January 31, 2024 • 41 mins
Coach Othello “O.T.” Johnson is in his 13th season at the helm of the UNC Pembroke wrestling program, and his 18th season overall on the coaching staff of the Braves. Under his stewardship, more than 20 UNC Pembroke wrestlers have qualified for NCAA Championships while 26 wrestlers have been named to the National Wrestling Coaches Association All-Academic Team. A fellow sports parent and the founder of Johnson Athletic Camps, O.T. and Nick discuss his new role as a softball parent, the importance of letting others teach and coach your children, and his perspective on today’s college recruiting landscape.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Just understanding that is okay to not be pens all
is okay. Your kid will be fine if you trust
a person that you've enlisted.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
To coach your kid or teach your.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Kid, back up and let them do their job that
they've been hired to do.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
This is the Reform Sports Project, a podcast about restoring
healthy balance and perspective in all areas of sports through
education and advocacy. Hi, this is Nick Bonacor from the
Reform Sports Podcast. Today, I'm welcoming back coach O Fellow
Oten Johnson to the pod. Coach Johnson is in his
thirteenth season at the helm of the UNCU Pembrooke wrestling program.
(00:41):
He is also a sports parent and the founder of
Johnson Athletic Camps.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Ot and I.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Discuss his new role as a softball parent, the importance
of letting others teach and coach your children, and his
perspective on today's college recruiting landscape. My man, I mean
this one is near and dear to my heart. He
was a guest early on a couple years ago, right
when the pot went live. A lot has changed since then.
Now my sawn is wrestling for him in college. Turned
(01:06):
into a really good friend, just a great human being.
The head wrestling coach at the University of North Carolina
Pembrooke Othello, Ot Johnson, coach, thanks so much for hopping out,
man a man, appreciate.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
You, man, thanks for bringing back, you know, trying to
be one of the ogs to you know, give a
second invitation. I don't know why. I mean, obviously he's
had coach J. C. Hoyd on this joint. You have
dabble on here, you have Coach Murphy me. I don't
know what the heck. Maybe you just feeling sorry for
me to bring me back on. But hey, we're going
to make it happy.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Let's get it.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Listen.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Well, like I said, now my son's wrestling for you.
We've been through that whole process. But another thing that's
going on here in the last few years i've heard
from you is, I mean, obviously you're a parent, you're
a sportsman, but you've turned into like softball dad. Right,
you're a softball dad, you're a softball coach.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
And man, listen, I've got you know, I've been on the.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Baseball scene, but I've heard you know, I've been around
softball plenty, and I've talked to plenty of people involved.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
What does that look like, man?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
I mean, you and your wife both phenomenal athletes in
college and coaches yourselves, both of you. What's it like
being on the on the travel softball see as parents?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Man, I have seen some crazy parents. Man.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
You know, when you hear the term people living through
their kids, these freaking parents are literally living through their kids.
And Nick, I think one of the greatest thing that
happened to my wife and myself and our kids, our daughter,
the one that's currently on the travel scene, is the
fact that you know, we've both played at the highest level,
at least for us, you know, we've played at the
college level, and I think each and every day we
(02:38):
don't have to scratch an itch like some of these
parents feel like they need to, and they try to
live vicariously to their kids, you know, I think I
think that's one of the most alarming things in the
world now, not just with sports parents, but specifically as
we're speaking of sports parents, you know, is that they
feel like if their kid does well, you know, that
validates their parenting. And then it's the furthest thing from
(02:59):
the truth. So I watch it from within our team.
I watch it from within other teams. As you're walking
out of the stadium from these tournaments, you hear parents
just digging in on their their daughters, you know, And honestly, Nick, somebody,
these parents, I don't know if they care if their
kids team win or not. Sometimes they just want to
make sure that they can get a good picture of
(03:19):
their kid in their uniform, whether it's a live plan
or if they're just them on the field. For them,
that's the validation that they get, is that click, and
you know, they want.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
To better get that bad for their kids. So when
their kid hits the ball, they have enough pictures.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
And people are crazy, man, They're able to fabricate their stats.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
You know, it's it's you softball.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So how many people on Facebook are going to go
back and validate what truly happened? You know, honestly, no
one really cares. So no one cares to go back
and validates those things. And so some people are willing
to fabricate the truth and make up things just so
they can get the clicks on their buddies.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
And you know, so when they go to the wine
and cheese crowd, you know.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Oh my god, Susie's doing so softball aren't just propriud
of her. Some people, that's all they want to hear.
And that's sick. It is sick, is disgusting. And what
we've noticed is when these girls don't make the games
that their moms or dads think that you'd.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Be making, they quit.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
You know, I'm not gonna name any names, but I've
seen one of the most disgusting things that I've ever seen.
A kid that was playing on our team, you know,
or some time back, didn't have the game that her
parents wanted to have. So at the end of the game,
I'll coach again. Mind you, this guy has no child
on the team. We were able to convince him to
start this team back up, so you know, our daughter,
(04:34):
you know, self speaking, can have someone outside of us
to coach her.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So this man is doing it for free. Him and
his wife take time out.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Of their busy lives, from their jobs and his business
to do this for free because he loves the sport
of softball. Obviously, his daughter went on to play at
Division one softball and this man is giving a post
tournament speech and he gets interrupted by the parent, and
this parent yells er her daughter to come on this
g you know, we all like we're dumbfound They're like,
(05:02):
what's going on? And the daughter doesn't move, and the
parents yells at the daughter, da da da da da,
get over here now. And so one, you're embarrassed for
the daughter because now this parent, you know, it's so
within themselves because their daughter didn't get us much playing
time in a certain position. And now you put the
coach in the craziest spot. You put your daughter in
the craziest pot. Because now all of our friends at
(05:24):
thirteen years old are wondering like, is this parent crazy?
What's the parent?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
What's crazy? At the time, So, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Just watching that scenario, let me know, my goodness, man,
I'm so happy that I play college sports, and I'm
so happy that I see every day in my program
what some of these kids have to go through because
their parents want them to be so good, so much
in the sport, and then forget the real life lessons
that their.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Kids are supposed to getting out of athletics. And I
think we're in for it.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
I think it's going to get worse, unfortunately, and I
think people only see the small piece of it because
they're only watching the Power Files on TV. And they
don't see what it goes down in the trenches. So
it has a softball parent as wild.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
So I want to unpack that a little bit because
a lot of stuff you said I can certainly relate
to from coaching standpoint.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
From I've been very fortunate.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
I haven't had that crazy of a situation, but I've
had like you know, the circles at form over here,
and it's almost like rebellion, and then it's like these
clicks a parent and it's like it's like middle school again,
like oh.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
We're gonna do this, you know, we're gonna start this team,
and it's like, what is this all about?
Speaker 3 (06:28):
So you mentioned, you know, being a college athlete was
an advantage, and I argue that as well. If you
played at a certain level, it kind of allows you
to take.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
A step back.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
And I love how you said you don't have to
scratch that itch, right you you feel fulfilled in your
own athletic career. It's not about you anymore. But how
do you separate You're in a unique position because you
are a high level college coach. I mean, you coach
one of the best Division two wrestling programs in the
country right now currently ranked in the top ten nationally.
So how do you compartmentalize the coaching aspect and the
(06:59):
sports parent aspect Because you obviously want to see your
daughter succeed and you're a competitor, do you have to
because I almost feel like at times we need to
give people examples on how to pause. I feel like
the word pause is so critical because listen, I'll get hyped.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Up watching my kids compete.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
I can get excited for them, but I feel like
I'm at a point where I can take a step
back and just be the fan. So how do you
become the fan versus the coaches enemy or get over
about like where does the line get.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Crossed with over zealous? Like crazy? Sports pair? Do you think?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Well, as I say all those things as a competitor,
you know, as a competitor, I understand that the end
goal is to win. I'm not discounting that that we
want to win. So in the process of trying to win,
we have to make sure the girls practice the right way,
they show up when they're supposed to show up. And
(07:48):
you know, my daughter has missed one practice for a
travel ball team. One and that one practice you missed
was because she wanted to attend the ceremony for a
long time staying head coach at UNCP coach, we just
missed ceremony at UNCP.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
So she's missed one practice for a draftball team won.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
And so it's never been about her winning or her
getting this shine. There's always been about you know, instilling
these you know, these behaviors, these.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Life characteristics in her.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Hey, when you sign up for a thing, you got
to show up for that thing, and the result is irrelevant.
The fact of the matter is, you know, we're going
to instill in you that, Hey, you say you want
to be a softball player on this team, You're going
to show up. You know, we've left family vacations early
to get back to be there for her practices. I
think some of the issues with some people is that,
you know, they only want to play when it's time
(08:34):
to play games.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
You know, the games are one before you ever step
out there. And I think one of the issues that.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Some of these parents struggle with is that, you know,
they sign up for something, they're over zealous with how
cool it sounds, but they don't understand the commitment that
it's going to take to get their daughter to practice
every single time, you know, and and and some.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
People might think we're crazy, but Nick comal, I know
what an injury is. I know when the girl is
hurt or one guy is hurt.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
You know, some people freak out when their daughter her
InKo the wrong way. Well, at the end of the day,
you know, she's gonna get up, should be fine. I
don't need to run out there. My wife doesn't run
out there. Coach Johnny most time, we don't need him
to run out there.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Once.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
She has to learn how to compete with herself mentally
and too, she has to learn that, hey, if this
was the championship game of the you know, the big
Cuth World.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Series, is she gonna pull herself out?
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Is she gonna want to be involved? And I think
some people misunderstand the life lesson that the sports will teach,
you know, before the competition never starts. So for us,
we've been there, we understand that. And honestly, you know,
my wife coaches high school ball, varsity basketball, and varsity volleyball,
so we've seen crazy parents on both the college level
and in the high school level. We've dealt with crazy parents,
(09:42):
and so I think that puts us in a better position,
you know, unfortunately and fortunately to be able to deal
with you know, crazy when we see it, but also
to pull ourselves back and say, hey, this is her moment,
This is their moment. And the funny thing about that is,
you know, we have a younger dog, her that we
allow to play.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
But you know, she had.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
An offer to go play on a travel ball eight
you team, a travel eight.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
You team one.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
My wife and I made a joke about it. Ruby
got her first offer.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
To play on a travel eight you team.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
What the heck?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Come on, what's the seven year old going to go
travel to play for? Like?
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Come on, One, we're all over the place right now
as parents with our own responsibility as coaches.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
And two, we have an older daughter that never did
any of these things.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
She never became serious about sports, you know, to a
point where we say, okay, what she does want to
do it killed by eleven years old. So why the
heck will we even bother putting our seven year old
in that position to get that serious about it that,
you know, because you know, Murphy's watching and he's getting
ready to come get.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Her at eight years old, you know, you know, or
the coach.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
At UNCP I'll use that since it's closer to home.
Is watching her at eight years old so she can
come and a recruiter come on, you know. So I
think being in the trenches as athletes and being the
trenches as coaches kind of you know, put out of
things in pon for us and then say this, I
ain't gonna lie to save this a whole hell of
a lot of money and and a whole lot of
family time. So I'm not sure if I completely answer
(11:08):
your question, but and I think I think being in
the transit has really helped us, and both of us
being in the transites as college athlete.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
And I give my wife most of the credit.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
I mean, she was a dog man, she played basketball
and ran track and cross country in college.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
So she doesn't either.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
She doesn't need to distract that she's doing it not
because she wants to be around athletics and she wants
to see growth in the female sport and as a
female helping young girls. She gets validation from that, not
not to see nor you know, be the best on
our team. Wish the goal is to be the best
and to work to be the best.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
But if she's not, you.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Know, it doesn't It doesn't change anything. It doesn't change
what kind of love we have for her.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
I was thinking about this earlier because you know, you
and I came together through the sport of wrestling, obviously,
and I had never I was thinking about this recently
because my second oldest son, Tyler, is you know, he's
in the senior year of high school and he's going
to be you know, done wrestling here and another, you know,
another little bit of time as season winds down, and
(12:02):
you know, you and I, you know, Willie Hillton shout
out slide Fox wrestling cover boy. We always chat about
kind of the history, and as said lately, I've been
getting a little.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Nostalgic about it.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
But you know, one of the things that I think
attracted me so much the sport of wrestling, And I
would argue that every sports parents should do this if
they have some sort of background in a particular sport.
Up until Tyler and Avery got involved with wrestling, my
kids were only involved in sports that I had played.
I was coaching football and I played high school football.
I was coaching baseball, I played collegiate a little professional baseball.
(12:34):
I played basketball rec basketball, was coaching basketball.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
They were playing that.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
So up until wrestling, I think I introduced them to lacrosse,
but they really weren't, you know, into it that much.
But up until wrestling, and I fell in love with
the sport because it was the first time that I
could be a parent.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
And not know what the hell I was taught.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
I had nothing to offer from from a standpoint of
like advice. You know, I know what effort is, I
know what competing is, I know what listening to the
coaches and shout out to Willy again, like first time
he went into SLI Fox Wrestling Club and you've probably.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
Heard this before.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Tyler and Avery are there, and I think Tyler was
one or two of them. They were talking or whatever,
and I think I yelled. I didn't yell, but I
was like, hey, guys, pay attention. And Willy just looked
over to me and said, Nick, I got it. And
I was like, all right, I'm done. Like I don't
got to ever say a word right then and there,
I knew I was in the right club. But from
that experience, it allowed me to step back and I
(13:31):
was like, I can't offer advice if I wanted to
about technique or how they can get better and I
was like, Man, I think this is.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
The way it's supposed to be.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
I'm just supposed to sit back and like enjoy watching
them compete. They say ignorance is bliss, and I think
that was the first time that I really, you know,
experienced that in it unlocked this like different perspective where
it almost took a lot of pressure off.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Like I don't call it reform sports project for any reason.
I used to be. I got caught up in those weeds.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
So I almost feel like if parents can get involved
with something they don't know and just enjoy the moment,
it can really open things up. And I don't know
what your thoughts are on that, but I think it
was good.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Man. I have an amazing story al B PJ. Smith.
You know the goat.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
So when my wife and I we're in grad school.
Coach Smith legend UNCP Athletics, D two.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Hall of Famer and Wrestling Hall of Famer.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
He taught hundreds of people, by the thousands of people,
He's taught thousands of people swim lessons at u NCP.
And when we got there, you know, one of the
ways that coach knew he could get back to his
wrestler former wrestler to people involved in the sport and
just student athletes in general, students that wanted to work
in grind was he would hire.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Students in the summer to do swim school, and so
he hired us.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
We freaking both went and got our swimming certification to
be swim instructors, and we did the swim school for
a couple of years. And then when Nora became of
age to take the swim lessons, you know, we kind
of like dropped her off because she did the first class,
you know, and so we put her down there and
she's getting ready to do the swimming and she's falling
her eyes out, yell, and I get up and try
(15:02):
to go over there and try to help her out,
and Coach smiths it, get out of here. What do
you think because you work here, you're gonna get special treatment.
And I'm like, oh my god, a light bulb went off, Nick,
And I'm like.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
The dude's freaking right. This is not your domain, Like
is your child.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
If you want to teach swimming, go teach another class.
Let your kid beat, you know, let your kids suffer.
There's nothing wrong with that. And from there on, my
wife and I would get up to the pool, we'll
drop her off, we'll walk downstairs, we'll go walk around
the Jones building, maybe grab basketball and just go shoot around.
She'll beat me up in a quick game of a
one on one, and then an hour later we'll come
back up there.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
And you know, we did that for the first.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Couple of times, and she will cry when we leave,
and then we get back she'll be fine. And so
just understanding that is okay to not be hands on
is okay.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Your kid will be fine if you.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Trust the person that you've enlisted to coach your kid
or teach your kid, back up and let them do
their job that they've been to do. You know, it
is about your kids learning to be around other people,
trust other people, and learn from other people.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
You're not going to be the only teacher in your
kid's life. And we do that all the.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Time for teachers in school. We'll freaking drop our kids
off in the morning and leave them for them near
eight hours.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
Best time of the day, by the way. Oh my god,
I love it, you know.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
So, then what the heck do you feel like?
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Noah as athletes for more athletes or people that watch YouTube,
and when I hated to throw a softball.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
What kind of validation do I have that I have.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
To go get in the coach's face to say, hey, Nora,
do this this?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
No, shut up, Otiq, go sit down over there. If
I'm helping out. And I think it's been one of
the greatest thing. And sometimes White gets mad at me, like,
don't have in the safe. No, I don't have any the.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Same And you remember this, Nick, when Nora got involved
a couple of years ago and I was asking you some.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Cues, I'm like, Okay, what is not my thing?
Speaker 1 (16:47):
So I'm gonna And we've been super lucky, man. I mean,
Coach Brady has been awesome. His fan has been awesome,
to the girls on the Wildcast team, you know, to
have someone again, he doesn't have a dog in a fight.
The only dog he has in a fight is he
loves the sport and he wants to see this for
Gornall County.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
You know, it's just to back up and just let
it be. And I think again that that that that interaction.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
With Coach Smith and nor in swim lessons was one
I think one of the best lessons I learned as
a young parent. And that lesson is gone with me
a long time. And you know, and I think you
had Oh my god, who was that you had?
Speaker 2 (17:19):
On the pod? A Lexi? He talked. He talked about
people paying for their kids to play things.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
You know, and I'll be the first one to say,
we pay for private lessons for our daughter to pitch.
We pay for private basketball lesson for her to get
ball hand on the skills because it gets her away.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
From us and it gets her listening to someone else.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
And you can attest to this. When you coach your kid,
it's like you got double homes on your head. They
don't listen to you, and you know, they think you're crazy.
That's same exact lesson you're trying to teach them. Someone
else that's not Mom or Dad starts teaching them that lesson.
They're all ears, they're focused, and they do it. And
you got to make a decision. Are you investing in
your kid enough to lest someone else teach them.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
The same thing you're teaching them, or are you such
a great coach?
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Nick Saban, Bill Belichick, you know, Marvin Lewis and Tony
Dungee and all those people that you're not going to
step off and let someone else do the work for
you that you believe that not to do. My wife
is a great basketball player, but you know, she understands
and I understand that. Hey. One, that gives us time
to just sit back and relax and watch and see
how she responds to someone else. And two, it gives
(18:25):
her a chance and it gives them a chance to
absorb teaching and coaching from someone else. So I think
that's one of the biggest advantage of not knowing the
sport that well.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
It is the fact that you can step back, let.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Someone else coach your kid, let someone else educate your kid,
just like we do in education, you know, for us,
for people that are not teachers, you let other people
educate your kid on a daily basis, five days a week.
So why not do the same one you have an
athlete that you think is aspiring to be the best,
and I think people miss that point. And so you
have all these daddy ball coaches that you know, just
got off the couch and you know, watch a couple
(18:58):
of YouTube videos and they want going to you know,
be the next you know Dabbo and coach Tsinski and
World Williams. So I think people missed the boat there.
There's only one jobs, man, there's only one KALs Anderson.
You know, those guys are where they are and they've
been there for how long they've been there because you know,
they understand athletes, they understand coach, and they understand more
(19:19):
than the single legs and double legs.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
They understand how to motivate people. And that's why they've
lasted so long their in their domain.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
When we return, OT and I discussed recruiting and the
transfer portal. Before we go to break, I've got another
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(19:50):
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Speaker 4 (19:57):
To engage on and off the field.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
The combination of the two industry leading consumer tech platforms
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(20:22):
free demo to learn how team snap can help your organization.
This season, where we left off, Ot and I were
about to discuss how NIL has impacted sports at the
D two level and the current college recruiting landscape. I
want to dig in a little bit with you because
(20:43):
first and foremost, you are coaching at the you know,
the highest level of Division two, and there's been a
lot that's changed since last time you came on the pod.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
You know, NIL was talked about.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Of course, the transfer porter wasn't played, but name, image, likeness,
NIL has become I mean mainstream. I mean it seems
like every say, the landscape of college athletics and recruiting
and everything has just changed so much. You know, at
the quote unquote Power five level, which I'm sure there'll
be a new name for that here soon. It's it's
pro sports, you know, particularly football and basketball. But what
(21:15):
does the landscape look like? I guess from you know,
the way all the shifting has taken place from a
recruiting standpoint, how has that impacted the Division two level,
And if you could just kind of give us your
perspective on.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
The way the college landscape.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Is right now.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Well, I mean, I think we'll brag on you and
Avery and just your family in general. I think I
think no matter where this goes, including for Power five,
there's nothing that's ever going.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
To replace the relationship aspect of.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Recruiting, you know. And I like to credit all the
guys that I've had helped me out with coaching, assistant
coaches that have gone on to now currently run their
own programs.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
And just you know, and my.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Mentors that I've had in past, coach coach.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Gibbs, that that really helped me understand.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
You know, if you want to be a great recruiter,
you know, being a great recruiter makes you a great coach.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
You're going to recruit the right kids, and you're gonna
have to build relationships, you know. And in some days
I wonder, sometimes, man, am I.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Putting too much into this whereas taken away from my
own family? And yes, that's that's the sacrifice I have
to make. And I think watching my daughter being able
to do what she does. You know, she's heard me
on phone calls.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
You know, sometimes she has to acquire her sister down.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Hey, be quiet, data is on the phone with a recruit.
Nothing replaces that relationship that you build with an athlete.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
They have to trust you.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
You know a lot of these coaches that just run
up to a kid when they see him at a
big tournament and do well, and all of a sudden
start making offers to them. You know, we're all motivated
in some way for more faction by money, right, so when.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Someone comes diggling and dingling an offer in.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Front of you, a X amount of dollars, you forget.
Sometimes you know, hey, wait a minute, there's another part
of this that I need to remember. You know, my
recruiting process is bigger than just how much money someone
can offer me. And so when you talk about recruiting,
we always make sure with the assessment of COVID time
where people can visit campus.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
We try to get every single kid on our campus,
no matter how long we talk to them, no matter
how great the relationship is.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
You need to be in the physical with us, around
us in our domain to feel that connection, you know,
so to speak, and if you don't do that for me.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
You know, it's really hard for me to feel comfortable.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Bring you on our roster, bring you in our program,
bring you into our campus, bring you into unc prembroke.
You know, we don't want everyone at UNCP. We don't
need everyone at UNCP. It takes a special person to
be a brave wrestler. You have to be brave tough.
You can start off as brave, but eventually gonna have
to become tough. And we need to find out does
this person have the potential to be brave tough, you know?
(23:43):
And can they stay with us for four or five
years if it takes that long for them as lost
to eligibility, we're rare shirting, and so I think a
lot of times there are a lot of dudes and
girls out there that miss that boat on the relationship
aspect of the recruiting process. And when they do that,
it's when you see the max exodus in these programs.
With the portal and another thing, Nick, just about ninety
(24:03):
nine percent of the kids I've recruited, I've made sure
when they made a decision, and in most cases not
us because our board is usually sixty to seventy guys big,
we're not going to get all those guys. I make
sure I keep a good relationship with those kids and
congratulate them wherever they go, because again, like you said,
we're talking about the porter right that portal is jumping
right now, and in about two and a half months
(24:24):
from a wrestling standpoint, it's going to be jumping even more.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
And I can't wait. I love the Porter.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
I think it's probably one of the greatest thing because
the coaches that tell the kid, well, good luck, we're
going to pinion and with rest of you, or you
made the worst decision of your career, you no longer
have an end to that kid because you didn't respect
their decision. It's their decision, so you should respect their
decision where they want to go, where they feel comfortable
(24:48):
at the time, you know, and if something changed in
their life. Is if a coach leaves and they decide, okay,
well I came here for this coach reality check.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Most kids go to most schools for their.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Coach, unless you're going to a specific school that has
a specific major, specific program that in no matter way,
if that school they didn't have your sport, you're going
to go there. Anyways, most kids are going to most
program because they respect to coach, they have a great
relationship with the coach, and you know, the school happened.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
To have a sport they want.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
So I think the portal is a blessing in disguise
if issues properly.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
And I also think it's a curse, you know.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
I think I want to point out because Avery went
through the recruiting process with you, and he committed to
you and UNCP the day after the state.
Speaker 4 (25:30):
Tournament his junior year.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
So I mean from a Division two standpoint in today's there,
some would say he committed early, you know what I mean,
even though I think a junior committing is not early.
He knew he wanted to go, He had the relationship
with you, the rapport, and you know, checked all the
boxes like we would have known if something would to
pop off from other schools later on down the road.
Even if he hadn't committed, they didn't put the time
(25:54):
in what he was kind of I don't want to say,
a diamond in the rough, but still kind of making
his name for himself. It would have been really easy
through when the state title as a senior for you know.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
Oh yeah, yeah, come here, come here.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
But you had already put the legwork in as early
as possible, and that was an easy decision for him.
But what I thought was was the most interesting piece
of the whole, you know, recruiting process, you know, going
on his official visit, and then of course you sit down.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
In the room.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
Was you know when you offered Avery, there was no pressure,
right And I've heard stories, actually heard you and I
texted about it, and we're not going to say who
it is, or coaches like put a time stamp on
offers to kids like, hey, you need to let me
know asap. With you, it was, Hey, we'd love to
have you come here. Here's the package that we're offering you.
Now there's incentives if you do well your senior year,
(26:38):
and this can go up, YadA, YadA, YadA. But go
visit other schools, take your time, go see other places.
Like I remember you saying like, we want to make sure.
I need to make sure that when you come here,
you want to come here. There was no sense of
urgency on your end. You let them know you wanted them,
but at the same time, make sure when you commit here,
it's where you want to be. So go see everywhere,
Go visit everywhere, go do it. And I think that
(27:00):
that's so critical, But that also takes a tremendous amount
of confidence because as a program, like you said, you
got to be able to tell people, no, you can't
welcome everybody, like you have to be selective. But it
seems like today it's people just want to jump on
the quickest offer. Are you ever at a point where
you're like, God, if we don't put a time stamp
on this kid, do you ever have the fear of
missing out?
Speaker 4 (27:20):
Like if I don't? Okay, So how do you manage that?
Speaker 1 (27:24):
To answer that question, yes, but I also go back to, hey,
our philosophy here, it takes a special person to.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Believe in what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
And honestly, I'll give everybody the trick here. This is
the game that our cointer parts play on us. They
don't want the kids they're recruiting that we're recruiting to
come on our campus because they know when they come
in our campus, they're like, holy smokes, this is a
freaking paradise you guys have going in at uncp U
NC paradise.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Let's get it. So you know, you got to remember,
now you talking.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
About seventeen eighteen year old kids that are making, in
my opinion, that the biggest decision of a young adult life.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
So they need to get it right, you know, they
need to get it right. And if I'm putting.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Pressure on them, you know, giving them seven days, giving
them ten days, whatever it may be, when push come
to shove and they're in the trenches, they might remember that.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Oh my god, I remember when coach pushed pressure on
me and I making decision. You know, I need to
know now if you're going to.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Come here, you know, and that doesn't sit where with kids,
and it doesn't sit where with their parents, you know, no.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Matter what you say. You know, So when we encourage
kids to.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Go take visits, I understand, and we've lost kids to
that because we give them free reign to you.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Know, shop themselves around, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
And so that has come across my mind numerous times,
especially if it's one of our guys hiring our boards,
you know, especially early in the process. You know, with Avery,
you know, I have pictures of Avery when he was
in you know, the fourth grade, fifth grade, or whatever
it may be.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
So with him, I was comfortable with him. I was
confident you.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Know, he wrestled at a club with a UNCP wrestling
All American alumni, So I knew everything about Avery that
I needed to know to know that, hey, he's going
to be a fit here and he's going to enjoy
here because we have the right group of guys in place.
And I think having that confident in myself as a coach,
as a man, you know, and knowing that I can't
replace you and Amy, but I'm gonna be the best
(29:06):
representation of.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
You guys in your absence. Why Avery is here for
four or five years, whatever it may be.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Lets me know that, hey, when he makes that decision,
there's gonna be no second guessing and that other coaches
can't confidently say that. And it doesn't hurt that I've
been here for, you know, seventeen years either. So I
think a lot of parents get that comfortability knowing that
that kid is not gonna go somewherehere the coach is
going to be jumping ship every other year to find
the next best thing, you know, And I think that's
one of the other things that's lost. And that's why
(29:30):
the transfer board, like we talked about, is so hot,
and you know, you get over twenty five hundred kids
in it every year, you know, because there's no stability
in college coaching, regardless of division. You know, a lot
of people are jumping ship to go to the next
hot thing, And so I put that peace.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Of mind in parents' minds. I put that piece of
mind in kids mind.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
You know, the kids may not be thinking it, but
I'm gonna cruit the parents just unless I'm recruiting the kids.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
I was definitely I must as far as parents go out.
If I wasn't like top one or two on the board,
I'd be pissed off right now.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
I mean, you're definitely up there.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
You know, you're you're you're one point five and you
fighting for that other half to get the number one.
So I'm just gonna throw that out there.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
But you know, at the end of the day, Nick, I.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Do have that fear that I'm gonna lose one of
my top guys because you know, there are people out
there that don't do it right, you know, and and
the reason why they're not successful is because they don't
do it right. You know, you're gonna have any people
that are gonna have success for a year or two,
and they're gonna fall off right. But at the same time,
if you look at our track record, you know, one
we're recruiting our guys the right way. We're bringing in
the right guys, and two we're got to a point
(30:31):
now where we're graduating our guys on a consistent basis.
Our guys that make it to year two and three,
you know, they're graduating and they're going to getting great jobs,
and they're reaching back out to me and asking.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Should I leave this job for this job? You know,
here's here's what they're offering.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
And knowing that I've had that kind of impact on them,
US CPS had that kind of impact to them for
them to reach back out to I'm a mater and
ask the college wrestling coach about career decisions, let me
know we get the right thing by them. And these
are not guys that were world leaders. These are guys
that were just programmed guys, you know, back us pos.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Starters and guys that may not have ever even started.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
For US are reaching back guy and asking the PUS about, Hey, coach,
I have this opportunity. What do you think that right there,
in my opinion, is the biggest championships. Knowing that I
made an impact on the guy that much that he's
willing to call and ask my opinion about.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
That, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
And so when we started our USCP Wrestling Alumni group
me where all these guys can talk and chop it up,
and we have almost ninety guys in there, even tho
old dudes that don't know much about technology.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
That lets me know, Hey, we're doing the right things.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
And this is where you we want to get you
at the end of your career is to be a
part of this fraternity, you know, so you can mix
it up with guys that were that were here in
the eighties and nineties and early two thousand.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
And guys guys like that. You know, guys, guys want
to be a part of the fraternity.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
And that's why we're not afraid to tell a guy, hey,
here's an offer. You know, this is where we feel
you are, and if things change from a performance standpoint,
academic standpoint.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
We're willing to up it. You know.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
But go shop yourself around, Go check out other schools,
go see what's out there. So when you're done, he
decided to be a brave You're no, there's nothing out
there in the back of your mind that you're married
to the right place, and.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
You can you can enjoy this decision and walk around
here with your head up high and compete, you know,
stress free.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
You know, Avery's having a phenomenal freshman year, you know,
really good year, and we're very proud of him. But
I can't tell how many conversations Amy and I have
had where we're like, man, he's at the right plat
And it's not because of how you know, it's not
because he's starting as a true freshman. It's not because
he's having some success. It's because, you know, those little
conversations like we know when he came home for the
(32:31):
for the winner, you know, we try to you know,
we don't talk to him that much. When he's there,
he'll reach out, you know, or whatever.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
We'll check out how's it going. But we got five
other kids here, you know. I mean, not that we're
I'm thinking about.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
But he's eighteen years old and he needs to figure
stuff out and he's adjusting really well. But it's like,
we know you are genuinely looking out for his best
interests as a human being. And even he said when
I picked him up for Thanksgiving and we're driving home
and you know I'm having those conversations with him, how
do you feel you know, do you like? And He's like, man,
I know he loves me, Like I know he cares
(33:02):
about me. He's like, it's so obvious how much Ot
cares about me as a person. Like the wrestling is
like a back burner thing. And I know for him, like,
you know, could he potentially wrestle at the Division one level?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Maybe?
Speaker 4 (33:14):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Maybe?
Speaker 3 (33:15):
But I think with him, and I think in particular
as a freshman, I think he would strugg I think
some kids don't understand, like the jump it is from
high school to collegiate athletics, and if you're especially in that.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
I don't even understand it.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
But especially in the sport of wrestling where I play
college baseball, the commitment level from a wrestling standpoint, it's
just a different It's a different level of discipline, a physicality,
and I think that that grind if you're not having
the opportunity to compete, like perform, like even the opportunity,
I think it can shed a lot of kids away
from this.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
Man, I don't want to do this anymore.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
So I think finding the right fit from a sport
like wrestling is even more magnified, you know, to go
where you belong to where you can have the most impact.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
That's just my perspective. But anyway, I want to just
say we.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Amy and I my wife are grateful that Avery found
you and he's in the right We feel extremely confident
and comfortable that he's at not only the right fit,
but with the right coach and the right staff and
the right teammates. So we're very grateful for that. As
we wrap up, coach the sports parents want to hear it. Man,
You've kind of shed light on a lot of things,
but like you know, I always want to try to
end with some sort of tidbit. You know, you're someone
(34:21):
who's doing this every day. What's a piece of advice
in a minute or two that can help these parents
whose kids do want to be college athletes, you know,
who do want to get seen, who do want to
get recognized? How should they go about it? What are
some pointers that you can give them?
Speaker 1 (34:34):
I mean, honestly, being in the trenches for damn here
two decades now, man, is you know I've I've been
super grateful.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
It's helped me and my wife as parents to you know,
ask those questions.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
When is it too early to ask the question to
your GC yourself playing college athletics, you know, And we
were having a conversation all I remember when they happened,
I think was during their softball season.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Our door was like, yeah, I'm want to play I
want to play college ball.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
And I told them my wife dad, and she was like,
oh wow, really she does, you know, and she does
great or her if she doesn't, oh well, you know,
for me, one of the greatest things she's accomplished thus
far in fourteen years of living.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
She made a straight A honor roll this fall. Nice
and so right.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
There, that lets us know that she's she's putting herself
in the right place to be a college athlete.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
You know.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Unfortunately, I guess unfortunately, she's a female athlete and the
path two millions are not as fast as the male
athletes that are in baseball, basketball, and football. Right, So
when she plays her college sports, if she plays her.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
College sports, you know, she's going to have to do something.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Outside of that, just like these college wrestlers are going
to have to do something outside of college athletics. So
you know, just knowing that, you know, you have your
kid's best interest at howard, you know. And if your
kid does well in a particular sport, you know, congratulate them.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
But make this their journey, you know. And I think
sometimes people crap on camps. One. You need to get
your kid away from yourself. Take them to her camp,
especially when they're in high school, and leave them alone.
Let them go, let them.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Spend the night, let him be with someone else, Let
him be on a college campus or camp citing that's
away from you, so they can understand, hey, mom and
dad aren't here to coddle me, so to speak. And
if your kid comes back and they enjoyed it and
they don't text you or call you and say come
get me, that's the first step. And I think a
lot of parents do not have the confident to let
(36:25):
their kid go.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
There are hundreds, there are thousands of camps out there
now that you can send your kids too.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
If we can't have a camp at our school without
having a background check on all of our athletes. Even
though our athletes have to have some sort of background
check to be in school, they all have to have
a background check to even run out of camps.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
We have to have insurance, so letting your kid go
what is a three.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Four, five, seven day camp without you is paramount to
seeing if they're ready for the next.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Level, to see if they're ready to play college athletics.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
If you're willing to do that and your kid calls
back or come back and express their enjoyment of the camp,
I think.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
That's what the biggest step.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
And hey, stop asking for offers or start trying to
go out there and beg for offers. Unfortunately, there's only
so many no zions that are going to wow everyone
when he's high school.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
You know, you know, the Lebron James.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
I can't imagine if Lebron James are around when technology
is as vast as it is now, you know, not
everyone's going to get that sign or you know, offered
a gazillion offers from gazilion schools.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
The opportunity to play college athletics, regardless of the division,
is a privilege.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
And because your kid doesn't get offered by I don't
know whatever big school doesn't make you less of a parent.
Right now, I think people misunderstand that less than one
percent of high school kids are going to play college sports.
Now I said play college sports, I say get offers
from scholarship unfortunately, and I wish we had full scholarship
allowment at UNCP. I would say about sixty percent of
our guys or walk off and they come here knowing that, Hey,
(37:52):
I want to be a part of something bigger than myself.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
And it's okay for your kid.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
To not get an offer, and it's okay for your
kid not to go on an official visit that means
very little.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
That means very little. One of our best wrestlers in our.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
School history, Nick Daggett, came a one official visit, and
that was after he came on three unofficial visits on
his own dime. And I think that helped validate his
decision to be a brave and be a Division two wrestler,
which ultimately let him become a five time national qualifier,
four time All American, five time academic All.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
American because he chose the right school.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
And I think that's important for parents to understand, is
the right fit for your kid that's going to help
him grow, help her succeed academically, help her grow socially,
and who knows, they might enjoy it when they're there,
and you don't want to send the next kid from
their high school there and vouch for that place. And unfortunately,
not every kid is going to come to UNCP, and
I'm okay with that. You know, there are great Division two,
(38:46):
Division three NAI Division one schools out there. Not every
kids the Division one athlete, and parents need to be
a understanding of that and that there are great Division two,
Division three NAI teams out there for all sports where
kids can go and have a great experience. I have
a lot of success because ten twenty years from now,
someone's going to ask.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
You you play college sports. You're gonna say yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
They're gonna care zero about if there's Division one, Division
two or Division three, and parents need to understand there.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Are dogs out there.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
I'll be naive to think that Joe Seely or Bo
Bassett is coming to UNCP. Those guys are going to
be at the highest level because those guys are dogs.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
That's where they belong. They're different, that's just the reality, douition.
They're different. Yeah, they're different.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
And your kid is not getting the offer from Penn State,
Ohio State, NC State because he's not different.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
And that's okay. At the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
I think people need to realize that there are levels
to this and that's why those guys and girls get
the offer they get because they're built different.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Man. I love it.
Speaker 3 (39:44):
Just you know what one thing I always want to
make sure is people are coming on here. This is real, live,
firsthand insight and it's going to be unfiltered like it's true.
If you can't handle the truth, then don't ask the question,
don't listen. But at the end of the day, you
got a man right here, who's you know, doing at
the highest level Division two for years. Who's shooting it
straight with you?
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Man?
Speaker 3 (40:01):
Just find the right fit coach. Ot can't thank you enough,
my man, great friend, great coach. Grateful my son's wrestling
for going, Hey, going to Natti this year.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
You guys, Man, let's get it.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
We're gonna give them hell man, we're gonna We're gonna
push these guys. We've got a couple of months here
before we get to the dance and you know, we
still got some work to do. Obviously, ninth in the
country is awesome, but it's not the end goal. The
end goal is to get these guys growing as men
and ultimately.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
To you know, push ourselves a little further on the ranking.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
I guess a little lower on their ranking, but we're
super excited for the way our guys are growing as
a team, how much they love each other and you
know how much to back each other, and you know
how much they want to see such succeeds.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
So we're ready to make this last push here for
for our championship. Run O T.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
Johnson. I appreciate you coming on.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Dog, appreciate it, man, keep doing your thing. Everybody.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Make sure you guys go out there, support, subscribe, leave
a rating, and let's get the worst spread.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Nick is doing a great job.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
And uh, super proud of you, man, Super proud of
what you're doing, and super proud of being a part
of this. Looking forward to listening to pod and hearing
more and more successful big time come on here, and
you know, thanks you.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
For allowing me to be a part of these legends
that you're bringing on.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
Man, you're one of them. Man, I appreciate you. That's
coach Othello.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Ot Johnson, sportspirit and head wrestling coach at the University
of North Carolina, Pembrooke. Thanks for listening to the Reform
Sports podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode, we would appreciate
it if you took a moment to rate and review
our podcast. As we work to grow our community of
supporters and advocates for more reform sports content, please subscribe
to our newsletter and blog at Reformsports Project dot com.
(41:32):
You can also follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn.
Just understanding that is okay to not be pens all
is okay. Your kid will be fine if you trust
a person that you've enlisted.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
To coach your kid or teach your.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Kid, back up and let them do their job that
they've been hired to do.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
This is the Reform Sports Project, a podcast about restoring
healthy balance and perspective in all areas of sports through
education and advocacy. Hi, this is Nick Bonacor from the
Reform Sports Podcast. Today, I'm welcoming back coach O Fellow
Oten Johnson to the pod. Coach Johnson is in his
thirteenth season at the helm of the UNCU Pembrooke wrestling program.
(00:41):
He is also a sports parent and the founder of
Johnson Athletic Camps.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Ot and I.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Discuss his new role as a softball parent, the importance
of letting others teach and coach your children, and his
perspective on today's college recruiting landscape. My man, I mean
this one is near and dear to my heart. He
was a guest early on a couple years ago, right
when the pot went live. A lot has changed since then.
Now my sawn is wrestling for him in college. Turned
(01:06):
into a really good friend, just a great human being.
The head wrestling coach at the University of North Carolina
Pembrooke Othello, Ot Johnson, coach, thanks so much for hopping out,
man a man, appreciate.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
You, man, thanks for bringing back, you know, trying to
be one of the ogs to you know, give a
second invitation. I don't know why. I mean, obviously he's
had coach J. C. Hoyd on this joint. You have
dabble on here, you have Coach Murphy me. I don't
know what the heck. Maybe you just feeling sorry for
me to bring me back on. But hey, we're going
to make it happy.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Let's get it.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Listen.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Well, like I said, now my son's wrestling for you.
We've been through that whole process. But another thing that's
going on here in the last few years i've heard
from you is, I mean, obviously you're a parent, you're
a sportsman, but you've turned into like softball dad. Right,
you're a softball dad, you're a softball coach.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
And man, listen, I've got you know, I've been on the.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Baseball scene, but I've heard you know, I've been around
softball plenty, and I've talked to plenty of people involved.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
What does that look like, man?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
I mean, you and your wife both phenomenal athletes in
college and coaches yourselves, both of you. What's it like
being on the on the travel softball see as parents?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Man, I have seen some crazy parents. Man.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
You know, when you hear the term people living through
their kids, these freaking parents are literally living through their kids.
And Nick, I think one of the greatest thing that
happened to my wife and myself and our kids, our daughter,
the one that's currently on the travel scene, is the
fact that you know, we've both played at the highest level,
at least for us, you know, we've played at the
college level, and I think each and every day we
(02:38):
don't have to scratch an itch like some of these
parents feel like they need to, and they try to
live vicariously to their kids, you know, I think I
think that's one of the most alarming things in the
world now, not just with sports parents, but specifically as
we're speaking of sports parents, you know, is that they
feel like if their kid does well, you know, that
validates their parenting. And then it's the furthest thing from
(02:59):
the truth. So I watch it from within our team.
I watch it from within other teams. As you're walking
out of the stadium from these tournaments, you hear parents
just digging in on their their daughters, you know, And honestly, Nick, somebody,
these parents, I don't know if they care if their
kids team win or not. Sometimes they just want to
make sure that they can get a good picture of
(03:19):
their kid in their uniform, whether it's a live plan
or if they're just them on the field. For them,
that's the validation that they get, is that click, and
you know, they want.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
To better get that bad for their kids. So when
their kid hits the ball, they have enough pictures.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
And people are crazy, man, They're able to fabricate their stats.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
You know, it's it's you softball.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So how many people on Facebook are going to go
back and validate what truly happened? You know, honestly, no
one really cares. So no one cares to go back
and validates those things. And so some people are willing
to fabricate the truth and make up things just so
they can get the clicks on their buddies.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
And you know, so when they go to the wine
and cheese crowd, you know.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Oh my god, Susie's doing so softball aren't just propriud
of her. Some people, that's all they want to hear.
And that's sick. It is sick, is disgusting. And what
we've noticed is when these girls don't make the games
that their moms or dads think that you'd.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Be making, they quit.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
You know, I'm not gonna name any names, but I've
seen one of the most disgusting things that I've ever seen.
A kid that was playing on our team, you know,
or some time back, didn't have the game that her
parents wanted to have. So at the end of the game,
I'll coach again. Mind you, this guy has no child
on the team. We were able to convince him to
start this team back up, so you know, our daughter,
(04:34):
you know, self speaking, can have someone outside of us
to coach her.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So this man is doing it for free. Him and
his wife take time out.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Of their busy lives, from their jobs and his business
to do this for free because he loves the sport
of softball. Obviously, his daughter went on to play at
Division one softball and this man is giving a post
tournament speech and he gets interrupted by the parent, and
this parent yells er her daughter to come on this
g you know, we all like we're dumbfound They're like,
(05:02):
what's going on? And the daughter doesn't move, and the
parents yells at the daughter, da da da da da,
get over here now. And so one, you're embarrassed for
the daughter because now this parent, you know, it's so
within themselves because their daughter didn't get us much playing
time in a certain position. And now you put the
coach in the craziest spot. You put your daughter in
the craziest pot. Because now all of our friends at
(05:24):
thirteen years old are wondering like, is this parent crazy?
What's the parent?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
What's crazy? At the time, So, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Just watching that scenario, let me know, my goodness, man,
I'm so happy that I play college sports, and I'm
so happy that I see every day in my program
what some of these kids have to go through because
their parents want them to be so good, so much
in the sport, and then forget the real life lessons
that their.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Kids are supposed to getting out of athletics. And I
think we're in for it.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
I think it's going to get worse, unfortunately, and I
think people only see the small piece of it because
they're only watching the Power Files on TV. And they
don't see what it goes down in the trenches. So
it has a softball parent as wild.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
So I want to unpack that a little bit because
a lot of stuff you said I can certainly relate
to from coaching standpoint.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
From I've been very fortunate.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
I haven't had that crazy of a situation, but I've
had like you know, the circles at form over here,
and it's almost like rebellion, and then it's like these
clicks a parent and it's like it's like middle school again,
like oh.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
We're gonna do this, you know, we're gonna start this team,
and it's like, what is this all about?
Speaker 3 (06:28):
So you mentioned, you know, being a college athlete was
an advantage, and I argue that as well. If you
played at a certain level, it kind of allows you
to take.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
A step back.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
And I love how you said you don't have to
scratch that itch, right you you feel fulfilled in your
own athletic career. It's not about you anymore. But how
do you separate You're in a unique position because you
are a high level college coach. I mean, you coach
one of the best Division two wrestling programs in the
country right now currently ranked in the top ten nationally.
So how do you compartmentalize the coaching aspect and the
(06:59):
sports parent aspect Because you obviously want to see your
daughter succeed and you're a competitor, do you have to
because I almost feel like at times we need to
give people examples on how to pause. I feel like
the word pause is so critical because listen, I'll get hyped.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Up watching my kids compete.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
I can get excited for them, but I feel like
I'm at a point where I can take a step
back and just be the fan. So how do you
become the fan versus the coaches enemy or get over
about like where does the line get.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Crossed with over zealous? Like crazy? Sports pair? Do you think?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Well, as I say all those things as a competitor,
you know, as a competitor, I understand that the end
goal is to win. I'm not discounting that that we
want to win. So in the process of trying to win,
we have to make sure the girls practice the right way,
they show up when they're supposed to show up. And
(07:48):
you know, my daughter has missed one practice for a
travel ball team. One and that one practice you missed
was because she wanted to attend the ceremony for a
long time staying head coach at UNCP coach, we just
missed ceremony at UNCP.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
So she's missed one practice for a draftball team won.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
And so it's never been about her winning or her
getting this shine. There's always been about you know, instilling
these you know, these behaviors, these.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Life characteristics in her.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Hey, when you sign up for a thing, you got
to show up for that thing, and the result is irrelevant.
The fact of the matter is, you know, we're going
to instill in you that, Hey, you say you want
to be a softball player on this team, You're going
to show up. You know, we've left family vacations early
to get back to be there for her practices. I
think some of the issues with some people is that,
you know, they only want to play when it's time
(08:34):
to play games.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
You know, the games are one before you ever step
out there. And I think one of the issues that.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Some of these parents struggle with is that, you know,
they sign up for something, they're over zealous with how
cool it sounds, but they don't understand the commitment that
it's going to take to get their daughter to practice
every single time, you know, and and and some.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
People might think we're crazy, but Nick comal, I know
what an injury is. I know when the girl is
hurt or one guy is hurt.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
You know, some people freak out when their daughter her
InKo the wrong way. Well, at the end of the day,
you know, she's gonna get up, should be fine. I
don't need to run out there. My wife doesn't run
out there. Coach Johnny most time, we don't need him
to run out there.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Once.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
She has to learn how to compete with herself mentally
and too, she has to learn that, hey, if this
was the championship game of the you know, the big
Cuth World.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Series, is she gonna pull herself out?
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Is she gonna want to be involved? And I think
some people misunderstand the life lesson that the sports will teach,
you know, before the competition never starts. So for us,
we've been there, we understand that. And honestly, you know,
my wife coaches high school ball, varsity basketball, and varsity volleyball,
so we've seen crazy parents on both the college level
and in the high school level. We've dealt with crazy parents,
(09:42):
and so I think that puts us in a better position,
you know, unfortunately and fortunately to be able to deal
with you know, crazy when we see it, but also
to pull ourselves back and say, hey, this is her moment,
This is their moment. And the funny thing about that is,
you know, we have a younger dog, her that we
allow to play.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
But you know, she had.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
An offer to go play on a travel ball eight
you team, a travel eight.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
You team one.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
My wife and I made a joke about it. Ruby
got her first offer.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
To play on a travel eight you team.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
What the heck?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Come on, what's the seven year old going to go
travel to play for? Like?
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Come on, One, we're all over the place right now
as parents with our own responsibility as coaches.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
And two, we have an older daughter that never did
any of these things.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
She never became serious about sports, you know, to a
point where we say, okay, what she does want to
do it killed by eleven years old. So why the
heck will we even bother putting our seven year old
in that position to get that serious about it that,
you know, because you know, Murphy's watching and he's getting
ready to come get.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Her at eight years old, you know, you know, or
the coach.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
At UNCP I'll use that since it's closer to home.
Is watching her at eight years old so she can
come and a recruiter come on, you know. So I
think being in the trenches as athletes and being the
trenches as coaches kind of you know, put out of
things in pon for us and then say this, I
ain't gonna lie to save this a whole hell of
a lot of money and and a whole lot of
family time. So I'm not sure if I completely answer
(11:08):
your question, but and I think I think being in
the transit has really helped us, and both of us
being in the transites as college athlete.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
And I give my wife most of the credit.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
I mean, she was a dog man, she played basketball
and ran track and cross country in college.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
So she doesn't either.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
She doesn't need to distract that she's doing it not
because she wants to be around athletics and she wants
to see growth in the female sport and as a
female helping young girls. She gets validation from that, not
not to see nor you know, be the best on
our team. Wish the goal is to be the best
and to work to be the best.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
But if she's not, you.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Know, it doesn't It doesn't change anything. It doesn't change
what kind of love we have for her.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
I was thinking about this earlier because you know, you
and I came together through the sport of wrestling, obviously,
and I had never I was thinking about this recently
because my second oldest son, Tyler, is you know, he's
in the senior year of high school and he's going
to be you know, done wrestling here and another, you know,
another little bit of time as season winds down, and
(12:02):
you know, you and I, you know, Willie Hillton shout
out slide Fox wrestling cover boy. We always chat about
kind of the history, and as said lately, I've been
getting a little.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Nostalgic about it.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
But you know, one of the things that I think
attracted me so much the sport of wrestling, And I
would argue that every sports parents should do this if
they have some sort of background in a particular sport.
Up until Tyler and Avery got involved with wrestling, my
kids were only involved in sports that I had played.
I was coaching football and I played high school football.
I was coaching baseball, I played collegiate a little professional baseball.
(12:34):
I played basketball rec basketball, was coaching basketball.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
They were playing that.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
So up until wrestling, I think I introduced them to lacrosse,
but they really weren't, you know, into it that much.
But up until wrestling, and I fell in love with
the sport because it was the first time that I
could be a parent.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
And not know what the hell I was taught.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
I had nothing to offer from from a standpoint of
like advice. You know, I know what effort is, I
know what competing is, I know what listening to the
coaches and shout out to Willy again, like first time
he went into SLI Fox Wrestling Club and you've probably.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
Heard this before.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Tyler and Avery are there, and I think Tyler was
one or two of them. They were talking or whatever,
and I think I yelled. I didn't yell, but I
was like, hey, guys, pay attention. And Willy just looked
over to me and said, Nick, I got it. And
I was like, all right, I'm done. Like I don't
got to ever say a word right then and there,
I knew I was in the right club. But from
that experience, it allowed me to step back and I
(13:31):
was like, I can't offer advice if I wanted to
about technique or how they can get better and I
was like, Man, I think this is.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
The way it's supposed to be.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
I'm just supposed to sit back and like enjoy watching
them compete. They say ignorance is bliss, and I think
that was the first time that I really, you know,
experienced that in it unlocked this like different perspective where
it almost took a lot of pressure off.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Like I don't call it reform sports project for any reason.
I used to be. I got caught up in those weeds.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
So I almost feel like if parents can get involved
with something they don't know and just enjoy the moment,
it can really open things up. And I don't know
what your thoughts are on that, but I think it
was good.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Man. I have an amazing story al B PJ. Smith.
You know the goat.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
So when my wife and I we're in grad school.
Coach Smith legend UNCP Athletics, D two.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Hall of Famer and Wrestling Hall of Famer.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
He taught hundreds of people, by the thousands of people,
He's taught thousands of people swim lessons at u NCP.
And when we got there, you know, one of the
ways that coach knew he could get back to his
wrestler former wrestler to people involved in the sport and
just student athletes in general, students that wanted to work
in grind was he would hire.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Students in the summer to do swim school, and so
he hired us.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
We freaking both went and got our swimming certification to
be swim instructors, and we did the swim school for
a couple of years. And then when Nora became of
age to take the swim lessons, you know, we kind
of like dropped her off because she did the first class,
you know, and so we put her down there and
she's getting ready to do the swimming and she's falling
her eyes out, yell, and I get up and try
(15:02):
to go over there and try to help her out,
and Coach smiths it, get out of here. What do
you think because you work here, you're gonna get special treatment.
And I'm like, oh my god, a light bulb went off, Nick,
And I'm like.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
The dude's freaking right. This is not your domain, Like
is your child.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
If you want to teach swimming, go teach another class.
Let your kid beat, you know, let your kids suffer.
There's nothing wrong with that. And from there on, my
wife and I would get up to the pool, we'll
drop her off, we'll walk downstairs, we'll go walk around
the Jones building, maybe grab basketball and just go shoot around.
She'll beat me up in a quick game of a
one on one, and then an hour later we'll come
back up there.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
And you know, we did that for the first.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Couple of times, and she will cry when we leave,
and then we get back she'll be fine. And so
just understanding that is okay to not be hands on
is okay.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Your kid will be fine if you.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Trust the person that you've enlisted to coach your kid
or teach your kid, back up and let them do
their job that they've been to do. You know, it
is about your kids learning to be around other people,
trust other people, and learn from other people.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
You're not going to be the only teacher in your
kid's life. And we do that all the.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Time for teachers in school. We'll freaking drop our kids
off in the morning and leave them for them near
eight hours.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
Best time of the day, by the way. Oh my god,
I love it, you know.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
So, then what the heck do you feel like?
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Noah as athletes for more athletes or people that watch YouTube,
and when I hated to throw a softball.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
What kind of validation do I have that I have.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
To go get in the coach's face to say, hey, Nora,
do this this?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
No, shut up, Otiq, go sit down over there. If
I'm helping out. And I think it's been one of
the greatest thing. And sometimes White gets mad at me, like,
don't have in the safe. No, I don't have any the.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Same And you remember this, Nick, when Nora got involved
a couple of years ago and I was asking you some.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Cues, I'm like, Okay, what is not my thing?
Speaker 1 (16:47):
So I'm gonna And we've been super lucky, man. I mean,
Coach Brady has been awesome. His fan has been awesome,
to the girls on the Wildcast team, you know, to
have someone again, he doesn't have a dog in a fight.
The only dog he has in a fight is he
loves the sport and he wants to see this for
Gornall County.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
You know, it's just to back up and just let
it be. And I think again that that that that interaction.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
With Coach Smith and nor in swim lessons was one
I think one of the best lessons I learned as
a young parent. And that lesson is gone with me
a long time. And you know, and I think you
had Oh my god, who was that you had?
Speaker 2 (17:19):
On the pod? A Lexi? He talked. He talked about
people paying for their kids to play things.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
You know, and I'll be the first one to say,
we pay for private lessons for our daughter to pitch.
We pay for private basketball lesson for her to get
ball hand on the skills because it gets her away.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
From us and it gets her listening to someone else.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
And you can attest to this. When you coach your kid,
it's like you got double homes on your head. They
don't listen to you, and you know, they think you're crazy.
That's same exact lesson you're trying to teach them. Someone
else that's not Mom or Dad starts teaching them that lesson.
They're all ears, they're focused, and they do it. And
you got to make a decision. Are you investing in
your kid enough to lest someone else teach them.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
The same thing you're teaching them, or are you such
a great coach?
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Nick Saban, Bill Belichick, you know, Marvin Lewis and Tony
Dungee and all those people that you're not going to
step off and let someone else do the work for
you that you believe that not to do. My wife
is a great basketball player, but you know, she understands
and I understand that. Hey. One, that gives us time
to just sit back and relax and watch and see
how she responds to someone else. And two, it gives
(18:25):
her a chance and it gives them a chance to
absorb teaching and coaching from someone else. So I think
that's one of the biggest advantage of not knowing the
sport that well.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
It is the fact that you can step back, let.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Someone else coach your kid, let someone else educate your kid,
just like we do in education, you know, for us,
for people that are not teachers, you let other people
educate your kid on a daily basis, five days a week.
So why not do the same one you have an
athlete that you think is aspiring to be the best,
and I think people miss that point. And so you
have all these daddy ball coaches that you know, just
got off the couch and you know, watch a couple
(18:58):
of YouTube videos and they want going to you know,
be the next you know Dabbo and coach Tsinski and
World Williams. So I think people missed the boat there.
There's only one jobs, man, there's only one KALs Anderson.
You know, those guys are where they are and they've
been there for how long they've been there because you know,
they understand athletes, they understand coach, and they understand more
(19:19):
than the single legs and double legs.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
They understand how to motivate people. And that's why they've
lasted so long their in their domain.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
When we return, OT and I discussed recruiting and the
transfer portal. Before we go to break, I've got another
exciting announcement for you. Team Snap, the leading provider of
sports management software, has acquired Mojo. In addition to the
best in class sports management solutions used by more than
two million daily active users and nineteen thousand sports organizations,
Team Snap will now offer Mojo's award winning library of games, drills,
(19:50):
and session by session support for youth coaches, as well
as robust interactive multimedia tools including live streaming, for families
and fans.
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(20:22):
free demo to learn how team snap can help your organization.
This season, where we left off, Ot and I were
about to discuss how NIL has impacted sports at the
D two level and the current college recruiting landscape. I
want to dig in a little bit with you because
(20:43):
first and foremost, you are coaching at the you know,
the highest level of Division two, and there's been a
lot that's changed since last time you came on the pod.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
You know, NIL was talked about.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Of course, the transfer porter wasn't played, but name, image, likeness,
NIL has become I mean mainstream. I mean it seems
like every say, the landscape of college athletics and recruiting
and everything has just changed so much. You know, at
the quote unquote Power five level, which I'm sure there'll
be a new name for that here soon. It's it's
pro sports, you know, particularly football and basketball. But what
(21:15):
does the landscape look like? I guess from you know,
the way all the shifting has taken place from a
recruiting standpoint, how has that impacted the Division two level,
And if you could just kind of give us your
perspective on.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
The way the college landscape.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Is right now.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Well, I mean, I think we'll brag on you and
Avery and just your family in general. I think I
think no matter where this goes, including for Power five,
there's nothing that's ever going.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
To replace the relationship aspect of.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Recruiting, you know. And I like to credit all the
guys that I've had helped me out with coaching, assistant
coaches that have gone on to now currently run their
own programs.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
And just you know, and my.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Mentors that I've had in past, coach coach.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Gibbs, that that really helped me understand.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
You know, if you want to be a great recruiter,
you know, being a great recruiter makes you a great coach.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
You're going to recruit the right kids, and you're gonna
have to build relationships, you know. And in some days
I wonder, sometimes, man, am I.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Putting too much into this whereas taken away from my
own family? And yes, that's that's the sacrifice I have
to make. And I think watching my daughter being able
to do what she does. You know, she's heard me
on phone calls.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
You know, sometimes she has to acquire her sister down.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Hey, be quiet, data is on the phone with a recruit.
Nothing replaces that relationship that you build with an athlete.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
They have to trust you.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
You know a lot of these coaches that just run
up to a kid when they see him at a
big tournament and do well, and all of a sudden
start making offers to them. You know, we're all motivated
in some way for more faction by money, right, so when.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Someone comes diggling and dingling an offer in.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Front of you, a X amount of dollars, you forget.
Sometimes you know, hey, wait a minute, there's another part
of this that I need to remember. You know, my
recruiting process is bigger than just how much money someone
can offer me. And so when you talk about recruiting,
we always make sure with the assessment of COVID time
where people can visit campus.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
We try to get every single kid on our campus,
no matter how long we talk to them, no matter
how great the relationship is.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
You need to be in the physical with us, around
us in our domain to feel that connection, you know,
so to speak, and if you don't do that for me.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
You know, it's really hard for me to feel comfortable.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Bring you on our roster, bring you in our program,
bring you into our campus, bring you into unc prembroke.
You know, we don't want everyone at UNCP. We don't
need everyone at UNCP. It takes a special person to
be a brave wrestler. You have to be brave tough.
You can start off as brave, but eventually gonna have
to become tough. And we need to find out does
this person have the potential to be brave tough, you know?
(23:43):
And can they stay with us for four or five
years if it takes that long for them as lost
to eligibility, we're rare shirting, and so I think a
lot of times there are a lot of dudes and
girls out there that miss that boat on the relationship
aspect of the recruiting process. And when they do that,
it's when you see the max exodus in these programs.
With the portal and another thing, Nick, just about ninety
(24:03):
nine percent of the kids I've recruited, I've made sure
when they made a decision, and in most cases not
us because our board is usually sixty to seventy guys big,
we're not going to get all those guys. I make
sure I keep a good relationship with those kids and
congratulate them wherever they go, because again, like you said,
we're talking about the porter right that portal is jumping
right now, and in about two and a half months
(24:24):
from a wrestling standpoint, it's going to be jumping even more.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
And I can't wait. I love the Porter.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
I think it's probably one of the greatest thing because
the coaches that tell the kid, well, good luck, we're
going to pinion and with rest of you, or you
made the worst decision of your career, you no longer
have an end to that kid because you didn't respect
their decision. It's their decision, so you should respect their
decision where they want to go, where they feel comfortable
(24:48):
at the time, you know, and if something changed in
their life. Is if a coach leaves and they decide, okay,
well I came here for this coach reality check.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Most kids go to most schools for their.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Coach, unless you're going to a specific school that has
a specific major, specific program that in no matter way,
if that school they didn't have your sport, you're going
to go there. Anyways, most kids are going to most
program because they respect to coach, they have a great
relationship with the coach, and you know, the school happened.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
To have a sport they want.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
So I think the portal is a blessing in disguise
if issues properly.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
And I also think it's a curse, you know.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
I think I want to point out because Avery went
through the recruiting process with you, and he committed to
you and UNCP the day after the state.
Speaker 4 (25:30):
Tournament his junior year.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
So I mean from a Division two standpoint in today's there,
some would say he committed early, you know what I mean,
even though I think a junior committing is not early.
He knew he wanted to go, He had the relationship
with you, the rapport, and you know, checked all the
boxes like we would have known if something would to
pop off from other schools later on down the road.
Even if he hadn't committed, they didn't put the time
(25:54):
in what he was kind of I don't want to say,
a diamond in the rough, but still kind of making
his name for himself. It would have been really easy
through when the state title as a senior for you know.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
Oh yeah, yeah, come here, come here.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
But you had already put the legwork in as early
as possible, and that was an easy decision for him.
But what I thought was was the most interesting piece
of the whole, you know, recruiting process, you know, going
on his official visit, and then of course you sit down.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
In the room.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
Was you know when you offered Avery, there was no pressure,
right And I've heard stories, actually heard you and I
texted about it, and we're not going to say who
it is, or coaches like put a time stamp on
offers to kids like, hey, you need to let me
know asap. With you, it was, Hey, we'd love to
have you come here. Here's the package that we're offering you.
Now there's incentives if you do well your senior year,
(26:38):
and this can go up, YadA, YadA, YadA. But go
visit other schools, take your time, go see other places.
Like I remember you saying like, we want to make sure.
I need to make sure that when you come here,
you want to come here. There was no sense of
urgency on your end. You let them know you wanted them,
but at the same time, make sure when you commit here,
it's where you want to be. So go see everywhere,
Go visit everywhere, go do it. And I think that
(27:00):
that's so critical, But that also takes a tremendous amount
of confidence because as a program, like you said, you
got to be able to tell people, no, you can't
welcome everybody, like you have to be selective. But it
seems like today it's people just want to jump on
the quickest offer. Are you ever at a point where
you're like, God, if we don't put a time stamp
on this kid, do you ever have the fear of
missing out?
Speaker 4 (27:20):
Like if I don't? Okay, So how do you manage that?
Speaker 1 (27:24):
To answer that question, yes, but I also go back to, hey,
our philosophy here, it takes a special person to.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Believe in what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
And honestly, I'll give everybody the trick here. This is
the game that our cointer parts play on us. They
don't want the kids they're recruiting that we're recruiting to
come on our campus because they know when they come
in our campus, they're like, holy smokes, this is a
freaking paradise you guys have going in at uncp U
NC paradise.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Let's get it. So you know, you got to remember,
now you talking.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
About seventeen eighteen year old kids that are making, in
my opinion, that the biggest decision of a young adult life.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
So they need to get it right, you know, they
need to get it right. And if I'm putting.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Pressure on them, you know, giving them seven days, giving
them ten days, whatever it may be, when push come
to shove and they're in the trenches, they might remember that.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Oh my god, I remember when coach pushed pressure on
me and I making decision. You know, I need to
know now if you're going to.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Come here, you know, and that doesn't sit where with kids,
and it doesn't sit where with their parents, you know, no.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Matter what you say. You know, So when we encourage
kids to.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Go take visits, I understand, and we've lost kids to
that because we give them free reign to you.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Know, shop themselves around, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
And so that has come across my mind numerous times,
especially if it's one of our guys hiring our boards,
you know, especially early in the process. You know, with Avery,
you know, I have pictures of Avery when he was
in you know, the fourth grade, fifth grade, or whatever
it may be.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
So with him, I was comfortable with him. I was
confident you.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Know, he wrestled at a club with a UNCP wrestling
All American alumni, So I knew everything about Avery that
I needed to know to know that, hey, he's going
to be a fit here and he's going to enjoy
here because we have the right group of guys in place.
And I think having that confident in myself as a coach,
as a man, you know, and knowing that I can't
replace you and Amy, but I'm gonna be the best
(29:06):
representation of.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
You guys in your absence. Why Avery is here for
four or five years, whatever it may be.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Lets me know that, hey, when he makes that decision,
there's gonna be no second guessing and that other coaches
can't confidently say that. And it doesn't hurt that I've
been here for, you know, seventeen years either. So I
think a lot of parents get that comfortability knowing that
that kid is not gonna go somewherehere the coach is
going to be jumping ship every other year to find
the next best thing, you know, And I think that's
one of the other things that's lost. And that's why
(29:30):
the transfer board, like we talked about, is so hot,
and you know, you get over twenty five hundred kids
in it every year, you know, because there's no stability
in college coaching, regardless of division. You know, a lot
of people are jumping ship to go to the next
hot thing, And so I put that peace.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Of mind in parents' minds. I put that piece of
mind in kids mind.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
You know, the kids may not be thinking it, but
I'm gonna cruit the parents just unless I'm recruiting the kids.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
I was definitely I must as far as parents go out.
If I wasn't like top one or two on the board,
I'd be pissed off right now.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
I mean, you're definitely up there.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
You know, you're you're you're one point five and you
fighting for that other half to get the number one.
So I'm just gonna throw that out there.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
But you know, at the end of the day, Nick, I.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Do have that fear that I'm gonna lose one of
my top guys because you know, there are people out
there that don't do it right, you know, and and
the reason why they're not successful is because they don't
do it right. You know, you're gonna have any people
that are gonna have success for a year or two,
and they're gonna fall off right. But at the same time,
if you look at our track record, you know, one
we're recruiting our guys the right way. We're bringing in
the right guys, and two we're got to a point
(30:31):
now where we're graduating our guys on a consistent basis.
Our guys that make it to year two and three,
you know, they're graduating and they're going to getting great jobs,
and they're reaching back out to me and asking.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Should I leave this job for this job? You know,
here's here's what they're offering.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
And knowing that I've had that kind of impact on them,
US CPS had that kind of impact to them for
them to reach back out to I'm a mater and
ask the college wrestling coach about career decisions, let me
know we get the right thing by them. And these
are not guys that were world leaders. These are guys
that were just programmed guys, you know, back us pos.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Starters and guys that may not have ever even started.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
For US are reaching back guy and asking the PUS about, Hey, coach,
I have this opportunity. What do you think that right there,
in my opinion, is the biggest championships. Knowing that I
made an impact on the guy that much that he's
willing to call and ask my opinion about.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
That, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
And so when we started our USCP Wrestling Alumni group
me where all these guys can talk and chop it up,
and we have almost ninety guys in there, even tho
old dudes that don't know much about technology.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
That lets me know, Hey, we're doing the right things.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
And this is where you we want to get you
at the end of your career is to be a
part of this fraternity, you know, so you can mix
it up with guys that were that were here in
the eighties and nineties and early two thousand.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
And guys guys like that. You know, guys, guys want
to be a part of the fraternity.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
And that's why we're not afraid to tell a guy, hey,
here's an offer. You know, this is where we feel
you are, and if things change from a performance standpoint,
academic standpoint.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
We're willing to up it. You know.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
But go shop yourself around, Go check out other schools,
go see what's out there. So when you're done, he
decided to be a brave You're no, there's nothing out
there in the back of your mind that you're married
to the right place, and.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
You can you can enjoy this decision and walk around
here with your head up high and compete, you know,
stress free.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
You know, Avery's having a phenomenal freshman year, you know,
really good year, and we're very proud of him. But
I can't tell how many conversations Amy and I have
had where we're like, man, he's at the right plat
And it's not because of how you know, it's not
because he's starting as a true freshman. It's not because
he's having some success. It's because, you know, those little
conversations like we know when he came home for the
(32:31):
for the winner, you know, we try to you know,
we don't talk to him that much. When he's there,
he'll reach out, you know, or whatever.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
We'll check out how's it going. But we got five
other kids here, you know. I mean, not that we're
I'm thinking about.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
But he's eighteen years old and he needs to figure
stuff out and he's adjusting really well. But it's like,
we know you are genuinely looking out for his best
interests as a human being. And even he said when
I picked him up for Thanksgiving and we're driving home
and you know I'm having those conversations with him, how
do you feel you know, do you like? And He's like, man,
I know he loves me, Like I know he cares
(33:02):
about me. He's like, it's so obvious how much Ot
cares about me as a person. Like the wrestling is
like a back burner thing. And I know for him, like,
you know, could he potentially wrestle at the Division one level?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Maybe?
Speaker 4 (33:14):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Maybe?
Speaker 3 (33:15):
But I think with him, and I think in particular
as a freshman, I think he would strugg I think
some kids don't understand, like the jump it is from
high school to collegiate athletics, and if you're especially in that.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
I don't even understand it.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
But especially in the sport of wrestling where I play
college baseball, the commitment level from a wrestling standpoint, it's
just a different It's a different level of discipline, a physicality,
and I think that that grind if you're not having
the opportunity to compete, like perform, like even the opportunity,
I think it can shed a lot of kids away
from this.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
Man, I don't want to do this anymore.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
So I think finding the right fit from a sport
like wrestling is even more magnified, you know, to go
where you belong to where you can have the most impact.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
That's just my perspective. But anyway, I want to just
say we.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Amy and I my wife are grateful that Avery found
you and he's in the right We feel extremely confident
and comfortable that he's at not only the right fit,
but with the right coach and the right staff and
the right teammates. So we're very grateful for that. As
we wrap up, coach the sports parents want to hear it. Man,
You've kind of shed light on a lot of things,
but like you know, I always want to try to
end with some sort of tidbit. You know, you're someone
(34:21):
who's doing this every day. What's a piece of advice
in a minute or two that can help these parents
whose kids do want to be college athletes, you know,
who do want to get seen, who do want to
get recognized? How should they go about it? What are
some pointers that you can give them?
Speaker 1 (34:34):
I mean, honestly, being in the trenches for damn here
two decades now, man, is you know I've I've been
super grateful.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
It's helped me and my wife as parents to you know,
ask those questions.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
When is it too early to ask the question to
your GC yourself playing college athletics, you know, And we
were having a conversation all I remember when they happened,
I think was during their softball season.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Our door was like, yeah, I'm want to play I
want to play college ball.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
And I told them my wife dad, and she was like,
oh wow, really she does, you know, and she does
great or her if she doesn't, oh well, you know,
for me, one of the greatest things she's accomplished thus
far in fourteen years of living.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
She made a straight A honor roll this fall. Nice
and so right.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
There, that lets us know that she's she's putting herself
in the right place to be a college athlete.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
You know.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Unfortunately, I guess unfortunately, she's a female athlete and the
path two millions are not as fast as the male
athletes that are in baseball, basketball, and football. Right, So
when she plays her college sports, if she plays her.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
College sports, you know, she's going to have to do something.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Outside of that, just like these college wrestlers are going
to have to do something outside of college athletics. So
you know, just knowing that, you know, you have your
kid's best interest at howard, you know. And if your
kid does well in a particular sport, you know, congratulate them.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
But make this their journey, you know. And I think
sometimes people crap on camps. One. You need to get
your kid away from yourself. Take them to her camp,
especially when they're in high school, and leave them alone.
Let them go, let them.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Spend the night, let him be with someone else, Let
him be on a college campus or camp citing that's
away from you, so they can understand, hey, mom and
dad aren't here to coddle me, so to speak. And
if your kid comes back and they enjoyed it and
they don't text you or call you and say come
get me, that's the first step. And I think a
lot of parents do not have the confident to let
(36:25):
their kid go.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
There are hundreds, there are thousands of camps out there
now that you can send your kids too.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
If we can't have a camp at our school without
having a background check on all of our athletes. Even
though our athletes have to have some sort of background
check to be in school, they all have to have
a background check to even run out of camps.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
We have to have insurance, so letting your kid go
what is a three.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Four, five, seven day camp without you is paramount to
seeing if they're ready for the next.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Level, to see if they're ready to play college athletics.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
If you're willing to do that and your kid calls
back or come back and express their enjoyment of the camp,
I think.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
That's what the biggest step.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
And hey, stop asking for offers or start trying to
go out there and beg for offers. Unfortunately, there's only
so many no zions that are going to wow everyone
when he's high school.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
You know, you know, the Lebron James.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
I can't imagine if Lebron James are around when technology
is as vast as it is now, you know, not
everyone's going to get that sign or you know, offered
a gazillion offers from gazilion schools.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
The opportunity to play college athletics, regardless of the division,
is a privilege.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
And because your kid doesn't get offered by I don't
know whatever big school doesn't make you less of a parent.
Right now, I think people misunderstand that less than one
percent of high school kids are going to play college sports.
Now I said play college sports, I say get offers
from scholarship unfortunately, and I wish we had full scholarship
allowment at UNCP. I would say about sixty percent of
our guys or walk off and they come here knowing that, Hey,
(37:52):
I want to be a part of something bigger than myself.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
And it's okay for your kid.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
To not get an offer, and it's okay for your
kid not to go on an official visit that means
very little.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
That means very little. One of our best wrestlers in our.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
School history, Nick Daggett, came a one official visit, and
that was after he came on three unofficial visits on
his own dime. And I think that helped validate his
decision to be a brave and be a Division two wrestler,
which ultimately let him become a five time national qualifier,
four time All American, five time academic All.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
American because he chose the right school.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
And I think that's important for parents to understand, is
the right fit for your kid that's going to help
him grow, help her succeed academically, help her grow socially,
and who knows, they might enjoy it when they're there,
and you don't want to send the next kid from
their high school there and vouch for that place. And unfortunately,
not every kid is going to come to UNCP, and
I'm okay with that. You know, there are great Division two,
(38:46):
Division three NAI Division one schools out there. Not every
kids the Division one athlete, and parents need to be
a understanding of that and that there are great Division two,
Division three NAI teams out there for all sports where
kids can go and have a great experience. I have
a lot of success because ten twenty years from now,
someone's going to ask.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
You you play college sports. You're gonna say yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
They're gonna care zero about if there's Division one, Division
two or Division three, and parents need to understand there.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Are dogs out there.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
I'll be naive to think that Joe Seely or Bo
Bassett is coming to UNCP. Those guys are going to
be at the highest level because those guys are dogs.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
That's where they belong. They're different, that's just the reality, douition.
They're different. Yeah, they're different.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
And your kid is not getting the offer from Penn State,
Ohio State, NC State because he's not different.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
And that's okay. At the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
I think people need to realize that there are levels
to this and that's why those guys and girls get
the offer they get because they're built different.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Man. I love it.
Speaker 3 (39:44):
Just you know what one thing I always want to
make sure is people are coming on here. This is real, live,
firsthand insight and it's going to be unfiltered like it's true.
If you can't handle the truth, then don't ask the question,
don't listen. But at the end of the day, you
got a man right here, who's you know, doing at
the highest level Division two for years. Who's shooting it
straight with you?
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Man?
Speaker 3 (40:01):
Just find the right fit coach. Ot can't thank you enough,
my man, great friend, great coach. Grateful my son's wrestling
for going, Hey, going to Natti this year.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
You guys, Man, let's get it.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
We're gonna give them hell man, we're gonna We're gonna
push these guys. We've got a couple of months here
before we get to the dance and you know, we
still got some work to do. Obviously, ninth in the
country is awesome, but it's not the end goal. The
end goal is to get these guys growing as men
and ultimately.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
To you know, push ourselves a little further on the ranking.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
I guess a little lower on their ranking, but we're
super excited for the way our guys are growing as
a team, how much they love each other and you
know how much to back each other, and you know
how much they want to see such succeeds.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
So we're ready to make this last push here for
for our championship. Run O T.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
Johnson. I appreciate you coming on.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Dog, appreciate it, man, keep doing your thing. Everybody.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Make sure you guys go out there, support, subscribe, leave
a rating, and let's get the worst spread.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Nick is doing a great job.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
And uh, super proud of you, man, Super proud of
what you're doing, and super proud of being a part
of this. Looking forward to listening to pod and hearing
more and more successful big time come on here, and
you know, thanks you.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
For allowing me to be a part of these legends
that you're bringing on.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
Man, you're one of them. Man, I appreciate you. That's
coach Othello.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Ot Johnson, sportspirit and head wrestling coach at the University
of North Carolina, Pembrooke. Thanks for listening to the Reform
Sports podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode, we would appreciate
it if you took a moment to rate and review
our podcast. As we work to grow our community of
supporters and advocates for more reform sports content, please subscribe
to our newsletter and blog at Reformsports Project dot com.
(41:32):
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