The Real Killer Season 3: Ep. 16, The Perfect Case

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
A warning.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
This episode contains depictions of violence and conversations about suicide
that may be disturbing and triggering for some listeners. If
you are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please fast forward to
the end of this episode to find out where help
is available.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
So.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
I've been working on this for more than a year,
and you know, like I have questions. Some people wrote
in they had a lot of questions and theories and thoughts.

Speaker 4 (00:30):
Yeah, You've never been afraid of hard questions because they
do force us to take a look at our case.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
As this season is about to come to an end,
there are still so many unanswered questions, and especially since
the podcast has come out, I've gone back into the transcripts.
I've gone back to like, is there anything that I've missed.

(01:03):
I'm Leah Rothman. This is The Real Killer, Episode sixteen,
The Perfect Case. Before we can move forward with our finale,
I need to address something that's happened since our last episode.

(01:25):
Two days ago, I received an email from Byron's lead attorney,
Brian Russell on behalf of himself and the rest of
the legal team about last week's Littering Case episode. It
began in part like this, quote. We've finally digested last
week's podcast and are disappointed in how you decided to

(01:45):
approach the discrepancy with Kelly's misdemeanor. We've been nothing but open, honest,
and straightforward with you, and we are baffled by this
one point eighty in your tone and attitude toward us.
We've never concealed or obfuscated the fact that Kelly's ticket
on case net had another case number belonging to Brendan.

(02:07):
Brian continues. Throughout our work on this case, we believed
that Kelly's sentence of forty eight hours shock time, thirty
days in jail in two years probation with the suspended
execution of that sentence was accurate because the charge was
a Class A misdemeanor, she had skipped her court date
and only appeared when picked up on a warrant. We

(02:27):
believed that any discrepancy was the portion of the docket
that says that Kelly's sentence was quote consecutive with case number.
Brian continues, that's why we're confused when you said this
was a new development, that it kept you up all night.
Brian goes on to say, how in at least a

(02:48):
few documents and filings which they had shared with me
dating back to late twenty twenty three. This other case
number was mentioned in the footnotes. He says I never
asked about it. Then, Brian says there was a timeline
they shared where in the notes section this other case
number was mentioned. He says I never asked about it.

(03:09):
He also points out that there were emails exchanged where
I had questions about Kelly's docket and I never asked
about it then either. Brian wrote that I had plenty
of time and opportunity to bring this discrepancy up to them.
He's right, except the reason I never ever asked them
about it was because in the thousands of pages I

(03:29):
alone have had to go through, I never saw it.
Had I seen it, I would have asked about it
long ago. Had I seen it, the way we presented
Kelly's littering case when it first came up in episode
seven would have been very different. Again, I'm sorry, but
I never saw it. The last line in Brian's email

(03:52):
reads quote when I said I hoped you didn't feel misled.
I should have been clearer. We did not mislead you.
We did not hide anything from you. We did not
misrepresent anything to you. We were open, honest, upfront and
answered all of your questions to the best of our
ability in a complicated and fact intensive case. I remain

(04:12):
proud of our team and the work that we've done
to help free an innocent man who was deprived of
a fair trial. Let me be very clear, Byron's legal
team has been open, honest, and very available to answer
all of my questions all along the way, and I'm
grateful for that. And I never said they misled me.

(04:35):
I was just surprised that they knew about this other
case number, and in all of the times we'd spoken
about the docket it never came up. But whether or
not they knew about it is not the issue. The
reason I needed to interview them about the discrepancy was
first because I simply needed to ask them about this
other docket number, since again I had never seen it before.

(04:57):
And second, I needed to share with the lit Listen
and Byron's team that considering this other case number, I
now cannot confidently say that that was in fact Kelly's sentence,
and it needed to be addressed because I gave a
platform for the theory that that was Kelly's sentence, which

(05:17):
meant she might have been in some bigger trouble and
in turn might have cooperated with prosecutors in the case
against Byron. I know that Byron's legal team one hundred
percent believes that's Kelly's sentence, and hell, who knows it
might just be Kelly says it isn't without proof, I

(05:38):
just don't know either way. Okay, as we are about
to begin our last episode, I want to acknowledge that
even with all of the left turns that have happened
so far, we have never lost sight that this whole
podcast and investigation is in an attempt to get to
the truth about what happened to Anastasia. Now stay with me,

(06:01):
because we are not going to go chronologically. We are
going to start with my most recent interview with Byron,
which took place after both of Kelly's episodes came out.
Byron's lead attorney, Brian Russell, wanted to be on the call,
so that day, Brian and I speak for a few
minutes before Byron calls in.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
Hey, Ala, Hi, how are you good? Good good good?

Speaker 2 (06:28):
Just so you know, Brian says, there was so much
in Kelly's interview that confirms for him. She lied back
when she came forward, and she's still lying today. Brian says,
Kelly conveniently doesn't remember key things, then other times comes
up with wild new details, like a three way call
that happened between her, Byron, and Justin that night after

(06:51):
Anastasia was murdered. Brian says, that didn't happen. What do
you make of the level of conviction that she has
when she says Byron killed Anastasia and she knows it,
he knows it.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
What do you What do you make of that?

Speaker 5 (07:09):
I mean, I make of it that she wants people
to believe her. And then I also think, I mean,
she's admitted to having major problems with crack, cocaine and
meth anthetamy. Both of those drugs affect your brain in
a way that can lead to psychosis, which can lead
to the creation of false memories. So even where she

(07:31):
was when she came forward with the story, maybe she
does believe it. Maybe maybe in her mind these are
actual memories that she has created, right, but none of
them line up with any physical fact or any other
person that can support her story, any element of it.

Speaker 6 (07:56):
We don't need to I don't.

Speaker 5 (07:58):
Care why Kelly was I us know that she wied right,
I just know that her story isn't true because of
the physical evidence.

Speaker 3 (08:06):
Here we go, Okay, hold on just saying.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
Then Byron calls in.

Speaker 7 (08:12):
Okay, Willa are you there?

Speaker 1 (08:14):
I'm here?

Speaker 3 (08:15):
Okay, Byron, are you there yet?

Speaker 1 (08:17):
I am Hileiah Hi, Byron? How are you.

Speaker 3 (08:22):
Better than some people would like me to be? But yeah, no,
it's always an under the circumstances kind of question.

Speaker 7 (08:30):
But yeah, I'm good. Thanks.

Speaker 2 (08:32):
So you've listened to the podcast. I mean, you emailed me,
you've listened to the podcast. I mean, this is a
very big question right off the bat. But any anything
or anything that you want to say right off the bat,
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
I think we kind of touched on this a little
bit earlier. When I first emailed you, I said that, yeah,
I was kind of withholding John and was sort of waiting,
you know, for something, for some sort of strong reaction.
I guess one way or the other or some way
that I might contribute, and it never really materialized for me.

(09:11):
So I think as the podcasts went on and I
heard more, there was a certain point where, you know,
I was no longer able, so I actually haven't listened past,
I think because A seventh and so everything that I've
gotten since then has been kind of second hit. And

(09:34):
it's interesting because late ever since that happened, it seems
like that was really when things It seemed like that
was when for me, at least, more interesting content started
to come up. There was stuff that I had never
heard before. You did interviews with people that you know
that I had never necessarily even heard say certain things

(09:56):
that they were saying, and so, you know, way I
was glad that I wasn't able to listen because some
of that stuff was kind of upsetting and a reminder
I think of how really I guess I've lived in
a bubble, and you know, it's not like it's been
an echo chamber, but I'm in a sense I'm kind

(10:18):
of protected from a lot of people's opinions as far
as the case goes, and so it was kind of
a return to a not very good place as far
as that goes, you know, just being reminded of those
people and their and their opinions and you know, some
of the stuff that they said in that way.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
In your email, you said that you were waiting to
listen to everything or waiting for the other shoe to drop.
What was the other shoe? Like, what were you what
did you mean by the other shoe?

Speaker 3 (10:50):
So that's I think the sort of latent streak of pessimism.

Speaker 7 (10:54):
That I've got.

Speaker 3 (10:55):
It was just sort of waiting for things to take
an ugly turn. And just from the sound of it,
Kelly's episodes were were that a turn at least as
far as I'm concerned, you know, I was, I mean, honest,
I was initially a little bothered by the idea that
she would come forward after all of the information had

(11:19):
come in, after she'd had a chance, had a chance
to listen to all of the previous episodes. That really
hit a bigger pature and a greater understanding of what
was going on with the case and with things that
I just I know that she wasn't previously aware of
as far as you know, factual, and so it was
I just my my sort of kneejered reaction to that

(11:43):
was to be a little angry, I guess about just
the I guess giving her the platform to just sort
of spout whatever she's going to spout with this new
inform nation to her, or at least after she'd had
time to formulate whatever she was going to formulate, and

(12:07):
I don't know, And so that was sort of my
reaction to that. I felt was a little I don't know,
I don't want to say unfair, because that's not really
I don't know, that's not quite the right right word
for it.

Speaker 2 (12:20):
Just so you know that her not speaking, I asked
her to listen to all of the episodes before making
a decision on whether or not to talk. So it
wasn't like she did that on her own, I said,
because she was considering talking, and I just said, just

(12:42):
just wait and listen to all of the episodes and
then make a decision one way or another.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
So just you know, that's on me. That's on me.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
Yeah, And I understand that, you know, you're trying to
ensure that the person is going to have an understanding
that this is not going to be us, you know,
getting helly on and hit her with a bunch of
accusations or whatever. I mean, it makes sense because you know,
you wanted her to see that you're coming in this
with an even hand. But you know, I think that

(13:15):
the net effect was the same. I think that her
having had an opportunity to hear all of that did
give her I think of a little bit better preparedness,
I think for some of the stuff and some of
the directions that things were going to go. Although based
on what I've heard, I mean, she really didn't use

(13:36):
that to your advantage much.

Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (13:40):
You said you haven't listened to the episodes yet, but
I mean, right, it to me, just at face value,
didn't seem like somebody who had studied the podcast and
came in with you know, you know, perfect answers to questions.
I mean, sure, it's meandering, it's all over the map.
It didn't feel calculated to me. But but that is side.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
We move on. Now.

Speaker 2 (14:03):
I am a little meandering going between questions I have
for Byron and asking him to respond to some of
Kelly's allegations. Let's talk about what did Why did Anastasia
have a stun gun?

Speaker 1 (14:17):
You know, to the best of your knowledge.

Speaker 3 (14:18):
Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't.

Speaker 7 (14:21):
I don't really know.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
I don't remember as I were talking about it as
far as like reasons or anything. I don't even remember
when she bought it, or or really or anything about it.

Speaker 7 (14:33):
I knew that he had one.

Speaker 3 (14:35):
But you know, I also, again I knew that Byron
Mercia that Justin had one.

Speaker 1 (14:39):
Did you have a stun gun?

Speaker 7 (14:41):
I did?

Speaker 1 (14:42):
Why did you have one?

Speaker 3 (14:43):
I bought it, well, hardly because they had them. And
first just for me personally, it seemed like.

Speaker 7 (14:52):
Not a bad idea to own one.

Speaker 3 (14:54):
The neighborhood that I lived in was not especially I
want to say it was a bad neighborhood.

Speaker 7 (15:00):
It wasn't great. I lived around a lot of bars and.

Speaker 3 (15:03):
Clubs, and you know, there was a there was a
bit of violence that would kind of sort of erupt
here and there, fight assaults, muggings. I was mugged just
down the street.

Speaker 7 (15:18):
From my apartment one time at my point, you know,
for like ten dollars in my wallet, you know. And
I've been at.

Speaker 3 (15:26):
One point beaten up just I guess because I look
different outside of a Country and Western bar that was
in that area. Like three guys just attacked me, and
you know, so it seemed like not an unreasonable thing to.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
Have, Tara.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
I'm sure you know this, but Tara told Sergeant Kilgore
the story that all of you three, I think, tased
a homeless guy who were all there for the tasing
of this homeless guy sitting on some steps he was
drunk in Westport?

Speaker 1 (15:58):
What why? What can you tell me about that?

Speaker 3 (16:03):
I have absolutely no recall of anything like that happening,
So I don't know where Kara got that from or
what she was talking about.

Speaker 2 (16:13):
What do you make of Anastasia's stun gun being found
on her bed?

Speaker 7 (16:20):
That's a good.

Speaker 3 (16:20):
Question, and I don't really I don't really.

Speaker 7 (16:25):
Have an answer. I can only wonder about.

Speaker 3 (16:27):
It, and I'd rather not use this platform to speculate.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
Okay, all right, let's talk about some of the stuff
that Kelly said in her interview. So let's start with well,
keeping with the homeless people in Westport, Kelly said that
you paid an overweight homeless guy named Slog to do

(16:52):
jumping jacks as a way to humiliate him.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
Did that happen? Why did you do that?

Speaker 7 (17:01):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (17:02):
So this is I think a really good example of
Kelly taking a seed of something and turning it issue
something else. What happened? Uh, there was a guy who
also panhandled kind of a mass area, and we justin

(17:25):
Anastasia and I I don't remember if Kelly was there,
but I know that the three of us at least were,
and Dustin had just bought some donuts and we were
walking down the street. He had a box of a
dozen donuts and we saw this guy and he asked
us for some spare change, and Justin said, you know,

(17:49):
well out of a patenty that we were willing to come.
And so Justin said that I'll gi you a donut
if you do some jumping jacks, and.

Speaker 7 (18:01):
And the guy.

Speaker 3 (18:03):
Readily agreed and gnu and did some jumping jacks and
Justin but haven't don't that it was one of those
things where I really I was not aultigether comfortable with
the situation, but I was still in a kind of

(18:27):
like sort of moment way a hubist bias. And of course,
you know, not my proudest moment.

Speaker 7 (18:33):
By any means, but yeah, I mean that kind of happened.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
Okay, Okay. So Kelly tells the story.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
That you all went to that Mormon temple, you were
dressed up as a priest, and you did this big
tour of the church because there was a plan to
kidnap you know, the bishop or something and hold him
for ransom money. But she says, you know, you spent

(19:06):
this whole Saturday on this tour and what can you
tell me about that?

Speaker 3 (19:16):
Yeah, we we did.

Speaker 7 (19:18):
Take a short see r LDS Temple.

Speaker 3 (19:22):
On South Chrystler and Independence Surius, the States Fire Building.

Speaker 7 (19:26):
And.

Speaker 3 (19:29):
I did go wearing a clerical shirt that I owned.
You know, it was one of those one of those
things where it felt really transgressive. You know, we were
feeling pretty like goofy and like we were really just
by being there. I felt like we were doing something
we probably shouldn't be. So it wasn't really a bad thing,

(19:53):
but you know, that was something that we definitely enjoyed doing.

Speaker 7 (19:58):
It was you know, or you.

Speaker 3 (20:01):
Know, if it was like kind of pushing.

Speaker 7 (20:04):
Some boundaries, then we.

Speaker 3 (20:07):
As a as a general rule, we were all for
that sort of thing. As far as a plan, this.

Speaker 7 (20:14):
Actually came up at my trial briefly.

Speaker 3 (20:17):
They wanted to introduce something that Kelly had talked about
this then too, trying to say that we had justin
Stasia and I had a plan to blow up a
church or take the like the president or whatever they
head of the church hostage or something. So I would

(20:41):
say to that that we did have a plan.

Speaker 7 (20:46):
In name only.

Speaker 3 (20:48):
We were sitting around one night and it became this
ridiculous sort of thing. The plan in question calls for
us getting some T four and having night vision goggles
and stuff like that. Clearly, this was not an actual
plan that anybody was going to carry out or anticipated
plan carrying out.

Speaker 2 (21:10):
Okay, I mean, I think that she uses that as
an example of some of like that and going to
rob Justin's.

Speaker 1 (21:19):
Parents, that there were these.

Speaker 2 (21:22):
Plans that never came to fruition, so that when the
plan came up to kill Anastasia, she didn't necessarily believe
it because there had been so many crazy plans before
that she didn't think it was anything that you guys
would follow through with.

Speaker 8 (21:40):
Okay, Okay.

Speaker 2 (21:46):
She says that there was the night of October twenty second,
and this was a new detail that she shared with me.
On the night of October twenty second, there was a
three way phone call that night after every one was
back home, between you, Kelly and Justin. Was there a
three way call that evening?

Speaker 1 (22:07):
No, that's no, you never. You never spoke with Justin
that night.

Speaker 7 (22:15):
No.

Speaker 3 (22:16):
He dropped me off at my place and I didn't
speak with him until.

Speaker 7 (22:18):
The next morning. Okay.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
Kelly said that this was a new another new detail
she had told the story before, where she said, like,
how could you have killed her? Speaking about Anastasia? You
know you're a murderer. How do you feel about that?
And you know, and the story i'd heard this before,

(22:42):
we hadn't heard this before that she said that, you said,
I don't consider myself a murderer. Murderer, doesn't feel bad,
and I feel bad about what happened, or something to
that effect. But this time that she told the story,
she said that you grabbed her by the neck and
threw her or slammed her. Again is the wall did
that happen?

Speaker 6 (23:04):
No?

Speaker 3 (23:05):
No, I never laid my hand on Kelly in any
violent ways. That's not been my character.

Speaker 7 (23:14):
I don't That's just not me.

Speaker 3 (23:18):
And I just like to add briefly one thing.

Speaker 7 (23:28):
I think that.

Speaker 3 (23:29):
When you say, you know, oh, here's a new detail,
I think, really what you're saying is that that here's.

Speaker 7 (23:36):
Some more bullshit.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
I just think I don't know it is It is
so ridiculous to me, this idea that you know, she
just keeps piling on and piling on, and that anybody
believes her if these were things that actually happened, These

(23:59):
were things that were troubling her or whatever, she would
have come out with them years ago. There was the
time for unburdening was two thousand one, two thousand and two.
At this point, I feel like anybody giving any credibility
whatsoever to anything she is saying that his quote unquote

(24:20):
knew is the officer.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
Kelly also said that you had told other people like
Abraham and Tara that you killed Anastasia.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
What do you have to say about that?

Speaker 3 (24:37):
And that's another great example of that. Again, you know
Brom and Tara. While you know Kara's not with us anymore,
she was not a person in Vince words and Brom.

Speaker 7 (24:51):
Never was either.

Speaker 3 (24:53):
If they had something to say, if they knew something,
they are so transparent. Tarah was so transparent about everything.
She didn't keep anything in. This would have come out
so long ago, becad it actually happened. So that's that's
all I have to say about that.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
Okay, Kelly says that there was a time that you
welded a pitchfork to your car and put a chicken
chicken carcass on it and drove around town with that.

Speaker 3 (25:28):
Yeah, that's that's actually kind of true. So, like I said,
we were always into kind of transgressive stuff. I had
a group of friends who we we all had these big,
old cars and we One of my friends was a
welder and an artist, and he said, hey, you've had

(25:50):
this car for a little while, let's let's put something
on it. And I said, okay, what have you got?
I went ounce to the garage and he kind of
a pitchfork, and I said, absolutely not. And my other
friend was like, no, no, I think that's I think
you have to do that. I think that's going to
be the thing. So I consented, and he welded the
head of this pitchfork to the hood of my car.

(26:12):
About a week or two later, I was over at
my friend Robert house and Abraham was there and they
had apparently they had thought out an eight pound fire
chicken and had no intention of actually cooking. And while

(26:32):
I was using the restroom at one point from took
the chicken out to the car and put it on
the hitch work. And then when we when I went
to go leave that new thing, I saw it there
and was just like okay, because it was another We
pranked each other all the time like this. All my
friends that had these cars, we oftentimes would put food

(26:55):
on them, and there was kind of a rule that
you couldn't remove the food to you know, let the
weather and animals carry it away. So I was stuck
with a chicken stuck to front of my car. And
I know that a lot got made out of that,
calling it a chicken carcass. I think it's one good example.

(27:17):
It would have been dinner, just like a week before Adams,
but it was not finished.

Speaker 2 (27:24):
It was just a goof The next two are a
little uncomfortable, but I'm just going to ask you. So
she also, Kelly also said that you participated in necrophilia.

Speaker 7 (27:39):
I heard about this.

Speaker 3 (27:41):
I was in a way shot and also disgusted, but
also it's so outlandish that I had to laugh. It
is so unbelievable.

Speaker 7 (28:00):
I just I can't.

Speaker 3 (28:03):
Even fathom the idea of this. Unequivocally, No, no, absolutely not.

Speaker 1 (28:11):
Did you ever say it to her as as like, you.

Speaker 7 (28:14):
Know just what I think I even know.

Speaker 3 (28:17):
I don't think I've.

Speaker 7 (28:18):
Even joked about something like.

Speaker 3 (28:20):
That, Like I don't know, but I just I really
believe that that's something that she's just come.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
Up with on her own, And you understand, I just
have to I mean, I have to give you a
chance to respond to this this stuff because she says it.
She also said that you told her, and again this
is uncomfortable, But she also said that you told her
the best way for you, or the quickest way when

(28:49):
you were masturbating, was to do it over dead animals.

Speaker 3 (28:52):
Yeah, that's absurd too, same or Eason, maybe even more so.

Speaker 7 (28:57):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (28:58):
It's hard to weigh those sorts of things. I love animals,
not in that way.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
Okay, this one is definitely more serious. Kelly said that
there was a plan to kill your father to basically
keep him from having to die a very painful death
or a prolonged death, and because you know he had HIV.

(29:25):
What do you have to say about that? She tells
a very specific story that you were going to lure
your father out to like some cornfields in the middle
of nowhere and say that you had, you know, car trouble,
and while he was under the hood of the car,
you were going to shoot him.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
What do you have to say about that?

Speaker 3 (29:45):
There's a lot that I could probably say about that,
but I'll say this, I do think it's interesting that
the same or that he's two stories that she's concocted
one about a death that actually took place, and another

(30:08):
about a death as she says was planned to take place.
That they both involved driving out somewhere to a secluded
thought and shooting someone. I don't I don't really know
what to make about that, other than you know, it
seems like it's it's just kind of a motif. I
guess that shows up in her imaginings. No, that plan

(30:34):
never used it.

Speaker 7 (30:36):
The idea of that is reprehensible.

Speaker 6 (30:41):
To me.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
I love my father, but the idea of putting him
out of some of that and misery, uh, that that
was not something I had a hard enough time really
making the decision of when the time came to take
them off fights for the words, that was incredibly difficult,

(31:06):
and I would say the hardest decision I ever had
to make. And to claim that that was something that
I wouldn't impasily, it's disgusting that plan never existed.

Speaker 7 (31:20):
That thought never entered my head.

Speaker 3 (31:22):
It's just poor bullshit.

Speaker 2 (31:28):
Well, another question I have is about the June fifth
recorded phone call.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
There is a part.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
I mean, so much is made about the should or shouldn't,
and we've already talked about why you didn't just say
what are you talking about? You know you didn't deny it,
but not about that part. My question is about there's
a part in the phone call where you say to her,
just say you don't remember. Kelly says, don't you remember?

(31:56):
You don't remember what we said at all? And you say,
I do. But what is what were you referring to there?
And I know it's been a long time, but you know,
what is the idea? What is the story? I mean,
what are you about to say? There?

Speaker 7 (32:13):
Oh? I have no idea.

Speaker 3 (32:16):
I you know that that conversation was twenty.

Speaker 7 (32:21):
Four years ago. Whatever I might have had on my
mind at that time, and was about.

Speaker 3 (32:26):
To say, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (32:28):
Did you think that you were being recorded?

Speaker 3 (32:32):
Again? I don't really remember the conversation, so but no,
I mean I wouldn't. I don't believe that that ever
would have crossed my mind.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
What do you think happened that night?

Speaker 3 (32:47):
I know that some things that I've you know, learned
over the years have inclined me into one theory or another.
But here's the thing. I would argue that I'm sitting
in prison today, and I set in prison since I
was twenty two years old, more than half a lifetime

(33:10):
ago is from where I say now because people speculated,
and because people acted on theories or or talked openly
about theories without any supporting evidence, without anything backing up
what they had to say, just based on feelings, selposition, suspicion,

(33:34):
whatever you want to call them, and I refuse, both
morally and constitutionally.

Speaker 7 (33:42):
I will not do.

Speaker 3 (33:44):
The same because I don't know looking forward, you know
what those things that I speculated about might be construed as,
or what they might hew to somebody else.

Speaker 7 (33:58):
I just I can't do that, and.

Speaker 3 (34:02):
So I've basically resigned myself to ignorance until more comes in,
until I have something like really substantive, until I have
something that says, oh, we now know ex Lly and Z.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
I understand.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
Is there anything else you think I should know or
you want the listeners to know, or anything you want
to say that I haven't asked.

Speaker 7 (34:32):
I'm thinking.

Speaker 3 (34:35):
I think the big takeaway here for anybody listening really
is just that there is a lot of information. In
this case, there's a lot of stuff to have to
sit through in order to come to anything like a
reasoned conclusion about what happened, or at least a reason

(34:57):
and conclusion about whether I had anything to do with it.
But I think that if you pay attention, if you're
if you're really like looking at facts, really paying attention,
it's going to come away with a pretty clear picture
that Kelly is absolutely full of shit.

Speaker 7 (35:16):
She is a very very.

Speaker 3 (35:18):
Troubled person, I think, more so now than even what
I knew.

Speaker 6 (35:23):
But that.

Speaker 3 (35:25):
You know, really it just comes down to not so
much what she says today or or even really if some.

Speaker 7 (35:34):
Of them more exaggerated or.

Speaker 3 (35:37):
Over the top stuff that she spent years ago. It
just comes down to whether or not it atches what
we know to be fact. And that's I guess what
I would encourage everybody to look at what we know
to be fat you see that it has absolutely nothing
to do with me. That all those facts point away

(35:59):
from me. I think the decision is free sream to
make as far as whether or not you think I had.

Speaker 7 (36:07):
An aging stations then.

Speaker 2 (36:21):
So now, going back in time, the morning after I
interviewed Kelly in Kansas City, I met with Byron's legal
team at Brian Russell's law offices for what was supposed
to be our final interview. And obviously this was before
both of Kelly's episodes came out and the whole littering

(36:41):
case thing happened. The entire team was there, including Brian,
Nicole Gordon, Sean O'Brien, and Quinn O'Brien. Their paralegal, Jenna
was there too. Because I had four microphones for the
five of us, Quinn and Nicole share one. Okay, so
we'll just go around the table. Have you been listening

(37:03):
to the podcast, and if so, Sean, what is standing
out to you, any new revelations?

Speaker 1 (37:10):
What has stood out to you?

Speaker 6 (37:14):
I have been listening to the podcast. I read the
transcript of Kelly Moffitt's right along with Kilgore where she
goes to Lincoln Cemetery, and it's one thing to see
it in the transcript, but that's one tape I had
never listened to. She has never been to Lincoln Cemetery,
and that's very clear. She can't pick out the you

(37:37):
know where this where Anastasia was found, But if you've
been to Lincoln Cemetery and you knew where she had been,
you would never miss that. It's impossible to miss. She
also said that she could see headlights going by, and
if you've been to Lincoln Cemetery. You also know that
it's impossible. So that's the one thing that stands out

(38:00):
to me. And then look listening to what other people say.
You know, there are a couple people who say they
believe Kelly, but they believe Kelly because Kelly is such
a good liar.

Speaker 2 (38:15):
You know.

Speaker 1 (38:16):
The only way.

Speaker 6 (38:17):
To know whether Kelly's lying or not is to look
at what she says and find something in the outside
world that would say that's truthful. There's only one statement
where you can do that, the one where Anastasia got
out of the car. Don Rand says that happened, Bob
Whitbullshugen says that happened. At least three other unnamed witnesses

(38:40):
that were hidden from us say that happened. The physical
evidence says that happened. And so the one truthful statement
is her first one, and that's really clear, and I
think the podcast kind of makes that point. So to me,
it's how well does the lawyer at the trial take

(39:05):
on those issues and expose credibility, you know, where it
needs to be. The other thing we know about Kelly
is that she is a drug addict. An addict line,
It's just a fact of life.

Speaker 1 (39:21):
We don't need to go for here's Brian.

Speaker 9 (39:24):
What I've found interesting about the podcast is just to
hear a story told through someone else that we've been
working on and trying to figure out for, you know,
several years at this point, and so it's really a
lot of people on the team or and past members
of the team would tell you that, you know, when

(39:46):
you're working on this case, you keep waiting for well,
wait what he was convicted. There must be more evidence
than just Kelly and the tape, and you keep waiting
for something to come out somebody else to say say, well,
actually I knew this about Byron, or I saw this
thing happen, and it never happens. It's always Byron was

(40:09):
a decent guy.

Speaker 8 (40:10):
Yeah he was.

Speaker 9 (40:11):
He could come across as weird or whatever. But even
this past within the past week, we've gotten other people
that come forward with statements for us, saying I was
in need and Byron helped me.

Speaker 8 (40:25):
He was the only person to help me.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
You know, I think that person Brian is referring to
as a woman named Kim Yeoman. She's written to me too,
wanting me to know that Byron is a good person.
Incapable of committing a crime like murder. She said, during
some of her darkest days when she was a homeless
teen living in abandoned houses in Kansas City, Byron would

(40:48):
bring her food and was just a kind, generous, safe,
trustworthy person to be around. Kim wanted me to know
that she has reviewed many court documents and she has
found no credible evidence linking Byron to Anastasia's murder. She
believes Byron is innocent. Here's Nicole.

Speaker 10 (41:09):
I would say that there are a lot of nuances
to the story that didn't get told just because there's
not enough time. The one that I would point out
would be the timeline. I always go back to the timeline.
Anastasia called Justin's apartment from the Dairy Queen, and we
know that because she came back inside and told Don
Wright that her boyfriend didn't want to pick her up
because he'd already made plans with his best friend. Anastasia

(41:33):
could have made that call to Justin had Justin, Kelly,
and Byron been on their way to pick her up
at Dairy Queen from Lenexa. So it's the little things
like that that are weaved throughout the entire case that
let me know in the beginning and even today and
even as I hear you tell the story, yeah that

(41:55):
you know, it just confirms what the facts.

Speaker 9 (41:58):
Say, right, because as we're working on the habeas and
weighing that timeline back out again for the tenth time.
According to Kelly's story and her timeline, the fabricated timeline,
they pick her up Byron and Justin pick her up
at her place at four o'clock. They go straight to

(42:20):
the gas station where she calls Anastasia. And this is
at four fifteen, four thirty, and she says, I've I've
spoke to Anastasia then, and Anastasia says, where are we meeting?
And Kelly says at the Dairy Queen. Well, according to
Diane and Fran, Anastasia was already on her way to

(42:42):
Mount Washington or at Mount Washington when Kelly says she's making.

Speaker 10 (42:46):
That phone call and stayed at Mount Washington for an hour, right,
waited and then for an hour and told a couple
test driving a car in the cemetery.

Speaker 8 (42:55):
Story, No, that's okay.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
It told a couple who is.

Speaker 10 (42:58):
Test driving a car in the cemetery. They stopped her
and they said the cemetery is about to close.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
It's chili.

Speaker 10 (43:03):
So they were checking on her and they said, you know,
just to let you know, and she said, that's okay.
I'm waiting for my boyfriend. And that was an hour
after she was dropped off.

Speaker 8 (43:12):
And she's in Mount Washington.

Speaker 2 (43:14):
To Mount Washington, it's the lapage. And she asked what
time it was because she was supposed to be meeting
her boyfriend.

Speaker 9 (43:21):
Yes, and they say five thirty right, which and then
back to Kelly's fabrication, So we make this phone call. Then,
according to Kelly, well, we make this phone I make
this phone call to quote unquote lure Anastasia out. Again,
there's so many things that it's hard to keep track
of them all because not only was this not a

(43:42):
phone called a lure Anastasia out, Anastasia already had plans.

Speaker 8 (43:47):
With justin that day.

Speaker 9 (43:49):
Her stepmom talked about it, friends talked about it. And
so then then Kelly says, after I quote unquote lure
her out, we go straight from Lenexa. We go straight
from Lenexa to Dairy Queen and Independence, which she estimates
would take forty five minutes, maybe closer to thirty minutes

(44:09):
rush hour.

Speaker 1 (44:10):
Yeah, it was Russi hour on a Wednesday.

Speaker 9 (44:12):
So they get there at what five point fifteen five
point thirty according to Kelly's story, Again, Anastasia is still
in Mount Washington talking to the Lapages at that time.
So again Kelly's story is false. That also conflicts with
what Dawn Wright and Suliman Solid said, which was they

(44:36):
picked her up after dark. They picked up Anastagia up
after dark. And like what Nicole was just saying, we
know that Anastasia called Justin's apartment and talked to Justin.
So Kelly's story doesn't account for that because she says
we went straight from the gas station to the dairy Queen. Well,
then how was Anastasia talking to Justin as a part

(45:00):
man if you went straight from dairy from straight from
the gas station to dairy queen with no stops?

Speaker 2 (45:07):
And I understand because I have questions about the call
that she made from the from the Phillip sixty six
station near her house, right, Like, it has never made
sense to me based on Anastasia's plan to meet Justin
at Mount Washington Cemetery, that she would have that they

(45:28):
would have needed Kelly to lure Anastasia to the Dairy Queen.
It's never made sense to me. I asked her about that,
and she was like, I don't know. All I know
is that I made a call and I spoke with Anastasia.
So then my mind goes to, Okay, well could Anastasia,
But then it messes with the timeframe. But could Anastasia

(45:50):
have called from the Dairy Queen and left that phone
number on Justin's answering machine which had been erased some
of those early messages were gone. Could they have called
the answering machine found out where Anastasia was because and
I have some of the trial or I don't know
if it's her deposition or the trial transcript, but you know,

(46:12):
she says that Anastasia believed that they were meeting at
the Dairy Queen. That might have been the secondary plan. Right,
The first plan I absolutely believe was Mount Washington.

Speaker 1 (46:24):
Right.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
Everyone knew it was Mount Washington, Betsy, Diane fran everyone
knew they.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
Were meeting at Mount Washington.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
I wonder, and it's because I have to ask questions,
but I wondered, did something change in that afternoon? Because
then I was asking myself, did Kelly assuming Kelly's telling
the truth. Did Kelly call and speak with Anastasia before
Fran got home that day?

Speaker 4 (46:49):
Okay, so they're luring her out to be alone somewhere
to kill her, but they changed the place where she's
supposed to be alone to kill her by going through
all these extra steps.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
All I'm saying is I have to ask all these questions, right, yeah,
sure so? And then I looked at what everyone said
in terms of time, it seemed like friend got home
at four, So I don't think that Kelly could have
called before she got home. So then I'm like crossing
that off, you know, so, but I have to ask

(47:17):
the questions.

Speaker 11 (47:18):
That's exactly how we work the case.

Speaker 10 (47:20):
And just a thought on what you're saying is that
if the state didn't believe her story either, if they had, they.

Speaker 11 (47:26):
Would wouldn't needed her to record the conversation with Byron.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
I mean, she definitely had credibility issues because she was
known to have lied, right, So this phone call has
never made sense to me. But maybe what happened was
what prosecutors alleged at trial, that Anastasia had paged Byron
from the dairy queen and that's the number that was

(47:52):
dialed for Kelly at the gas station. Again, law enforcement
never pulled those payphone records from the gas station and
the dairy queen.

Speaker 9 (48:02):
When she gives that September twenty first statement to Kilgore,
he says, well, when you told me in your initial
statement back in October of nineteen ninety seven, you seemed
pretty confident about that story. And then even a few
days later, I took you out to ride around and
you took me on a You took me exactly, it

(48:23):
took me where you said you guys went, and you
seemed pretty confident about that. You even drew me a map, which,
as an aside, wasn't and still has never been produced.
We've never seen that map that Kelly drew in her
initial statement. And she says, well, I was so confident
because before we talked with you for the first time,
Byron took me back out there and drove me around.

(48:46):
Except that there was literally no time for that to
happen because she was with her grandma all day the
day that Anastasia's body was found on the twenty third
that evening, and she even admitted in one of her
statements that Byron's car was broken down, her mom and Evelyn,

(49:06):
Byron's mom had to give them rides everywhere. Evelyn had
given Byron a ride to the Moffat residence where they
hung out that evening of the twenty third, and then
on the morning of the twenty fourth, Debbie Moffatt gives
them a ride to the Jackson County Sheriff's Department to
give their statement to Kilgore.

Speaker 8 (49:26):
So her story is just it never it.

Speaker 9 (49:30):
Didn't make sense, and it shouldn't have made sense to
the Prosecutor's office and the Sheriff's department if they were
doing their job at the very beginning.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
I reach out to Kelly with this question from Byron's
legal team. When did Byron actually have the time to
take her around to show her the area of Truman
Road and the I four thirty five. Kelly sends me
a voice message answering this question. She says, after Anastasia's
murder was reported on the news the night of October
twenty third, Byron drove her around so she could learn

(50:02):
the area in case they had to speak with police.

Speaker 12 (50:05):
Noon we found out like on like the four or
five o'clock news, and then I came to your house
and stayed the night, and that's when we made it
a point to drive around and show me.

Speaker 13 (50:17):
This is just so irritating.

Speaker 12 (50:18):
I hate dealing with anything with him because he just
he's trying to rely on the fact that the investigation
was stupid and botched and they didn't do a good job.
He's trying to pick that apart and hoping to God
that something sticks. He throws anything against the wall and
sees it. He gets people fighting over these like little

(50:40):
tiny indiscretions and stuff so that you don't look at
the fact that he's fucking guilty as hell.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
For the record, I was curious what was said about
where exactly Kelly and Byron spent the night of October
twenty third. At trial, Kelly said they spent the night
at Byron's mom's apartment. She said the next morning, her
mom picked them up from Byron's and took them to
the Sheriff's department to be interviewed. In Byron's first interview,

(51:09):
he said his mom dropped him and Kelly off at
her house that night because he had to go in
for a job interview that evening, and Kelly came with him.
No mention if they spent the night there though, So
did they go to Byron's house after the job interview
or did they stay at Kelly's. Who knows where they
spent the night, and if there had been time, like

(51:32):
Kelly said, for Byron to show her around Truman Roade
and the I four thirty five that night. Back to
Nicole in our.

Speaker 10 (51:41):
Interview, Kelly's not told the same story, not one time now,
not even for the state.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
And there have been big differences.

Speaker 10 (51:50):
I mean, we're not talking about minor changes or forgetfulness.
There are just big differences in each of her stories
that's unaccounted for.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
The state didn't account for them.

Speaker 10 (52:00):
And so for the state for the state to say,
we have looked into this again and we decided not
to take the case because Kelly Moffett stands by her story.

Speaker 1 (52:10):
Well, tell us which story that is.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
Nicole is referring to hearing former Jackson County Prosecutor Jean
Peters Baker in episode eleven, here's Quinn.

Speaker 7 (52:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (52:24):
When I heard Jean Peters Baker on the podcast say
we have done the work, I wanted to throw my
headphones off. They did not do the work. They didn't
even read the work that we gave them.

Speaker 6 (52:35):
In our presentation. I promise you all they did was
read the trial transcript and call Kelly and ask her,
if we called you as a witness again, would you
say the same thing. And she said yes over the telephone,
is what she told them.

Speaker 13 (52:52):
Because what they want is a perfect case.

Speaker 4 (52:54):
They want the DNA to exclude the client, they want
the DNA to match somebody else, they want a recantation
from the eyewitness.

Speaker 11 (53:03):
They want all this, you.

Speaker 13 (53:04):
Know, perfect stuff. And if all of those things are true,
someone never would have gotten convicted in the first place.
I mean, they're looking for the perfect case and it's
never going to happen.

Speaker 6 (53:15):
But the only two things they told us to justify
their decision not to reopen this case was number one,
that Kelly had not recanted, and number two, Kelly had
not recanded, you know, And so you know, and I
was angry at this meeting, and they could probably tell it.

(53:36):
But at the end of it, I said, so you
have effectively made Kelly Moffatt the gatekeeper for your conviction
integrity unit. Kelly Moffatt has told you not to proceed
on this, and you're not proceeding on this. That is
essentially what they said, and so when you asked me
my reaction to your podcast podcast is great, but that

(53:58):
episode really me.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
I continue my conversation with Byron's legal team. A quick reminder,
this interview took place the day after my interview with Kelly.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
I asked her.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
Fourteen pages of questions. A lot of it she couldn't
remember because it's been But to be fair, it's been twenty.

Speaker 6 (54:34):
Something years, right, says, if you always tell the truth,
you don't have to remember anything.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
Yeah, well, she remembers that Byron did it. One of
the things that struck me that I had forgotten was
that at trials she did not remember going to Abraham's.
And even the prosecutor said, are you sure you didn't
stop anywhere else, you know, after the killing before going home,

(55:00):
and she was like.

Speaker 1 (55:01):
No, not that I remember. So whatever that means.

Speaker 2 (55:05):
Back in two thousand and two, at the trial, she
didn't even remember stopping at Abrahams. And the prosecution very
much believes that they stopped at Abraham's, right, correct, So,
and I'm not making her case for her. I'm just
saying there could be some things that she doesn't remember.
When she didn't even remember stopping at Abrahams back in
two thousand and two.

Speaker 9 (55:22):
Well, she didn't, and she didn't remember it in two
thousand when she gave her statement, she's in her fabrication.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
I asked her, did you guys go back to the house.
She said, I don't know, I don't remember. So she
left that open to the possibility that they may have
gone back to the house.

Speaker 6 (55:42):
She knew she would do that. Yeah, of course she
has to. Now, she has to change her story to
fit the fact.

Speaker 1 (55:48):
Couldn't it be drug brain? Couldn't it be? I mean,
couldn't that have messed up some of her memory?

Speaker 4 (55:54):
It doesn't matter because the external facts still show that
Kelly Moffett isn't being truthful.

Speaker 11 (56:01):
I mean, we can sit.

Speaker 4 (56:02):
Here and talk about drug brain and memory and all
sorts of scientific studies about, you know, how memory changes
and what happens. But the fact is it can't be
true because of these other people who don't have a
stake in this saw Kelly at different times. They saw antesthesia,

(56:22):
the dairy queen, they saw anaesthesia, the cemetery.

Speaker 11 (56:25):
Fact like, all of these.

Speaker 4 (56:26):
External witnesses disprove Kelly's story.

Speaker 11 (56:30):
So I'm saying that we.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
Can you know, some people wrote in talking about memory
loss and how that can happen as a result of trauma,
not just with drug use.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
Back to Quinn, and.

Speaker 4 (56:42):
I have empathy for Kelly too. And in this story,
Kelly gets to be.

Speaker 11 (56:47):
The hero to Fran and Emma and.

Speaker 4 (56:50):
Anastasia and the Whipwell's Hugan family. She gets to bring
them closure. You know, listening to the podcast, I cried
listening to and Emma talk they lost someone really special
and really important to them, and.

Speaker 11 (57:05):
Kelly gets to be their hero.

Speaker 4 (57:07):
I get that, you know, Kelly getting to play the hero,
and this story is really compelling, and she's made that part.

Speaker 11 (57:15):
Of who she is.

Speaker 4 (57:16):
And she has the gratitude of the Whipple's Hugan family
and the girls for providing them closure.

Speaker 11 (57:25):
It's I get why she did that, you know.

Speaker 4 (57:27):
She yes, she had to implicate herself to tell this story,
but she was never at any risk, not ever. She
came forward with an attorney who made an immunity deal
for her before she even said one word on the
record that would implicate herself.

Speaker 11 (57:42):
She was never at any risk ever, not at any time.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
Yeah, she says that she was basically made to come forward.
She was, and that when she came forward there was
no deal, no immunity promised.

Speaker 1 (57:57):
She had no idea what was going to happen.

Speaker 11 (57:58):
To Yes, that's not true, that's a lie.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
When she came over to the counselor and then the
counselor reached out to an attorney and I mean the
prosecutor's office, she said at that point there was no deal.

Speaker 6 (58:13):
The document showed the deal was on the table before
she made any statements to the police. The counselor is
what locked in her story. The councilor called the prosecutor
and essentially turned her in, forced her to tell a story,
and then this is the story that she developed off
the cuff.

Speaker 2 (58:32):
I think what Kelly said is that when she told
the counselor or was forced to tell the counselor, and
the counselor said she was going to go contact the
prosecutor's office about it, Kelly had no idea what was
going to happen to her. She had no idea at
that point she would eventually be given immunity. Right, let's

(58:53):
please talk about Anastasia's clothes and whether or not she
might have gone home. I know you very much, believe
she went home. This is my question about it if
we believe Fran's description of what Anastasia was wearing when
she left the house. And I'm not supposed to give
my opinions on anything, but I do believe that they

(59:16):
had such a detailed conversation about the clothes. I do
believe Fran knows what Anastasia was wearing that day. Fran
seems very believable, and not just in the podcast where
she gave a lot of details about it, but she
seemed pretty clear in her early interviews that this is
what Anastasia was wearing. So for Anastasia to leave the house,

(59:36):
let's just call it black clothes. She leaves the house
in black clothes. In order for Dawn Wright to see
her in blue jeans and the socks and sandals, Anastasia
would have had to go home before going to the
Dairy Queen. So that's one change to then be at
the Dairy Queen in the blue jeans, to then go

(59:56):
home again, to change out of the blue jeans into
the black clothes, to then later be killed in the
black clothes. Please try to explain to me the whole
thing is like did in a Stagia go home once,
it would have meant she went home twice.

Speaker 9 (01:00:11):
So I don't think and this is all respect to Fran,
and you know, she was a fifteen year old who
just lost her sister. She didn't give a statement though,
for five days. I believe her first statement was October
twenty eighth. By that point in time, everybody knew what

(01:00:31):
Anastasia was wearing when she was found.

Speaker 8 (01:00:34):
So I don't know that necessarily.

Speaker 9 (01:00:38):
Fran's insistence of what she remembered Anastasia wearing wasn't somehow
muddled by Bob telling her what she was wearing or
what she was found in.

Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
But we don't know that. We don't know that someone
told her.

Speaker 9 (01:00:53):
We don't know, but you can imagine that within a
small family there and having just on, you know that.

Speaker 8 (01:01:02):
The trauma of what's going on.

Speaker 9 (01:01:04):
So I mean they were I think that it's pretty
clear that they were communicating with each other about how
she was found. But I think another part of that
is you have two competing statements here. You have what
Fran believes she was wearing and what Dawn says she
was wearing. Fran saw Anastasia before she left for maybe
fifteen minutes, whereas Dawn was with Anastasia for an hour

(01:01:31):
to an hour and a half before she left, so
she had simply more time to observe what she was
wearing while she was at that Dairy Queen. And if
Anastasia was wearing what Fran said she was wearing, there
would have been blood on those clothes and in that

(01:01:53):
underwear and on that pad at some point by the
time she was found. That when Anna Stage is found,
she's wearing clean everything. But because Dawn says that she
started her period in the Dairy Queen, we know that
that means that whatever she was wearing it the Dairy
Queen would have had blood on it somewhere, and none

(01:02:17):
of that was found.

Speaker 4 (01:02:18):
And I'd just like to point out that if Detective
Kilgore had asked Solomon Suelatt for security footage, Solomon Seuelatt
had that and was ready to provide it to the police,
was never asked for it, So we would know all
of this for sure, we would know the timeline for sure,
we would know what Anastasia was wearing for sure. If

(01:02:41):
Kilgore had just bothered to ask if Solomon Suett had security.

Speaker 1 (01:02:46):
Footage, does that video still exist.

Speaker 4 (01:02:49):
No, I've spoken to mister Seuett and he got rid
of it a long time ago.

Speaker 11 (01:02:56):
The Dairy Queen wasn't a fire.

Speaker 13 (01:02:57):
He eventually sold it to some other business.

Speaker 2 (01:03:00):
It's now an because so much has been said about
Sergeant Gary Kilgore and what he did and didn't do
during his investigation. I reached back out to him again
to see if he's been listening and if he has
anything he wants to say.

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
He has not returned my calls. Here's Sean.

Speaker 6 (01:03:22):
So, at the time that Fran made these observations, she
did not know that her sister was going to be
murdered that night. And memory is very malleable, and so
I think Fran is remembering what she usually saw Anastasia
where the other piece of it is the purse or
the wallet. And how does don Wright know to describe

(01:03:46):
a wallet that Bob Whitbolsfugen finds that evening, you know,
on the stairway at their home, and then he texts
a picture of it, and the picture as an email
right different wall.

Speaker 11 (01:04:03):
I'm not sure it is though as a t okay, okay, gotcha.

Speaker 6 (01:04:08):
Okay, but yeah, but there is the purse, yeah, and That's.

Speaker 10 (01:04:13):
Also something that I think wasn't pointed out in the
podcast or may none of the purse that Don describes
is like a wallet on a long strap, and it's
not an usual size purse. And then Bob sends a
picture of that type of purse exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
For the record, in episode two, we do share Don
Wright's exact description of the purse. She said she saw
Anastasia carrying that night. Let me ask you a couple
of follow up questions. Yeah, so Anastasia was found with
three dollars and sixty five cents in her pants pocket.
If she had that money on her, she did have
that money on her, Why would that not be in

(01:04:56):
her purse or wallet? If she was carrying something that.

Speaker 4 (01:04:59):
Night, changed pants and that was money that was in
her pants before she put them on, and she the anxiety.

Speaker 8 (01:05:08):
Yeah, she went home and left the purse left.

Speaker 10 (01:05:12):
She typically didn't carry it purse, right, she typically didn't
carry a purse.

Speaker 4 (01:05:17):
Oh see, I think I think I call that magic
money when you put your coat on that you haven't
worn since last fall and you find three bucks in
the pocket.

Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
Right, But we don't know, I mean, that's a I
don't know it's.

Speaker 11 (01:05:26):
Just Ya's al anymore. That's all. There are multiple explanations
for it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
It just yea and in terms of memory.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
So one could make the argument that down right, I mean,
as we know, I witness testimony is.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
Often wrong, and she could have been wrong about Anastasia's clothes.

Speaker 11 (01:05:49):
Slomon Sala doesn't think so.

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
He doesn't describe what she's wearing.

Speaker 4 (01:05:54):
No, but he said that he was there when down
was describing what she was wearing, and he didn't have
any qualms or quibbles with it.

Speaker 8 (01:06:02):
This is coming from a conversation. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:06:04):
Sorry, I interviewed Solomons a lot separately, So this is
stuff that you would not have been privy to yet
because it just recently happened. He backs Solomon's all that
backs up down right and says that whatever Dawn said
Anastasia was wearing is what.

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
She was wearing.

Speaker 9 (01:06:20):
But you're you're correct that, I mean, of course, anybody
could be wrong about anything.

Speaker 8 (01:06:24):
When we're talking about I witness say, you know, yeah, things.

Speaker 9 (01:06:27):
That's why we go back to what she was with
her for longer than anybody else that night. She had
more of a chance to see her and what she
was wearing. And take that in and remember it. And
no reason to lie, no reason to lie.

Speaker 6 (01:06:43):
And yeah, yeah, and socks with sandals is really specific
as opposed to she was wearing what she usually wore.

Speaker 2 (01:06:53):
You know, which begs the question, isn't it odd that
on this particular Dayastasia was supposedly seen wearing something people
close to her said she never wore. Also, she was
seen caring a purse, which her friends and family said
she would never do. Why would Anastasia be seen in

(01:07:15):
clothes so out of character for her? Also, they say,
don Wright has no reason to lie. It might not
have been a lie, just an honest mistake. Also, Fran
has no reason to lie.

Speaker 7 (01:07:30):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:07:31):
Fran was in that interview.

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
On ten twenty eight, very specific also about the black bra.

Speaker 1 (01:07:38):
You know, she they had a conversation about clothes.

Speaker 2 (01:07:40):
It wasn't just like she saw Anastasia leave in these
clothes and there was no they actually had a conversation
about borrowing and like, so what do you make of that?

Speaker 1 (01:07:51):
I mean, I think it's a little bit more than
just she.

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
May or friend may have been incorrect, because it's what
Anastasia often wore. They talked, they talked, it seems like
they talked about it.

Speaker 4 (01:08:01):
They probably did have an argument, which is why Anastasa
settled on socks with sandals instead of France Doc Martins
at that time.

Speaker 6 (01:08:09):
And I could see later in the evening when she
went out a second time that her feet were probably cold.

Speaker 11 (01:08:14):
Her sister wasn't there to argue anymore.

Speaker 4 (01:08:16):
So you could take her sister's Doc Martens, and her
sister wasn't there to fight her about it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:20):
So let's talk about the pad versus tampon thing for
a second, because as we know, don Wright first said
it was a pad, then at trial she changed it
to a tampon. Kilgore found a box of tampons in
Anastasia's room. One could deduce I'm not saying I'm right,
but one could deduce that that's what Anastasia used. So

(01:08:45):
how if don Wright actually gave her a tampon? How
did she end up in a pad?

Speaker 7 (01:08:53):
She went home?

Speaker 2 (01:09:06):
So how if don Wright actually gave her a tampon?
How to chand up in a pad?

Speaker 8 (01:09:16):
She went home?

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
But if that's not what she normally used.

Speaker 11 (01:09:19):
Why and why would you change?

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
I mean, I don't know if you like once you
sorry very rapid, but once you put one in, you
don't need to change it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:28):
You don't have to.

Speaker 4 (01:09:30):
Solomon saw That said that when he went in to
change the trash in the employee bathroom, because that's when
the Anastasia used uh, there was a you know, tampon
trash in the garbage can, and there was still blood
in the toilet, which means that Anastasia is actively bleeding.

Speaker 11 (01:09:48):
At this point.

Speaker 4 (01:09:49):
No matter what she was wearing, there should be some
blood on it. So at some point she puts something
clean on. And women know, periods unpredictable. Your flow can
be heavy and light, depending on the second of the
day and which direction the wind's blowing.

Speaker 1 (01:10:09):
Okay, let me ask you this question.

Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
As I mean, as you said in a period can
start and stop, especially when in the first few years
they're very sporadic in the beginning. My question is if
Anastasia went from the dairy Queen in a pad just
for the sake of argument in a pad, to Mount
Washington and then to Lincoln where she was killed, there

(01:10:33):
would be less time potentially for there to be anything
on that pad. If she went home, changed into a
pad and then was killed hours potentially hours later, wouldn't
there be a greater likelihood that something would have ended
up on that pad after that many hours of having.

Speaker 8 (01:10:53):
On there was no blood. There was no blood in
her underwear either.

Speaker 9 (01:11:00):
And so if she went straight from Mount Washington, I
mean straight from Dairy Queen, Mount Washington Lincoln Cemetery, even
if the pad was clean and there wasn't an opportunity
for her to bleed onto that, there still would have
been blood on her underwear from when she started her
period and needed a product.

Speaker 1 (01:11:22):
We're getting very intimate with each other.

Speaker 2 (01:11:24):
A woman can feel her period coming on before anything
hits underwear. She could have gone. She could have said,
I'm getting my period, do you have anything? Gone to
the bathroom. She could have sat down and stuff could
have come into the toilet and nothing ever ended up
ending up on her underwear.

Speaker 1 (01:11:43):
It is a possibility. I think it's.

Speaker 11 (01:11:45):
A that's a stretch. That's a real stretch.

Speaker 4 (01:11:49):
I mean, I think he's actively bleeding into the toilet,
such as the male manager of the restaurant notices that
there's blood in the toilet and tampon trash in the
trash can.

Speaker 11 (01:12:00):
There's probably blood on her underwear.

Speaker 9 (01:12:02):
Plus it would have I think that they did. In
her autopsy, Doctor Young did find menstrual blood in her vagina.

Speaker 8 (01:12:09):
Still right and so right.

Speaker 4 (01:12:11):
It's more plausible that she cleaned herself up and that
after the initial period started that it slowed down, or
that she just wasn't upright as long as we thought
between the times she returned home and the time that
she was found over the time that she died in
the cemetery.

Speaker 11 (01:12:32):
Yeah, or if if she died in the cemetery at all,
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:12:36):
But again, if she went home, put on different clothes,
and changed from a tampon to a pad, then was
killed hours later, why wasn't there anything on the pad?
More hours equals more time to bleed? Right, let me
ask you, following up on a couple of things you

(01:12:56):
just said. So because I know that the Kansas City
Police crime lab came back and said that there is
a possibility that she may have been lying down when
she was killed. How do you explain a piece of
her skull being up to a couple feet away.

Speaker 9 (01:13:13):
I think that I mean a gunshot wound. There's a
lot of energy that goes into it, and especially if
you've got if someone's head is laying on the ground
to reflect that energy back. I don't think it's inconceivable
that it could have deflected part of her skull off

(01:13:35):
of the ground and out from underneath her head.

Speaker 11 (01:13:38):
Energy has neither created nor destroyed.

Speaker 4 (01:13:40):
We know this because of science, and so when it
is perfectly reasonable to assume that her head came off
the ground so that the energy from the gunshot could disperse,
it just physics.

Speaker 9 (01:13:53):
Yeah, I don't think it was inconceivable that her when
the bullet passed through her head, that it deflected part
of that material out and out from underneath her head,
because I believe it was about four feet from the
top of her head.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
This seemed a bit far fetched, so I reached out
to doctor Bill Smock, who is an internationally recognized forensic
expert in multiple fields, including, but not limited to, reconstruction
of officer involved shootings and the forensic evaluation of gunshot wounds.

(01:14:32):
Doctor Smock is also the police surgeon and directs the
clinical forensic Medicine program for the Louisville Metro Police Department
in Louisville, Kentucky. He's also a clinical Professor of Emergency
Medicine at the University of Louisville School of Medicine. When
I read doctor Smock verbatim what Byron's legal team just

(01:14:54):
said about the possibility that Anastasia was lying down when
she was shot in a piece of her skull was
sent feet away, doctor Smock says, if her head was
on the ground, there's no way that her head would
have come up from the force of the shot causing
a piece of her skull to fly and land up
two feet away. If anything, he said, it just would

(01:15:16):
have gone down further into the ground. So doctor Smock
doesn't believe their theory is possible. Okay, this is a question.
I don't think you guys are going to like feature faces.

Speaker 1 (01:15:31):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:15:32):
As I went back through the transcripts, I saw something
that was a teeny tiny bit of like a pink
flag or a burnt orange flag. In Byron's first interview
with Kilgore and Kellogg, they asked him, has just never
been suicidal? And he says, yes, you know, I think

(01:15:57):
he's attempted a few times.

Speaker 1 (01:15:59):
And he says, I'll just read it to you. He says.

Speaker 2 (01:16:04):
That night, he says, I know he had attempts in
the past, he quite a few actually.

Speaker 1 (01:16:13):
And last night he did. After Anastasia got out of
the car.

Speaker 2 (01:16:17):
I don't know. We were driving down Truman Road. We
were going over I guess it was like railroad tracks
or something. I don't know, but he was like mentioning,
you know, he was like, gee, I don't know, you know,
I'm thinking, like, you know, tonight, I could just kill myself.
I just thought he was, you know, being silly about it,
being silly about And then they jump in and ask

(01:16:37):
him a couple of questions. Okay, so here's my question.
I feel like I got a paper cut. The first
time Kelly comes forward in September of two thousand, she
says that they dumped the gun near some railroad tracks.
The only time that railroad tracks come up are when
Byron says justin thought or mentioned that he might kill himself,

(01:17:00):
and when Kelly says they dumped the gun. Is that
a tell? Did Byron say something that inadvertently he used
a detail like the railroad tracks that also then matched.

Speaker 1 (01:17:14):
Or kind of the area where Kelly or.

Speaker 9 (01:17:18):
Map or is this a tell by Kelly of her
integrating the actual truth into her fabrication.

Speaker 4 (01:17:26):
I'm counting the number of railroad tracks they would pass
over between Washington Mount Washington Cemetery before getting back downtown.

Speaker 2 (01:17:34):
But I'm not even talking like, not even in relation
to the area or Lincoln Cemetery or Truman Road. Just
the fact that Byron says Justin threatened or mentioned suicide
at some railroad tracks. Kelly says they dumped the gun
near some railroad tracks. One could say it would make
sense that Justin threatened to kill himself. It was if

(01:17:56):
it was at a place after they killed her, it
was at a place where the gun was dumped, or.

Speaker 4 (01:18:03):
They pass over railroad tracks on their way back into
Kansas City.

Speaker 8 (01:18:06):
You're saying, yeah, I just think.

Speaker 11 (01:18:07):
That three times.

Speaker 8 (01:18:09):
I think that that would be a I don't think
that that.

Speaker 9 (01:18:13):
I don't find that fact particularly alarming or anything. I mean,
take your point, but it's just to me, it just
seems like Byron is we're calling the story as it happened.
He's like, so she gets out and then we're driving
and we start going over some railroad tracks and then
oh and Justin's like talking about killing himself because of
this argument they just had, Like.

Speaker 4 (01:18:34):
It's another industrial area, so there are two opportunities before
they get back even inside the what we would call
the Downtown Loop or South Kansas City area, two opportunities
where there are lots of railroad tracks.

Speaker 1 (01:18:49):
It just stood out to me.

Speaker 2 (01:18:51):
But if he just witnessed a murder, or he just
killed her while the three of them were together, one
could say, like that would be a response that could
be believable. So I wanted to ask, because you know,
it's like, was that go ahead?

Speaker 10 (01:19:06):
Were those of the railroad tracks by Lake Quavera or why?

Speaker 1 (01:19:11):
I don't think it even matters where the tracks are.
I think just.

Speaker 2 (01:19:14):
Hearing Byron say when we were near some railroad tracks,
Justin said I should just kill myself tonight. And then
it turns out that the only other time we hear
railroad tracks is when Kelly says they dumped the gun
near them. One could just say, hmm, I wonder if
there is a connection time just having killed her.

Speaker 9 (01:19:35):
Every good fabrication incorporates elements of truth in it. But
she would have been in the car when Justin says
that as they're going over railroad tracks, and so.

Speaker 6 (01:19:46):
I would say, even a blind squirrel finds an acorn
every now and then, they're probably a couple of.

Speaker 1 (01:19:51):
Truth blind squirrel.

Speaker 6 (01:19:52):
No, no, no, Kelly's the blind squirrel. It's a corollary
to the broken clock. Even a broken clock is right
twice a day.

Speaker 8 (01:20:00):
To me, it's the same it's the same thing as
her incorporation.

Speaker 9 (01:20:03):
She's incorporating real memories into her fabrication.

Speaker 1 (01:20:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:20:07):
We've talked about theories of the case.

Speaker 1 (01:20:10):
I mean it's all speculation.

Speaker 6 (01:20:11):
Have no idea, Yeah, we really don't. But the police
theory of the case from the beginning was a murder supicide.
That's what they thought. We don't know when or if
or how Justin would have reconnected with Anastasia that night,
but for a long time that's what the police belief happened.

Speaker 2 (01:20:33):
So did Justin say he wanted to take his own
life because Anastaesia got out of the car or was
it because he just committed or witnessed her murder?

Speaker 10 (01:20:45):
I was just going to point out, just for transparency,
that we all have a different version. I mean, we
all have different ideas about what could have happened.

Speaker 6 (01:20:56):
The question is this, what is the physical evidence? It
shows that the police find her body in the cemetery,
she has been shot with a gun that was touching
her nose, when it was fired, and she did not
turn away. She was probably lying on her back when
that happened. It could be a pistol, it could have

(01:21:18):
been a rifle, but they can't say. All we know
is that there's not a gun on the scene. If
there had been a gun on the scene, this would
have been ruled a suicide, open and shutcase. But the
crime lab has said the absence of a gun at
the scene does not foreclose suicide, especially when we know

(01:21:38):
there's an unexplained automobile that was there at the scene.
We cannot exclude. Now, we don't know when that car
went by, but we do know it went by before
the police got there. It might have been a few
days before, it had rained on that like two days before,
but still a car had been by, and so we

(01:22:00):
don't know that the scene was pristine when the police arrived.
And so, beyond a reasonable doubt, did someone kill Anastatia?
I don't think they can show that it would go
on from there. You know, if she didn't take her
own life, what could have happened? How could that gun
have been missing? Well, there is evidence that Bob Whitbolsfugen

(01:22:21):
thinks he heard the gun that killed her. He thinks
he heard that shot and he was standing in a
place and said the shot came from the west of
where he was, in the general direction of Lincoln Cemetery.
It is inconceivable that he didn't go there to look
for the gun. He, by the way, has the financial

(01:22:42):
incentive to cover up a suicide because he just increased
two days earlier the life insurance policy. So there's evidence
to support that theory. And I'd probably argue to a
jury that to find Byron guilty beyond a reasonable doubt,
you have to answer these questions. That all of these
unanswered questions doesn't mean that Byron is guilty because we

(01:23:07):
can't answer these questions. They opposite is true. These questions
raise other possibilities inconsistent with Byron's guild.

Speaker 2 (01:23:29):
What do you make of people's varying timelines, Like Suleiman
and don Wright tell very different times that Anastasia was
at the dairy, Queen don Rand said that he saw
her at thirty. None of those timelines really totally work

(01:23:52):
with her getting out of the car, then they went
to Abraham's. Then she was home and Kelly was home
by nine fifteen. So what do you make of everyone's
very different timelines.

Speaker 9 (01:24:02):
Well, the time change, well that happened after but a week,
like a week after she was found. But I think
that it's that time of year when it's getting darker earlier.
I think you asked anybody in October what time something
happened last night? Your brain is still adjusting to dark

(01:24:25):
being eight o'clock versus dark being seven o'clock.

Speaker 7 (01:24:28):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:24:29):
But Don Wright does start intructor.

Speaker 2 (01:24:31):
Don Wright does say that she was here until a
half hour before closing, and we close at ten, so
that's much later, and we.

Speaker 9 (01:24:39):
Know that can't be accurate because Kelly was home by
that point in time, verified by Debbie.

Speaker 8 (01:24:46):
I mean, that was her curfew. She would have.

Speaker 9 (01:24:50):
Gone nuclear if her daughter wasn't home by nine o'clock
she was supposed to.

Speaker 6 (01:24:55):
This is why the failure to collect that video surveillance
is so prejudicial to the defense, because we would have
a definitive point of time at which they left the
dairy Queen, and then we have DeBie Moffatt establishing when
Kelly got home, and we would have those two points

(01:25:15):
in time fixed, and that would let us test everything
in between, but and reenact on a clock whether or
not Kelly's story is even plausible given the timeline and.

Speaker 10 (01:25:31):
At the end of the day, Kelly told don Right
Justin didn't want to come to Independence to pick her
up because an Annastasia told don Wright that Justin didn't
want to come to Independence to pick her up because
he was hanging out with his best friend. Does that
sound like someone who's plotted to kill her all day
he doesn't want to come get her.

Speaker 3 (01:25:50):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:25:51):
I just wanted to add.

Speaker 2 (01:25:52):
That a lot of people wrote in They had a
lot of questions and theories and thoughts.

Speaker 1 (01:25:59):
One of them was is Byron a sociopath?

Speaker 2 (01:26:05):
And I know that you had him evaluate it, so
I wanted to ask you about that.

Speaker 9 (01:26:10):
Absolutely no evidence of sociopathy or any personality disorders or
anything like that. And in fact, you know, part of
us we were wondering if maybe he was on the spectrum,
and I think that kind of came back as inconclusive,
but which you.

Speaker 8 (01:26:29):
Know, we were. We were interested in that for explaining
some of his.

Speaker 6 (01:26:34):
Demeanor.

Speaker 9 (01:26:35):
Demeanor, Yeah, and that's not that's nothing that when you
get to know Byron, he's not, you know, you see
him for who he is. But I could understand why
some people would think he was I hate to say weird,
but why he was different.

Speaker 6 (01:26:53):
Well, he's brilliant. Yeah, he is smart, and so he
intellectually ruminates on a lot of things, and you know,
people can draw conclusions from that, but that's just how
Byron he is. You know.

Speaker 9 (01:27:05):
The other thing is we got his prison conduct records
and he only in twenty some odd years of being
in prison, has two conduct violations, one for staying up
past curfew to read a book and the other for
working on his Innocent's website when they had told him
to stop working on his innocence website. If he was

(01:27:26):
a sociopath, that would be documented.

Speaker 2 (01:27:29):
At this point, Brian just answered, Actually, another listener's question
about whether or not Byron is autistic. The listener asked
if Byron is on the spectrum, suggesting that could explain
some of his behaviors and judgments. Brian just said that
testing came back inconclusive. One listener wrote asking if the

(01:27:51):
phone records can still be retrieved. It seems that answer
is no. Another person wrote in asking about the weight
of the bullet fragment, wondering if that could tell us
something about the kind of gun that was used, so
the weight is fifty six point one grains, which unfortunately

(01:28:11):
doesn't rule out a lot of calibers. Another person wrote
in asking if there was a metal detector ever used
to look for other bullet fragments at the site where
Anastasia died. A metal detector was used the day her
body was found. According to a police report, there were
several small to medium size metal objects located as deep

(01:28:35):
as eight to ten inches below the surface of the ground.
None were bullets. Many listeners asked if this wasn't in
fact a murder suicide, that maybe after Justin took Byron home,
he went back out, met up with Anastasia, killed her,
then took his own life. Sadly, there's really no way

(01:28:57):
to prove that. Another question that came in was about
what items were picked up from Abraham and taken to
Tara that night, and there are conflicting stories about that.
There are also conflicting stories about whose house they went
to first. It's hard to know if there's a there
there or if it's just that too much time had

(01:29:19):
gone by and those memories had faded. Let's talk about
Bob for two seconds. Is there for all of the
stuff that seems ridiculous that Bob came up with, like
the caravan of cars. Is it possible that some of
the other things he was just mistaken about, like the clothes,

(01:29:46):
like the underwear and jeans at the house.

Speaker 1 (01:29:50):
Could they have been friends? Could they? I mean, he
doesn't report those for a while, right, So.

Speaker 2 (01:29:58):
Even though he's says that he found them not long
after the murder, you.

Speaker 1 (01:30:04):
Know, he said a lot of things.

Speaker 2 (01:30:05):
Yeah, so it's hard to say, like we're gonna believe
everything that Bob says, or we're gonna pick and choose
some of the things that we believe Bob said was true.
Well we've you know what I mean, Like the audience
is listening and they're like, well, Bob helps us in
this way, but it is ridiculous in this way.

Speaker 4 (01:30:24):
Or because we have external verification again, like when he
talks about the underwear being in the saying and the
genes being there, we do know that at least somewhere
on this timeline, Anastasia cleaned herself up because her underwear
is clean, her body is clean, the pad is clean,
so she had to clean herself up.

Speaker 6 (01:30:43):
So but with Bob, we look at him the same
way we do Kelly. And so with Bob. I mean,
the purse that he took a photograph of and email
to Detective Kilgore matched perfectly the description of the one
that Dawn writes. AW, So that's pretty good evidence that
he's you know that the panties and the and the

(01:31:07):
genes and the laundry those support his theory that Anastasia
went home. And so that's how we look.

Speaker 2 (01:31:17):
At everything in the case a chance that don Rand
was incorrect and identifying Anastasia on Truman Road that night that.

Speaker 9 (01:31:28):
Incorrect, it would be such a coincidence that they that
they just happened to fabricate a story about Anastasia getting
out of the car at around dusk, and then a
mechanic at that exact location looks at a picture over
and says, yeah, that's the girl I saw get out

(01:31:50):
about dusk.

Speaker 2 (01:31:52):
I mean, I asked Kelly about that. I was like,
what do you make of Don Rand having seen Anastasia?
And she was like, and don't quote me, because you know,
but she said, we were stunned because it bolstered the
story that we made up. We couldn't believe how how lucky,
we got that there was somebody.

Speaker 8 (01:32:12):
Wait a minute, hold on, hold.

Speaker 14 (01:32:13):
On when when when she exactly when was she stunned
about that? When she says Byron right, he didn't know
that there was When did they find out that somebody
at a gas station says they saw her?

Speaker 8 (01:32:26):
I don't know, but that's the that's my question for Kelly.

Speaker 9 (01:32:30):
When did you and Byron supposedly find out that an
independent witness saw Anastasia get out of the car, because
if that was a week in the investigation.

Speaker 1 (01:32:42):
Exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:32:43):
I mean, I didn't ask Kelly, but I was just
going to say, because Terra spoke with Don Round, what
do you think is going to be the greatest likelihood
of you getting Byron and a new trial? Will it
be the Brady violations or what?

Speaker 9 (01:33:06):
We do believe that the Brady violations are the strongest
and clearest, especially the fact that they did not disclose
Kelly's criminal record before trial. There's a Missouri black letter
law right on point when you have a single witness
that you're resting your case on and you failed to disclose.

Speaker 8 (01:33:30):
Evidence related to their credibility new trial.

Speaker 6 (01:33:35):
Yeah, the other claimed that I think is equally important
if not more so is a now Coup versus Illinois violation,
which is the prosecutor presenting evidence that they know or
should know is false, and the transcript they used to
bolster Kelly's credibility is false. I wanted to point out

(01:33:57):
that all this discussion we're having is discussion that should
have happened in the jury deliberations. You know, you could
picture making the movie twelve Angry Men about this case,
or twelve angry people about this case. We should be
you know, the jury should have been the one arguing
these facts, and they didn't get any of it. They
barely got any of it. And we can lay the

(01:34:19):
blame at the police for not telling the prosecutor everything,
not forwarding Bob's emails. We can blame the prosecutor for
not telling the defense about Kelly's conviction, the fact that
she's under warrant when she's giving statements and depositions about
the case. And you know, we can blame the prosecution

(01:34:39):
for producing a false transcript that all you need to
do is ask a court reporter like we did, to
transcribe it and you get a truthful version of it.
This is what court reporters are trained to do and certify.
So it's now certified beyond question that the state used
a false transcript, and so under natpoo versus Illinois, if

(01:35:02):
there is any likelihood that it would have affected the verdict,
then Byron is entitled to a new trial. The big
issue is always procedural technicalities. We're not just allowed to
walk into court and say, here's the new evidence, let
him go. We have to show that somebody blocked this
evidence from getting into early Europeans and that's really the

(01:35:27):
challenge for us.

Speaker 2 (01:35:29):
Do you feel that Byron is legally innocent or factually innocent.

Speaker 6 (01:35:35):
I think he's factually innocent, And by factual innocence, I
mean he didn't kill anyone, And you know, legal innocence
and factual innocence is kind of a bizarre little distinction,
but he didn't do it. And I believe that.

Speaker 9 (01:35:52):
Yeah, I believe Byron is actually innocent. I didn't believe that.
I didn't have a opinion about that when I first
got involved in the case.

Speaker 8 (01:36:02):
When I first got involved in.

Speaker 9 (01:36:03):
The case, I knew he was legally innocent because I
knew he didn't get a fair trial. And I believe
I don't everybody deserves a fair trial. What else is
the system if we don't have fairness? But you know,
very quickly within getting into this case is when I
figured out and fully believe that he's actually innocent.

Speaker 8 (01:36:23):
It is not in Byron's character to do something like this.

Speaker 9 (01:36:27):
He just simply is not the kind of person that
would be a you know, quote unquote thrill killer or something,
or kill someone because they were annoying. He's too thoughtful,
he's too empathetic, he's too good of a human to do.

Speaker 8 (01:36:43):
Something like that.

Speaker 9 (01:36:44):
And the fact that there is not one shred of
evidence other than his lying ex girlfriend to convict him
is Yeah, I have very strong feelings about that, and
it makes me mad.

Speaker 8 (01:36:59):
It makes me.

Speaker 9 (01:36:59):
Sad, It makes me scared for other people that have
to go through this system that seems to have no
interest in reforming itself or actually being fair when that matters.

Speaker 4 (01:37:11):
I believe Byron is innocent because I've done the investigation.
I went out and I talked to people, We had
the forensic evidence examined by people who were finally provided
with the materials that they needed to do a true examination,
And at every turn, Byron is innocent. Every single time,
I have in the past started an investigation and found

(01:37:34):
definitive proof that someone was guilty, usually by DNA evidence,
and it's heartbreaking, but you have to step away from
those cases. I can't say someone is innocent without having
done the investigation myself. I'm not going to put my
integrity or my reputation on the line to do that.
I believe Byron Case is innocent. Factually, legally, he did

(01:37:58):
not do this.

Speaker 1 (01:38:00):
I believe Byron is actually innocent.

Speaker 10 (01:38:02):
I like Quinn, think that he's legally innocent and actually innocent.
I don't know what it would take to get me
to change my mind.

Speaker 1 (01:38:08):
I was gonna have to take those facts as they come, So.

Speaker 11 (01:38:11):
I don't know, say the evidence in this case is
what really matters.

Speaker 4 (01:38:16):
And you know, we can pontificate and theorize all day
about what really happened.

Speaker 11 (01:38:21):
That's an interesting thing to do.

Speaker 4 (01:38:24):
But every time we do that, every time we talk
about theories about what happened, and none of those theories
involved Byron.

Speaker 11 (01:38:31):
And that's the point. Byron Case didn't do.

Speaker 2 (01:38:33):
This anything else before we say goodbye.

Speaker 8 (01:38:40):
I don't think so.

Speaker 9 (01:38:41):
I think we just we really appreciate the time and
attention that you've given to this, and we do.

Speaker 8 (01:38:46):
We appreciate the fairness and the the.

Speaker 9 (01:38:52):
That you are also fact checking us and trying to
keep us honest. Then the new things even that you've
discovered has been very helpful and illuminating for us, and
so we appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (01:39:04):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:39:09):
I don't even know where to begin with how to
end this season. I have said it since the beginning.
I have only been in search of the truth. Although
other people have been mentioned as potential persons of interest,
doesn't it really come down to who do you believe
Byron or Kelly? By your Instagram comments, messages and emails,

(01:39:35):
I can see there are listeners very much on both
sides of the fence. It's pretty much divided. Byron has
told the same story since nineteen ninety seven. There's no
physical evidence that links him to the murder. His legal
team says, there are people who saw Anastasia that night,
which proves she got out of the car, and her

(01:39:55):
genes and the washing machine and underwear soaking in a
sink proved she went on home. They say, if she
got out of the car, Byron didn't do it. They say,
if she went home, Byron didn't do it. They also
say the TACIT admission is now a moot point because
Byron now can be heard saying.

Speaker 1 (01:40:14):
We should talk about this.

Speaker 2 (01:40:17):
Kelly says she witnessed Anastasia's murder and the guilt she
felt caused her to spiral into a drug addiction that
almost killed her. She says she didn't come forward for
years because she was scared being told by Byron she
was as guilty as he was. She also says, before
being made to come forward, she told her dad, her

(01:40:38):
ex boyfriend Jim, and her friend Antigianino that Byron had
murdered Anastasia. Kelly says she is iffy on some details,
but remembers the important things, like Byron is the one
who pulled the trigger. About the TACIT admission call, Kelly asks,
if Byron is innocent.

Speaker 1 (01:40:59):
Why didn't he just deny.

Speaker 2 (01:41:01):
With all of the research and interviews we've done, there's
still so much you the listeners, and I haven't been
able to reconcile, Like the phone call Kelly says she
made from the gas station to Anastasia, whether or not
Anastasia went home that night. The possibility that some of
the eyewitnesses might have been wrong about what Anastasia was

(01:41:24):
wearing or even if they saw her at all. Why
didn't Anastasia fight back or run? Why did Justin take
his own life. Why didn't Byron deny anything in that
June fifth call?

Speaker 1 (01:41:38):
Patrick Rock?

Speaker 2 (01:41:39):
Where were you that night, Bob? Why did you go
to the exact spot where Anastasia's body was found in
Lincoln's cemetery before anyone informed you where it was prosecutors?
Why allegedly were certain things withheld from Byron's defense team
and Sergeant Kilgore. Why did this investigation.

Speaker 1 (01:41:59):
Seem to go so wrong?

Speaker 2 (01:42:01):
Why were obvious things like phone records never pulled that
could have potentially solved this case right away? Because it
seems the way this investigation was handled is really why
we have so many unanswered questions. Also, why did Kelly
agree to talk with me She didn't have to, and

(01:42:23):
why didn't some people want to talk people who had
already written affidavits for Byron, Horton, Lance, doctor Thomas Young,
and Judge Charles Atwell. Like I said at the beginning
of this episode, although we have spent so much time
talking about Byron and Kelly and what can and can't

(01:42:44):
be proven in this case. We must remember that all
of this is about getting justice for Anastasia. Was justice served.
A lot of people, including Anastasia's family, say yes, the
real killer is in prison, case closed. Others say no,
the real killer is still out there or dead. Regardless,

(01:43:08):
the courts will decide if Byron deserves a new trial
or not. Thank you to everyone who participated, especially Anastasia's
sisters Fran and Emma. Our hearts go out to you
and your family. The views and opinions expressed in this

(01:43:33):
podcast are solely those of the individuals participating in the podcast.
If you or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts
or a crisis, please no help is available. Call or
text nine to eight eight, or chat online at the
Suicide and Crisis Lifeline's website at nine eight eight lifeline

(01:43:56):
dot org. To see photos, maps and documents related to
this season's story, follow The Real Killer podcast on Instagram
and at TRK podcast on TikTok. The Real Killer is
a production of AYR Media and iHeartMedia, hosted by me

(01:44:17):
Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and Elisa Rosen for
AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman. Editing and sound design
by Cameron Taggi. Mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggi. Audio
engineer Justin Longerbeam studio engineer Graham Gibson. Legal council for

(01:44:39):
AYR Media, Johnny Douglas, Executive producer for iHeartMedia, Maya Howard

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Real Killer Season 3: Ep. 16, The Perfect Case