October 14, 2020 • 26 mins
With the increased usage of dating apps, hookup culture is easier than ever to engage in. Sex seems to be ingrained in our culture, and the commonality of it can often create expectations amongst our own relationships. In this episode, we want to talk about the pressures to have sex, sexual safety, and grappling with intimacy.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello everyone. Hey, welcome back to The Secret Syllabus podcast.
The Secret Syllabus is a production of The Female Quotient
and I Heart Radio and co produced by The Female
Quotient and Wonder Media Network. I'm Katie Tracy and I'm
Hannah Ashton. This episode is about love and relationships in college.
However you defind those words, it'll be really fun too,
(00:24):
because Hannah and I have pretty different experiences. And by
that I mean I have never had a boyfriend and
Hannah is in a long term relationship. So, Hannah, did
you think about romantic relationships before coming to college. Yes, well,
it's a little bit different for me because the two
people I've dated actually have been from my hometown. So
(00:45):
I've never met someone on campus or in my college city. UM,
and that that I've gotten into a relationship with. UM.
But I know that's that's different for a lot of
a lot of girls and guys who come to college
and who are looking for a relationship while they're here
in college. This year, I was actually introduced to a
mutual friend over the summer and we started talking and
that's my boyfriend. Now. We started dating before I headed
(01:07):
back to school, but before then um during my sophomore year.
I was single for over a year, so I don't
feel like looking for a relationship is usually my top
priority while at college. But what about you, Katie? Yeah,
I mean neither. It wasn't my priority either. I do
feel there is this unspoken pressure and also excitement around it.
I remember my first year at Cornell, so many new
(01:29):
couples were forming in the first week of college, and
I was like, wait, didn't y'all just meet each other
a week ago? That's so funny. I'm sure that a
lot of people going in are ready to meet new people,
and part of that is also meeting new people to date.
But I'm curious if you were nervous at all about
meeting new people, especially coming from out of the country. Yes,
that is such a good question because there are many
(01:50):
relationships that were new to me. So the first was
just friendship, and that was something I was very worried
about because before going to college I didn't know any
d from the school. It was also my first time
living in America as an international student, so I was
extra nervous. Spoiler, though, every first year's nervous about making friends,
so don't worry about it. And as for relationships, not really.
(02:14):
It has come very naturally in my experience with people
asking you out or going on date nights with our fraternities.
M For friendship wise, I actually went in with one
of my good friends from my hometown. We were roommates,
and so I felt a lot of security in having
her and being able to go to social functions with her,
and so I feel like that helped me be less
(02:35):
nervous because I was meeting new people while already having
a friend right beside me. But I know that it
can be very intimidating for people going into a campus
where they may be only visited with their parents on
a college tour um. But I'm thankful that a lot
of campuses are aware of this and they're always putting
together social events to kind of help with that. I agree,
I just threw myself in all the social events without first,
(02:57):
you know, orientation week. You know things have changed a
bit though since then. How do you feel about dating
during COVID? Yes, so from the dating perspective, the actual
dates you can go on are limited. You know, I
used to love going to the movies and going to
concerts on dates, but instead my boyfriend and I are
just trying to find ways to be creative. Um, we
(03:18):
like being outside since the weather has been great, we
go on walks, we'll go play tennis, or you know,
just order take out and watch movies always good too.
But from my single friends perspectives, I know that dating
to meet new people has been really tough. Like you
really aren't meeting new people, you aren't being introduced to
new people on your campus, new people in your city
through social events, and the whole online dating scene is
(03:39):
just awkward. So I know for many this was not
the dating scene they were expecting for this year plus
one on that I relate. It's also really challenging to
read people and their body language because you only see
their head and maybe half of their arm occasionally when
they're doing hand gestures. But for interview today, we will
find great answers to all our questions. I am so
(04:00):
excited for our guests. She is Shannon Foodrum. Shan Boodrum
is a sexologist and intimacy educator who teaches people how
to be more confident. She is a best selling author
of the Game of Desire and a well known host
of dating shows, including MTVS Guide to Sex and Quibes
Sexology with Shan Boodrum. Hey Shan, welcome to the show.
(04:21):
We can't wait to bring your knowledge and expertise on
all things sex and relationships to our listeners. To start,
could you share with us where you're from and what
your title sexologist is all about. Yes, I'm actually from Toronto, Canada.
I currently live in Los Angeles, but I am desperately
missing home right now. I haven't been back, all of
which is really really sad and scary to say. Sexologist
(04:45):
is the study of sex as it relates to biology, psychology, criminology, sociology,
et cetera. Sexologists can show up in a variety of fields,
kind of like nutritionist can. But I am a public
facing sex educator, so I don't do any one to
one work or research work. The job that I have
chosen and that I always knew I was meant for,
(05:05):
was to bring scholastic information that can be kind of
dry and boring around sex and add some lube to it,
make it fun, and then deliver it to the public.
My goal is to get the average person invested in
their sex and intimacy education. You once said that sex sells,
but sex education does not. Can you tell us about
(05:25):
what your sex at experience was like and how that
shaped you to become an educator in this space. Yeah,
I would love to hear from both of you what
your sex education was like, because it feels like sex
said is the longest running mutual joke. Like your grandma
can laugh about how ridiculous it was, your great grandma,
you can laugh about it. The way it's looking right now,
your kids are gonna laugh about it. It is laughable.
(05:47):
It's dismal. You know, if anything in life that it
plays a massive role in who you're going to be
and how it's going to shape your world. That you
only spend two weeks on, that's ridiculous. We're all sexual beings,
no matter how we decided to interact with that, and
we're given such limited information to have a successful go
at this area of our life. I always liken it
(06:08):
to almost like imagine if you never went to school,
you never got any education, you didn't get any of
the basic skills, and then at eighteen years old, they
were like, Okay, choose whatever job you want to be,
and now all of a sudden, you're a surgeon and
you've learned nothing about it. Except for like a couple
of weeks of stuff and two YouTube videos, and it's
your job to make sure someone's heart doesn't fail on
(06:29):
the table. That's what really happens with sex and relationships.
We give such limited information and we shove people out
there and say go out there, and good luck to you,
and we wonder why it's so catastrophic for so many people.
So my inspiration into this space was really my own
teen sex life. It was me being the surgeon, going
out there, trying my hand at it, doing incredibly terrible
(06:51):
and thinking, Okay, either one of two things, this is
a very awful place in life that I have no
business interacting with or I don't have the information tools
to interact with it in a successful, healthy way. So
let me try to see if I can educate myself
first to make a difference. And if that doesn't work,
then I'm going to become a nun. Obviously that didn't
(07:12):
work out that way because I'm not a nun. So
here we are today. I love how you said it's
a running joke because for me, what I remember was
I think my freshman year of high school, so I
was fourteen, and it was two lessons like two hour lessons.
It was one week and it was just mainly about
like women's periods and how to take care of yourself
(07:34):
and hygiene, and very little about actually um sex education.
And I think that also comes from living in a
very conservative area in city and it's just not being
a topic that most people want to talk about. But
what was your experience, Gatie, Yeah, I remember my first
time learning about this was in eighth grade. It was
a well inness class and I remember one time our teacher,
(07:55):
you know, like pulled out a condom and everybody was
just like, what is this and they were kind of joking.
They were like one of my friends actually gave it
to me. They were like, it's candy. Try it. And
I had no idea what it was like. I might
have really put my mouth in it if I had
not known. Yeah, it's it was interesting. That's funny. And
how old were you then, and you've never seen a
commum before? I had not. Yeah, I think I was
(08:16):
maybe eleven. But to be fair, I think the Philippines
is a pretty conservative country. As a woman of color
in the space, how have you defined your voice and
used it to differentiate yourself? Yeah, I think It's a
really big question because, especially when I first began, there
was nobody who looked like me, who was standing on
a soapbox to spread information. And for a long time,
(08:40):
that could make you feel unworthy, because you never walk
into rooms and feel welcome, people never automatically assume your authority.
You will have to always constantly fight for it. But
those were actually evidence is to me that I truly
needed to be here. And you know, honestly, I don't
know how I did this, but I never tried to
be something that I wasn't. I never tried to be
(09:02):
more scholastic, more uptight, more what the traditional sex educators were,
because I just acknowledged that those are not the people
that I was personally drawn to. And even when I
had done my research at nineteen years old to try
to educate myself, as much as I did find value
in the content, the context of how it was delivered
wasn't appealing to me. One of the things that really
(09:24):
stuck with me when I was thinking about my sex
education is I was really heavily influenced by porn, by
fiction books, and by movies because they were just so interesting.
Like that's to the point that you were making Katie,
what I was saying that sex sells with sex said
does not. Everything that utilizes sex as a tool for
telling a story. You're selling a product uses interesting people
(09:46):
and salacious storylines, and it's something that you actually want
to participate in. But sex said is facts, and it's faceless,
and it's dry, it's monotonous. Sex said, in many ways
is bad sex. So how was it that I could
incorporate the things at were attractive to me and add
some truth to it, and that I knew was my
unique space and my unique voice in my multiculturalism was
(10:08):
a big part of how I wanted my delivery to
stand out. And it's great you started so young too,
because a lot of our listeners are in that nineteen
to twenty year old range, And it just shows that
you can find what you're passionate about and have a voice,
and that can grow into a career no matter what
age you start. What age did did both of you
know that this is what you wanted to do? I
started creating content really young, but got into it and
(10:31):
started looking at job opportunities through sponsorships around thirteen or fourteen.
Same here. I started this when I was thirteen, and
Hen and I had actually met each other online when
we were that young too. You know, it took us
six years we're both nineteen and twenty right now to
actually reunite and make this podcast. I think it's amazing.
I think that you're always gonna look back at this
(10:51):
time in your life when you were this brave and
be like wow, Like, I draw inspiration from my nineteen
year old self all the time, because she had no
answers but only had conviction, and she had no guarantee
that any of this would work out, and there was
so much risk involved, not just risk of time and
risk of failure, but risk of judgment. She really threw
(11:12):
herself into that. On the note of challenging tradition, actually,
we'd like to dive into the gen Z culture of dating.
What do you think makes our generations approach different from
previous ones. I think obviously dating apps make the culture
extremely different because that's still a very new and emerging field.
The beauty of dating apps is everybody on there is
(11:33):
making an intention to say I want to meet somebody.
So I think that could be used for good in
many ways, because you're like, oh wow, like the accessibility
is there, and the awkwardness of like do you like
me or do not? Do you want to go to
the spring formal or not has removed in many ways
because it's either they swiped anywhere they didn't. But I
think the downside of that is not learning how to
(11:55):
flirt in person, not learning how to test people out,
but where you put yourself in a position where there's
any level of commitment there. So I can see that
it's vastly different in many ways, and some for the
better and some for the worst. I know what happens
a lot of times on these dating apps is ghosting.
And you talk about this in your book The Game
of Desire. Why do you think our generation is so
(12:17):
quick to ghost and not take any responsibility. Yeah, I
think that ghosting is seen as an indirect breakup. When
you date in person, there is some sense of shared accountability.
So if you know, Katie met somebody at a party
and they both know the person who threw the party,
ghosting is a little harder because you've got somebody in
the middle, whereas in on dating apps there's this beyond
(12:38):
that six degrees separation. There's no accountability partners between you
and this other person. So it's very easy to think
that cutting ties and not say anything is the best route,
especially since the chance of seeing each other again is
pretty low, and I think a lot of people think
that it's better that people prefer for them to do
it that way. Also, too, it's a way of keeping
(12:59):
the option open. So if I am seeing somebody, but
maybe I'm seeing somebody else, or perhaps I'm going through
a busy to whatever my excuses for not wanting to
pursue the relationship at this time. If I ghost, I
never technically close the loop, which leads a potential for
me to come back in four months and be like, hey,
how are you. But going back to the fact that
we don't get sex or intimacy education, we don't necessarily
(13:22):
get taught how to date or how to connect. Closing
the feedback loop is very detrimental to people. It becomes
very difficult to learn what you're doing that is off
putting or who you're attracting them. It may not necessarily
be the right fit for you, And so if people
aren't revealing their reasons for wanting to dissolve the connection,
then you learn nothing from it, and it was a
waste of time. For everybody. So we have to make
(13:45):
a commitment, I think, to each other to want to
help each other get better at this space that we
have such limited information on how to do. So, do
you have any tips then for how to date online?
Especially during COVID when that's the new normal. I think
a lot of people make the mistake of being like
I want to be in a relationship, and that's what
(14:05):
happens after. So what's the very next step? So my
very next thing that I want from this lifetime is
I want to get into a connection that actually makes
me feel good. I want to be around somebody who
has a similar hobby to me. I want to be
around somebody who helps hold me accountable because I'm starting
this new podcast, whatever it is like. So getting really
clear about what your next intention is for a partner,
(14:25):
how could romantic relationship in any capacity enhance your life,
and making sure you're looking for that when you're looking,
and then breaking that down into traits and qualities that
you think could bring out the best in you. Right now,
this is an area in life where everyone has been
told don't worry about it, don't focus on it too much,
don't stress, just be yourself just let it happen, just relax.
(14:48):
That's just not the average person story most people. If
you want to see progress, you have to have a process.
You have to invest in the time and energy. You
have to educate yourself to get skilled or have great
results in anything, there is a very specific process to
do so. And so if you're frustrated with the results
you're getting in dating and love, maybe it's time to
(15:09):
throw out that old adage that you're not supposed to
put energy towards controlling what the result is. I love
how you are reaching a demographic of one who want
more step by step guidelines because the world of dating
is so different when you're especially starting out in college,
like you're meeting all these brand new people, and so
I'd love to hear if you have any advice for
how college students can feel a little bit less nervous
(15:32):
going on virtual dates or in person once the time allows. Yeah.
I think anything that you do that you feel nervous
about because you don't do it enough, Anything that you
don't do frequently and you don't put yourself in that
realm to do is going to feel uncomfortable and unnatural
to you. My five steps in that book just loosely
are to know First, you have to know yourself. Secondly,
(15:53):
you have to try to change the things that you've
learned about yourself. That knowing process you know our self,
sabotaging and qualities they're you have to be in a
position where you're willing to learn new things, So trying
to pick up the information that you didn't have the
luxury of getting growing up. And then forth you have
to practice, and that doesn't look like failing at forty
(16:13):
first dates. Practicing could just mean trying out being a
bit more flirty in your everyday interactions, and practicing could
be engaging in chats a little longer on dating apps,
just so you could try out different conversation starters. So
if you feel uncomfortable doing anything, if you feel nervous
when the stakes are high, you have to look for
(16:35):
lower stakes scenario where you can express that part of
yourself and that way, when it actually matters, it almost
feels like second nature to you. But rest assured, the
more that you do something, the better that you're going
to get at that. And uh, that is so true,
not just for hockey, it's also true for sex, love
and dating. Yeah, I think just listening to you has
(16:58):
just made so much more excited. I think what you've
done with the approach to dating is, you know, take
this like framework that applies to so many things, and
you applied it to dating and made it seem so
much more approachable. So what advice do you have for
incoming first year students on hook up culture in college?
Focus less on the kinds of relationships that you want
(17:19):
and focus more on the kinds of experiences that are
going to make this year or this time in your
life meaningful, and that might end up leading you to
a relationship. And if it doesn't, at least you would
have known that you invited the kind of interaction that
was going to be positive to you into your world.
So the more small and direct and tangible your goals
can be, not things that you want to accomplish at
(17:41):
the end of year four. What is the goal that
you want in the next week, in the next two weeks, okay,
in the first week of school. I want to talk
to one person I find attractive. I want to introduce
myself to two people who I would feel too scared
to talk to and strike up a conversation with them.
If I do that, and I feel good about the
inter action, and now I want to hang out with
(18:01):
that person. And if I do that and I feel
bad about the interaction, now I want to talk to
two more people. So the more you can really simplify
and keep your goals not just for school but for
your intimate life really tangible and direct, and really focus
on what would bring out the best in me this year.
What am I going to look back on in fifteen
(18:21):
years and say like, wow, like I really had a
very enjoyable time during that space in my life. I
think only you can really answer that question. That's great
to keep in mind for anyone in school or out
of school, just those questions. So I'm sure at the
same time that many women want to have sex, some don't,
And when we associate sexual empowerment with women empowerment, it
(18:43):
can make those not interested in sex feel like they're
almost betraying their women empowerment values. And so I'd love
for you to talk about any advice you have for
women who don't want to engage in hookup culture but
maybe feel pressured to. Not having sex is empowering. That's
the whole point of empower ornament. It's to give you
the power. So honoring empowerment is really honoring yourself the
(19:05):
second that you are trying to fit into the mold.
That's the same thing as suppression, as regression. A lot
of times though, trying to force yourself to live an
ideal of a life that is quote unquote empowered but
not true to yourself is really no different than what
was happening one hundred years ago. So you are betraying
the word empowerment if you are trying to become anything
(19:28):
other than what authentically brings out the best in yourself.
And if you know that sex is not a priority
for you, or it goes against your priorities, just's not
an interest right now, or the quality of sexual experiences
that are available to you would not actually bring you pleasure, enjoyment,
and self fulfillment, and you're opting out that's really really powerful.
I love all that you just said. This question is
(19:49):
a bit more serious, but I think it's super important
to address. Sometimes when women face sexual assault, they are
criticized for wearing clothes that are quote to revealing or
quote they were asking for it. What do you think
about this burden falling on women and what do you
think the roles are of each party here. Yeah, I
think that that's goes back to toxic masculinity, this idea
(20:10):
that men have these natural drives that are uncontrolled and
impossible to curtail, so aggression, sexual prowess, and going after
what they want. So I think dismantling ideas around toxic masculinity,
not saying things like boys will be boys. Holding everyone
to a higher standard of respect, of consent, of empathy,
(20:35):
and of emotional intelligence is a big part of it.
And I say everyone because I mean everybody. Everybody should
be held to the standards of being responsible for not
just how they feel, but also having some semblance of empathy,
for not wanting to give anybody else a negative experience.
So there has definitely been positive movements I think towards
(20:59):
a world where people are dismantling ideals around toxic masculinity,
and as a result, women don't have to feel like
I am not only responsible for my own behavior, I
am responsible for not inciting negative behavior out of others
simply by the way that I'm existing. The future is
where we don't have to think that way, but the
(21:19):
present is that we still somewhat do. And so employing
the buddy system where if you're going out to a
party or you're going out in general, people know where
you are, what you're doing, and the two of you
have a conversation the kind of experiences you want to
have that night. And so if somebody gets really drunk
and they see you getting pulled in a direction that
you expressed earlier you don't want to, they can be
(21:41):
an accountability partner for you. I think also to protecting
yourself with things that you can walk around with on
campus to make sure that you're safe is important. Set
yourself up for safety that that still holds true if
it hasn't already been clear. Hannah, and I love how
you champion women having standards, knowing what they on and
not being afraid to get it. I think one fear,
(22:03):
at least for me and perhaps many listeners, is what
if we don't find someone who meets those standards. And
I know women face a lot of pressure too because
we have a timer when we're often told to settle
because we don't want to live forever alone either. So
how do you navigate that if you live in a
city with forty million people or even four hundred thousand people,
(22:25):
and nobody meets your standards. It's you, honey, that's first
and foremost. I live in l A. And it's so
fascinating to me how many people here will easily say
there are no good people to date in l A.
If you're experiencing that much failure and that much disappointment,
change the environment that you're seeking. People reconfigure what your
standards are. I'm really highly suggest people limiting your standards
(22:49):
as well too. To three things. If you haven't necessarily
put the work into educating yourself and becoming a better flirt,
into learning the artist, abduction, into learning how to date
number two, if you a bit more education, you could
pick five things. So that to be said, I would
look at what my three to five things are that
I'm trying to find in a person, and then sometimes
two a matter of doing the math right. If I
(23:10):
live in a town of ten thousand people, and on
my list of three to five things, I'm looking for
somebody who was university educated, who is more spiritual than religious,
who has no desires to have kids, and has a
love for travel. It's a high novelty seeker. I've already
just like X out mathematically a solid people in my
(23:33):
town now have to consider who's of age, who's available,
and who's of the gender that I'm attracted to, and
so in the end I'm left with the pool of
five different people. And that's when you made to say, okay,
based on how like stringent my standards are, I may
have to relocate cities to find the person for me.
So those are probably your two options. Is one to
change your standards or to to change your location to
(23:56):
where your standards are more mathematically likely to come to fruition. Shan,
thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us
today and leaving us all just more confident about how
to navigate relationships during this time. To all our listeners,
you do not want to miss more of A. Shan's
wisdom and story times on our YouTube channel and Instagram
at Shan Booty. Her book is the Game of Desire
(24:17):
and we will have it in the show notes as well.
Thank you Shan, Thank you Hannah Ashton, thank you Katie.
Well Hannah, what was your takeaway? There are so many?
One was not only is sex education lacking in our
young adult lives, but she used the term intimacy education,
which is also lacking or mostly non existent. Yet when
(24:40):
you think about it, relationships are a huge part of
our lives, and although we may get lots of career
training in college, we equally need guidance and help navigating relationships, dating,
and intimacy. And I think that's interesting that it's not
really talked about in UM an academic setting. So that
is where I'm very thankful that we can look to
online creators and mentor until our education hopefully offers this
(25:02):
in the future. What about you, Katie, I agree, and
for me, this was a great wake up call. I
think in high school I was very idealistic, hopeless romantic
because I read too much y A young adult books.
I still do, but I am more in touch with
reality now. I think relationships can be beautiful, but sometimes
they're over glorified and without intentionality in a relationship, which
(25:26):
is what Shannon talked a lot about, it can lead
to people getting hurt. I'll leave you listeners with this
new term. My friend tag me in on a meme
procol sexual, which is someone who only feels romantic attraction
to people they can never be in a relationship with,
such as celebrities and fictional characters. Maybe you'll relate to Yes,
definitely d MS. We'd love to hear. But thank you
(25:48):
guys so much for listening. We are your hosts. I'm Hannah.
You can find me at Miss Hannah Ashton on Instagram.
And I'm Katie you can find me at a Loha
kadi x on Instagram. The Secret syllabis It was created
by The Female Quotation in partnership with iHeartMedia and co
produced by the Female Quotient and Wonder Media Network. The
f Q is committed to advancing equality and elevating women
(26:10):
from college campuses to the corner office. You can find
out more at www dot the Female Quotient dot com.
See you guys after class. Hi
Hello everyone. Hey, welcome back to The Secret Syllabus podcast.
The Secret Syllabus is a production of The Female Quotient
and I Heart Radio and co produced by The Female
Quotient and Wonder Media Network. I'm Katie Tracy and I'm
Hannah Ashton. This episode is about love and relationships in college.
However you defind those words, it'll be really fun too,
(00:24):
because Hannah and I have pretty different experiences. And by
that I mean I have never had a boyfriend and
Hannah is in a long term relationship. So, Hannah, did
you think about romantic relationships before coming to college. Yes, well,
it's a little bit different for me because the two
people I've dated actually have been from my hometown. So
(00:45):
I've never met someone on campus or in my college city. UM,
and that that I've gotten into a relationship with. UM.
But I know that's that's different for a lot of
a lot of girls and guys who come to college
and who are looking for a relationship while they're here
in college. This year, I was actually introduced to a
mutual friend over the summer and we started talking and
that's my boyfriend. Now. We started dating before I headed
(01:07):
back to school, but before then um during my sophomore year.
I was single for over a year, so I don't
feel like looking for a relationship is usually my top
priority while at college. But what about you, Katie? Yeah,
I mean neither. It wasn't my priority either. I do
feel there is this unspoken pressure and also excitement around it.
I remember my first year at Cornell, so many new
(01:29):
couples were forming in the first week of college, and
I was like, wait, didn't y'all just meet each other
a week ago? That's so funny. I'm sure that a
lot of people going in are ready to meet new people,
and part of that is also meeting new people to date.
But I'm curious if you were nervous at all about
meeting new people, especially coming from out of the country. Yes,
that is such a good question because there are many
(01:50):
relationships that were new to me. So the first was
just friendship, and that was something I was very worried
about because before going to college I didn't know any
d from the school. It was also my first time
living in America as an international student, so I was
extra nervous. Spoiler, though, every first year's nervous about making friends,
so don't worry about it. And as for relationships, not really.
(02:14):
It has come very naturally in my experience with people
asking you out or going on date nights with our fraternities.
M For friendship wise, I actually went in with one
of my good friends from my hometown. We were roommates,
and so I felt a lot of security in having
her and being able to go to social functions with her,
and so I feel like that helped me be less
(02:35):
nervous because I was meeting new people while already having
a friend right beside me. But I know that it
can be very intimidating for people going into a campus
where they may be only visited with their parents on
a college tour um. But I'm thankful that a lot
of campuses are aware of this and they're always putting
together social events to kind of help with that. I agree,
I just threw myself in all the social events without first,
(02:57):
you know, orientation week. You know things have changed a
bit though since then. How do you feel about dating
during COVID? Yes, so from the dating perspective, the actual
dates you can go on are limited. You know, I
used to love going to the movies and going to
concerts on dates, but instead my boyfriend and I are
just trying to find ways to be creative. Um, we
(03:18):
like being outside since the weather has been great, we
go on walks, we'll go play tennis, or you know,
just order take out and watch movies always good too.
But from my single friends perspectives, I know that dating
to meet new people has been really tough. Like you
really aren't meeting new people, you aren't being introduced to
new people on your campus, new people in your city
through social events, and the whole online dating scene is
(03:39):
just awkward. So I know for many this was not
the dating scene they were expecting for this year plus
one on that I relate. It's also really challenging to
read people and their body language because you only see
their head and maybe half of their arm occasionally when
they're doing hand gestures. But for interview today, we will
find great answers to all our questions. I am so
(04:00):
excited for our guests. She is Shannon Foodrum. Shan Boodrum
is a sexologist and intimacy educator who teaches people how
to be more confident. She is a best selling author
of the Game of Desire and a well known host
of dating shows, including MTVS Guide to Sex and Quibes
Sexology with Shan Boodrum. Hey Shan, welcome to the show.
(04:21):
We can't wait to bring your knowledge and expertise on
all things sex and relationships to our listeners. To start,
could you share with us where you're from and what
your title sexologist is all about. Yes, I'm actually from Toronto, Canada.
I currently live in Los Angeles, but I am desperately
missing home right now. I haven't been back, all of
which is really really sad and scary to say. Sexologist
(04:45):
is the study of sex as it relates to biology, psychology, criminology, sociology,
et cetera. Sexologists can show up in a variety of fields,
kind of like nutritionist can. But I am a public
facing sex educator, so I don't do any one to
one work or research work. The job that I have
chosen and that I always knew I was meant for,
(05:05):
was to bring scholastic information that can be kind of
dry and boring around sex and add some lube to it,
make it fun, and then deliver it to the public.
My goal is to get the average person invested in
their sex and intimacy education. You once said that sex sells,
but sex education does not. Can you tell us about
(05:25):
what your sex at experience was like and how that
shaped you to become an educator in this space. Yeah,
I would love to hear from both of you what
your sex education was like, because it feels like sex
said is the longest running mutual joke. Like your grandma
can laugh about how ridiculous it was, your great grandma,
you can laugh about it. The way it's looking right now,
your kids are gonna laugh about it. It is laughable.
(05:47):
It's dismal. You know, if anything in life that it
plays a massive role in who you're going to be
and how it's going to shape your world. That you
only spend two weeks on, that's ridiculous. We're all sexual beings,
no matter how we decided to interact with that, and
we're given such limited information to have a successful go
at this area of our life. I always liken it
(06:08):
to almost like imagine if you never went to school,
you never got any education, you didn't get any of
the basic skills, and then at eighteen years old, they
were like, Okay, choose whatever job you want to be,
and now all of a sudden, you're a surgeon and
you've learned nothing about it. Except for like a couple
of weeks of stuff and two YouTube videos, and it's
your job to make sure someone's heart doesn't fail on
(06:29):
the table. That's what really happens with sex and relationships.
We give such limited information and we shove people out
there and say go out there, and good luck to you,
and we wonder why it's so catastrophic for so many people.
So my inspiration into this space was really my own
teen sex life. It was me being the surgeon, going
out there, trying my hand at it, doing incredibly terrible
(06:51):
and thinking, Okay, either one of two things, this is
a very awful place in life that I have no
business interacting with or I don't have the information tools
to interact with it in a successful, healthy way. So
let me try to see if I can educate myself
first to make a difference. And if that doesn't work,
then I'm going to become a nun. Obviously that didn't
(07:12):
work out that way because I'm not a nun. So
here we are today. I love how you said it's
a running joke because for me, what I remember was
I think my freshman year of high school, so I
was fourteen, and it was two lessons like two hour lessons.
It was one week and it was just mainly about
like women's periods and how to take care of yourself
(07:34):
and hygiene, and very little about actually um sex education.
And I think that also comes from living in a
very conservative area in city and it's just not being
a topic that most people want to talk about. But
what was your experience, Gatie, Yeah, I remember my first
time learning about this was in eighth grade. It was
a well inness class and I remember one time our teacher,
(07:55):
you know, like pulled out a condom and everybody was
just like, what is this and they were kind of joking.
They were like one of my friends actually gave it
to me. They were like, it's candy. Try it. And
I had no idea what it was like. I might
have really put my mouth in it if I had
not known. Yeah, it's it was interesting. That's funny. And
how old were you then, and you've never seen a
commum before? I had not. Yeah, I think I was
(08:16):
maybe eleven. But to be fair, I think the Philippines
is a pretty conservative country. As a woman of color
in the space, how have you defined your voice and
used it to differentiate yourself? Yeah, I think It's a
really big question because, especially when I first began, there
was nobody who looked like me, who was standing on
a soapbox to spread information. And for a long time,
(08:40):
that could make you feel unworthy, because you never walk
into rooms and feel welcome, people never automatically assume your authority.
You will have to always constantly fight for it. But
those were actually evidence is to me that I truly
needed to be here. And you know, honestly, I don't
know how I did this, but I never tried to
be something that I wasn't. I never tried to be
(09:02):
more scholastic, more uptight, more what the traditional sex educators were,
because I just acknowledged that those are not the people
that I was personally drawn to. And even when I
had done my research at nineteen years old to try
to educate myself, as much as I did find value
in the content, the context of how it was delivered
wasn't appealing to me. One of the things that really
(09:24):
stuck with me when I was thinking about my sex
education is I was really heavily influenced by porn, by
fiction books, and by movies because they were just so interesting.
Like that's to the point that you were making Katie,
what I was saying that sex sells with sex said
does not. Everything that utilizes sex as a tool for
telling a story. You're selling a product uses interesting people
(09:46):
and salacious storylines, and it's something that you actually want
to participate in. But sex said is facts, and it's faceless,
and it's dry, it's monotonous. Sex said, in many ways
is bad sex. So how was it that I could
incorporate the things at were attractive to me and add
some truth to it, and that I knew was my
unique space and my unique voice in my multiculturalism was
(10:08):
a big part of how I wanted my delivery to
stand out. And it's great you started so young too,
because a lot of our listeners are in that nineteen
to twenty year old range, And it just shows that
you can find what you're passionate about and have a voice,
and that can grow into a career no matter what
age you start. What age did did both of you
know that this is what you wanted to do? I
started creating content really young, but got into it and
(10:31):
started looking at job opportunities through sponsorships around thirteen or fourteen.
Same here. I started this when I was thirteen, and
Hen and I had actually met each other online when
we were that young too. You know, it took us
six years we're both nineteen and twenty right now to
actually reunite and make this podcast. I think it's amazing.
I think that you're always gonna look back at this
(10:51):
time in your life when you were this brave and
be like wow, Like, I draw inspiration from my nineteen
year old self all the time, because she had no
answers but only had conviction, and she had no guarantee
that any of this would work out, and there was
so much risk involved, not just risk of time and
risk of failure, but risk of judgment. She really threw
(11:12):
herself into that. On the note of challenging tradition, actually,
we'd like to dive into the gen Z culture of dating.
What do you think makes our generations approach different from
previous ones. I think obviously dating apps make the culture
extremely different because that's still a very new and emerging field.
The beauty of dating apps is everybody on there is
(11:33):
making an intention to say I want to meet somebody.
So I think that could be used for good in
many ways, because you're like, oh wow, like the accessibility
is there, and the awkwardness of like do you like
me or do not? Do you want to go to
the spring formal or not has removed in many ways
because it's either they swiped anywhere they didn't. But I
think the downside of that is not learning how to
(11:55):
flirt in person, not learning how to test people out,
but where you put yourself in a position where there's
any level of commitment there. So I can see that
it's vastly different in many ways, and some for the
better and some for the worst. I know what happens
a lot of times on these dating apps is ghosting.
And you talk about this in your book The Game
of Desire. Why do you think our generation is so
(12:17):
quick to ghost and not take any responsibility. Yeah, I
think that ghosting is seen as an indirect breakup. When
you date in person, there is some sense of shared accountability.
So if you know, Katie met somebody at a party
and they both know the person who threw the party,
ghosting is a little harder because you've got somebody in
the middle, whereas in on dating apps there's this beyond
(12:38):
that six degrees separation. There's no accountability partners between you
and this other person. So it's very easy to think
that cutting ties and not say anything is the best route,
especially since the chance of seeing each other again is
pretty low, and I think a lot of people think
that it's better that people prefer for them to do
it that way. Also, too, it's a way of keeping
(12:59):
the option open. So if I am seeing somebody, but
maybe I'm seeing somebody else, or perhaps I'm going through
a busy to whatever my excuses for not wanting to
pursue the relationship at this time. If I ghost, I
never technically close the loop, which leads a potential for
me to come back in four months and be like, hey,
how are you. But going back to the fact that
we don't get sex or intimacy education, we don't necessarily
(13:22):
get taught how to date or how to connect. Closing
the feedback loop is very detrimental to people. It becomes
very difficult to learn what you're doing that is off
putting or who you're attracting them. It may not necessarily
be the right fit for you, And so if people
aren't revealing their reasons for wanting to dissolve the connection,
then you learn nothing from it, and it was a
waste of time. For everybody. So we have to make
(13:45):
a commitment, I think, to each other to want to
help each other get better at this space that we
have such limited information on how to do. So, do
you have any tips then for how to date online?
Especially during COVID when that's the new normal. I think
a lot of people make the mistake of being like
I want to be in a relationship, and that's what
(14:05):
happens after. So what's the very next step? So my
very next thing that I want from this lifetime is
I want to get into a connection that actually makes
me feel good. I want to be around somebody who
has a similar hobby to me. I want to be
around somebody who helps hold me accountable because I'm starting
this new podcast, whatever it is like. So getting really
clear about what your next intention is for a partner,
(14:25):
how could romantic relationship in any capacity enhance your life,
and making sure you're looking for that when you're looking,
and then breaking that down into traits and qualities that
you think could bring out the best in you. Right now,
this is an area in life where everyone has been
told don't worry about it, don't focus on it too much,
don't stress, just be yourself just let it happen, just relax.
(14:48):
That's just not the average person story most people. If
you want to see progress, you have to have a process.
You have to invest in the time and energy. You
have to educate yourself to get skilled or have great
results in anything, there is a very specific process to
do so. And so if you're frustrated with the results
you're getting in dating and love, maybe it's time to
(15:09):
throw out that old adage that you're not supposed to
put energy towards controlling what the result is. I love
how you are reaching a demographic of one who want
more step by step guidelines because the world of dating
is so different when you're especially starting out in college,
like you're meeting all these brand new people, and so
I'd love to hear if you have any advice for
how college students can feel a little bit less nervous
(15:32):
going on virtual dates or in person once the time allows. Yeah.
I think anything that you do that you feel nervous
about because you don't do it enough, Anything that you
don't do frequently and you don't put yourself in that
realm to do is going to feel uncomfortable and unnatural
to you. My five steps in that book just loosely
are to know First, you have to know yourself. Secondly,
(15:53):
you have to try to change the things that you've
learned about yourself. That knowing process you know our self,
sabotaging and qualities they're you have to be in a
position where you're willing to learn new things, So trying
to pick up the information that you didn't have the
luxury of getting growing up. And then forth you have
to practice, and that doesn't look like failing at forty
(16:13):
first dates. Practicing could just mean trying out being a
bit more flirty in your everyday interactions, and practicing could
be engaging in chats a little longer on dating apps,
just so you could try out different conversation starters. So
if you feel uncomfortable doing anything, if you feel nervous
when the stakes are high, you have to look for
(16:35):
lower stakes scenario where you can express that part of
yourself and that way, when it actually matters, it almost
feels like second nature to you. But rest assured, the
more that you do something, the better that you're going
to get at that. And uh, that is so true,
not just for hockey, it's also true for sex, love
and dating. Yeah, I think just listening to you has
(16:58):
just made so much more excited. I think what you've
done with the approach to dating is, you know, take
this like framework that applies to so many things, and
you applied it to dating and made it seem so
much more approachable. So what advice do you have for
incoming first year students on hook up culture in college?
Focus less on the kinds of relationships that you want
(17:19):
and focus more on the kinds of experiences that are
going to make this year or this time in your
life meaningful, and that might end up leading you to
a relationship. And if it doesn't, at least you would
have known that you invited the kind of interaction that
was going to be positive to you into your world.
So the more small and direct and tangible your goals
can be, not things that you want to accomplish at
(17:41):
the end of year four. What is the goal that
you want in the next week, in the next two weeks, okay,
in the first week of school. I want to talk
to one person I find attractive. I want to introduce
myself to two people who I would feel too scared
to talk to and strike up a conversation with them.
If I do that, and I feel good about the
inter action, and now I want to hang out with
(18:01):
that person. And if I do that and I feel
bad about the interaction, now I want to talk to
two more people. So the more you can really simplify
and keep your goals not just for school but for
your intimate life really tangible and direct, and really focus
on what would bring out the best in me this year.
What am I going to look back on in fifteen
(18:21):
years and say like, wow, like I really had a
very enjoyable time during that space in my life. I
think only you can really answer that question. That's great
to keep in mind for anyone in school or out
of school, just those questions. So I'm sure at the
same time that many women want to have sex, some don't,
And when we associate sexual empowerment with women empowerment, it
(18:43):
can make those not interested in sex feel like they're
almost betraying their women empowerment values. And so I'd love
for you to talk about any advice you have for
women who don't want to engage in hookup culture but
maybe feel pressured to. Not having sex is empowering. That's
the whole point of empower ornament. It's to give you
the power. So honoring empowerment is really honoring yourself the
(19:05):
second that you are trying to fit into the mold.
That's the same thing as suppression, as regression. A lot
of times though, trying to force yourself to live an
ideal of a life that is quote unquote empowered but
not true to yourself is really no different than what
was happening one hundred years ago. So you are betraying
the word empowerment if you are trying to become anything
(19:28):
other than what authentically brings out the best in yourself.
And if you know that sex is not a priority
for you, or it goes against your priorities, just's not
an interest right now, or the quality of sexual experiences
that are available to you would not actually bring you pleasure, enjoyment,
and self fulfillment, and you're opting out that's really really powerful.
I love all that you just said. This question is
(19:49):
a bit more serious, but I think it's super important
to address. Sometimes when women face sexual assault, they are
criticized for wearing clothes that are quote to revealing or
quote they were asking for it. What do you think
about this burden falling on women and what do you
think the roles are of each party here. Yeah, I
think that that's goes back to toxic masculinity, this idea
(20:10):
that men have these natural drives that are uncontrolled and
impossible to curtail, so aggression, sexual prowess, and going after
what they want. So I think dismantling ideas around toxic masculinity,
not saying things like boys will be boys. Holding everyone
to a higher standard of respect, of consent, of empathy,
(20:35):
and of emotional intelligence is a big part of it.
And I say everyone because I mean everybody. Everybody should
be held to the standards of being responsible for not
just how they feel, but also having some semblance of empathy,
for not wanting to give anybody else a negative experience.
So there has definitely been positive movements I think towards
(20:59):
a world where people are dismantling ideals around toxic masculinity,
and as a result, women don't have to feel like
I am not only responsible for my own behavior, I
am responsible for not inciting negative behavior out of others
simply by the way that I'm existing. The future is
where we don't have to think that way, but the
(21:19):
present is that we still somewhat do. And so employing
the buddy system where if you're going out to a
party or you're going out in general, people know where
you are, what you're doing, and the two of you
have a conversation the kind of experiences you want to
have that night. And so if somebody gets really drunk
and they see you getting pulled in a direction that
you expressed earlier you don't want to, they can be
(21:41):
an accountability partner for you. I think also to protecting
yourself with things that you can walk around with on
campus to make sure that you're safe is important. Set
yourself up for safety that that still holds true if
it hasn't already been clear. Hannah, and I love how
you champion women having standards, knowing what they on and
not being afraid to get it. I think one fear,
(22:03):
at least for me and perhaps many listeners, is what
if we don't find someone who meets those standards. And
I know women face a lot of pressure too because
we have a timer when we're often told to settle
because we don't want to live forever alone either. So
how do you navigate that if you live in a
city with forty million people or even four hundred thousand people,
(22:25):
and nobody meets your standards. It's you, honey, that's first
and foremost. I live in l A. And it's so
fascinating to me how many people here will easily say
there are no good people to date in l A.
If you're experiencing that much failure and that much disappointment,
change the environment that you're seeking. People reconfigure what your
standards are. I'm really highly suggest people limiting your standards
(22:49):
as well too. To three things. If you haven't necessarily
put the work into educating yourself and becoming a better flirt,
into learning the artist, abduction, into learning how to date
number two, if you a bit more education, you could
pick five things. So that to be said, I would
look at what my three to five things are that
I'm trying to find in a person, and then sometimes
two a matter of doing the math right. If I
(23:10):
live in a town of ten thousand people, and on
my list of three to five things, I'm looking for
somebody who was university educated, who is more spiritual than religious,
who has no desires to have kids, and has a
love for travel. It's a high novelty seeker. I've already
just like X out mathematically a solid people in my
(23:33):
town now have to consider who's of age, who's available,
and who's of the gender that I'm attracted to, and
so in the end I'm left with the pool of
five different people. And that's when you made to say, okay,
based on how like stringent my standards are, I may
have to relocate cities to find the person for me.
So those are probably your two options. Is one to
change your standards or to to change your location to
(23:56):
where your standards are more mathematically likely to come to fruition. Shan,
thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us
today and leaving us all just more confident about how
to navigate relationships during this time. To all our listeners,
you do not want to miss more of A. Shan's
wisdom and story times on our YouTube channel and Instagram
at Shan Booty. Her book is the Game of Desire
(24:17):
and we will have it in the show notes as well.
Thank you Shan, Thank you Hannah Ashton, thank you Katie.
Well Hannah, what was your takeaway? There are so many?
One was not only is sex education lacking in our
young adult lives, but she used the term intimacy education,
which is also lacking or mostly non existent. Yet when
(24:40):
you think about it, relationships are a huge part of
our lives, and although we may get lots of career
training in college, we equally need guidance and help navigating relationships, dating,
and intimacy. And I think that's interesting that it's not
really talked about in UM an academic setting. So that
is where I'm very thankful that we can look to
online creators and mentor until our education hopefully offers this
(25:02):
in the future. What about you, Katie, I agree, and
for me, this was a great wake up call. I
think in high school I was very idealistic, hopeless romantic
because I read too much y A young adult books.
I still do, but I am more in touch with
reality now. I think relationships can be beautiful, but sometimes
they're over glorified and without intentionality in a relationship, which
(25:26):
is what Shannon talked a lot about, it can lead
to people getting hurt. I'll leave you listeners with this
new term. My friend tag me in on a meme
procol sexual, which is someone who only feels romantic attraction
to people they can never be in a relationship with,
such as celebrities and fictional characters. Maybe you'll relate to Yes,
definitely d MS. We'd love to hear. But thank you
(25:48):
guys so much for listening. We are your hosts. I'm Hannah.
You can find me at Miss Hannah Ashton on Instagram.
And I'm Katie you can find me at a Loha
kadi x on Instagram. The Secret syllabis It was created
by The Female Quotation in partnership with iHeartMedia and co
produced by the Female Quotient and Wonder Media Network. The
f Q is committed to advancing equality and elevating women
(26:10):
from college campuses to the corner office. You can find
out more at www dot the Female Quotient dot com.
See you guys after class. Hi
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