February 14, 2024 • 25 mins
Kyle Wagner is a teacher, coach, sports parent, author, and above all, a student advocate. A graduate of Wake Forest University where he also played baseball, Kyle has coached players of all ages, from grade school through college, including more than 40 student-athletes who went on to play collegiately as well as multiple first-round draft picks. He’s the author of “How the RiverCats Won: Lessons on Relationships and Competition,” as well as “Green Light Hitting: From the Backyards to the Big Leagues.” Founder of GoWags Baseball, Kyle joins Nick to discuss his belief in student advocacy, his skepticism to define a person by any one metric, and the three things that create a fear-based mindset in athletes.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
We get so wrapped up in early success and we
want to applaud it, we want to elevate it, and
then we question why parents chase them. They chase it
because we hold it in the highest esteem. And if
we really want to play the long game, if we
really want to grow our athletes and we want to
give them skills and develop them, sometimes we have to
really challenge ourselves as to why is it that we
(00:24):
celebrate this early success.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
This is the Reform Sports Project, a podcast about restoring
healthy balance and perspective in all areas of sports through
education and advocacy. Hi, this is Nick Bonacor from the
Reform Sports Podcast. My guest today is Kyle Wagner, teacher, coach,
founder of Go Wags Baseball, author and sports parent. A
former Wake Forest baseball player, Kyle is coach players of
(00:49):
all ages from grade school through college, including forty Division
one athletes and three first round draft picks. He's the
author of How the Rivercats Won, lessons on relationships and competition,
as well as green Light hitting from the backyards to
the big leagues. Kyle and I discussed his belief in
student advocacy, his skepticism to define a person by one
(01:09):
metric and the three things that create a fear based
mindset and athletes. I have another phenomenal guest. I've been
following this dude for a few years. Few years. We've
had a couple of conversations, some good interaction on Twitter
in particular now known as X twenty twenty four. But man,
I'm super pumped to have him. He is very forward
(01:30):
thinking and I love it.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Man.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
He calls himself a student advocate. He's a teacher, he's
a coach. He's a former absolute stud baseball player, a father,
sports parent, all the above. My man, Kyle Wagner, coach Wax,
thanks so much for hopping on man.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Oh, it's an honor. I'm privilegit. I'm looking forward to Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
And here's where I want to start with you, Man.
I love your content. I think you would have been
my favorite teacher in high school based off of all
the stuff I see you say. You call yourself a
student advocate. You put out a recent tweet that I
thought was very interesting, and I actually had the experience
with a couple of professors like this in college. A
student was asking you, why are you giving us the
(02:08):
questions to the exam you know before the exam, and
your response on the tweet was, well, because I'd rather
you know the information than me punished for not knowing it.
What is that about? What does it mean for you
to be a student advocate? And why the hell are
you not concerned with grades? Why do you think grades
are not a reflection of a kid's intellect?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Oh boy, yeah, you've been following me to know that
those are touchy subjects for me.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
I just I'm skeptical of anyone.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Metric to define a person. And it's not just true
in school, it's true everywhere. I mean with respect to baseball,
everyone knows that, you know, batting average doesn't define an athlete,
and slugging or and earned run average. And I even
think that my body mass index would qualify me as obese, right,
And so that's another one.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
And so the idea of the.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Great thing judging our students I'm really sensitive to. And
so you know, when when it comes down to it,
I would rather teach them than judge them. I have
done so much research on how that judgment component is flawed.
And ultimately, when we sit down and we make an
(03:18):
assessment of a student, I think we have to as
teachers recognize that we are flawed, we are biased, we
design the questions we judge them. I actually just spend
today talking about Daniel Pink's research when and he gets
into the idea of that, you know, the time of
(03:39):
day impacts how we assess people, and so that that
tweet that you're referencing, I just think, ultimately, with all
the hats that teachers, where the most important one is educator.
And educator means I need to give you information and
I'm constantly trying to communicate that that. I try to
extend the time horizon as long as so you know,
(04:01):
if I judge you on a Wednesday, but you forget
it on a Thursday, have I done my job? And
that's sort of playing the long game says ultimately, what
our job as an educator is is to inspire them
and educate them. And so that's why I share that
and I reflect on it often, and that's that's where
I've landed twenty five years into this profession. If I'm
(04:23):
if I'm going to choose between teaching and judging, I
will choose teaching.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Every time you just mentioned the long game, and I
know that's something obviously you're passionate about I know you're
an author as well. I talk about it a lot,
and you're someone who's doing it firsthand. Huge correlation between
coaching teaching. Jim Calhoun, who I had on obviously a legend,
and even Tim Corbin they talk about being teachers in sport. Right,
So how do we formulate considering our entire ecosystem, whether
(04:51):
it be academia or athletics, particularly at the youth level.
It's all based on performance, right. There's winners, there's losers,
there's scoreboards, there's acceptance into universities. I'm going through this
right now with my second oldest. So how do we
curtail that and when we're teaching or coaching keep the
perspective of, you know, the individual, while still trying to
(05:14):
help them. Tim Corbin send to me, everyone runs their
own race? Is that? Is that what we're talking about? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:20):
I did a I put a video out the other day.
I you know, I think there are three things that
really create a fear based mindset in athletes. It's comparisons,
It's outcomes, and it's deadlines. And you know, every coach
knows that, you know, you could get the greatest buy
in with your athletes and then the minute you post
a lineup, now now you've you've created a comparison, and
(05:43):
that that can be challenging, and immediately you've got this
judgment of running through the program. Uh, and it's undeniable,
like every coach eventually has to do it, and and
that can fracture culture if if you're not communicating that
message and how every.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Coach works his lineup.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
But what I would argue is I would say that
so often we create these deadlines and we get outcome
based when we don't have to create deadlines and become
outcome based.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
So, yeah, I'm a big fan. I have three hashtags
that I love it. It's run your race, no finish
lines and top with carry water, And those are the
three that I think that if I embrace and I
can communicate to my athletes, then we can live in
this love based reality. And I know that might sound
a little touchy feely, but I really think it's important.
(06:33):
And in twenty twenty four, it does feel like this
relationship model is at the forefront.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
It's pushing away this this.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Social Darwinism, survival of the fittest when it all costs.
I think it's it's pushing that aside, and I think
it's recognizing that this love based reality is the way
to go. So when I hear run your race, that
gets me fired up. No finish lines, right, lifelong learner
that idea. And then the chopboy cherry water is you know,
(07:03):
don't don't swallow the praise because you'll swallow the poison.
Try to interpret feedback as feedback. Keep it neutral, don't
get don't get wrapped up in wins and losses, just
keep just keep moving forward.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
You played ball at Wake Forest, Am I right about that?
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
All right, So so you played at an extremely high level.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Now that Wake Forest I played at wasn't the Wake
Forest that currently exists.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Like we we were middle of the road.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Acc we were good. I don't want to I don't
want to disparage my time there. But certainly Wake has
a vault into a power power program.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Sure, but obviously still acc you know the quote unquote
power five. You're playing at the highest level of collegiate
athletics at the time and still is. But what I'm
going with that is you have the perspective of you know,
a lot of sports parents, youth sports parents, will listen
to this. Obviously, coaches as well. You have the perspective
of coach, former high level athlete. You're a sports parent
as well, so so as a sports parent listened to this.
(07:56):
Who may not be in form right, they don't have
the same person, They didn't play in the acc they
don't coach, they don't teach, they haven't been in the
classroom for twenty five years. Hypothetically, I'm a thirty five
year old parent. My kids are just entering the youth
sports ecosystem where everything's based on performance. How do we
not get sucked into, you know, results driven with very
little you know, background to be able to formulate or
(08:18):
kind of go in there with any shield. Right, It's
almost like at times you could be going into a
war with no protection. It's I mean, I mean a
little you know, might bee being a little extreme, but
it could feel like that and a little overwhelming. How
do we prepare ourselves as young parents who may not
have the background, you know?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
One of the things I call into question a lot
is what you'll hear people say you got to compete
at everything you do. And although that might be true
on some levels, like when you become a parent. If
you engage in a competitive mindset, you're going to find
yourself fighting on the sidelines. You're going to find yourself,
you know, valuing wins more than they should. Because if
(08:55):
we're competing at everything we do, we need to win.
We need to win this this nine you baseball game.
And the one thing that I think often gets overlooked
is young athletes have young parents. And I think sometimes
as you age, you simply gain the perspective of maturity
and you look back and you realize that ultimately it
(09:15):
is about development, it is about growth, it is about
developing relationships. And having said all of that, I desperately
wanted to treat my young athletes as baseball players, and
I wanted to value the win.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
I wanted to teach them how to compete.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
I mean, it was important to me, but it was
important only if we did it with integrity. And I
think as a coach at that youth level, part of
integrity is making sure everyone has a role.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Like we're not a college team.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
It isn't like we have bench players that have to
support the starters, and that's not it. And so if
I were presenting to a group of young parents, I
would again, would I would try to emphasize the long game.
I would try to emphasize, you know, be an ambassad
for the sport. I would try to emphasize, you know,
root for your teammates, your son, your daughter's teammates, as
(10:07):
much as your root for your son and daughter. I
think when we get that narrow focus of mom and dad,
sometimes not only do we lose sight of the big picture,
but we focus our attention on our son and our daughter,
and then therein lies a lot of the root problem.
Is that that intensity, that competition that we have to
get ours and so yeah, it's it's it's retracting the lens,
(10:30):
it's that thirty thousand foot view.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Ultimately, we're trying to grow in the game, not win
a game. I guess that would be my message.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Do you feel like sports parents, and some rightfully so,
get a bad rap. Oftentimes, you know, you'll hear people,
even I for that matter, will say, Hey, we drop
our kids off at school. They're in the classroom. We're
not sitting there watching them take a test. You know,
We're not sitting there watching them get their lecture or
doing whatever assignment they have for the day. So why
do we feel like we need to impede upon a
(10:59):
coach during a practice. Why do we need to be
so engaged? Do you notice that the classroom has changed?
Is there a correlation? Are parents the same with the
classroom aspect of it their students in the classroom as
they are with sports, or do you notice a difference.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Well, obviously, I'm a teacher, I'm a coach, I'm a parent,
I'm all the above. I'm just going to speak from
my perspective, Like if I were on a practice, I
would invite anyone to stay and watch, like I just
enjoyed my time coaching athletes and practice planning that I
enjoyed having the parents there to watch and learn. Like
(11:36):
for me, I wanted my message to resonate behind closed doors.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
I wanted them to talk about what it was.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
We were learning, so they could, you know, they could reiterate
my message, they could emphasize my message. There are some
coaches that might perceive that as a parent imposing on them,
like this is my time and I want my message.
But I was always more inclusive in that way. I
would invite the parents for a postgame talk.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Again, I was talking at a youth level. I'm not talking
at at like a high school level or a college level.
But I'm not saying it couldn't be done.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
I just I'm a I'm a big fan of transparency
and I would share as much as possible. And I'm
even humble enough to recognize.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
I wrote a book How the River Cats Won, and
I had.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Some amazing parents, and you know, I talked in there
about being challenged by parents when my emotions got too hot,
and they were right, and I'd like to think that
they were capable of challenging me because I created an
environment that they were permitted to do so. So it
is absolutely a sticky wicket like it is absolutely one
(12:44):
of those those tough things to navigate, but I have
found that it is way easier when the guy in charge,
the head coach, is humble enough to say I don't
have all the answers, but I've I've got a ton
of experience, and I do a lot of reading and
I try to stay up to speed all the latest research.
But if you come across something that you think might
(13:05):
help the boys the girls, I'm all in. And so
I don't know if that directly answered it, but that's
just how I want to do agress.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
When we return, Kyle and I dive into coaching transparency.
Our friends at Team snap are back with another free
webinar Wednesday, February twenty first at one pm Eastern. See
how the latest updates to the registration system on Team
snap for Business will help you seamlessly collect payments and
documents and improve the members sign up experience. Team Snap
(13:33):
for businesses registration system is the best way to sign
up athletes for your up and coming season, and their
new features improve the sign up experience for administrators, coaches,
and families. During their upcoming webinar, you'll get an overview
of their registration system and learn how the latest updates
help you create teams even more seamlessly with updated rostering capabilities,
(13:53):
collect documents such as waivers with even more flexibility, improve
accessibility with offline payments for non baking family, and much more.
Sign up to learn more about how Team snaps evolving
platform meets your sports business needs, head to teamsnap dot
com and sign up today. Where we left off, Hyle
(14:18):
and I were about to discuss his approach to communicating
with his player's parents and the downsize of early praise.
So I know, in my coaching experience, I always have
like a pre practice first meeting, you know, like an
introductory thing. I give him a little bit of my background,
and this is what it could be seven years old,
you know, eight years old, nine years old. Just hey,
(14:38):
here's what we're gonna do. Here's what I think. Let's
and I try to set a boundary, you know, and
I even send a long email like, hey, these not
a long email, but I try to touch on something
these kids are seven or their rate, you know, like
let's keep that perspective. Do you set a boundary, like
do you try to set expectations? Because I totally agree
with your transparency. You know, the lines of communication have
to be open. I think a lot of times where
(14:59):
we get up parents is when there is no transparency.
It's not necessarily an over communication, but just kind of
set the expectation from the on sects. I'm sure a
lot of people will hear this and go, how do
I navigate that balance right? That juggling act.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Yeah, transparency doesn't mean all the time, I think, you know,
we have to account for the fact that anytime that
a parent and a coach engage in some sort of
communication in public, every every set of eyes is allowed.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
To interpret that communication however they want.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
And so what I was always hesitant of is that
that public communication in front of others that could could form.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Their opinion and one that I didn't want them to form.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
So I said, look, you know, your son, your daughter
might be struggling, and we might have some communication where
I'm gonna I'm gonna sit them down for two games
and just let them, you know, assess the situation from
a different angle.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
We're going to talk about that. But I still believe
in you.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
I'm still going to give you opportunities and then you
know you're you're gonna You're gonna find your way back
in the lineup. But if mom or dad come and
approach me at the end of the second game, uh,
and I had every intention of playing them the next game.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Now parents see that interaction.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
And then all of a sudden that that that child's
in the lineup, they're.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Free to go. Oh, this is how it works.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
If I confront coach, then I get in the lineup,
and I don't want that. So I make it clear
that look, I want transparency, but I would love to
do it away from the public arena. I want to
talk about your son and your son only your daughter,
and I'll tell you exactly where they fit. And I'm
doing my best to try to get him in opportunities
to develop. But if if if people see us talking
(16:41):
and then I play them like, I don't know if
that's fair to me. And so that was how I
always communicated that in the preseason.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Stuff to kind of shift gears a little bit, but
stay on the youth piece. This is something I think
you and I actually connected through this topic was the
early specialization, you know, multi sport thing, which I got
to tell you, man, in the last decade plus, but
really especially the last like you know, five to seven,
ten years. Man, it's hard. It's hard to you know
who's right or wrong. I don't know if there is
(17:09):
a right or wrong. Well I shouldn't say that. I
think there is a right or wrong. I think it's balanced.
But but it's becoming harder. It's becoming harder. Everything is
year round. I mean, I believe you're I think, are
you down in Georgia?
Speaker 3 (17:22):
I live in Pennsylvania. Is that is that what you're asking?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yeah? Okay, so you live in Yeah? Okay, so so
you live in a colder climate state. I'm in North Carolina,
so you can't play everything year round. You know, I
grew up in the Northeast and you couldn't play baseball
year round. And then it's also thirty years ago. But
you know, how do you as a coach? I mean,
for God's sakes, I saw a post the other day
(17:44):
where apparently there's and it's not just I saw the post,
but I've heard it. There's like travel coaches encouraging high
school kids not to play for their high school because
it's it's not good enough. They're not good enough, They're
going to get worse. It's like how do we juggle?
How do you juggle this? And more importantly, like how
did you navigate it with your It's because I know
you have kids that played at a very high level
as well.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
So one of the banners on our inside co egs
that was our training facility was competer developed at something
year round and those words were intentional computer develop right,
And so so often coaches with an agenda only ever
focused on developing, like we have to sharpen the blade,
we have to get better. Everyone's improved. They can't waste
any time. I think they missed that component of compete.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
You know, I would.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Tell any baseball player that you know, you're standing on
the foul line down one with two seconds to go.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
I mean, how could you not argue that that wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Be helpful from an athletic standpoint. And we actually have
a very specific case here in my backyard, Redland High School,
where we have a really high level baseball player, like
a high end draft status in the July draft coming.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Up, and yet he's a great basketball player.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
And the coaches got together and they designed a program
together for the athlete that allows him to.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Continue to lift, continue to hit, continue to do what
he needs to do. And yet he's still playing basketball.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
And I don't think that happens if you don't have
flexible coaches, you know. And I've actually gotten a little
debate I've shared I've shared his story with others, and
there are.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
Some basketball coaches that said, no.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
I wouldn't accommodate him in that way. And my response
would be, if you're not going to accommodate him, you're
probably going to lose him. And so we can't just
dump the burden on the athlete and say, hey, play.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
As much as possible.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
The coaches need to accept some responsibility too, and say, look,
the pressure is immense. It's immense for these athletes with
so many eyes on him in the social media world.
You know, what can we do to assist we can
be flexible? We can we can potentially say, hey, this
particular athlete might not have to show up for a
(19:54):
six am lift because he needs his sleep and he
doesn't want to lose the weight. And so those are
some concessions that I'm always I'm always impressed when a
coach shows some adaptability in that area. But yeah, it
is it is strange that that the travel world is
imposing on these communities in ways that we're losing our.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Structure a little bit. That's unfortunately. I hope it turns around.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
I think the more podcasts like this give it a
fighting chance.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Do you feel as though that I actually when I
had David Epstein on a couple of years ago, and
he kind of brought up the point it almost feels
like as a young parent you have to go rogue,
you know, against the system, because he knows all the data, right,
He's done the research, you know, with range, and he
knows you know, the value of you know versatility, and
you know sports sampling or just sampling in life, and
(20:45):
it's like you almost feel like you have to go rogue.
And now I am confident in my perspective as a
parent to be able to give my kids a broad
buffet or help them adapt their palette to different things
and let them find their path. But it almost that fomo. Man,
how do you navigate the fomo as a parent?
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Well, I mean your initial question to me about grades,
you know, it sort of stems from that, Like we
tend to elevate and reward people before the race is over.
I don't understand why we have to celebrate the A
on October eighteenth, Like why does that define someone? It's
a letter on their transcript and we can't remove it,
(21:25):
and an A is elevating them, it's raising them above
the sea. And then it speaks to the same point
you're bringing up here, is that you know, we get
so wrapped up in early success and we want to
applaud it, we want to elevate.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
It, we want to hold it to the highest level.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
And then we question why parents chase that, Well, they
chase it because we recognize it and we hold it
in the highest esteem, and if we really want to
play the long game, if we want to really want.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
To grow our athletes and we want to give.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Them skills and develop them, sometimes we have to really
challenge ourselves as to why is it that we celebrate
this early success. And you know, I've coached lots of
high level athletes and and some I was fortunate enough
to be first rounders, and you know, there there were some.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
That were elite at a very early age.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I was fortunate enough to coach Anthony Boltby and I
remember coaching him as a as a ten year old,
walked into the nurses office the next day at school,
I said, I just I just coached the.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Future Big leaguer And that played out. But then another.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
First rounder, Benny Montgomery from the the Rockies organization. He
didn't start on the varsity team as a as a freshman,
but you could see his potential. He was going to grow,
he was gonna get he's gonna get super strong, and
yet you know, there were lots of people that he's.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Passed along the way. It's this it's this.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Early praise that I think just gets people chasing their
own thing. So that that's again, that's that no finish
line mentality. It's like, why are we celebrating success when
excess is miles away?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Coach wags. I want people to connect with you. I
love what you do, I love your perspective. I think
you have tremendous insight that can help a lot of people.
Where can they find you on your platforms? I know
you're on ex Twitter, Where else can they find you?
Speaker 3 (23:14):
That's really it.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
I had an incident where an unfortunate incident where I
was hacked, and so I jumped off of Instagram and Facebook,
and I had all kinds of stuff out there.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
But it's it's X.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
And I mean, I've shared my green Land hitting book.
I'll share with anyone that's I can share that online
through X. But that's that's my primary resource that I use.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Just the X.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Where can people find your book?
Speaker 3 (23:40):
You can get it on Amazon.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
How the Rivercats Won. How the Rivercats Won was a
It was my model, my framework for developing not only athletes,
but you know, growing teams. A lot of a lot
of young coaches are curious about, you know, the cutting
process and how they try kids out and you know, shoot,
should we should we try to keep the same team
(24:02):
as we grow, and so I sat down and wrote
a book, How the Rivercats, one that's on Amazon, and
then the green Light Hitting book that I wrote in
twenty twelve.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
That thing got so darn expensive.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
I don't even suggest anyone buys the hard copy, although.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Some people do like it.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
You can get that on Blurb is actually the site
for that.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Kyle Wagner coach WAGS, thank you so much for coming on,
sharing your time, your perspective. We're going to run this
back again. I can't thank you enough.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Man.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
You're very welcome and I love that you invited me.
I appreciate the time.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
That's Kyle Wagner, teacher, coach, author and sportsparent. Thanks for
listening to the Reform Sports Podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode,
we would appreciate it if you took a moment to
rate and review our podcast. As we work to grow
our community of supporters and advocates for more reform sports content,
please subscribe to our newsletter and blog at Reformsports Project
(24:54):
dot com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram,
and LinkedIn.
We get so wrapped up in early success and we
want to applaud it, we want to elevate it, and
then we question why parents chase them. They chase it
because we hold it in the highest esteem. And if
we really want to play the long game, if we
really want to grow our athletes and we want to
give them skills and develop them, sometimes we have to
really challenge ourselves as to why is it that we
(00:24):
celebrate this early success.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
This is the Reform Sports Project, a podcast about restoring
healthy balance and perspective in all areas of sports through
education and advocacy. Hi, this is Nick Bonacor from the
Reform Sports Podcast. My guest today is Kyle Wagner, teacher, coach,
founder of Go Wags Baseball, author and sports parent. A
former Wake Forest baseball player, Kyle is coach players of
(00:49):
all ages from grade school through college, including forty Division
one athletes and three first round draft picks. He's the
author of How the Rivercats Won, lessons on relationships and competition,
as well as green Light hitting from the backyards to
the big leagues. Kyle and I discussed his belief in
student advocacy, his skepticism to define a person by one
(01:09):
metric and the three things that create a fear based
mindset and athletes. I have another phenomenal guest. I've been
following this dude for a few years. Few years. We've
had a couple of conversations, some good interaction on Twitter
in particular now known as X twenty twenty four. But man,
I'm super pumped to have him. He is very forward
(01:30):
thinking and I love it.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Man.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
He calls himself a student advocate. He's a teacher, he's
a coach. He's a former absolute stud baseball player, a father,
sports parent, all the above. My man, Kyle Wagner, coach Wax,
thanks so much for hopping on man.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Oh, it's an honor. I'm privilegit. I'm looking forward to Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
And here's where I want to start with you, Man.
I love your content. I think you would have been
my favorite teacher in high school based off of all
the stuff I see you say. You call yourself a
student advocate. You put out a recent tweet that I
thought was very interesting, and I actually had the experience
with a couple of professors like this in college. A
student was asking you, why are you giving us the
(02:08):
questions to the exam you know before the exam, and
your response on the tweet was, well, because I'd rather
you know the information than me punished for not knowing it.
What is that about? What does it mean for you
to be a student advocate? And why the hell are
you not concerned with grades? Why do you think grades
are not a reflection of a kid's intellect?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Oh boy, yeah, you've been following me to know that
those are touchy subjects for me.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
I just I'm skeptical of anyone.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Metric to define a person. And it's not just true
in school, it's true everywhere. I mean with respect to baseball,
everyone knows that, you know, batting average doesn't define an athlete,
and slugging or and earned run average. And I even
think that my body mass index would qualify me as obese, right,
And so that's another one.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
And so the idea of the.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Great thing judging our students I'm really sensitive to. And
so you know, when when it comes down to it,
I would rather teach them than judge them. I have
done so much research on how that judgment component is flawed.
And ultimately, when we sit down and we make an
(03:18):
assessment of a student, I think we have to as
teachers recognize that we are flawed, we are biased, we
design the questions we judge them. I actually just spend
today talking about Daniel Pink's research when and he gets
into the idea of that, you know, the time of
(03:39):
day impacts how we assess people, and so that that
tweet that you're referencing, I just think, ultimately, with all
the hats that teachers, where the most important one is educator.
And educator means I need to give you information and
I'm constantly trying to communicate that that. I try to
extend the time horizon as long as so you know,
(04:01):
if I judge you on a Wednesday, but you forget
it on a Thursday, have I done my job? And
that's sort of playing the long game says ultimately, what
our job as an educator is is to inspire them
and educate them. And so that's why I share that
and I reflect on it often, and that's that's where
I've landed twenty five years into this profession. If I'm
(04:23):
if I'm going to choose between teaching and judging, I
will choose teaching.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Every time you just mentioned the long game, and I
know that's something obviously you're passionate about I know you're
an author as well. I talk about it a lot,
and you're someone who's doing it firsthand. Huge correlation between
coaching teaching. Jim Calhoun, who I had on obviously a legend,
and even Tim Corbin they talk about being teachers in sport. Right,
So how do we formulate considering our entire ecosystem, whether
(04:51):
it be academia or athletics, particularly at the youth level.
It's all based on performance, right. There's winners, there's losers,
there's scoreboards, there's acceptance into universities. I'm going through this
right now with my second oldest. So how do we
curtail that and when we're teaching or coaching keep the
perspective of, you know, the individual, while still trying to
(05:14):
help them. Tim Corbin send to me, everyone runs their
own race? Is that? Is that what we're talking about? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:20):
I did a I put a video out the other day.
I you know, I think there are three things that
really create a fear based mindset in athletes. It's comparisons,
It's outcomes, and it's deadlines. And you know, every coach
knows that, you know, you could get the greatest buy
in with your athletes and then the minute you post
a lineup, now now you've you've created a comparison, and
(05:43):
that that can be challenging, and immediately you've got this
judgment of running through the program. Uh, and it's undeniable,
like every coach eventually has to do it, and and
that can fracture culture if if you're not communicating that
message and how every.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Coach works his lineup.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
But what I would argue is I would say that
so often we create these deadlines and we get outcome
based when we don't have to create deadlines and become
outcome based.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
So, yeah, I'm a big fan. I have three hashtags
that I love it. It's run your race, no finish
lines and top with carry water, And those are the
three that I think that if I embrace and I
can communicate to my athletes, then we can live in
this love based reality. And I know that might sound
a little touchy feely, but I really think it's important.
(06:33):
And in twenty twenty four, it does feel like this
relationship model is at the forefront.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
It's pushing away this this.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Social Darwinism, survival of the fittest when it all costs.
I think it's it's pushing that aside, and I think
it's recognizing that this love based reality is the way
to go. So when I hear run your race, that
gets me fired up. No finish lines, right, lifelong learner
that idea. And then the chopboy cherry water is you know,
(07:03):
don't don't swallow the praise because you'll swallow the poison.
Try to interpret feedback as feedback. Keep it neutral, don't
get don't get wrapped up in wins and losses, just
keep just keep moving forward.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
You played ball at Wake Forest, Am I right about that?
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
All right, So so you played at an extremely high level.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Now that Wake Forest I played at wasn't the Wake
Forest that currently exists.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Like we we were middle of the road.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Acc we were good. I don't want to I don't
want to disparage my time there. But certainly Wake has
a vault into a power power program.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Sure, but obviously still acc you know the quote unquote
power five. You're playing at the highest level of collegiate
athletics at the time and still is. But what I'm
going with that is you have the perspective of you know,
a lot of sports parents, youth sports parents, will listen
to this. Obviously, coaches as well. You have the perspective
of coach, former high level athlete. You're a sports parent
as well, so so as a sports parent listened to this.
(07:56):
Who may not be in form right, they don't have
the same person, They didn't play in the acc they
don't coach, they don't teach, they haven't been in the
classroom for twenty five years. Hypothetically, I'm a thirty five
year old parent. My kids are just entering the youth
sports ecosystem where everything's based on performance. How do we
not get sucked into, you know, results driven with very
little you know, background to be able to formulate or
(08:18):
kind of go in there with any shield. Right, It's
almost like at times you could be going into a
war with no protection. It's I mean, I mean a
little you know, might bee being a little extreme, but
it could feel like that and a little overwhelming. How
do we prepare ourselves as young parents who may not
have the background, you know?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
One of the things I call into question a lot
is what you'll hear people say you got to compete
at everything you do. And although that might be true
on some levels, like when you become a parent. If
you engage in a competitive mindset, you're going to find
yourself fighting on the sidelines. You're going to find yourself,
you know, valuing wins more than they should. Because if
(08:55):
we're competing at everything we do, we need to win.
We need to win this this nine you baseball game.
And the one thing that I think often gets overlooked
is young athletes have young parents. And I think sometimes
as you age, you simply gain the perspective of maturity
and you look back and you realize that ultimately it
(09:15):
is about development, it is about growth, it is about
developing relationships. And having said all of that, I desperately
wanted to treat my young athletes as baseball players, and
I wanted to value the win.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
I wanted to teach them how to compete.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
I mean, it was important to me, but it was
important only if we did it with integrity. And I
think as a coach at that youth level, part of
integrity is making sure everyone has a role.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Like we're not a college team.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
It isn't like we have bench players that have to
support the starters, and that's not it. And so if
I were presenting to a group of young parents, I
would again, would I would try to emphasize the long game.
I would try to emphasize, you know, be an ambassad
for the sport. I would try to emphasize, you know,
root for your teammates, your son, your daughter's teammates, as
(10:07):
much as your root for your son and daughter. I
think when we get that narrow focus of mom and dad,
sometimes not only do we lose sight of the big picture,
but we focus our attention on our son and our daughter,
and then therein lies a lot of the root problem.
Is that that intensity, that competition that we have to
get ours and so yeah, it's it's it's retracting the lens,
(10:30):
it's that thirty thousand foot view.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Ultimately, we're trying to grow in the game, not win
a game. I guess that would be my message.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Do you feel like sports parents, and some rightfully so,
get a bad rap. Oftentimes, you know, you'll hear people,
even I for that matter, will say, Hey, we drop
our kids off at school. They're in the classroom. We're
not sitting there watching them take a test. You know,
We're not sitting there watching them get their lecture or
doing whatever assignment they have for the day. So why
do we feel like we need to impede upon a
(10:59):
coach during a practice. Why do we need to be
so engaged? Do you notice that the classroom has changed?
Is there a correlation? Are parents the same with the
classroom aspect of it their students in the classroom as
they are with sports, or do you notice a difference.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Well, obviously, I'm a teacher, I'm a coach, I'm a parent,
I'm all the above. I'm just going to speak from
my perspective, Like if I were on a practice, I
would invite anyone to stay and watch, like I just
enjoyed my time coaching athletes and practice planning that I
enjoyed having the parents there to watch and learn. Like
(11:36):
for me, I wanted my message to resonate behind closed doors.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
I wanted them to talk about what it was.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
We were learning, so they could, you know, they could reiterate
my message, they could emphasize my message. There are some
coaches that might perceive that as a parent imposing on them,
like this is my time and I want my message.
But I was always more inclusive in that way. I
would invite the parents for a postgame talk.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Again, I was talking at a youth level. I'm not talking
at at like a high school level or a college level.
But I'm not saying it couldn't be done.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
I just I'm a I'm a big fan of transparency
and I would share as much as possible. And I'm
even humble enough to recognize.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
I wrote a book How the River Cats Won, and
I had.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Some amazing parents, and you know, I talked in there
about being challenged by parents when my emotions got too hot,
and they were right, and I'd like to think that
they were capable of challenging me because I created an
environment that they were permitted to do so. So it
is absolutely a sticky wicket like it is absolutely one
(12:44):
of those those tough things to navigate, but I have
found that it is way easier when the guy in charge,
the head coach, is humble enough to say I don't
have all the answers, but I've I've got a ton
of experience, and I do a lot of reading and
I try to stay up to speed all the latest research.
But if you come across something that you think might
(13:05):
help the boys the girls, I'm all in. And so
I don't know if that directly answered it, but that's
just how I want to do agress.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
When we return, Kyle and I dive into coaching transparency.
Our friends at Team snap are back with another free
webinar Wednesday, February twenty first at one pm Eastern. See
how the latest updates to the registration system on Team
snap for Business will help you seamlessly collect payments and
documents and improve the members sign up experience. Team Snap
(13:33):
for businesses registration system is the best way to sign
up athletes for your up and coming season, and their
new features improve the sign up experience for administrators, coaches,
and families. During their upcoming webinar, you'll get an overview
of their registration system and learn how the latest updates
help you create teams even more seamlessly with updated rostering capabilities,
(13:53):
collect documents such as waivers with even more flexibility, improve
accessibility with offline payments for non baking family, and much more.
Sign up to learn more about how Team snaps evolving
platform meets your sports business needs, head to teamsnap dot
com and sign up today. Where we left off, Hyle
(14:18):
and I were about to discuss his approach to communicating
with his player's parents and the downsize of early praise.
So I know, in my coaching experience, I always have
like a pre practice first meeting, you know, like an
introductory thing. I give him a little bit of my background,
and this is what it could be seven years old,
you know, eight years old, nine years old. Just hey,
(14:38):
here's what we're gonna do. Here's what I think. Let's
and I try to set a boundary, you know, and
I even send a long email like, hey, these not
a long email, but I try to touch on something
these kids are seven or their rate, you know, like
let's keep that perspective. Do you set a boundary, like
do you try to set expectations? Because I totally agree
with your transparency. You know, the lines of communication have
to be open. I think a lot of times where
(14:59):
we get up parents is when there is no transparency.
It's not necessarily an over communication, but just kind of
set the expectation from the on sects. I'm sure a
lot of people will hear this and go, how do
I navigate that balance right? That juggling act.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Yeah, transparency doesn't mean all the time, I think, you know,
we have to account for the fact that anytime that
a parent and a coach engage in some sort of
communication in public, every every set of eyes is allowed.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
To interpret that communication however they want.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
And so what I was always hesitant of is that
that public communication in front of others that could could form.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Their opinion and one that I didn't want them to form.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
So I said, look, you know, your son, your daughter
might be struggling, and we might have some communication where
I'm gonna I'm gonna sit them down for two games
and just let them, you know, assess the situation from
a different angle.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
We're going to talk about that. But I still believe
in you.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
I'm still going to give you opportunities and then you
know you're you're gonna You're gonna find your way back
in the lineup. But if mom or dad come and
approach me at the end of the second game, uh,
and I had every intention of playing them the next game.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Now parents see that interaction.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
And then all of a sudden that that that child's
in the lineup, they're.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Free to go. Oh, this is how it works.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
If I confront coach, then I get in the lineup,
and I don't want that. So I make it clear
that look, I want transparency, but I would love to
do it away from the public arena. I want to
talk about your son and your son only your daughter,
and I'll tell you exactly where they fit. And I'm
doing my best to try to get him in opportunities
to develop. But if if if people see us talking
(16:41):
and then I play them like, I don't know if
that's fair to me. And so that was how I
always communicated that in the preseason.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Stuff to kind of shift gears a little bit, but
stay on the youth piece. This is something I think
you and I actually connected through this topic was the
early specialization, you know, multi sport thing, which I got
to tell you, man, in the last decade plus, but
really especially the last like you know, five to seven,
ten years. Man, it's hard. It's hard to you know
who's right or wrong. I don't know if there is
(17:09):
a right or wrong. Well I shouldn't say that. I
think there is a right or wrong. I think it's balanced.
But but it's becoming harder. It's becoming harder. Everything is
year round. I mean, I believe you're I think, are
you down in Georgia?
Speaker 3 (17:22):
I live in Pennsylvania. Is that is that what you're asking?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yeah? Okay, so you live in Yeah? Okay, so so
you live in a colder climate state. I'm in North Carolina,
so you can't play everything year round. You know, I
grew up in the Northeast and you couldn't play baseball
year round. And then it's also thirty years ago. But
you know, how do you as a coach? I mean,
for God's sakes, I saw a post the other day
(17:44):
where apparently there's and it's not just I saw the post,
but I've heard it. There's like travel coaches encouraging high
school kids not to play for their high school because
it's it's not good enough. They're not good enough, They're
going to get worse. It's like how do we juggle?
How do you juggle this? And more importantly, like how
did you navigate it with your It's because I know
you have kids that played at a very high level
as well.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
So one of the banners on our inside co egs
that was our training facility was competer developed at something
year round and those words were intentional computer develop right,
And so so often coaches with an agenda only ever
focused on developing, like we have to sharpen the blade,
we have to get better. Everyone's improved. They can't waste
any time. I think they missed that component of compete.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
You know, I would.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Tell any baseball player that you know, you're standing on
the foul line down one with two seconds to go.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
I mean, how could you not argue that that wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Be helpful from an athletic standpoint. And we actually have
a very specific case here in my backyard, Redland High School,
where we have a really high level baseball player, like
a high end draft status in the July draft coming.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Up, and yet he's a great basketball player.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
And the coaches got together and they designed a program
together for the athlete that allows him to.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Continue to lift, continue to hit, continue to do what
he needs to do. And yet he's still playing basketball.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
And I don't think that happens if you don't have
flexible coaches, you know. And I've actually gotten a little
debate I've shared I've shared his story with others, and
there are.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
Some basketball coaches that said, no.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
I wouldn't accommodate him in that way. And my response
would be, if you're not going to accommodate him, you're
probably going to lose him. And so we can't just
dump the burden on the athlete and say, hey, play.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
As much as possible.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
The coaches need to accept some responsibility too, and say, look,
the pressure is immense. It's immense for these athletes with
so many eyes on him in the social media world.
You know, what can we do to assist we can
be flexible? We can we can potentially say, hey, this
particular athlete might not have to show up for a
(19:54):
six am lift because he needs his sleep and he
doesn't want to lose the weight. And so those are
some concessions that I'm always I'm always impressed when a
coach shows some adaptability in that area. But yeah, it
is it is strange that that the travel world is
imposing on these communities in ways that we're losing our.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Structure a little bit. That's unfortunately. I hope it turns around.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
I think the more podcasts like this give it a
fighting chance.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Do you feel as though that I actually when I
had David Epstein on a couple of years ago, and
he kind of brought up the point it almost feels
like as a young parent you have to go rogue,
you know, against the system, because he knows all the data, right,
He's done the research, you know, with range, and he
knows you know, the value of you know versatility, and
you know sports sampling or just sampling in life, and
(20:45):
it's like you almost feel like you have to go rogue.
And now I am confident in my perspective as a
parent to be able to give my kids a broad
buffet or help them adapt their palette to different things
and let them find their path. But it almost that fomo. Man,
how do you navigate the fomo as a parent?
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Well, I mean your initial question to me about grades,
you know, it sort of stems from that, Like we
tend to elevate and reward people before the race is over.
I don't understand why we have to celebrate the A
on October eighteenth, Like why does that define someone? It's
a letter on their transcript and we can't remove it,
(21:25):
and an A is elevating them, it's raising them above
the sea. And then it speaks to the same point
you're bringing up here, is that you know, we get
so wrapped up in early success and we want to
applaud it, we want to elevate.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
It, we want to hold it to the highest level.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
And then we question why parents chase that, Well, they
chase it because we recognize it and we hold it
in the highest esteem, and if we really want to
play the long game, if we want to really want.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
To grow our athletes and we want to give.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Them skills and develop them, sometimes we have to really
challenge ourselves as to why is it that we celebrate
this early success. And you know, I've coached lots of
high level athletes and and some I was fortunate enough
to be first rounders, and you know, there there were some.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
That were elite at a very early age.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I was fortunate enough to coach Anthony Boltby and I
remember coaching him as a as a ten year old,
walked into the nurses office the next day at school,
I said, I just I just coached the.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Future Big leaguer And that played out. But then another.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
First rounder, Benny Montgomery from the the Rockies organization. He
didn't start on the varsity team as a as a freshman,
but you could see his potential. He was going to grow,
he was gonna get he's gonna get super strong, and
yet you know, there were lots of people that he's.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Passed along the way. It's this it's this.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Early praise that I think just gets people chasing their
own thing. So that that's again, that's that no finish
line mentality. It's like, why are we celebrating success when
excess is miles away?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Coach wags. I want people to connect with you. I
love what you do, I love your perspective. I think
you have tremendous insight that can help a lot of people.
Where can they find you on your platforms? I know
you're on ex Twitter, Where else can they find you?
Speaker 3 (23:14):
That's really it.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
I had an incident where an unfortunate incident where I
was hacked, and so I jumped off of Instagram and Facebook,
and I had all kinds of stuff out there.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
But it's it's X.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
And I mean, I've shared my green Land hitting book.
I'll share with anyone that's I can share that online
through X. But that's that's my primary resource that I use.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Just the X.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Where can people find your book?
Speaker 3 (23:40):
You can get it on Amazon.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
How the Rivercats Won. How the Rivercats Won was a
It was my model, my framework for developing not only athletes,
but you know, growing teams. A lot of a lot
of young coaches are curious about, you know, the cutting
process and how they try kids out and you know, shoot,
should we should we try to keep the same team
(24:02):
as we grow, and so I sat down and wrote
a book, How the Rivercats, one that's on Amazon, and
then the green Light Hitting book that I wrote in
twenty twelve.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
That thing got so darn expensive.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
I don't even suggest anyone buys the hard copy, although.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Some people do like it.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
You can get that on Blurb is actually the site
for that.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Kyle Wagner coach WAGS, thank you so much for coming on,
sharing your time, your perspective. We're going to run this
back again. I can't thank you enough.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Man.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
You're very welcome and I love that you invited me.
I appreciate the time.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
That's Kyle Wagner, teacher, coach, author and sportsparent. Thanks for
listening to the Reform Sports Podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode,
we would appreciate it if you took a moment to
rate and review our podcast. As we work to grow
our community of supporters and advocates for more reform sports content,
please subscribe to our newsletter and blog at Reformsports Project
(24:54):
dot com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram,
and LinkedIn.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.