June 3, 2020 • 41 mins
In episode 14 of the Shack Show, Golf Channel host Damon Hack joins Geoff Shackelford to discuss his latest written piece entitled: "Can I be both thankful and horrified? Can I?". Geoff and Damon also talk about the platform athletes have to speak on these issues and what golf can do to be more welcoming.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Shack Show is a production of I Heart Radio. Today.
On The Shack Show, I'm joined by my longtime Golf
Channel and golf media colleague, Damon Hack, who I first
met while he was covering golf of the New York
(00:21):
Times and Sports Illustrated after he had had stints at
Newsday and the Sacramento b covering the n A, NBA
and NFL. Of course, a big us L, a brewing
l a native, so we always have a lot of
fun discussing our beloved Dodgers and our beloved Lakers, though
we did not do that today on The Shack Show
because since two thousand and twelve, Damon has been at
(00:44):
Golf Channel in a variety of roles, most notably, though
I'm sure you've seen him as co host on Morning
Dry Monday to Friday, and then every once in a
while he still pulls out the old laptop and pens
a piece, as he did this week with a very
powerful column of about his current state of mind, the
current state of affairs, and oh just everything that's going
(01:06):
on in in America right now called can I be
both Thankful? And horrified? Can I? And it's a short,
lovely piece he put a little bit up on social media,
and uh, he is a sharp guy. I love his
story in golf, and and we get into that a
little bit and how he got in the game, because
I think hopefully you some of you listen to the
(01:28):
first few shows. No, I'm always interested in that because
we always seem to find out how people got into
the game in kind of an organic way, and I
think it's important as part of this topic and if
golf wants to be a place that's inviting, it's a
hard sport and hearing people like Damon's story is pretty cool.
So here is my conversation with Damon Hack of the
Golf Channel. Damon, I don't know the answer to this,
(01:51):
and we've we've spent some time together and I'm a
little embarrassed to say, but how did you get started
in golf? Who? Who started you playing the game of golf?
I was an intern at the old KAMPC sports radio
station Los Angeles, which you know very well. I haven't
heard that that call in a while. Wow, you'll Joe
(02:14):
McDonald dud Rccorean days, and the station director named Scott
O'Neal was an avid golfer and invited me one day
to play Spanish Hills, which I imagine is a place
where familiar with um kind of the ox Nard area,
and on the way to Santa Barbara and um, gosh,
(02:36):
I think I'm shot a hurting fifty or something. I
had no idea what I was doing out there, but
I played. He ended up giving me a set of
peerless irons, Arnold Palmer um because he was the station
director and had that kind of pull, and I was soon,
you know, kind of hacking pardon the pun, my way
(02:58):
through golf courses throughout college and then in Grat's going
to meet up to the Bay areas. Had some buddies
that played, and we play all over Childen Park outside
of UC Berkeley, in Oakland, we play, we go up
to Fairfield. It just it got into my blood real quick,
and I fell in love with the game. It happened
(03:19):
to be at the same time Tiger Woods was doing
his thing as well, met to to late nineties, So
it ala was all this time of this big collaboration
of events that that conspired to bring me into this
crazy game. And you've enjoyed the journey since I take it. Oh,
it's it's it's an incredible game to be a part
of as a player, as a broadcaster, as a golf writer,
(03:43):
being fortunate too to write for Sports Illustrated, the New
York Times Newsday and travel the world, and especially during
this era when Tiger has you know, brought such attention
to the game. It's it's a joy. The history of
the game. I love was history major U. C. L a. S.
And there's a lot out of of things I'm able
to read and appreciate and love just the the research
(04:05):
in in stories that are told and passed on. It's
just a it's a wonderful vocation to be a part of.
And you've written in length for Sports Illustrated for the
New York Times, uh less frequently since you started at
the Golf Channel in two thousand and twelve. But you
wrote a piece and that's why I wanted to talk
to you this week. Um. Compared to other things you've
(04:28):
you've written, where does this rank in terms of the reaction,
in terms of the volume, and then just also what
kind of things you have picked up from from comments
and feedback and other sources of of response to what
you wrote. I'll tell you, man, the response has been
(04:50):
overwhelmingly positive. First of It's been overwhelming, overwhelming period, Like
I didn't expect to get text messages and calls from people,
a lot of thank you, thank you for sharing, a
lot of people saying this has been an abstract issue
for me, and and that thank you for making was
once an abstract issue for me and putting a name
(05:12):
and a face to it. Um. I've been lucky to
have dear friends in this business, but I've never shared
some of the stories I've shared, and in a lot
of what's happened in our country over the last week
with the death of George Floyd, I felt like I
couldn't continue to go on television and be the optimist
and the smiling guy that I am, who who loves
(05:34):
his job and it's thankful for his job, but not
be able to express the pain I was feeling, and
that I've been pulled over a couple of times, having
broken no law, having not been speeding. I've been frisk before,
or for standing in front of my own home. Stories
we've heard before. I'm sure stories that others have heard before,
but I think people were surprised to hear those stories
(05:55):
coming from me because I am so happy and so
hopeful but I had been hurting over the last week,
and I wanted to share that hurt. And I didn't
expect people to say thank you for for opening up
in lighting and lighting Some people, what about in golf?
What what spent your experience in terms of uh, well,
(06:15):
obviously reading the piece, you clearly have had times in
the game where you haven't been comfortable with what you're
seeing or what's your experience? At least that was my
sense reading it a couple of times. Is that fair? Yeah,
that's fair. I think I've been around long enough now
where I felt like I kind of earned my spot,
as it were, um, earned my place on the team
(06:38):
as it were. I've traveled and covered the Majors and
Writer Cups and President's Cups. I've written cover stories for
The New York Times and s I been on Golf
Channel now for some eight years, so in some ways
they feel like I've earned my bones. But early on,
there were some some looks and and you know, double
checking that credential. Things like that would happen from time
(07:01):
to time, and I kind of I just put it
in the basket of of life as an African American
in the in the United States, and UM, I didn't complain. Um.
This piece wasn't meant to be a complaint. It was
meant to share and really to unburden myself and and
and kind of question why can't I feel so lucky,
so happy and so fortunate but also so sad this week?
(07:24):
And my wife encouraged me and you you nailed Jack.
I don't write as much as I used to. UM.
I presented it to Golf Channel dot com. Uh to
some of the employees. There's one of my boss is
there and they were like, you know, let's let's let's
let's see what you come up with. Let's see what
you have. They they they've always encouraged me whatever the
topic is. That they kind of respect my my my
(07:46):
resume as it were. They like when I write, they
wish I'd write more. They didn't know what was coming,
but when I I wrote it, I sent it in.
They quickly posted it and then just the the instagrams
and tweets and text messages, including from people in the industry,
from the PGA tour, from the U s g A.
I get the sense that people want to to help
(08:08):
and be part of a solution, and they know that
as great as our country is that it can be better,
it can be kinder, uh, and it can hopefully heal
from what's been a really really challenging week. Well, let's
this is a golf podcast, so I obviously want to
focus on some of the elements in your you're thinking
(08:28):
and things that were sparked in the piece by by
what I'm kind of seeing in the game, and also
Maurice Allen's piece. I don't know if you've seen that yet. Yeah,
that one, that one, that one really shook me up.
I feel like yours has a sequel coming or other.
I feel like there's more there is that, right I think? So, Um,
(08:51):
I feel like, honestly that my role at the Channel,
at my role on the show has angel a little
bit since um this article came out. And I say
that in a positive way that I almost feel like
I'm free to be me even more, and and not
that I wasn't me before, but I just feel like
(09:13):
I can exhale a little bit and I just thought
I couldn't do due diligence to myself to the viewers. Um,
just smiling and talking about Tiger and Phil and and
and with a heavy heart. So I hope to push
the envelope. I hope to challenge the golf industry are
viewers and others that want to ask questions and and
(09:37):
and maybe be a little uncomfortable. And that's been what's
it's been so rewarding, even in the short term. Listening
to Page McKenzie say thanks for you know, turning what's
been abstracted something real. For me, Hearing Anna Whiteley saying
this makes me have to kind of look at my own,
you know, privileged life and how it's different, and that
(09:58):
you face some things meaning me that never would even contemplate,
that would even cross her mind. So my hope it's
it really encourages conversation and and and maybe makes all
of us look at ourselves a little bit and look
inward and maybe the pain that I feel, um having
watched that video and see what's happened in the last week,
(10:21):
I don't want to be alone in going that way,
and I want I want others to uh to feel
hurt and feel like things have to improve and be
different in this country. Before we go a little bit
deeper on a couple of those things you mentioned, I
watched this I believe it was today's show. Yes, today's show,
you interviewed and we're recording this on On Wednesday, the
(10:43):
third of June, you interviewed Harold Varner, who wrote a
lovely collection of thoughts and tweeted them. Um. But one
of the things that interested me one in hearing the
reaction you've gotten. Um, it's different than the reaction UH
athletes are sometimes getting. And I I posted a piece
(11:05):
and that highlighted some of the ridiculous comments that some
of the golfers are getting for chiming in on on
Blackout Tuesday. But I I'm I'm curious your views on
the role of athletes right now, because it's it's something
that comes up, particularly with the golfers, it seems from
the comments I've read now. I haven't gone deep on
(11:26):
a lot of comments sections because I don't want to
lose my mind, but the golfers get an interesting kind
of pushback I I feel, and I'm curious what you think,
not just Harold, but other golfers, what what their role
is in in this conversation, or do you think they
should they should stick to playing golf. Yeah, I've been surprised.
(11:49):
I was on social media seeing the comments that the
likes of Brooks, kept Good, Ricky and Justin Thomas. They
posted the blackout instagrams on black Out Tuesday and they
they got some some positive responses also. But also stay
in your lanes and then all that kind of thing
you'll shut up and dribble that was pointed to Lebron
(12:11):
James Um a while back. I think the time for
staying in in in your lane is past. If if
we're having these conversations and Emmett till from from my
grandfather's era and that continues in Amma do Diallo and
Trayvon Martin and Brianna Taylor and George Floyd. You know,
(12:32):
you and I know what activism for our parents generation
was when you had the likes of Kareem and Arthur
Ash and Muhammad Ali and Jim Brown and so many
others um especially at campuses in U. C. L A.
And Berkeley and all up and down the West coast
throughout the country. I think the time for staying in
(12:54):
your in your lane means that I want to shut
my ears out and not listening to other perspectives. I
think athletes have a platform. I think hal Varner the
Three felt that and feels that um, I spoke to
Cheyenne Woods and she's got that interview is gonna run
this week. She she spoke about the role of athletes
as well, and we saw Tiger Woods, who many would
(13:15):
be surprised to hear him speak on the issue, released
his statement Michael Jordan as well. So, I I feel
like this is kind of a turning point moment, a
pivot point moment in our in our American history, and
our sports culture and our golf culture. Perhaps I think
the fact that Justin Thomas's and Brooks kept us have
(13:36):
become friends with, you know, the Goddess after the coupos
and Steph Currys and Tony Romo's, it brings them around
athletes from other sports. I think that's kind of given
them the freedom to express themselves as well. So I
know some people don't want the discomfort and the uncomfortable conversation,
and they don't well, they want to tune into sports
(13:57):
just to watch sports. But I think the time for
sticking to sport has passed. If we're gonna keep having
the same conversations every few years, and going back to
this point, it seems a little bit hypocritical too, since
we've elevated athletes, probably even since you and I've begun
covering sports to another level in terms of how they're paid,
(14:18):
who who, who they are in society, how we treat them,
how what we expect from them, what we look to
them to do to inspire. They've almost replaced people in
a lot of other sectors and politics and the um
creative enterprises of film, TV, whatever you want to look at.
They I feel like they have in so many ways,
(14:40):
and yet we then expect them to not speak up.
It seems a little strange, isn't it. It does. And
I want to add that I don't think every athlete
necessarily that they wanted. I wouldn't want for any of
them to speak. They may not feel comfortable or educating
or or or want their thoughts in the street. That
that's fine too, But this is America. If someone wants
(15:03):
to speak, and they have the platform to speak, and uh,
whether I agree with their opinion or not, by the way,
I think they have every right to express themselves and
then let let the chips fall where they may, Let
let everyone have their opinion. Let athletes who are in
many cases on the front lines of these discussions. And
you think about Jackie Robinson and how much sports has
(15:25):
been often leading the way in these issues. I've talked
about offensive linemen that come from you know, five different
parts of the country will be making up the five
block and supertect the quarterback. In a running back, you
have someone from the South and someone from the city,
and someone from urban American rule America, and and those
guys they're they're they're they're forced to bond and be
(15:47):
together and share our brotherhood. And I think sports can often,
uh lead the way in in a lot of our
our daily lives and conversations about race and society. Let's
take a quick break here on the Shack Show and
then we'll continue this conversation with Damon Hack of the
Golf Channel. Damon, one of the things uh that I
(16:17):
that I gleaned and in reading your column and then
and watching you on the show discuss it, uh was
the idea of a conversation and um trying to get
a little bit smarter, especially in the world of golf,
where I think your peace and and Harold Verner's and
Maurice Allen's really we're the ones that uh to me
(16:40):
or the thought provoking ones and I'm curious if you
were the commissioner of golf for a day and you've
experienced all these different initiatives and things that we do,
and somebody who got into the game, not the the
as a child, but a little bit later in life,
not not late life, but but later. And the way
(17:02):
you you told the story is just how so many
people get in the game. But you've you've observed in
all these different ways. If you if you had the
power to to try and improve things in the sport,
is there anything in particular that stands out to you
is kind of underwhelming at the moment and something you
would love to to repair if you were named the
(17:23):
fictional Golf care Commissioner of the Day, I'll tell you
what I feel like golf, especially the PG Tour, which
has done remarkable things for charity and every city that
it goes to, UH, the U. S. G A, the PM.
I want to see some of the power brokers in
(17:44):
the game use their power and if they're seeing that
their eyes have been opened in the last week, and
many of them have told me they have and they're uncomfortable.
They've got to figure out why, and they've got to
be willing to maybe take some chance is and use
their relationships in business and government to to really kind
(18:06):
of press for systemic and societal and meaningful, lasting change.
And I was watching one of the shows on CNBC
and it was a CEO African American man who who
said that in his school of of a thousand kids, uh,
one day, a gentleman took him in, like four others
(18:27):
out of the inner city, took him to to lunch,
told them about college and and society and how to
to to to kind of break out of the life
and and the potential uh stagnant future that they had
and and and sowed them a world that was possibly
available to him. And he said he would not have
(18:48):
he would not have ended up the seal of a
company if someone hadn't taken real, you know, lasting and
important care and and interest in his back story in
his life. And I just think that we really need
some some power brokers in this game so to to
push for really looking at shaking the roots of of
(19:10):
this game in society and maybe getting out of the
comfort zone. And I say that knowing that there's been
wonderful and meaningful strides, uh, you know with first ke programs,
and drive Chip and PUD and and the t Low
Golf program in Orlando, which focuses on minority and lower
income kids. But I just think that you know, with
(19:34):
the money that's being thrown around and in the pockets
that a lot of these organizations have, if you're uncomfortable
with what you've seen, and you you have the phone
of presidents and governors and senators, and you have those relationships.
By Gali, I think we've got to use them otherwise
(19:54):
we're just gonna be having the same conversations down the road.
I'm you know, I'm I'm those sociolog just I for
sure Shack don't have the answers or all the answers
or any answers. But I do feel that this feels
like a moment. And from the the quiet messages I've gotten,
the surprising messages I've gotten from from people in various organizations,
(20:16):
I feel like people want to do something structural and meaningful.
And I hope, and speaking to Hill one of the
third that when he says, hey, we're gonna be staying
in the same hotels, I'm gonna be forced to have
these conversations with my peers, and then we forced all
those conversations with me, that the power brokers lead the way,
the athletes can lead the way, and that that it's
(20:36):
not just you know, an African American, you know, broadcaster
being pained and wanting to do something meaningful. That it's
that it's others as well. That's collective mindset that helps
all of us kind of break out of this this
societal rut that we seem to be in, um over
these last years and decades and and longer. You mean,
(20:59):
hiring a black man to do your voiceovers for your
p s A S isn't enough. Um. I mean, you
know that you're so right on about all that, and
I just struggle as I'm listening to you, picturing how
how we break through that, because so much of what
golf seems to do is oh well, well well, I
mean they just the amount of money, first of all,
(21:21):
just put into public service announcements and feel good things
that do not a bloody thing to introduce somebody to
a sport that's so hard to get into to begin with,
it's so intimidating. Um. And then and then just to
think that those kinds of ads, especially in a world
where where where people get their their media in so
many different places. Now they're even more meaningless than before.
(21:43):
But they're they're generally pretty um empty, and they don't
do a whole lot and and I uh, it just
seems like to me that that so much about golf
that we know is that the sport, the values of
the sport, the playing of the sport, the going to
a worse and spending money and dealing with the first
t shot and all that. It teaches you everything you
(22:04):
need to know as you play. Um. But but these
ad campaigns, uh, they don't they don't get they don't
help you get to the golf course, and and and
kind of work out the kinks, uh and and and
just carried back to how you got into the game.
So you you got the itch? Did you just you
got those clubs? Did you just kind of just start
going to the range and and working it out? Did
(22:27):
you get lessons? Did you get any I mean, obviously
you weren't. You know, you didn't go to a first tea.
That's my point. It happened organically, it really did. It
happened organically kind of meeting like minded people who wanted
to play, who love to play. I fell in love
with golf journalism. Being at UC Berkeley, I took a
sportswriting class and started to read the likes of Frank
(22:50):
to Ford and Rick Reiley and Herbert Warren Wyn and
some of the giants Dave Anderson, um of of our,
of our industry, and it really I was moved by
by just how beautiful golf writing could be. And so
here's here's Tiger, who you know, a minority who's starting
to win US Amateurs and junior amateurs. And I graduated
(23:13):
from cal that my master's in ninety six, so I
watched him beat Scott in Oregon for his third straight
US Amateur and um he turned pro that year. He
won a couple of times before the calendar changed in
tone seven, and we all know what happened at the
Master's in ninety seven. So it was just kind of
this combination of of things that had happened that really
(23:33):
got to be interested in the game as a player,
as a journalist who who wanted to one day be
a sportswriter. And I have been fortunate to cover the NBA,
the NFL, and golf as well as beats and and
I want to tell you one thing, I am encouraged
by and in my reporting over the last couple of
days and and getting ahold of a memo that that
(23:54):
Jay Monahan, the commissioner, I sent to his staff and
to the players that you know and kind of asking,
you know, what are the answers? How do we how
do we kind of grow as a game and as
a as a sport and society. And and I love
that he said, look, I don't have I don't have
all the answers. My job right now is to listen.
And he told his staff that he spoke to some
(24:15):
leaders in the African American community and that they accepted
that he didn't have the answers, and that that he
wanted to listen and learn. And you know, I hope
that that's a powerful statement that can lead to some action.
We know that the PC Tour can do and has
done uh lots of good and and and the game
(24:36):
that I love that I came to organically, and now
that it is a part of my life, my family's life.
I've love nothing more than playing golf with my sons
um and spending uh an afternother course is that that
this game, which has had an exclusion harry past, can
can possibly be at the tip of the spear and
(24:56):
in helping all of us, you know, get through this
really fraught moment our history. Yeah, I just uh, I
guess what I struggle with always with these with the
organizations in golf is that I know they're they're well meaning,
but then you ask you and the reason I want
to kind of go back to your story is that
it we we know that the generally the people who
become lifelong golfers are are those who they almost stumble
(25:21):
into it, or they tag along with some people and
watch them play, or they they get asked to go
to a clinic and they watch and then they go
hit a bucket of balls, and it just seems like
the sport is so and And one of the issues
I struggled with the first T when it was so
values driven, it it felt a little like, well, here's
how we do it in in the white, wealthy world.
(25:44):
These are the values of the game, and here, you know,
here's the list and memorize them. It just felt forced.
And again, the sports just so tough, uh to to
break through. And I tell you, I'm with you on that,
and I'll tell you this had had Scott and you're
not handed me that to the golf clubs. Uh, and
(26:06):
tiger Wood has not been so uh dynamic. I mean,
I grew up in a house where if if golf
was on, we collectively turned it off. And I'm playing
as a kid. I mean, my dad told me that
he hit a couple of chip shots once in a
buddy's backyard because there was a club land on the
ground and that's it. That was his only time ever
(26:27):
ever swinging a golf club. So, um, golf was golf
if golf was on, and we were waiting for basketball
to come on. What I'm saying on a weekend. That's
kind of how it was in in my home. So imagine.
And that's a home that you know, that had college
educated parents and uh living in California where there's a
lot of golfers. You know. So if that's my experience
(26:49):
as a kid growing up, what what's gonna be the
experience of of a kid in the inner city. Golf
might as well be something played on the move, uh,
you know, in terms of the accessive bill, the and
the relatability uh to a young person from the inner city.
All right, we're gonna take one more break here we're
talking to Damon hack on the Shack Show. Damon. One
(27:16):
of the things that UH in in this China, this
idea of the atmosphere in golf and in the intimidation factor,
and now that we're able to have this conversation too
about about race, that we shouldn't even be having to
have me I was laughing at our our parents were
(27:37):
u c l A In Berkeley in nine when a
lot of things are going on, some different issues. But
it's just mind boggling that we're still kind of trying
to work through these things as a country. But I
UH have increasingly the longer I'm in the game, even
though I was very lucky as a as a child.
My dad joined Riviera when I was sixteen, so I
got to to play this amazing golf course and it's
(27:58):
shaped my interest. But as I get older and the
more I'm around the game, and and the point that
Marie Salen hit on that that really hit me and
his peace is this this clubby Vibe and this entitlement vibe,
And I am curious what your experience has been with
(28:19):
that and what you see as that being where that
is on the list of issues that really turned people
off to the sport and and set a poor uh
really a poor tone, I think because it it we know,
we kind of know what that vibe usually is trying
to say, is we're in the club and you're not.
(28:42):
It can be intimidating. The shock. I gotta be lying
if I that I never felt intimidated walking onto golf
courses in those early days especially and even in the
early days, you know, carrying a all season long pass
for the p G H were as a credential reporter.
Um the sound of metal spikes walking behind me when
(29:05):
I was making an eleven far before and and hearing
somebody saying, like, you know, hurry and hurry it up.
I was in Palm Springs, you know, no more than
a year after I picked up a club for the
first time, and you want to talk about a fish
out of water, you know, along a bunch of older
(29:26):
players who had played the game forever and who didn't
necessarily like love having me out there. It was an
intimidating thing. And I've grown past that. I've I've I've
worked hard and obviously been been happy and successful and
thankful and grateful. But that doesn't mean that others who
(29:46):
we try to follow, you know, us into this game,
cannot feel that it is intimidating, and it can be
awfully clubby. And I mean it's inherently clubby, country club.
I mean it's it's it's it's inherently designed to keep
out the great unwashed, you know, and that's a when
that's kind of in the d n A of your game.
(30:09):
You've got a lot of work to do. And I
feel like we're in a place where golf has recognized that,
not that you know it is um you know, the
Rainbow Coalition at this point, but I do think they've
made some some some some good strides and some important strides.
And it may be slower than other sports, and it
(30:30):
is slower than other sports, but I agree, I think
maybe gosh, the Steph Curry health is Tony Romo health
is Charles Buckley, you know, doing a broadcast help um,
I hope, but man um, I think the sport has
been helped by Tiger clearly, and helped by by other athletes, UH,
(30:52):
minority athletes in particular taking interest in the game and
and kind of lowering the temperature on on that that
that clubby feel that we all have always there. Uh,
and we just want to minimize it as much as
we can. Yeah. I struggle with a lot of things
in terms of golf right now and sort of the
overcompensation syndrome that we have where we have to make
(31:17):
the golfers mighty and the most amazing athletes who walked
the face of the planet Earth. And it always mystifies
me because some of the grass athletes in the history
of the world I have not only loved golf, but
they've they've played it passionately and they look awful doing
I mean, I saw Jordan's swing recently on one of
(31:40):
the last dance clips and I forgot how how weird
had it gotten. And of course Barkley and a and uh,
but even some of the grass athletes of all time,
you go, well, that's a that's a that's a good move,
but you could tell it's not a tour player move.
And and yet the sports always trying to to to
to tell us that they're they're different now and and
(32:00):
instead of being comfortable in its own skin that way
that that it's a sport, it's weird. It's hard trust us.
Look at these great athletes who take up the game
and and and they don't even quite look right. So
that should tell you how special these these pro golfers are.
And it's it's always been kind of a strange thing
to me that the sport kind of seizes on the
(32:23):
wrong things. Anyway, I want to think that's interesting. I
want to I want to jump in on that, because
I do think there's a there's a tendency to kind
of want to make brooks Kepta Brian Urlack. Yeah, you know,
it could be in the NFL. DJ could be you know,
starting for the l A Lakers tomorrow if you wanted to.
And you're right, I mean, the art and scienceificitting a
(32:44):
golf ball is hard enough as it is. It doesn't
need exaggeration um to make it a wonderful challenge and
a great way to spend a few hours trying to
make a couple of birdies. But you're right, Yeah, you know,
Kept is a fantastic golfer, a great professional golfer, and
(33:05):
so is Rory, and so is dj. Uh. They don't
need to have a foot race with the sat Bolts
to have credibility. Yeah, for us to respect them more.
It's it's just a strange thing. But by the way,
did you see any of the photos of Tiger and
Phil next to Brady and Manning? Yes, And did you notice,
and now you've been around both of tigers in great shape,
(33:29):
but they looked tiny compared to those two. They're just
such large people, football players, even quarterbacks. The Tiger and
Phil just looked they just looked kind of slight. And
they're not in person, They're they're not slight. Uh. Happy
that it wasn't Jadeveon Clowney and j J. The Tiger
(33:50):
and Field exactly thought it was the David and Golah show,
no doubt about it. We we we know you know
that those guys having been an NFL locker room, Yeah,
you've seen they're from a from a different planet. Yeah.
So the last thing I want to talk a little
bit about a Tiger because of course, he was criticized
for taking his time to issue a statement, which I
(34:13):
you know, I'm I struggle with that kind of I
don't get that, um and I but I wondered just
and everybody, of course just says, well, he's this way
because of business reasons and learning from Jordan's and Republicans
buy shoes and all that stuff. And I kind of
think he has something else going where he he he
(34:34):
feels like he's put what his foundation does out there
and it has a very uh singular mission revolving around education,
and it's an incredible thing that he has created. Um
do you do you feel like that is part of
why he is uh maybe a little bit uh slow
(34:56):
to to react to some of these things and chime
in because he feels like his for lack of a
better phrase, body of work uh speaks for itself. I
think that's part of it. I think that his experience
as a minority is different from mine, is different from
so many others, and I think that there is probably
(35:16):
a knee jerk reaction in some way to think that
Michael Jordan's should think the way that Tiger Woods does,
as you think the way that Charles Barkley does, you
think the way that Deshaun Watson does. And Titan has
been very you know outspoken in his lack of being
outspoken that he is, you know, capitalizing as he put it,
that he's part you know, tie, and that would be
(35:38):
denying his mom if he just said I'm just black,
I'm just African American, that he has other ethnicities as well.
A couple that with the fact that he's extremely private,
uh name he's got privacy and and and with the
fact that he is multicultural in in his mind it
doesn't want to wait those issues and the Republicans buy
shoes upbringing in the Nike Kingdom as it were for
(36:03):
him as well. So I do he gets a number
of factors. And I do think that one of the
underreported and underappreciated stories is the work that his foundation
has done. They having met some of those young people,
remember being in Bethesda, Maryland one year and sitting with
Tiger and beating some of the folks who got Earlwood's scholarships.
Impressive young people. He's been big on STEM education. Uh.
(36:27):
It's a huge part of his charitable work, in a
huge part of his portfolio. So I do think that
that is an aspect as well as a Tiger's letting
that work speak for itself. It's it's his view of
himself also as multicultural, not just African American. It's the
fact that he's private, uh. And it's the fact that,
uh he's an athlete in a modern era and one
(36:49):
who has chosen to be uh very reticent to step
into social issues as a rule. Do you miss writing?
I do. I do miss writing. Um, I've love hearing
from people when I do write and saying, man, I
wish you'd write more, because every now that I feel
(37:10):
like you know, I'm gonna forget how to do it,
and I get moved to do it. Sometimes a story
will happen. It could be just as simple as you know,
Tiger and his back surgeries, or or a great duel
on a Sunday with Rory Brooks. And I do enjoy
the process of of putting pen to paper when I
(37:31):
get the opportunity and when I'm inspired to do so,
and when I do it, I usually feel good afterwards.
And the morning drive five day a week, waking up
at four in the morning, it can beat you down
a little bit and your brain doesn't work is as
swiftly and smoothly as you like it to you when
you've got all that time in the world too to
really kind of put your thoughts together. But man, I
(37:53):
love to power through it and write stories because, um,
whether it's a heavy subject or some whimsical I usually
feel good after doing so. And this was a case
of doubt as well, Yeah, you do feel good after
doing a show, but you you don't really hear much
unless you screw up usually, right, isn't that kind of
the way television is? I mean, I I don't do
(38:14):
it as often as you do, but it just seems
like that's about the only time you ever really hear
from people. Yeah, and as you know, everybody's got a
phone these days. And then let you know when you
said that, uh you know, phil one six majors instead
of five. Oh yeah, well, well I look, I do sense,
I do believe there's a sequel to this piece. I
(38:37):
hope you keep on the topic. It was a great,
uh conversation starter. And I'm glad to hear that you
have maybe a little dialogue going with some of those
people in golf, and I hope you're able to convince
them maybe to put a little less money into those
glossy glossy p s a s and maybe a little
more money into the local MUNI that that that's uh,
(38:58):
that needs a little bit of love and to be
a play so that a kid goes to and goes, wow,
this is this is kind of neat so or whatever
it is that that things like youth on course and
oh and you mentioned one in Orlando. What was that?
What do they do? What's what's the concept outreach and
bringing minority kids to the game. Uh, they accept you know,
(39:22):
kind of hand me down clubs. They've been working on
trying to to find green spaces that they can turn
into practice facilities for for young folks, especially in areas
that are underserved. So one of the great programs here
in Central Florida. And that's one one of the things
that Marie Salent hit on was was also getting the
(39:42):
word out a little bit more on these kinds of things,
things like youth on course that are that are doing
stuff above and beyond the first tea or complimenting it
or or other ways of trying to get people in
the game. So thank you so much, Damon. I look
forward to seeing you write more often, and I hope
you stay on this topic because you you did a
beautiful job. That's greatly appreciated. Shack. I always going to
(40:05):
spend some time with your pal. Well, thank you again
to Damon. I neglected to get into it because really
it's just not right at the moment. But if you
love wine, Damon is an incredible writer in many ways,
but he's now becoming an incredible wine connoisseur and he's
got a little project brewing Goats and Grapes is his
(40:27):
Instagram account if you want to follow that. And when
he goes a little bit deeper and and produces the content,
as the kids like to say, on that end, I
will certainly highlighted and we'll have him back to discuss that.
I've always wanted to have some conversations with a with
a wine connoisseur about golf courses and the equivalence in
the wine world. That just think it's kind of a
(40:48):
fun comparison to make and something a little bit lighter
than what we're dealing with at the moment. But again,
thank you so much to Damon for for sitting down
writing and also being willing to talk about his work.
The Shock Show is produced by Tim Protkin is a
production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from My
Heart Radio, please visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. So until
(41:11):
next time, please be safe and thank you for listening.
M H.
The Shack Show is a production of I Heart Radio. Today.
On The Shack Show, I'm joined by my longtime Golf
Channel and golf media colleague, Damon Hack, who I first
met while he was covering golf of the New York
(00:21):
Times and Sports Illustrated after he had had stints at
Newsday and the Sacramento b covering the n A, NBA
and NFL. Of course, a big us L, a brewing
l a native, so we always have a lot of
fun discussing our beloved Dodgers and our beloved Lakers, though
we did not do that today on The Shack Show
because since two thousand and twelve, Damon has been at
(00:44):
Golf Channel in a variety of roles, most notably, though
I'm sure you've seen him as co host on Morning
Dry Monday to Friday, and then every once in a
while he still pulls out the old laptop and pens
a piece, as he did this week with a very
powerful column of about his current state of mind, the
current state of affairs, and oh just everything that's going
(01:06):
on in in America right now called can I be
both Thankful? And horrified? Can I? And it's a short,
lovely piece he put a little bit up on social media,
and uh, he is a sharp guy. I love his
story in golf, and and we get into that a
little bit and how he got in the game, because
I think hopefully you some of you listen to the
(01:28):
first few shows. No, I'm always interested in that because
we always seem to find out how people got into
the game in kind of an organic way, and I
think it's important as part of this topic and if
golf wants to be a place that's inviting, it's a
hard sport and hearing people like Damon's story is pretty cool.
So here is my conversation with Damon Hack of the
Golf Channel. Damon, I don't know the answer to this,
(01:51):
and we've we've spent some time together and I'm a
little embarrassed to say, but how did you get started
in golf? Who? Who started you playing the game of golf?
I was an intern at the old KAMPC sports radio
station Los Angeles, which you know very well. I haven't
heard that that call in a while. Wow, you'll Joe
(02:14):
McDonald dud Rccorean days, and the station director named Scott
O'Neal was an avid golfer and invited me one day
to play Spanish Hills, which I imagine is a place
where familiar with um kind of the ox Nard area,
and on the way to Santa Barbara and um, gosh,
(02:36):
I think I'm shot a hurting fifty or something. I
had no idea what I was doing out there, but
I played. He ended up giving me a set of
peerless irons, Arnold Palmer um because he was the station
director and had that kind of pull, and I was soon,
you know, kind of hacking pardon the pun, my way
(02:58):
through golf courses throughout college and then in Grat's going
to meet up to the Bay areas. Had some buddies
that played, and we play all over Childen Park outside
of UC Berkeley, in Oakland, we play, we go up
to Fairfield. It just it got into my blood real quick,
and I fell in love with the game. It happened
(03:19):
to be at the same time Tiger Woods was doing
his thing as well, met to to late nineties, So
it ala was all this time of this big collaboration
of events that that conspired to bring me into this
crazy game. And you've enjoyed the journey since I take it. Oh,
it's it's it's an incredible game to be a part
of as a player, as a broadcaster, as a golf writer,
(03:43):
being fortunate too to write for Sports Illustrated, the New
York Times Newsday and travel the world, and especially during
this era when Tiger has you know, brought such attention
to the game. It's it's a joy. The history of
the game. I love was history major U. C. L a. S.
And there's a lot out of of things I'm able
to read and appreciate and love just the the research
(04:05):
in in stories that are told and passed on. It's
just a it's a wonderful vocation to be a part of.
And you've written in length for Sports Illustrated for the
New York Times, uh less frequently since you started at
the Golf Channel in two thousand and twelve. But you
wrote a piece and that's why I wanted to talk
to you this week. Um. Compared to other things you've
(04:28):
you've written, where does this rank in terms of the reaction,
in terms of the volume, and then just also what
kind of things you have picked up from from comments
and feedback and other sources of of response to what
you wrote. I'll tell you, man, the response has been
(04:50):
overwhelmingly positive. First of It's been overwhelming, overwhelming period, Like
I didn't expect to get text messages and calls from people,
a lot of thank you, thank you for sharing, a
lot of people saying this has been an abstract issue
for me, and and that thank you for making was
once an abstract issue for me and putting a name
(05:12):
and a face to it. Um. I've been lucky to
have dear friends in this business, but I've never shared
some of the stories I've shared, and in a lot
of what's happened in our country over the last week
with the death of George Floyd, I felt like I
couldn't continue to go on television and be the optimist
and the smiling guy that I am, who who loves
(05:34):
his job and it's thankful for his job, but not
be able to express the pain I was feeling, and
that I've been pulled over a couple of times, having
broken no law, having not been speeding. I've been frisk before,
or for standing in front of my own home. Stories
we've heard before. I'm sure stories that others have heard before,
but I think people were surprised to hear those stories
(05:55):
coming from me because I am so happy and so
hopeful but I had been hurting over the last week,
and I wanted to share that hurt. And I didn't
expect people to say thank you for for opening up
in lighting and lighting Some people, what about in golf?
What what spent your experience in terms of uh, well,
(06:15):
obviously reading the piece, you clearly have had times in
the game where you haven't been comfortable with what you're
seeing or what's your experience? At least that was my
sense reading it a couple of times. Is that fair? Yeah,
that's fair. I think I've been around long enough now
where I felt like I kind of earned my spot,
as it were, um, earned my place on the team
(06:38):
as it were. I've traveled and covered the Majors and
Writer Cups and President's Cups. I've written cover stories for
The New York Times and s I been on Golf
Channel now for some eight years, so in some ways
they feel like I've earned my bones. But early on,
there were some some looks and and you know, double
checking that credential. Things like that would happen from time
(07:01):
to time, and I kind of I just put it
in the basket of of life as an African American
in the in the United States, and UM, I didn't complain. Um.
This piece wasn't meant to be a complaint. It was
meant to share and really to unburden myself and and
and kind of question why can't I feel so lucky,
so happy and so fortunate but also so sad this week?
(07:24):
And my wife encouraged me and you you nailed Jack.
I don't write as much as I used to. UM.
I presented it to Golf Channel dot com. Uh to
some of the employees. There's one of my boss is
there and they were like, you know, let's let's let's
let's see what you come up with. Let's see what
you have. They they they've always encouraged me whatever the
topic is. That they kind of respect my my my
(07:46):
resume as it were. They like when I write, they
wish I'd write more. They didn't know what was coming,
but when I I wrote it, I sent it in.
They quickly posted it and then just the the instagrams
and tweets and text messages, including from people in the industry,
from the PGA tour, from the U s g A.
I get the sense that people want to to help
(08:08):
and be part of a solution, and they know that
as great as our country is that it can be better,
it can be kinder, uh, and it can hopefully heal
from what's been a really really challenging week. Well, let's
this is a golf podcast, so I obviously want to
focus on some of the elements in your you're thinking
(08:28):
and things that were sparked in the piece by by
what I'm kind of seeing in the game, and also
Maurice Allen's piece. I don't know if you've seen that yet. Yeah,
that one, that one, that one really shook me up.
I feel like yours has a sequel coming or other.
I feel like there's more there is that, right I think? So, Um,
(08:51):
I feel like, honestly that my role at the Channel,
at my role on the show has angel a little
bit since um this article came out. And I say
that in a positive way that I almost feel like
I'm free to be me even more, and and not
that I wasn't me before, but I just feel like
(09:13):
I can exhale a little bit and I just thought
I couldn't do due diligence to myself to the viewers. Um,
just smiling and talking about Tiger and Phil and and
and with a heavy heart. So I hope to push
the envelope. I hope to challenge the golf industry are
viewers and others that want to ask questions and and
(09:37):
and maybe be a little uncomfortable. And that's been what's
it's been so rewarding, even in the short term. Listening
to Page McKenzie say thanks for you know, turning what's
been abstracted something real. For me, Hearing Anna Whiteley saying
this makes me have to kind of look at my own,
you know, privileged life and how it's different, and that
(09:58):
you face some things meaning me that never would even contemplate,
that would even cross her mind. So my hope it's
it really encourages conversation and and and maybe makes all
of us look at ourselves a little bit and look
inward and maybe the pain that I feel, um having
watched that video and see what's happened in the last week,
(10:21):
I don't want to be alone in going that way,
and I want I want others to uh to feel
hurt and feel like things have to improve and be
different in this country. Before we go a little bit
deeper on a couple of those things you mentioned, I
watched this I believe it was today's show. Yes, today's show,
you interviewed and we're recording this on On Wednesday, the
(10:43):
third of June, you interviewed Harold Varner, who wrote a
lovely collection of thoughts and tweeted them. Um. But one
of the things that interested me one in hearing the
reaction you've gotten. Um, it's different than the reaction UH
athletes are sometimes getting. And I I posted a piece
(11:05):
and that highlighted some of the ridiculous comments that some
of the golfers are getting for chiming in on on
Blackout Tuesday. But I I'm I'm curious your views on
the role of athletes right now, because it's it's something
that comes up, particularly with the golfers, it seems from
the comments I've read now. I haven't gone deep on
(11:26):
a lot of comments sections because I don't want to
lose my mind, but the golfers get an interesting kind
of pushback I I feel, and I'm curious what you think,
not just Harold, but other golfers, what what their role
is in in this conversation, or do you think they
should they should stick to playing golf. Yeah, I've been surprised.
(11:49):
I was on social media seeing the comments that the
likes of Brooks, kept Good, Ricky and Justin Thomas. They
posted the blackout instagrams on black Out Tuesday and they
they got some some positive responses also. But also stay
in your lanes and then all that kind of thing
you'll shut up and dribble that was pointed to Lebron
(12:11):
James Um a while back. I think the time for
staying in in in your lane is past. If if
we're having these conversations and Emmett till from from my
grandfather's era and that continues in Amma do Diallo and
Trayvon Martin and Brianna Taylor and George Floyd. You know,
(12:32):
you and I know what activism for our parents generation
was when you had the likes of Kareem and Arthur
Ash and Muhammad Ali and Jim Brown and so many
others um especially at campuses in U. C. L A.
And Berkeley and all up and down the West coast
throughout the country. I think the time for staying in
(12:54):
your in your lane means that I want to shut
my ears out and not listening to other perspectives. I
think athletes have a platform. I think hal Varner the
Three felt that and feels that um, I spoke to
Cheyenne Woods and she's got that interview is gonna run
this week. She she spoke about the role of athletes
as well, and we saw Tiger Woods, who many would
(13:15):
be surprised to hear him speak on the issue, released
his statement Michael Jordan as well. So, I I feel
like this is kind of a turning point moment, a
pivot point moment in our in our American history, and
our sports culture and our golf culture. Perhaps I think
the fact that Justin Thomas's and Brooks kept us have
(13:36):
become friends with, you know, the Goddess after the coupos
and Steph Currys and Tony Romo's, it brings them around
athletes from other sports. I think that's kind of given
them the freedom to express themselves as well. So I
know some people don't want the discomfort and the uncomfortable conversation,
and they don't well, they want to tune into sports
(13:57):
just to watch sports. But I think the time for
sticking to sport has passed. If we're gonna keep having
the same conversations every few years, and going back to
this point, it seems a little bit hypocritical too, since
we've elevated athletes, probably even since you and I've begun
covering sports to another level in terms of how they're paid,
(14:18):
who who, who they are in society, how we treat them,
how what we expect from them, what we look to
them to do to inspire. They've almost replaced people in
a lot of other sectors and politics and the um
creative enterprises of film, TV, whatever you want to look at.
They I feel like they have in so many ways,
(14:40):
and yet we then expect them to not speak up.
It seems a little strange, isn't it. It does. And
I want to add that I don't think every athlete
necessarily that they wanted. I wouldn't want for any of
them to speak. They may not feel comfortable or educating
or or or want their thoughts in the street. That
that's fine too, But this is America. If someone wants
(15:03):
to speak, and they have the platform to speak, and uh,
whether I agree with their opinion or not, by the way,
I think they have every right to express themselves and
then let let the chips fall where they may, Let
let everyone have their opinion. Let athletes who are in
many cases on the front lines of these discussions. And
you think about Jackie Robinson and how much sports has
(15:25):
been often leading the way in these issues. I've talked
about offensive linemen that come from you know, five different
parts of the country will be making up the five
block and supertect the quarterback. In a running back, you
have someone from the South and someone from the city,
and someone from urban American rule America, and and those
guys they're they're they're they're forced to bond and be
(15:47):
together and share our brotherhood. And I think sports can often,
uh lead the way in in a lot of our
our daily lives and conversations about race and society. Let's
take a quick break here on the Shack Show and
then we'll continue this conversation with Damon Hack of the
Golf Channel. Damon, one of the things uh that I
(16:17):
that I gleaned and in reading your column and then
and watching you on the show discuss it, uh was
the idea of a conversation and um trying to get
a little bit smarter, especially in the world of golf,
where I think your peace and and Harold Verner's and
Maurice Allen's really we're the ones that uh to me
(16:40):
or the thought provoking ones and I'm curious if you
were the commissioner of golf for a day and you've
experienced all these different initiatives and things that we do,
and somebody who got into the game, not the the
as a child, but a little bit later in life,
not not late life, but but later. And the way
(17:02):
you you told the story is just how so many
people get in the game. But you've you've observed in
all these different ways. If you if you had the
power to to try and improve things in the sport,
is there anything in particular that stands out to you
is kind of underwhelming at the moment and something you
would love to to repair if you were named the
(17:23):
fictional Golf care Commissioner of the Day, I'll tell you
what I feel like golf, especially the PG Tour, which
has done remarkable things for charity and every city that
it goes to, UH, the U. S. G A, the PM.
I want to see some of the power brokers in
(17:44):
the game use their power and if they're seeing that
their eyes have been opened in the last week, and
many of them have told me they have and they're uncomfortable.
They've got to figure out why, and they've got to
be willing to maybe take some chance is and use
their relationships in business and government to to really kind
(18:06):
of press for systemic and societal and meaningful, lasting change.
And I was watching one of the shows on CNBC
and it was a CEO African American man who who
said that in his school of of a thousand kids, uh,
one day, a gentleman took him in, like four others
(18:27):
out of the inner city, took him to to lunch,
told them about college and and society and how to
to to to kind of break out of the life
and and the potential uh stagnant future that they had
and and and sowed them a world that was possibly
available to him. And he said he would not have
(18:48):
he would not have ended up the seal of a
company if someone hadn't taken real, you know, lasting and
important care and and interest in his back story in
his life. And I just think that we really need
some some power brokers in this game so to to
push for really looking at shaking the roots of of
(19:10):
this game in society and maybe getting out of the
comfort zone. And I say that knowing that there's been
wonderful and meaningful strides, uh, you know with first ke programs,
and drive Chip and PUD and and the t Low
Golf program in Orlando, which focuses on minority and lower
income kids. But I just think that you know, with
(19:34):
the money that's being thrown around and in the pockets
that a lot of these organizations have, if you're uncomfortable
with what you've seen, and you you have the phone
of presidents and governors and senators, and you have those relationships.
By Gali, I think we've got to use them otherwise
(19:54):
we're just gonna be having the same conversations down the road.
I'm you know, I'm I'm those sociolog just I for
sure Shack don't have the answers or all the answers
or any answers. But I do feel that this feels
like a moment. And from the the quiet messages I've gotten,
the surprising messages I've gotten from from people in various organizations,
(20:16):
I feel like people want to do something structural and meaningful.
And I hope, and speaking to Hill one of the
third that when he says, hey, we're gonna be staying
in the same hotels, I'm gonna be forced to have
these conversations with my peers, and then we forced all
those conversations with me, that the power brokers lead the way,
the athletes can lead the way, and that that it's
(20:36):
not just you know, an African American, you know, broadcaster
being pained and wanting to do something meaningful. That it's
that it's others as well. That's collective mindset that helps
all of us kind of break out of this this
societal rut that we seem to be in, um over
these last years and decades and and longer. You mean,
(20:59):
hiring a black man to do your voiceovers for your
p s A S isn't enough. Um. I mean, you
know that you're so right on about all that, and
I just struggle as I'm listening to you, picturing how
how we break through that, because so much of what
golf seems to do is oh well, well well, I
mean they just the amount of money, first of all,
(21:21):
just put into public service announcements and feel good things
that do not a bloody thing to introduce somebody to
a sport that's so hard to get into to begin with,
it's so intimidating. Um. And then and then just to
think that those kinds of ads, especially in a world
where where where people get their their media in so
many different places. Now they're even more meaningless than before.
(21:43):
But they're they're generally pretty um empty, and they don't
do a whole lot and and I uh, it just
seems like to me that that so much about golf
that we know is that the sport, the values of
the sport, the playing of the sport, the going to
a worse and spending money and dealing with the first
t shot and all that. It teaches you everything you
(22:04):
need to know as you play. Um. But but these
ad campaigns, uh, they don't they don't get they don't
help you get to the golf course, and and and
kind of work out the kinks, uh and and and
just carried back to how you got into the game.
So you you got the itch? Did you just you
got those clubs? Did you just kind of just start
going to the range and and working it out? Did
(22:27):
you get lessons? Did you get any I mean, obviously
you weren't. You know, you didn't go to a first tea.
That's my point. It happened organically, it really did. It
happened organically kind of meeting like minded people who wanted
to play, who love to play. I fell in love
with golf journalism. Being at UC Berkeley, I took a
sportswriting class and started to read the likes of Frank
(22:50):
to Ford and Rick Reiley and Herbert Warren Wyn and
some of the giants Dave Anderson, um of of our,
of our industry, and it really I was moved by
by just how beautiful golf writing could be. And so
here's here's Tiger, who you know, a minority who's starting
to win US Amateurs and junior amateurs. And I graduated
(23:13):
from cal that my master's in ninety six, so I
watched him beat Scott in Oregon for his third straight
US Amateur and um he turned pro that year. He
won a couple of times before the calendar changed in
tone seven, and we all know what happened at the
Master's in ninety seven. So it was just kind of
this combination of of things that had happened that really
(23:33):
got to be interested in the game as a player,
as a journalist who who wanted to one day be
a sportswriter. And I have been fortunate to cover the NBA,
the NFL, and golf as well as beats and and
I want to tell you one thing, I am encouraged
by and in my reporting over the last couple of
days and and getting ahold of a memo that that
(23:54):
Jay Monahan, the commissioner, I sent to his staff and
to the players that you know and kind of asking,
you know, what are the answers? How do we how
do we kind of grow as a game and as
a as a sport and society. And and I love
that he said, look, I don't have I don't have
all the answers. My job right now is to listen.
And he told his staff that he spoke to some
(24:15):
leaders in the African American community and that they accepted
that he didn't have the answers, and that that he
wanted to listen and learn. And you know, I hope
that that's a powerful statement that can lead to some action.
We know that the PC Tour can do and has
done uh lots of good and and and the game
(24:36):
that I love that I came to organically, and now
that it is a part of my life, my family's life.
I've love nothing more than playing golf with my sons
um and spending uh an afternother course is that that
this game, which has had an exclusion harry past, can
can possibly be at the tip of the spear and
(24:56):
in helping all of us, you know, get through this
really fraught moment our history. Yeah, I just uh, I
guess what I struggle with always with these with the
organizations in golf is that I know they're they're well meaning,
but then you ask you and the reason I want
to kind of go back to your story is that
it we we know that the generally the people who
become lifelong golfers are are those who they almost stumble
(25:21):
into it, or they tag along with some people and
watch them play, or they they get asked to go
to a clinic and they watch and then they go
hit a bucket of balls, and it just seems like
the sport is so and And one of the issues
I struggled with the first T when it was so
values driven, it it felt a little like, well, here's
how we do it in in the white, wealthy world.
(25:44):
These are the values of the game, and here, you know,
here's the list and memorize them. It just felt forced.
And again, the sports just so tough, uh to to
break through. And I tell you, I'm with you on that,
and I'll tell you this had had Scott and you're
not handed me that to the golf clubs. Uh, and
(26:06):
tiger Wood has not been so uh dynamic. I mean,
I grew up in a house where if if golf
was on, we collectively turned it off. And I'm playing
as a kid. I mean, my dad told me that
he hit a couple of chip shots once in a
buddy's backyard because there was a club land on the
ground and that's it. That was his only time ever
(26:27):
ever swinging a golf club. So, um, golf was golf
if golf was on, and we were waiting for basketball
to come on. What I'm saying on a weekend. That's
kind of how it was in in my home. So imagine.
And that's a home that you know, that had college
educated parents and uh living in California where there's a
lot of golfers. You know. So if that's my experience
(26:49):
as a kid growing up, what what's gonna be the
experience of of a kid in the inner city. Golf
might as well be something played on the move, uh,
you know, in terms of the accessive bill, the and
the relatability uh to a young person from the inner city.
All right, we're gonna take one more break here we're
talking to Damon hack on the Shack Show. Damon. One
(27:16):
of the things that UH in in this China, this
idea of the atmosphere in golf and in the intimidation factor,
and now that we're able to have this conversation too
about about race, that we shouldn't even be having to
have me I was laughing at our our parents were
(27:37):
u c l A In Berkeley in nine when a
lot of things are going on, some different issues. But
it's just mind boggling that we're still kind of trying
to work through these things as a country. But I
UH have increasingly the longer I'm in the game, even
though I was very lucky as a as a child.
My dad joined Riviera when I was sixteen, so I
got to to play this amazing golf course and it's
(27:58):
shaped my interest. But as I get older and the
more I'm around the game, and and the point that
Marie Salen hit on that that really hit me and
his peace is this this clubby Vibe and this entitlement vibe,
And I am curious what your experience has been with
(28:19):
that and what you see as that being where that
is on the list of issues that really turned people
off to the sport and and set a poor uh
really a poor tone, I think because it it we know,
we kind of know what that vibe usually is trying
to say, is we're in the club and you're not.
(28:42):
It can be intimidating. The shock. I gotta be lying
if I that I never felt intimidated walking onto golf
courses in those early days especially and even in the
early days, you know, carrying a all season long pass
for the p G H were as a credential reporter.
Um the sound of metal spikes walking behind me when
(29:05):
I was making an eleven far before and and hearing
somebody saying, like, you know, hurry and hurry it up.
I was in Palm Springs, you know, no more than
a year after I picked up a club for the
first time, and you want to talk about a fish
out of water, you know, along a bunch of older
(29:26):
players who had played the game forever and who didn't
necessarily like love having me out there. It was an
intimidating thing. And I've grown past that. I've I've I've
worked hard and obviously been been happy and successful and
thankful and grateful. But that doesn't mean that others who
(29:46):
we try to follow, you know, us into this game,
cannot feel that it is intimidating, and it can be
awfully clubby. And I mean it's inherently clubby, country club.
I mean it's it's it's it's inherently designed to keep
out the great unwashed, you know, and that's a when
that's kind of in the d n A of your game.
(30:09):
You've got a lot of work to do. And I
feel like we're in a place where golf has recognized that,
not that you know it is um you know, the
Rainbow Coalition at this point, but I do think they've
made some some some some good strides and some important strides.
And it may be slower than other sports, and it
(30:30):
is slower than other sports, but I agree, I think
maybe gosh, the Steph Curry health is Tony Romo health
is Charles Buckley, you know, doing a broadcast help um,
I hope, but man um, I think the sport has
been helped by Tiger clearly, and helped by by other athletes, UH,
(30:52):
minority athletes in particular taking interest in the game and
and kind of lowering the temperature on on that that
that clubby feel that we all have always there. Uh,
and we just want to minimize it as much as
we can. Yeah. I struggle with a lot of things
in terms of golf right now and sort of the
overcompensation syndrome that we have where we have to make
(31:17):
the golfers mighty and the most amazing athletes who walked
the face of the planet Earth. And it always mystifies
me because some of the grass athletes in the history
of the world I have not only loved golf, but
they've they've played it passionately and they look awful doing
I mean, I saw Jordan's swing recently on one of
(31:40):
the last dance clips and I forgot how how weird
had it gotten. And of course Barkley and a and uh,
but even some of the grass athletes of all time,
you go, well, that's a that's a that's a good move,
but you could tell it's not a tour player move.
And and yet the sports always trying to to to
to tell us that they're they're different now and and
(32:00):
instead of being comfortable in its own skin that way
that that it's a sport, it's weird. It's hard trust us.
Look at these great athletes who take up the game
and and and they don't even quite look right. So
that should tell you how special these these pro golfers are.
And it's it's always been kind of a strange thing
to me that the sport kind of seizes on the
(32:23):
wrong things. Anyway, I want to think that's interesting. I
want to I want to jump in on that, because
I do think there's a there's a tendency to kind
of want to make brooks Kepta Brian Urlack. Yeah, you know,
it could be in the NFL. DJ could be you know,
starting for the l A Lakers tomorrow if you wanted to.
And you're right, I mean, the art and scienceificitting a
(32:44):
golf ball is hard enough as it is. It doesn't
need exaggeration um to make it a wonderful challenge and
a great way to spend a few hours trying to
make a couple of birdies. But you're right, Yeah, you know,
Kept is a fantastic golfer, a great professional golfer, and
(33:05):
so is Rory, and so is dj. Uh. They don't
need to have a foot race with the sat Bolts
to have credibility. Yeah, for us to respect them more.
It's it's just a strange thing. But by the way,
did you see any of the photos of Tiger and
Phil next to Brady and Manning? Yes, And did you notice,
and now you've been around both of tigers in great shape,
(33:29):
but they looked tiny compared to those two. They're just
such large people, football players, even quarterbacks. The Tiger and
Phil just looked they just looked kind of slight. And
they're not in person, They're they're not slight. Uh. Happy
that it wasn't Jadeveon Clowney and j J. The Tiger
(33:50):
and Field exactly thought it was the David and Golah show,
no doubt about it. We we we know you know
that those guys having been an NFL locker room, Yeah,
you've seen they're from a from a different planet. Yeah.
So the last thing I want to talk a little
bit about a Tiger because of course, he was criticized
for taking his time to issue a statement, which I
(34:13):
you know, I'm I struggle with that kind of I
don't get that, um and I but I wondered just
and everybody, of course just says, well, he's this way
because of business reasons and learning from Jordan's and Republicans
buy shoes and all that stuff. And I kind of
think he has something else going where he he he
(34:34):
feels like he's put what his foundation does out there
and it has a very uh singular mission revolving around education,
and it's an incredible thing that he has created. Um
do you do you feel like that is part of
why he is uh maybe a little bit uh slow
(34:56):
to to react to some of these things and chime
in because he feels like his for lack of a
better phrase, body of work uh speaks for itself. I
think that's part of it. I think that his experience
as a minority is different from mine, is different from
so many others, and I think that there is probably
(35:16):
a knee jerk reaction in some way to think that
Michael Jordan's should think the way that Tiger Woods does,
as you think the way that Charles Barkley does, you
think the way that Deshaun Watson does. And Titan has
been very you know outspoken in his lack of being
outspoken that he is, you know, capitalizing as he put it,
that he's part you know, tie, and that would be
(35:38):
denying his mom if he just said I'm just black,
I'm just African American, that he has other ethnicities as well.
A couple that with the fact that he's extremely private,
uh name he's got privacy and and and with the
fact that he is multicultural in in his mind it
doesn't want to wait those issues and the Republicans buy
shoes upbringing in the Nike Kingdom as it were for
(36:03):
him as well. So I do he gets a number
of factors. And I do think that one of the
underreported and underappreciated stories is the work that his foundation
has done. They having met some of those young people,
remember being in Bethesda, Maryland one year and sitting with
Tiger and beating some of the folks who got Earlwood's scholarships.
Impressive young people. He's been big on STEM education. Uh.
(36:27):
It's a huge part of his charitable work, in a
huge part of his portfolio. So I do think that
that is an aspect as well as a Tiger's letting
that work speak for itself. It's it's his view of
himself also as multicultural, not just African American. It's the
fact that he's private, uh. And it's the fact that,
uh he's an athlete in a modern era and one
(36:49):
who has chosen to be uh very reticent to step
into social issues as a rule. Do you miss writing?
I do. I do miss writing. Um, I've love hearing
from people when I do write and saying, man, I
wish you'd write more, because every now that I feel
(37:10):
like you know, I'm gonna forget how to do it,
and I get moved to do it. Sometimes a story
will happen. It could be just as simple as you know,
Tiger and his back surgeries, or or a great duel
on a Sunday with Rory Brooks. And I do enjoy
the process of of putting pen to paper when I
(37:31):
get the opportunity and when I'm inspired to do so,
and when I do it, I usually feel good afterwards.
And the morning drive five day a week, waking up
at four in the morning, it can beat you down
a little bit and your brain doesn't work is as
swiftly and smoothly as you like it to you when
you've got all that time in the world too to
really kind of put your thoughts together. But man, I
(37:53):
love to power through it and write stories because, um,
whether it's a heavy subject or some whimsical I usually
feel good after doing so. And this was a case
of doubt as well, Yeah, you do feel good after
doing a show, but you you don't really hear much
unless you screw up usually, right, isn't that kind of
the way television is? I mean, I I don't do
(38:14):
it as often as you do, but it just seems
like that's about the only time you ever really hear
from people. Yeah, and as you know, everybody's got a
phone these days. And then let you know when you
said that, uh you know, phil one six majors instead
of five. Oh yeah, well, well I look, I do sense,
I do believe there's a sequel to this piece. I
(38:37):
hope you keep on the topic. It was a great,
uh conversation starter. And I'm glad to hear that you
have maybe a little dialogue going with some of those
people in golf, and I hope you're able to convince
them maybe to put a little less money into those
glossy glossy p s a s and maybe a little
more money into the local MUNI that that that's uh,
(38:58):
that needs a little bit of love and to be
a play so that a kid goes to and goes, wow,
this is this is kind of neat so or whatever
it is that that things like youth on course and
oh and you mentioned one in Orlando. What was that?
What do they do? What's what's the concept outreach and
bringing minority kids to the game. Uh, they accept you know,
(39:22):
kind of hand me down clubs. They've been working on
trying to to find green spaces that they can turn
into practice facilities for for young folks, especially in areas
that are underserved. So one of the great programs here
in Central Florida. And that's one one of the things
that Marie Salent hit on was was also getting the
(39:42):
word out a little bit more on these kinds of things,
things like youth on course that are that are doing
stuff above and beyond the first tea or complimenting it
or or other ways of trying to get people in
the game. So thank you so much, Damon. I look
forward to seeing you write more often, and I hope
you stay on this topic because you you did a
beautiful job. That's greatly appreciated. Shack. I always going to
(40:05):
spend some time with your pal. Well, thank you again
to Damon. I neglected to get into it because really
it's just not right at the moment. But if you
love wine, Damon is an incredible writer in many ways,
but he's now becoming an incredible wine connoisseur and he's
got a little project brewing Goats and Grapes is his
(40:27):
Instagram account if you want to follow that. And when
he goes a little bit deeper and and produces the content,
as the kids like to say, on that end, I
will certainly highlighted and we'll have him back to discuss that.
I've always wanted to have some conversations with a with
a wine connoisseur about golf courses and the equivalence in
the wine world. That just think it's kind of a
(40:48):
fun comparison to make and something a little bit lighter
than what we're dealing with at the moment. But again,
thank you so much to Damon for for sitting down
writing and also being willing to talk about his work.
The Shock Show is produced by Tim Protkin is a
production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from My
Heart Radio, please visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. So until
(41:11):
next time, please be safe and thank you for listening.
M H.
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