May 20, 2020 • 49 mins
In episode 11 of the Shack Show, hall of famer Hank Haney joins Geoff Shackelford to discuss bifurcation. Geoff and Hank talk about the way they could successfully accomplish bifurcation, the disconnection between the professional golfer and the amateur player and how manufacturers would handle bifurcation.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Shock Show is a production of I Heart Radio.
I was listening to the Hank Haney Show, and of
course I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Hank Haney
(00:20):
watched the Taylor Main Relief fun. Yeah, that thing a
seminal that was involving Matthew Wolf, Dustin Johnson, Roy McElroy,
and Ricky Fowler. And of course it as those of
us who love golf architecture knew, we probably wouldn't get
to see seminal really shine, partly because the players maybe
(00:41):
were a little rusty, and also just because they hit
it so bloody far that any of the strategy and
and intrigue was going to be pointless. And and that
proved that, and I couldn't believe it. But Hank Haney,
legendary instructor hosted the Hank Hany Podcast, came around this week.
He's he's he's itching to the pro by for ation set.
And since we haven't talked about the distance issue in
(01:03):
a while, rightfully, so it's just not important. I did think, though,
it would be nice to have a conversation with Hank.
That was a good little bit of distraction about this
topic and all the little nuances and and intriguing elements
and complications of should they ever do something about distance,
which they've been trending in that direction, What would they
(01:25):
do and how would they do it? So here's my
conversation with Hank Haney. So I was listening to the show,
and I appreciate all the shout outs, but I wanted
to delve into this this new Hank, that that is
open to bifurcation. Um. So you watched the Tailor Made
(01:46):
Relief Fund match. He saw Matthew Wolfe swing out of
his shoes. They had a long drive contest on two holes.
You didn't have to keep it. You had to keep
it on the property. That was the only rule on
those long drive holes. And you this, and you came
away thinking that maybe it's time to buy for Kate
to please please tell me what what it was that
(02:08):
caused this. Listen, I knew, I knew that I get
a reaction out of two people, you and John Hugging.
I knew that you guys would would react over this.
My friend John Huggan, you know John, and he oh
you and you yes, and we that for good reason,
because you've been very much opposed to the idea of
of anything correct pretty much, well, for a couple of reasons. One,
(02:33):
I just I don't think it's going to happen because
I think the U. S J are a bunch of
idiots and they let it get to this point and
it's like the you know cats, you know, the horses
out of the barn, and you know, I just don't
see how they're gonna not get bowled over by you know,
titlists and everybody else. I don't know. So so that's
(02:55):
one thing. I think it's just like a dream thing.
But I was watching that match or whatever they call
Taylor made driving relief and frankly, like Jeff, when you said,
like Matthew have swung out of his shoes, he didn't
even really look like he swung out of his shoes. Yeah.
That was probably the thing that really got me was
(03:16):
that was just like I looked like just kind of
a normal drive. I mean, four inches of rain the
night before and what did he hit one to fifty
six and one to six and three sixty five? Right? Yeah,
Oh my god, I mean seriously, I mean I'm like, yeah,
(03:39):
that kind of got that kind of got me a
little bit. I gotta met I believe we've had We
had this discussion, as I recall, and I have a
terrible memory, but I think it was at Petco and
Callaway was doing the Part three or the golf course
set up there, the links at Petco, and we discussed
because I had just seen Cameron Champ and I was
trying to tell you that what's so shocking about him
(03:59):
is that it is so effortless looking, whereas before you know,
John Day, uh savvy, take your pick, uh, even Davis
Love when when he really want to put a little
something behind and he swung pretty hard. But these guys,
it's so effortless. But I I'm still trying to understand.
And Steve and Minnesota Tim tried to get it out
of you. But there's something more there. You're you're bothered
(04:22):
in the sense that you I just don't think it's
interesting to watch, or you realize the absurdity of going
to seminal and not being able to play it as
it was designed. Is that it? Yeah, I don't. I'm
not you know, I don't know what is. I'm not
that into the design, although it doesn't really matter what
the design is because they just fly over everything. So
(04:42):
they're really they're not really playing the golf course as
it was designed. But I don't know if that's ever
gonna happen. I mean, you know, if you if you
roll the ball back, I mean I don't know how
far you can roll it back, to be honest with you,
that that it could it could actually play. When they
were talking and about like Ben Hogan taking his shag
(05:03):
bag out and hitting it, I think they said like
six iron from one fifty five or ones? What did
they say, one? One sixty? What? What? What is it? Yeah?
I think so something like that. And I thought, oh
my gosh, I mean that's like a a nine iron
or wedge and you know, driving it down there, just
wedging on every hole. I mean, it's kind of uninteresting.
I have I would have to. I don't know. I
(05:25):
I three twenty. I was okay with actually the three
sixty five. I that's a little too much. That that's
kind of where that your limit is probably like a
to nine. But but I was okay at three twenty.
But three sixty five. Well, and as you say, that's
all all carry there was no role, no role. That's cool,
(05:49):
that's that's a little that's a little much, but I
just don't. I guess I just don't want my golf
ball rollback. My position is always like I am looking
out for the average guy. I don't care about touring pros,
like I really don't. I don't care what they do.
I don't care how they they would ball they play with,
or how far they hit it or I don't really care.
(06:11):
I just don't want to see the average guy hurt.
And and you know, the the golf course architecture, I
know you're into that, and and you know it's it
doesn't really it's that's not really something that like bothers
me either, to be honest with you, but I just
don't want to see the average guy like hurt, the
(06:31):
average you know, eighteen handicapped, the five handicapped, the ten handicapped,
whatever the you know, the beginner or whatever. I don't
want to see those guys hurt. And to me, the
bifurcation is the only way that that really, you know,
doesn't happen. I mean, that way, the guys won't get out.
So then you know, every everybody would be happy, uh,
(06:53):
you know, you would be happy, and Jack Nicholas, Tom
Watson and there you go. You know everything. I mean,
it's pretty much everybody. I've admitted as pretty much everybody. Uh,
but do you think do you think it's that ever
gonna happen? I mean, do you think I mean, they
seem to be like, well, it's on the back burner
(07:13):
now because the coronavirus. But but I mean, bifurcation, would
that ever happen? Well, isn't it already somewhat in the
rules now? And we already write so many rules for
the pro game And then they have their stipulations and
different things related to high def TV and and other
elements that seemed like we're already there. Um. So that's
(07:36):
what I always struggle with, was is why can't we
adopt a local rule? Which I wrote a chapter about
hankin my book in two thousand and four. Uh, And
they now are finally coming around on the idea of
the local rule concept, which is basically a backdoor. Wait.
You know, I grew up my dad joined Riviera when
(07:57):
I was sixteen, and so I got to play that
incredible course and the sixth hole. The local rule was
always putters only on the green, and that just kind
of always stuck with me that we do create local
rules sometimes for certain situations. And why wouldn't you do that, um,
with a golf ball at at certain golf courses. Why
wouldn't Pine Valley, instead of building new teas, have a
(08:20):
local rule that when you're our guest and you're our member,
you're gonna play uh this ball, the Pine Valley ball
or whatever you want to call it, the classic course ball? What?
What's such a what's so awful about that? Other than
obviously there's difficulty with manufacturing in terms of getting the
manufacturers to stop, uh telling you how expensive that would be,
(08:44):
even though they make all sorts of different balls, and
they they make it way more dramatic than it needs
to be there, and they're incredible at what they do. Uh,
they can do a lot of things. So I that's
where I struggles, what what what is the big deal? Um?
But Mike, Mike, I guess what I want to know
is that you've worked with a lot of people over
(09:06):
the years. The connection between the pro game in the
amateur game has always been an excuse for not having bifurcation. Yeah,
do you realize I thought about that though, Yeah, that
kind of didn't make sense to me. I didn't that connects.
There's no connection anyways, not anymore. What is the connection?
(09:26):
I mean, there's no. Weyn connect to hitting at three
dty correct three D six. Now we can connect to
hitting at three hundred yards. No, exactly hitting at two
hundred and sixty yards of you really want all the
truth and go to go to h you know, a
driving range, and stand out there sometime and and tell
me how many balls you know land past a hundred
(09:48):
seventy five yards. I mean, it's it's such a small
percentage when you look at the overall body of golf
that's played. I mean you just you know, you look
at like top golf, which is wildly popular, and you
know they're their targets are all out there. You know,
a shorter distance and the longest target is you know
(10:09):
what a couple hundred yards or something. You know, when
balls never never even sniff going to that target. I mean,
I don't see the connection anyways, But do you think
it was there at one time? I do. I mean
I used to hit within a club of of an
elite pro and I was a good junior player, and
that was kind of cool to hear that connection that
I was somewhat in the realm of the pro Now
(10:31):
they're totally different game. Yeah, but you do you think
what do you think about the this is what you know.
I don't know if this would change everything, you know,
like rolling the ball back. I mean, I'm not you know, Okay,
if you have two sets roles, I'm okay with that.
That's fine. I think it's good. And I got a
lot of applause from all my buddies. Are you and
hugging and Jim McClean. You know that everybody was zombi
(10:54):
But um, I'm I'm okay with that. I honestly, I
really I'm okay with that. You know, I have a
driving range. Yeah, yeah, this is why, this is why
we're so excited. Because you have had a range golf course.
You've been invited, so you should you should be the
person that should be offended by these increased issues. There's
(11:16):
one thing too low. Let me tell you that my
uh driving range, we have a big This is in Louisville,
Texas and uh the great predictor Steve Johnson runs that
place and you know teaches er well anyway that we
have a pond that's out there because the corp of
engineers made us have a you know, drainageery, so we
made it into a lake, and you hit over a lake.
(11:39):
And the way that we you know, get around not
losing every ball we have because people can't hit it
over the lake even though it's a hundred yards, is
that we have floater golf balls. And the only thing
difference about different about Florida Florida goth balls is is
there just a little bit lighter. That's it. If you
just make a golf ball a little bit lighter, it
(12:00):
will float. But when you make it a little bit lighter,
it doesn't go as far. And the thing is is
people that hit it our range, they really don't even
know the difference. To be honest, No they don't know
the difference. I mean they don't. I mean it, it's
just the ball doesn't go as far, but it still
feels good, actually feels better than a range ball because
(12:21):
it's it's a little softer. Most rangeballs you you go to,
most ranges, they rocks out there. Yeah, so that so
the balls won't wear out so fast. They buy the cheapest,
rockiest balls they can. So our golf balls are a
little softer, they're lighter, they don't go. So we've been
using limited flight balls for years and years and years
(12:41):
and years on our driving range and we've we've never
really had any pushback. To be honest with you, I
don't think there's anybody that says, oh, I'm not going
to go there. They have you know, limited flag because
they don't even really they don't even know. People don't
know how far they're hitting the ball. So, you know,
I think it's like, you know that heart is is
okay too, But when people get out on the golf course,
(13:04):
I don't think you know, they they don't want they're
you know, game disrupted, or they don't want to hit
it short. I mean, it's hard to take away something.
I mean, I don't Here's the thing that I don't
understand though. I don't understand how if they couldn't you know,
Pink made grooves and it became such a big deal
(13:27):
that is just the grooves and a you know, in
an iron mats was such a big deal and there's
all this you know, lawsuits and everything else. How in
the world would they be able to roll the ball back?
I mean, I just don't. I can't picture in my
mind how this could ever happen. Well, that's the big
secret they have, I believe developed the way they believe
(13:52):
it could be changing the number of dimples on the ball.
You and I discussed when when Calay brought back the
magna making the ball slightly larger. And I have a
friend who has a track man who's tested that out
and it it works out that it does take something
off the the big hitters ball, but the the average
person really doesn't see a difference at all. And you know,
(14:14):
and I know you are a fan of a bigger
ball because it's it's just easier around the greens for um,
not as good of a golfer, right, definitely, that was
That's the one thing I think would make the game. Like,
if I would make one change, I would probably it
would probably make the ball bigger. That would be my
one change to golf would be make the ball bigger,
(14:34):
you know, which would be nice because you would like it,
wouldn't it wouldn't go as far, but then I would
I would really like it because the people who can't
play can get the ball up in the air. You know.
I always joke that that's why people love to go
to top golf, but nobody wants to hit on the
bottom floor. Everybody wants to have the second or third
floor because when they hit their grounder, they actually does
(14:55):
get airborne as it falls off the third floor. You know. Yeah,
all right, We're gonna take a brief break and then
I'm gonna explain to you a fun thing about the
floater that you probably don't know, because most people don't
know on the Shack Show. All right. So, there was
(15:16):
a man named Max Bear Hank, and he was a
very good golfer. Uh. He was a friend of Bobby Jones,
Alistair mackenzie. He edited Golf Illustrated, just a just a
fascinating guy in the early part of the game. Elite
elite player ivy leagues. You know, came from a family
of money. Uh Bear paint Is he's a relative of anyway,
(15:37):
he wrote some amazing stuff. He was so determined, Hank.
Now this is to show you that I am not
this insane about the distance rollbank. I know you are, though,
well no you yeah, I'm gonna make the case. He
he when he was lobbying for this, and he was
still a very good player here in the in the
late twenties and thirties and he hosted Bobby Jones at Lakeside,
(15:58):
which he designed, and while Jones was here in town
filming his series, he played the floater. He was so
adamant there was a floater ball. Then about about the
importance of this that he he just led by example
and he was clearly ahead of his time. He was
a little upset with the RNA and U S t
A then that that was ninety years ago. But my
(16:22):
point is what I that's extreme. I I am not
about trying to take distance from people. It's just that,
as you know, to design holes, to set up holes,
and I thought you touched on this very well in
your podcast. We've gone to all these extremes. After Minnesota,
Tim laid out the scoring thing, which you know doesn't
(16:43):
take into account greens that are fourteen and all the
other things. But the point is designed when the ball
starts carrying like that, and then the way of playing
the game is to just vomit and find it. Uh
is possible from a design point of view. It's hard
to watch. I know some people think it's cool, but
(17:05):
it just isn't. And so if it's about chipping off
that ridiculous amount of carry from those guys, but also
without hurting their advantage because we I think, what you
don't understand about the Huggins and and and I and
I'm embarrassed by the way you lant public hugging and
I in with Nicholas and Woods and people like that.
Stop mentioning our names. Okay, first of all, your case
(17:28):
will be stronger if you stick with Nicholas and Woods.
Although Tigers never really said the B word bifurcation, but
but that's what he wants the ball done. But anyway,
so the point that we all try to make is
we want the driver, and the elite driver of the ball,
the Norman, the Nick Price. I mean, you know, every
era has had that great player has been an incredible
(17:50):
driver of the golf ball. And we've lost. It's gone,
it's over and and that's that's what we are ultimately
trying to get back. Besides all the other things that
come into play. Well, actually, actually all the players, if
you look at all the statistics and all the big
you know, the guys that gamble a lot and handicapped
(18:11):
the golf and everything, the number the number one statistic
that they pay attention to by fire is driving. But
it just mostly has to do it just one thing
and has to do it like how far you hit it.
I mean, although they like when they figure out like
the lines and the betting and who's the favorite and
who they're going to pick this uh this week, the
driving is the number one thing that they say they
(18:32):
pay attention to, you know, some but they want somebody
they can hit it forever and you know, and just
be able to find his ball. That's pretty much all
you have to do. If you do that, then it's
hard to be too far off. Yeah, And I think
people saw him Diana last year where uh they had
the incredible rough and Justin Thomas still just just tore
the place apart playing that kind of game because that's
(18:55):
what the numbers suggested he should do. But it's not
interesting to watch, and I think it's gonna now. What's interesting, though,
is not it breeds a certain kind of player. And
and and Steve on your your podcast read all of
Matt Wolf's stats outside of outside of driving, and they're
(19:15):
they're awful. It's the same thing with Camera Champ. Champ.
Camera Champ is just not good around greens and so
and I hate giving this to the to the anti
bifurcation people, but a major championship still weed out that player.
They can't bring that style of golf to a major venue,
(19:36):
I believe, right, I mean, don't you think that's still
the one thing we've kind of seen is bomb and
gauge doesn't work on well, I mean daily daily one
the p g A you know, way back when doing that,
I mean kind it was a good putter, yeah, not
a great short game, yeah yeah, But I still think
I I kind of think it it uh well, well,
(19:56):
and if it works sometimes work at AUGUSTA. I mean,
only guys then have a chance. There you go. If
you're not long, you don't have a chance. I mean
unless that you just catch you here when the weather
is is such, the wind is such, and then you know, uh,
Zack Johnson, you know sneaks in there and Mike Weir.
But I mean it's been a while since that's happened.
(20:16):
But let me ask you this, because you've designed, you
did this shure out wedge with Callaway, you you know
a lot about equipment. One of the things I think
I know where I'm I'm going back and thinking of
all the ways I've tried to help kind of chip
away at you uh. In our discussions on this, and
I know one of them I remember now that really
(20:38):
hit home was when I believe and correct me if
I'm wrong, made the point that that bifurcation would also
allow maybe a little bit of loosening on some some
rules for the average golfer and the manufacturers to make
some things that might be a little more user friendly
to a beginner or or just an average golfer, or
(21:02):
maybe a little more affordable or something else that that
they can't do now because they're trying to make equipment
for their best players, because they think that the average
golfer just wants to play with the pros play. Do
you think that is a possibility that that bifurcation could
lead to manufacturers being able to make more user friendly
(21:25):
stoff for most people. That's a good point. I think
that's a good point. I think that would make the
game better. There's no doubt about that. That would be
something that would definitely make the game bet a matter
of fact, that would I mean, even if I was
again this is the best point, even if I was
against rolling the ball back, I would still be for
(21:45):
bifurcation because I want to make I don't. I don't
want the game to be harder. I want the game
to be easier for the average players. So it's a
big hindrance in the game of golf. I don't care
what anybody says. They can say whatever they want. They
can say. It's the lure of the game. They can
come with all this stuff they want, and I wanted.
The tough things about golf is the learning curve is
so steep, and anything to make the learning curve easier
(22:06):
would be great. And you know, to your point that
you just made. You know, if you're gonna play, if
everybody's gonna play the same thing like the pros play,
then you know, how exactly are you going to do that?
You know it's it's it's gonna be tough. But if
they give you, give him some leeway and let him
do that, Yeah, I think that. I think that's a
that's a great point. I mean, I would probably put
that as as uh as number one point. And that's
(22:29):
why you you use that on me when you were
trying to You're trying to maneuver me. See, and I
feel like we've made progress, we haven't quite gotten you
to the finish line. It sounds like from the podcast.
But we're we're getting there. I think, you know key
part remember don't mention my name and hugging stick with
Nicholas and all right, all right. In your time working
(22:50):
with Tiger, Uh, did you ever discuss this the distance topic,
because I feel like he's kind of come around more recently.
Well no, not really. I mean he didn't, didn't you know,
he didn't really talk about it, just you know, but
he was he was already rolled back, right. He was
(23:10):
the last guy to use a new piece of you know,
like every let's face I mean every year, every year,
when a new driver comes out, it's longer than the
year before. Regardless of what anybody says, I mean it is.
I mean, they can say whatever they want, but it's longer.
It's longer because it doesn't spin as much. It's longer
because it launches at a better angle. Uh, it's it's
(23:32):
longer because if you hit off center, it goes farther
than it you still when you hit off center. Uh,
you know it's longer because you know that for years,
Because you know, the face cup getting hotter and hotter
and hot I mean, whatever, whatever it is. I mean,
when every manufacturer. When they come out with a new driver,
it's longer in some way, shape or fashion than what
(23:55):
it was last year. That's just that's you know, even
if it's just on mishits, but it is. And Tiger
would always be the last one to use new equipment.
So so every year he was giving up a distance
on the UH clubs. And then you could say the
same thing for the balls too. I mean every year
when they come out with a new ball, or every
(24:17):
time they come out with a new ball, there's some
kind of improvement. And what is the improvement? You know,
they don't want to say it, but you know what
they kind of do. But then they kind of don't
because they don't want the U s j up up
on him. But the ball is going to be longer too,
I mean it might, it might, you know, not be
longer with the U S. G A test, but they
(24:38):
know it's longer with the way they test it, which
is you know, spin or spin off of this club
versus this club or you know whatever whatever, you know,
tricks which is basically what they do, you know, tricks
to get around the you know, the rules. So it's
always going Tiger always used a ball that was so
much shorter than every other ball, you know, And I
(24:59):
was like, you know, I was like, why are we uh,
you know, using the equipment that you know, Why don't
we get up there with everybody else? Why are we
spotting everybody fifteen yards here? But anyway, that's just the
way he played. He liked to. But now it seems like,
you know, as he's gotten older, he's not He's not
(25:21):
picking the spinning is ball because it spins good around
the greens. He's picking something that he can get out
there to close the gap. Yeah, and and it does.
Although I think he still uses a pretty soft ball
compared to some guys and a little bit spinning here,
but um, he certainly can move the ball pretty well.
We're gonna take one more break and then I want
(25:43):
to ask you a little bit more about this all
vital um, coming um around to this important moment in
the game. I'm here with Hank Andy on the Shack Show.
All right, so, uh, you let me ask you a question.
(26:05):
Let me ask you a question before you get to that.
What explained to me how this is going to happen?
How are they going to get the manufacturers to go
along with this? They're not even a possibility. Well, I
know because the manufacturers, my sense is they just don't
even want to hear it. Uh, they just are opposed
(26:26):
to anything, even if you present that idea of of
opening up some ways like they did with with adjustability
on drivers, which was good by good argument. And so
they threw them a bone that was dick ruggy and
and they threw them a bone, and uh, in return,
they should be able to tighten up a few things.
(26:48):
The general problem is, you know, is it's one company
titlist and and and you probably also know I've never
understood their position because they are one of those quintessential
American actually international brands synonymous with the golf ball. They
are literally synonymous the way Xerox was synonymous with the
(27:10):
copy machine away. Kleenex is so synonymous with tissue that
we call it Kleenex. And people refer to a ball
as a titlist. That's it's their dominant. They're the best. Uh,
they have been the best for the longest time. And
so logic would tell you if we we took fifteen
(27:30):
dimples off the ball for the pros and that was
sold as the the competition ball, well then their brand
strength and their credibility and their quality control. And they're
made in the USA, and all the things that they
do that make them the best will make them that
would make them even stronger. And they they don't agree
(27:53):
with that point. And and and and a special hello
to Wally you Line, who's probably listening at this point
shaking is and saying no. But is that correct that
that they're so supreme they should they'll they'll own it
no matter what. Probably I would think they would own
it more. I mean that's what I think. That's that
is a good point. I mean I would think they Okay,
(28:14):
so so how about this, can they the governing bodies,
can they jam it down their throat or would it
just opened a whole candle lawsuits? Yeah, they could, and
then they probably would get sued. And uh this year,
you know now things are even um shakier with on
the financial side. You know, they've built this huge nest
(28:35):
egg the U s g A for in theory, it
was for a rainy day, for a year like this
where they would lose the U s open. That was
exactly what Eric Leecher, then on the U s g
A Executive Committee told people at the Annual Media was
part of a public um gathering and said point blank,
that's why we're building this this war chest to to
(28:57):
survive a year where we don't have a US Open. Well,
if that happens this year, in theory that or chest
should be there for that. But it seems like, uh,
that won't be enough in their minds, and so this
could change their position. But the RNA, it seems very
confident and assured that this is this is the right
(29:19):
thing to do is And that's an interesting thing itself
because Martin Slimmers was was not on board with this
notion initially. Uh, he, like you, has come around to
understanding the ramifications from the design point of view and
pace of play and just the silliness of playing off
of five courses at the old course during the Open
(29:40):
and all that nonsense. Um, So I think that's it.
They could they could do it. It's just how to
you know, you're very tough on on Mike Davis on
on your show. Um, I don't know who it is
who bridges that gap between kind of each side. I
feel like Martin Slummers is the person who now can
(30:02):
do that. He has a you know, he thinks like
a businessman, and he and he thinks like somebody who
wants to make the game fun. But he's really done
his homework and so I think he can make and
he's got the accent hank. You know. It's just that
it never goes wrong now, it's always good. Yeah, it's
well it helps yeah. Um so I I think it's possible.
(30:28):
I really do. Now what happens now with this pandemic
and the values of the game changing, I think is
an interesting component in this. And what are you hearing?
People are just I'm hearing a lot of I'm just
happy to be able to play golf again. I'm not.
I haven't heard one person go and say, you know,
I was a little rusty and I think I've lost
about ten yards. I don't think I'm going back out
(30:48):
to play. I've all I heard is I was so
good to be back out and I don't know. I mean,
you know, I I'm telling you, I had my back
operate it on the last last year, like this a year,
you know, go and come in November and then I
have my both my knees replaced or my back was
(31:10):
the February. Then I had my knees replaced in November. Okay,
so I've got the double whammy back surgery and double
knee replacement, and I went out to hit balls like
the first time, and I'm like, oh my god, is
that only as far as I can hit the ball.
But I don't know if I can. I mean, this
(31:31):
is like, I don't know if this interests me. I'm
just being honest with you. Yeah, I get that, so,
I mean it was so far back. I'm like, oh my,
but but I mean the problem is is you know,
you gotta if they do this, I mean, do you
think they can design somewhere? Clearly? Absolutely? So we're just
(31:55):
what are you gonna do the top guys? Is that
what you're gonna do? Well, you're gonna knock off something
on all the top players. But I hope it's it
has to be done in a way that that that
Cameron Champ is still five yards longer than the next
guy on average. You know, it has to be where
that super elite distance guy doesn't get negated down to
(32:19):
being the same as Zack Johnson. That would backfire and
that'd be awful. And we don't want that. We want
long driving to be rewarded and a virtue I believe
was was the way Alistair McKinsey put it. And you
want that, So I think there's a way to do
it that that this these optimized launch conditions that these
guys enjoy, and that now a younger generation all has
(32:41):
at a younger age because they start learning on on speed.
It's all about speed, and then they figure out how
to hit it straight. That you can do that knock
that off a little bit and it's in not affect
the average person. Obviously the ball's the ideal way. Uh.
But you know Tiger just played around the golf. He
brought us perciment is out. I don't know if you
(33:01):
saw that article, um where he brought him out in
justin Thomas always on your website and he mentioned, you know,
the gear effect, and I loved that that description of
the smaller head, which has been the other possible solution
that these guys play. And it's that's titless view that
(33:24):
they would love to see the driver head reduced for
the pro because obviously for business reasons, but also to
create this gear effect to make them throttle back a little. Um,
what do you think of that? See that one that one.
I don't think you can trust what anybody says, because
they all tell you what's best for them. I mean,
(33:46):
don't you know, like the cynic would say, Titles is
saying that because they don't have a driver that sells
and their balls do, and so they want to they
want to hurt the competition that's got drivers, but they
want to stay the same. I mean, that's easy argument
that you know, people people would would make. And you know,
and then the other guys are gonna, you know, hey,
(34:07):
keep our clubs like this, but you know, just knocked
the ball back and we'll still of our driver's share,
and you know, and and the guy that we've been
trying to knock off the top of the mountain, he'll
get hurt. I mean, I don't know. It's just there's
so many there's so many factors in it. Okay, so Camra,
let me go back here, Cameron Chep. Now he's gonna
have a five yard advantage or ten yards or whatever,
(34:29):
fiften or whatever. But but is this a never ending thing?
I mean, you know, this isn't like a is this
a one time deal? Or I mean, do we do
this again in ten more years when somebody bigger, stronger,
faster comes along. I mean, what do you think on
that m That is a tricky one. I think that
we have to take it one step at a time
(34:51):
and try. I think if they do it properly and
the ball you don't want the full float effect. But
if you if you get the ball moving and there's
a little bit of that gear effect just on the
ball that Tiger is talking about, not the driverhead, but
just that that slight bit of backing off that that's
(35:12):
going to make a big difference in terms of how
players swing and approach. I mean, you surely have seen
some of the videos where people put on put put
a young player on per Simmon or the early metal
woods and put them on the track man, and and
it's the way they swing, the speed they're at. It
(35:33):
really gets exposed when when the head is smaller um
and so. But if the ball has a similar effect,
but you'll leave the head size the way it is,
but the ball could move a little bit more. If
you hit a knuckler, he hit it a little funky.
I think you're gonna see the same kind of gear effect.
And and and guess what, Hank, you know you still
(35:54):
have to play golf balls. To play golf, you have
to buy them. It's this amazing thing. You don't have
to buy a new driver every year. You have to
make golf balls to play. And that's another thing I've
never understood about their argument that you're always going to
need them. So that's a good point. I don't get
that argument. That doesn't make any sense. I mean, they're
(36:15):
still gonna sell the same amount of god balls, They're
still going to be, you know, dominant. Actually, they'll sell
more gold balls the first couple of years because you know,
when if anything happened, then people would be trying them out.
You know, they'd be trying this brand versus this brand,
versus brand versus this brand. I mean, you know, you would.
You know, right now people are kind of dialed in.
I mean there's a certain you know, aspect of people
(36:38):
that just say, well, I mean they're all the same,
they're all great. You know, you'd be trying them out
where they might sell more. Yeah, with with golf balls,
you mean yeah, yeah, well the other companies more people.
You'll be trying them out, trying different different ones. Yeah, yeah,
they've up their game. Some of the other companies and
that's part of it. But Title is still has that
(36:58):
that trust factor that's that's unique, and I think they'd
retain it um. But we'll we'll, we'll see. And again
I don't know how what happens now with with sort
of the change in values. I sense people are well,
first of all, since I've been putting this stuff out
there and complaining about it, well after Jack Nicholas and
many other people, obviously, uh, that there is a change
(37:23):
that people do sense that it's not good for the sport,
uh in certain ways. I mean I have problems with
it on many levels. Obviously the architecture. I don't like
this idea of kids learning how to swing hard as
hard as possible. Uh. It just seems to me that's
that's nuts. That's going to lead to injuries. It's just
(37:44):
and it's just not as interesting to watch as we saw.
I mean, seminal could be really interesting. It does. It
shouldn't need greens at fourteen, but that's what it has
to protect it, and it just isn't. Distance is not
compelling on television unless it is absolutely you know, the
cameras have to be positioned to get that speed shot.
(38:06):
They you have to see the ball going way by
somebody else. It's just there are a lot of dynamics
to make distance exciting. You know what. One of the
things that's for sure is is what they've done to
protect the courses because of the distance has made it,
you know, much more difficult for the average player. I
thought about that. I mean, you know, pin green speed
(38:28):
number one, but uh, you know, fear how close it's
mulling around the greens and the pin placements on the
edges and age that about that, but green speed number
one for sure. Yeah, it's a killer. It's a killer
for pace to play. You know. One of the things
I've been hearing from from people who went back to
(38:49):
playing after a break here and of course maybe wasn't
maintained to the normal standards. But you know, thankfully all
golf courses continued some form of maintenance it I I've
heard about except maybe a few select cases, which is incredible.
That was a real um concern about what that would
mean because you know, as you know, I'm sure you've
(39:10):
seen a golf course when it doesn't get maintained for
about two weeks. It's it's stunning what happens. But green
speeds are slower, and and I've heard some people that,
you know, it wasn't great, but pace of play got
so much better, and tea time spacing got a little
bit better, and and miraculously, gosh, you know, people are
playing it at the right pace when the when the
(39:31):
spacings there. So there are all these little values that
people become more aware of, and I just wonder how
many are going, Yeah, gosh, I can't wait to get
out there and then try to figure out how to
get ten more yards or or buy something that will
do that. I think people are just so happy to
play golf that they'll they'll recognize it um. Now. The
people running the pro game. The other area that's a
(39:52):
problem is they, as you know, are now hooked on
the athleticism and promoting. You know, they don't refer to
him as golf is anymore. They're athletes. J Monagan's always
you know, these athletes, these athletes, you know, and it's
a marketing angle that they think. They think if they
if everybody hit the ball the same way, I mean
(40:14):
the same distance. Okay, if everybody hit the ball the
same distance, then you would you would still have the
same athletic thing, because then the big thing would be
are you fast enough, strong enough, big enough to get
it out of the rough? I mean that that would
be the distinguishing factor. Besides, you know how straight you
(40:34):
could hit it. If everybody hit it the same distance,
then you know, everybody would end up being, you know,
looking like Chepka because and DJ because you know, the
whole the only way you could distinguish yourself was are
you strong enough to get it out of the rough?
Now you don't, you know, those guys are. That's a
part of the factor, but the other part of the factors.
(40:56):
They're hitting a wedge anyway, so it doesn't really matter
right and they know um and they will And whenever
people say, well just grow the rough and those guys
just laugh, You're gonna make it even better for me
because I'm I'm strong enough to hit it out of
rough and I've got a nine iron when somebody else
has a six iron. Uh, and they just they laugh.
And so that hasn't worked through course set up. Now
(41:17):
this has going. But this has been like this forever.
I mean, you know, I remember back and you know
when I was working with Marco Mira and this is
like you know, early eighties and every and I you know,
I could never you know, he won the Masters, he
won the Open championship, but I could never you know,
picture him how he could ever win a US Open.
I mean, he just he he didn't hit it long enough.
(41:39):
I mean, and he missed whenever he missed a fairway.
Uh he he would. He never missed like uh you know,
phil or Payne, Stewart, he missed like you know, he
just missed by a yard or two. And he was
and he wasn't you know, big enough, strong enough, fast
enough to handle that rough where the guys that either
(41:59):
hit really why I could get lucky over there where
everybody was trampled down, or they could you know, hit
it up there and hit a shorter club out and
there was strong enough to get it out. I mean,
I feel like there's no chance he as I don't know,
you know, that seems like that's what I mean about,
you know, the guys getting bigger and stronger so that
they could handle it. That would become the distinguishing factor. Then,
(42:21):
you know, Mike Davis tried to have graduated rough to
help people like Marc. O'my, I'm just saying you know,
just you're a little tough on you know, you're you're
a little rough on there on the show, he's hey,
where is that guy hiding by the way. Well, I
think they've chosen all the governing bodies to be pretty quiet.
There's not much they can say. They although they did
(42:41):
roll out the news yesterday of canceling all the locals
and sectionals for the US Open way and what about that?
Tell me about that? What do you think about that?
Today said the US Open? How can an open? How
can be that? I'm still trying to wrap my head
around it. But my and I've been reading a few
things and and asking some people, and I I just
don't get it hanked to be. To be honest, I
(43:03):
know there's there's a good reason um that they did it.
I really do. I haven't asked yet, but I struggle
because it's such an integral part of the US Open
and the people who run the sectionals, and I can
I can't understand maybe the locals that the local qualifyings
a lot more events, but the sectional you could do
with the people who are exempted sectionals normally and maybe
(43:26):
maybe add the feel to the field a little bit
based on some some amateur or other rankings. You could
do something anyway. The point is those are run by
state and regional golf associations. The U s g A
just helps out a little bit, but those are local
operations and they're very safe. Everybody spread out tea time wise.
The only time anybody gets together as a group is
(43:47):
to look at the scoreboard. And even then it's not
like people are standing on top of each other, um,
and they're some of them are pacing, and some of
them are on the phone thinking about the making their plans.
So I'm a little surprised that they, especially as U
s G has gotten so proud and they've did a
whole marketing campaign around it about that part of the tournament,
(44:08):
and then just to kind of cut it off seemed
strange to me, because if they're going to play in September,
there's still a little bit of time to to sort
through that. So I think they have some logistical reasons,
but I think it's gonna be really bizarre. Don't you
need to call the US Open and yeah, it's an invitation,
and then they're picking the field and the amateur one
(44:30):
is is being selected, and that's always been rough with
them in the Walker Cup. You menagtioned it on a
larger scale. I think they're going to open themselves up
to some criticism, it seems. But but I ye know,
I've been asking and I did a poem. I say,
people are just they just want to US Open. They
don't care how It's not like it's not like any
qualifiers gonna win the tournament in anyways. It's not gonna happen. No,
(44:53):
but they're Gosh, there's such a great part of it.
It adds such a different I mean, you just go
to US Open, and you know, it's just so great
when there's some guy they're hitting balls next to Tiger
Woods that that has made it there and as a
good player, and and then five years later that player
turns out to be a you know, Axander Schaffle or something.
(45:14):
I love that about the us O. But I think
everybody does. Yeah, well they won't. They won't have the
caddy player. Bet on who's going to be the high score?
What's the high score going to be eight or nine? No,
probably be eliminated. Everybody will be happy to be there. Well,
I'm gonna let you go. I appreciate your time. I'm really,
I'm now I'm gonna keep coaching you though, on on
(45:36):
making this case now that you're on our team and
I'm not gonna let you off the bifurcation team, like
like Brandon Shambley kind of leaves a comes and goes,
We're going to keep you. I'm on your team. Your
your argument was is a great one about giving him
a chance to do other stuff with the equipment or
the I like, yeah, I knew that would pull out
(45:57):
your heart strings get you. Yeah that I remember the
magna you were you were intrigued by the magnet ball.
And get some of those magnets and test them out,
or have have somebody who's got the crazy clubhead speed,
Uh test them out and see the numbers. You'll see it.
It knocks just a little bit off them, and uh
doesn't hurt the Would that a little bit make you happy? Though?
I mean really, I mean would that be from just
(46:19):
strictly how much do you need to come off? How
much did that he hit that ball? Three? It would
really be nice. How much student needs to come off
of me? Yeah? I wouldn't look at him, but I
look at the average numbers and and and a brown
eight percent would be really amazing from a design point
of view. Just from yeah. I mean hen at l
(46:41):
a country club where they're gonna have the US Open,
where I worked with Gil Hants on the on the
restoration of the course. We picked up two fairway bunkers
and moved them down in two thousand and nine and
ten when we did it, one of those bunkers we
picked up and moved. We're picking it up and moving
it again on the second hall Oal just in that time.
(47:02):
I mean, it's just it's just dumb. It's just it's stupid,
and uh, it doesn't make the game better, more interesting,
and it doesn't really sell more equipment either, I don't think.
But we'll try. We're gonna, we're gonna see what happens.
I appreciate you. You're on team bifurcation. Remember Nicholas and Woods,
(47:22):
not Shackelford. And remember that player. Everybody, they're all there.
I don't know about dropping Gary player. That could be
hack of ill dicey for you. They're they're all, they're all,
they're all. He's good. Yeah, don't get me wrong. He's
better again, Gary Player, Lee Trevino, Tom Watson better again
than Hugging the Shape. Hey, thanks, thanks so much for
the time. And uh, and of course everybody should tune
(47:44):
into the Hank Candy Show and subscribe wherever they get
their podcasts. Thanks Hank. Alright, check, all right, well, thank
you again to Hank Cany. Of course, it's the Hank
Cany Podcast. You can get it wherever pods are streamed.
It's easy to find. And uh it is a part
of the I Heart family, and I am proud to
be part of the I Heart family. And of course
(48:05):
the Shack Show is a production of our Heart Radio.
I don't know if I'm gonna put any show notes
up for this one other than some links to uh
to Hank show. I don't think I need to. Maybe
I'll dig up something on Max bar on the floater ball,
now that I think about it, that's kind of fun.
And uh that there's an old newspaper article about how
he was doing that, and I got to kick out
(48:25):
of Hank mentioning the floater that he uses. I'm actually
gonna find out too what brand ball that is. So
any other range purveyors out there who would like to
provide us who have a limited flight situation, I would
like to provide us something that is not like hitting
a rock that would be wonderful, so I'll find out
what brand that is as well. Anyhow, thank you again
(48:47):
as always for listening to The Shack Show. It is
a production of I Heart Radio and as always you
know that for more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. Thanks again and I will
talk to you soon here on The Shack Show. H
The Shock Show is a production of I Heart Radio.
I was listening to the Hank Haney Show, and of
course I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Hank Haney
(00:20):
watched the Taylor Main Relief fun. Yeah, that thing a
seminal that was involving Matthew Wolf, Dustin Johnson, Roy McElroy,
and Ricky Fowler. And of course it as those of
us who love golf architecture knew, we probably wouldn't get
to see seminal really shine, partly because the players maybe
(00:41):
were a little rusty, and also just because they hit
it so bloody far that any of the strategy and
and intrigue was going to be pointless. And and that
proved that, and I couldn't believe it. But Hank Haney,
legendary instructor hosted the Hank Hany Podcast, came around this week.
He's he's he's itching to the pro by for ation set.
And since we haven't talked about the distance issue in
(01:03):
a while, rightfully, so it's just not important. I did think, though,
it would be nice to have a conversation with Hank.
That was a good little bit of distraction about this
topic and all the little nuances and and intriguing elements
and complications of should they ever do something about distance,
which they've been trending in that direction, What would they
(01:25):
do and how would they do it? So here's my
conversation with Hank Haney. So I was listening to the show,
and I appreciate all the shout outs, but I wanted
to delve into this this new Hank, that that is
open to bifurcation. Um. So you watched the Tailor Made
(01:46):
Relief Fund match. He saw Matthew Wolfe swing out of
his shoes. They had a long drive contest on two holes.
You didn't have to keep it. You had to keep
it on the property. That was the only rule on
those long drive holes. And you this, and you came
away thinking that maybe it's time to buy for Kate
to please please tell me what what it was that
(02:08):
caused this. Listen, I knew, I knew that I get
a reaction out of two people, you and John Hugging.
I knew that you guys would would react over this.
My friend John Huggan, you know John, and he oh
you and you yes, and we that for good reason,
because you've been very much opposed to the idea of
of anything correct pretty much, well, for a couple of reasons. One,
(02:33):
I just I don't think it's going to happen because
I think the U. S J are a bunch of
idiots and they let it get to this point and
it's like the you know cats, you know, the horses
out of the barn, and you know, I just don't
see how they're gonna not get bowled over by you know,
titlists and everybody else. I don't know. So so that's
(02:55):
one thing. I think it's just like a dream thing.
But I was watching that match or whatever they call
Taylor made driving relief and frankly, like Jeff, when you said,
like Matthew have swung out of his shoes, he didn't
even really look like he swung out of his shoes. Yeah.
That was probably the thing that really got me was
(03:16):
that was just like I looked like just kind of
a normal drive. I mean, four inches of rain the
night before and what did he hit one to fifty
six and one to six and three sixty five? Right? Yeah,
Oh my god, I mean seriously, I mean I'm like, yeah,
(03:39):
that kind of got that kind of got me a
little bit. I gotta met I believe we've had We
had this discussion, as I recall, and I have a
terrible memory, but I think it was at Petco and
Callaway was doing the Part three or the golf course
set up there, the links at Petco, and we discussed
because I had just seen Cameron Champ and I was
trying to tell you that what's so shocking about him
(03:59):
is that it is so effortless looking, whereas before you know,
John Day, uh savvy, take your pick, uh, even Davis
Love when when he really want to put a little
something behind and he swung pretty hard. But these guys,
it's so effortless. But I I'm still trying to understand.
And Steve and Minnesota Tim tried to get it out
of you. But there's something more there. You're you're bothered
(04:22):
in the sense that you I just don't think it's
interesting to watch, or you realize the absurdity of going
to seminal and not being able to play it as
it was designed. Is that it? Yeah, I don't. I'm
not you know, I don't know what is. I'm not
that into the design, although it doesn't really matter what
the design is because they just fly over everything. So
(04:42):
they're really they're not really playing the golf course as
it was designed. But I don't know if that's ever
gonna happen. I mean, you know, if you if you
roll the ball back, I mean I don't know how
far you can roll it back, to be honest with you,
that that it could it could actually play. When they
were talking and about like Ben Hogan taking his shag
(05:03):
bag out and hitting it, I think they said like
six iron from one fifty five or ones? What did
they say, one? One sixty? What? What? What is it? Yeah?
I think so something like that. And I thought, oh
my gosh, I mean that's like a a nine iron
or wedge and you know, driving it down there, just
wedging on every hole. I mean, it's kind of uninteresting.
I have I would have to. I don't know. I
(05:25):
I three twenty. I was okay with actually the three
sixty five. I that's a little too much. That that's
kind of where that your limit is probably like a
to nine. But but I was okay at three twenty.
But three sixty five. Well, and as you say, that's
all all carry there was no role, no role. That's cool,
(05:49):
that's that's a little that's a little much, but I
just don't. I guess I just don't want my golf
ball rollback. My position is always like I am looking
out for the average guy. I don't care about touring pros,
like I really don't. I don't care what they do.
I don't care how they they would ball they play with,
or how far they hit it or I don't really care.
(06:11):
I just don't want to see the average guy hurt.
And and you know, the the golf course architecture, I
know you're into that, and and you know it's it
doesn't really it's that's not really something that like bothers
me either, to be honest with you, but I just
don't want to see the average guy like hurt, the
(06:31):
average you know, eighteen handicapped, the five handicapped, the ten handicapped,
whatever the you know, the beginner or whatever. I don't
want to see those guys hurt. And to me, the
bifurcation is the only way that that really, you know,
doesn't happen. I mean, that way, the guys won't get out.
So then you know, every everybody would be happy, uh,
(06:53):
you know, you would be happy, and Jack Nicholas, Tom
Watson and there you go. You know everything. I mean,
it's pretty much everybody. I've admitted as pretty much everybody. Uh,
but do you think do you think it's that ever
gonna happen? I mean, do you think I mean, they
seem to be like, well, it's on the back burner
(07:13):
now because the coronavirus. But but I mean, bifurcation, would
that ever happen? Well, isn't it already somewhat in the
rules now? And we already write so many rules for
the pro game And then they have their stipulations and
different things related to high def TV and and other
elements that seemed like we're already there. Um. So that's
(07:36):
what I always struggle with, was is why can't we
adopt a local rule? Which I wrote a chapter about
hankin my book in two thousand and four. Uh, And
they now are finally coming around on the idea of
the local rule concept, which is basically a backdoor. Wait.
You know, I grew up my dad joined Riviera when
(07:57):
I was sixteen, and so I got to play that
incredible course and the sixth hole. The local rule was
always putters only on the green, and that just kind
of always stuck with me that we do create local
rules sometimes for certain situations. And why wouldn't you do that, um,
with a golf ball at at certain golf courses. Why
wouldn't Pine Valley, instead of building new teas, have a
(08:20):
local rule that when you're our guest and you're our member,
you're gonna play uh this ball, the Pine Valley ball
or whatever you want to call it, the classic course ball? What?
What's such a what's so awful about that? Other than
obviously there's difficulty with manufacturing in terms of getting the
manufacturers to stop, uh telling you how expensive that would be,
(08:44):
even though they make all sorts of different balls, and
they they make it way more dramatic than it needs
to be there, and they're incredible at what they do. Uh,
they can do a lot of things. So I that's
where I struggles, what what what is the big deal? Um?
But Mike, Mike, I guess what I want to know
is that you've worked with a lot of people over
(09:06):
the years. The connection between the pro game in the
amateur game has always been an excuse for not having bifurcation. Yeah,
do you realize I thought about that though, Yeah, that
kind of didn't make sense to me. I didn't that connects.
There's no connection anyways, not anymore. What is the connection?
(09:26):
I mean, there's no. Weyn connect to hitting at three
dty correct three D six. Now we can connect to
hitting at three hundred yards. No, exactly hitting at two
hundred and sixty yards of you really want all the
truth and go to go to h you know, a
driving range, and stand out there sometime and and tell
me how many balls you know land past a hundred
(09:48):
seventy five yards. I mean, it's it's such a small
percentage when you look at the overall body of golf
that's played. I mean you just you know, you look
at like top golf, which is wildly popular, and you
know they're their targets are all out there. You know,
a shorter distance and the longest target is you know
(10:09):
what a couple hundred yards or something. You know, when
balls never never even sniff going to that target. I mean,
I don't see the connection anyways, But do you think
it was there at one time? I do. I mean
I used to hit within a club of of an
elite pro and I was a good junior player, and
that was kind of cool to hear that connection that
I was somewhat in the realm of the pro Now
(10:31):
they're totally different game. Yeah, but you do you think
what do you think about the this is what you know.
I don't know if this would change everything, you know,
like rolling the ball back. I mean, I'm not you know, Okay,
if you have two sets roles, I'm okay with that.
That's fine. I think it's good. And I got a
lot of applause from all my buddies. Are you and
hugging and Jim McClean. You know that everybody was zombi
(10:54):
But um, I'm I'm okay with that. I honestly, I
really I'm okay with that. You know, I have a
driving range. Yeah, yeah, this is why, this is why
we're so excited. Because you have had a range golf course.
You've been invited, so you should you should be the
person that should be offended by these increased issues. There's
(11:16):
one thing too low. Let me tell you that my
uh driving range, we have a big This is in Louisville,
Texas and uh the great predictor Steve Johnson runs that
place and you know teaches er well anyway that we
have a pond that's out there because the corp of
engineers made us have a you know, drainageery, so we
made it into a lake, and you hit over a lake.
(11:39):
And the way that we you know, get around not
losing every ball we have because people can't hit it
over the lake even though it's a hundred yards, is
that we have floater golf balls. And the only thing
difference about different about Florida Florida goth balls is is
there just a little bit lighter. That's it. If you
just make a golf ball a little bit lighter, it
(12:00):
will float. But when you make it a little bit lighter,
it doesn't go as far. And the thing is is
people that hit it our range, they really don't even
know the difference. To be honest, No they don't know
the difference. I mean they don't. I mean it, it's
just the ball doesn't go as far, but it still
feels good, actually feels better than a range ball because
(12:21):
it's it's a little softer. Most rangeballs you you go to,
most ranges, they rocks out there. Yeah, so that so
the balls won't wear out so fast. They buy the cheapest,
rockiest balls they can. So our golf balls are a
little softer, they're lighter, they don't go. So we've been
using limited flight balls for years and years and years
(12:41):
and years on our driving range and we've we've never
really had any pushback. To be honest with you, I
don't think there's anybody that says, oh, I'm not going
to go there. They have you know, limited flag because
they don't even really they don't even know. People don't
know how far they're hitting the ball. So, you know,
I think it's like, you know that heart is is
okay too, But when people get out on the golf course,
(13:04):
I don't think you know, they they don't want they're
you know, game disrupted, or they don't want to hit
it short. I mean, it's hard to take away something.
I mean, I don't Here's the thing that I don't
understand though. I don't understand how if they couldn't you know,
Pink made grooves and it became such a big deal
(13:27):
that is just the grooves and a you know, in
an iron mats was such a big deal and there's
all this you know, lawsuits and everything else. How in
the world would they be able to roll the ball back?
I mean, I just don't. I can't picture in my
mind how this could ever happen. Well, that's the big
secret they have, I believe developed the way they believe
(13:52):
it could be changing the number of dimples on the ball.
You and I discussed when when Calay brought back the
magna making the ball slightly larger. And I have a
friend who has a track man who's tested that out
and it it works out that it does take something
off the the big hitters ball, but the the average
person really doesn't see a difference at all. And you know,
(14:14):
and I know you are a fan of a bigger
ball because it's it's just easier around the greens for um,
not as good of a golfer, right, definitely, that was
That's the one thing I think would make the game. Like,
if I would make one change, I would probably it
would probably make the ball bigger. That would be my
one change to golf would be make the ball bigger,
(14:34):
you know, which would be nice because you would like it,
wouldn't it wouldn't go as far, but then I would
I would really like it because the people who can't
play can get the ball up in the air. You know.
I always joke that that's why people love to go
to top golf, but nobody wants to hit on the
bottom floor. Everybody wants to have the second or third
floor because when they hit their grounder, they actually does
(14:55):
get airborne as it falls off the third floor. You know. Yeah,
all right, We're gonna take a brief break and then
I'm gonna explain to you a fun thing about the
floater that you probably don't know, because most people don't
know on the Shack Show. All right. So, there was
(15:16):
a man named Max Bear Hank, and he was a
very good golfer. Uh. He was a friend of Bobby Jones,
Alistair mackenzie. He edited Golf Illustrated, just a just a
fascinating guy in the early part of the game. Elite
elite player ivy leagues. You know, came from a family
of money. Uh Bear paint Is he's a relative of anyway,
(15:37):
he wrote some amazing stuff. He was so determined, Hank.
Now this is to show you that I am not
this insane about the distance rollbank. I know you are, though,
well no you yeah, I'm gonna make the case. He
he when he was lobbying for this, and he was
still a very good player here in the in the
late twenties and thirties and he hosted Bobby Jones at Lakeside,
(15:58):
which he designed, and while Jones was here in town
filming his series, he played the floater. He was so
adamant there was a floater ball. Then about about the
importance of this that he he just led by example
and he was clearly ahead of his time. He was
a little upset with the RNA and U S t
A then that that was ninety years ago. But my
(16:22):
point is what I that's extreme. I I am not
about trying to take distance from people. It's just that,
as you know, to design holes, to set up holes,
and I thought you touched on this very well in
your podcast. We've gone to all these extremes. After Minnesota,
Tim laid out the scoring thing, which you know doesn't
(16:43):
take into account greens that are fourteen and all the
other things. But the point is designed when the ball
starts carrying like that, and then the way of playing
the game is to just vomit and find it. Uh
is possible from a design point of view. It's hard
to watch. I know some people think it's cool, but
(17:05):
it just isn't. And so if it's about chipping off
that ridiculous amount of carry from those guys, but also
without hurting their advantage because we I think, what you
don't understand about the Huggins and and and I and
I'm embarrassed by the way you lant public hugging and
I in with Nicholas and Woods and people like that.
Stop mentioning our names. Okay, first of all, your case
(17:28):
will be stronger if you stick with Nicholas and Woods.
Although Tigers never really said the B word bifurcation, but
but that's what he wants the ball done. But anyway,
so the point that we all try to make is
we want the driver, and the elite driver of the ball,
the Norman, the Nick Price. I mean, you know, every
era has had that great player has been an incredible
(17:50):
driver of the golf ball. And we've lost. It's gone,
it's over and and that's that's what we are ultimately
trying to get back. Besides all the other things that
come into play. Well, actually, actually all the players, if
you look at all the statistics and all the big
you know, the guys that gamble a lot and handicapped
(18:11):
the golf and everything, the number the number one statistic
that they pay attention to by fire is driving. But
it just mostly has to do it just one thing
and has to do it like how far you hit it.
I mean, although they like when they figure out like
the lines and the betting and who's the favorite and
who they're going to pick this uh this week, the
driving is the number one thing that they say they
(18:32):
pay attention to, you know, some but they want somebody
they can hit it forever and you know, and just
be able to find his ball. That's pretty much all
you have to do. If you do that, then it's
hard to be too far off. Yeah, And I think
people saw him Diana last year where uh they had
the incredible rough and Justin Thomas still just just tore
the place apart playing that kind of game because that's
(18:55):
what the numbers suggested he should do. But it's not
interesting to watch, and I think it's gonna now. What's interesting, though,
is not it breeds a certain kind of player. And
and and Steve on your your podcast read all of
Matt Wolf's stats outside of outside of driving, and they're
(19:15):
they're awful. It's the same thing with Camera Champ. Champ.
Camera Champ is just not good around greens and so
and I hate giving this to the to the anti
bifurcation people, but a major championship still weed out that player.
They can't bring that style of golf to a major venue,
(19:36):
I believe, right, I mean, don't you think that's still
the one thing we've kind of seen is bomb and
gauge doesn't work on well, I mean daily daily one
the p g A you know, way back when doing that,
I mean kind it was a good putter, yeah, not
a great short game, yeah yeah, But I still think
I I kind of think it it uh well, well,
(19:56):
and if it works sometimes work at AUGUSTA. I mean,
only guys then have a chance. There you go. If
you're not long, you don't have a chance. I mean
unless that you just catch you here when the weather
is is such, the wind is such, and then you know, uh,
Zack Johnson, you know sneaks in there and Mike Weir.
But I mean it's been a while since that's happened.
(20:16):
But let me ask you this, because you've designed, you
did this shure out wedge with Callaway, you you know
a lot about equipment. One of the things I think
I know where I'm I'm going back and thinking of
all the ways I've tried to help kind of chip
away at you uh. In our discussions on this, and
I know one of them I remember now that really
(20:38):
hit home was when I believe and correct me if
I'm wrong, made the point that that bifurcation would also
allow maybe a little bit of loosening on some some
rules for the average golfer and the manufacturers to make
some things that might be a little more user friendly
to a beginner or or just an average golfer, or
(21:02):
maybe a little more affordable or something else that that
they can't do now because they're trying to make equipment
for their best players, because they think that the average
golfer just wants to play with the pros play. Do
you think that is a possibility that that bifurcation could
lead to manufacturers being able to make more user friendly
(21:25):
stoff for most people. That's a good point. I think
that's a good point. I think that would make the
game better. There's no doubt about that. That would be
something that would definitely make the game bet a matter
of fact, that would I mean, even if I was
again this is the best point, even if I was
against rolling the ball back, I would still be for
(21:45):
bifurcation because I want to make I don't. I don't
want the game to be harder. I want the game
to be easier for the average players. So it's a
big hindrance in the game of golf. I don't care
what anybody says. They can say whatever they want. They
can say. It's the lure of the game. They can
come with all this stuff they want, and I wanted.
The tough things about golf is the learning curve is
so steep, and anything to make the learning curve easier
(22:06):
would be great. And you know, to your point that
you just made. You know, if you're gonna play, if
everybody's gonna play the same thing like the pros play,
then you know, how exactly are you going to do that?
You know it's it's it's gonna be tough. But if
they give you, give him some leeway and let him
do that, Yeah, I think that. I think that's a
that's a great point. I mean, I would probably put
that as as uh as number one point. And that's
(22:29):
why you you use that on me when you were
trying to You're trying to maneuver me. See, and I
feel like we've made progress, we haven't quite gotten you
to the finish line. It sounds like from the podcast.
But we're we're getting there. I think, you know key
part remember don't mention my name and hugging stick with
Nicholas and all right, all right. In your time working
(22:50):
with Tiger, Uh, did you ever discuss this the distance topic,
because I feel like he's kind of come around more recently.
Well no, not really. I mean he didn't, didn't you know,
he didn't really talk about it, just you know, but
he was he was already rolled back, right. He was
(23:10):
the last guy to use a new piece of you know,
like every let's face I mean every year, every year,
when a new driver comes out, it's longer than the
year before. Regardless of what anybody says, I mean it is.
I mean, they can say whatever they want, but it's longer.
It's longer because it doesn't spin as much. It's longer
because it launches at a better angle. Uh, it's it's
(23:32):
longer because if you hit off center, it goes farther
than it you still when you hit off center. Uh,
you know it's longer because you know that for years,
Because you know, the face cup getting hotter and hotter
and hot I mean, whatever, whatever it is. I mean,
when every manufacturer. When they come out with a new driver,
it's longer in some way, shape or fashion than what
(23:55):
it was last year. That's just that's you know, even
if it's just on mishits, but it is. And Tiger
would always be the last one to use new equipment.
So so every year he was giving up a distance
on the UH clubs. And then you could say the
same thing for the balls too. I mean every year
when they come out with a new ball, or every
(24:17):
time they come out with a new ball, there's some
kind of improvement. And what is the improvement? You know,
they don't want to say it, but you know what
they kind of do. But then they kind of don't
because they don't want the U s j up up
on him. But the ball is going to be longer too,
I mean it might, it might, you know, not be
longer with the U S. G A test, but they
(24:38):
know it's longer with the way they test it, which
is you know, spin or spin off of this club
versus this club or you know whatever whatever, you know,
tricks which is basically what they do, you know, tricks
to get around the you know, the rules. So it's
always going Tiger always used a ball that was so
much shorter than every other ball, you know, And I
(24:59):
was like, you know, I was like, why are we uh,
you know, using the equipment that you know, Why don't
we get up there with everybody else? Why are we
spotting everybody fifteen yards here? But anyway, that's just the
way he played. He liked to. But now it seems like,
you know, as he's gotten older, he's not He's not
(25:21):
picking the spinning is ball because it spins good around
the greens. He's picking something that he can get out
there to close the gap. Yeah, and and it does.
Although I think he still uses a pretty soft ball
compared to some guys and a little bit spinning here,
but um, he certainly can move the ball pretty well.
We're gonna take one more break and then I want
(25:43):
to ask you a little bit more about this all
vital um, coming um around to this important moment in
the game. I'm here with Hank Andy on the Shack Show.
All right, so, uh, you let me ask you a question.
(26:05):
Let me ask you a question before you get to that.
What explained to me how this is going to happen?
How are they going to get the manufacturers to go
along with this? They're not even a possibility. Well, I
know because the manufacturers, my sense is they just don't
even want to hear it. Uh, they just are opposed
(26:26):
to anything, even if you present that idea of of
opening up some ways like they did with with adjustability
on drivers, which was good by good argument. And so
they threw them a bone that was dick ruggy and
and they threw them a bone, and uh, in return,
they should be able to tighten up a few things.
(26:48):
The general problem is, you know, is it's one company
titlist and and and you probably also know I've never
understood their position because they are one of those quintessential
American actually international brands synonymous with the golf ball. They
are literally synonymous the way Xerox was synonymous with the
(27:10):
copy machine away. Kleenex is so synonymous with tissue that
we call it Kleenex. And people refer to a ball
as a titlist. That's it's their dominant. They're the best. Uh,
they have been the best for the longest time. And
so logic would tell you if we we took fifteen
(27:30):
dimples off the ball for the pros and that was
sold as the the competition ball, well then their brand
strength and their credibility and their quality control. And they're
made in the USA, and all the things that they
do that make them the best will make them that
would make them even stronger. And they they don't agree
(27:53):
with that point. And and and and a special hello
to Wally you Line, who's probably listening at this point
shaking is and saying no. But is that correct that
that they're so supreme they should they'll they'll own it
no matter what. Probably I would think they would own
it more. I mean that's what I think. That's that
is a good point. I mean I would think they Okay,
(28:14):
so so how about this, can they the governing bodies,
can they jam it down their throat or would it
just opened a whole candle lawsuits? Yeah, they could, and
then they probably would get sued. And uh this year,
you know now things are even um shakier with on
the financial side. You know, they've built this huge nest
(28:35):
egg the U s g A for in theory, it
was for a rainy day, for a year like this
where they would lose the U s open. That was
exactly what Eric Leecher, then on the U s g
A Executive Committee told people at the Annual Media was
part of a public um gathering and said point blank,
that's why we're building this this war chest to to
(28:57):
survive a year where we don't have a US Open. Well,
if that happens this year, in theory that or chest
should be there for that. But it seems like, uh,
that won't be enough in their minds, and so this
could change their position. But the RNA, it seems very
confident and assured that this is this is the right
(29:19):
thing to do is And that's an interesting thing itself
because Martin Slimmers was was not on board with this
notion initially. Uh, he, like you, has come around to
understanding the ramifications from the design point of view and
pace of play and just the silliness of playing off
of five courses at the old course during the Open
(29:40):
and all that nonsense. Um, So I think that's it.
They could they could do it. It's just how to
you know, you're very tough on on Mike Davis on
on your show. Um, I don't know who it is
who bridges that gap between kind of each side. I
feel like Martin Slummers is the person who now can
(30:02):
do that. He has a you know, he thinks like
a businessman, and he and he thinks like somebody who
wants to make the game fun. But he's really done
his homework and so I think he can make and
he's got the accent hank. You know. It's just that
it never goes wrong now, it's always good. Yeah, it's
well it helps yeah. Um so I I think it's possible.
(30:28):
I really do. Now what happens now with this pandemic
and the values of the game changing, I think is
an interesting component in this. And what are you hearing?
People are just I'm hearing a lot of I'm just
happy to be able to play golf again. I'm not.
I haven't heard one person go and say, you know,
I was a little rusty and I think I've lost
about ten yards. I don't think I'm going back out
(30:48):
to play. I've all I heard is I was so
good to be back out and I don't know. I mean,
you know, I I'm telling you, I had my back
operate it on the last last year, like this a year,
you know, go and come in November and then I
have my both my knees replaced or my back was
(31:10):
the February. Then I had my knees replaced in November. Okay,
so I've got the double whammy back surgery and double
knee replacement, and I went out to hit balls like
the first time, and I'm like, oh my god, is
that only as far as I can hit the ball.
But I don't know if I can. I mean, this
(31:31):
is like, I don't know if this interests me. I'm
just being honest with you. Yeah, I get that, so,
I mean it was so far back. I'm like, oh my,
but but I mean the problem is is you know,
you gotta if they do this, I mean, do you
think they can design somewhere? Clearly? Absolutely? So we're just
(31:55):
what are you gonna do the top guys? Is that
what you're gonna do? Well, you're gonna knock off something
on all the top players. But I hope it's it
has to be done in a way that that that
Cameron Champ is still five yards longer than the next
guy on average. You know, it has to be where
that super elite distance guy doesn't get negated down to
(32:19):
being the same as Zack Johnson. That would backfire and
that'd be awful. And we don't want that. We want
long driving to be rewarded and a virtue I believe
was was the way Alistair McKinsey put it. And you
want that, So I think there's a way to do
it that that this these optimized launch conditions that these
guys enjoy, and that now a younger generation all has
(32:41):
at a younger age because they start learning on on speed.
It's all about speed, and then they figure out how
to hit it straight. That you can do that knock
that off a little bit and it's in not affect
the average person. Obviously the ball's the ideal way. Uh.
But you know Tiger just played around the golf. He
brought us perciment is out. I don't know if you
(33:01):
saw that article, um where he brought him out in
justin Thomas always on your website and he mentioned, you know,
the gear effect, and I loved that that description of
the smaller head, which has been the other possible solution
that these guys play. And it's that's titless view that
(33:24):
they would love to see the driver head reduced for
the pro because obviously for business reasons, but also to
create this gear effect to make them throttle back a little. Um,
what do you think of that? See that one that one.
I don't think you can trust what anybody says, because
they all tell you what's best for them. I mean,
(33:46):
don't you know, like the cynic would say, Titles is
saying that because they don't have a driver that sells
and their balls do, and so they want to they
want to hurt the competition that's got drivers, but they
want to stay the same. I mean, that's easy argument
that you know, people people would would make. And you know,
and then the other guys are gonna, you know, hey,
(34:07):
keep our clubs like this, but you know, just knocked
the ball back and we'll still of our driver's share,
and you know, and and the guy that we've been
trying to knock off the top of the mountain, he'll
get hurt. I mean, I don't know. It's just there's
so many there's so many factors in it. Okay, so Camra,
let me go back here, Cameron Chep. Now he's gonna
have a five yard advantage or ten yards or whatever,
(34:29):
fiften or whatever. But but is this a never ending thing?
I mean, you know, this isn't like a is this
a one time deal? Or I mean, do we do
this again in ten more years when somebody bigger, stronger,
faster comes along. I mean, what do you think on
that m That is a tricky one. I think that
we have to take it one step at a time
(34:51):
and try. I think if they do it properly and
the ball you don't want the full float effect. But
if you if you get the ball moving and there's
a little bit of that gear effect just on the
ball that Tiger is talking about, not the driverhead, but
just that that slight bit of backing off that that's
(35:12):
going to make a big difference in terms of how
players swing and approach. I mean, you surely have seen
some of the videos where people put on put put
a young player on per Simmon or the early metal
woods and put them on the track man, and and
it's the way they swing, the speed they're at. It
(35:33):
really gets exposed when when the head is smaller um
and so. But if the ball has a similar effect,
but you'll leave the head size the way it is,
but the ball could move a little bit more. If
you hit a knuckler, he hit it a little funky.
I think you're gonna see the same kind of gear effect.
And and and guess what, Hank, you know you still
(35:54):
have to play golf balls. To play golf, you have
to buy them. It's this amazing thing. You don't have
to buy a new driver every year. You have to
make golf balls to play. And that's another thing I've
never understood about their argument that you're always going to
need them. So that's a good point. I don't get
that argument. That doesn't make any sense. I mean, they're
(36:15):
still gonna sell the same amount of god balls, They're
still going to be, you know, dominant. Actually, they'll sell
more gold balls the first couple of years because you know,
when if anything happened, then people would be trying them out.
You know, they'd be trying this brand versus this brand,
versus brand versus this brand. I mean, you know, you would.
You know, right now people are kind of dialed in.
I mean there's a certain you know, aspect of people
(36:38):
that just say, well, I mean they're all the same,
they're all great. You know, you'd be trying them out
where they might sell more. Yeah, with with golf balls,
you mean yeah, yeah, well the other companies more people.
You'll be trying them out, trying different different ones. Yeah, yeah,
they've up their game. Some of the other companies and
that's part of it. But Title is still has that
(36:58):
that trust factor that's that's unique, and I think they'd
retain it um. But we'll we'll, we'll see. And again
I don't know how what happens now with with sort
of the change in values. I sense people are well,
first of all, since I've been putting this stuff out
there and complaining about it, well after Jack Nicholas and
many other people, obviously, uh, that there is a change
(37:23):
that people do sense that it's not good for the sport,
uh in certain ways. I mean I have problems with
it on many levels. Obviously the architecture. I don't like
this idea of kids learning how to swing hard as
hard as possible. Uh. It just seems to me that's
that's nuts. That's going to lead to injuries. It's just
(37:44):
and it's just not as interesting to watch as we saw.
I mean, seminal could be really interesting. It does. It
shouldn't need greens at fourteen, but that's what it has
to protect it, and it just isn't. Distance is not
compelling on television unless it is absolutely you know, the
cameras have to be positioned to get that speed shot.
(38:06):
They you have to see the ball going way by
somebody else. It's just there are a lot of dynamics
to make distance exciting. You know what. One of the
things that's for sure is is what they've done to
protect the courses because of the distance has made it,
you know, much more difficult for the average player. I
thought about that. I mean, you know, pin green speed
(38:28):
number one, but uh, you know, fear how close it's
mulling around the greens and the pin placements on the
edges and age that about that, but green speed number
one for sure. Yeah, it's a killer. It's a killer
for pace to play. You know. One of the things
I've been hearing from from people who went back to
(38:49):
playing after a break here and of course maybe wasn't
maintained to the normal standards. But you know, thankfully all
golf courses continued some form of maintenance it I I've
heard about except maybe a few select cases, which is incredible.
That was a real um concern about what that would
mean because you know, as you know, I'm sure you've
(39:10):
seen a golf course when it doesn't get maintained for
about two weeks. It's it's stunning what happens. But green
speeds are slower, and and I've heard some people that,
you know, it wasn't great, but pace of play got
so much better, and tea time spacing got a little
bit better, and and miraculously, gosh, you know, people are
playing it at the right pace when the when the
(39:31):
spacings there. So there are all these little values that
people become more aware of, and I just wonder how
many are going, Yeah, gosh, I can't wait to get
out there and then try to figure out how to
get ten more yards or or buy something that will
do that. I think people are just so happy to
play golf that they'll they'll recognize it um. Now. The
people running the pro game. The other area that's a
(39:52):
problem is they, as you know, are now hooked on
the athleticism and promoting. You know, they don't refer to
him as golf is anymore. They're athletes. J Monagan's always
you know, these athletes, these athletes, you know, and it's
a marketing angle that they think. They think if they
if everybody hit the ball the same way, I mean
(40:14):
the same distance. Okay, if everybody hit the ball the
same distance, then you would you would still have the
same athletic thing, because then the big thing would be
are you fast enough, strong enough, big enough to get
it out of the rough? I mean that that would
be the distinguishing factor. Besides, you know how straight you
(40:34):
could hit it. If everybody hit it the same distance,
then you know, everybody would end up being, you know,
looking like Chepka because and DJ because you know, the
whole the only way you could distinguish yourself was are
you strong enough to get it out of the rough?
Now you don't, you know, those guys are. That's a
part of the factor, but the other part of the factors.
(40:56):
They're hitting a wedge anyway, so it doesn't really matter
right and they know um and they will And whenever
people say, well just grow the rough and those guys
just laugh, You're gonna make it even better for me
because I'm I'm strong enough to hit it out of
rough and I've got a nine iron when somebody else
has a six iron. Uh, and they just they laugh.
And so that hasn't worked through course set up. Now
(41:17):
this has going. But this has been like this forever.
I mean, you know, I remember back and you know
when I was working with Marco Mira and this is
like you know, early eighties and every and I you know,
I could never you know, he won the Masters, he
won the Open championship, but I could never you know,
picture him how he could ever win a US Open.
I mean, he just he he didn't hit it long enough.
(41:39):
I mean, and he missed whenever he missed a fairway.
Uh he he would. He never missed like uh you know,
phil or Payne, Stewart, he missed like you know, he
just missed by a yard or two. And he was
and he wasn't you know, big enough, strong enough, fast
enough to handle that rough where the guys that either
(41:59):
hit really why I could get lucky over there where
everybody was trampled down, or they could you know, hit
it up there and hit a shorter club out and
there was strong enough to get it out. I mean,
I feel like there's no chance he as I don't know,
you know, that seems like that's what I mean about,
you know, the guys getting bigger and stronger so that
they could handle it. That would become the distinguishing factor. Then,
(42:21):
you know, Mike Davis tried to have graduated rough to
help people like Marc. O'my, I'm just saying you know,
just you're a little tough on you know, you're you're
a little rough on there on the show, he's hey,
where is that guy hiding by the way. Well, I
think they've chosen all the governing bodies to be pretty quiet.
There's not much they can say. They although they did
(42:41):
roll out the news yesterday of canceling all the locals
and sectionals for the US Open way and what about that?
Tell me about that? What do you think about that?
Today said the US Open? How can an open? How
can be that? I'm still trying to wrap my head
around it. But my and I've been reading a few
things and and asking some people, and I I just
don't get it hanked to be. To be honest, I
(43:03):
know there's there's a good reason um that they did it.
I really do. I haven't asked yet, but I struggle
because it's such an integral part of the US Open
and the people who run the sectionals, and I can
I can't understand maybe the locals that the local qualifyings
a lot more events, but the sectional you could do
with the people who are exempted sectionals normally and maybe
(43:26):
maybe add the feel to the field a little bit
based on some some amateur or other rankings. You could
do something anyway. The point is those are run by
state and regional golf associations. The U s g A
just helps out a little bit, but those are local
operations and they're very safe. Everybody spread out tea time wise.
The only time anybody gets together as a group is
(43:47):
to look at the scoreboard. And even then it's not
like people are standing on top of each other, um,
and they're some of them are pacing, and some of
them are on the phone thinking about the making their plans.
So I'm a little surprised that they, especially as U
s G has gotten so proud and they've did a
whole marketing campaign around it about that part of the tournament,
(44:08):
and then just to kind of cut it off seemed
strange to me, because if they're going to play in September,
there's still a little bit of time to to sort
through that. So I think they have some logistical reasons,
but I think it's gonna be really bizarre. Don't you
need to call the US Open and yeah, it's an invitation,
and then they're picking the field and the amateur one
(44:30):
is is being selected, and that's always been rough with
them in the Walker Cup. You menagtioned it on a
larger scale. I think they're going to open themselves up
to some criticism, it seems. But but I ye know,
I've been asking and I did a poem. I say,
people are just they just want to US Open. They
don't care how It's not like it's not like any
qualifiers gonna win the tournament in anyways. It's not gonna happen. No,
(44:53):
but they're Gosh, there's such a great part of it.
It adds such a different I mean, you just go
to US Open, and you know, it's just so great
when there's some guy they're hitting balls next to Tiger
Woods that that has made it there and as a
good player, and and then five years later that player
turns out to be a you know, Axander Schaffle or something.
(45:14):
I love that about the us O. But I think
everybody does. Yeah, well they won't. They won't have the
caddy player. Bet on who's going to be the high score?
What's the high score going to be eight or nine? No,
probably be eliminated. Everybody will be happy to be there. Well,
I'm gonna let you go. I appreciate your time. I'm really,
I'm now I'm gonna keep coaching you though, on on
(45:36):
making this case now that you're on our team and
I'm not gonna let you off the bifurcation team, like
like Brandon Shambley kind of leaves a comes and goes,
We're going to keep you. I'm on your team. Your
your argument was is a great one about giving him
a chance to do other stuff with the equipment or
the I like, yeah, I knew that would pull out
(45:57):
your heart strings get you. Yeah that I remember the
magna you were you were intrigued by the magnet ball.
And get some of those magnets and test them out,
or have have somebody who's got the crazy clubhead speed,
Uh test them out and see the numbers. You'll see it.
It knocks just a little bit off them, and uh
doesn't hurt the Would that a little bit make you happy? Though?
I mean really, I mean would that be from just
(46:19):
strictly how much do you need to come off? How
much did that he hit that ball? Three? It would
really be nice. How much student needs to come off
of me? Yeah? I wouldn't look at him, but I
look at the average numbers and and and a brown
eight percent would be really amazing from a design point
of view. Just from yeah. I mean hen at l
(46:41):
a country club where they're gonna have the US Open,
where I worked with Gil Hants on the on the
restoration of the course. We picked up two fairway bunkers
and moved them down in two thousand and nine and
ten when we did it, one of those bunkers we
picked up and moved. We're picking it up and moving
it again on the second hall Oal just in that time.
(47:02):
I mean, it's just it's just dumb. It's just it's stupid,
and uh, it doesn't make the game better, more interesting,
and it doesn't really sell more equipment either, I don't think.
But we'll try. We're gonna, we're gonna see what happens.
I appreciate you. You're on team bifurcation. Remember Nicholas and Woods,
(47:22):
not Shackelford. And remember that player. Everybody, they're all there.
I don't know about dropping Gary player. That could be
hack of ill dicey for you. They're they're all, they're all,
they're all. He's good. Yeah, don't get me wrong. He's
better again, Gary Player, Lee Trevino, Tom Watson better again
than Hugging the Shape. Hey, thanks, thanks so much for
the time. And uh, and of course everybody should tune
(47:44):
into the Hank Candy Show and subscribe wherever they get
their podcasts. Thanks Hank. Alright, check, all right, well, thank
you again to Hank Cany. Of course, it's the Hank
Cany Podcast. You can get it wherever pods are streamed.
It's easy to find. And uh it is a part
of the I Heart family, and I am proud to
be part of the I Heart family. And of course
(48:05):
the Shack Show is a production of our Heart Radio.
I don't know if I'm gonna put any show notes
up for this one other than some links to uh
to Hank show. I don't think I need to. Maybe
I'll dig up something on Max bar on the floater ball,
now that I think about it, that's kind of fun.
And uh that there's an old newspaper article about how
he was doing that, and I got to kick out
(48:25):
of Hank mentioning the floater that he uses. I'm actually
gonna find out too what brand ball that is. So
any other range purveyors out there who would like to
provide us who have a limited flight situation, I would
like to provide us something that is not like hitting
a rock that would be wonderful, so I'll find out
what brand that is as well. Anyhow, thank you again
(48:47):
as always for listening to The Shack Show. It is
a production of I Heart Radio and as always you
know that for more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. Thanks again and I will
talk to you soon here on The Shack Show. H
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