October 7, 2021 • 21 mins
Facebook was all over the news this week for good reason: They knew they were harming our kids and they did it anyway. An explosive series published by The Wall Street Journal last week revealed the extent to which Facebook maintained silence while fully aware that flaws in its platform were hurting its users. Georgia Wells, one of the authors of that series, joins us to share her thoughts.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
From the Recount on Marina nine in and you're listening
to the Recount Daily Pod Today's Thursday, October seven. I
don't know what Facebook can do to prepare that trust,
but something that whistleblower has hit on in her testimonious transparency,
and I think that transparency can be a pretty good
kind of anecdote to this kind of broken trust. That
was Georgia Wells, co author of The Wall Street Journal's
(00:30):
explosive expose on Facebook's refusal to change its business practices
in light of research that showed it was harming its
own users. We'll dig into that a little later on,
but first your morning headlines. We begin in Texas, where
late last night, a federal district court judge blocked enforcement
of a Texas abortion law that effectively banns a procedure
(00:52):
after six weeks. Siding with the Biden administration, Judge Robert
Pittman called the law unconstitution saying, quote, women have been
unlawfully prevented from exercising control over their lives in ways
that are protected under the Constitution. The judge ruled that
the law should be put on hold immediately while the
(01:13):
Texas statute makes its way through the lower court system
next to Washington, d C. Where the threat of a
federal default has been averted for now. Senate Democrats have
agreed to an offer from Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell
that would raise the debt ceiling just enough to fund
the government until December three. That gives Democrats almost two
(01:36):
months to come to an agreement on the reconciliation bill.
The planned vote is expected later today. Next up, we
turned to health, and for once, it's not COVID. You've
been reading and hearing about COVID nineteen vaccines for months now,
but how about one for malaria. Yesterday, the World Health
Organization endorsed a vaccine made by Glasgow Smith Klein, the
(02:00):
st ever developed against parasitic disease. Clinical trials in Ghana,
Kenya and Malawi have found the vaccine to be fifty
effective in preventing severe malaria in the first year. We
should know the resistance wanes with time. Malaria, a disease
spread by mosquitoes, kills about half a million people a year,
half for children under the age of five. For the
(02:21):
vaccine to reach all the people who need it, the
next step is for GAVI, the Global Vaccine Alliance to
decide if it's a worthwhile investment and buy it on
behalf of interested countries. That could take over a year,
and its approval isn't guaranteed. Still, the whose director general
tow did the vaccines promise saying it quote will change
(02:41):
the course of history. We end with Facebook, which has
been dominating headlines this week after a company whistleblower testified
before Congress about its questionable practices. Former product manager Francis
Howgan accused the company of knowingly prioritizing growth over the
welfare of its users. How It added that Facebook's own
(03:02):
internal research showed its platform particularly harmed teenage girls. In
a post, Suckerberg denied the claims. Facebook silence while being
fully aware that flaws in its platforms were hurting its
users was the subject of an expose by The Wall
Street Journal last week. We dig into the Facebook controversy
with one of the series co authors, Georgia Wells. That's
(03:23):
in today's Daily Deep Dive. Georgia, thanks so much for
joining us. Thanks for having me so Georgia. What are
the Facebook files that the Wall Street Journal put out?
The Facebook files are the Wall Street Journals attempts to
understand everything Facebook new over these past couple of years
and didn't disclose that often conflicted with how Facebook presented
(03:46):
these issues publicly, the ones that I worked on the
most closely, they were looking at how Instagram effects teen
girls and repeatedly Instagram researchers found that Instagram is harmful
for a sizeable percentage of these users, most notably teen girls.
And I can rattle off some of the stats if
you want that have just stuck when they throughout the reporting.
(04:07):
So what stood out to you? Of teen girls said
that when they felt bad about their bodies, Instagram made
them feel worse. And also among teens who reported suicidal thoughts,
British users and six percent of American users traced this
desire to kill themselves to Instagram. Wow, that is something,
(04:28):
It's really powerful. Like these are serious findings. What is
it about Instagram that's made it's so toxic for this
demographic specifically? So this thing called negative social comparison. Negative
social comparison happens when you're looking at content with the
mindset of how do I stack up next to these
(04:49):
people who I'm looking at rather than oh, I'm like
looking at this person to learn more about them, and
negative social comparison can happen in all aspects of your life.
It certainly predates Instagram, but the documents they discuss how
negative social comparison is worse on Instagram, and the reasons
are a it's addictive product mechanics and be this highlight
real culture. On Instagram, it's everybody posts the best moments
(05:14):
of their lives that but with the impression that this
is what my life is always like. And the researchers
discuss that it's really an Instagram specific problem and how
severe these effects can be because on Snapchat, much of
the content is buffered with these space filters, so you
can turn your face into a puppy or something like that,
and those face filters they divorce the content from reality.
(05:35):
It's you know, you're not actually a puppy, obviously. On TikTok,
a lot of the content is more performance based, and
so that separates this content from your real life. And
so there are these aspects on Instagram's two biggest competitors,
TikTok and Snapchat, that mitigate this negative social comparison. But
(05:55):
on Instagram, the focuses on the body and the lifestyle,
and the researchers called out as being like a perfect
storm for teens and particularly teen girls. So, Georgia, how
did you get a hold of these internal documents in
the first place? So I can't get into that too much,
but the world knows now. Francis Hogan was an employee
(06:15):
at Facebook and then kind of became concerned about how
the company was handling some of the issues related to this,
and left Facebook with thousands of pages of documents. And
Francis has now approached lawmakers and regulators about these concerns
and with these documents as evidence of what she was
seeing while she was at the company. And so the
(06:37):
Wall Street Journal kind of then came into these documents,
and now we've reported this series of stories based on them. Sure,
there are a lot of employees at Facebook over the
years that have wanted to come forward and some of
the things they've seen what made her take this huge staff.
Francis talks about her love of the company, that this
wasn't a kind of spurned employee who was described told
(07:00):
that she really believes in Facebook and believes the company
can do better, and has described that as a motivating
factor and coming forward. So I think that's a very
powerful moment as an employee who starts at a tech
company and it is really optimistic about solving some of
these issues, but then sees the company dissolved the team
she was working on and many of those employees left
(07:22):
the company or were reassigned to other teams at Facebook.
So I think that kind of shifted at some of
her confidence that the company was going to do right
by these issues. What do you think it is that
Francis wants by releasing these She said in testimony that
she wants lawmakers to take action, that she believes that
(07:43):
these issues can be solved, but that Facebook will not
solve them on its own, and she believes lawmakers need
to act step in and address these issues that she
believes are solvable. And she believes that this could show
consumers that this is not a real choice, that consumers
can and have a social network that allows them to
express themselves but also has less of these kind of
(08:05):
issues around misinformation and hate speech and bullying and toxic
content for teenagers. We've got to take a quick break,
but we'll be right back with Georgia Wells, reporter at
the Wall Street Journal on the Recount Daily Pod. Welcome
back to the Recount Daily Pod podcast from The Recount
and I Heart Radio. I'm here with Georgia Wells, reporter
(08:27):
at the Wall Street Journal, and we're talking about the
journal's Bombshell series Facebook Fiance. You mentioned you specifically reported
on the company's strategy with younger users. Why do you
think it is that Facebook so focused on reaching that
next generation. Facebook wants growth. Facebook wants to keep on
growing like it's been growing. And Facebook has signed up
(08:49):
nearly every adult and developed markets. So what's left there's
developing countries, and my colleagues have written just really compelling
articles about what happens when Facebook kind of enters developing
markets without kind of the people in place to moderate
the content. There's also young people getting their smartphones for
the first time. This is a moment in the child's life.
(09:11):
They get a smartphone and then they start to decide
which apps they want to put on it, and Facebook
in the documents, it is really clear Facebook really wants
these kids to put a Facebook product on their app
before they put a product from a competitor on their app,
because Facebook is concerned if these kids kind of become
addicted to a competitor's app that their next kind of
(09:33):
funnel of growth then might not be lined up to
use their products. So there were internal documents on plate dates.
What did Facebook see there? Facebook saw play dates as
quote a growth lever. Then explain a little bit about
play dates. Every child goes on play dates and they
need to coordinate this play date. So Facebook saw this
as an opportunity to inject one of their apps into
(09:57):
this logistical process that is repeated among every single child
and every single country around the world. So in the
documents we see Facebook discussing like, well, maybe we could
have an app that's used during the play date. And
then they talk to parents and there's a resounding method
from parents that they do not want screens open during
(10:17):
play dates. So then Facebook researchers are like, well, maybe
and Facebook app could be used to coordinate the play date.
So like, as the children are talking perhaps on a
Facebook product, they could loop in their parents to make
that plate date actually happen. But you can see Facebook
looking at these repeated activities that could kind of help
introduce other children to their apps. So when two children
(10:39):
are playing, one child if they bring them Facebook, that
introduces the other child to Facebook, then that other child
goes to meet another child, and then they've introduced that
child to Facebook. So is this this action that can
keep on repeating and repeating kind of including more and
more children. What exactly is Instagram Kids? I know Facebook
has put a pause on this for now, but what
(11:00):
was it supposed to be? Instagram Kids was supposed to
be Facebook's version of Instagram for children under the age
of thirteen. Currently, Instagram is for users thirteen and older.
We don't know exactly what Instagram for kids would look like,
but Facebook has acknowledged that it was working on this,
and so now everybody's trying to learn as much as
possible about, like how do you make an app for
(11:22):
children and how do you do this safely? How do
you think Facebook came up with this idea of Instagram Kids,
What were they hoping to achieve and why was it past?
In the documents, we can see Facebook concerned about their
growth and looking for ways to make sure that they
are like the app that children use when they get
their first smartphone. We also have heard from Facebook executives
(11:44):
concerned that children use regular Instagram, that regular Instagram children
will lie about their age sign up and then they're
suddenly on this app that wasn't built for them. And
so Facebook executives has framed this misuse of their platform
as one of the reasons Instagram for Kids exists. A
question I have about this logic is stay Facebook releases
(12:08):
Instagram Kids, I don't know what that does to dissuade
children from still logging onto Instagram using a false age
like regular Instagram, because anyone who's spent time around children
knows that for many kids, the coolest app is the
one for like the generation ahead of them. Knowing what
you've been able to read about the report and the
(12:30):
findings and looking into all of this, what surprised you
the most about what you found? I was really surprised
by the level of sophistication that Facebook brought to this
research that in the past, when I've asked Facebook executives
about these sorts of issues, the responses have been quite vague,
and the responses have also been couched and like, well,
(12:51):
this isn't Instagram specific, this is social media, this is
media in general. But the documents lay out lots of
evidence for why this is an Instagram specific problem at times,
and also a very nuanced understanding of what's happening and
so Facebook's research on Instagram. This represents one of the
clearest gaps that I've ever seen between Facebook's understanding of
(13:16):
itself internally and Facebook's public position when executives were speaking
to lawmakers or the media or in other public situations.
Are you in touch with any current employees. I'm just
curious what they're saying about all of this fallout, and
in contact with internal employees who are anxious, who are scared,
who want their company to address many of these issues,
(13:38):
and are kind of watching to see whether in all
the company's commitment sort of lines up with that. Facebook
has many, many researchers, people working on integrity issues who
are deeply committed to wanting to make the platform a
better place. The tension points have been whether higher up
leadership kind of takes these suggestions into account, and basically
(13:59):
the extent which the company is willing to sacrifice aspects
of growth in order to address some of the potential
harms their platform can cause as your organization. The Wall
Street Journal points out, despite the numerous media exposures, Facebook
hasn't really fixed the problem. Do you think this moment
is different for Facebook. So in the past, what we've
(14:20):
seen is Facebook executives tend to view problems as problems
of pr rather than problems of their product. Is crises
that need to be mitigated in terms of perceptions, but
not necessarily things that need to change with their platform.
What's interesting about this moment is these documents spell out,
in Facebook's own terms, their views of the problem. The
(14:43):
internally Facebook executives Facebook employees view this content view these
kind of apps experiences of their users is potentially problematic.
I just I don't know what they'll do with that information.
We're gonna posity a quick breaking be right back with
Georgia well reporter at the Wall Street Journal on the
Recount Daily Pod. Welcome back to the Recount Daily Pod,
(15:09):
a podcast from The Recount and I Heart Radio. We're
talking about the bombshell reporting from the Wall Street Journal
called the Facebook Files, and I'm joined by Georgia Wells,
reporter at the Wall Street Journal. At this point, what
are you watching? I'm watching to see what happens with
Instagram kids. So Facebook has said that they're putting this
on hold, that they're pausing it, But does that mean
(15:33):
just the wheels have ground? To a halt internally, or
does that mean they're pausing their public discussion of it,
or does that mean any employees assigned to those projects
will be assigned to other projects. These are the questions
I'm trying to figure out and trying to answer right now.
I'm also going to be watching what lawmakers do with
this motivation. They have to kind of address some of
(15:57):
these issues. I don't think the American Black I don't
think lawmakers or regulators have really kind of grappled with
this question about should there be apps and technology for children?
And it is, so, what are the measures that would
be in place to protect them? Because most of the
protection for children is from KAPPA, that Children's Online Privacy
(16:20):
Protection Act, and that prevents tech companies from collecting data
on children under the age of thirteen, But that doesn't
do a whole lot to protect the rights of children
under the age of thirteen who might be on technology
platforms anyways. So the question I think is, like, for
these children, if there's an app for them, what's the
best way to do this? MH. This reminds me of
(16:41):
the tobacco industry and the hearings on Capitol Hill and
how the tobacco industry was aware of the health issues
they were causing. Do you think this moment is somehow
going to force Facebook to change. It's an amazing moment
because the hearings I've been listening to there's very broad
bypartisan support. So Senators Richard Blumenthal and Marshall Blackburn, they
(17:06):
hardly agree on anything, yet they've come together to call
for investigations into Facebook and to try and learn more
about what Facebook knows. So that's as compelling an indication
as I've ever seen of kind of commitment from lawmakers
and by partism commitment from lawmakers to want to address
these issues. My sense, in doing this interview with you today,
(17:29):
you really believe that something has changed this go around
for Facebook. I really believe something has changed. I don't
know Washington well enough to know if the shift will
lead to action, but the conversations I've been hearing from
lawmakers are different conversations than before. They're much savvier this
time around. You were able to get these leaked documents.
(17:49):
We now know the identity of the woman, but from
somebody at Facebook you're speaking to employees. If you had
the opportunity to sit down with Mark Zuckerberg or Adam
was Arry or Cheryl Sandberg? What would you ask him?
When did they find out about this research? What was
the moment in time that they knew it, and why
(18:11):
didn't they share it with lawmakers who asked at the time.
Senators Bloomenthal and Blackburn wrote Facebook a letter over the summer,
and they asked for this research and Facebook said no.
Facebook said this research is proprietary and kept internally to
foster discussions. And so I want to know if Facebook
finds more evidence of harm that its users experience in
(18:36):
the future, will Facebook disclose this information. My inboxes filled
with emails from parents right now. There's this through line
in many of these emails around trust that many of
these parents trusted Facebook with their children and had expected
if Facebook were to find evidence a harm that Facebook
would have disclosed it. So there appears to be this
(18:58):
broken trust, at least this is what the parents are articulating.
So I don't know what Facebook can do to prepare
that trust. But something the whistleblower has hit on in
her testimonious transparency, and I think that transparency can be
a pretty good kind of anecdote to this kind of
broken trust. Georgia Wells, Wall Street Journal reporter. I want
(19:19):
to thank you very much for joining us to talk
about Facebook. Thank you, Rena. It's a really good conversation.
And now to the look ahead. Here's what else we're
watching today. President Biden arrives in Illinois to promote the
COVID nineteen vaccine. The trips a follow up to two
recently issued executive orders, one requiring all healthcare workers and
federal contractors to be vaccinated, the other directing big private
(19:42):
employers to mandate vaccines for their employees. The Nobel Committee
will award its highest honor, the Nobel Peace Prize, this Friday.
Three and twenty nine candidates are in the running for
this year's award. Here are just three. Greta Tunberg for
her contributions to climate activism, that w h O for
its role throughout the coronavirus pandemic, and the Black Lives
(20:04):
Matter movement for rallying against systemic racism. The winner will
take home a million dollars to use as they see fit.
Put on your wookie, cause play, and get ready to
have some fun. New York Comic Con begins today. The
conventions celebrating nerd culture will last until Sunday. More than
a hundred thousand Wizards, superheroes, Squid Game contestants, and regular
(20:27):
old celebrities are expected to descend upon the Jacob Job
At Center in New York City. For those not attending
in person, most sessions will be available to stream on
the organization's website. Have a great rest of the week, everyone,
I'll see you back on Monday. This is a Recount
Daily Pod, a podcast from the Recount and I Heart
(20:49):
Radio or thanks to Georgia Wells, co author of the
Wall Street Journals expose on Facebook and if you like
this episode, I hope you'll subscribe to the Recount Daily
Pod and dole of Us, a rating of the Apple
podcast app I'm Your Host. Rena Nine and Alexis ram
Dao and Corey Wara engineered and produced this podcast. Ariella
Martin also produced. Vandemani did the research. Pierre Benemey is
(21:12):
our senior producer and our executive producer. Isn't Your Baby
From the Recount on Marina nine in and you're listening
to the Recount Daily Pod Today's Thursday, October seven. I
don't know what Facebook can do to prepare that trust,
but something that whistleblower has hit on in her testimonious transparency,
and I think that transparency can be a pretty good
kind of anecdote to this kind of broken trust. That
was Georgia Wells, co author of The Wall Street Journal's
(00:30):
explosive expose on Facebook's refusal to change its business practices
in light of research that showed it was harming its
own users. We'll dig into that a little later on,
but first your morning headlines. We begin in Texas, where
late last night, a federal district court judge blocked enforcement
of a Texas abortion law that effectively banns a procedure
(00:52):
after six weeks. Siding with the Biden administration, Judge Robert
Pittman called the law unconstitution saying, quote, women have been
unlawfully prevented from exercising control over their lives in ways
that are protected under the Constitution. The judge ruled that
the law should be put on hold immediately while the
(01:13):
Texas statute makes its way through the lower court system
next to Washington, d C. Where the threat of a
federal default has been averted for now. Senate Democrats have
agreed to an offer from Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell
that would raise the debt ceiling just enough to fund
the government until December three. That gives Democrats almost two
(01:36):
months to come to an agreement on the reconciliation bill.
The planned vote is expected later today. Next up, we
turned to health, and for once, it's not COVID. You've
been reading and hearing about COVID nineteen vaccines for months now,
but how about one for malaria. Yesterday, the World Health
Organization endorsed a vaccine made by Glasgow Smith Klein, the
(02:00):
st ever developed against parasitic disease. Clinical trials in Ghana,
Kenya and Malawi have found the vaccine to be fifty
effective in preventing severe malaria in the first year. We
should know the resistance wanes with time. Malaria, a disease
spread by mosquitoes, kills about half a million people a year,
half for children under the age of five. For the
(02:21):
vaccine to reach all the people who need it, the
next step is for GAVI, the Global Vaccine Alliance to
decide if it's a worthwhile investment and buy it on
behalf of interested countries. That could take over a year,
and its approval isn't guaranteed. Still, the whose director general
tow did the vaccines promise saying it quote will change
(02:41):
the course of history. We end with Facebook, which has
been dominating headlines this week after a company whistleblower testified
before Congress about its questionable practices. Former product manager Francis
Howgan accused the company of knowingly prioritizing growth over the
welfare of its users. How It added that Facebook's own
(03:02):
internal research showed its platform particularly harmed teenage girls. In
a post, Suckerberg denied the claims. Facebook silence while being
fully aware that flaws in its platforms were hurting its
users was the subject of an expose by The Wall
Street Journal last week. We dig into the Facebook controversy
with one of the series co authors, Georgia Wells. That's
(03:23):
in today's Daily Deep Dive. Georgia, thanks so much for
joining us. Thanks for having me so Georgia. What are
the Facebook files that the Wall Street Journal put out?
The Facebook files are the Wall Street Journals attempts to
understand everything Facebook new over these past couple of years
and didn't disclose that often conflicted with how Facebook presented
(03:46):
these issues publicly, the ones that I worked on the
most closely, they were looking at how Instagram effects teen
girls and repeatedly Instagram researchers found that Instagram is harmful
for a sizeable percentage of these users, most notably teen girls.
And I can rattle off some of the stats if
you want that have just stuck when they throughout the reporting.
(04:07):
So what stood out to you? Of teen girls said
that when they felt bad about their bodies, Instagram made
them feel worse. And also among teens who reported suicidal thoughts,
British users and six percent of American users traced this
desire to kill themselves to Instagram. Wow, that is something,
(04:28):
It's really powerful. Like these are serious findings. What is
it about Instagram that's made it's so toxic for this
demographic specifically? So this thing called negative social comparison. Negative
social comparison happens when you're looking at content with the
mindset of how do I stack up next to these
(04:49):
people who I'm looking at rather than oh, I'm like
looking at this person to learn more about them, and
negative social comparison can happen in all aspects of your life.
It certainly predates Instagram, but the documents they discuss how
negative social comparison is worse on Instagram, and the reasons
are a it's addictive product mechanics and be this highlight
real culture. On Instagram, it's everybody posts the best moments
(05:14):
of their lives that but with the impression that this
is what my life is always like. And the researchers
discuss that it's really an Instagram specific problem and how
severe these effects can be because on Snapchat, much of
the content is buffered with these space filters, so you
can turn your face into a puppy or something like that,
and those face filters they divorce the content from reality.
(05:35):
It's you know, you're not actually a puppy, obviously. On TikTok,
a lot of the content is more performance based, and
so that separates this content from your real life. And
so there are these aspects on Instagram's two biggest competitors,
TikTok and Snapchat, that mitigate this negative social comparison. But
(05:55):
on Instagram, the focuses on the body and the lifestyle,
and the researchers called out as being like a perfect
storm for teens and particularly teen girls. So, Georgia, how
did you get a hold of these internal documents in
the first place? So I can't get into that too much,
but the world knows now. Francis Hogan was an employee
(06:15):
at Facebook and then kind of became concerned about how
the company was handling some of the issues related to this,
and left Facebook with thousands of pages of documents. And
Francis has now approached lawmakers and regulators about these concerns
and with these documents as evidence of what she was
seeing while she was at the company. And so the
(06:37):
Wall Street Journal kind of then came into these documents,
and now we've reported this series of stories based on them. Sure,
there are a lot of employees at Facebook over the
years that have wanted to come forward and some of
the things they've seen what made her take this huge staff.
Francis talks about her love of the company, that this
wasn't a kind of spurned employee who was described told
(07:00):
that she really believes in Facebook and believes the company
can do better, and has described that as a motivating
factor and coming forward. So I think that's a very
powerful moment as an employee who starts at a tech
company and it is really optimistic about solving some of
these issues, but then sees the company dissolved the team
she was working on and many of those employees left
(07:22):
the company or were reassigned to other teams at Facebook.
So I think that kind of shifted at some of
her confidence that the company was going to do right
by these issues. What do you think it is that
Francis wants by releasing these She said in testimony that
she wants lawmakers to take action, that she believes that
(07:43):
these issues can be solved, but that Facebook will not
solve them on its own, and she believes lawmakers need
to act step in and address these issues that she
believes are solvable. And she believes that this could show
consumers that this is not a real choice, that consumers
can and have a social network that allows them to
express themselves but also has less of these kind of
(08:05):
issues around misinformation and hate speech and bullying and toxic
content for teenagers. We've got to take a quick break,
but we'll be right back with Georgia Wells, reporter at
the Wall Street Journal on the Recount Daily Pod. Welcome
back to the Recount Daily Pod podcast from The Recount
and I Heart Radio. I'm here with Georgia Wells, reporter
(08:27):
at the Wall Street Journal, and we're talking about the
journal's Bombshell series Facebook Fiance. You mentioned you specifically reported
on the company's strategy with younger users. Why do you
think it is that Facebook so focused on reaching that
next generation. Facebook wants growth. Facebook wants to keep on
growing like it's been growing. And Facebook has signed up
(08:49):
nearly every adult and developed markets. So what's left there's
developing countries, and my colleagues have written just really compelling
articles about what happens when Facebook kind of enters developing
markets without kind of the people in place to moderate
the content. There's also young people getting their smartphones for
the first time. This is a moment in the child's life.
(09:11):
They get a smartphone and then they start to decide
which apps they want to put on it, and Facebook
in the documents, it is really clear Facebook really wants
these kids to put a Facebook product on their app
before they put a product from a competitor on their app,
because Facebook is concerned if these kids kind of become
addicted to a competitor's app that their next kind of
(09:33):
funnel of growth then might not be lined up to
use their products. So there were internal documents on plate dates.
What did Facebook see there? Facebook saw play dates as
quote a growth lever. Then explain a little bit about
play dates. Every child goes on play dates and they
need to coordinate this play date. So Facebook saw this
as an opportunity to inject one of their apps into
(09:57):
this logistical process that is repeated among every single child
and every single country around the world. So in the
documents we see Facebook discussing like, well, maybe we could
have an app that's used during the play date. And
then they talk to parents and there's a resounding method
from parents that they do not want screens open during
(10:17):
play dates. So then Facebook researchers are like, well, maybe
and Facebook app could be used to coordinate the play date.
So like, as the children are talking perhaps on a
Facebook product, they could loop in their parents to make
that plate date actually happen. But you can see Facebook
looking at these repeated activities that could kind of help
introduce other children to their apps. So when two children
(10:39):
are playing, one child if they bring them Facebook, that
introduces the other child to Facebook, then that other child
goes to meet another child, and then they've introduced that
child to Facebook. So is this this action that can
keep on repeating and repeating kind of including more and
more children. What exactly is Instagram Kids? I know Facebook
has put a pause on this for now, but what
(11:00):
was it supposed to be? Instagram Kids was supposed to
be Facebook's version of Instagram for children under the age
of thirteen. Currently, Instagram is for users thirteen and older.
We don't know exactly what Instagram for kids would look like,
but Facebook has acknowledged that it was working on this,
and so now everybody's trying to learn as much as
possible about, like how do you make an app for
(11:22):
children and how do you do this safely? How do
you think Facebook came up with this idea of Instagram Kids,
What were they hoping to achieve and why was it past?
In the documents, we can see Facebook concerned about their
growth and looking for ways to make sure that they
are like the app that children use when they get
their first smartphone. We also have heard from Facebook executives
(11:44):
concerned that children use regular Instagram, that regular Instagram children
will lie about their age sign up and then they're
suddenly on this app that wasn't built for them. And
so Facebook executives has framed this misuse of their platform
as one of the reasons Instagram for Kids exists. A
question I have about this logic is stay Facebook releases
(12:08):
Instagram Kids, I don't know what that does to dissuade
children from still logging onto Instagram using a false age
like regular Instagram, because anyone who's spent time around children
knows that for many kids, the coolest app is the
one for like the generation ahead of them. Knowing what
you've been able to read about the report and the
(12:30):
findings and looking into all of this, what surprised you
the most about what you found? I was really surprised
by the level of sophistication that Facebook brought to this
research that in the past, when I've asked Facebook executives
about these sorts of issues, the responses have been quite vague,
and the responses have also been couched and like, well,
(12:51):
this isn't Instagram specific, this is social media, this is
media in general. But the documents lay out lots of
evidence for why this is an Instagram specific problem at times,
and also a very nuanced understanding of what's happening and
so Facebook's research on Instagram. This represents one of the
clearest gaps that I've ever seen between Facebook's understanding of
(13:16):
itself internally and Facebook's public position when executives were speaking
to lawmakers or the media or in other public situations.
Are you in touch with any current employees. I'm just
curious what they're saying about all of this fallout, and
in contact with internal employees who are anxious, who are scared,
who want their company to address many of these issues,
(13:38):
and are kind of watching to see whether in all
the company's commitment sort of lines up with that. Facebook
has many, many researchers, people working on integrity issues who
are deeply committed to wanting to make the platform a
better place. The tension points have been whether higher up
leadership kind of takes these suggestions into account, and basically
(13:59):
the extent which the company is willing to sacrifice aspects
of growth in order to address some of the potential
harms their platform can cause as your organization. The Wall
Street Journal points out, despite the numerous media exposures, Facebook
hasn't really fixed the problem. Do you think this moment
is different for Facebook. So in the past, what we've
(14:20):
seen is Facebook executives tend to view problems as problems
of pr rather than problems of their product. Is crises
that need to be mitigated in terms of perceptions, but
not necessarily things that need to change with their platform.
What's interesting about this moment is these documents spell out,
in Facebook's own terms, their views of the problem. The
(14:43):
internally Facebook executives Facebook employees view this content view these
kind of apps experiences of their users is potentially problematic.
I just I don't know what they'll do with that information.
We're gonna posity a quick breaking be right back with
Georgia well reporter at the Wall Street Journal on the
Recount Daily Pod. Welcome back to the Recount Daily Pod,
(15:09):
a podcast from The Recount and I Heart Radio. We're
talking about the bombshell reporting from the Wall Street Journal
called the Facebook Files, and I'm joined by Georgia Wells,
reporter at the Wall Street Journal. At this point, what
are you watching? I'm watching to see what happens with
Instagram kids. So Facebook has said that they're putting this
on hold, that they're pausing it, But does that mean
(15:33):
just the wheels have ground? To a halt internally, or
does that mean they're pausing their public discussion of it,
or does that mean any employees assigned to those projects
will be assigned to other projects. These are the questions
I'm trying to figure out and trying to answer right now.
I'm also going to be watching what lawmakers do with
this motivation. They have to kind of address some of
(15:57):
these issues. I don't think the American Black I don't
think lawmakers or regulators have really kind of grappled with
this question about should there be apps and technology for children?
And it is, so, what are the measures that would
be in place to protect them? Because most of the
protection for children is from KAPPA, that Children's Online Privacy
(16:20):
Protection Act, and that prevents tech companies from collecting data
on children under the age of thirteen, But that doesn't
do a whole lot to protect the rights of children
under the age of thirteen who might be on technology
platforms anyways. So the question I think is, like, for
these children, if there's an app for them, what's the
best way to do this? MH. This reminds me of
(16:41):
the tobacco industry and the hearings on Capitol Hill and
how the tobacco industry was aware of the health issues
they were causing. Do you think this moment is somehow
going to force Facebook to change. It's an amazing moment
because the hearings I've been listening to there's very broad
bypartisan support. So Senators Richard Blumenthal and Marshall Blackburn, they
(17:06):
hardly agree on anything, yet they've come together to call
for investigations into Facebook and to try and learn more
about what Facebook knows. So that's as compelling an indication
as I've ever seen of kind of commitment from lawmakers
and by partism commitment from lawmakers to want to address
these issues. My sense, in doing this interview with you today,
(17:29):
you really believe that something has changed this go around
for Facebook. I really believe something has changed. I don't
know Washington well enough to know if the shift will
lead to action, but the conversations I've been hearing from
lawmakers are different conversations than before. They're much savvier this
time around. You were able to get these leaked documents.
(17:49):
We now know the identity of the woman, but from
somebody at Facebook you're speaking to employees. If you had
the opportunity to sit down with Mark Zuckerberg or Adam
was Arry or Cheryl Sandberg? What would you ask him?
When did they find out about this research? What was
the moment in time that they knew it, and why
(18:11):
didn't they share it with lawmakers who asked at the time.
Senators Bloomenthal and Blackburn wrote Facebook a letter over the summer,
and they asked for this research and Facebook said no.
Facebook said this research is proprietary and kept internally to
foster discussions. And so I want to know if Facebook
finds more evidence of harm that its users experience in
(18:36):
the future, will Facebook disclose this information. My inboxes filled
with emails from parents right now. There's this through line
in many of these emails around trust that many of
these parents trusted Facebook with their children and had expected
if Facebook were to find evidence a harm that Facebook
would have disclosed it. So there appears to be this
(18:58):
broken trust, at least this is what the parents are articulating.
So I don't know what Facebook can do to prepare
that trust. But something the whistleblower has hit on in
her testimonious transparency, and I think that transparency can be
a pretty good kind of anecdote to this kind of
broken trust. Georgia Wells, Wall Street Journal reporter. I want
(19:19):
to thank you very much for joining us to talk
about Facebook. Thank you, Rena. It's a really good conversation.
And now to the look ahead. Here's what else we're
watching today. President Biden arrives in Illinois to promote the
COVID nineteen vaccine. The trips a follow up to two
recently issued executive orders, one requiring all healthcare workers and
federal contractors to be vaccinated, the other directing big private
(19:42):
employers to mandate vaccines for their employees. The Nobel Committee
will award its highest honor, the Nobel Peace Prize, this Friday.
Three and twenty nine candidates are in the running for
this year's award. Here are just three. Greta Tunberg for
her contributions to climate activism, that w h O for
its role throughout the coronavirus pandemic, and the Black Lives
(20:04):
Matter movement for rallying against systemic racism. The winner will
take home a million dollars to use as they see fit.
Put on your wookie, cause play, and get ready to
have some fun. New York Comic Con begins today. The
conventions celebrating nerd culture will last until Sunday. More than
a hundred thousand Wizards, superheroes, Squid Game contestants, and regular
(20:27):
old celebrities are expected to descend upon the Jacob Job
At Center in New York City. For those not attending
in person, most sessions will be available to stream on
the organization's website. Have a great rest of the week, everyone,
I'll see you back on Monday. This is a Recount
Daily Pod, a podcast from the Recount and I Heart
(20:49):
Radio or thanks to Georgia Wells, co author of the
Wall Street Journals expose on Facebook and if you like
this episode, I hope you'll subscribe to the Recount Daily
Pod and dole of Us, a rating of the Apple
podcast app I'm Your Host. Rena Nine and Alexis ram
Dao and Corey Wara engineered and produced this podcast. Ariella
Martin also produced. Vandemani did the research. Pierre Benemey is
(21:12):
our senior producer and our executive producer. Isn't Your Baby
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