pm,
well after Kelly was home in Lenexa, Kansas. And Franz
said the plan was for Anastasia to meet Justin at
Mount Washington Cemetery. So why, according to Kelly's new statement
in September of two thousand, did she say that after
(39:59):
Justin and Byron picked her up at her house, they
needed her to call Anastasia to lure her out to
the Dairy Queen did Kelly, Justin, and Byron call and
speak with Anastasia before Fran got home that day? If so,
why didn't Anastasia ask for a ride to the Dairy
Queen instead of Mount Washington Cemetery? And if the plan
(40:23):
was to kill Anastasia, why did Justin tell Fran when
he called around four point thirty that he didn't want
to make the drive all the way from Lenexa, Kansas
to Independence, Missouri to meet her.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
What happened to the.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Gun Justin bought in September? Did he actually sell it
like many people said, or did he keep it? What
messages were erased or recorded over on Justin's answering machine?
Why were there no defensive wounds on Anastasia? Did she
know her killer? Was this a surprise attack? How is
(41:00):
that she had no time to react? Kelly said Byron
was five feet away from Anastasia when he killed her.
How could that be considering the gun was pressed up
against Anastasia's nose. Why did Justin take his own life?
Did he kill Anastasia? Did he witness Byron kill her?
Or did he feel guilty because she got out of
(41:21):
the car and nobody knew where she was One of
the earliest rumors that went around was that Byron handed
Justin a gun he didn't know was loaded. Was this
just some horrible accident and everyone was too afraid to
tell the truth. Was Anastasia standing up or lying down
when she was shot? What are those blue fibers the
crime lab now sees on the bullet fragment? What color
(41:44):
were the paint chips they found on the tree at
the scene. Are they even related to this case? Why
wasn't Bob's car ever photographed and processed? Considering the front
end damage noted by Deputy Eperson When Bob said he
heard the gun shot around eleven thirty that night, why
did he say he believed that was the shot that
(42:04):
killed Anastasia? Was that the shot that killed Anastasia? Why
did Bob go to the exact spot in Lincoln Cemetery
where Anastasia was found when no one outside of law
enforcement knew where it was. Did Bob actually see Anastasia
that night and try to get her into his car?
(42:25):
If so, why didn't he tell Kilgore about it? Did
Justin go back out that night? Did Byron? Was his
car at home or in the shop? Did Kelly work
with prosecutors to come up with her new story, pointing
the finger at Byron.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
But why would Kelly do that?
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Why would she implicate herself in Anastasia's murder if it
wasn't the truth. Could the drugs have warped Kelly's memory
when she came forward, causing some of her details to
be off. Why would Byron bring his fifteen year old
girlfriend Kelly to a murder if he did kill Anastasia.
(43:06):
Why would Byron move away and risk pissing Kelly off,
which could result in her turning on him. Why wasn't
Kelly's new account enough for Byron to be arrested. Why
did prosecutors need more like a recorded confession? And during
the June fifth recorded phone call, when Kelly asked Byron,
(43:28):
why did he feel the need to kill her, why
didn't Byron deny it.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Is your head spinning like mine is.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
All of these questions, including some great ones we received
from our listeners, have come up during the making of
this season. Respectfully, as much as some people think there
aren't any unanswered questions, it seems there are at least
a few. We are going to take a short pause
(44:00):
until the final episode during that time, Please keep sending
in your questions, thoughts, and theories. I'm also going to
post key people's timelines on Instagram. In our last episode,
we hope to be back with a potentially huge interview
that could answer so many of our questions. The views
(44:27):
and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of
the individuals participating in the podcast. If you or someone
you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts or a crisis, please
no help is available.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Call or text.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Nine to eight eight, or chat online at the Suicide
and Crisis Lifelines website at nine eight eight lifeline dot org.
To see photos, maps and documents related to this season's story,
follow The Real Killer Podcast on Instagram and at TRK
podcast on TikTok. The Real Killer is a production of
(45:07):
AYR Media and iHeartMedia, hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive
producers Leah Rothman and Elisa Rosen for AYR Media. Written
by Leah Rothman, editing and sound design by Cameron Taggy,
mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggi, Audio engineer Justin Longerbeam
(45:30):
studio engineer Graham Gibson. Legal Council for AYR Media Johnny Douglas,
executive producer for iHeartMedia, Maya Howard
A warning.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
This episode contains depictions of violence and conversations about suicide
that may be disturbing and triggering for some listeners. If
you are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please fast forward to
the end of this episode to find out where help
is available.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
To me, Kelly's story makes the most sense.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
With no physical evidence tying anyone to the murder of Anastasia.
Does it all come down to who can we most believe?
Speaker 4 (00:33):
She stands by her story still and it's twenty six
years later, you know, I.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Don't see anything that she gained.
Speaker 5 (00:42):
She could have just as easily said justin did it,
And I mean she did, like stick with that story
and Byron could have said that too.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I'm Leah Rothman. This is the Real Killer. Episode twelve.
Two Sisters and the Alibi. So far this season, we
have heard from Byron Case, his legal team, his mom, Evelyn,
and others. We've also heard from Kelly Moffatt's friend Angie,
(01:24):
the former Jackson County prosecutor, Jean Peters Baker, and Anastasia's
sisters Fran and Emma. In episode three, Fran and Emma
shared some heartfelt stories about their sister. A quick reminder,
Fran was fifteen and Emma was four when Anastasia was murdered.
Before Fran, Emma and I get off our zoom call
(01:47):
that day, Emma, you said you wanted to say something.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Oh, just in regards to why we feel like Byron's guilty. Yeah, huh.
Now I'm put on the spot. I feel like, to
believe viron you have to not believe what's coming out
of Kelly, you know, and I just I can't do that.
I don't see any motivation really for her other than
(02:15):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
What they're alleging.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
So maybe these are the sound bites that I'm worried about,
you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Well, then why don't you think about it and even
write something up or you can email meself.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
I have written it up. That's why I'm like, just
read it, okay. Yeah. So I read the transcripts over
again today and I did like a close reading, you know,
one time where I'm like, okay, so he's guilty. One
time where I'm like, Okay, he's innocent, and you know,
(02:51):
everything he says in that call makes sense if he's guilty,
but not everything adds up if he's innocent, he's surprised
and definitely caught off guard by you know, the phone
call from Kelly. It sounds us and that's because it
was super high stake situation. There's the cops on the
other end. It's being recorded, so it's not that Kelly's
(03:13):
making things up or because someone else made this stuff
up that she's saying. But you know, at some points
when he doesn't respond, you know that he's doing some
like mental calculations, and it including when she says point
blank like why did you have to kill her?
Speaker 3 (03:31):
What was the whole efing deal? Could you explain to me?
Speaker 4 (03:34):
There's no response for a good eight seconds, and then
she continues like you know, and then there's again no response.
A firm you know, like I didn't kill her? Is
like what I found myself saying whenever I did the
close reading where he's innocent. You know, it just doesn't
make sense that he wouldn't say, like what what are
(03:54):
you talking about? What are you talking about? Like justin
did it? You know, so make that make sense. Furthermore,
it wasn't just that, you know, the whole conversation. It
kind of alludes to this shared trauma that they have,
like you know, reading between the lines, Kelly's like, I've
(04:15):
not been the same since It's almost like, you know,
he hasn't been the same sense either. You know, you
can be traumatized by something that you did. I don't
know exactly how he feels about that, but it doesn't
sound like what they're dealing with is their friends separately
committing suicide or furtherer suicide. You know, that doesn't sound
(04:38):
like what they're dealing with. Yeah, I wanted to ask
you if your podcast also explores what happened to Justin
or does it touch that at all?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yeah, we I mean as much as we can. I
reached out to Justin's sister, not his mom yet, but
his sister, hoping to talk with her, and I haven't
heard back.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
I don't know if you are all in touch with
Justin's family.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
But because you know, Justin accorded to Buyer, and Justin
called him that next morning, right around nine o'clock and
then within I think it was between nine to eleven
and nine twenty five, he was at the gun shop
buying the gun. So one would imagine he was about
(05:31):
to take his own life because he knew something. Either
he was there, he did it, he watched it. He
used that gun to kill himself, though he bought a
new gun. He bought a new gun in the morning
of the twenty third morning her body was found.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Pardon and used that one.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah, okay, but that's not the gun that was used. Yeah,
that's a new gun.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
So yeah, before it was announced on the tea or anything,
he is already buying a gun.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
I think at seven o'clock in the morning, there is
the Sheriff's Department sends out a media alert to saying
that a body, no name, no identification, but a body
had been found in Lincoln Cemetery. So technically he might
have heard something.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
You know.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
I don't have any evidence that says any of the
new stations put anything out at seven or before nine.
All I have is the Sheriff's Department report that they
send out a media alert.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
But yees.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
So that's a long way of saying, yes, we do
absolutely talk about Justin. We talk about you know, it's
in a lot of the interviews with Kilgore, and you know,
whether it's with Byron or Kelly or about what people
think may have happened and why Justin would have taken
his own life. Let me ask you, because one of
(07:00):
the rumors that went around a lot was that there
was a suicide packed do you think that there was
any credibility to that? I mean, Anastasia I had talked
about suicide. Do you think that there was any chance
that she and Justin and maybe I don't.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Think that's the way it went down.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
No, No, they may have talked about that because they
were goffy teenagers, but that's not what happened. You know,
she was super vain about her She.
Speaker 5 (07:33):
Never would have shot herself in her tiny little ski
slate slope nose. I thought it was just the smallest,
tiniest nose ever. She had a great smile, perfect set
of teeth, no braces. She was too vain to kill herself,
especially shooting herself in the face like like pills, or.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Splitting her wrists or something dramatic like gosh.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
I mean again, you would have to be saying that
you don't believe Kelly's story or if this happened, you know,
in isolation, what happened to the murder weapon? Like are
those suicide the bullets?
Speaker 3 (08:18):
What happened to that stuff?
Speaker 5 (08:19):
So I can say, like in terms of her that night,
we had fought about clothes, and that's how I remember
what she was wearing so distinctly. And I mean, I
think some of the other eyewitness accounts say she was
wearing jeans, and I just there's no way she had them.
The black pants we fought over, and I was super
(08:42):
sad after she was gone because I couldn't steal those
pants from her anymore.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
And she and.
Speaker 5 (08:49):
She took my shoes and they were just some hand
meeting on Doc mart We'll not hanging down. There were
secondhand Doc Martins that I got at a thrift store
in Michigan when I was out of town, and I
remember thinking like, why did she have to die in
my shoes? Not because those are my shoes, but because
(09:10):
if she had been trying to run away, the inside
of those shoes were so slippery, like they had like
a smooth insole, and how your socks would just slip around,
and she had smaller feet than me, and how like
she would not have been able to.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Run in those shoes. And I just remember thinking like, oh.
Speaker 5 (09:28):
My god, like before we knew what happened, before Kelly
came forward, thinking like, oh my god, she couldn't escape
because she had those damn shoes on, and.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
She definitely wasn't walking home.
Speaker 5 (09:42):
My thought she was not a locker. We were not athletic.
Like she knew how to call collect on a payphone.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
She would have gotten a ride home. She would she
would have called and gotten a ride home. There's no way.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
What about because your dad was the one who thought
that she may have come home home because he found
a pair of blue jeans in the washing machine and
underwear soaking, and that is and that sort of matches
what don Wright at the Dairy Queen said that she
you know, was wearing that night.
Speaker 5 (10:16):
Doud She was terrible about doing laundry. That stuff could
have been in there for two weeks. She was absent
minded when it came to that stuff. So I don't
I don't think that. I mean, it could have been
mine for all I know. I don't remember specifically, she
might remember what she was wearing. I do know what
(10:38):
she was wearing because it was, Yeah, like it's sad.
It's sad to think about the last time you saw
someone before they dies. You guys were fighting, like that's
clothes and because I stole her clothes and more than
to school, like a good sister she was, so, you know,
(11:00):
I I think the eyewitness accounts, well, you know, it's
it's I'm.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Glad people saw her. I don't.
Speaker 5 (11:08):
I don't think what she was wearing could be considered
reliable from other people.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
I don't understand whenever they interviewed that person, was that
before or after or during the trial, Like can I
just think, yeah, like that's I don't know that part either,
And I know she gave testimony, and so I don't
doubt that Anastasia was there.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Her whole description of the outfit.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
I'm just like, that's not what Anastasia like, never wore sandals, like,
she didn't carry purses.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Really she I don't recall her having a purse on her.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
I remember that ugly corduroy jacket and she loved it,
and I was I thought it was hideous, Like I
hate I had trauma from corduae from when I was
a kid, I guess, but like the just yeah, it's
very weird.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
I share more with brand and Emma about dairy queen
worker Don Wright, who interacted with Anastasia that night. Weird,
don right, she's passed away, Oh okay, but I have
the police report and so, and she was interviewed by
(12:25):
kil Gore on audiotape.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
They audio taped it.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
So she was interviewed on the twenty fourth, so the
day after, and then kil Gore writes a report that
he called her the next day to say, do you
remember anything else? And she's like, yeah, I actually remember
what she was wearing. And so that's when she gives
a report of the blue jeans and the socks and
(12:50):
sandals and the purse.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
So it was two.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Days one day after she was found that Don Wright
is interviewed and the day after that she talks about
the clothes.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Yeah. I just don't know what to make about that.
I don't think it proves anything.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
When your dad says that he found that stuff at
the house, and your dad is like in multiple emails,
like she came home, Like I believe she came home.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Did she hit hike I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Or got a ride or they came back, or she
got out of the car, because Don Rand at the
Amaco saw her get out of the car and she
started to walk and they went and picked her back up.
And I have no idea. I have no idea. I
drove it multiple times while I was in Kansas City.
And even though this is twenty something years later, I
(13:42):
tried to imagine myself if I would walk that far.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
That's very very.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Far, it really is.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Yeah, three plus miles right and at night.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yeah, and passed like you know, for sex shop, and
I mean it gets better as it.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Got to your old you know, to the true.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yeah, but that's incredibly long. I've never walked up for
in Independence now.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
I mean, I tried a lot of self in her
shoes and I'm like, I can't even if you're like
angry and you're like, I'm just so mad at my boyfriend,
I'm just gonna walk home.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
It still is. If it were a mile, I could maybe.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Imagine that it seemed very far to me, it seemed
quite far.
Speaker 4 (14:29):
How much does that like matter to the case, Like
we're just trying to account for what happened, like the time,
but I mean.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
I think it matters in that a lot of people,
especially before Kelly comes forward, is a lot of people
are debating all these things like this is part of
the investigation.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Did she use the payphone?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
You know, like your dad says that he spoke to
So there was that Amico station that used to be
at the corner. And then there was another gas station
next door, Phillip sixty six station, And your dad tells
kil Gore like, look, I spoke with Don Rand at
the Amico station. I also went next door to the
Phillip station and the father and daughter who owned that
station said that they saw a young woman that night too,
(15:12):
and she used the payphone. Okay, well, also kill Gore?
What the ah? Like, what the tuck? Did you not
get payphone records or you know what I mean? So
it is part of the investigation. And it's also part
of what wasn't done.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
So was it this? Was it Anastasia? Who's the phone?
Who knows?
Speaker 2 (15:32):
But you're you know, like your your dad brings that
to kill Gore, and kill Gore doesn't follow up. Nobody
goes and tries to find that father and daughter to
to corroborate that. We speak for a few more minutes,
then start to wrap up our conversation. I'm very, very
appreciative and thankful for today. Yeah, and if there's anything
(15:53):
you think I need to know, whether it's about Anastasia
or Justin or Byron or you know, your family, anything.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Pretty much both that we believe Kelly. Yeah, I don't.
I don't. I mean we heard from.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
The prosecutor that she would probably be willing if it
came to it again, testify against him again. She stands
by her story still, and it's twenty six years later.
You know, I don't see anything that she gained. She
could have just as easily said Justin did it. And
I mean she did, like stick with that story, and
(16:31):
Byron could have said that too. And I think the
fact that.
Speaker 5 (16:37):
The Sheriff's department I remember, I feel like I remember
them wanting to label that this murder suicide. And how
easily it could have just been written off by that
because then they don't have to have a trial. Justin's dead.
How easy would that have been for that to happen.
She wanted to let us know what happened. I mean,
(16:58):
that was her motivation.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
And she wasn't under the his palm anymore. You know,
It's not that she was angry. She just was like
finally like.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Trauma.
Speaker 5 (17:09):
Yeah, coming to terms with her on trauma and the
damage it did to her. I think the damage just
all everyone that knew and a station cared about her.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
This traumatized us all. How does how does someone that
you've known for years kill you?
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Anna?
Speaker 5 (17:32):
Stasia could definitely piss a person off. I don't remember
her ever, like being beat up in school. I think
Anastasia was so cerebral that and you know a few
times that somebody wanted to pick a fight with her,
you know, she was the one getting them in trouble.
Like it wasn't a lot of physical altercations. Now could
(17:53):
she have defended herself, Like, oh my god, that girl
could scratch. I have.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Faded scar it's been so long, but from her scratching.
Speaker 5 (18:02):
Like if she had been in a situation I feel
like with a stranger where it was you know, die
or live, Yeah, altercation, she would have she would have fought,
she would have ran, she would have gotten help. She
wouldn't have gotten in a stranger's car, like so many things,
like she was smart about and this caught her off guard,
(18:25):
like this would happen to her. She she didn't have
a chance to run away. She didn't have, you know,
a chance to escape. And so I think, to me,
Kelly's story makes the most sense about why she didn't
have any signs of fighting for her life because she
(18:48):
trusted these people and she shouldn't have.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Anastasia's sisters Fran and Emma very much believe Kelly Moffatt
told the truth when she came forward in September of
two thousand. I still hope Kelly and I get a
chance to sit down and talk, I suggested before she
makes her decision. She listened to these twelve episodes first.
And there are other people I was hoping to interview,
(19:30):
like Prosecutor Teresa Crayon, Judge Charles Atwell, doctor Thomas Young,
and defense attorney Horton Lance, none of whom will talk
right now. I also really want to speak with John Fisher.
Bob Whitblesfuchen's alibi the night Anastasia was killed. Remember Bob
said after work on the evening of October twenty second,
(19:53):
nineteen ninety seven, he went to John's house for a
meeting about a marathon he was going to run. It
seems no one from the Jackson County Sheriff's Department ever
contacted John Fisher to verify Bob's alibi that night, but
Byron's legal team does find and speak with John and
his wife Elizabeth in Indiana. They both write AffA Davits,
(20:15):
and they both agree to speak with me. We begin
with how John and Bob met while working for the
IRS in Kansas. It's a coworker of yours. Tell me
a little bit about how you met Bob Whitbolsfugen.
Speaker 6 (20:27):
Okay, Well, we crossed paths at the IRS, so I
had met Bob and chat. We're acquaintances. We hadn't really
developed the friendship spending time together until this marathon came
up and I decided that I wanted to run a
(20:48):
relay team for the marathon and posted this notice on
the bulletin board at work, and Bob saw it too
and then said, yeah, I'll do that. He seemed like
a nice guy. It might have been was a little different,
but I think he had an unusual sense of humor
and different air, different persona about him.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Or what did he do with the IRS? Do you
know what his job was?
Speaker 7 (21:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (21:13):
Well he did pretty much the same thing I did,
answered phone calls from taxpayers with questions about their tax returns.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Did you and Bob work near each other, like sit
near each other or did you eat lunch together?
Speaker 6 (21:29):
No, as a matter of fact, I didn't, as it
was an acquaintanceship, but really not so much of friendship.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Did Bob ever talk about his family or his daughters.
Speaker 6 (21:41):
Well, I knew that he had a large number of daughters.
It was four or five.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Something like that.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Around seven pm on October twenty seconds, nineteen ninety seven,
people gather for that meeting about the marathon they all
planned to run. Where does this meeting take place?
Speaker 6 (22:00):
Meeting took place at Elizabeth's house.
Speaker 7 (22:03):
Well, that's right, we had it at our at my house.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
And by that time Elizabeth, who was John's girlfriend at
the time, says she didn't know anyone there that evening,
but one person who would turn out to be Bob
Whitbullsfuchen did make an impression on her.
Speaker 6 (22:21):
Nothing.
Speaker 7 (22:22):
I remember sitting in the living room looking at Bob
Bitbull's fuch and thinking, you are sitting on George's chair,
and I really hope when you stand up that you
don't have an orange rear and because your pants are black,
And that was pretty much all I could think about
during the entire meeting was and just to be clear,
(22:42):
who's George. Oh, George was my cat? Yes, my cat George.
That chair because it was kind of out of the
way usually nobody said it.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
It was an old chair for my grandmother.
Speaker 7 (22:55):
With a needle point cover that it didn't look inviting,
and it was just over in a corner, but he
chose that Jair.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Elizabeth, did anything stand out to you about Bob other
than that he was going to be covered in George's
cat hair?
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Not a thing that I recall. Do you remember seeing
the cat hair on him?
Speaker 7 (23:16):
Yes? I did, And I thought I stood there saying, oh,
good night, And I thought, do I tell him or
do I let his wife tell him?
Speaker 1 (23:25):
And I and there were all these.
Speaker 7 (23:26):
Other people, and I thought, if I tell him now,
he'll be embarrassed, and it just I decided not to
tell him.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
John, do you remember anything or pett Bob seem at
Elizabeth's house that night during the meeting.
Speaker 6 (23:38):
Well, he seemed like he'd always seemed kind of normal Bob,
kind of a different sense of humor, maybe you kind
of ry and dry sense of humor, but otherwise just
like himself. Yeah, he didn't give off any vibes of,
(23:58):
you know, being concerned or angry or upset at all.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Elizabeth and John say because it was a work night,
they would have normally gotten ready for bed by ten,
so they believe the meeting broke up around eight thirty
or nine. The next day, John says he gets a
call from Bob with the tragic news about Anastasia.
Speaker 6 (24:23):
The next day actually called, I think and said, you know,
I'm sorry. I can't can't run in a race anymore.
My daughter was killed last night.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Do you remember any more about that conversation?
Speaker 6 (24:35):
Yeah, I'm so sorry, and jeez, is there anything I
can do? And he sounded very forced, but also kind
of kind of yeah, kind of forced, like he was
trying to keep himself under control. But you know that
made him sound kind of cold. But you're going to
(24:56):
tell he was angry too, and upset.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
The Fisher's a Anastasia's funeral. Then, some time later, John
tells Elizabeth about a conversation he had with Bob.
Speaker 7 (25:08):
Bob had gone to find her when he got home
and found out she hadn't come home. That he went
to find her and he tried to get her to
get into the car, and she wouldn't get into the car,
and then.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
She was killed.
Speaker 7 (25:21):
And this was just stored in the back of my head. No,
Bob said that he went to find her and she
wouldn't get in the car.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
And you remember this because John told you. Why do
you remember this?
Speaker 7 (25:34):
John told me this, and you know it was just
part of the story that I was storing in my
internal violin cabinet.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Do you remember what you thought when hearing that Bob
may have come in contact with his daughter that night?
Speaker 7 (25:51):
Well, it was just heartbreaking. My thought, I guess my
feeling and thought was she might not be dead if
she would have gotten in the car. She should have
gone with dad. Duh, she should have gone with her dad.
Too bad she didn't go with her dad. She wouldn't
be dead. He almost had her, and then he didn't
get her, and then she got killed.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Do you remember any more details about that interaction that
Bob had shared with John?
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Not much.
Speaker 7 (26:18):
I just remember him saying he couldn't get her to
get in the car. Now, what I'm not sure about
is did he have her in the car and she
jumped out? Maybe I couldn't say that didn't happen. I
couldn't say John didn't tell me that, Or did he
(26:39):
just see her walking along and he said get into
the car. So that precise thing I don't know.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Now, John, do you remember this conversation or this part
of the conversation with Bob very vaguely.
Speaker 6 (26:54):
Yeah, And I couldn't tell you exactly when it took place,
but it was within a couple of three weeks.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Of the murder.
Speaker 6 (27:05):
He was back at work and obsessed, of course with this,
and I'm sure he was well providing that he was
telling the truth about having found her and she refusing
to get into the car.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
You say in your Affidavid that you don't remember this
as much as Elizabeth does, but you very much trust
Elizabeth's memory.
Speaker 6 (27:31):
Well, Elizabeth has an eye, has an eye for detail.
I mean she always has and still does. If she
says that's the way it happened, and you can be
pretty sure that's the way it happened.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
And again you remember John sharing that information that Bob
shared with.
Speaker 7 (27:52):
Him, because well, you know, it's just it was stored
in my head.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Had like a clip from a film.
Speaker 7 (28:03):
Right, guy comes to your house, Guy sits in Kent
for goes home, daughter gets killed in a cemetery. He
can't be in the race. I very clearly see that
Bob tried to get her back in the car. Bob
said he tried to get her into the car.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
So you said, John that after Anastasia's murder, Bob. You
could see Bob becoming more and more obsessed.
Speaker 6 (28:30):
Yes, I just remember generally that over the next few weeks,
if not months, I didn't see a lot of him,
but when I ran into him, he was always upset
about the progress of the investigation, thought it was being
handled poorly and not pursued it. And it's possible, you know,
(28:55):
from what I've heard since, that there are elements of
the case that maybe he should be glad weren't pursued.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Did anyone from the Sheriff's department reach out to you
to find out where Bob was that night, how he
was that night? Did anyone Did any investigators reach out
to either of you?
Speaker 6 (29:15):
No?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
No, So what John and Elizabeth just shared is interesting,
to say the very least. Right, If Bob saw and
spoke with Anastasia that evening, does that mean she actually
did get out of Justin's car, like Byron said she did.
Let's talk about some of the potential time stamps we have.
(29:39):
According to Bob, he knew that Anastasia had been dropped
off at Mount Washington Cemetery and she was out there
alone because Justin wasn't coming to meet her as early
as five thirty PM. John and Elizabeth Fisher say the
marathon meeting started around seven and ended around eight thirty
or nine. I google the distance between Elizabeth's house back
(30:02):
then and Bob's house and it's like eighteen miles, roughly
a twenty seven minute drive. So does that mean Bob
could have been back in the area between nine and
nine thirty? Although in Bob's first interview with investigators, he
said he got home around eight thirty eight forty five
(30:22):
that night, but Fran told Sergeant Kilgore her dad got
home between nine forty five and ten. Anyway, assuming the
meeting ended between eight thirty and nine, could Bob have
found and talked to Anastasia sometime between nine and nine thirty,
or could it have been later that evening when he
(30:42):
said he went out looking for her, like around eleven thirty,
the time he said he heard that gunshot that he
believed was the one that killed her. Either way, if
Bob saw Anastasia alive that night, it would have been
after Kelly was already home in Lenexa, Kansas, having made
her nine pm curfew. It must be said if Bob
(31:06):
did find Anastasia that night. It doesn't mean he did
anything nefarious to her. I think the biggest question is
if Bob did in fact see and try to get
Anastasia in the car that night, why didn't he tell
any of this to detectives. Okay, there is someone else
we haven't spent much time talking about, and that's Anastasia's boyfriend,
(31:31):
Justin Brutin. If you remember, earlier in the episode, fran
and Emma asked if we spent any time looking into
Justin and what happened to him. Justin took his own
life after Anastasia was found dead. Why what did he know?
What did he see or what did he do? Since
(31:51):
Justin left no note behind, getting to any real answers
has been tough. There is something that may or may
not be relevant, but I think it's worth mentioning. In
nineteen ninety nine, twenty nine year old April Wilkins is
convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to life for
killing Terry Carleton in self defense. Terry Carleton was Justin
(32:16):
Bruton's uncle. I bring up April because although it wasn't
allowed in it or trial, in some post conviction court documents,
April says Terry actually brought up Justin and Anastasia in
the months after her murder. According to court documents, Terry
said about Anastasia, the bitch got what she deserved and
(32:38):
that April was next. Terry's alleged threats prove nothing definitive
about whether or not Justin killed Anastasia. Obviously, neither Justin
nor Terry can tell their side of that story, so
we're still left with no real answers on Justin. Something
(33:08):
I've been thinking about since I started this season is
what is most logical. Anastasia's sisters Fran and Emma believe
that Kelly's story makes the most sense. But my question is,
does what makes the most sense equal the facts. What
are the undeniable facts in this case? And do they
(33:29):
actually prove Byron is guilty or innocent or do they
prove neither. Here's what we believe we know for sure.
On October twenty second, nineteen ninety seven, at around four
to twenty pm, Anastasia's stepmother, Diane, drove hed to Mount
Washington Cemetery to meet Justin. At around five pm, Anastasia
(33:50):
was seen by Glenn Culliver, the caretaker at Mount Washington
around five point thirty pm, George and Karen Lepage, who
are test driving a car in Mount Washington Cemetery, spoke
with Anastasia. When she asked for the time, she told
them that she was there waiting for her boyfriend to arrive.
Sometime after that, Anastasia walked across the street to the
(34:12):
Dairy Queen and called Justin several times. There she came
in contact with Dairy Queen worker Don Wright and the owner,
Suleiman Solid, although their times differ. They said while there,
Anastasia got her period, used the bathroom, used the payphone,
and then was picked up by two guys and a girl.
(34:32):
Around seven o five pm, Glenn Calliver said he saw
Anastasia again, this time with two guys and a girl.
He wrote down their license plate as they left the cemetery.
This turned out to be the license plates on Justin's car.
The next person who said they saw Anastasia was Don Rand,
the night mechanic at the Amico station. When Don Rand
(34:56):
was shown a photo of Anastasia, he identified her as
a woman he saw on Truman Road walking east around
eight thirty that night. The next thing we know is
that Kelly, Justin and Byron went to where Abraham was
house sitting. They picked up some stuff that he had
of his ex girlfriends. They left and they took Kelly
home to Lenexa, Kansas for her curfew. At nine pm.
(35:20):
Later that evening, Anastasia's dad, Bob, went out looking for
her and said he couldn't find her. Anastasia was found
dead at three forty four am in Lincoln's Cemetery, wearing
black pants, black Doc Martin shoes, a gray sweater, a
tan corduroy jacket, and clean underwear and pad. Anastasia suffered
(35:41):
a contact gunshot wound to her nose, meaning the gun
was pressed up against her nose when she was shot. Okay,
here's what we don't have. Definitive objective answers to Anastasia's
time of death, what kind of gun was used, or
where that gun came from. Why don writes description of
(36:04):
Anastasia's clothes didn't match what Fran said Anastasia was wearing
when she left the house, which seems to be the
same clothes she was found dead in roughly twelve hours later.
We also don't know why don Wright said she saw
Anastasia carrying a purse Fran and others have said Anastasia
never carried a purse, but sometimes she carried a wallet.
(36:26):
We don't know for sure if Don gave Anastasia a
pad or a tampon. Don first told Kilgore it was
a pad, then a trial she said it was a tampon.
And we don't know how if Anastasia got her period
that night, why she was found in clean underwear and
a clean pad. Here are some questions I have. Anastasia
(36:51):
was found with having three dollars and sixty five cents
in her pants pocket. Don Wright, as we know, said
Anastasia was carrying a purse. Kelly, in her second interview
with kil Gore a month after the murder, said she
saw Anastasia with a wallet that night. If Anastasia had
been carrying a wallet or a purse, why wouldn't the
(37:14):
money be in one of those? Did Don Rand really
see Anastasia or was it someone else he saw? Who
did the father and daughter at the Phillip sixty sixth
station see using the payphone. Bob says Anastasia went home
and changed her clothes because he found her jeans in
the washing machine and underwear soaking in a sink. Were
(37:36):
those Anastasia's clothes or were they friends? Or was this
like the caravan of cars, which means it most likely
never happened. Bob says he also found Anastasia's purse at
the house. Bob took a photo of it sent it
to Sergeant kil Gore. Kil Gore could have shown it
to Don Wright, but he didn't. The photo of the
(37:59):
per kind of looked maybe like a long wallet. Were
the purse and the wallet the same thing? Did Anastasia
actually go home? If so, how did she get there?
Did she call Patrick rockfer Ride or someone else? And
in all of Patrick's research into the Negro League, did
(38:22):
he really not have any knowledge of Lincoln's Cemetery and
the players buried there? A quick reminder of what Patrick
wrote when I asked him about his work and connection
to Lincoln Cemetery. Remember we played this in episode nine.
Speaker 8 (38:39):
I remain a Negro League research you're only remotely active now.
Hall of Famer Wilbur Bullet Rogan is buried in Blue
Ridge Lawn Memorial, just a mile or so south of
Lincoln Cemetery on the same road. But there are no
Negro leaguers of whom I know buried at Lincoln. However,
Jazz immortal Charlie Bird Parker is buried not one hundred
(39:01):
and fifty feet from where Case murdered Anastasia. I was
unaware of that fact until after the murder, never having
visited Lincoln until November nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
If Anastasia did go home, what happened at the house?
Why was there a stun gun on her bed? And
if Anastasia did go home, how and why did she
go back out? And how did she end up in
Lincoln Cemetery? And there's more? Why are there so many
different timelines? Why is it that Dairy Queen worker Don
Wright and owner Suleiman Salad gave different times for when
(39:37):
they saw Anastasia, one being as late as nine thirty pm,
well after Kelly was home in Lenexa, Kansas. And Franz
said the plan was for Anastasia to meet Justin at
Mount Washington Cemetery. So why, according to Kelly's new statement
in September of two thousand, did she say that after
(39:59):
Justin and Byron picked her up at her house, they
needed her to call Anastasia to lure her out to
the Dairy Queen did Kelly, Justin, and Byron call and
speak with Anastasia before Fran got home that day? If so,
why didn't Anastasia ask for a ride to the Dairy
Queen instead of Mount Washington Cemetery? And if the plan
(40:23):
was to kill Anastasia, why did Justin tell Fran when
he called around four point thirty that he didn't want
to make the drive all the way from Lenexa, Kansas
to Independence, Missouri to meet her.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
What happened to the.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Gun Justin bought in September? Did he actually sell it
like many people said, or did he keep it? What
messages were erased or recorded over on Justin's answering machine?
Why were there no defensive wounds on Anastasia? Did she
know her killer? Was this a surprise attack? How is
(41:00):
that she had no time to react? Kelly said Byron
was five feet away from Anastasia when he killed her.
How could that be considering the gun was pressed up
against Anastasia's nose. Why did Justin take his own life?
Did he kill Anastasia? Did he witness Byron kill her?
Or did he feel guilty because she got out of
(41:21):
the car and nobody knew where she was One of
the earliest rumors that went around was that Byron handed
Justin a gun he didn't know was loaded. Was this
just some horrible accident and everyone was too afraid to
tell the truth. Was Anastasia standing up or lying down
when she was shot? What are those blue fibers the
crime lab now sees on the bullet fragment? What color
(41:44):
were the paint chips they found on the tree at
the scene. Are they even related to this case? Why
wasn't Bob's car ever photographed and processed? Considering the front
end damage noted by Deputy Eperson When Bob said he
heard the gun shot around eleven thirty that night, why
did he say he believed that was the shot that
(42:04):
killed Anastasia? Was that the shot that killed Anastasia? Why
did Bob go to the exact spot in Lincoln Cemetery
where Anastasia was found when no one outside of law
enforcement knew where it was. Did Bob actually see Anastasia
that night and try to get her into his car?
(42:25):
If so, why didn't he tell Kilgore about it? Did
Justin go back out that night? Did Byron? Was his
car at home or in the shop? Did Kelly work
with prosecutors to come up with her new story, pointing
the finger at Byron.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
But why would Kelly do that?
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Why would she implicate herself in Anastasia's murder if it
wasn't the truth. Could the drugs have warped Kelly's memory
when she came forward, causing some of her details to
be off. Why would Byron bring his fifteen year old
girlfriend Kelly to a murder if he did kill Anastasia.
(43:06):
Why would Byron move away and risk pissing Kelly off,
which could result in her turning on him. Why wasn't
Kelly's new account enough for Byron to be arrested. Why
did prosecutors need more like a recorded confession? And during
the June fifth recorded phone call, when Kelly asked Byron,
(43:28):
why did he feel the need to kill her, why
didn't Byron deny it.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Is your head spinning like mine is.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
All of these questions, including some great ones we received
from our listeners, have come up during the making of
this season. Respectfully, as much as some people think there
aren't any unanswered questions, it seems there are at least
a few. We are going to take a short pause
(44:00):
until the final episode during that time, Please keep sending
in your questions, thoughts, and theories. I'm also going to
post key people's timelines on Instagram. In our last episode,
we hope to be back with a potentially huge interview
that could answer so many of our questions. The views
(44:27):
and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of
the individuals participating in the podcast. If you or someone
you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts or a crisis, please
no help is available.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Call or text.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Nine to eight eight, or chat online at the Suicide
and Crisis Lifelines website at nine eight eight lifeline dot org.
To see photos, maps and documents related to this season's story,
follow The Real Killer Podcast on Instagram and at TRK
podcast on TikTok. The Real Killer is a production of
(45:07):
AYR Media and iHeartMedia, hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive
producers Leah Rothman and Elisa Rosen for AYR Media. Written
by Leah Rothman, editing and sound design by Cameron Taggy,
mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggi, Audio engineer Justin Longerbeam
(45:30):
studio engineer Graham Gibson. Legal Council for AYR Media Johnny Douglas,
executive producer for iHeartMedia, Maya Howard
Host
Leah Rothman
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com