May 13, 2020 • 43 mins
In episode 10 of the Shack Show, the CEO of the National Golf Foundation, Dr. Joe Beditz, joins Geoff Shackelford to discuss golf offering a safe activity during the ongoing pandemic and the heightened interest in golf. Dr. Beditz also shares how the pace of play has improved, research techniques they employ and how golf would look if it was started from scratch today.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Shack Show is a production of I Heart Radio.
Back on March thirty one, the National Golf Foundation sent
out its first email letter from their CEO. Today's guest
(00:21):
on The Shack Show, Joe Bettetts, who has been with
the organization since four started as a director of Research,
and he issued a statement essentially laying out what they
would be doing. They surveyed over a thousand golf courses
and since then weekly they've been tracking data also some
feelings thoughts from people, kind of covering a wider ray
(00:45):
really of of I don't want to say random topics,
but in a way they are, but in a in
a good way, and trying to understand what's going on
with the sport, perceptions of of where things stand and
all along. What's been most fast something to me, I
think is that Dr Bettetts has been very adamant about
(01:05):
reminding people that this is a situation that is highlighting
the benefits of golf, but at the same time could
really shine a light on the sport if people do
not appreciate the privilege of being able to go out
and play golf right now, as as so many terrible
things are going on with lives being lost, in the economy,
(01:26):
and so it's it's been so refreshing to have somebody
in the golf industry that that's that's using data but
also using common sense and thinking big picture and and
looking beyond all this to what is best for the
sport and protecting it, but also trying to push things forward.
So I wanted to talk to to Dr Joe Bettetts,
(01:46):
who's down in Jupiter, Florida, about where he has seen
things go up and to this point and possibly where
things are headed into the future. I hope you enjoy
the discussion. So I look back on my els and
I saw that the National Golf Foundation started tracking things
doctor in at the end of March, and I'm just
(02:10):
wondering if you can kind of set up for us
why the National Golf Foundation started doing this and you've
been doing every week now with with these phone surveys
of of golf courses and I believe of golfers. It's
a little bit of a couple of coincidences. One, you know,
are we have a pretty large, substantial research staff here
(02:32):
at n GF, and in our work that we do,
much of the work that we do is private and
it's commercial work. Proprietary to the companies that we work for.
And that's you know, a good uh, A significant portion
of our of our of our work lives here at
n GF. The other side is doing things to research
(02:54):
the game and the growth of the game, etcetera. So
when our proprietary or a commercial project kind of guy
got put on pause by our client base, yeah, I
had a lot of research resources man, man and women.
Power to you to apply somewhere then, So that was
one thing that we had. And then we've got a
(03:15):
couple of unique assets. You know. One one is a
universal database of golf courses in the world. It started
as a database of golf courses in the United States
back and we're back in ninety four where we got
started by the couple of journalists in fact, yeah writers,
they were in Chicago, characters too anyway, you know, they
(03:39):
published some golf magazines in fact. But in any case,
so we have the database of golf courses. We had
the staff, you know, and you know, the first week
I actually hired an outside call agency to make the
calls to do the poll of golf courses. But they
came back and they said, well, we weren't able to
reach x number of I said, well, we can't just
(04:01):
assume that they're closed or open. We have to track
them down. So I turned my staff loose on it,
and they kind of fixed that so that we could
definitively say, you know, what was the status of the
golf courses that we called, And then of course we
found out it was what, which shocked a lot of people.
We were convinced it was correct and that we needed
(04:22):
to keep doing it. So that's where that led. And
then another asset is we have a consumer panel, a
golf a core Golfer consumer panel, which again we use
for a lot of our commercial work about our non
commercial work as well, and so we decided to start
surveying our panel weekly to see how they were holding up,
(04:44):
what their anxiety levels were, how itchy they were to
get out and play golf, et cetera, kind of get
into their heads a little bit. And so we just
started doing it there six weeks ago and now we're
in our seventh week, and I can tell you today
is Wednesday in our our staff is on the phones
with golf courses completing completing this week sample, except now
(05:07):
we're asking We kind of switched because as you know,
plus open. The ones that are still closed remained so
either because they want to be or have to be
very buying a local executive order. So we huddled earlier
this week and said where do we pivot? And so
now we're asking golf courses while we're on the phone
(05:29):
with them, how how open are you? Is the pro
shop open? How about the food and beverage you know
is um? What does the throughput look like? Are your
tey times? You know? You know, length and significantly, et cetera.
So we'll be reporting on that golf course dimension, and
we also will be reporting on a new consumer dimension
(05:51):
come next Tuesday that that will go into the field
probably tomorrow, a new consumer study from our panel. We'll
get wrapped up over the weekend. The guys will work
on the weekend on it and give me some results
on Monday, and you guys out there, we'll get to
see it on Tuesday. You mentioned you were shocked by
the number of courses open shockingly lower, shockingly high number
(06:15):
back when you started this. Uh what we're talking about
six weeks ago? Now, I think I'm high answer your
question in a word high. I mean people were incredulous
when I told them that we found forty eight percent
of golf cluses. We're still we're still open for play. Interesting.
Uh So, one of the things that I've noticed in
your tone in your messages has been, UM, I think superb.
(06:40):
But I'm sure it's been tricky for you. But you
have really been emphasizing a certain caution and you've used
a paparazzi analogy and you've used the yellow light red
light analogy. Where's that coming from? What? What? What is?
What are you seeing either from from the people you're
talking to or your staff is hearing what's striving you
(07:02):
to say those things as you're as you're writing your
weekly letter, setting up these the data you're putting out.
Good question, Jeff, Well, it is it is partly what
I'm hearing from people anecdotally from you know, uh, in
terms of I mentioned in this past weekend boards of directors, uh,
(07:23):
you know, struggling with how to deal with um, you know,
let's say members members, you know how but if we
call them covidiots, um and and they're really having to
deal with this. And then I was on the phone
(07:44):
literally just before the day before I wrote that on
Saturday morning, I wrote that after a few cups of coffee,
somebody called me and they told me about a golf
course that was in flagrant violation that shut down by
the Sheriff's apart. It's punitively closed for forty five days.
And uh, you know, and a couple of a couple
(08:06):
of people who are arrested in the parking lot. D U,
I I lets that part out. Um, you know, it's um,
and so the bad behavior is going to happen. I
think it's gonna be small. But think about this thing
about think about a hundred people, even a hundred golfers. Um,
if you had a hundred golfers, do you think like
(08:26):
maybe one or two of them, let's say two of
them would kind of not be the kind of person
you'd want to set up as a role model for
your kids or something like that. I think we could
probably assume there were at least a couple out of
a hundred, you know, that would give us about a
half a million of those around the country. Then its golfers.
If just if just two percent were you know, not compliant,
(08:51):
let's say, not prudent, you know. So what concerns me,
I guess yes, is that from everything that I read,
and I read a ton We're still in the middle
of this. We're not even in the you know, we're
in the third quarter. Maybe, um and this could roll
right into you know, right into a second wave. I'm
(09:12):
not a pessimist by nature. I'm an optimist, but I
just think we still need to be really careful, both
at work and at play. And I think golf is
perfectly capable of delivering that safe activity for people, hundred
percent convinced that it is, so long as we kind
of self regulate. And you know that we look to
(09:33):
generate peer pressure as opposed to police pressure at our
golf facilities. Right. But the thing I I sense though
that that is also part of your message, is that
you also have h and I don't know how you
survey this or track this, but I also sense you
just feel there is a view of the sport that
(09:53):
um maybe heightens that the the the alert syst of
people looking for trouble, are are wanting to get the game.
Or maybe you've just sense that because of the way
golf is played, in the way it looks, that it
could look wrong. Is that is that a little bit
of what what feeds your your cautionary tone. I think so, Jeff.
(10:17):
I mean, I think you're very intuitive there. I mean,
it's it's there's a certain amount of people of Americans
do not play golf. Of course, I could argue that
tennessee there but don't play golf, and some of them
do carry a negative impression. It's not a majority by
(10:41):
any means, but they do carry, you know, and you know,
kind of proselytize a negative image of the game. And
it's this whole divisiveness of the you know, the one
or two percenters in the vision of golf behind the
gate of the gate, you know, gates and walls, when
we know in fact and n GF is known forever
(11:02):
that you know, golf is a very democratic game. It's
available at all in all places, at all price points virtually.
I think our consumer research tells us that every golfer
that that we have in our panel has fortified golf courses,
you know, within a reasonable driving distance of them, you know,
at various place points. So yeah, I guess maybe I'm
(11:25):
a little sensitive to golf being accused of being elitist,
although you know, and that and that we get to
go out in exercise and enjoy our sport when everybody
else is shut down. I just think that that's a
breeding ground for negativity about the game, which I would
hate to see happen. Uh So you mentioned the democratic
(11:49):
nature and one of the things that I sense so far,
and again we're very early into this, but it seems
like this has a potential to be a renaissance or
um um, something that really sparks a kind of a
renewal and a sense of appreciation for both the sport
but in particular public golf. Is that fair to jump
(12:12):
to that conclusion or is it just too early to
tell in this uh, this dreadful pandemic where things will
go well again? I love. I love the direction of
your love, the direction of your thinking that I do
hear anecdotally, again from from feedback from the material we're
sending out and people writing in and calling saying that
(12:36):
they're seeing people at their golf courses that they haven't
seen in a long time or ever, that there is
there does seem to be heightened interest amongst some not
not any kind of a decline in interest in golf.
And so they're seeing more couples golf, they're seeing more
(12:57):
family golf in the play since that have been denied
the ability to play. Now that they're open, they're seeing
full t sheets. So I do think that there's there
could be a silver lining here in terms of golf,
perception of golf and and participation. Um, you know, we
(13:19):
could sure, we could sure use that. You know, we
won't die without it. I mean, golf's not going anywhere,
but it would be nice if more people enjoyed it.
That's really what we're all about, more people enjoying the
game in the way that they want to enjoy it. Well,
let's take a quick break here. I'm speaking with Dr
Joe Benett's the National Golf Foundation, and will hear from
(13:40):
our sponsors briefly and we'll continue our chat. All right,
we're back. So one of the things that we're are
(14:01):
looking at as part of this situation where golf courses
are open, people are playing. We we do have a
few bad apples here and there, but for the most part,
the reports are just sensational From Lisa, I'm hearing of
golf courses behaving well, golfers everything just being extra careful
and sensitive. So one of the things that's going to
(14:22):
be added to that and I don't know how you
or if you if the National Golf Foundation is looking
at this or or is dreaming of how you asked
this question, but professional golf maybe making a comeback in
early June, and obviously it's it's going to be a
cumbersome task to do that. Do you do you see
(14:43):
a lot of correlation between how people see the pro game,
uh and connected with the recreational game. And is that
something we need to watch in case that doesn't go
well or it goes really well? Is is there a
potential impact on the on the business of golf and
the everyday great question, there's I mean, let me share
(15:05):
a couple of couple of thoughts on that. First of all,
there's there's absolutely no doubt that broadcast golf, streaming golf, etcetera.
Enhanced his interest in the game. It builds interest in
the game. Um, we've seen we saw that throughout the
(15:26):
history of golf. The more exposure golf got, the more
popular golf got from perhaps the exposure Bobby Jones going
through a ticker tape parade in New York City down
the streets of New York City too, you know, Palmer
and Nicholas doling it out, or Palmer or Nicholas and
Watson doling it out to tiger Woods ascension in the
(15:46):
late nineties and into the early two thousand's, you know,
golf on TV has been a terrific driver that exposure.
Almost a hundred million people follow golf either you know,
play it or watch it or lead about it. And
that's where that's where the pent up interest in golf
percolates until it comes to the surface and somebody says,
(16:08):
you know, I'm going to give golf a try. So
any golf on TV is good for the game. And
in my opinion, now how it comes out in June,
I think it will be just fine. I really do.
I mean I don't. We did do some survey work
on this almongst Our Core Golfer panel and while they
(16:29):
would prefer, you know, while golfers would prefer to see
you know, an audience as crowded spectators and and feel
some of that electricity, even even if it's digitally only,
they still said that they would two minute they would
enjoy it, and that they would they would, they would
jump on it. And I think everybody's looking forward to
(16:49):
the match this Sunday coincidentally, Jeff, that golf course Seminole
is seven miles south of me Doe South on the
same road, right, so it's seven miles south of me,
and medalists the following week is about nine miles due
north of me on the same road. So I'm our
office is smack in the middle of the two golf
(17:09):
courses that are going to be that are going to
be featured here in the next in the next two weeks,
and you probably can't attend either event, which is fine.
By the way, it could be that the invitation got lost. No, no, no,
I think they're being extra safe, which is great. Um No,
they are going to be there, are going to be
super extra super extra safe, and I'm just pleased and
(17:31):
looking forward to seeing some of it, you know myself.
And you you mentioned doing some some surveying on that.
Is that a big part of your I mean, what
what is it that the people who are looking to
you for information generally before this what is it they're
wanting to know? And then now in the pandemic, what
what is the thing that you're wanting people from the
(17:52):
golf business are wanting to hear from from you. Well,
you know, before before pandemic. You know, people look to
us to keep track of you know, consumer you know,
consumer sentiment, spending, spending habits, you know, inclin inclination too,
(18:12):
you know, purchase, equipment, travel, etcetera. As I say, we serve,
we serve the commercial side of the game. And we
are we we are members are all golf related businesses,
thousands of them, be they golf courses or be they
the biggest manufacturers or the smallest golf course architect those
(18:33):
are Those are our constituents from the turf industry and
the John Deere's and this agentas and um, you know,
the tours of the world to you know, the equipment manufacturers, etcetera.
So you can imagine what they're all interested in, what
their consumers are thinking and what they might do, um,
what they might want. So we we dive deeply into
(18:57):
that for them both you in many with many in
many different ways, both generally from a macro point of
view and also from a very proprietary point of view,
you know, by looking at their own and studying their
own brand, equity, etcetera. So before the pandemic, that's the
kind of work we did with the industry for the industry, everyone,
(19:20):
whether they be a client or not. You know, we
tracked golf courses, We tracked the number of golfers on
and off course. You know, we track blatant demand or
interest in the game. We track spending, We tracked media
consumption and that kind of behavior, and we report that
globally to everyone because anybody in the business of golf
(19:40):
needs to have those basic metrics. So what's missing now
pandemic wise is a lot of that proprietary or private
work that's been put on hold as companies, you know,
widen wide and far are cutting back on on all
discretionary spending. So we understand and that and we ourselves
(20:01):
are doing are doing the same thing. So I wandered
completely off the no, no, no, no, that's what I
It's where I was thinking kind of where I wanted
to keep the conversation going because obviously I would sense
and I think it's just too early, but one of
the things you'll you'll be really looked to for more
survey work after the great work you guys have done
(20:23):
so far is the future. And of course nobody has
a clue where this is going to go. But I
would assume you said you're doing a lot of reading
and thinking and hearing from people. I assume that's is
that part of your role is to to the National
Golf Foundation to start thinking ahead and saying, seeing some
of the trends here and where things may go in
(20:44):
in the golf business. I absolutely do, you know, and
and having having been doing this for a while here
and knowing the history of the organization pretty well and
the folks have been involved, there's always been a deep
commitment to you know, to not only research, but but
also promotion of the promotion of the game and promotion
(21:06):
of the business. You know, we think it's okay that
people make make a living at Gulf and you know
that we have hundreds of thousands of people that that
do in all walks of golf life. Uh, you know,
they count on golf to provide you know, put roof
over their heads. So we promote and we want to
promote the game just because we're golfers. And like you
(21:28):
you know, I'm all for having more people, you know,
savor the the qualities of this game. You know that
this game could provide the I mean the things that
the joy that it can give is just fantastic. So
we do think forward as well, not only with what
might happen with golf post virus, but how about if
(21:51):
we think about what could happen? So do tell what
do you think? What do you sensing? Yeah, if it's
an inflect shin point and we have some control. When
I say we, I don't mean the National Golf Foundation,
I mean you and me, Jeff, that we have some
control over over the direction that golf might take in
(22:13):
the future. I'd like to plant that seat in your
head and have another conversation with you seriously about what
are the four or five things that you think would
make golf a better game, that would make golf more
enjoyable for more people if you just think about that.
(22:35):
I'm serious invitation to discuss that, because I've been thinking
a lot about that in the last six weeks and
I've got some ideas now. I'm not going to sneak
too many of those out or any of them right now,
but I will love to talk to you about this, uh,
you know, at another at any time and to hear
what you have to think about what would make golf
a better game and more more enjoyable for more people. Well,
(23:00):
and I think that's one of the tricks, and this
is you know, we have to have those conversations, but
you also it feels wrong to be doing that right now,
knowing what's going on, and we're still at this point
and people are dying every day. It feels a little
bit it feels a little bit uh slimy and at
least for me. But at the same time, you'd be
(23:22):
foolish not to be starting to project out and think.
And it seems like in a lot of other industries,
trends that we're developing now are going to be expedited
most not all. UM and golf certainly had a lot
of things going in certain directions. Do you sense that's
kind of the same thing that although this seems so
different in some way, I mean, a public off was
(23:45):
was was not viewed in a good light. There was
a concern about the future of public golf, and I
could make a case, I think today that I'm more
bullish on public golf than I have been in a
long time because of this. UM, Is that your sense
so that that the some of the things that we're
trending will probably get kicked up a notch or two
and and happen even faster. Well, a couple of thoughts.
(24:08):
First of all, I think we're gonna limp out of this.
We're not going to run out of this. I think
we're gonna limp out of it. I think as a
as a national economy, we're gonna limp out. And I
think it's a golf economy. It's not gonna it's it's
not going to be I think a really fast recovery.
But it will be a recovery, you know. I mean,
(24:28):
the American economy and is going to come through this,
and we're going to come through it, and there is
another side and we're gonna be you know, looking forward
to getting there. But I don't think it's going to happen,
you know, quickly. And I don't think the economy is
going to recover in a V type shape. I think
it's going to be a you. And the question is
how deep and how wide is the U. And now
(24:49):
the trends in the game itself, you know, um, I
think there were some positive trends happening. And from a
public golf point of view, you know, you know, there's
only one category. We look at golf courses JEF in
three ways. We look at but we look at them
in three categories. At daily fee, which is a public
(25:10):
golf course owned privately by somebody or some people, private,
be owned by the members, are owned by corporation, doesn't matter,
it's private. And then municipal and municipal golf is it's
a term that goes back way back into into the
thirties and forties. In fact, there's a there's a book
sitting near my office here that the title of it
(25:31):
is Municipal Gulf, a Guide to Operations published by the Way,
was published by the ngf N. We've been very involved
in municipal golf throughout the history and it's about since
we were formed in the thirties. But you know, the
point on a municipal golf is it's the only category
(25:52):
of golf courses over the last fifteen years that has
gotten larger, not smaller. You know, with the closures that
we read about golf course closing, these these closures which
we carefully tracked by the WAY, this is a natural
market correction. But the one category from the municipal daily
fee in private municipal is the only category that's the
(26:13):
same size or less lightly larger than it was when
this correction started fourteen years ago the way two thou
a few so and you'd be, um, you've been you
do track that? I mean I just saw two courses
in Dating out of three closed. Um. Yes, And you
(26:34):
know you look at the situation like that, and again
I read it. I understand these were issues coming for
a long time. But then you also think, wow, what's
going on right now? Those two golf courses might be
seen in a different light in that community. I would think, um,
but maybe not. They just were fundamentally broken, And as
you say, it's part of the correction, I think it is.
(26:57):
I mean we actually we've worked with hundreds of communities.
In fact, Dayton was one of them. We have consultants
that work with the cities and with their with their
golf divisions to try to help them figure out the
market and where they fit into the market. And you know,
we were a little bit surprised by Dayton that because
we didn't recommend that they go quite that far. But obviously,
(27:19):
you know, the city has its own financials to worry about,
and that's part of what's driving it. Probably the market,
it was definitely drove part of it. My guess is
is that you know that the city's finances drove, you know,
drove another part of it. But there's still plenty of
golf there. I have to tell you that there will
go dearth, I mean, and the rounds played won't suffer,
you know, in the day market because those courses closed. Um,
(27:43):
but we are we are sorry to see them go.
But but you have to be somewhat Darwinian about this
in your thinking. Sure, sure, Um, let me take one
quick break again here and we'll wrap up this chat
with a few general questions with Dr Joe Bennetts. All Right, So,
(28:08):
one of the things that I noticed in in looking
through a lot of the data is that you you
these you're you're surveying a kind of a um, well,
a lot of different topics. And I'm sure there are
things that are there, things that you would like to
survey and poll and be able to share with with
(28:29):
the public. That's just a topic that it's just a
tough thing to track. Is there something that's that's just
not something that enough survey you can you can trace
in terms of gauging whatever it is, maybe consumer sentiment
or or the business side, or where people are are feeling,
because for instance, today. You had quite a bit on
(28:49):
on economic sensibilities and the feeling of golfers and where
they feel they'll be. Is there any topic that that
jumps out as is tricky to survey? It's right that
you call it a survey, because it could be a survey,
but you know, we think we think a little more
broadly than that, like you do. There's lots of ways
that one can do research, you know, from from surveys
(29:11):
are certainly one of them. Where we send surveys or
we you know, we can interview people. We can do
focus groups for sure, we can do case studies. So
there's lots of ways to to apply our research techniques,
and we've got a pretty full arsenal of those techniques
here at the Here at the MGF. One of the
more interesting subjects that we're gonna be diving into going
(29:34):
forward is the customer experience in golf. We're keenly, keenly
interested in it because we really do think that generally
the customer experience in golf could be holding back the
potential for growth that we think exists. We think that
(29:56):
it could be suppressing it to some extent, and so
we're going to be studying the customer experience. And I'm
not talking about some of the wonderful places Jeff will
you and I am you know, have a good fortune
of being able to play. I'm talking about the you know,
everyday golf course and and what a golfer experiences, let's say,
(30:18):
an infrequent casual golfer or a new golfer experiences when
they when they go to that business, and how they
how well, how warmly they are received. And so this
is a subject that it's not easy to do. This
isn't just done with just a simple survey and there
you go, there's the answer. Everybody act on it. It's
(30:39):
it's much Yeah, it's much more kind of nuanced than that.
When will involve secret shopping on our part, and yes,
by all means, by all means research, etcetera, to kind
of bring into focus how we might be able to improve,
(31:00):
h improve the culture of golf for more of more
of our players. Yeah. No, I think about a lot
when I go to a course and you you walk
in and either the pro shop is it's uh the rundown,
or the person behind the counters intimidating and not welcoming,
and you think, gosh, I can handle this. But but
the person who's new to the game, and the game
(31:21):
is so tough as it is and a little bit
intimidating and scary, what does that do to them? Order
to a young kid? I see, that's where I think
more probably, Although that said, a lot of us got
into the game and dealt with cranky starters and all
sorts of other things and stayed with it, So I
maybe it's hard to gauge. All right, So listen, I
went through basic training too, but I didn't ask everybody else, right, right?
(31:44):
Is it really? Yeah? Is it a good thing? Now?
All for six weeks? But I came out a better person.
But I think we can make it easier, to be
honest with you, I think we can make it a
heck of a lot more fun. And I think we
can have a have a higher conversion rate from you know,
from interest in golf to trial. In other words, people
say they're going to give it a try to conversion
(32:05):
and when that, when that sequence happens, right, when that
lunch sequence happens properly, I'll tell you we've our research
has shown that people could become totally fanatical golfers, completely
hooked you know, in a period of months. It has
nothing to do with their ability or their score. It
has everything to do with whether they've got the golf gene,
you know, in their DNA and they and they're just
(32:28):
likely to get hooked, and we don't turn them away,
we don't turn them off. One of the things that
I've been hearing and seeing a little bit in person
when I've gone over to a local golf course here
is that the pace of play has been incredibly good,
despite things like uh, cart reductions and people having to
(32:50):
use it, just just different things going on. But it
seems to it literally come down simply to one thing
and one thing only, which is t time spacing. Uh
and it's it's it's is this something? Is this something
you have have done research on before or is it
something that you're aware of now in this situation where
courses have been forced to do ten, twelve, fifteen minutes
(33:12):
spacings and found out, oh wow, that ended that log
jam we always have on the fourth tea. Yeah, we've
done a little bit of research. It's been some years
since we have, but there's been plenty of research done
on golf course operational research on throughput and Yeah, there's
no doubt that every golf course is a little bit
different and you know, has an ideal but it has
(33:32):
Every good golf course has an ideal pace. And it
does have to do with how many people you you know,
you stick into the funnel and you know, at one time.
So I'm glad to hear that that it's picking up
and more people are walking, which is which is a
great benefit. And you know, and so we think that's
a good that's we think that's good too. And you
(33:53):
can't find a push cart anywhere online to buy. They're
they're a hot item here in l A. I can
tell you I talked to a couple of major retailers
who will go unnamed at this point, telling me that
that's the hottest product that they have. And I can
tell you that I saw push cards at the club
that I belong to down here, which is a nice
private club with caddies, and we now have push cards.
(34:16):
We now have push cards, and they are all taken. Generally,
they're all taking because they couldn't buy them, right. Yeah,
the pandemic has ended two of the stranger peccadillos that
golfers have had. Country clubs and push cards and people
changing their shoes in the parking lots. So there's that.
Um uh yeah, it's ridiculous. Why places would I mean
(34:43):
that were those were the kinds of things that would
would turn people off? Who you would tell that to,
who weren't as familiar with the game, just not understanding
why those things were so odd, um you uh so.
So in this time when you're doing all this, if
you are you reading a lot of of things about golf,
are you looking outside because to to other sources for
(35:05):
for inspiration, Well, besides reading your stuff every morning, which
I do by the six in the morning here about
three in the morning your time. Um, I'll be looking
at your stuff every every single morning and looking at
your your commentary, and you kind of help me. You
sift through the and pull forward the interesting stuff. You
kind of curate, you know, things that interest you and
(35:27):
they happen to interest me generally too. There is a
couple of other sources like that, So I do keep
pretty close track of what's being written and what's being
written in golf. Um, but I also do read outside
of the Gulf. And a book that's very relevant to
me recently is a book called Culture by Design. And
this book was written by a fellow by the name
(35:48):
of David Friedman, and I commend this book to you
and others too to take a look at. It's a
very very well written, very easy to read and understand,
and what I like is it's easy to implement. As
my senior staff here will know, because they've all been
(36:10):
given a copy of the book and we've all had
to come up with what we're going to be calling
me NGF Fundamentals. These are the fundamental things that drive
that drive our behavior here at the National Golf Foundation,
not just the things on the wall that we all
have those mission vision statements, but these are the actual
(36:31):
behaviors that will be that are going to be reinforced
here at n GF. And as I got to thinking
about how NNGS culture could improve, even though it's fantastic
right now, it could still get better. I've been thinking
about how the culture and our golf courses could improve
and how how when somebody walked into that place, it
(36:54):
was like walking into a Chick fil A. By the way,
one of my top recommendations we need to be hiring
more people from the Chip fil A stores and putting
them behind the pro job counters, all right, and we
need to get our golf pros out onto the driving range,
identifying new golfers, which is pretty easy by the way
here and I can do it, and giving them a
little quick many lessons to an encourage words of encourage.
(37:17):
But anyway, culture by design is something that I've read
that I think is a great Uh. It's a great
thing for us to be thinking about. And you know,
maybe maybe the subject of another conversation will take Yeah, no, absolutely,
you do sense that that that the great places in
the game there is a culture, uh, and and a
mission that's that's you just feel it when you when
(37:38):
you're there. In other places you don't. And and a
lot of those places survive because they're in spite of
their culture, because they're well located, or it's a good design,
or it's affordable. UM. I want to throw one last
question at you. I I this is a little bit
out of the out of the blue, probably one that's
unfair to ask, but if if if golf started from
(37:59):
scratch today, how many holes would you say based on
your I believe is it thirty six years with the
National Gulf Foundation of of looking at a lot of
a lot of dat. How many holes would it be
the the the average normal golf course. Would it be
a teen? I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think.
(38:21):
I think I think it would be less. I'd certainly
like it to be less on myself. But I think
if if you could start it over, of course we
would do some different and you're the expert on this,
we did some things different about design, wouldn't be sure,
and about you know, and about how quickly the game
could be played. Um, you know, I think that we would.
We would try to keep it to a length that
(38:43):
that the game could be played in two and a
half or three hours. So it used to be played
while walking, and whereas there's a teen and a green
and a tea in a green, etcetera, etcetera, and and
so I think it would be shorter. To be honest
with you, well, I feel like it's it's twelve. That
that that's the sweet spot. The nine is not enough,
and but the twelve is just the right amount. I
(39:05):
love that idea. I was gonna say it doesn't, and
even doesn't, I love it. I love to still the
six and six, to be honest, because even walking I
just like it. You're right, it's twelves twelveays just about
just about perfect. Although I think what you touched on
is the more important point. It's that it's it's the time.
I I think most people start to find themselves now
there they're no matter how focused or uh how little
(39:28):
they have in the way of obligations, that there's something
about that two and a half hour, three hour point
where the attention span starts to to go. And I
I used to think that was a negative, say, saying
something about our culture, but I don't. I don't think
it is anymore. I think it just really is about
given the game, the difficulty of it, and all the
(39:49):
things that go into it, it's that's a fairly normal reaction. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think it's the future too. I mean, I
don't think. I don't think that time con russian in
our lives. It is going to relax, even even though
we're experiencing this moment right now where people are having
(40:10):
a little more time and some people frankly are are
enjoying the lack of that um hurried. You know, we
got to be doing something all the time, failing. I
don't know how long they're going to enjoy it, But
you don't. You don't your senses that that won't change
after this. No, I think that that I think the
mega trend towards you know, constant engagement, not being able
(40:33):
to get away from work, constantly checking your email or
you know, looking at her I watch, um, you know.
I mean, I think that the the blurring of the
lines between work and home for a lot of people.
That's even true today. I mean, I know my staff
will have been working at home for a month and
(40:55):
a half now going on two months. They feel like
they're working, you know, around the clock. Most Um, you
know that there's no you have been a little break.
Of course, we've been a safer at home state, so
they've been fairly sequestered. But I think that that mega
trend of time compression and you know, the you know,
(41:16):
the abundance of choice, and how just I don't think
it's going to get any better. I you know, I
think golf can be a great respite from that rat race.
I think it could be a great respite, but I
don't think that it can be a five hour restite.
Right Well, I can't thank you enough for taking the
(41:36):
time and all the great work you're doing. I will
obviously linked to the website and and continue to highlight
what is just fascinating research, and I look forward to
some of the other topics that the the National Golf
Foundation probes here in the coming weeks and months. The
fantastic chip. It's been great talking with you all. Look
forward to another conversation and do me a favorite. Remember,
(41:58):
I'd like you to think of a handful of things
that you think would make golf more enjoyable to more people.
Deal all right, well, thank you again to to Dr
Joe Bettetts. I really appreciate his time, and I will
link a few things in the show notes that book
Culture by Design sounds quite interesting. And also, of course
if you go to my website Jeff Shackle for dot com,
(42:20):
I've been putting up in the about well every week
when they post their National Golf Foundation findings, and this
week it's courses are open, and there are some interesting
results in the graphs and and data shared about consumer
sentiment and and safe distancing and all sorts of interesting
things that for anybody in the golf business you'll want
(42:42):
to see if you're not tracking. And I do think
it's fascinating and will be fascinating to see what they
touch on here in the coming weeks and what he
mentions in his letter, so I'll keep sharing all that
as always on my website and again The Shack Show.
Thank you again to everybody for listening and especially die
heart rate, and to the show's producer, timper Rotica for
(43:02):
putting this all together. The Shock Show is a production
of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,
visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows, and I'll be back
soon with another Shot Show. Thanks for listening. H
The Shack Show is a production of I Heart Radio.
Back on March thirty one, the National Golf Foundation sent
out its first email letter from their CEO. Today's guest
(00:21):
on The Shack Show, Joe Bettetts, who has been with
the organization since four started as a director of Research,
and he issued a statement essentially laying out what they
would be doing. They surveyed over a thousand golf courses
and since then weekly they've been tracking data also some
feelings thoughts from people, kind of covering a wider ray
(00:45):
really of of I don't want to say random topics,
but in a way they are, but in a in
a good way, and trying to understand what's going on
with the sport, perceptions of of where things stand and
all along. What's been most fast something to me, I
think is that Dr Bettetts has been very adamant about
(01:05):
reminding people that this is a situation that is highlighting
the benefits of golf, but at the same time could
really shine a light on the sport if people do
not appreciate the privilege of being able to go out
and play golf right now, as as so many terrible
things are going on with lives being lost, in the economy,
(01:26):
and so it's it's been so refreshing to have somebody
in the golf industry that that's that's using data but
also using common sense and thinking big picture and and
looking beyond all this to what is best for the
sport and protecting it, but also trying to push things forward.
So I wanted to talk to to Dr Joe Bettetts,
(01:46):
who's down in Jupiter, Florida, about where he has seen
things go up and to this point and possibly where
things are headed into the future. I hope you enjoy
the discussion. So I look back on my els and
I saw that the National Golf Foundation started tracking things
doctor in at the end of March, and I'm just
(02:10):
wondering if you can kind of set up for us
why the National Golf Foundation started doing this and you've
been doing every week now with with these phone surveys
of of golf courses and I believe of golfers. It's
a little bit of a couple of coincidences. One, you know,
are we have a pretty large, substantial research staff here
(02:32):
at n GF, and in our work that we do,
much of the work that we do is private and
it's commercial work. Proprietary to the companies that we work for.
And that's you know, a good uh, A significant portion
of our of our of our work lives here at
n GF. The other side is doing things to research
(02:54):
the game and the growth of the game, etcetera. So
when our proprietary or a commercial project kind of guy
got put on pause by our client base, yeah, I
had a lot of research resources man, man and women.
Power to you to apply somewhere then, So that was
one thing that we had. And then we've got a
(03:15):
couple of unique assets. You know. One one is a
universal database of golf courses in the world. It started
as a database of golf courses in the United States
back and we're back in ninety four where we got
started by the couple of journalists in fact, yeah writers,
they were in Chicago, characters too anyway, you know, they
(03:39):
published some golf magazines in fact. But in any case,
so we have the database of golf courses. We had
the staff, you know, and you know, the first week
I actually hired an outside call agency to make the
calls to do the poll of golf courses. But they
came back and they said, well, we weren't able to
reach x number of I said, well, we can't just
(04:01):
assume that they're closed or open. We have to track
them down. So I turned my staff loose on it,
and they kind of fixed that so that we could
definitively say, you know, what was the status of the
golf courses that we called, And then of course we
found out it was what, which shocked a lot of people.
We were convinced it was correct and that we needed
(04:22):
to keep doing it. So that's where that led. And
then another asset is we have a consumer panel, a
golf a core Golfer consumer panel, which again we use
for a lot of our commercial work about our non
commercial work as well, and so we decided to start
surveying our panel weekly to see how they were holding up,
(04:44):
what their anxiety levels were, how itchy they were to
get out and play golf, et cetera, kind of get
into their heads a little bit. And so we just
started doing it there six weeks ago and now we're
in our seventh week, and I can tell you today
is Wednesday in our our staff is on the phones
with golf courses completing completing this week sample, except now
(05:07):
we're asking We kind of switched because as you know,
plus open. The ones that are still closed remained so
either because they want to be or have to be
very buying a local executive order. So we huddled earlier
this week and said where do we pivot? And so
now we're asking golf courses while we're on the phone
(05:29):
with them, how how open are you? Is the pro
shop open? How about the food and beverage you know
is um? What does the throughput look like? Are your
tey times? You know? You know, length and significantly, et cetera.
So we'll be reporting on that golf course dimension, and
we also will be reporting on a new consumer dimension
(05:51):
come next Tuesday that that will go into the field
probably tomorrow, a new consumer study from our panel. We'll
get wrapped up over the weekend. The guys will work
on the weekend on it and give me some results
on Monday, and you guys out there, we'll get to
see it on Tuesday. You mentioned you were shocked by
the number of courses open shockingly lower, shockingly high number
(06:15):
back when you started this. Uh what we're talking about
six weeks ago? Now, I think I'm high answer your
question in a word high. I mean people were incredulous
when I told them that we found forty eight percent
of golf cluses. We're still we're still open for play. Interesting.
Uh So, one of the things that I've noticed in
your tone in your messages has been, UM, I think superb.
(06:40):
But I'm sure it's been tricky for you. But you
have really been emphasizing a certain caution and you've used
a paparazzi analogy and you've used the yellow light red
light analogy. Where's that coming from? What? What? What is?
What are you seeing either from from the people you're
talking to or your staff is hearing what's striving you
(07:02):
to say those things as you're as you're writing your
weekly letter, setting up these the data you're putting out.
Good question, Jeff, Well, it is it is partly what
I'm hearing from people anecdotally from you know, uh, in
terms of I mentioned in this past weekend boards of directors, uh,
(07:23):
you know, struggling with how to deal with um, you know,
let's say members members, you know how but if we
call them covidiots, um and and they're really having to
deal with this. And then I was on the phone
(07:44):
literally just before the day before I wrote that on
Saturday morning, I wrote that after a few cups of coffee,
somebody called me and they told me about a golf
course that was in flagrant violation that shut down by
the Sheriff's apart. It's punitively closed for forty five days.
And uh, you know, and a couple of a couple
(08:06):
of people who are arrested in the parking lot. D U,
I I lets that part out. Um, you know, it's um,
and so the bad behavior is going to happen. I
think it's gonna be small. But think about this thing
about think about a hundred people, even a hundred golfers. Um,
if you had a hundred golfers, do you think like
(08:26):
maybe one or two of them, let's say two of
them would kind of not be the kind of person
you'd want to set up as a role model for
your kids or something like that. I think we could
probably assume there were at least a couple out of
a hundred, you know, that would give us about a
half a million of those around the country. Then its golfers.
If just if just two percent were you know, not compliant,
(08:51):
let's say, not prudent, you know. So what concerns me,
I guess yes, is that from everything that I read,
and I read a ton We're still in the middle
of this. We're not even in the you know, we're
in the third quarter. Maybe, um and this could roll
right into you know, right into a second wave. I'm
(09:12):
not a pessimist by nature. I'm an optimist, but I
just think we still need to be really careful, both
at work and at play. And I think golf is
perfectly capable of delivering that safe activity for people, hundred
percent convinced that it is, so long as we kind
of self regulate. And you know that we look to
(09:33):
generate peer pressure as opposed to police pressure at our
golf facilities. Right. But the thing I I sense though
that that is also part of your message, is that
you also have h and I don't know how you
survey this or track this, but I also sense you
just feel there is a view of the sport that
(09:53):
um maybe heightens that the the the alert syst of
people looking for trouble, are are wanting to get the game.
Or maybe you've just sense that because of the way
golf is played, in the way it looks, that it
could look wrong. Is that is that a little bit
of what what feeds your your cautionary tone. I think so, Jeff.
(10:17):
I mean, I think you're very intuitive there. I mean,
it's it's there's a certain amount of people of Americans
do not play golf. Of course, I could argue that
tennessee there but don't play golf, and some of them
do carry a negative impression. It's not a majority by
(10:41):
any means, but they do carry, you know, and you know,
kind of proselytize a negative image of the game. And
it's this whole divisiveness of the you know, the one
or two percenters in the vision of golf behind the
gate of the gate, you know, gates and walls, when
we know in fact and n GF is known forever
(11:02):
that you know, golf is a very democratic game. It's
available at all in all places, at all price points virtually.
I think our consumer research tells us that every golfer
that that we have in our panel has fortified golf courses,
you know, within a reasonable driving distance of them, you know,
at various place points. So yeah, I guess maybe I'm
(11:25):
a little sensitive to golf being accused of being elitist,
although you know, and that and that we get to
go out in exercise and enjoy our sport when everybody
else is shut down. I just think that that's a
breeding ground for negativity about the game, which I would
hate to see happen. Uh So you mentioned the democratic
(11:49):
nature and one of the things that I sense so far,
and again we're very early into this, but it seems
like this has a potential to be a renaissance or
um um, something that really sparks a kind of a
renewal and a sense of appreciation for both the sport
but in particular public golf. Is that fair to jump
(12:12):
to that conclusion or is it just too early to
tell in this uh, this dreadful pandemic where things will
go well again? I love. I love the direction of
your love, the direction of your thinking that I do
hear anecdotally, again from from feedback from the material we're
sending out and people writing in and calling saying that
(12:36):
they're seeing people at their golf courses that they haven't
seen in a long time or ever, that there is
there does seem to be heightened interest amongst some not
not any kind of a decline in interest in golf.
And so they're seeing more couples golf, they're seeing more
(12:57):
family golf in the play since that have been denied
the ability to play. Now that they're open, they're seeing
full t sheets. So I do think that there's there
could be a silver lining here in terms of golf,
perception of golf and and participation. Um, you know, we
(13:19):
could sure, we could sure use that. You know, we
won't die without it. I mean, golf's not going anywhere,
but it would be nice if more people enjoyed it.
That's really what we're all about, more people enjoying the
game in the way that they want to enjoy it. Well,
let's take a quick break here. I'm speaking with Dr
Joe Benett's the National Golf Foundation, and will hear from
(13:40):
our sponsors briefly and we'll continue our chat. All right,
we're back. So one of the things that we're are
(14:01):
looking at as part of this situation where golf courses
are open, people are playing. We we do have a
few bad apples here and there, but for the most part,
the reports are just sensational From Lisa, I'm hearing of
golf courses behaving well, golfers everything just being extra careful
and sensitive. So one of the things that's going to
(14:22):
be added to that and I don't know how you
or if you if the National Golf Foundation is looking
at this or or is dreaming of how you asked
this question, but professional golf maybe making a comeback in
early June, and obviously it's it's going to be a
cumbersome task to do that. Do you do you see
(14:43):
a lot of correlation between how people see the pro game,
uh and connected with the recreational game. And is that
something we need to watch in case that doesn't go
well or it goes really well? Is is there a
potential impact on the on the business of golf and
the everyday great question, there's I mean, let me share
(15:05):
a couple of couple of thoughts on that. First of all,
there's there's absolutely no doubt that broadcast golf, streaming golf, etcetera.
Enhanced his interest in the game. It builds interest in
the game. Um, we've seen we saw that throughout the
(15:26):
history of golf. The more exposure golf got, the more
popular golf got from perhaps the exposure Bobby Jones going
through a ticker tape parade in New York City down
the streets of New York City too, you know, Palmer
and Nicholas doling it out, or Palmer or Nicholas and
Watson doling it out to tiger Woods ascension in the
(15:46):
late nineties and into the early two thousand's, you know,
golf on TV has been a terrific driver that exposure.
Almost a hundred million people follow golf either you know,
play it or watch it or lead about it. And
that's where that's where the pent up interest in golf
percolates until it comes to the surface and somebody says,
(16:08):
you know, I'm going to give golf a try. So
any golf on TV is good for the game. And
in my opinion, now how it comes out in June,
I think it will be just fine. I really do.
I mean I don't. We did do some survey work
on this almongst Our Core Golfer panel and while they
(16:29):
would prefer, you know, while golfers would prefer to see
you know, an audience as crowded spectators and and feel
some of that electricity, even even if it's digitally only,
they still said that they would two minute they would
enjoy it, and that they would they would, they would
jump on it. And I think everybody's looking forward to
(16:49):
the match this Sunday coincidentally, Jeff, that golf course Seminole
is seven miles south of me Doe South on the
same road, right, so it's seven miles south of me,
and medalists the following week is about nine miles due
north of me on the same road. So I'm our
office is smack in the middle of the two golf
(17:09):
courses that are going to be that are going to
be featured here in the next in the next two weeks,
and you probably can't attend either event, which is fine.
By the way, it could be that the invitation got lost. No, no, no,
I think they're being extra safe, which is great. Um No,
they are going to be there, are going to be
super extra super extra safe, and I'm just pleased and
(17:31):
looking forward to seeing some of it, you know myself.
And you you mentioned doing some some surveying on that.
Is that a big part of your I mean, what
what is it that the people who are looking to
you for information generally before this what is it they're
wanting to know? And then now in the pandemic, what
what is the thing that you're wanting people from the
(17:52):
golf business are wanting to hear from from you. Well,
you know, before before pandemic. You know, people look to
us to keep track of you know, consumer you know,
consumer sentiment, spending, spending habits, you know, inclin inclination too,
(18:12):
you know, purchase, equipment, travel, etcetera. As I say, we serve,
we serve the commercial side of the game. And we
are we we are members are all golf related businesses,
thousands of them, be they golf courses or be they
the biggest manufacturers or the smallest golf course architect those
(18:33):
are Those are our constituents from the turf industry and
the John Deere's and this agentas and um, you know,
the tours of the world to you know, the equipment manufacturers, etcetera.
So you can imagine what they're all interested in, what
their consumers are thinking and what they might do, um,
what they might want. So we we dive deeply into
(18:57):
that for them both you in many with many in
many different ways, both generally from a macro point of
view and also from a very proprietary point of view,
you know, by looking at their own and studying their
own brand, equity, etcetera. So before the pandemic, that's the
kind of work we did with the industry for the industry, everyone,
(19:20):
whether they be a client or not. You know, we
tracked golf courses, We tracked the number of golfers on
and off course. You know, we track blatant demand or
interest in the game. We track spending, We tracked media
consumption and that kind of behavior, and we report that
globally to everyone because anybody in the business of golf
(19:40):
needs to have those basic metrics. So what's missing now
pandemic wise is a lot of that proprietary or private
work that's been put on hold as companies, you know,
widen wide and far are cutting back on on all
discretionary spending. So we understand and that and we ourselves
(20:01):
are doing are doing the same thing. So I wandered
completely off the no, no, no, no, that's what I
It's where I was thinking kind of where I wanted
to keep the conversation going because obviously I would sense
and I think it's just too early, but one of
the things you'll you'll be really looked to for more
survey work after the great work you guys have done
(20:23):
so far is the future. And of course nobody has
a clue where this is going to go. But I
would assume you said you're doing a lot of reading
and thinking and hearing from people. I assume that's is
that part of your role is to to the National
Golf Foundation to start thinking ahead and saying, seeing some
of the trends here and where things may go in
(20:44):
in the golf business. I absolutely do, you know, and
and having having been doing this for a while here
and knowing the history of the organization pretty well and
the folks have been involved, there's always been a deep
commitment to you know, to not only research, but but
also promotion of the promotion of the game and promotion
(21:06):
of the business. You know, we think it's okay that
people make make a living at Gulf and you know
that we have hundreds of thousands of people that that
do in all walks of golf life. Uh, you know,
they count on golf to provide you know, put roof
over their heads. So we promote and we want to
promote the game just because we're golfers. And like you
(21:28):
you know, I'm all for having more people, you know,
savor the the qualities of this game. You know that
this game could provide the I mean the things that
the joy that it can give is just fantastic. So
we do think forward as well, not only with what
might happen with golf post virus, but how about if
(21:51):
we think about what could happen? So do tell what
do you think? What do you sensing? Yeah, if it's
an inflect shin point and we have some control. When
I say we, I don't mean the National Golf Foundation,
I mean you and me, Jeff, that we have some
control over over the direction that golf might take in
(22:13):
the future. I'd like to plant that seat in your
head and have another conversation with you seriously about what
are the four or five things that you think would
make golf a better game, that would make golf more
enjoyable for more people if you just think about that.
(22:35):
I'm serious invitation to discuss that, because I've been thinking
a lot about that in the last six weeks and
I've got some ideas now. I'm not going to sneak
too many of those out or any of them right now,
but I will love to talk to you about this, uh,
you know, at another at any time and to hear
what you have to think about what would make golf
a better game and more more enjoyable for more people. Well,
(23:00):
and I think that's one of the tricks, and this
is you know, we have to have those conversations, but
you also it feels wrong to be doing that right now,
knowing what's going on, and we're still at this point
and people are dying every day. It feels a little
bit it feels a little bit uh slimy and at
least for me. But at the same time, you'd be
(23:22):
foolish not to be starting to project out and think.
And it seems like in a lot of other industries,
trends that we're developing now are going to be expedited
most not all. UM and golf certainly had a lot
of things going in certain directions. Do you sense that's
kind of the same thing that although this seems so
different in some way, I mean, a public off was
(23:45):
was was not viewed in a good light. There was
a concern about the future of public golf, and I
could make a case, I think today that I'm more
bullish on public golf than I have been in a
long time because of this. UM, Is that your sense
so that that the some of the things that we're
trending will probably get kicked up a notch or two
and and happen even faster. Well, a couple of thoughts.
(24:08):
First of all, I think we're gonna limp out of this.
We're not going to run out of this. I think
we're gonna limp out of it. I think as a
as a national economy, we're gonna limp out. And I
think it's a golf economy. It's not gonna it's it's
not going to be I think a really fast recovery.
But it will be a recovery, you know. I mean,
(24:28):
the American economy and is going to come through this,
and we're going to come through it, and there is
another side and we're gonna be you know, looking forward
to getting there. But I don't think it's going to happen,
you know, quickly. And I don't think the economy is
going to recover in a V type shape. I think
it's going to be a you. And the question is
how deep and how wide is the U. And now
(24:49):
the trends in the game itself, you know, um, I
think there were some positive trends happening. And from a
public golf point of view, you know, you know, there's
only one category. We look at golf courses JEF in
three ways. We look at but we look at them
in three categories. At daily fee, which is a public
(25:10):
golf course owned privately by somebody or some people, private,
be owned by the members, are owned by corporation, doesn't matter,
it's private. And then municipal and municipal golf is it's
a term that goes back way back into into the
thirties and forties. In fact, there's a there's a book
sitting near my office here that the title of it
(25:31):
is Municipal Gulf, a Guide to Operations published by the Way,
was published by the ngf N. We've been very involved
in municipal golf throughout the history and it's about since
we were formed in the thirties. But you know, the
point on a municipal golf is it's the only category
(25:52):
of golf courses over the last fifteen years that has
gotten larger, not smaller. You know, with the closures that
we read about golf course closing, these these closures which
we carefully tracked by the WAY, this is a natural
market correction. But the one category from the municipal daily
fee in private municipal is the only category that's the
(26:13):
same size or less lightly larger than it was when
this correction started fourteen years ago the way two thou
a few so and you'd be, um, you've been you
do track that? I mean I just saw two courses
in Dating out of three closed. Um. Yes, And you
(26:34):
know you look at the situation like that, and again
I read it. I understand these were issues coming for
a long time. But then you also think, wow, what's
going on right now? Those two golf courses might be
seen in a different light in that community. I would think, um,
but maybe not. They just were fundamentally broken, And as
you say, it's part of the correction, I think it is.
(26:57):
I mean we actually we've worked with hundreds of communities.
In fact, Dayton was one of them. We have consultants
that work with the cities and with their with their
golf divisions to try to help them figure out the
market and where they fit into the market. And you know,
we were a little bit surprised by Dayton that because
we didn't recommend that they go quite that far. But obviously,
(27:19):
you know, the city has its own financials to worry about,
and that's part of what's driving it. Probably the market,
it was definitely drove part of it. My guess is
is that you know that the city's finances drove, you know,
drove another part of it. But there's still plenty of
golf there. I have to tell you that there will
go dearth, I mean, and the rounds played won't suffer,
you know, in the day market because those courses closed. Um,
(27:43):
but we are we are sorry to see them go.
But but you have to be somewhat Darwinian about this
in your thinking. Sure, sure, Um, let me take one
quick break again here and we'll wrap up this chat
with a few general questions with Dr Joe Bennetts. All Right, So,
(28:08):
one of the things that I noticed in in looking
through a lot of the data is that you you
these you're you're surveying a kind of a um, well,
a lot of different topics. And I'm sure there are
things that are there, things that you would like to
survey and poll and be able to share with with
(28:29):
the public. That's just a topic that it's just a
tough thing to track. Is there something that's that's just
not something that enough survey you can you can trace
in terms of gauging whatever it is, maybe consumer sentiment
or or the business side, or where people are are feeling,
because for instance, today. You had quite a bit on
(28:49):
on economic sensibilities and the feeling of golfers and where
they feel they'll be. Is there any topic that that
jumps out as is tricky to survey? It's right that
you call it a survey, because it could be a survey,
but you know, we think we think a little more
broadly than that, like you do. There's lots of ways
that one can do research, you know, from from surveys
(29:11):
are certainly one of them. Where we send surveys or
we you know, we can interview people. We can do
focus groups for sure, we can do case studies. So
there's lots of ways to to apply our research techniques,
and we've got a pretty full arsenal of those techniques
here at the Here at the MGF. One of the
more interesting subjects that we're gonna be diving into going
(29:34):
forward is the customer experience in golf. We're keenly, keenly
interested in it because we really do think that generally
the customer experience in golf could be holding back the
potential for growth that we think exists. We think that
(29:56):
it could be suppressing it to some extent, and so
we're going to be studying the customer experience. And I'm
not talking about some of the wonderful places Jeff will
you and I am you know, have a good fortune
of being able to play. I'm talking about the you know,
everyday golf course and and what a golfer experiences, let's say,
(30:18):
an infrequent casual golfer or a new golfer experiences when
they when they go to that business, and how they
how well, how warmly they are received. And so this
is a subject that it's not easy to do. This
isn't just done with just a simple survey and there
you go, there's the answer. Everybody act on it. It's
(30:39):
it's much Yeah, it's much more kind of nuanced than that.
When will involve secret shopping on our part, and yes,
by all means, by all means research, etcetera, to kind
of bring into focus how we might be able to improve,
(31:00):
h improve the culture of golf for more of more
of our players. Yeah. No, I think about a lot
when I go to a course and you you walk
in and either the pro shop is it's uh the rundown,
or the person behind the counters intimidating and not welcoming,
and you think, gosh, I can handle this. But but
the person who's new to the game, and the game
(31:21):
is so tough as it is and a little bit
intimidating and scary, what does that do to them? Order
to a young kid? I see, that's where I think
more probably, Although that said, a lot of us got
into the game and dealt with cranky starters and all
sorts of other things and stayed with it, So I
maybe it's hard to gauge. All right, So listen, I
went through basic training too, but I didn't ask everybody else, right, right?
(31:44):
Is it really? Yeah? Is it a good thing? Now?
All for six weeks? But I came out a better person.
But I think we can make it easier, to be
honest with you, I think we can make it a
heck of a lot more fun. And I think we
can have a have a higher conversion rate from you know,
from interest in golf to trial. In other words, people
say they're going to give it a try to conversion
(32:05):
and when that, when that sequence happens, right, when that
lunch sequence happens properly, I'll tell you we've our research
has shown that people could become totally fanatical golfers, completely
hooked you know, in a period of months. It has
nothing to do with their ability or their score. It
has everything to do with whether they've got the golf gene,
you know, in their DNA and they and they're just
(32:28):
likely to get hooked, and we don't turn them away,
we don't turn them off. One of the things that
I've been hearing and seeing a little bit in person
when I've gone over to a local golf course here
is that the pace of play has been incredibly good,
despite things like uh, cart reductions and people having to
(32:50):
use it, just just different things going on. But it
seems to it literally come down simply to one thing
and one thing only, which is t time spacing. Uh
and it's it's it's is this something? Is this something
you have have done research on before or is it
something that you're aware of now in this situation where
courses have been forced to do ten, twelve, fifteen minutes
(33:12):
spacings and found out, oh wow, that ended that log
jam we always have on the fourth tea. Yeah, we've
done a little bit of research. It's been some years
since we have, but there's been plenty of research done
on golf course operational research on throughput and Yeah, there's
no doubt that every golf course is a little bit
different and you know, has an ideal but it has
(33:32):
Every good golf course has an ideal pace. And it
does have to do with how many people you you know,
you stick into the funnel and you know, at one time.
So I'm glad to hear that that it's picking up
and more people are walking, which is which is a
great benefit. And you know, and so we think that's
a good that's we think that's good too. And you
(33:53):
can't find a push cart anywhere online to buy. They're
they're a hot item here in l A. I can
tell you I talked to a couple of major retailers
who will go unnamed at this point, telling me that
that's the hottest product that they have. And I can
tell you that I saw push cards at the club
that I belong to down here, which is a nice
private club with caddies, and we now have push cards.
(34:16):
We now have push cards, and they are all taken. Generally,
they're all taking because they couldn't buy them, right. Yeah,
the pandemic has ended two of the stranger peccadillos that
golfers have had. Country clubs and push cards and people
changing their shoes in the parking lots. So there's that.
Um uh yeah, it's ridiculous. Why places would I mean
(34:43):
that were those were the kinds of things that would
would turn people off? Who you would tell that to,
who weren't as familiar with the game, just not understanding
why those things were so odd, um you uh so.
So in this time when you're doing all this, if
you are you reading a lot of of things about golf,
are you looking outside because to to other sources for
(35:05):
for inspiration, Well, besides reading your stuff every morning, which
I do by the six in the morning here about
three in the morning your time. Um, I'll be looking
at your stuff every every single morning and looking at
your your commentary, and you kind of help me. You
sift through the and pull forward the interesting stuff. You
kind of curate, you know, things that interest you and
(35:27):
they happen to interest me generally too. There is a
couple of other sources like that, So I do keep
pretty close track of what's being written and what's being
written in golf. Um, but I also do read outside
of the Gulf. And a book that's very relevant to
me recently is a book called Culture by Design. And
this book was written by a fellow by the name
(35:48):
of David Friedman, and I commend this book to you
and others too to take a look at. It's a
very very well written, very easy to read and understand,
and what I like is it's easy to implement. As
my senior staff here will know, because they've all been
(36:10):
given a copy of the book and we've all had
to come up with what we're going to be calling
me NGF Fundamentals. These are the fundamental things that drive
that drive our behavior here at the National Golf Foundation,
not just the things on the wall that we all
have those mission vision statements, but these are the actual
(36:31):
behaviors that will be that are going to be reinforced
here at n GF. And as I got to thinking
about how NNGS culture could improve, even though it's fantastic
right now, it could still get better. I've been thinking
about how the culture and our golf courses could improve
and how how when somebody walked into that place, it
(36:54):
was like walking into a Chick fil A. By the way,
one of my top recommendations we need to be hiring
more people from the Chip fil A stores and putting
them behind the pro job counters, all right, and we
need to get our golf pros out onto the driving range,
identifying new golfers, which is pretty easy by the way
here and I can do it, and giving them a
little quick many lessons to an encourage words of encourage.
(37:17):
But anyway, culture by design is something that I've read
that I think is a great Uh. It's a great
thing for us to be thinking about. And you know,
maybe maybe the subject of another conversation will take Yeah, no, absolutely,
you do sense that that that the great places in
the game there is a culture, uh, and and a
mission that's that's you just feel it when you when
(37:38):
you're there. In other places you don't. And and a
lot of those places survive because they're in spite of
their culture, because they're well located, or it's a good design,
or it's affordable. UM. I want to throw one last
question at you. I I this is a little bit
out of the out of the blue, probably one that's
unfair to ask, but if if if golf started from
(37:59):
scratch today, how many holes would you say based on
your I believe is it thirty six years with the
National Gulf Foundation of of looking at a lot of
a lot of dat. How many holes would it be
the the the average normal golf course. Would it be
a teen? I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think.
(38:21):
I think I think it would be less. I'd certainly
like it to be less on myself. But I think
if if you could start it over, of course we
would do some different and you're the expert on this,
we did some things different about design, wouldn't be sure,
and about you know, and about how quickly the game
could be played. Um, you know, I think that we would.
We would try to keep it to a length that
(38:43):
that the game could be played in two and a
half or three hours. So it used to be played
while walking, and whereas there's a teen and a green
and a tea in a green, etcetera, etcetera, and and
so I think it would be shorter. To be honest
with you, well, I feel like it's it's twelve. That
that that's the sweet spot. The nine is not enough,
and but the twelve is just the right amount. I
(39:05):
love that idea. I was gonna say it doesn't, and
even doesn't, I love it. I love to still the
six and six, to be honest, because even walking I
just like it. You're right, it's twelves twelveays just about
just about perfect. Although I think what you touched on
is the more important point. It's that it's it's the time.
I I think most people start to find themselves now
there they're no matter how focused or uh how little
(39:28):
they have in the way of obligations, that there's something
about that two and a half hour, three hour point
where the attention span starts to to go. And I
I used to think that was a negative, say, saying
something about our culture, but I don't. I don't think
it is anymore. I think it just really is about
given the game, the difficulty of it, and all the
(39:49):
things that go into it, it's that's a fairly normal reaction. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think it's the future too. I mean, I
don't think. I don't think that time con russian in
our lives. It is going to relax, even even though
we're experiencing this moment right now where people are having
(40:10):
a little more time and some people frankly are are
enjoying the lack of that um hurried. You know, we
got to be doing something all the time, failing. I
don't know how long they're going to enjoy it, But
you don't. You don't your senses that that won't change
after this. No, I think that that I think the
mega trend towards you know, constant engagement, not being able
(40:33):
to get away from work, constantly checking your email or
you know, looking at her I watch, um, you know.
I mean, I think that the the blurring of the
lines between work and home for a lot of people.
That's even true today. I mean, I know my staff
will have been working at home for a month and
(40:55):
a half now going on two months. They feel like
they're working, you know, around the clock. Most Um, you
know that there's no you have been a little break.
Of course, we've been a safer at home state, so
they've been fairly sequestered. But I think that that mega
trend of time compression and you know, the you know,
(41:16):
the abundance of choice, and how just I don't think
it's going to get any better. I you know, I
think golf can be a great respite from that rat race.
I think it could be a great respite, but I
don't think that it can be a five hour restite.
Right Well, I can't thank you enough for taking the
(41:36):
time and all the great work you're doing. I will
obviously linked to the website and and continue to highlight
what is just fascinating research, and I look forward to
some of the other topics that the the National Golf
Foundation probes here in the coming weeks and months. The
fantastic chip. It's been great talking with you all. Look
forward to another conversation and do me a favorite. Remember,
(41:58):
I'd like you to think of a handful of things
that you think would make golf more enjoyable to more people.
Deal all right, well, thank you again to to Dr
Joe Bettetts. I really appreciate his time, and I will
link a few things in the show notes that book
Culture by Design sounds quite interesting. And also, of course
if you go to my website Jeff Shackle for dot com,
(42:20):
I've been putting up in the about well every week
when they post their National Golf Foundation findings, and this
week it's courses are open, and there are some interesting
results in the graphs and and data shared about consumer
sentiment and and safe distancing and all sorts of interesting
things that for anybody in the golf business you'll want
(42:42):
to see if you're not tracking. And I do think
it's fascinating and will be fascinating to see what they
touch on here in the coming weeks and what he
mentions in his letter, so I'll keep sharing all that
as always on my website and again The Shack Show.
Thank you again to everybody for listening and especially die
heart rate, and to the show's producer, timper Rotica for
(43:02):
putting this all together. The Shock Show is a production
of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,
visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows, and I'll be back
soon with another Shot Show. Thanks for listening. H
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