October 11, 2021 • 21 mins
Line 3, a once-decommissioned oil pipeline, was put into operation again earlier this month. The $4 billion dollar project, announced in 2014, met with fierce opposition from both environmentalists and Indigenous American tribes. Now, it's transporting over 600,000 barrels of oil per day from Alberta, Canada, to the American Midwest. Nick Martin, editor of the Indigenous Affairs desk at High Country News — and a member of the Sappony Tribe of North Carolina — joins us to dig into it.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
From the recount on Marina nine and you're listening to
the Recount daily Pod. Today's Monday, October eleven. Today, in
celebration of the first Federal Indigenous People's Day, we won't
have headlines or look ahead as usual. Instead, we're going
to focus on one story impacting Indigenous communities in Line three.
It's the Manumen, which is wild rice beds. They're very
(00:29):
concerned that potential spill of Line three could poison some
of the groundwater. That was Nick Martin, editor of the
Indigenous Affairs desk at High Country News. He's also a
member of the Saponi tribe of North Carolina. Nick was
talking about Line three, a once decommissioned oil pipeline, which
was put into operation again earlier this month. The four
(00:51):
billion dollar project, announced in two thousand fourteen, was met
with fierce opposition from both environmentalists and Indigenous American tribes.
The nearly a eleven hundred mile pipeline travels through three
states North Dakota, Minnesota, and Wisconsin. Now is transporting over
six hundred thousand barrels of oil per day from Alberta, Canada,
(01:11):
to the American Midwest. The indigenous communities whose lands are
being impacted want to change that. Beginning today and lasting
through Friday, Thousands will be gathering in Washington, d C.
In front of the White House to protest the pipeline.
They insist on making their voices heard. Today on Indigenous
People's Day, Nick Martin joins me to dig into it. Nick,
(01:35):
I want to thank you so much for joining us,
Thank you so much for having me. So we're airing
this episode with you on what most people have called
Columbus Day. But there's a movement across this country. Many
states have already renamed Columbus Day two Indigenous People's Day,
and just last week President Joe Biden issued a proclamation
recognizing the holiday as Indigenous People's Day in addition to
(01:57):
Columbus Day. Tell me how this movement begin and why
is this so important? Well, I think it just came
about kind of as more of a cultural reckoning with
the way that Columbus Day historically, I think has been
used as a way to uphold a certain version of
history beginning with you know, European colonizers coming here and
(02:18):
arriving on the shores, and in fact American history since
far beyond that, you know, I think it's just people
trying to be a little bit more thoughtful about the
way that we frame our histories and not trying to,
I guess, be any sort of complicit in any erasure
that for a long time has been there for Indigenous
people's I think it's fair to say that much of
our country really doesn't know the history of Indigenous peoples.
(02:43):
So when you look at the pipeline, what do you
think is the biggest problem from the standpoint of this community. Um,
there's two directions you can take. This one is you
can just focus on this specific pipeline, right, So with
line three, you have an addendum pipeline that's going to
be running between to tribal nations and their sovereign territories
on which are commonly known as reservations. And the reason
(03:07):
that Enbridge the line three operator, the reason that they
have constructed it between the two reservations is as a
way to kind of flout what is known as the
tribal consultation process. And what I would ask people to
do is think of this as you know yourself as
an American citizen, As an American citizen, if Canada or
(03:28):
Mexico decided, Hey, we're going to build something that potentially
could economically harm an entire American community's way of life,
or disrupt their cultural relationships with the land, or desecrate
the graves of you know, your grandfather and your ancestors.
Beyond that, obviously, the American federal government would want to
(03:52):
step in and have a say over what happens in
the case of Line three and so many other pipelines
and so many other structure projects. It's not just pipelines.
What we have here is an issue of consultation where
this is just kind of checking the box in terms
of both end Bridge as well as Army Courts of
Engineer and other federal agencies involved in the construction of
(04:15):
these projects. They they don't actually meaningfully want to go
to tribal nations and say here's our plans. Will you
accept those plans, and then if they say no, they're
not willing to take no as an answer. It is
a standard that was kind of officially brought on through
the administration of Bill Clinton, and it's something that's kind
(04:36):
of wagered up and down administration to administration. But consultation
is the key, I think kind of hinge point here.
So the problem is that travel nations don't have the
ability at the current moment to reject these projects proactively.
So everything you see is a reaction. When you look
at indigenous communities, what's really they're concerned from an environmental standpoint.
(04:58):
I think from an environmental standp it's pretty straightforward. In
this case, in Line three, it's the manumen, which is
wild rice beds. They're very concerned that a potential spill
of Line three could poison some of the groundwater. Yeah,
and that's both again going back to the economic and
cultural that manumen is a very important resource and relative
(05:19):
to the people of this region, and Mine three stands
as a threat to that. And as a result of that,
the wider Nation has filed a lawsuit that names wild
Rights as a plaintiff. Now that what this gets into
is there is kind of a recent history in terms
of tribal nations attempting to give rivers, waters and natural
(05:44):
relatives such as wild rice legal rights the same legal
rights as used and I would have as a human.
Now that is something that might seem to a bystander
or somebody who's not particularly engaged with environmental law, it
might seem a little bit far fetched, but it's truly
not because of the way that these lawsuits are written,
but also these are lawsuits that are oftentimes born from
(06:08):
people who not only study American federal Indian law, but
also are coming up through their own tribal court and
judge systems. What that allows for is a different understanding
in a different framework in terms of how we want
to proceed from one and be on how we want
to proceed with understanding our relationality two waters, foods to
(06:32):
animals like. It's all of these things that the American
legal system has been constructed in a way to extract
from and has not been instructed in a way to
protect or steward. And that is what this wild rights
lawsuit is about. More than nine people have been arrested
and ticketed at protests against the Line three pipeline project
(06:52):
since the construction began in December. You've got protest plan
in d C this week. They're expected to check thousands
of people. Nick and activists are demanding President Biden's got
to choose aside. In their words, they say, it's the
people or fossil fuel. Do you have a sense have
the Indigenous community has been able to get anyone in
this Biden administration to listen to their concerns. Well, let
(07:15):
me take a step back here and just say that
of any presidential administration in the history of the United States,
the Biden administration is by far set the highest standard
yet in terms of tribal consultation. Let me also say
that just because that is the case does not mean
that standard is particularly high as or as high as
(07:35):
it should be. Because we're just coming off four years
of a Trump administration that was not interested at all
in consulting with tribal nations on the nation to national
relationship as it should and they're reinstituting the Tribal Leaders
Annual Summit, which is a relationship established under the bottom
administration between the White House and tribal leaders and will
(07:55):
come in and actually have a full several days of
come station and just putting all of their issues, all
of the myriad issues on the table so the administration
can hear them. You have things like the O m
B that kind of helps form the White House's opinion
on the Congressional pleedgure and it and it's something where
tribal leaders have never been able to really consult with
them in the past, and they just had their first
(08:16):
ever consultation session in July. I mean across the board,
whether it's the Department of Agriculture, Department of the Interior.
I mean, there are a decent amount of Native leaders
within the Biden administration. Beyond deb Holland at the Interior,
they are making strides in terms of bringing tribal leaders in,
and not just bringing tribal leaders in, they brought former
(08:36):
elected Trumbull officials into high ranking appointed positions within all
of these kind of federal agencies. I mean even you know,
just last week, the Biden administration came out and said,
you know, we're going to listen to tribal leaders and
we're going to restore the protections around bears years uh,
and that was a major kind of rollback that the
(08:58):
Trump administration does. So my point is we're seeing multiple actions,
not just in terms of like pipeline cancelations in the
case of Keystone Excel, but we're seeing multiple actions where
the administration is making strides to change procedurally the way
that the White House engages with tribal nations, you know,
(09:18):
for the better. Now, whether that lasts beyond the Biden administration.
That's where you get into murky your waters. Make At
the same time, you've got President Joe Biden, who campaigned
on tackling climate change, and as you said, Biden indeed
revoked to keep permit for the Keystone XEL pipeline earlier
this year, but then he allowed the Line three project
to proceed. Why this is where it gets a little tricky, right,
(09:41):
and Bridge is basically negotiated deals both with like state
governments are on our side of the border, as well
as the federal government. But they've also negotiated with the
provincial government and the federal governments of Canada. It's a
very myriad thing where the Biden administration is having to
talk to tribal nations, having talked to Canada, having to
talk with its governors here. Like I understand, I understand
(10:03):
procedurally why it's taken longer, but you would hope that
they would have at least motion to or voice some
sort you know, sources say and you know, something like
that where you can at least get something out there
to generate the idea that the administration is not just
kind of giving you a hollow ear, but it's actually
meaningfully listening to what both the tribal nations as well
(10:24):
as the organizers on the front lines of the Line
three protest camps are kind of voicing and have been
voicing for a very, very long time. We've got to
take a quick break and we'll be right back with
Nick Martin, editor of the Indigenous Affairs Desk at High
Country News. You're listening to the Recount Daily Pod. Welcome
(10:45):
back to the Recount Daily Pod, a podcast from the
Recount and I Heart Radio. I'm joined by Nick Martin,
editor of the Indigenous Affairs Desk at High Country News,
and we're talking about the Indigenous community and the construction
of pipe blinds. You mentioned Interiors Secretary Dev Holland. She
is the first Indigenous American to be a Cabinet secretary,
(11:07):
having Indigenous communities been able to meet with her, and
how is having someone like her in the administration impacted
some of their issues. I mean it is gone both ways.
I mean Dev Holland has been out and about. I
mean she's been traveling all over you know, obviously taking
the appropriate COVID protocols, but I mean she is she
has been meeting with tribal leaders in the southwest and
(11:28):
the northwest, in the northeast, She's made several kind of
extended trips to go out and actively listen to what
tribal leaders are asking for, which I think is when
she went down she met with you know, Navajo and
Pueblo leaders and Hopey leaders and all these folks who
have kind of come together around Bears years. That was
just a couple of months ago, and now we actually
have a decision out officially changing it. We're actually seeing
(11:53):
the effects of having her in office and the work
that her office is doing in terms of bringing tribal
leaders in. And the Interior has always been, of all
the departments, I think, a little bit ahead of the rest,
just because that is where the Bureau of Indian Affairs
is House one. You get a lot more kind of
Native people that come off and yeah, I'm gonna work
(12:15):
in the Interior and change the system from the inside.
And as a result of that, and also just as
a result of that constant communication, you know, employees at
the officials at the Interior are just a little bit
more well versed on subjects of tribal sovereagety. That's not
to say the Interior has been perfect that it is,
you know, worked with them all the time the way
they want. It's just to say that line of communication
(12:36):
is pretty solid right now. Yeah, I mean it must
help to have somebody who can really understand the community
and explain things. Nuances make such a difference. So the
Department of Interior actually also regulates mineral rights, including in
many cases the access to oil. How has the Department
of Interior managed minimal rights on Indigenous lands historically, Yeah,
it's been pretty contentious. The federal government historically has respected
(13:01):
the sovereignty of tribal lands, like the ability of tribal
governments to govern and have jurisdiction over their lands and waters.
They have respected that all the way up to the
line of realizing that the land that they agreed to
set aside for a reservation has you know, a an
exorbitant amount of minerals or oil on it. And at
(13:24):
that point that is when the federal government has frequently
come in and said, no, actually, we want this instead
for ourselves. So it's something where tribal nations are constantly
having to defend their mineral rights. But it's also we're
moving into an age right where where tribal governments are starting,
not all of them. I mean they're nearly six hundred
tribal governments, so you can't speak with a broad brush
(13:46):
about any of it. But but there are a good
number of tribal nations that have in the last half
century of this age of self determination, they have been
able to kind of build up their coffers, build up
themselves strong enough to where they are now seeing the
similar economic benefits to drilling or mining these resources themselves.
Think about the line three Wild Rice lawsuit. That is
(14:09):
a tribal nations standing up for its natural relative. There
are other tribal nations though, that feel quite comfortable saying,
you know, we're gonna put in oil wells on our lands,
We're gonna put in minds on our lands, coal factories,
whatever it is, because they see it as an economic,
like foundational kind of tool to use towards a long
term sense of self determination and self reliance. So you
(14:30):
can move away from having to worry about whether Congress
funds that highs properly or any thing like that. So
it's really thorny, and I know I've kind of sidetracked
this initial question of how there's a federal government kind
of interact with mineral rights on on travel lands. But
as I think travel nations become more and more independent
(14:50):
and acting on their own accord, we're going to have
to start facing these conversations more openly ourselves. We're gonna
have to start asking ourselves, as travel citizens of our
own governments, is this something we want to be doing
on our lands? And then we can also kind of
worry about, you know, what does the Interior want to do?
Do they want to lease all our lands? Do they
(15:10):
do they want to come in and try and you know,
kind of scrape some revenue off of this. You know,
if you're a tribal citizen, you're a citizen of sovereign nation,
and then you're an American citizen. Regarding oil, there have
been two big news developments so far this month. One
was a giant leak from an oil pipeline off the
coast of southern California, spilling at least a hundred and
twenty six thousand gallons of heavy crude oil in the Pacific.
(15:33):
And then there's Line three, which is operational again. Part
of Line three runs to Minnesota, and the state's Court
of Appeals ruled this past summer that concerns over potential
oil spills were sufficiently addressed. Do you think they weren't.
I think state by state you're gonna have varying degrees
of how high their standards are in terms of checking
(15:54):
off whether the environmental reviews, environmental permitting process is really
actually up to snow. Like you can point to the
southern California one. You can point to the Colonial pipeline
spill in North Carolina, my home state, where it dumped
over a million gallons into a wildlife refuge north of Charlotte.
I was just in northern Michigan at an event for
(16:18):
tribal leaders to come out and speak on why it
is that they're opposing the Line five pipeline, also operated
by in Bridge, same operators to Line three and and
one tribal leader stood up and just said, like, it's
not a matter of if, but when maybe it doesn't
spill in the next decade and it spills thirty years
from now. These pipelines are they're not built to last
(16:38):
long term. There there projects that are built and for
short term revenue game, not just pipeline companies, but when
it comes to gas and oil and pipeline infrastructure, a
lot of the projects that were really rushed through under
the Trump administration, and just pointed out, the Biden administration
has continued the rate of permit approval at the same
(17:00):
kind of slot as what the Trump administration was doing
for gas and oil. What we're effectively saying is that
this kind of short term payoff of you know, we
will continue to rely on fossil fuels for our energy needs.
It's like, it is convenient for me as as a
consumer to not have to make major life changes, but
my kids are going to have to deal with the
(17:22):
ramifications of us, you know, not taking direct and immediate
action on that. These pipeline review processes are designed to
pass from the beginning, like as soon as the pipeline
project is presented, or or a mining project or in
any of these things, Like you have to understand that
a lot of these projects are the result of I
(17:43):
don't want to say backroom deals because that sounds shady,
but I do think that it's something where a lot
of these projects are the result of kind of preconceived agreements.
And that is where I come to the issue of
travel consultation, right because like so frequently, it's the state,
or it's the FEDS and they're working with a you know,
a particular developer, and they kind of come together and say, oh,
(18:03):
we love to this project. Sure it seems like it
will generate good tax revenue for us, it will generate
solid operating revenue for you. And then they go to
the tribal nations right like after they've kind of already
thought up and designed the plans. And so that is
the problem when it comes to the state um kind
of environmental reviews. It recreates conflict where there should not
be conflict. Like if if tribal nations were able to
(18:26):
engage in these consultation sessions while these ideas and projects
were being conceived of not after, but while they were
being conceived though, then we would actually be able to
enter into something of an environmental review process that would
be meaningful, that would actually be consultation. And that's you know,
I'm not trying to do. The people working on these
(18:46):
cases are oftentimes long time state employees. They are people
who are invested in trying to do the best of
their abilities. But it's a structural problem. It's a systemic
problem of the way that we view in the short
term the benefits without thinking about the long term cost.
We're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back
with Nick Martin, editor of the Indigenous Affairs Desk at
(19:07):
High Country News. You're listening to the Recount Daily Pod.
Welcome back to the Recount Daily Pod, a podcast from
The Recount and I Heart Radio joined by Nick Martin.
You know, it's remarkable you are the head of the
Indigenous Affairs desk for High Country News. There's really not
(19:30):
a lot of coverage on Indigenous communities. What do you
think it will take to change that? Well, I think
you know, High Country News historically has always been very
ahead of the pack when it comes to coverage American
public lands. It's just been a great institution for a
very long time about the way that And yeah, I
feel great. This is the first place I've worked where
(19:52):
I've had I'm not the only Native person in the newsroom.
I have a team of three other using Native journalists
alongside me, and it's an empowering feeling. And I hope
that journalism and media at large, following, not just High
Country News, is footsteps with the footsteps of Indian Country
Today and so many other news organizations. We just we
(20:15):
haven't been misrepresented, because if we've been underrepresented, and I
think that one thing that has to happen moving forward
is that as indigenous journalists, as indigenous people's like, we
can't sit and be comfortable being the only Indigenous person
in the newsroom. We have to push our institutions to
be better. And in the case of High Country News,
(20:37):
we're you know, we're always we're still pushing. But I
think you know, we've seen what that result is, and
it's the Indigenous Affairs stepps. So I hope that other
places with significant resources are able to kind of start
thinking about doing something similar. Nick Martin, editor of the
Indigenous Affairs Desks at High Country News, thank you for
joining us. Thanks so much for having me. This is
(21:00):
the Recount Daily Pod, a podcast from the Recount and
I Heart Radio are thanks to Nick Martin, editor of
the Indigenous Affairs Desk at High Country News, for joining
us today. And if you like this episode, I hope
you'll subscribe to The Recount Daily Pod and leave us
a rating on the Apple podcast app. Um Your host
Rena Nina
From the recount on Marina nine and you're listening to
the Recount daily Pod. Today's Monday, October eleven. Today, in
celebration of the first Federal Indigenous People's Day, we won't
have headlines or look ahead as usual. Instead, we're going
to focus on one story impacting Indigenous communities in Line three.
It's the Manumen, which is wild rice beds. They're very
(00:29):
concerned that potential spill of Line three could poison some
of the groundwater. That was Nick Martin, editor of the
Indigenous Affairs desk at High Country News. He's also a
member of the Saponi tribe of North Carolina. Nick was
talking about Line three, a once decommissioned oil pipeline, which
was put into operation again earlier this month. The four
(00:51):
billion dollar project, announced in two thousand fourteen, was met
with fierce opposition from both environmentalists and Indigenous American tribes.
The nearly a eleven hundred mile pipeline travels through three
states North Dakota, Minnesota, and Wisconsin. Now is transporting over
six hundred thousand barrels of oil per day from Alberta, Canada,
(01:11):
to the American Midwest. The indigenous communities whose lands are
being impacted want to change that. Beginning today and lasting
through Friday, Thousands will be gathering in Washington, d C.
In front of the White House to protest the pipeline.
They insist on making their voices heard. Today on Indigenous
People's Day, Nick Martin joins me to dig into it. Nick,
(01:35):
I want to thank you so much for joining us,
Thank you so much for having me. So we're airing
this episode with you on what most people have called
Columbus Day. But there's a movement across this country. Many
states have already renamed Columbus Day two Indigenous People's Day,
and just last week President Joe Biden issued a proclamation
recognizing the holiday as Indigenous People's Day in addition to
(01:57):
Columbus Day. Tell me how this movement begin and why
is this so important? Well, I think it just came
about kind of as more of a cultural reckoning with
the way that Columbus Day historically, I think has been
used as a way to uphold a certain version of
history beginning with you know, European colonizers coming here and
(02:18):
arriving on the shores, and in fact American history since
far beyond that, you know, I think it's just people
trying to be a little bit more thoughtful about the
way that we frame our histories and not trying to,
I guess, be any sort of complicit in any erasure
that for a long time has been there for Indigenous
people's I think it's fair to say that much of
our country really doesn't know the history of Indigenous peoples.
(02:43):
So when you look at the pipeline, what do you
think is the biggest problem from the standpoint of this community. Um,
there's two directions you can take. This one is you
can just focus on this specific pipeline, right, So with
line three, you have an addendum pipeline that's going to
be running between to tribal nations and their sovereign territories
on which are commonly known as reservations. And the reason
(03:07):
that Enbridge the line three operator, the reason that they
have constructed it between the two reservations is as a
way to kind of flout what is known as the
tribal consultation process. And what I would ask people to
do is think of this as you know yourself as
an American citizen, As an American citizen, if Canada or
(03:28):
Mexico decided, Hey, we're going to build something that potentially
could economically harm an entire American community's way of life,
or disrupt their cultural relationships with the land, or desecrate
the graves of you know, your grandfather and your ancestors.
Beyond that, obviously, the American federal government would want to
(03:52):
step in and have a say over what happens in
the case of Line three and so many other pipelines
and so many other structure projects. It's not just pipelines.
What we have here is an issue of consultation where
this is just kind of checking the box in terms
of both end Bridge as well as Army Courts of
Engineer and other federal agencies involved in the construction of
(04:15):
these projects. They they don't actually meaningfully want to go
to tribal nations and say here's our plans. Will you
accept those plans, and then if they say no, they're
not willing to take no as an answer. It is
a standard that was kind of officially brought on through
the administration of Bill Clinton, and it's something that's kind
(04:36):
of wagered up and down administration to administration. But consultation
is the key, I think kind of hinge point here.
So the problem is that travel nations don't have the
ability at the current moment to reject these projects proactively.
So everything you see is a reaction. When you look
at indigenous communities, what's really they're concerned from an environmental standpoint.
(04:58):
I think from an environmental standp it's pretty straightforward. In
this case, in Line three, it's the manumen, which is
wild rice beds. They're very concerned that a potential spill
of Line three could poison some of the groundwater. Yeah,
and that's both again going back to the economic and
cultural that manumen is a very important resource and relative
(05:19):
to the people of this region, and Mine three stands
as a threat to that. And as a result of that,
the wider Nation has filed a lawsuit that names wild
Rights as a plaintiff. Now that what this gets into
is there is kind of a recent history in terms
of tribal nations attempting to give rivers, waters and natural
(05:44):
relatives such as wild rice legal rights the same legal
rights as used and I would have as a human.
Now that is something that might seem to a bystander
or somebody who's not particularly engaged with environmental law, it
might seem a little bit far fetched, but it's truly
not because of the way that these lawsuits are written,
but also these are lawsuits that are oftentimes born from
(06:08):
people who not only study American federal Indian law, but
also are coming up through their own tribal court and
judge systems. What that allows for is a different understanding
in a different framework in terms of how we want
to proceed from one and be on how we want
to proceed with understanding our relationality two waters, foods to
(06:32):
animals like. It's all of these things that the American
legal system has been constructed in a way to extract
from and has not been instructed in a way to
protect or steward. And that is what this wild rights
lawsuit is about. More than nine people have been arrested
and ticketed at protests against the Line three pipeline project
(06:52):
since the construction began in December. You've got protest plan
in d C this week. They're expected to check thousands
of people. Nick and activists are demanding President Biden's got
to choose aside. In their words, they say, it's the
people or fossil fuel. Do you have a sense have
the Indigenous community has been able to get anyone in
this Biden administration to listen to their concerns. Well, let
(07:15):
me take a step back here and just say that
of any presidential administration in the history of the United States,
the Biden administration is by far set the highest standard
yet in terms of tribal consultation. Let me also say
that just because that is the case does not mean
that standard is particularly high as or as high as
(07:35):
it should be. Because we're just coming off four years
of a Trump administration that was not interested at all
in consulting with tribal nations on the nation to national
relationship as it should and they're reinstituting the Tribal Leaders
Annual Summit, which is a relationship established under the bottom
administration between the White House and tribal leaders and will
(07:55):
come in and actually have a full several days of
come station and just putting all of their issues, all
of the myriad issues on the table so the administration
can hear them. You have things like the O m
B that kind of helps form the White House's opinion
on the Congressional pleedgure and it and it's something where
tribal leaders have never been able to really consult with
them in the past, and they just had their first
(08:16):
ever consultation session in July. I mean across the board,
whether it's the Department of Agriculture, Department of the Interior.
I mean, there are a decent amount of Native leaders
within the Biden administration. Beyond deb Holland at the Interior,
they are making strides in terms of bringing tribal leaders in,
and not just bringing tribal leaders in, they brought former
(08:36):
elected Trumbull officials into high ranking appointed positions within all
of these kind of federal agencies. I mean even you know,
just last week, the Biden administration came out and said,
you know, we're going to listen to tribal leaders and
we're going to restore the protections around bears years uh,
and that was a major kind of rollback that the
(08:58):
Trump administration does. So my point is we're seeing multiple actions,
not just in terms of like pipeline cancelations in the
case of Keystone Excel, but we're seeing multiple actions where
the administration is making strides to change procedurally the way
that the White House engages with tribal nations, you know,
(09:18):
for the better. Now, whether that lasts beyond the Biden administration.
That's where you get into murky your waters. Make At
the same time, you've got President Joe Biden, who campaigned
on tackling climate change, and as you said, Biden indeed
revoked to keep permit for the Keystone XEL pipeline earlier
this year, but then he allowed the Line three project
to proceed. Why this is where it gets a little tricky, right,
(09:41):
and Bridge is basically negotiated deals both with like state
governments are on our side of the border, as well
as the federal government. But they've also negotiated with the
provincial government and the federal governments of Canada. It's a
very myriad thing where the Biden administration is having to
talk to tribal nations, having talked to Canada, having to
talk with its governors here. Like I understand, I understand
(10:03):
procedurally why it's taken longer, but you would hope that
they would have at least motion to or voice some
sort you know, sources say and you know, something like
that where you can at least get something out there
to generate the idea that the administration is not just
kind of giving you a hollow ear, but it's actually
meaningfully listening to what both the tribal nations as well
(10:24):
as the organizers on the front lines of the Line
three protest camps are kind of voicing and have been
voicing for a very, very long time. We've got to
take a quick break and we'll be right back with
Nick Martin, editor of the Indigenous Affairs Desk at High
Country News. You're listening to the Recount Daily Pod. Welcome
(10:45):
back to the Recount Daily Pod, a podcast from the
Recount and I Heart Radio. I'm joined by Nick Martin,
editor of the Indigenous Affairs Desk at High Country News,
and we're talking about the Indigenous community and the construction
of pipe blinds. You mentioned Interiors Secretary Dev Holland. She
is the first Indigenous American to be a Cabinet secretary,
(11:07):
having Indigenous communities been able to meet with her, and
how is having someone like her in the administration impacted
some of their issues. I mean it is gone both ways.
I mean Dev Holland has been out and about. I
mean she's been traveling all over you know, obviously taking
the appropriate COVID protocols, but I mean she is she
has been meeting with tribal leaders in the southwest and
(11:28):
the northwest, in the northeast, She's made several kind of
extended trips to go out and actively listen to what
tribal leaders are asking for, which I think is when
she went down she met with you know, Navajo and
Pueblo leaders and Hopey leaders and all these folks who
have kind of come together around Bears years. That was
just a couple of months ago, and now we actually
have a decision out officially changing it. We're actually seeing
(11:53):
the effects of having her in office and the work
that her office is doing in terms of bringing tribal
leaders in. And the Interior has always been, of all
the departments, I think, a little bit ahead of the rest,
just because that is where the Bureau of Indian Affairs
is House one. You get a lot more kind of
Native people that come off and yeah, I'm gonna work
(12:15):
in the Interior and change the system from the inside.
And as a result of that, and also just as
a result of that constant communication, you know, employees at
the officials at the Interior are just a little bit
more well versed on subjects of tribal sovereagety. That's not
to say the Interior has been perfect that it is,
you know, worked with them all the time the way
they want. It's just to say that line of communication
(12:36):
is pretty solid right now. Yeah, I mean it must
help to have somebody who can really understand the community
and explain things. Nuances make such a difference. So the
Department of Interior actually also regulates mineral rights, including in
many cases the access to oil. How has the Department
of Interior managed minimal rights on Indigenous lands historically, Yeah,
it's been pretty contentious. The federal government historically has respected
(13:01):
the sovereignty of tribal lands, like the ability of tribal
governments to govern and have jurisdiction over their lands and waters.
They have respected that all the way up to the
line of realizing that the land that they agreed to
set aside for a reservation has you know, a an
exorbitant amount of minerals or oil on it. And at
(13:24):
that point that is when the federal government has frequently
come in and said, no, actually, we want this instead
for ourselves. So it's something where tribal nations are constantly
having to defend their mineral rights. But it's also we're
moving into an age right where where tribal governments are starting,
not all of them. I mean they're nearly six hundred
tribal governments, so you can't speak with a broad brush
(13:46):
about any of it. But but there are a good
number of tribal nations that have in the last half
century of this age of self determination, they have been
able to kind of build up their coffers, build up
themselves strong enough to where they are now seeing the
similar economic benefits to drilling or mining these resources themselves.
Think about the line three Wild Rice lawsuit. That is
(14:09):
a tribal nations standing up for its natural relative. There
are other tribal nations though, that feel quite comfortable saying,
you know, we're gonna put in oil wells on our lands,
We're gonna put in minds on our lands, coal factories,
whatever it is, because they see it as an economic,
like foundational kind of tool to use towards a long
term sense of self determination and self reliance. So you
(14:30):
can move away from having to worry about whether Congress
funds that highs properly or any thing like that. So
it's really thorny, and I know I've kind of sidetracked
this initial question of how there's a federal government kind
of interact with mineral rights on on travel lands. But
as I think travel nations become more and more independent
(14:50):
and acting on their own accord, we're going to have
to start facing these conversations more openly ourselves. We're gonna
have to start asking ourselves, as travel citizens of our
own governments, is this something we want to be doing
on our lands? And then we can also kind of
worry about, you know, what does the Interior want to do?
Do they want to lease all our lands? Do they
(15:10):
do they want to come in and try and you know,
kind of scrape some revenue off of this. You know,
if you're a tribal citizen, you're a citizen of sovereign nation,
and then you're an American citizen. Regarding oil, there have
been two big news developments so far this month. One
was a giant leak from an oil pipeline off the
coast of southern California, spilling at least a hundred and
twenty six thousand gallons of heavy crude oil in the Pacific.
(15:33):
And then there's Line three, which is operational again. Part
of Line three runs to Minnesota, and the state's Court
of Appeals ruled this past summer that concerns over potential
oil spills were sufficiently addressed. Do you think they weren't.
I think state by state you're gonna have varying degrees
of how high their standards are in terms of checking
(15:54):
off whether the environmental reviews, environmental permitting process is really
actually up to snow. Like you can point to the
southern California one. You can point to the Colonial pipeline
spill in North Carolina, my home state, where it dumped
over a million gallons into a wildlife refuge north of Charlotte.
I was just in northern Michigan at an event for
(16:18):
tribal leaders to come out and speak on why it
is that they're opposing the Line five pipeline, also operated
by in Bridge, same operators to Line three and and
one tribal leader stood up and just said, like, it's
not a matter of if, but when maybe it doesn't
spill in the next decade and it spills thirty years
from now. These pipelines are they're not built to last
(16:38):
long term. There there projects that are built and for
short term revenue game, not just pipeline companies, but when
it comes to gas and oil and pipeline infrastructure, a
lot of the projects that were really rushed through under
the Trump administration, and just pointed out, the Biden administration
has continued the rate of permit approval at the same
(17:00):
kind of slot as what the Trump administration was doing
for gas and oil. What we're effectively saying is that
this kind of short term payoff of you know, we
will continue to rely on fossil fuels for our energy needs.
It's like, it is convenient for me as as a
consumer to not have to make major life changes, but
my kids are going to have to deal with the
(17:22):
ramifications of us, you know, not taking direct and immediate
action on that. These pipeline review processes are designed to
pass from the beginning, like as soon as the pipeline
project is presented, or or a mining project or in
any of these things, Like you have to understand that
a lot of these projects are the result of I
(17:43):
don't want to say backroom deals because that sounds shady,
but I do think that it's something where a lot
of these projects are the result of kind of preconceived agreements.
And that is where I come to the issue of
travel consultation, right because like so frequently, it's the state,
or it's the FEDS and they're working with a you know,
a particular developer, and they kind of come together and say, oh,
(18:03):
we love to this project. Sure it seems like it
will generate good tax revenue for us, it will generate
solid operating revenue for you. And then they go to
the tribal nations right like after they've kind of already
thought up and designed the plans. And so that is
the problem when it comes to the state um kind
of environmental reviews. It recreates conflict where there should not
be conflict. Like if if tribal nations were able to
(18:26):
engage in these consultation sessions while these ideas and projects
were being conceived of not after, but while they were
being conceived though, then we would actually be able to
enter into something of an environmental review process that would
be meaningful, that would actually be consultation. And that's you know,
I'm not trying to do. The people working on these
(18:46):
cases are oftentimes long time state employees. They are people
who are invested in trying to do the best of
their abilities. But it's a structural problem. It's a systemic
problem of the way that we view in the short
term the benefits without thinking about the long term cost.
We're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back
with Nick Martin, editor of the Indigenous Affairs Desk at
(19:07):
High Country News. You're listening to the Recount Daily Pod.
Welcome back to the Recount Daily Pod, a podcast from
The Recount and I Heart Radio joined by Nick Martin.
You know, it's remarkable you are the head of the
Indigenous Affairs desk for High Country News. There's really not
(19:30):
a lot of coverage on Indigenous communities. What do you
think it will take to change that? Well, I think
you know, High Country News historically has always been very
ahead of the pack when it comes to coverage American
public lands. It's just been a great institution for a
very long time about the way that And yeah, I
feel great. This is the first place I've worked where
(19:52):
I've had I'm not the only Native person in the newsroom.
I have a team of three other using Native journalists
alongside me, and it's an empowering feeling. And I hope
that journalism and media at large, following, not just High
Country News, is footsteps with the footsteps of Indian Country
Today and so many other news organizations. We just we
(20:15):
haven't been misrepresented, because if we've been underrepresented, and I
think that one thing that has to happen moving forward
is that as indigenous journalists, as indigenous people's like, we
can't sit and be comfortable being the only Indigenous person
in the newsroom. We have to push our institutions to
be better. And in the case of High Country News,
(20:37):
we're you know, we're always we're still pushing. But I
think you know, we've seen what that result is, and
it's the Indigenous Affairs stepps. So I hope that other
places with significant resources are able to kind of start
thinking about doing something similar. Nick Martin, editor of the
Indigenous Affairs Desks at High Country News, thank you for
joining us. Thanks so much for having me. This is
(21:00):
the Recount Daily Pod, a podcast from the Recount and
I Heart Radio are thanks to Nick Martin, editor of
the Indigenous Affairs Desk at High Country News, for joining
us today. And if you like this episode, I hope
you'll subscribe to The Recount Daily Pod and leave us
a rating on the Apple podcast app. Um Your host
Rena Nina
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