September 20, 2023 • 39 mins
Deven Morgan is the Director of Youth Baseball for Driveline Baseball, one of the top data-driven baseball player development organizations. The host of the Driveline Academy Youth Baseball podcast, Deven joins Nick to discuss the importance of understanding kids’ stages of cognitive development, his mission to develop skills that scale, and why he believes success leaves clues.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
I love baseball, and I love it deeply because of
how it's informed my perspective on all of my life,
and I just want more kids to get that benefit
from it, and I think the way that we can
maximize that is having them played for as long as possible,
which means we have to address skill, but you also
have to address the.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Engagement part of things, because if.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
They hate it, or if they aren't engaged because they
don't realize they're getting better, they're going to quit.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
This is the Reform Sports Project, a podcast about restoring
healthy balance and perspective in all areas of sports through
education and advocacy. This is Nick Bonacor from the Reform
Sports Podcast. Today, I'm speaking with Devin Morgan, director of
Youth Baseball for drive Line, one of the top data
driven baseball player development organizations, the host of the drive
(00:47):
Line Academy Youth Baseball podcast. Devin and I discuss the
importance of understanding kids stages of cognitive development, his mission
to develop skills at scale, and why he believes success
leaves clues. He's one of the great guys out there
in youth sports and if for all the right reasons,
I'm pumped to have them Director of Youth Baseball from
(01:07):
drive Line, my man, Devin Morgan, d thanks for hopping
on man.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
That's always a pleasure. Man. It's good to connect with
you again our issue. Dude.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
It's been a while, I know, I know, and you
got so much going on. I mean, in the last
you know year, two years, I think you guys over
a drive Line, you rolled out the teams.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
For those of you out.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
There who have been maybe on Mars or somewhere over
the last you know, ten years in baseball, drive Line
is at the forefront of technology. They're at the forefront
of scrutiny. They're at the forefront of of every They
got lovers, they got haters, all that stuff. Like any
prosperous and growing entity, you're gonna have both sides. But
(01:45):
my man, Devin, what did you guys recently? Do you
rolled out the new the travel team?
Speaker 4 (01:50):
What's going on?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, so we started doing teams.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Man, this makes me feel old, But I think when
we first talked, it was kind of like an idea
of what we were gonna do. And we are now
moving into season four of our travel Although you know,
travel Teams probably isn't accurate because you know, we you know,
at drive Line, we love to kind of book conventional wisdom.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
And we don't travel that much.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I actually just got back last night from kind of
our only travel tournament that we do, and we're in
Washington with our teams and we just travel.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Down to Oregon.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
How far is that?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Uh, yeah, it's a three three and a half hour
drive if you if you catch the traffic right, So
you know, we can give it a chance to kind
of do the the travel stuff that the kids want
to do, where they can kind of hang out in
the pool and and goof off.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
But we're also trying to.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Do that in a way, we're minimizing some of the
economic impact on our families, because the moment that you
you know, you take a family of four and you
throw them on an airplane and you got to get
a hotel.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
And you got to rent a car, and you got
to eat out, it.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Gets really expensive, really fast. And you know, inso much
as we have to do that, we're trying to make
this thing accessible to more people.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
And one of the easy ways you can do.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
That is just kind of mitigate some of the you know,
some of the costs that you actually can control and
the reality is, when you're talking about kids, you know,
ten to eighteen, unless we're really dominating like the entire
local market, you've probably got good enough competition in your
local area, so you don't need to spend three thousand
dollars a weekend flying across the country, you know, just
(03:28):
to just to play games.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
In my you know, humble opinion. So, yeah, we were
running into we're starting. We were just finishing season.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Three of our teams will start our next off season
in October. We have two hundred issue kids in the
program right now, and we also have teams that are
spinning up in Arizona where we have our Scott's Steel location.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
We got four teams down there.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
It's about a little under sixty kids and they'll be
starting up soon.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
So we're going, we're growing.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
So what I love for people to know I I
know this because you and I have talked a lot.
I follow you, and we're very like minded in many ways,
particularly when it comes to the youth side.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
I'd like to say, and you kind of touched.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
On a little bit there just by describing the only
three and a half hour drive. I mean, for God's sakes,
I'm in the state of North Carolina. If you want
to go halfway across the state, you got to go
three and a half hours. People might hear that and go,
oh my god, that's not even traveling.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
You know.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
Some people do that every weekend, depending on where you're at.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
So what is it about your ideology and approach to
youth baseball? And now, like you mentioned quote unquote travel
that you're doing with drive Line, but like versus some
of the other organizations, are the trends that you see
out there where it is halfway across the country, are
three thousand dollars to go play in these tournaments? Why
is it that it's important to you to kind of
(04:45):
buck the trend a little bit?
Speaker 1 (04:47):
It's important to me. So I'll give you the technical
answer first. The guys over at the Aspen Institute had
this project Cleay Initiative, and they've been collecting data on
youth sport and they've been publishing it since I think
around twenty eighteen.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
And in that amount of time, what they've shown.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Is that baseball loses a disproportionate number of participants. So
we're talking about kids leaving our sport than any other sport,
any other major or minor sport in the United States,
Baseball loses somewhere around one point two million kids every
single year in that transition from like the six to
twelve group to the thirteen to eighteen group. The thing
(05:28):
that happens around the same time is you have a
massive increase in playspace. You go from like the forty
six foot field to a full on sixty ninety. That
amount of increase is somewhere north of like two hundred
and fifty to three hundred percent, depending on the dimensions
of the fields. And thankfully baseball is one of these
weird sports where the playspase. You know, there's a lot
of bizarre baseball fields out there, which is hilarious.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
But point being.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
That the change in playspase necessitates a different type of skill.
Right in the fact that that change in play space
correlates directly with this time that we have this massive
participant loss, to me has sent a very simple signal
that we're missing opportunities to develop the long term skill
(06:12):
in a period of time when it kind of doesn't
mean that much, right. You know, from T ball to
like twelve thirteen baseball, a lot of times you could
have a bad game and you can take your kid
out for ice cream and they're gonna be fine.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
In an addition, it's not like they have scouts that
are watching these games.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
It's not that pro coaches are watching these games. The
people that are watching them are parents, right.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
It's people like you and I who have a direct
biological relationship with the athletes on the field and are
compelled sometimes inappropriately to express our emotions about the result
of those games in consideration. So the first thing, you know,
for our ideology of what we're trying to do with
(06:57):
dry Line Academy is just kind.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Of recognized that thing.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Baseball is not a game where you can develop kind
of a skill set at a very young age and
that's going.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
To serve you the whole time.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
You have to be aware of how the environment is
going to necessitate different types of skills. And then beyond that,
you know, kind of the non technical description is I've
been around this for long enough, you know this is
somewhere around twelve or thirteen years that I am troubled
by kind of the large, you know, the large kind
of path that our game is going. We are putting
(07:32):
kids in a position where their performance is treated the
same way that like a lot of professional teams performance.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Are treated right. Like I was at a tournament.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
One time and in one of our teams was playing,
and I went into the bathroom and there's a kid
on the other team that was trying to exit the bathroom.
And before that kid could get out of the bathroom,
they started getting lit up by a parent on that
team about why the team wasn't hitting today. And like
(08:06):
if kids can't even get that type of break from
you know, adults kind of reinforcing these imaginary consequences to
their competition results, then like something is very clearly broken
to me. I understand it, right because parents are paying
for this service, and I'm not trying to kind of
(08:27):
like look down my nose at other programs. I take
checks from parents too, you know, Like I understand that
I'm kind of complicit in this ecosystem as well. The
difference is is that the value proposition of what we
focus on is very clearly defined. What we focus on
is skill development and engagement, and you have to pair
those two things because the more that you can keep
(08:49):
a kid engaged, the more that they want to play
the game, and the more that they want to play
the game the more that you can develop skill. So
for us, it's really really important that we kind of
bundle those two things together because that's the hook to
have a kid play this game for as long as possible.
And yeah, you know, drive line, we are the best
(09:10):
in the world of player development. That doesn't mean that
when I take kids you know into my program that
are ten U, eleven U, twelve U, that I'm really
have any specific regard for whether they're going to be
professional athletes or not. With those you know, thirteen to
fourteen and under kids, what we really specifically focus on
is helping them get the most enjoyment and competitiveness out
(09:31):
of their ninety foot career. Right we are very much
focused on the long term, the long term goal for
those fourteen and up kids that are already.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Playing ninety foot baseball again.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Let's be as competitive as possible for this period of
time and then if you have an eye towards playing
somewhere after that. Right, So we're talking about collegiately or
pro we have to be honest about what those things take.
There are local junior colleges in our area who in
the Northwest here are just not going to look at
you if you throw slower than eighty five. So when
(10:03):
like the fifteen year old that throws ninety two gets
an offer letter from a D one school, success leaves clues, right,
Like those colleges are looking for kids that have outlier skills,
and they are hoping that that kid stays as good
or continues to get better over time. The way that
this is relevant to like your average ten, twelve, fourteen
(10:25):
year old is you just want to be competitive.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Right.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
The game of baseball is incredibly frustrating, maddeningly so often.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
But if you've got good stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
You're more likely to be competitive and you're more likely
to be successful because of that. So it ends up
kind of being like this chip allocation problem. Right, I've
only got so many chips that I can put on
the table, So the question is.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
How do I distribute them?
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Distribute them towards kind of the long term goal and
things like like general athletic development that'll inform and drive that,
Or do I have kids doing forty five minutes of
four quarter drills were trying to maximize our ability to
turn a double play?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Atten you, I've seen a lot of ten you baseball.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
I've seen some really good tenure in baseball, and I've
seen some double plays turned by kids at those age.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
But the problem is is that again, take those kids
out of that environment that is not evergreen, put them
in the long term environment.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
And hey, look, the throw from from short to first
is like one hundred and thirty feet if you were
not ready to make that throw when you're playing ninety
foot baseball and you have to Coaches don't really have
a lot of options, right other than kind of hiding
a kid over at second base and going like, all right, well,
the skill isn't there and the strength isn't there, but
hopefully there's like one place that that kid can play.
(11:42):
And for me, that is just the exact recipe that's
going to have a kid want to walk away from
my game. I love baseball, and I love it deeply
because of kind of how it's informed my perspective on
all of my life, and I just want more kids
to kind of get that benefit from it. And I
think the way that we can maximize that is having
them play for as long as possible, which means we
(12:04):
have to address skill, but you also have to address
the engagement part of things, because if they hate it
or if they aren't engaged because they don't realize they're
getting better.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
They're going to quit.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
And that's part of the reason why we focus so
much about training with data, because more that I can
communicate a kid that they are actually getting better, then
they kind of treat it like a video game.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Most of these kids are even playing like Call of Duty, MLB,
the show Fortnite, you know, pick a.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Game, they know what level their character is. Sure.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
The way that we communicate kind of data about training
for kids is very similar to that. I want you
to understand. You know, this month, you took this many swings,
and you are this much better than you were thirty
days ago. That's how we drive engagement.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
I love how you have the separation and ages. As
I'm listening to you, I'm going you know, because I
talk a lot about what's age appropriate and you know,
and I love I always and I don't know why.
I I think it's just common sense or my own experience,
but I always kind of separate. It's like that age
thirteen fourteen. It's sure the baseball fields grow at some point, right,
(13:07):
basically a big league field, but then puberty is around
that age too. In most cases, right, So kids are
getting stronger, kids are developing, and it correlates with that.
But I think, like you mentioned when performance or I
think you mentioned something on the lines of when that
starts to matter a little bit more as they get older.
Because truth be told, majority or a lot of programs
(13:30):
out there are focusing the same amount of intent or
emphasis on performance at seven, eight, nine, ten as some
programs are at sixteen, seventeen, eighteen. What I mean by performance,
I mean the outcomes, the wins and losses, and it's like, ye,
to your point, it just doesn't really matter at all
at those really early ages, correct, Not that you want
(13:52):
to lose. I mean, listen, no one goes out there.
We don't lose, but you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Of course, you know, like our our fourteen year old
team UH won a tournament two weekends ago, and you know,
like not for nothing, kind of dominated the whole thing
because we moved the vats faster and we throw the
ball harder than anybody else that we that we had
as competition in that tournament. I'm sure that if we
played some of the top competition in Arizona or Florida
(14:18):
or you know, any other one of those hotbeds that
we we might just end up just getting dusted, right,
But like on that particular weekend, we had really good stuff.
Just as last weekend we finished, you know again, like
this one tournament we are going to travel a little
bit too, and we came in second place. And the
funny thing about winning is like you go out and
win a tournament and then your expectations change, you know,
(14:40):
like because we win the tournament. We won the tournament
just the week before. These kids kind of went into
this one, They're like, we expect to win. And I
love that, you know, like I love I love cultivating
that type of competitive mindset where they really they feel
and know.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
That they can go out and compete with anybody. Like
I'm I'm so in on that.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
The trick is that as you know, as the administrator,
one of the administrators of the program, and the way
that kind of my coaches amplify or amplify kind of
the signal that we send. I'm still not going to
define these kids by their competitive results.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
I'm just I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
They they are worth more to me as human beings
then whether they checked a.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
W or an L in a box. Score.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Those competition results are highly, highly, highly meaningful to parents
because winning is a very palatable outcome, right, It's this,
it's the safest one. If I go to the water
cooler and I tell, you know, Frank, my coworker, Hey,
you know, my kids went out and won this. You know,
He's like, well, how did the tournament go? And I'm like, yeah,
(15:50):
we won. It's an easy conversation to have the same,
isn't isn't true if we didn't win right now, all
of a sudden we got to talk about, well, you
know what happened, right, And now I got to give Frank,
you know, all this like context to our competition results,
because I don't want him to think that my kid
is a loser, right, or that he's on a loser organization.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
But you're exactly right at the interplay.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Of kind of like the non linear biological aspect of
this whole thing.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
You're talking about kids who are going to grow.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
They grow all over the place and in uneven rates
and at uneven times. And when you mix that kind
of thing with you know, me me like reinforcing this idea,
Like hey Johnny, hey Katie, you know I really need
you here like like, yeah, I want to I want
you to perform, right, I mean all the training that
(16:42):
we do that the point is to perform. However, I don't.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Love my kids any different if.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
They struggle, you know, I don't love him any different
if they make a mistake. To the contrary, when they
struggle or when they make mistakes, that's the time that
I got to double down on how much I love them,
And that's the time I have to double down on
helping them understand the context of why they might have struggled. Right,
is there a learning opportunity there? Because if I just
(17:11):
go like, hey man, you you craft the bed, and
I might cut that kid, or I stigmatize that kid,
or I don't give that kid any playing time in
the next events, I'm doubling down on what the kid
already understands, which is they didn't do as well as
they wanted in those moments.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
What I want to do is the other thing, which
is like.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Hey man, like I man, I'm here for you and
I love you, and I wouldn't trade you for any
other kid in that other dugout period because that's just
I think the thing that they need to feel good
about themselves when they're playing sports. Sports is not always
going to make you feel It's not going to always
(17:53):
make you feel good like that. That's the truth if
you really want to get into the weeds. There's a
developmental psychologist named she Psa who basically pioneered our kind
of conceptualization of the way that kids go through different
cognitive phases of their development. Before kids are about thirteen
fourteen years old, they exist in a cognitive stage that
(18:16):
is very much.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Defined by kind of a concrete.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Understanding of the world, which is in kind of these
terms we lost and I'm a loser.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Right, They don't kind of go like.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
We lost, but I did my bed, But more often
they'll draw like a direct line between the outcome and
their own sense of self. That changes over time in
the way that the brain develops.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
But that stage of things doesn't start.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Until about thirteen and fourteen, and in that process will
last into adulthood. So when you are that guy who
like doubles down on enforcing consequence to children about their
competitive results and how they didn't perform perfectly, your leaning
in to the thing that that child already thinks. Right,
(19:04):
But again, you know, the more that we like professionalize
youth sport, and the more that we treat children like
adults through athletics. If we miss that part of things,
if we miss just like the cognitive development side of things,
we are missing opportunities to give them context that is
just going to keep them playing sports for longer.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
And I think that is a good thing. You know, like.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
We're gonna have kids in our program, They're gonna go
play college baseball. We're gonna have kids in our program,
they're gonna go to the pros. That's just a thing
that is going to happen. I am just as invested
and I am just as interested in that kid who
stops playing sports in high school and they don't play
in college, but they have a positive relationship with athletics
and sports and they pass that on to their children.
(19:51):
I think both of those things are just as valuable.
But the more that we go down this rabbit hole
of like the you know the seven, you you know, Lube,
Saint Patrick's Day, you know, Triple Sapphire Elite Invitational Championship,
We're missing that aspect of things. We're reinforcing the kids
(20:12):
that there's like, hey man, there might be you know,
fifty teams in this bracket. So that's six hundred children.
Well guess what, there's twelve of those kids that gets
to feel okay about those participation, and everybody else should
feel like a loser. I know that you we should
keep this clean, but I don't need to tell you
how really jacked up that I think.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
That configuration of youth sports is.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
So what we do a drive line with the Academy
is basically everything possible to push back against stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
I love that man and the Jiffy Lube Sapphire Elite Invitational.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
I know I took out about ten words.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
I love that because you started laughing, like because you
look up some of these tournaments. That's exactly the Mickey
Mouse you know two step. You're like, what the every
other weekend there's just and it is what it is.
It's you know again, it's you know that money grab man,
it's that chase that whatever. But at the end of
the day, I love how you're putting you know, the
(21:08):
cognitive You're talking a lot about that, and we cover
a lot of the mental components and kids time their
self worth the sport. How much of a dangerous slippery
slope that is when we come back, Devin and I
discussed his coaching philosophy and why he utilizes data to
improve kids' skill development and engagement. As we go into break,
I wanted to share another update with you from our
(21:29):
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(21:49):
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Speaker 4 (22:04):
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Speaker 3 (22:06):
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eleven am Mountain Time. Where we left off, Devin and
(22:28):
I were about to talk about the importance of developing
kids in a safe and structured environment that also keeps
them engaged and motivated. What I'm fascinated with even more
I don't want to say even more so, but equally,
And it gets talked about a lot with drive Line
and the work you guys do is you know, the
physical development. But something that you've always talked about is
about moving fast. It's about moving with explosiveness. I mean,
(22:51):
a lot of the things that I've talked to you
about in the past.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
You know, translate to like every sport.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
You know.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
I've watched some of the videos you guys, but I'm
sure their curtailed to you know, baseball specific in many ways,
but a lot of these explosive movements and such that
you guys are doing in your facility really could translate
to any sport. And that's kind of why I really
admire Like, you know, and you talk about the video
game thing, the measuring I know, you know, analytics and
data at times from some people gets a bad rep
(23:18):
but I just I just.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
Don't see that. It keeps kids engaged.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
There's so much benefit to it, and and it's it's
a way to measure things. And more importantly, it's not
going anywhere. Technology is not going anywhere. So correct, how
how do you see the evolution because it's not just baseball,
it's like every sport where data is being used. And
how do you see that with the physical development? Have
(23:42):
you seen tons of like examples within the academy and
in the program where you've seen these kids like maybe
even go on to different sports, but where this explosive
movements and body control things that are learning from you guys,
has really helped them evolve into just overall better athletes.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah. So the first thing I would say is, like, our.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Perspective on this need for kind of again what you'd
probably call general athletic development, is informed by the data
that we've collected. This isn't a guess, these are just facts.
There are guys playing in the show in MLB right
now who if they wanted to, could be Olympic athletes
in like track and field sports.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
That's just a fact. You know. The thing they used
to say back in the day is like success leaves clues. Right.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Well, if you come in and you can like broad
jump your way pretty close to like the Olympic world record,
you know, doing it like your first or second time,
you're probably a pretty good athlete, and it's reasonable to
expect that your baseball skills are relatively good.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Now, they might not be perfect. You know, there's plenty
of guys who.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
You know, they might throw a buckle one and they
can't get the broad side of the barn, and that's
typically used as the reason to kind of demonize any
type of training that revolves around acknowledging that like moving
fast and force production is important.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
I think the fundamentally thing you need to keep in mind.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
There is that the reason that those guys get drafted
who can't hit the broadside of a barn is because
more Major League Baseball teams and even colleges are willing
to take a risk on one of those guys and
help to refine that skill set.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Then guys who are going.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
To like dot seventy eight, that is a fact, that
is the reality, and it's you know, if you if
you're kind of intentionally obtuse to the nature of our
game that way, then you're going to be that kid
who's like, I don't know why there are no scouts
that want to see you.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Know, they don't want no scouts that want to see
my son. I just need one coach to I just
need one coach to see him.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
And like, coaches are looking for players because coaches at
the collegiate level want to keep their jobs right, They're
not intentionally ignorant about any prospect out there.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
But if you are that.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Guy who's like seventy seven to seventy eight as a senior,
and you're a parent who your parent has spent thousands
and thousands of dollars sending you to showcase, well, guess what.
The reality that no one's paying attention to you, the
reality that you don't have a roster spot, much less
a scholarship, is because there are probably like three million
other guys just like you, Because you don't have a
(26:13):
skill that is in demand on the market. You have
a skill that is very similar to a crap ton
of other guys who have also been fundamentally ignorant about
the signal that college and Major League Baseball are sending
to high school athletes. I've got a kid who was
in our program for two, like two and a half years,
(26:35):
and then decided he wanted to stop playing baseball because
he was going to be like he was going to
focus on VMX riding.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
I don't know the first thing about VMX riding.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
The last BMX experience I had was like dragging the
rear tire of my VMX bike down my parents' driveway.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
But he was a savage.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Athlete when we had him, incredibly strong. He was like
ninety five ninety six mile an hour top top eggs
of velocity as like a fifteen year old. So when
I see him posting these clips on Instagram of him
just like tearing it up on VMX and he has
this phenomenal body awareness and spatial awareness and control, and
(27:19):
he has phenomenal force production, it's like, yeah, again, success
leaves clues.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
There was a.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Period of time where there were guys in the game
of baseball who you know, had a body type that
was very similar to like my USPS guy that time
is over all you need to do is like, you know,
google ar Nolda's Chapman biceps and see, like, dudes are
dudes for a reason. And my whole perspective on this
(27:47):
is just you know, again, children are inherently adaptable to
the stimulus that they're given. I'm sure that at a
certain point there is like a genetic threshold for that, right,
and everybody's going to throw a hundred. That's just the reality.
But I think we don't really even know how many
kids could run it up to eighty five eighty nine
(28:11):
healthily because we just we miss opportunities to develop this
stuff safely and progressively over a long period of time.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
You know, what I think is fascinating is like you
can make and I know this is a big point
of emphasis for you, d and you talk about you know,
I've heard you talk about how important it is to
have fun. And just like every other guest I have
who's certainly competed or coached at a high level, no
matter what the sport is or anything like, fun has
to be a part of it. And you know, I've
incorporated in, you know, with with coaching with young kids,
(28:42):
and I always try to competitive games, and you know,
baseball could be a very very boring sport at young ages.
You know how many times have you pulled up to
a park or whatever and you see a bunch of
kids standing around a field and like a coach throwing
batting practice to one kid and he's you know, poor
kids missing half of them, and there's just a bunch
of kids standing in the outfield or in the infield,
(29:04):
just standing around.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
I mean, it looks terrible.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
It's the absolute worst the work.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
But but you can run a practice with those same kids,
keep them highly engaged, moving from station to station, making
it competitive, doing different types of baseball movements and things
that are going to help them get better, you know,
skill specific wise, but also you know athletically, and these
kids are going to be engaged in having fun. Is
that something that you put into your practices at your
(29:29):
academy to incorporate like those stations, those competitive games at
every at all young ages.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah, I mean a million percent. Are you know?
Speaker 1 (29:37):
I said years ago what we wanted to develop with
skills to scale, You know, you want to develop a
set of skills that actually scale as the game changes
over time. And the mechanism that you deliver that is
just through games. So basically, anytime that we're training, we
are playing a game and we are counting points.
Speaker 4 (29:57):
Which is what kids want to do.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
It's it correct and and you know the secret sauce there,
right is.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
And this is something we talked about in our Skills
and Skill Practice book.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
I just finished the manuscript for a new training book
that's going to cover all of this stuff in detail
that ideally should be out, you know, by by January
of this coming year.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
They want to compete, like like.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
I mean, when we're talking about kids wanting to play games,
what they really want to do is they want to compete, right,
They want to know how good they are. The valuable
point about keeping score of these things is that the
moment that I can say, hey, you know, last week
the game was around the world and we're going to go,
you know, three rounds of three and you're trying to
(30:43):
go pulside, biddle appo, pulside middle appo, pulside middle appo,
and I'm going to give you a point for each
one of those ballotball outcomes that you produce. If you
go in in the first, you know, first time in
that environment and you get like one point, right, that's
not going to feel great because you got one out
of the nine available points. When we do that same
(31:04):
game environment a week from then and you get three.
Now we're talking about context and we're specifically talking about
context that it's designed to drive engagement in a child.
We are giving them some signal that they are getting
better at something that is valuable and the Mormon that
I can lean into that what I've just seen, again
in more than a decade of doing this, is that
(31:26):
the higher their interest and their focus and their engagement
in the entire activity becomes. And again consider that environment
versus kind of what's conventional about like hitting lessons for
a kid. You're going to come in and you're going
to pay seventy five dollars or one hundred and fifty
dollars an hour, and that instructor sometimes and I'm not
(31:47):
trying to demonize anybody that's given lessons, because I mean
I've done them, but typically the way that that lesson
mechanism works is like the outcome of it has to
be me going to the player and the parent with
like a laundry list of the things that they did wrong,
and then they come in the next session and maybe
I have a new laundry list of things that are
(32:08):
wrong right, and I want to continue to like highlight
their deficiencies because to a degree, it highlights the need
for you to continue to utilize my surfaces. And if
that entire thing exists in an ecosystem where we're never
answering very simple questions about like how hard did you
hit the ball on day one versus how hard did
you hit the ball on day fourteen, it just exists
(32:31):
in like this idiotic vacuum that again is intentionally ignorant
only because you know, baseball is a very old game,
and I say this is like a fat old guy myself.
It's coached and taught by old guys just like me,
and we're kind of a little bit resistant to the
signal that just like moving the bad fast is and
(32:53):
hitting the ball hard is good. You know, Like there
are a lot of people that had a lot of
different thoughts about the home run derby that just you know,
was last week or whatever, and you were talking about
going back to the format of only ten outs or
or whether we're just going to kind of do it
a rapid.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Fireway that it is right now. I kind of don't care.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
But I think the biggest thing that's kind of signaled
there is that like you have to hit the you
have to move the that fast to hit the ball hard.
That that's just that's just reality, you know, Like, Yeah,
I would love for every kid in my academy to
have the type of fine motor control and feel that
Greg Maddox had as an adult. That's an unlikely thing
(33:34):
that I'm ever going to be satisfied in having.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
So what can I do?
Speaker 1 (33:38):
I can help kids throw the ball hard in and
around the zone, because the better that they can do that,
the more that they take away decision making time for hitters,
and typically the better the results are going to be.
Are you going to still give up some barrels?
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Man, Like, yeah, everybody does. Greg Maddox did too. But
what I want to do is just be clear about
kind of like what is what are the elements of
good performance? And how can I develop them and a
kid in a safe and structured format that keeps them
engaged throughout that whole process.
Speaker 4 (34:08):
Devin, It's fascinating, It's true.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
And if you're not paying attention to I love how
gracefully you said the modern day baseball player does not
look like the USPS United States Postal Service worker that
they may once have looked like back in the forties, fifties, sixties,
and seventies. Because it's true and people don't want to
hear it. It's just the way that it is. And
(34:31):
bottom line is if things are done in a way
where kids are having fun, they're having joy and they
keep wanting to show back up and they're becoming the
best version of themselves in a physical way, which ultimately
will lead to them doing so in in a mental
way in a positive environment.
Speaker 4 (34:47):
Man, I love it. I love the energy.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
And of course, anytime you're trying to you mentioned the
game being old. I mean, you know I'm an old
head too. I'm turned forty four here soon. It's like,
you know, you're gonna get pushback, resistance for those who
like to oh it's a classic America's past time, it's like, dude,
you know what man? Like they said in Moneyball, Man,
it's like, what the hell is that the term? It's
like adapt or die, And that's the way it is
(35:10):
about in anything.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Man.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Kids change, People change, and they're supposed to change. And
if we stick in the past, then we're not evolving
and getting better ourselves as adults. So I can talk
to you all day long and we'll do it again,
But where can people find you connect with?
Speaker 4 (35:25):
You find your content?
Speaker 3 (35:26):
Now?
Speaker 4 (35:26):
You have the podcast, now the blog, where can they
connect with you?
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (35:30):
So the socials you can find me typically at Devin
Morgan DVN, M R G A N, or you can
find drive Line Youth. Now that we have the drive
Line Youth socials, I'm not as active on my social
I feel like anymore, but that also just might be
because I have too much work to do. So on socials,
you either either need Devin Morgan or just Drive Line Youth.
(35:52):
And we also have the drive Line Accademy podcast. We're
pretty good about releasing those new episodes about every every
week week and a half. Maybe it's myself and Jeremy Techtiel,
who's the assistant director with me at Driveline. Jeremy is
my brother. I love that dude. He is helping me
build this thing brick by brick and Jeremy, you know,
being able to bring him in is another kind of
(36:14):
administrator at the top end of our program has has
made us phenomenally better. I just can't I can't say
enough about his contribution. And Jeremy and I do the podcast.
We just kind of talked about, you know, some of
the good and bad and inane and frustrating things about
youth baseball on the drive Line Academy podcast, and I'm
really thankful to people that have been listening. Our listening
(36:36):
numbers are I think either at are kind of over
like fifty thousand now, so we've got that thing going.
So yeah, the podcast and the social stuff is probably
the best way to do it.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Like I said, I just finished the manuscript for our
new training book.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
The way that I'm approaching that is basically, you know,
Kyle Boody, who's founder of drive Line, wrote Hacking the
Knnetic Chain and Hacking the Knnectic Chain, you know, changed
my life, no bones about it, and he changed lives
of a bunch of different guys, and it really kind
of exists as one of the pillar foundations of dry lines.
Kind of approach to what we're trying to do and
(37:08):
the way that we think about it. You know, Kyle,
I think, in a sense, deleted tweets said years ago,
you know, consider the current version of yourself as basically
just a representation of what you've done, you know, the
general ideas like you are what you do, and you know,
years later, we had a guy named Casey Weathers.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Was training a drive Line.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Casey was a pitcher at Vanderbilt, was drafted, struggled with injuries,
came to us and actually got healthy and kind of
got back into baseball, and then after he finally retired,
did a famous speech at drive Line that I reiterate
to basically everyone that I have the opportunity to. There's
a video up on YouTube called Casey weathers How good
am I? And in that speech he says a very
(37:48):
very simple quote that I again changed my life.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Man, Like, hard work gives you honesty, you know, for anything.
Like you said, we just want these kids to get.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
The most out as possible, and if you work hard
in that endeavor, I think you have the ability to
reflect on it and be honest about the outcome. Again,
not all these kids are going to go to the show,
and that's okay. But I think that perspective on life
and personal development and achievement is something you could apply
to baseball. It's something you can apply to cooking, It's
something you can apply to your marriage. Like it really
(38:18):
kind of defines my life in the time that I've had,
you know, the pleasure of being able to work a
drive on and run our program. So yeah, you know,
either the socialism the podcast, or with the book coming out. Man,
we just want more people, i think, to engage themselves
on this different way about thinking about their children and
sports in baseball. Because I'm not going to be shy
(38:41):
about the fact that i think change is necessary. I
think the current trajectory where we're going is not great,
and I want to do everything in my power to
kind of shift that as possible. It's just that it's
the one thing in my life other than my wife
and my children, that I'm passionate about.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Devin Morgan, your passion is infectious. I'm grateful for you
coming on, and I love the work that you do
and I'm just so thankful.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
Man, this has been freaking awesome. Thanks for taking the time.
Let's share with us.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Bro anytime, anywhere. Brother, I'm here for you.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
That's Devin Morgan, director of Youth Baseball at Driveline. Thanks
for listening to the Reform Sports Podcast. If you've enjoyed
this episode, we would appreciate it if you took a
moment to rate and review our podcast. As we work
to grow our community of supporters and advocates for more
Reform sports content, please subscribe to our newsletter and blog
at Reformsports project dot com.
Speaker 4 (39:28):
You can also follow
Speaker 3 (39:29):
Us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn.
I love baseball, and I love it deeply because of
how it's informed my perspective on all of my life,
and I just want more kids to get that benefit
from it, and I think the way that we can
maximize that is having them played for as long as possible,
which means we have to address skill, but you also
have to address the.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Engagement part of things, because if.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
They hate it, or if they aren't engaged because they
don't realize they're getting better, they're going to quit.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
This is the Reform Sports Project, a podcast about restoring
healthy balance and perspective in all areas of sports through
education and advocacy. This is Nick Bonacor from the Reform
Sports Podcast. Today, I'm speaking with Devin Morgan, director of
Youth Baseball for drive Line, one of the top data
driven baseball player development organizations, the host of the drive
(00:47):
Line Academy Youth Baseball podcast. Devin and I discuss the
importance of understanding kids stages of cognitive development, his mission
to develop skills at scale, and why he believes success
leaves clues. He's one of the great guys out there
in youth sports and if for all the right reasons,
I'm pumped to have them Director of Youth Baseball from
(01:07):
drive Line, my man, Devin Morgan, d thanks for hopping
on man.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
That's always a pleasure. Man. It's good to connect with
you again our issue. Dude.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
It's been a while, I know, I know, and you
got so much going on. I mean, in the last
you know year, two years, I think you guys over
a drive Line, you rolled out the teams.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
For those of you out.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
There who have been maybe on Mars or somewhere over
the last you know, ten years in baseball, drive Line
is at the forefront of technology. They're at the forefront
of scrutiny. They're at the forefront of of every They
got lovers, they got haters, all that stuff. Like any
prosperous and growing entity, you're gonna have both sides. But
(01:45):
my man, Devin, what did you guys recently? Do you
rolled out the new the travel team?
Speaker 4 (01:50):
What's going on?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, so we started doing teams.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Man, this makes me feel old, But I think when
we first talked, it was kind of like an idea
of what we were gonna do. And we are now
moving into season four of our travel Although you know,
travel Teams probably isn't accurate because you know, we you know,
at drive Line, we love to kind of book conventional wisdom.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
And we don't travel that much.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I actually just got back last night from kind of
our only travel tournament that we do, and we're in
Washington with our teams and we just travel.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Down to Oregon.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
How far is that?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Uh, yeah, it's a three three and a half hour
drive if you if you catch the traffic right, So
you know, we can give it a chance to kind
of do the the travel stuff that the kids want
to do, where they can kind of hang out in
the pool and and goof off.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
But we're also trying to.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Do that in a way, we're minimizing some of the
economic impact on our families, because the moment that you
you know, you take a family of four and you
throw them on an airplane and you got to get
a hotel.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
And you got to rent a car, and you got
to eat out, it.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Gets really expensive, really fast. And you know, inso much
as we have to do that, we're trying to make
this thing accessible to more people.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
And one of the easy ways you can do.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
That is just kind of mitigate some of the you know,
some of the costs that you actually can control and
the reality is, when you're talking about kids, you know,
ten to eighteen, unless we're really dominating like the entire
local market, you've probably got good enough competition in your
local area, so you don't need to spend three thousand
dollars a weekend flying across the country, you know, just
(03:28):
to just to play games.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
In my you know, humble opinion. So, yeah, we were
running into we're starting. We were just finishing season.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Three of our teams will start our next off season
in October. We have two hundred issue kids in the
program right now, and we also have teams that are
spinning up in Arizona where we have our Scott's Steel location.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
We got four teams down there.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
It's about a little under sixty kids and they'll be
starting up soon.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
So we're going, we're growing.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
So what I love for people to know I I
know this because you and I have talked a lot.
I follow you, and we're very like minded in many ways,
particularly when it comes to the youth side.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
I'd like to say, and you kind of touched.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
On a little bit there just by describing the only
three and a half hour drive. I mean, for God's sakes,
I'm in the state of North Carolina. If you want
to go halfway across the state, you got to go
three and a half hours. People might hear that and go,
oh my god, that's not even traveling.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
You know.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
Some people do that every weekend, depending on where you're at.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
So what is it about your ideology and approach to
youth baseball? And now, like you mentioned quote unquote travel
that you're doing with drive Line, but like versus some
of the other organizations, are the trends that you see
out there where it is halfway across the country, are
three thousand dollars to go play in these tournaments? Why
is it that it's important to you to kind of
(04:45):
buck the trend a little bit?
Speaker 1 (04:47):
It's important to me. So I'll give you the technical
answer first. The guys over at the Aspen Institute had
this project Cleay Initiative, and they've been collecting data on
youth sport and they've been publishing it since I think
around twenty eighteen.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
And in that amount of time, what they've shown.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Is that baseball loses a disproportionate number of participants. So
we're talking about kids leaving our sport than any other sport,
any other major or minor sport in the United States,
Baseball loses somewhere around one point two million kids every
single year in that transition from like the six to
twelve group to the thirteen to eighteen group. The thing
(05:28):
that happens around the same time is you have a
massive increase in playspace. You go from like the forty
six foot field to a full on sixty ninety. That
amount of increase is somewhere north of like two hundred
and fifty to three hundred percent, depending on the dimensions
of the fields. And thankfully baseball is one of these
weird sports where the playspase. You know, there's a lot
of bizarre baseball fields out there, which is hilarious.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
But point being.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
That the change in playspase necessitates a different type of skill.
Right in the fact that that change in play space
correlates directly with this time that we have this massive
participant loss, to me has sent a very simple signal
that we're missing opportunities to develop the long term skill
(06:12):
in a period of time when it kind of doesn't
mean that much, right. You know, from T ball to
like twelve thirteen baseball, a lot of times you could
have a bad game and you can take your kid
out for ice cream and they're gonna be fine.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
In an addition, it's not like they have scouts that
are watching these games.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
It's not that pro coaches are watching these games. The
people that are watching them are parents, right.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
It's people like you and I who have a direct
biological relationship with the athletes on the field and are
compelled sometimes inappropriately to express our emotions about the result
of those games in consideration. So the first thing, you know,
for our ideology of what we're trying to do with
(06:57):
dry Line Academy is just kind.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Of recognized that thing.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Baseball is not a game where you can develop kind
of a skill set at a very young age and
that's going.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
To serve you the whole time.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
You have to be aware of how the environment is
going to necessitate different types of skills. And then beyond that,
you know, kind of the non technical description is I've
been around this for long enough, you know this is
somewhere around twelve or thirteen years that I am troubled
by kind of the large, you know, the large kind
of path that our game is going. We are putting
(07:32):
kids in a position where their performance is treated the
same way that like a lot of professional teams performance.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Are treated right. Like I was at a tournament.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
One time and in one of our teams was playing,
and I went into the bathroom and there's a kid
on the other team that was trying to exit the bathroom.
And before that kid could get out of the bathroom,
they started getting lit up by a parent on that
team about why the team wasn't hitting today. And like
(08:06):
if kids can't even get that type of break from
you know, adults kind of reinforcing these imaginary consequences to
their competition results, then like something is very clearly broken
to me. I understand it, right because parents are paying
for this service, and I'm not trying to kind of
(08:27):
like look down my nose at other programs. I take
checks from parents too, you know, Like I understand that
I'm kind of complicit in this ecosystem as well. The
difference is is that the value proposition of what we
focus on is very clearly defined. What we focus on
is skill development and engagement, and you have to pair
those two things because the more that you can keep
(08:49):
a kid engaged, the more that they want to play
the game, and the more that they want to play
the game the more that you can develop skill. So
for us, it's really really important that we kind of
bundle those two things together because that's the hook to
have a kid play this game for as long as possible.
And yeah, you know, drive line, we are the best
(09:10):
in the world of player development. That doesn't mean that
when I take kids you know into my program that
are ten U, eleven U, twelve U, that I'm really
have any specific regard for whether they're going to be
professional athletes or not. With those you know, thirteen to
fourteen and under kids, what we really specifically focus on
is helping them get the most enjoyment and competitiveness out
(09:31):
of their ninety foot career. Right we are very much
focused on the long term, the long term goal for
those fourteen and up kids that are already.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Playing ninety foot baseball again.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Let's be as competitive as possible for this period of
time and then if you have an eye towards playing
somewhere after that. Right, So we're talking about collegiately or
pro we have to be honest about what those things take.
There are local junior colleges in our area who in
the Northwest here are just not going to look at
you if you throw slower than eighty five. So when
(10:03):
like the fifteen year old that throws ninety two gets
an offer letter from a D one school, success leaves clues, right,
Like those colleges are looking for kids that have outlier skills,
and they are hoping that that kid stays as good
or continues to get better over time. The way that
this is relevant to like your average ten, twelve, fourteen
(10:25):
year old is you just want to be competitive.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Right.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
The game of baseball is incredibly frustrating, maddeningly so often.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
But if you've got good stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
You're more likely to be competitive and you're more likely
to be successful because of that. So it ends up
kind of being like this chip allocation problem. Right, I've
only got so many chips that I can put on
the table, So the question is.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
How do I distribute them?
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Distribute them towards kind of the long term goal and
things like like general athletic development that'll inform and drive that,
Or do I have kids doing forty five minutes of
four quarter drills were trying to maximize our ability to
turn a double play?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Atten you, I've seen a lot of ten you baseball.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
I've seen some really good tenure in baseball, and I've
seen some double plays turned by kids at those age.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
But the problem is is that again, take those kids
out of that environment that is not evergreen, put them
in the long term environment.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
And hey, look, the throw from from short to first
is like one hundred and thirty feet if you were
not ready to make that throw when you're playing ninety
foot baseball and you have to Coaches don't really have
a lot of options, right other than kind of hiding
a kid over at second base and going like, all right, well,
the skill isn't there and the strength isn't there, but
hopefully there's like one place that that kid can play.
(11:42):
And for me, that is just the exact recipe that's
going to have a kid want to walk away from
my game. I love baseball, and I love it deeply
because of kind of how it's informed my perspective on
all of my life, and I just want more kids
to kind of get that benefit from it. And I
think the way that we can maximize that is having
them play for as long as possible, which means we
(12:04):
have to address skill, but you also have to address
the engagement part of things, because if they hate it
or if they aren't engaged because they don't realize they're
getting better.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
They're going to quit.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
And that's part of the reason why we focus so
much about training with data, because more that I can
communicate a kid that they are actually getting better, then
they kind of treat it like a video game.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Most of these kids are even playing like Call of Duty, MLB,
the show Fortnite, you know, pick a.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Game, they know what level their character is. Sure.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
The way that we communicate kind of data about training
for kids is very similar to that. I want you
to understand. You know, this month, you took this many swings,
and you are this much better than you were thirty
days ago. That's how we drive engagement.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
I love how you have the separation and ages. As
I'm listening to you, I'm going you know, because I
talk a lot about what's age appropriate and you know,
and I love I always and I don't know why.
I I think it's just common sense or my own experience,
but I always kind of separate. It's like that age
thirteen fourteen. It's sure the baseball fields grow at some point, right,
(13:07):
basically a big league field, but then puberty is around
that age too. In most cases, right, So kids are
getting stronger, kids are developing, and it correlates with that.
But I think, like you mentioned when performance or I
think you mentioned something on the lines of when that
starts to matter a little bit more as they get older.
Because truth be told, majority or a lot of programs
(13:30):
out there are focusing the same amount of intent or
emphasis on performance at seven, eight, nine, ten as some
programs are at sixteen, seventeen, eighteen. What I mean by performance,
I mean the outcomes, the wins and losses, and it's like, ye,
to your point, it just doesn't really matter at all
at those really early ages, correct, Not that you want
(13:52):
to lose. I mean, listen, no one goes out there.
We don't lose, but you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Of course, you know, like our our fourteen year old
team UH won a tournament two weekends ago, and you know,
like not for nothing, kind of dominated the whole thing
because we moved the vats faster and we throw the
ball harder than anybody else that we that we had
as competition in that tournament. I'm sure that if we
played some of the top competition in Arizona or Florida
(14:18):
or you know, any other one of those hotbeds that
we we might just end up just getting dusted, right,
But like on that particular weekend, we had really good stuff.
Just as last weekend we finished, you know again, like
this one tournament we are going to travel a little
bit too, and we came in second place. And the
funny thing about winning is like you go out and
win a tournament and then your expectations change, you know,
(14:40):
like because we win the tournament. We won the tournament
just the week before. These kids kind of went into
this one, They're like, we expect to win. And I
love that, you know, like I love I love cultivating
that type of competitive mindset where they really they feel
and know.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
That they can go out and compete with anybody. Like
I'm I'm so in on that.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
The trick is that as you know, as the administrator,
one of the administrators of the program, and the way
that kind of my coaches amplify or amplify kind of
the signal that we send. I'm still not going to
define these kids by their competitive results.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
I'm just I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
They they are worth more to me as human beings
then whether they checked a.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
W or an L in a box. Score.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Those competition results are highly, highly, highly meaningful to parents
because winning is a very palatable outcome, right, It's this,
it's the safest one. If I go to the water
cooler and I tell, you know, Frank, my coworker, Hey,
you know, my kids went out and won this. You know,
He's like, well, how did the tournament go? And I'm like, yeah,
(15:50):
we won. It's an easy conversation to have the same,
isn't isn't true if we didn't win right now, all
of a sudden we got to talk about, well, you
know what happened, right, And now I got to give Frank,
you know, all this like context to our competition results,
because I don't want him to think that my kid
is a loser, right, or that he's on a loser organization.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
But you're exactly right at the interplay.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Of kind of like the non linear biological aspect of
this whole thing.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
You're talking about kids who are going to grow.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
They grow all over the place and in uneven rates
and at uneven times. And when you mix that kind
of thing with you know, me me like reinforcing this idea,
Like hey Johnny, hey Katie, you know I really need
you here like like, yeah, I want to I want
you to perform, right, I mean all the training that
(16:42):
we do that the point is to perform. However, I don't.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Love my kids any different if.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
They struggle, you know, I don't love him any different
if they make a mistake. To the contrary, when they
struggle or when they make mistakes, that's the time that
I got to double down on how much I love them,
And that's the time I have to double down on
helping them understand the context of why they might have struggled. Right,
is there a learning opportunity there? Because if I just
(17:11):
go like, hey man, you you craft the bed, and
I might cut that kid, or I stigmatize that kid,
or I don't give that kid any playing time in
the next events, I'm doubling down on what the kid
already understands, which is they didn't do as well as
they wanted in those moments.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
What I want to do is the other thing, which
is like.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Hey man, like I man, I'm here for you and
I love you, and I wouldn't trade you for any
other kid in that other dugout period because that's just
I think the thing that they need to feel good
about themselves when they're playing sports. Sports is not always
going to make you feel It's not going to always
(17:53):
make you feel good like that. That's the truth if
you really want to get into the weeds. There's a
developmental psychologist named she Psa who basically pioneered our kind
of conceptualization of the way that kids go through different
cognitive phases of their development. Before kids are about thirteen
fourteen years old, they exist in a cognitive stage that
(18:16):
is very much.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Defined by kind of a concrete.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Understanding of the world, which is in kind of these
terms we lost and I'm a loser.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Right, They don't kind of go like.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
We lost, but I did my bed, But more often
they'll draw like a direct line between the outcome and
their own sense of self. That changes over time in
the way that the brain develops.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
But that stage of things doesn't start.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Until about thirteen and fourteen, and in that process will
last into adulthood. So when you are that guy who
like doubles down on enforcing consequence to children about their
competitive results and how they didn't perform perfectly, your leaning
in to the thing that that child already thinks. Right,
(19:04):
But again, you know, the more that we like professionalize
youth sport, and the more that we treat children like
adults through athletics. If we miss that part of things,
if we miss just like the cognitive development side of things,
we are missing opportunities to give them context that is
just going to keep them playing sports for longer.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
And I think that is a good thing. You know, like.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
We're gonna have kids in our program, They're gonna go
play college baseball. We're gonna have kids in our program,
they're gonna go to the pros. That's just a thing
that is going to happen. I am just as invested
and I am just as interested in that kid who
stops playing sports in high school and they don't play
in college, but they have a positive relationship with athletics
and sports and they pass that on to their children.
(19:51):
I think both of those things are just as valuable.
But the more that we go down this rabbit hole
of like the you know the seven, you you know, Lube,
Saint Patrick's Day, you know, Triple Sapphire Elite Invitational Championship,
We're missing that aspect of things. We're reinforcing the kids
(20:12):
that there's like, hey man, there might be you know,
fifty teams in this bracket. So that's six hundred children.
Well guess what, there's twelve of those kids that gets
to feel okay about those participation, and everybody else should
feel like a loser. I know that you we should
keep this clean, but I don't need to tell you
how really jacked up that I think.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
That configuration of youth sports is.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
So what we do a drive line with the Academy
is basically everything possible to push back against stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
I love that man and the Jiffy Lube Sapphire Elite Invitational.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
I know I took out about ten words.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
I love that because you started laughing, like because you
look up some of these tournaments. That's exactly the Mickey
Mouse you know two step. You're like, what the every
other weekend there's just and it is what it is.
It's you know again, it's you know that money grab man,
it's that chase that whatever. But at the end of
the day, I love how you're putting you know, the
(21:08):
cognitive You're talking a lot about that, and we cover
a lot of the mental components and kids time their
self worth the sport. How much of a dangerous slippery
slope that is when we come back, Devin and I
discussed his coaching philosophy and why he utilizes data to
improve kids' skill development and engagement. As we go into break,
I wanted to share another update with you from our
(21:29):
friends at Team Snap. As most people involved in youth
sports know, running a tournament can be often a stressful
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(21:49):
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Speaker 4 (22:04):
To see how Team Snap Tournaments.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
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your programs, head to teamsnap dot com today and register
for the webinar how to run a tournament and diversify
your revenue streams. On September twenty seventh, one pm Eastern
eleven am Mountain Time. Where we left off, Devin and
(22:28):
I were about to talk about the importance of developing
kids in a safe and structured environment that also keeps
them engaged and motivated. What I'm fascinated with even more
I don't want to say even more so, but equally,
And it gets talked about a lot with drive Line
and the work you guys do is you know, the
physical development. But something that you've always talked about is
about moving fast. It's about moving with explosiveness. I mean,
(22:51):
a lot of the things that I've talked to you
about in the past.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
You know, translate to like every sport.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
You know.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
I've watched some of the videos you guys, but I'm
sure their curtailed to you know, baseball specific in many ways,
but a lot of these explosive movements and such that
you guys are doing in your facility really could translate
to any sport. And that's kind of why I really
admire Like, you know, and you talk about the video
game thing, the measuring I know, you know, analytics and
data at times from some people gets a bad rep
(23:18):
but I just I just.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
Don't see that. It keeps kids engaged.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
There's so much benefit to it, and and it's it's
a way to measure things. And more importantly, it's not
going anywhere. Technology is not going anywhere. So correct, how
how do you see the evolution because it's not just baseball,
it's like every sport where data is being used. And
how do you see that with the physical development? Have
(23:42):
you seen tons of like examples within the academy and
in the program where you've seen these kids like maybe
even go on to different sports, but where this explosive
movements and body control things that are learning from you guys,
has really helped them evolve into just overall better athletes.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah. So the first thing I would say is, like, our.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Perspective on this need for kind of again what you'd
probably call general athletic development, is informed by the data
that we've collected. This isn't a guess, these are just facts.
There are guys playing in the show in MLB right
now who if they wanted to, could be Olympic athletes
in like track and field sports.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
That's just a fact. You know. The thing they used
to say back in the day is like success leaves clues. Right.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Well, if you come in and you can like broad
jump your way pretty close to like the Olympic world record,
you know, doing it like your first or second time,
you're probably a pretty good athlete, and it's reasonable to
expect that your baseball skills are relatively good.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Now, they might not be perfect. You know, there's plenty
of guys who.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
You know, they might throw a buckle one and they
can't get the broad side of the barn, and that's
typically used as the reason to kind of demonize any
type of training that revolves around acknowledging that like moving
fast and force production is important.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
I think the fundamentally thing you need to keep in mind.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
There is that the reason that those guys get drafted
who can't hit the broadside of a barn is because
more Major League Baseball teams and even colleges are willing
to take a risk on one of those guys and
help to refine that skill set.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Then guys who are going.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
To like dot seventy eight, that is a fact, that
is the reality, and it's you know, if you if
you're kind of intentionally obtuse to the nature of our
game that way, then you're going to be that kid
who's like, I don't know why there are no scouts
that want to see you.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Know, they don't want no scouts that want to see
my son. I just need one coach to I just
need one coach to see him.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
And like, coaches are looking for players because coaches at
the collegiate level want to keep their jobs right, They're
not intentionally ignorant about any prospect out there.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
But if you are that.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Guy who's like seventy seven to seventy eight as a senior,
and you're a parent who your parent has spent thousands
and thousands of dollars sending you to showcase, well, guess what.
The reality that no one's paying attention to you, the
reality that you don't have a roster spot, much less
a scholarship, is because there are probably like three million
other guys just like you, Because you don't have a
(26:13):
skill that is in demand on the market. You have
a skill that is very similar to a crap ton
of other guys who have also been fundamentally ignorant about
the signal that college and Major League Baseball are sending
to high school athletes. I've got a kid who was
in our program for two, like two and a half years,
(26:35):
and then decided he wanted to stop playing baseball because
he was going to be like he was going to
focus on VMX riding.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
I don't know the first thing about VMX riding.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
The last BMX experience I had was like dragging the
rear tire of my VMX bike down my parents' driveway.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
But he was a savage.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Athlete when we had him, incredibly strong. He was like
ninety five ninety six mile an hour top top eggs
of velocity as like a fifteen year old. So when
I see him posting these clips on Instagram of him
just like tearing it up on VMX and he has
this phenomenal body awareness and spatial awareness and control, and
(27:19):
he has phenomenal force production, it's like, yeah, again, success
leaves clues.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
There was a.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Period of time where there were guys in the game
of baseball who you know, had a body type that
was very similar to like my USPS guy that time
is over all you need to do is like, you know,
google ar Nolda's Chapman biceps and see, like, dudes are
dudes for a reason. And my whole perspective on this
(27:47):
is just you know, again, children are inherently adaptable to
the stimulus that they're given. I'm sure that at a
certain point there is like a genetic threshold for that, right,
and everybody's going to throw a hundred. That's just the reality.
But I think we don't really even know how many
kids could run it up to eighty five eighty nine
(28:11):
healthily because we just we miss opportunities to develop this
stuff safely and progressively over a long period of time.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
You know, what I think is fascinating is like you
can make and I know this is a big point
of emphasis for you, d and you talk about you know,
I've heard you talk about how important it is to
have fun. And just like every other guest I have
who's certainly competed or coached at a high level, no
matter what the sport is or anything like, fun has
to be a part of it. And you know, I've
incorporated in, you know, with with coaching with young kids,
(28:42):
and I always try to competitive games, and you know,
baseball could be a very very boring sport at young ages.
You know how many times have you pulled up to
a park or whatever and you see a bunch of
kids standing around a field and like a coach throwing
batting practice to one kid and he's you know, poor
kids missing half of them, and there's just a bunch
of kids standing in the outfield or in the infield,
(29:04):
just standing around.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
I mean, it looks terrible.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
It's the absolute worst the work.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
But but you can run a practice with those same kids,
keep them highly engaged, moving from station to station, making
it competitive, doing different types of baseball movements and things
that are going to help them get better, you know,
skill specific wise, but also you know athletically, and these
kids are going to be engaged in having fun. Is
that something that you put into your practices at your
(29:29):
academy to incorporate like those stations, those competitive games at
every at all young ages.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah, I mean a million percent. Are you know?
Speaker 1 (29:37):
I said years ago what we wanted to develop with
skills to scale, You know, you want to develop a
set of skills that actually scale as the game changes
over time. And the mechanism that you deliver that is
just through games. So basically, anytime that we're training, we
are playing a game and we are counting points.
Speaker 4 (29:57):
Which is what kids want to do.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
It's it correct and and you know the secret sauce there,
right is.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
And this is something we talked about in our Skills
and Skill Practice book.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
I just finished the manuscript for a new training book
that's going to cover all of this stuff in detail
that ideally should be out, you know, by by January
of this coming year.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
They want to compete, like like.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
I mean, when we're talking about kids wanting to play games,
what they really want to do is they want to compete, right,
They want to know how good they are. The valuable
point about keeping score of these things is that the
moment that I can say, hey, you know, last week
the game was around the world and we're going to go,
you know, three rounds of three and you're trying to
(30:43):
go pulside, biddle appo, pulside middle appo, pulside middle appo,
and I'm going to give you a point for each
one of those ballotball outcomes that you produce. If you
go in in the first, you know, first time in
that environment and you get like one point, right, that's
not going to feel great because you got one out
of the nine available points. When we do that same
(31:04):
game environment a week from then and you get three.
Now we're talking about context and we're specifically talking about
context that it's designed to drive engagement in a child.
We are giving them some signal that they are getting
better at something that is valuable and the Mormon that
I can lean into that what I've just seen, again
in more than a decade of doing this, is that
(31:26):
the higher their interest and their focus and their engagement
in the entire activity becomes. And again consider that environment
versus kind of what's conventional about like hitting lessons for
a kid. You're going to come in and you're going
to pay seventy five dollars or one hundred and fifty
dollars an hour, and that instructor sometimes and I'm not
(31:47):
trying to demonize anybody that's given lessons, because I mean
I've done them, but typically the way that that lesson
mechanism works is like the outcome of it has to
be me going to the player and the parent with
like a laundry list of the things that they did wrong,
and then they come in the next session and maybe
I have a new laundry list of things that are
(32:08):
wrong right, and I want to continue to like highlight
their deficiencies because to a degree, it highlights the need
for you to continue to utilize my surfaces. And if
that entire thing exists in an ecosystem where we're never
answering very simple questions about like how hard did you
hit the ball on day one versus how hard did
you hit the ball on day fourteen, it just exists
(32:31):
in like this idiotic vacuum that again is intentionally ignorant
only because you know, baseball is a very old game,
and I say this is like a fat old guy myself.
It's coached and taught by old guys just like me,
and we're kind of a little bit resistant to the
signal that just like moving the bad fast is and
(32:53):
hitting the ball hard is good. You know, Like there
are a lot of people that had a lot of
different thoughts about the home run derby that just you know,
was last week or whatever, and you were talking about
going back to the format of only ten outs or
or whether we're just going to kind of do it
a rapid.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Fireway that it is right now. I kind of don't care.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
But I think the biggest thing that's kind of signaled
there is that like you have to hit the you
have to move the that fast to hit the ball hard.
That that's just that's just reality, you know, Like, Yeah,
I would love for every kid in my academy to
have the type of fine motor control and feel that
Greg Maddox had as an adult. That's an unlikely thing
(33:34):
that I'm ever going to be satisfied in having.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
So what can I do?
Speaker 1 (33:38):
I can help kids throw the ball hard in and
around the zone, because the better that they can do that,
the more that they take away decision making time for hitters,
and typically the better the results are going to be.
Are you going to still give up some barrels?
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Man, Like, yeah, everybody does. Greg Maddox did too. But
what I want to do is just be clear about
kind of like what is what are the elements of
good performance? And how can I develop them and a
kid in a safe and structured format that keeps them
engaged throughout that whole process.
Speaker 4 (34:08):
Devin, It's fascinating, It's true.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
And if you're not paying attention to I love how
gracefully you said the modern day baseball player does not
look like the USPS United States Postal Service worker that
they may once have looked like back in the forties, fifties, sixties,
and seventies. Because it's true and people don't want to
hear it. It's just the way that it is. And
(34:31):
bottom line is if things are done in a way
where kids are having fun, they're having joy and they
keep wanting to show back up and they're becoming the
best version of themselves in a physical way, which ultimately
will lead to them doing so in in a mental
way in a positive environment.
Speaker 4 (34:47):
Man, I love it. I love the energy.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
And of course, anytime you're trying to you mentioned the
game being old. I mean, you know I'm an old
head too. I'm turned forty four here soon. It's like,
you know, you're gonna get pushback, resistance for those who
like to oh it's a classic America's past time, it's like, dude,
you know what man? Like they said in Moneyball, Man,
it's like, what the hell is that the term? It's
like adapt or die, And that's the way it is
(35:10):
about in anything.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Man.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Kids change, People change, and they're supposed to change. And
if we stick in the past, then we're not evolving
and getting better ourselves as adults. So I can talk
to you all day long and we'll do it again,
But where can people find you connect with?
Speaker 4 (35:25):
You find your content?
Speaker 3 (35:26):
Now?
Speaker 4 (35:26):
You have the podcast, now the blog, where can they
connect with you?
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (35:30):
So the socials you can find me typically at Devin
Morgan DVN, M R G A N, or you can
find drive Line Youth. Now that we have the drive
Line Youth socials, I'm not as active on my social
I feel like anymore, but that also just might be
because I have too much work to do. So on socials,
you either either need Devin Morgan or just Drive Line Youth.
(35:52):
And we also have the drive Line Accademy podcast. We're
pretty good about releasing those new episodes about every every
week week and a half. Maybe it's myself and Jeremy Techtiel,
who's the assistant director with me at Driveline. Jeremy is
my brother. I love that dude. He is helping me
build this thing brick by brick and Jeremy, you know,
being able to bring him in is another kind of
(36:14):
administrator at the top end of our program has has
made us phenomenally better. I just can't I can't say
enough about his contribution. And Jeremy and I do the podcast.
We just kind of talked about, you know, some of
the good and bad and inane and frustrating things about
youth baseball on the drive Line Academy podcast, and I'm
really thankful to people that have been listening. Our listening
(36:36):
numbers are I think either at are kind of over
like fifty thousand now, so we've got that thing going.
So yeah, the podcast and the social stuff is probably
the best way to do it.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Like I said, I just finished the manuscript for our
new training book.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
The way that I'm approaching that is basically, you know,
Kyle Boody, who's founder of drive Line, wrote Hacking the
Knnetic Chain and Hacking the Knnectic Chain, you know, changed
my life, no bones about it, and he changed lives
of a bunch of different guys, and it really kind
of exists as one of the pillar foundations of dry lines.
Kind of approach to what we're trying to do and
(37:08):
the way that we think about it. You know, Kyle,
I think, in a sense, deleted tweets said years ago,
you know, consider the current version of yourself as basically
just a representation of what you've done, you know, the
general ideas like you are what you do, and you know,
years later, we had a guy named Casey Weathers.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Was training a drive Line.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Casey was a pitcher at Vanderbilt, was drafted, struggled with injuries,
came to us and actually got healthy and kind of
got back into baseball, and then after he finally retired,
did a famous speech at drive Line that I reiterate
to basically everyone that I have the opportunity to. There's
a video up on YouTube called Casey weathers How good
am I? And in that speech he says a very
(37:48):
very simple quote that I again changed my life.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Man, Like, hard work gives you honesty, you know, for anything.
Like you said, we just want these kids to get.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
The most out as possible, and if you work hard
in that endeavor, I think you have the ability to
reflect on it and be honest about the outcome. Again,
not all these kids are going to go to the show,
and that's okay. But I think that perspective on life
and personal development and achievement is something you could apply
to baseball. It's something you can apply to cooking, It's
something you can apply to your marriage. Like it really
(38:18):
kind of defines my life in the time that I've had,
you know, the pleasure of being able to work a
drive on and run our program. So yeah, you know,
either the socialism the podcast, or with the book coming out. Man,
we just want more people, i think, to engage themselves
on this different way about thinking about their children and
sports in baseball. Because I'm not going to be shy
(38:41):
about the fact that i think change is necessary. I
think the current trajectory where we're going is not great,
and I want to do everything in my power to
kind of shift that as possible. It's just that it's
the one thing in my life other than my wife
and my children, that I'm passionate about.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Devin Morgan, your passion is infectious. I'm grateful for you
coming on, and I love the work that you do
and I'm just so thankful.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
Man, this has been freaking awesome. Thanks for taking the time.
Let's share with us.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Bro anytime, anywhere. Brother, I'm here for you.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
That's Devin Morgan, director of Youth Baseball at Driveline. Thanks
for listening to the Reform Sports Podcast. If you've enjoyed
this episode, we would appreciate it if you took a
moment to rate and review our podcast. As we work
to grow our community of supporters and advocates for more
Reform sports content, please subscribe to our newsletter and blog
at Reformsports project dot com.
Speaker 4 (39:28):
You can also follow
Speaker 3 (39:29):
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