April 8, 2020 • 41 mins
Author of The Second Life of Tiger Woods, Michael Bamberger, joins Geoff Shackelford in the opening episode and shares what the process was like to write and publish the book. The guys also discuss the weight of Tiger's 2019 Masters. Tiger opening up, Norman's relationship with Tiger and lastly, they talk about where golf will be down the line.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Shack Show is a production of I Heart Radio.
Hey everybody, thanks for downloading The Shack Show and giving
this a shot. This is a new podcast. It's been
in the works for a little bit, but of course
(00:22):
world events have changed my perspective on how a podcast
should sound and what we should be doing right now,
and um, if there is an opportunity in this dreadful
crisis we are facing, it is an opportunity to speak
to some of the more interesting people on the planet
who have some spare time right now to discuss their books,
their work, their life, the game, where the game is headed,
(00:45):
and this sport we all love. So without further ado,
Michael Bamberger is my guest today. He is, of course
the senior writer at golf dot com, Golf magazine, longtime
sports illustrated writer, author of The Green Road, Home to
the links Land, which was seminal book for me, uh
this golfing Life, The Swinger with Alan Schipnuk, a novel
about tiger woods and Men in Green, about cattying. He's
(01:08):
just a fantastic writer, one of my real heroes in
the profession of golf writing. I love what he does.
He has his very uh distinctive voice, and he is
uh somebody who has adapted to the internet to print,
but of course, really at his core he is a
fantastic writer of books. And he now has a brand
(01:29):
new book from Avid Reader Press called The Second Life
of Tiger Woods. It is a sensational read. It's a
difficult read at times because if you are a fan
of Tiger Woods, Michael's incredible reporting gets to the heart
of some very very difficult topics and that run up
to the nineteen Masters last year. But of course it
(01:51):
ends on that wonderful happy note of the great comeback
by Tiger Woods, which was one year ago this week
and Augusta, Georgia. And it is a book I highly recommend.
Go to Jeff shackle for dot com. I'll have links
to Amazon or to uh some other options for buying
the book that maybe helped independent booksellers. So, without further ado,
(02:11):
my conversation with Michael Bamberger. Michael, I want to ask
you first about the book and your process, and not
in a gotcha kind of way, just as a writer.
I'm curious how the Second Life of Tiger Woods came about.
When you started thinking about doing this book and was
it your idea, Did your editor come to you? How?
(02:33):
How did that all come together? Yet the Uh, I
went to the editor like all of us, you know
who covered Tiger Woods close to we're reading tea leaves
all the time. And something to happen to be at
the Honda Tournament in two thousand and eighteen ship So
he played well. That was the first time he played
really well after well, after the surgery and after the
(02:55):
memorial they arrest and then he came back and played
the West Coast in two thousand and eighteen, and there
were interesting signs there. I'm sure he would have seen
some of that. But then at the Honda Tournament, the
first off of the Florida Swing, Uh, he was swinging
beautifully uh, and the irons were majestic, and it was
really struck by all that. But the thing that really
(03:16):
got me was, Uh, Sunday when it was over, and
uh he could have been highly annoyed because he was
semi contending and didn't close well. But then he made
some sort of off handed comment about the kid that
he played with, twenty one year old Sam Burns, and
how Sam had played his way into the Tampa event,
and honest to God, I'd never heard him say those
(03:37):
selfless in all my life. Like, I didn't even know that.
I didn't even realize the Tiger knew how that works,
you know, how you get into the next week's event
if you don't have status. So anyway, I was struck
by that. And I think from that moment on, I
was watching Tiger with a different uh, with a different
set of eyes, really more keenly. And later that year,
(03:59):
but before he won the two or Championship, I called
my uh, my editor, young man named Joe p. Froy
Adler and uh and suggested that that that Tiger's come back,
for Tiger's efforts here might be worthy of a book,
having no idea that, of course, that he would win
the tour championship with the Masters, and he edited another
(04:19):
book on Tiger. So what was his reaction? He had
had another book on Tiger, right, He he edited the big,
thick biography of of Tiger written by Army Knitain and
Jeff Benedict. He was enthusiastic immediately. Uh, he's very interested
in golf. He's a good player himself, and uh, and
there was no fight of any sort. I mean, he
(04:42):
was like, yeah, but let's see where it goes. Uh.
So anyway, I was going down the road before the
Tour Championship and then I've written about this uh and
mentioned this before, but some will being used by it.
I know I have a personality numerous personality defects, and
one of them was very became very are evident on
that Sunday afternoon at last year's Masters, because I was
(05:03):
actively rooting for Francesco Mullinary. Even though any seen person
would say, and it would be true, wouldn't a Tiger
victory be good for you and your book? The answer
is yes, And still I found myself rooting for Francesco Mullinary.
And I don't know how you feel about him, Jeff,
but I'm just so taken with the guy and how
he goes about his business and everything about him. But
also I just loved the idea of seeing character being
(05:28):
revealed if Tiger got close and didn't close, although we
did see a little bit out of the British Owman's PGA.
But anyway, but especially at the Master's been away that
so that all came about interesting. What are you a
mulinary buff yourself? Jeff? I am? I am, but I
I root for the story. I'm from the Jenkins School
of of golf writing, and I did root for the story.
(05:49):
And I still not quite over Carnews Steve Frankly, because
I went the whole way or most away with Tiger
and and he played so magnificently that day. But I
also have this incredible admiration for Molinari because Tiger missed
two shots essentially, and Mollinari didn't miss one that day.
And I actually, one of the rare times I've gotten
to talk to Tiger one on one, I mentioned that
(06:11):
and how unbelievably difficult the golf course played that day,
and how incredible his round of was given the conditions,
the firmness, and how the slightest, slightest mistake was exposed.
Where did you get Tiger one on one? Oh? That
was a Tory Pines in twenty uh nineteen, and he
(06:34):
was it was a pro am and you know how
it is in the program. He gets, uh the front nine,
he's engaged with the people, and bet about the tenth
or eleventh hole, he gets bored and it's a good
time to kind of walk out and see if he
wants the chat. And he was very chatty that day
because I had asked press conference question about the shot
he most enjoyed from the previous year, and it wasn't
the answer I would have given. He he he wanted
(06:56):
to know what I thought of the answer, which, like
you have noted, is kind of unusual for him. Um.
I didn't want to tell him that the shot he
hit at the Torch Championship I didn't see because I
was sitting at a cafe in Paris getting ready for
the Ryder. Uh. I was more intrigued by the two
shots he hit at Carnousti on the sixth hole. They're
they're the two greatest shots I've ever seen in person.
(07:16):
That was in the winter of two those and so
before he won the Master's right, that's very interesting for you.
It's uh, it's exciting, you know, no matter what you
think about Tiger. You know, we love golf and h
and you can't help but be admire his achievements in
the game and and to get something directly from him,
especially on a you know, with the deeper into golf,
(07:38):
it is the more comfortable. It's it's exciting, um, to
your but to your but to your point, to your point,
he he observes everything, and he knew that I was
out there watching, and he knew from one of my
questions after the round, because I was the one who
asked about the heckler on the eighteenth, which was one
of the scariest things I've also seen in golf, and
I had asked him if the RNA had had issued
(07:59):
in a pology that because it was on his back
swing and it was awful and the guy was scary looking,
and his answer was f no, he was. He was
still a little hot about that one, so but he
was very proud. It was interesting. He was very proud
of that that day at Carnoustie. That was the thing
that came through. And Dan Kilbridge, my colleague at the
time of golf week, was was with me then for
(08:20):
part of that chatting and uh that that came we
were we were kind of noticing that that that that
way that golf course played and even though he didn't win,
that he had he had immense pride about that performance
and everyway as he should. It was. It was phenomenal.
It was exciting, and Mulinary made a very interesting insight,
(08:40):
uh with me, but I'm sure with others as well
about Tiger that week was that he had his two
children up there, so I'm sure you wouldn't thin while
you were working around with Erica and Mulinary said he
may have just wanted it too much. And that's like
a lot of things in life from the one too
too much. Uh, you can't get it. Do you remember
what Tiger said in response to a question that Doug Ferguson,
(09:02):
same question Doug Ferguson asked him at at mcdne in
two thousand nineteen after the Masters, what was your most
memorable shot of the year? T shot seventeen You cover
in the in the book a little bit, and I
just found that really interesting because you know, without that
tree there, it's obviously it's a challenging and extremely important
(09:25):
t shot. But I don't take it lightly. I just
he you know, he had a great drive there, but
he hits you know, he hits a lot of good
drives these days. Where he occasionally was it is probably
more accurately, but it was just interesting to me that
that would be the shot that stood out. But you know,
as he made the case that's a will let him
when you know, once he drove it in play on seventeen,
he wasn't gonna make a bogie. They're very more likely
wasn't going to he was gonna win that Master's tournament.
(09:47):
So it's just interesting in how his mind were. He
has a very interest in ynd He in general, I
think he's not given enough credit for that. Well he
hasn't shown him. Uh, and he has started to give
insights in the last couple of years that I think
reveal more of that. And you cover that in the
book a little bit, especially as you noted on I
listened to another podcast you were on the Trap Draw.
(10:10):
You had a great chat with the lane up guys
and you. He has really kind of opened up more
on the especially on the golf side. That Trap Draw podcast.
I wasn't sure if I was in it. It was great,
Thank you. He has he he has opened up more,
and uh, you know, sometimes we want too much from
(10:34):
any sort of celebrity as it is. Uh, But the thing,
you know, and I think it's important to remember that
they're human beings with extreme skill and expertise, often in
one very very narrow area that they may or may
not even be good about talking about. So like if
we got Jack Nicholson one on one. You you probably
met him or you know, probably seen him around, and
(10:54):
let could could Jack Nicholson go deep on the art
of acting? Maybe he could, but maybe he couldn't. Maybe
he's just as about that way and it's just not
in him to do it. Well, you know, you could
say the same about Tiger. But what you and I
will know, and most of your listeners would know, if
you ask Tiger a golfy question, he'll go deep with you. Yeah.
(11:15):
I've had some really uh fun moments the last couple
of years asking a kind of golfy question that you
since other writers are like, oh great, and he just
gives these fantastic answers and it's it's uh. And sometimes
I've asked them just because the questions are going in
the direction it's like, well, this is this is this
is going to make him annoyed. We need to get
(11:35):
back to the game here. Um. But hey, on that
topic of Jack Nicholas, you reminded me of I just
have to tell a quick moment at the memorial a
few years ago. He was talking about Mark Wahlberg in
this new water that he launched, and I just had
no idea about Nicholas Jack and Barbara's affinity for movies.
And I threw out a question because because Wahlberg had
(11:58):
the new h Onto Raj movie coming out that he
was a producer of and obviously was part of the show.
And I basically sarcastically said to Mr Dicklis, you're gonna
go see Entourage And he looked at me with this
look and he goes, well, of course I am. I
didn't realize that I'd Scott Tolly told me later in
(12:20):
Barbara got out of the theater in the afternoon and
get a big thing of popcorn and see everything. How
about that? Well, Jack, Jack and Barber had the life
that a lot of us aspired to, which is um
uh Italian restaurants in non just script script malls and movies.
I don't know what more you could a flat screen.
Let's take a quick break and then I want to
talk to you again about something related to the book.
(12:42):
We were just discussing, all right, So you mentioned the
t shot on seventeen, but in the book the thing
that really stood out to me, uh And I assume
because you did not speak to Tiger at link for
this book or get the opportunity a d um you
go through the thirteenth whole t shot in the final round.
(13:05):
I I was fascinated by the observation you had that
that you believe he thought he overcooked it? Um And
I'm anxious to watch the rerun on a big screen
and see all that I was watching on the little
screen the press center with the tracer I think on
Amen Corner Live and I couldn't believe the line he took.
But you you believe that was that was really the
moment of the final round. And from what I gather
(13:28):
in the book, yeah, it was something weird. Well we
know something weird happened on that T shirt on thirteen
Because I tell me, Jeff, if your experience is different,
I've never known Tiger to try to hit his slice
over those trees on the on the on the left
like a left handed golfer might too. I mean, I mean,
he he talks about, you know if it really uh
(13:52):
plane draw shots down the right side, typically with the
three wood, but uh, this day was wet and he
hit driver and uh it was sort of a go
moment for him in the tournament. And is his right
foot slipped and he says that very clearly. Uh in
the In the broadcast, Tony Finow, who's standing four ft
from him. Uh uh said that he hit sort of
(14:13):
a toe hook there, which is unusual to think that
that's what he said, But anyway, you can you can
see the ball in the telecast. It's going, it's going
above those trees for a while. Then it looks like
it's in those trees for a while. It looks like
it maybe ticked off of something. Uh. And then it
winds up in the in the middle of the thirteenth
(14:35):
parailh And he hit an adarn and two button and
he made four. It kind of goes to the point
that Tiger used to make all the time, and people
mocked him for it. But it's true. To win, you
have to get lucky. You you know, if you win
by twelve, you haven't gotten lucky. But if you win
by one, something has gone your way. And uh And
that looked like a T shot. You don't typically you
(14:55):
don't typically slip your right foot slip on a T shot. Uh.
And you wind up three ten cards in the middle
of the fairway. Yeah. Uh And then he and then
he said he tossed his gum out into the Azaleus
is sort of a fit of um thinking he had
messed up. He looked to be disgusted with the shot.
(15:17):
And one thing we know is that Tiger's spatial expression
do not lie. And in that that part of the
book again, in the book is just uh, some of
the reporting and detail is just so sensational. Congratulations you
you well, you're very nice too. But it's nice to
you to say, because you know this material as well
as anybody, so to hear that from you it means
(15:38):
a great deal. So thank you well. And as I
note in the intro here, it's it's tough at times
because your detail is you you really hit on a
lot of the tough times too. But I think it's
important to remember where he was. Um. But one of
the things you you you did was you track down
the CBS cameraman. What why did you What was your
interest in doing that? Who was the guy who was
(15:58):
following the ball? Just to kind of have some insight
into the master's broadcast or was there something else? Well, no,
because because this guy had well he had a real
time view of it. And if if you actually look
at his camera work, you can see that that ball
is going into the trees. And then he kind of
has to make a jerky little move. I don't mean
(16:19):
to overstate it, yeah, but you know it is it's
like you know the words, It's not that. Look at
that ball is just sailing through the air. There's no
jerky little move. But here and he thinks and and
and he you know, this is none of this is definitive.
It just this is the forensic evidence available to us.
I don't think Tiger would necessarily know. I don't know
(16:41):
how he really really good enough, but his feeling was
that it may have, you know, as can something happens
a ball hits it a twig or or or a branch,
and it kind of can change direction in a in
a weird, unexpected way. Because my question him is you
know what caused you to sort of move your camera
like that? And uh so, so he gave me his
(17:03):
best analysis of it, and I've offered my best analysis
of it. And I think it's interesting that you've that
You're the first person to ask me about that part.
But it is interesting because he got he made for
there and it could have been a higher number. Yeah,
I just thought that moment and uh and the moment
on the twelfth Green when he when he went up
(17:24):
and did his clean up work and leaned on the potter.
I was so mad. Bill Pennington wrote a great piece
on that. It was like, to me, that was just
the moment that in that final round when you saw
he had his his full on mojo back or whatever
you want to call it. The gamesmanship was there in
court and Stark contrast to what was going on on
(17:45):
the other side of the creek and Jeff just to
finish them in that one thought you just made that.
Part of that mojo, of course, is the effect he
has and other people, And for Mulinari, who's one of
the most intelligent people you could ever mean to say
nothing of his intelligence as a golfer, for him to
mess up fifteen the way he did it was like,
that wasn't mullinary And I wondered what degree that, you
(18:06):
know is the tiger. But you know, there's they're tied still.
People forget this, but they're tied for the tournament. Standing
on Mullinari after his trouble on twelve, made a birdie
on thirteen, so they were tied on fifteen. T and
uh And it's only after fifteen that it's really sort
of half game over at that point, at least for mullinary.
So to what degree did did the higher mojo that
(18:26):
you just speak of effect Mullinari's play on fifteen? Yeah?
Now it was. It was a sensational final round. Um.
One other thing, And I mean, there's so much in
the book that I would love to cover, but I
naturally have to uh target the piece which now part
(18:46):
of it. And I'm sure if it was a book
excerpt or you wrote a new piece on on Greg
Norman and the um because I just love the visual
of him dropping off the the note at the house afterwards. Um,
but but tell, uh, tell me a little bit about
the Norman note and then that this sort of they
(19:08):
run they run into each other later on and and
have a nice chat. Um. Is there something to read
into that? I mean, better than just kind of the
fun of these two living right down the street from
each other but not being super close. Well, I do
think there's something wading a job because it's like, uh,
you know, everything in the in the human condition, Uh,
(19:30):
people change and relationships evolve, and uh, you know how
things were at one point doesn't mean that's how they're
going to be forever. But just to give your listeners
who wouldn't know this history, UH, well, very briefly, Greg
Norman was the best player in the world, you know,
by the World Golf ranking bully. He was replaced by
(19:50):
Tiger Woods. Uh, the same Tiger Woods who UH when
it employed Butch Harmon, Greg Norman's former teacher, UH hired
Steve Williams, Greg Norman's former caddy, moved to or moved
to Orlando, as Norman did early in his career, then
moved to Jupiter Island as Norman did, started with I
(20:11):
MJ and then broke away as Norman did. Hired Norman's
estate manager. I don't know if I'm using the right
germ there in others there were a lot of things
that Norman did first that Tiger did later um and
Norman Uh. And there's a whole history here that I
don't pretend to know animily at all. Norman has always
(20:32):
been mystified as to why Tiger, who has been very
deferential to certainly Arnold and Jack in particular, UH, has
not been deferential and really never even paid UH any
sort of particular respect. Really, the fact of what Norman
did in his career and uh uh And I think
(20:55):
Norman has never said this to me, and I don't
think it would be in his character to say so.
I think I well, I would say I picked up
on her, you know, the basic human emotion of her
from him. But anyway, so then just to fast forward.
There's a lot more to it than that, but just
a beast forward here. So then Tiger wins the two
thousand nineteen Masters. Uh. Norman lives a mile or two
away from him. Uh. He hand delivers a congratulatory note
(21:19):
and Tiger just doesn't respond to it. Well, Tiger might
have his reasons. Tiger made was overwhelmed, who knows, but
he didn't uh. And Norman was like, you know, I
think annoyed. And I could understand why. Uh, I could
understand why. So just let's live it at that for now.
And then so that was May of two thou nineteen.
And then in January two they saw each other in
(21:42):
South Florida and Norman told me that they that they
don't see each other very often at all. And Norman
and Tiger told me, excuse me, Norman told me that
Tiger told him. Uh, I got to know it. I
appreciate it very much. And then Norman told me that
they had a warm, real conversation and really the way
(22:02):
the way that Greg said it was, it was actually
the warmest, most revolutory, most real conversation that they've ever had,
probably I'm guessing about twenty five years of knowing each other.
So I just thought that was interesting. So, yes, it's
in the book. And then I followed up on it
more recently and golf dot com. Yeah, well, Greg said
some tough things about Tiger during his scandal, but I
would bet the thing that probably bothers him more if
(22:25):
I had to guess, was this Tiger also patterned so
much of his business approached after things Norman did, and
and uh, and knowing Norman's pride in his business and
how he's built it out, that probably uh. With with
Bernal too, what do you just last thing before we
take a quick break, what what do you make of
where Greg Norman is in in life and golf and business.
(22:48):
And because he's you're not a big social media guy,
but you probably are well aware that he can get
a little bit strange, uh these days on those mediums. Well,
it's interesting because my one on one experiences with Norman
are extremely positive if I'm a very uh intelligent and
engage in person, and uh I think I know he
(23:12):
likes to take off the shirt and he showed it off.
But but you know, being only a few years younger
than Norman myself, I think it's admirable to take care
of yourself. That the way that he does, uh this
this World Golf League is what do they call that?
Joff Premier League? Premier Golf League, as you well know
and your listeners would would likely know, was essentially an
(23:35):
idea that he had twenty plus years ago. Uh So
I'm sure you know he's obviously very not obviously two
people don't follow, but if people do follow me that
he's been very involved in and trying to get it
off the ground. Uh. But I think without just sort
of guessing here, I think it's hard for anybody who's
enjoyed the lime lights he has uh then to have
(24:02):
a less active role in the world and is and
is trying to stay role evant as as many people
are sure, I don't know. My own experiences of Norman
have been extremely, extremely positive, and I feel very fortunate
that they've got the relationship that I do with him. Yeah, No,
I think he's a fascinating guy. And it's he's just
(24:22):
uh and and and has so much to give back
to the game, but he can be it seems like
at times more concerned with the brand or the business
than than kind of sharing at this point what what
he's got, which is so much. And he was such
an incredible player, you know, my, my, my generation, my age.
It's amazing by the way that you have to throw
(24:42):
that out that he was the best player in the world.
But it's it's amazing how quickly people forget these days.
Um so uh, just let's take a brief pause from
the Shack Show for another word from our sponsors, and
I want to get back to our conversation with Michael
Bamber Michael lasting on the book. Um, the reaction of
(25:14):
any kind from the Tiger camp yet the book's been
out about a week now. Well, I haven't heard peep.
As you know, the one person you might have expected
to hear from would have been Ben Greenspen. Tiger's a
long time spokesperson. Uh, he was no longer there. But
I haven't hear No, I haven't heard from anybody at all. Yeah, Um, alright,
(25:36):
A couple of other things just while I have you
and wanna I know, um you you cover a lot
on the rules in the book with Tiger and his
conflicted relationship at select times in his career with the
rules of golf, and and um. But but one of
the things that I've I've wished he could be more
(25:56):
outspoken about is is and and he has been great
the last two years, and he sticks to a tight
script on technology. But I'm curious, just kind of in
looking at his career, if you can think of a
player and I would, I would lump in Phil Mickelson
and uh, just some of the guys at that age
group as having had to make more adjustments to changes
(26:20):
in in equipment than any time in the history of
the game. Do you think do you think that's a
fair statement, Jeff, You'd have to be really nerdy in
the game to have the conversation that you and I
are going to have right now. I would say, among
the many things about you know, who's the most underrated
golfer of all time, it's it's Tiger Woods. Yeah. Uh.
(26:40):
And one of the most underrated aspects of his of
his time in the game is the adjustment he made
from the steel shop Wooden headed the lot of ball
game that he grew up in to this game, had
the equipment never changed, had been if you look at
what Hogan won within the fifties and say what what
David Graham won with that arian in UH in the
(27:01):
in the eighties, UH, which was what Tiger learned the
game on versus what Tiger won the game within two thousands,
it is a sea change. Had there never been a
change in the equipment, Tiger to one way more than anyone,
because this modern equipment has been a tremendous equalizer. UH.
And we won't go into all the reasons why that's true.
(27:22):
It would it would take too long. So I feel
and maybe you feel the same that that is a
totally underrated UH aspect of his game. Because here he is,
you know, by far the greatest shot maker of his generation,
certainly one of the greatest shot makers of all time.
But it's not the shot making game that he grew
up on that he's been so successful with. So there's
(27:43):
a there's a tremendous amount going on there. And and
it would be really interesting to hear Tiger going that
because what he could say, but he might leave it
to people like you, or to say it for him
is he might have twenty five majors and a hundred
tour wins if it was still some ball for someone
head and a lot of ball. Yeah, And he can't
(28:04):
say that, And I think I admire that about him,
that he's thought it through that even though that's probably
how he feels to put that out there, he would,
he would take a lot of heat for it, and
it is up to people like us to point it out. Lauren.
His chapter with Lauren Rubinstein on technology is pretty incredible,
and I hope in this next book he he does more.
But I mean, you know, Jack Nicholas takes heat for
(28:27):
for griping about the golf ball. It's it's a very
strange thing that and Bobby Jones did it. So the
three greatest UH golfers slash thinkers and talkers and and
people who put their thoughts out there. And Hogan obviously
was was more reserved, but those three they've all had
this view, and Jones was never mocked for his views.
(28:49):
I don't think although there's a defensiveness. You've probably read
some of his his thoughts on technology, and there is
kind of a defensiveness I don't think he was getting
slaughtered for it. But but Jack and I have been
not vilified, but but mocked. You know, you've talked to people.
Jack couldn't make a ball himself, so he wanted this
ball done and then this way, and uh, it'll be
(29:11):
better for you for him. And that's always bizarre to
me that that people see it that way when you
really look at their comments. I am absolutely certain that
everything Jack has ever said about the golf ball, which
goes back three were more more years, is rooted in
what he really believes to be true. I don't think
there's anything to mock at all. And Tiger too, and
(29:34):
I think both of them too. It's when they started
doing golf course design and even heightened their their interest
in the topic and their views. But um so, after
the Players Championship was canceled, you wrote a column about
your drive back north um and thinking a lot about
where we are in the game, and I'll put a
link in the blog post I do on my my
(29:55):
site and the show notes. But since then, well for
kind of your thoughts on that that that you collected
while you were driving about the game and then and
then what's happened since has obviously been quite incredible. Um,
I'm curious just your your thought on where golf is
going to be uh down the line, and your sense
(30:17):
of how it survives all this. Well thanks for noting that, Jeff. Uh,
that was right in that period when we were first
going to this unknown period of this coronavirus and what
it would mean for daily lives short germ meeting German
long term, and the feeling I had right you know,
I just certainly didn't want to get in a plane
and that, you know, the feeling I had driving home
(30:38):
was that thank God for the American trucking American truckers,
and thank God for thats in our interstate system, because
the grocery stores were loaded with all the goods you
could possibly want. And uh, there was not going to
be panicked because we're going to have food and medicine,
you know, the very things that the starting point of
(31:02):
of our civil society. Really Uh So that that was
one thought, and then, uh, you know, I think this
is so so obvious, but I do think anyone who's
serious about the game, whether you're deaf or like I am,
or you know, or that betterflai like your Jeff, for
Terry Woods is that the basic qualities of golf will
(31:22):
serve us well for getting through this difficult period, which
I would regard as as as patients as planning as
being both optimistic, uh and realistic. You have to have
both to to to achieve anything in golf, no matter
what you're trying to achieve, and I think that's gonna
be true for this very difficult period too. So I
think I think we use golfers and fure most of
(31:43):
people listen to this, maybe all of them are are golfers.
So I think we can take some strengthens from solves
from that and you know, maybe try to extend it
to our families or whatever it might be the case.
But I think those ingredients are gonna be extremely important
to getting through this. As for the for the game
that you know this will be in. Of course, it's
(32:05):
tragic for the for the you know, the tens of
thousands and hundreds of thousands of people who have died
or will die from this dreadful disease. But in the
grand scheme of things, as a human race, we're going
to come through this thing and our game will come back.
I hope. I'm not getting to one winded here, Jeff.
But but just the one. But on the simple everyday
(32:28):
game that I know you and I both love. I
hope this will somehow translate into a simpler, more informal
game for everyday play. Carry on bag, carry fewer clubs,
you don't need rakes in the traps, play past, or
play with fewer than four people. Play a cheaper game,
player browner game. Uh, play a shorter game, shorter courses,
(32:52):
less time out there. It should be part of your life,
but it shouldn't overtake your life. I don't think. I
don't mean to use the word should in a preacher way.
I'm really just making for myself. As for the As
for the Pro game, you know, the Pro game is
a great game, and it brings a lot to uh
literally millions of people, I mean millions of people across
(33:12):
the world watch the Master's tournament where the golfers are
not and get some element of enjoying, a significant element
of enjoy from it. I don't see this pandemic when
we get back to our normal lives, changing the Pro
Game in any appreciable way, except for maybe this is
significant that there should be greater everyday appreciation for what
(33:35):
they have because it's a gift, and really it's a
gift from us, the people who pay their way, but
you know, buying the goods in the first place to them,
and I think that has been lost to some degree reason.
I mean, they're all typically very polite and very respectful,
but I don't know that there's really core understanding that
(33:55):
it's ordinary people, ordinary golfers that make their lives. So,
you know, you hopeful, hope for one of the this
is getting too longer, but no, no, no, I'm loving
this is fascinating. You're also that one of the things
that will come out of this pandemic is you know,
the very lesson that to play our town and you know,
other arts try to teach is can you actually really
(34:17):
appreciate your life as it is. It's a lifelong challenge,
it's an age old challenge. And uh and and you
hope that's that's something something good along those lines might
come out of this. Wow, that's wonderful. Yeah, I'm in
full agreement. So how are you passing the time? Are you? Yeah?
I know you like a lot of different kinds of
music and obviously to read are you what are you reading?
(34:39):
Is there anything in particular. Well, I'm doing a lot
of I'm doing I'm doing a lot of that. I
had a funny thing yesterday where so we we live,
my family and I live with UH in the in
the city limits of Philadelphia. But but it's not urban
really where we are anyway, the golf courses are closed
here in Pennsylvania. So I took my shy bag in
my sandway into a park and there's a big meadow,
(35:02):
uh where there's some uh you know, just a nice
grassy meadow and uh and it just hit some sandwich
shuts there last night, and I was and I was like, oh,
this is so much fun. You don't do about the
second I duft to feel. He was like, you know,
the red ass comes up, like, you know, trying to
strengthen my grid doing all this stuff. It's like, what's
(35:23):
wrong with you? Why do you suck so bad? It's
like absolutely nothing had changed. And it was a music
to me that I was way in. Yeah. So you know,
we've been busy at work, you know, thankfully, I'm very glad.
Howard Millstein, our boss, is U committed to Golf magazine
and committed to golf dot com. Uh Uh. So we're
all writing a lot, we're producing a lot, and and
(35:45):
I think and maybe you feel the same way. Uh.
I think it's important to give people an outlet away
from COVID nineteen, which can be really overwhelming. So we're
trying to do that golf dot Com and I'm sure
we'll be doing that in Golf magazine as well. Yeah,
I've been uh following your You and Alan are are
covering a a mock Masters, so we'll see how that
(36:06):
plays out. I I have toned down my coverage of
first world matters down to kind of the scheduling stuff.
I just don't uh I feel it's appropriate at this time.
But as you say, I'm starting a podcast and and
you're the first guest, and I do think podcasting is
a great opportunity to kind of not uh think too
(36:27):
much about the times and do think, let your your
mind wander a little bit. Um. Do you just curious
you had some thoughts on music? Uh in that that
trap drop pot. Do you listen to music when you write?
You know, it's interesting you say that because uh, typically
I don't, but in this period, uh, I have been
(36:50):
listening to just our our local possible music station. I'm not.
I grew up in a home where there was a
lot of classical music. I'm not knowledgeable about it at all. Uh,
but you know, it is a tense time and there
are times that, Yeah, if you're something human being, I
don't know how you couldn't have pangs of anxiety. And
(37:10):
it's just remarkable the common effect ROMs and data Oosky
and you know various others UH have had. I mean,
even though I'm not knowledgeable about that music. So I
had been listening to that pretty much all the every
day actually since this thing started. Whatever. How about your subject?
Do you find yourself listening to more music or do
(37:31):
you listen to music when you're right both? Yeah, I'm
more of a I'm not a huge I'm like you.
I'm not an expert on jazz, but I find jazz
to be better music too. To write to Michael Connelly,
the great crime novelist, was kind of got me, not
not personally, but hearing him speak. And he included an
album one Time and Uh one of his books, his
(37:53):
Harry Bosch novels, and and uh kind of a compilation
of his favorite jazz which now has appeared in a
lot of those songs are in the television show that's
based on that, and uh, I find it to be
a better music. Classical kind of makes me a little
bit uh sleep sleepy. It the jazz has a little
more pep and a little more variety, and uh it's
(38:17):
a little more unpredictable, and I just it's as background music.
It's to me, it's a little more uh peppy, uh
for in general. So but I I yes, I am
listening to more music. I think a lot of us
have probably gotten away from listening to music. Is things
just moved so fast in the world now, and this
is sort of forcing you to to treasure some of
(38:37):
those things that you know, an album collection. I've gotten
more back into vinyl two. Um, just just for all
the reasons everybody always mentioned, just the touching, the larger album,
the the the the artwork, um, flipping it over. It's
it's just a different experience and it's it's one of
those ones you kind of get into it. It. There's
(38:57):
something calming about that as well. That's name anyway, Michael,
thank you so much for your time. Congratulations on the book.
I look forward to to your your next book and uh,
of course to finding out who wins the Masters on
golf dot com. So thank you for your time today
Part one. I have a real Jeff. Thank you so
(39:20):
much for your interest in my writing life and for
having me on your shot. I didn't realize this was
your first podcast. I think of you someone who's been
podcasting for an well, but thanks, thank you so much.
I can't thank Michael van Berger enough for joining us
and and sharing so many incredible insights. Obviously, I would
love for you to go out and and pick up
his book at Jeff shackle for dot com my site.
(39:40):
If you don't know how to spell my name, it's
it's just googled Jeff and golf. That's Jeff off to
eo ff and I will have some show notes with
a couple of the articles I mentioned that that Michael
has written on Greg Norman and also on this year's
Masters that he and Alan Schipnuk are covering in his
Drive back from from the Players Championship, and of course
(40:02):
some links to where you can buy the book Amazon
dot com. Obviously the easy way, but there are also
some some nice people doing some things that are sourcing
the books from Ingram, the main distributor and trying to
help independent booksellers, so I will have that link up.
I thank you again. This is the first show of many.
The format will be evolving a little bit, so bear
with me. But these are these are interesting times, and
(40:23):
so right now I'm gonna hopefully get to talk to
some great people. So I want to thank everybody at
I heart for the opportunity to allow me to launch
this show and do it the way I'm doing it,
which is kind of a soft um way of of
of rolling out a show and not doing a whole
lot in the way of pizzazz and and marketing because
it just doesn't feel like the right time for that.
But I think we all also need some distractions and
(40:46):
to hear from so many of the great, great people
who love this game and write about and talk about
it and of course play it. UH special thanks to
h Tim Paratka, our show producer, and to Aaron Atkins
for the show logo and Jeremy Eisab for helping to
get this show off the ground. Um. The frequency of
these shows will be a little bit up in the air,
but bear with me. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
(41:08):
A Shack show is a production of i heart Radio.
For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i
heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
The Shack Show is a production of I Heart Radio.
Hey everybody, thanks for downloading The Shack Show and giving
this a shot. This is a new podcast. It's been
in the works for a little bit, but of course
(00:22):
world events have changed my perspective on how a podcast
should sound and what we should be doing right now,
and um, if there is an opportunity in this dreadful
crisis we are facing, it is an opportunity to speak
to some of the more interesting people on the planet
who have some spare time right now to discuss their books,
their work, their life, the game, where the game is headed,
(00:45):
and this sport we all love. So without further ado,
Michael Bamberger is my guest today. He is, of course
the senior writer at golf dot com, Golf magazine, longtime
sports illustrated writer, author of The Green Road, Home to
the links Land, which was seminal book for me, uh
this golfing Life, The Swinger with Alan Schipnuk, a novel
about tiger woods and Men in Green, about cattying. He's
(01:08):
just a fantastic writer, one of my real heroes in
the profession of golf writing. I love what he does.
He has his very uh distinctive voice, and he is
uh somebody who has adapted to the internet to print,
but of course, really at his core he is a
fantastic writer of books. And he now has a brand
(01:29):
new book from Avid Reader Press called The Second Life
of Tiger Woods. It is a sensational read. It's a
difficult read at times because if you are a fan
of Tiger Woods, Michael's incredible reporting gets to the heart
of some very very difficult topics and that run up
to the nineteen Masters last year. But of course it
(01:51):
ends on that wonderful happy note of the great comeback
by Tiger Woods, which was one year ago this week
and Augusta, Georgia. And it is a book I highly recommend.
Go to Jeff shackle for dot com. I'll have links
to Amazon or to uh some other options for buying
the book that maybe helped independent booksellers. So, without further ado,
(02:11):
my conversation with Michael Bamberger. Michael, I want to ask
you first about the book and your process, and not
in a gotcha kind of way, just as a writer.
I'm curious how the Second Life of Tiger Woods came about.
When you started thinking about doing this book and was
it your idea, Did your editor come to you? How?
(02:33):
How did that all come together? Yet the Uh, I
went to the editor like all of us, you know
who covered Tiger Woods close to we're reading tea leaves
all the time. And something to happen to be at
the Honda Tournament in two thousand and eighteen ship So
he played well. That was the first time he played
really well after well, after the surgery and after the
(02:55):
memorial they arrest and then he came back and played
the West Coast in two thousand and eighteen, and there
were interesting signs there. I'm sure he would have seen
some of that. But then at the Honda Tournament, the
first off of the Florida Swing, Uh, he was swinging
beautifully uh, and the irons were majestic, and it was
really struck by all that. But the thing that really
(03:16):
got me was, Uh, Sunday when it was over, and
uh he could have been highly annoyed because he was
semi contending and didn't close well. But then he made
some sort of off handed comment about the kid that
he played with, twenty one year old Sam Burns, and
how Sam had played his way into the Tampa event,
and honest to God, I'd never heard him say those
(03:37):
selfless in all my life. Like, I didn't even know that.
I didn't even realize the Tiger knew how that works,
you know, how you get into the next week's event
if you don't have status. So anyway, I was struck
by that. And I think from that moment on, I
was watching Tiger with a different uh, with a different
set of eyes, really more keenly. And later that year,
(03:59):
but before he won the two or Championship, I called
my uh, my editor, young man named Joe p. Froy
Adler and uh and suggested that that that Tiger's come back,
for Tiger's efforts here might be worthy of a book,
having no idea that, of course, that he would win
the tour championship with the Masters, and he edited another
(04:19):
book on Tiger. So what was his reaction? He had
had another book on Tiger, right, He he edited the big,
thick biography of of Tiger written by Army Knitain and
Jeff Benedict. He was enthusiastic immediately. Uh, he's very interested
in golf. He's a good player himself, and uh, and
there was no fight of any sort. I mean, he
(04:42):
was like, yeah, but let's see where it goes. Uh.
So anyway, I was going down the road before the
Tour Championship and then I've written about this uh and
mentioned this before, but some will being used by it.
I know I have a personality numerous personality defects, and
one of them was very became very are evident on
that Sunday afternoon at last year's Masters, because I was
(05:03):
actively rooting for Francesco Mullinary. Even though any seen person
would say, and it would be true, wouldn't a Tiger
victory be good for you and your book? The answer
is yes, And still I found myself rooting for Francesco Mullinary.
And I don't know how you feel about him, Jeff,
but I'm just so taken with the guy and how
he goes about his business and everything about him. But
also I just loved the idea of seeing character being
(05:28):
revealed if Tiger got close and didn't close, although we
did see a little bit out of the British Owman's PGA.
But anyway, but especially at the Master's been away that
so that all came about interesting. What are you a
mulinary buff yourself? Jeff? I am? I am, but I
I root for the story. I'm from the Jenkins School
of of golf writing, and I did root for the story.
(05:49):
And I still not quite over Carnews Steve Frankly, because
I went the whole way or most away with Tiger
and and he played so magnificently that day. But I
also have this incredible admiration for Molinari because Tiger missed
two shots essentially, and Mollinari didn't miss one that day.
And I actually, one of the rare times I've gotten
to talk to Tiger one on one, I mentioned that
(06:11):
and how unbelievably difficult the golf course played that day,
and how incredible his round of was given the conditions,
the firmness, and how the slightest, slightest mistake was exposed.
Where did you get Tiger one on one? Oh? That
was a Tory Pines in twenty uh nineteen, and he
(06:34):
was it was a pro am and you know how
it is in the program. He gets, uh the front nine,
he's engaged with the people, and bet about the tenth
or eleventh hole, he gets bored and it's a good
time to kind of walk out and see if he
wants the chat. And he was very chatty that day
because I had asked press conference question about the shot
he most enjoyed from the previous year, and it wasn't
the answer I would have given. He he he wanted
(06:56):
to know what I thought of the answer, which, like
you have noted, is kind of unusual for him. Um.
I didn't want to tell him that the shot he
hit at the Torch Championship I didn't see because I
was sitting at a cafe in Paris getting ready for
the Ryder. Uh. I was more intrigued by the two
shots he hit at Carnousti on the sixth hole. They're
they're the two greatest shots I've ever seen in person.
(07:16):
That was in the winter of two those and so
before he won the Master's right, that's very interesting for you.
It's uh, it's exciting, you know, no matter what you
think about Tiger. You know, we love golf and h
and you can't help but be admire his achievements in
the game and and to get something directly from him,
especially on a you know, with the deeper into golf,
(07:38):
it is the more comfortable. It's it's exciting, um, to
your but to your but to your point, to your point,
he he observes everything, and he knew that I was
out there watching, and he knew from one of my
questions after the round, because I was the one who
asked about the heckler on the eighteenth, which was one
of the scariest things I've also seen in golf, and
I had asked him if the RNA had had issued
(07:59):
in a pology that because it was on his back
swing and it was awful and the guy was scary looking,
and his answer was f no, he was. He was
still a little hot about that one, so but he
was very proud. It was interesting. He was very proud
of that that day at Carnoustie. That was the thing
that came through. And Dan Kilbridge, my colleague at the
time of golf week, was was with me then for
(08:20):
part of that chatting and uh that that came we
were we were kind of noticing that that that that
way that golf course played and even though he didn't win,
that he had he had immense pride about that performance
and everyway as he should. It was. It was phenomenal.
It was exciting, and Mulinary made a very interesting insight,
(08:40):
uh with me, but I'm sure with others as well
about Tiger that week was that he had his two
children up there, so I'm sure you wouldn't thin while
you were working around with Erica and Mulinary said he
may have just wanted it too much. And that's like
a lot of things in life from the one too
too much. Uh, you can't get it. Do you remember
what Tiger said in response to a question that Doug Ferguson,
(09:02):
same question Doug Ferguson asked him at at mcdne in
two thousand nineteen after the Masters, what was your most
memorable shot of the year? T shot seventeen You cover
in the in the book a little bit, and I
just found that really interesting because you know, without that
tree there, it's obviously it's a challenging and extremely important
(09:25):
t shot. But I don't take it lightly. I just
he you know, he had a great drive there, but
he hits you know, he hits a lot of good
drives these days. Where he occasionally was it is probably
more accurately, but it was just interesting to me that
that would be the shot that stood out. But you know,
as he made the case that's a will let him
when you know, once he drove it in play on seventeen,
he wasn't gonna make a bogie. They're very more likely
wasn't going to he was gonna win that Master's tournament.
(09:47):
So it's just interesting in how his mind were. He
has a very interest in ynd He in general, I
think he's not given enough credit for that. Well he
hasn't shown him. Uh, and he has started to give
insights in the last couple of years that I think
reveal more of that. And you cover that in the
book a little bit, especially as you noted on I
listened to another podcast you were on the Trap Draw.
(10:10):
You had a great chat with the lane up guys
and you. He has really kind of opened up more
on the especially on the golf side. That Trap Draw podcast.
I wasn't sure if I was in it. It was great,
Thank you. He has he he has opened up more,
and uh, you know, sometimes we want too much from
(10:34):
any sort of celebrity as it is. Uh, But the thing,
you know, and I think it's important to remember that
they're human beings with extreme skill and expertise, often in
one very very narrow area that they may or may
not even be good about talking about. So like if
we got Jack Nicholson one on one. You you probably
met him or you know, probably seen him around, and
(10:54):
let could could Jack Nicholson go deep on the art
of acting? Maybe he could, but maybe he couldn't. Maybe
he's just as about that way and it's just not
in him to do it. Well, you know, you could
say the same about Tiger. But what you and I
will know, and most of your listeners would know, if
you ask Tiger a golfy question, he'll go deep with you. Yeah.
(11:15):
I've had some really uh fun moments the last couple
of years asking a kind of golfy question that you
since other writers are like, oh great, and he just
gives these fantastic answers and it's it's uh. And sometimes
I've asked them just because the questions are going in
the direction it's like, well, this is this is this
is going to make him annoyed. We need to get
(11:35):
back to the game here. Um. But hey, on that
topic of Jack Nicholas, you reminded me of I just
have to tell a quick moment at the memorial a
few years ago. He was talking about Mark Wahlberg in
this new water that he launched, and I just had
no idea about Nicholas Jack and Barbara's affinity for movies.
And I threw out a question because because Wahlberg had
(11:58):
the new h Onto Raj movie coming out that he
was a producer of and obviously was part of the show.
And I basically sarcastically said to Mr Dicklis, you're gonna
go see Entourage And he looked at me with this
look and he goes, well, of course I am. I
didn't realize that I'd Scott Tolly told me later in
(12:20):
Barbara got out of the theater in the afternoon and
get a big thing of popcorn and see everything. How
about that? Well, Jack, Jack and Barber had the life
that a lot of us aspired to, which is um
uh Italian restaurants in non just script script malls and movies.
I don't know what more you could a flat screen.
Let's take a quick break and then I want to
talk to you again about something related to the book.
(12:42):
We were just discussing, all right, So you mentioned the
t shot on seventeen, but in the book the thing
that really stood out to me, uh And I assume
because you did not speak to Tiger at link for
this book or get the opportunity a d um you
go through the thirteenth whole t shot in the final round.
(13:05):
I I was fascinated by the observation you had that
that you believe he thought he overcooked it? Um And
I'm anxious to watch the rerun on a big screen
and see all that I was watching on the little
screen the press center with the tracer I think on
Amen Corner Live and I couldn't believe the line he took.
But you you believe that was that was really the
moment of the final round. And from what I gather
(13:28):
in the book, yeah, it was something weird. Well we
know something weird happened on that T shirt on thirteen
Because I tell me, Jeff, if your experience is different,
I've never known Tiger to try to hit his slice
over those trees on the on the on the left
like a left handed golfer might too. I mean, I mean,
he he talks about, you know if it really uh
(13:52):
plane draw shots down the right side, typically with the
three wood, but uh, this day was wet and he
hit driver and uh it was sort of a go
moment for him in the tournament. And is his right
foot slipped and he says that very clearly. Uh in
the In the broadcast, Tony Finow, who's standing four ft
from him. Uh uh said that he hit sort of
(14:13):
a toe hook there, which is unusual to think that
that's what he said, But anyway, you can you can
see the ball in the telecast. It's going, it's going
above those trees for a while. Then it looks like
it's in those trees for a while. It looks like
it maybe ticked off of something. Uh. And then it
winds up in the in the middle of the thirteenth
(14:35):
parailh And he hit an adarn and two button and
he made four. It kind of goes to the point
that Tiger used to make all the time, and people
mocked him for it. But it's true. To win, you
have to get lucky. You you know, if you win
by twelve, you haven't gotten lucky. But if you win
by one, something has gone your way. And uh And
that looked like a T shot. You don't typically you
(14:55):
don't typically slip your right foot slip on a T shot. Uh.
And you wind up three ten cards in the middle
of the fairway. Yeah. Uh And then he and then
he said he tossed his gum out into the Azaleus
is sort of a fit of um thinking he had
messed up. He looked to be disgusted with the shot.
(15:17):
And one thing we know is that Tiger's spatial expression
do not lie. And in that that part of the
book again, in the book is just uh, some of
the reporting and detail is just so sensational. Congratulations you
you well, you're very nice too. But it's nice to
you to say, because you know this material as well
as anybody, so to hear that from you it means
(15:38):
a great deal. So thank you well. And as I
note in the intro here, it's it's tough at times
because your detail is you you really hit on a
lot of the tough times too. But I think it's
important to remember where he was. Um. But one of
the things you you you did was you track down
the CBS cameraman. What why did you What was your
interest in doing that? Who was the guy who was
(15:58):
following the ball? Just to kind of have some insight
into the master's broadcast or was there something else? Well, no,
because because this guy had well he had a real
time view of it. And if if you actually look
at his camera work, you can see that that ball
is going into the trees. And then he kind of
has to make a jerky little move. I don't mean
(16:19):
to overstate it, yeah, but you know it is it's
like you know the words, It's not that. Look at
that ball is just sailing through the air. There's no
jerky little move. But here and he thinks and and
and he you know, this is none of this is definitive.
It just this is the forensic evidence available to us.
I don't think Tiger would necessarily know. I don't know
(16:41):
how he really really good enough, but his feeling was
that it may have, you know, as can something happens
a ball hits it a twig or or or a branch,
and it kind of can change direction in a in
a weird, unexpected way. Because my question him is you
know what caused you to sort of move your camera
like that? And uh so, so he gave me his
(17:03):
best analysis of it, and I've offered my best analysis
of it. And I think it's interesting that you've that
You're the first person to ask me about that part.
But it is interesting because he got he made for
there and it could have been a higher number. Yeah,
I just thought that moment and uh and the moment
on the twelfth Green when he when he went up
(17:24):
and did his clean up work and leaned on the potter.
I was so mad. Bill Pennington wrote a great piece
on that. It was like, to me, that was just
the moment that in that final round when you saw
he had his his full on mojo back or whatever
you want to call it. The gamesmanship was there in
court and Stark contrast to what was going on on
(17:45):
the other side of the creek and Jeff just to
finish them in that one thought you just made that.
Part of that mojo, of course, is the effect he
has and other people, And for Mulinari, who's one of
the most intelligent people you could ever mean to say
nothing of his intelligence as a golfer, for him to
mess up fifteen the way he did it was like,
that wasn't mullinary And I wondered what degree that, you
(18:06):
know is the tiger. But you know, there's they're tied still.
People forget this, but they're tied for the tournament. Standing
on Mullinari after his trouble on twelve, made a birdie
on thirteen, so they were tied on fifteen. T and
uh And it's only after fifteen that it's really sort
of half game over at that point, at least for mullinary.
So to what degree did did the higher mojo that
(18:26):
you just speak of effect Mullinari's play on fifteen? Yeah?
Now it was. It was a sensational final round. Um.
One other thing, And I mean, there's so much in
the book that I would love to cover, but I
naturally have to uh target the piece which now part
(18:46):
of it. And I'm sure if it was a book
excerpt or you wrote a new piece on on Greg
Norman and the um because I just love the visual
of him dropping off the the note at the house afterwards. Um,
but but tell, uh, tell me a little bit about
the Norman note and then that this sort of they
(19:08):
run they run into each other later on and and
have a nice chat. Um. Is there something to read
into that? I mean, better than just kind of the
fun of these two living right down the street from
each other but not being super close. Well, I do
think there's something wading a job because it's like, uh,
you know, everything in the in the human condition, Uh,
(19:30):
people change and relationships evolve, and uh, you know how
things were at one point doesn't mean that's how they're
going to be forever. But just to give your listeners
who wouldn't know this history, UH, well, very briefly, Greg
Norman was the best player in the world, you know,
by the World Golf ranking bully. He was replaced by
(19:50):
Tiger Woods. Uh, the same Tiger Woods who UH when
it employed Butch Harmon, Greg Norman's former teacher, UH hired
Steve Williams, Greg Norman's former caddy, moved to or moved
to Orlando, as Norman did early in his career, then
moved to Jupiter Island as Norman did, started with I
(20:11):
MJ and then broke away as Norman did. Hired Norman's
estate manager. I don't know if I'm using the right
germ there in others there were a lot of things
that Norman did first that Tiger did later um and
Norman Uh. And there's a whole history here that I
don't pretend to know animily at all. Norman has always
(20:32):
been mystified as to why Tiger, who has been very
deferential to certainly Arnold and Jack in particular, UH, has
not been deferential and really never even paid UH any
sort of particular respect. Really, the fact of what Norman
did in his career and uh uh And I think
(20:55):
Norman has never said this to me, and I don't
think it would be in his character to say so.
I think I well, I would say I picked up
on her, you know, the basic human emotion of her
from him. But anyway, so then just to fast forward.
There's a lot more to it than that, but just
a beast forward here. So then Tiger wins the two
thousand nineteen Masters. Uh. Norman lives a mile or two
away from him. Uh. He hand delivers a congratulatory note
(21:19):
and Tiger just doesn't respond to it. Well, Tiger might
have his reasons. Tiger made was overwhelmed, who knows, but
he didn't uh. And Norman was like, you know, I
think annoyed. And I could understand why. Uh, I could
understand why. So just let's live it at that for now.
And then so that was May of two thou nineteen.
And then in January two they saw each other in
(21:42):
South Florida and Norman told me that they that they
don't see each other very often at all. And Norman
and Tiger told me, excuse me, Norman told me that
Tiger told him. Uh, I got to know it. I
appreciate it very much. And then Norman told me that
they had a warm, real conversation and really the way
(22:02):
the way that Greg said it was, it was actually
the warmest, most revolutory, most real conversation that they've ever had,
probably I'm guessing about twenty five years of knowing each other.
So I just thought that was interesting. So, yes, it's
in the book. And then I followed up on it
more recently and golf dot com. Yeah, well, Greg said
some tough things about Tiger during his scandal, but I
would bet the thing that probably bothers him more if
(22:25):
I had to guess, was this Tiger also patterned so
much of his business approached after things Norman did, and
and uh, and knowing Norman's pride in his business and
how he's built it out, that probably uh. With with
Bernal too, what do you just last thing before we
take a quick break, what what do you make of
where Greg Norman is in in life and golf and business.
(22:48):
And because he's you're not a big social media guy,
but you probably are well aware that he can get
a little bit strange, uh these days on those mediums. Well,
it's interesting because my one on one experiences with Norman
are extremely positive if I'm a very uh intelligent and
engage in person, and uh I think I know he
(23:12):
likes to take off the shirt and he showed it off.
But but you know, being only a few years younger
than Norman myself, I think it's admirable to take care
of yourself. That the way that he does, uh this
this World Golf League is what do they call that?
Joff Premier League? Premier Golf League, as you well know
and your listeners would would likely know, was essentially an
(23:35):
idea that he had twenty plus years ago. Uh So
I'm sure you know he's obviously very not obviously two
people don't follow, but if people do follow me that
he's been very involved in and trying to get it
off the ground. Uh. But I think without just sort
of guessing here, I think it's hard for anybody who's
enjoyed the lime lights he has uh then to have
(24:02):
a less active role in the world and is and
is trying to stay role evant as as many people
are sure, I don't know. My own experiences of Norman
have been extremely, extremely positive, and I feel very fortunate
that they've got the relationship that I do with him. Yeah, No,
I think he's a fascinating guy. And it's he's just
(24:22):
uh and and and has so much to give back
to the game, but he can be it seems like
at times more concerned with the brand or the business
than than kind of sharing at this point what what
he's got, which is so much. And he was such
an incredible player, you know, my, my, my generation, my age.
It's amazing by the way that you have to throw
(24:42):
that out that he was the best player in the world.
But it's it's amazing how quickly people forget these days.
Um so uh, just let's take a brief pause from
the Shack Show for another word from our sponsors, and
I want to get back to our conversation with Michael
Bamber Michael lasting on the book. Um, the reaction of
(25:14):
any kind from the Tiger camp yet the book's been
out about a week now. Well, I haven't heard peep.
As you know, the one person you might have expected
to hear from would have been Ben Greenspen. Tiger's a
long time spokesperson. Uh, he was no longer there. But
I haven't hear No, I haven't heard from anybody at all. Yeah, Um, alright,
(25:36):
A couple of other things just while I have you
and wanna I know, um you you cover a lot
on the rules in the book with Tiger and his
conflicted relationship at select times in his career with the
rules of golf, and and um. But but one of
the things that I've I've wished he could be more
(25:56):
outspoken about is is and and he has been great
the last two years, and he sticks to a tight
script on technology. But I'm curious, just kind of in
looking at his career, if you can think of a
player and I would, I would lump in Phil Mickelson
and uh, just some of the guys at that age
group as having had to make more adjustments to changes
(26:20):
in in equipment than any time in the history of
the game. Do you think do you think that's a
fair statement, Jeff, You'd have to be really nerdy in
the game to have the conversation that you and I
are going to have right now. I would say, among
the many things about you know, who's the most underrated
golfer of all time, it's it's Tiger Woods. Yeah. Uh.
(26:40):
And one of the most underrated aspects of his of
his time in the game is the adjustment he made
from the steel shop Wooden headed the lot of ball
game that he grew up in to this game, had
the equipment never changed, had been if you look at
what Hogan won within the fifties and say what what
David Graham won with that arian in UH in the
(27:01):
in the eighties, UH, which was what Tiger learned the
game on versus what Tiger won the game within two thousands,
it is a sea change. Had there never been a
change in the equipment, Tiger to one way more than anyone,
because this modern equipment has been a tremendous equalizer. UH.
And we won't go into all the reasons why that's true.
(27:22):
It would it would take too long. So I feel
and maybe you feel the same that that is a
totally underrated UH aspect of his game. Because here he is,
you know, by far the greatest shot maker of his generation,
certainly one of the greatest shot makers of all time.
But it's not the shot making game that he grew
up on that he's been so successful with. So there's
(27:43):
a there's a tremendous amount going on there. And and
it would be really interesting to hear Tiger going that
because what he could say, but he might leave it
to people like you, or to say it for him
is he might have twenty five majors and a hundred
tour wins if it was still some ball for someone
head and a lot of ball. Yeah, And he can't
(28:04):
say that, And I think I admire that about him,
that he's thought it through that even though that's probably
how he feels to put that out there, he would,
he would take a lot of heat for it, and
it is up to people like us to point it out. Lauren.
His chapter with Lauren Rubinstein on technology is pretty incredible,
and I hope in this next book he he does more.
But I mean, you know, Jack Nicholas takes heat for
(28:27):
for griping about the golf ball. It's it's a very
strange thing that and Bobby Jones did it. So the
three greatest UH golfers slash thinkers and talkers and and
people who put their thoughts out there. And Hogan obviously
was was more reserved, but those three they've all had
this view, and Jones was never mocked for his views.
(28:49):
I don't think although there's a defensiveness. You've probably read
some of his his thoughts on technology, and there is
kind of a defensiveness I don't think he was getting
slaughtered for it. But but Jack and I have been
not vilified, but but mocked. You know, you've talked to people.
Jack couldn't make a ball himself, so he wanted this
ball done and then this way, and uh, it'll be
(29:11):
better for you for him. And that's always bizarre to
me that that people see it that way when you
really look at their comments. I am absolutely certain that
everything Jack has ever said about the golf ball, which
goes back three were more more years, is rooted in
what he really believes to be true. I don't think
there's anything to mock at all. And Tiger too, and
(29:34):
I think both of them too. It's when they started
doing golf course design and even heightened their their interest
in the topic and their views. But um so, after
the Players Championship was canceled, you wrote a column about
your drive back north um and thinking a lot about
where we are in the game, and I'll put a
link in the blog post I do on my my
(29:55):
site and the show notes. But since then, well for
kind of your thoughts on that that that you collected
while you were driving about the game and then and
then what's happened since has obviously been quite incredible. Um,
I'm curious just your your thought on where golf is
going to be uh down the line, and your sense
(30:17):
of how it survives all this. Well thanks for noting that, Jeff. Uh,
that was right in that period when we were first
going to this unknown period of this coronavirus and what
it would mean for daily lives short germ meeting German
long term, and the feeling I had right you know,
I just certainly didn't want to get in a plane
and that, you know, the feeling I had driving home
(30:38):
was that thank God for the American trucking American truckers,
and thank God for thats in our interstate system, because
the grocery stores were loaded with all the goods you
could possibly want. And uh, there was not going to
be panicked because we're going to have food and medicine,
you know, the very things that the starting point of
(31:02):
of our civil society. Really Uh So that that was
one thought, and then, uh, you know, I think this
is so so obvious, but I do think anyone who's
serious about the game, whether you're deaf or like I am,
or you know, or that betterflai like your Jeff, for
Terry Woods is that the basic qualities of golf will
(31:22):
serve us well for getting through this difficult period, which
I would regard as as as patients as planning as
being both optimistic, uh and realistic. You have to have
both to to to achieve anything in golf, no matter
what you're trying to achieve, and I think that's gonna
be true for this very difficult period too. So I
think I think we use golfers and fure most of
(31:43):
people listen to this, maybe all of them are are golfers.
So I think we can take some strengthens from solves
from that and you know, maybe try to extend it
to our families or whatever it might be the case.
But I think those ingredients are gonna be extremely important
to getting through this. As for the for the game
that you know this will be in. Of course, it's
(32:05):
tragic for the for the you know, the tens of
thousands and hundreds of thousands of people who have died
or will die from this dreadful disease. But in the
grand scheme of things, as a human race, we're going
to come through this thing and our game will come back.
I hope. I'm not getting to one winded here, Jeff.
But but just the one. But on the simple everyday
(32:28):
game that I know you and I both love. I
hope this will somehow translate into a simpler, more informal
game for everyday play. Carry on bag, carry fewer clubs,
you don't need rakes in the traps, play past, or
play with fewer than four people. Play a cheaper game,
player browner game. Uh, play a shorter game, shorter courses,
(32:52):
less time out there. It should be part of your life,
but it shouldn't overtake your life. I don't think. I
don't mean to use the word should in a preacher way.
I'm really just making for myself. As for the As
for the Pro game, you know, the Pro game is
a great game, and it brings a lot to uh
literally millions of people, I mean millions of people across
(33:12):
the world watch the Master's tournament where the golfers are
not and get some element of enjoying, a significant element
of enjoy from it. I don't see this pandemic when
we get back to our normal lives, changing the Pro
Game in any appreciable way, except for maybe this is
significant that there should be greater everyday appreciation for what
(33:35):
they have because it's a gift, and really it's a
gift from us, the people who pay their way, but
you know, buying the goods in the first place to them,
and I think that has been lost to some degree reason.
I mean, they're all typically very polite and very respectful,
but I don't know that there's really core understanding that
(33:55):
it's ordinary people, ordinary golfers that make their lives. So,
you know, you hopeful, hope for one of the this
is getting too longer, but no, no, no, I'm loving
this is fascinating. You're also that one of the things
that will come out of this pandemic is you know,
the very lesson that to play our town and you know,
other arts try to teach is can you actually really
(34:17):
appreciate your life as it is. It's a lifelong challenge,
it's an age old challenge. And uh and and you
hope that's that's something something good along those lines might
come out of this. Wow, that's wonderful. Yeah, I'm in
full agreement. So how are you passing the time? Are you? Yeah?
I know you like a lot of different kinds of
music and obviously to read are you what are you reading?
(34:39):
Is there anything in particular. Well, I'm doing a lot
of I'm doing I'm doing a lot of that. I
had a funny thing yesterday where so we we live,
my family and I live with UH in the in
the city limits of Philadelphia. But but it's not urban
really where we are anyway, the golf courses are closed
here in Pennsylvania. So I took my shy bag in
my sandway into a park and there's a big meadow,
(35:02):
uh where there's some uh you know, just a nice
grassy meadow and uh and it just hit some sandwich
shuts there last night, and I was and I was like, oh,
this is so much fun. You don't do about the
second I duft to feel. He was like, you know,
the red ass comes up, like, you know, trying to
strengthen my grid doing all this stuff. It's like, what's
(35:23):
wrong with you? Why do you suck so bad? It's
like absolutely nothing had changed. And it was a music
to me that I was way in. Yeah. So you know,
we've been busy at work, you know, thankfully, I'm very glad.
Howard Millstein, our boss, is U committed to Golf magazine
and committed to golf dot com. Uh Uh. So we're
all writing a lot, we're producing a lot, and and
(35:45):
I think and maybe you feel the same way. Uh.
I think it's important to give people an outlet away
from COVID nineteen, which can be really overwhelming. So we're
trying to do that golf dot Com and I'm sure
we'll be doing that in Golf magazine as well. Yeah,
I've been uh following your You and Alan are are
covering a a mock Masters, so we'll see how that
(36:06):
plays out. I I have toned down my coverage of
first world matters down to kind of the scheduling stuff.
I just don't uh I feel it's appropriate at this time.
But as you say, I'm starting a podcast and and
you're the first guest, and I do think podcasting is
a great opportunity to kind of not uh think too
(36:27):
much about the times and do think, let your your
mind wander a little bit. Um. Do you just curious
you had some thoughts on music? Uh in that that
trap drop pot. Do you listen to music when you write?
You know, it's interesting you say that because uh, typically
I don't, but in this period, uh, I have been
(36:50):
listening to just our our local possible music station. I'm not.
I grew up in a home where there was a
lot of classical music. I'm not knowledgeable about it at all. Uh,
but you know, it is a tense time and there
are times that, Yeah, if you're something human being, I
don't know how you couldn't have pangs of anxiety. And
(37:10):
it's just remarkable the common effect ROMs and data Oosky
and you know various others UH have had. I mean,
even though I'm not knowledgeable about that music. So I
had been listening to that pretty much all the every
day actually since this thing started. Whatever. How about your subject?
Do you find yourself listening to more music or do
(37:31):
you listen to music when you're right both? Yeah, I'm
more of a I'm not a huge I'm like you.
I'm not an expert on jazz, but I find jazz
to be better music too. To write to Michael Connelly,
the great crime novelist, was kind of got me, not
not personally, but hearing him speak. And he included an
album one Time and Uh one of his books, his
(37:53):
Harry Bosch novels, and and uh kind of a compilation
of his favorite jazz which now has appeared in a
lot of those songs are in the television show that's
based on that, and uh, I find it to be
a better music. Classical kind of makes me a little
bit uh sleep sleepy. It the jazz has a little
more pep and a little more variety, and uh it's
(38:17):
a little more unpredictable, and I just it's as background music.
It's to me, it's a little more uh peppy, uh
for in general. So but I I yes, I am
listening to more music. I think a lot of us
have probably gotten away from listening to music. Is things
just moved so fast in the world now, and this
is sort of forcing you to to treasure some of
(38:37):
those things that you know, an album collection. I've gotten
more back into vinyl two. Um, just just for all
the reasons everybody always mentioned, just the touching, the larger album,
the the the the artwork, um, flipping it over. It's
it's just a different experience and it's it's one of
those ones you kind of get into it. It. There's
(38:57):
something calming about that as well. That's name anyway, Michael,
thank you so much for your time. Congratulations on the book.
I look forward to to your your next book and uh,
of course to finding out who wins the Masters on
golf dot com. So thank you for your time today
Part one. I have a real Jeff. Thank you so
(39:20):
much for your interest in my writing life and for
having me on your shot. I didn't realize this was
your first podcast. I think of you someone who's been
podcasting for an well, but thanks, thank you so much.
I can't thank Michael van Berger enough for joining us
and and sharing so many incredible insights. Obviously, I would
love for you to go out and and pick up
his book at Jeff shackle for dot com my site.
(39:40):
If you don't know how to spell my name, it's
it's just googled Jeff and golf. That's Jeff off to
eo ff and I will have some show notes with
a couple of the articles I mentioned that that Michael
has written on Greg Norman and also on this year's
Masters that he and Alan Schipnuk are covering in his
Drive back from from the Players Championship, and of course
(40:02):
some links to where you can buy the book Amazon
dot com. Obviously the easy way, but there are also
some some nice people doing some things that are sourcing
the books from Ingram, the main distributor and trying to
help independent booksellers, so I will have that link up.
I thank you again. This is the first show of many.
The format will be evolving a little bit, so bear
with me. But these are these are interesting times, and
(40:23):
so right now I'm gonna hopefully get to talk to
some great people. So I want to thank everybody at
I heart for the opportunity to allow me to launch
this show and do it the way I'm doing it,
which is kind of a soft um way of of
of rolling out a show and not doing a whole
lot in the way of pizzazz and and marketing because
it just doesn't feel like the right time for that.
But I think we all also need some distractions and
(40:46):
to hear from so many of the great, great people
who love this game and write about and talk about
it and of course play it. UH special thanks to
h Tim Paratka, our show producer, and to Aaron Atkins
for the show logo and Jeremy Eisab for helping to
get this show off the ground. Um. The frequency of
these shows will be a little bit up in the air,
but bear with me. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
(41:08):
A Shack show is a production of i heart Radio.
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