April 10, 2020 • 54 mins
Two-time Masters champion, Ben Crenshaw, joins Geoff Shackelford in the third episode of The Shack Show to discuss the 1984 and 1995 Masters and the emotions involved in trying to win the green jacket. Ben also shares his thoughts on the evolution of Augusta National and specifically, the 13th hole.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Shack Show is a production of I Heart Radio.
Years ago, Ben Crenshaw won the Masters, and it remains
one of those tournaments that we all know where we were,
(00:21):
if we were alive when we watched it, who we
were with everything about Ben's emotional victory. The week that
Harvey Pinnock died, I spoke to him today, which would
have been the first round of the Masters. Normally been
would have presided over the champions dinner earlier in the week,
as he has done since n eight, which I didn't remember.
(00:43):
But I went back and read his wonderful book written
with Melanie hous Or, A Field for the Game, and
he's been doing that since and and presides over that
wonderful gathering that is a great part of the Master's tradition.
But without further ado, here's my conversation with Ben Crenshaw
discussing and hold at Augusta National. Thank you Ben for
(01:08):
joining us. I know you you'd much rather be in Augusta,
Georgia this week, But in lieu of that, I hope
we can talk about the Masters and not get to
too depressed about not being there this week. How I'm fine, Jeff.
It is. It is strange. I've got to tell you that,
you know a little, when this thing started. I was
(01:31):
actually at Augusta before they made all these announcements, and
they were scurrying and I just barely missed the chairman,
Fred Ridley. He had flown back to Tampa. But I
was invited by Dallas member to go over there and
we played uh you know, one afternoon, and then had
(01:51):
dinner in the evening, and then we flew back the
next day. But the right right then, it was just
so strange being there, Jeff, at that time, because nobody
knew what was gonna happen. It was just the fear
of the unknown had just barely set in. And there
(02:12):
were like eight other members at the club, and we
played and the head dinner that night. But then the
next day they they announced, well weren't no, We're not
We're not gonna do it. We're postponing it. And it
was so say being there. But anyway, came back and
then you know, going through the ramifications of not only
(02:36):
not playing the Masters, but PGA tour stopped, all athletic events,
stopped colleges. You know, my poor my youngest daughter is
uh in her last semester at USC taking courses on flying,
they postponed the graduation, so you know, it's it's just fun.
(03:00):
The whole nation has stopped. But I must say in
the past few days, in the last week when when
the the announcement was made that the tournament was going
to be played in November, I think it gave a
boost in the arms. Certainly in the golfing world. You know, everybody,
uh looks forward to this time of year, starting the
(03:23):
year and then the ensuing championships and it's just you know,
you know something's wrong when they cancel Wimbledon and in
the Open Championship, you just go, what is going on?
So we have things to look forward to. Uh, it's
I know that the specter of what the weather is
(03:48):
going to bring in November, I mean, who knows. It
could be cool. I just hope it's not wet, Jeff,
uh and you I hope for a little breeze and
dry condish and the cooler conditions might might not have
you might not be able to hit the ball as far.
(04:09):
It could be really interesting played I have and it can.
It tends to be damp sometimes and uh it's long.
It plays long. Then but I just hope that it
stays dry Somehow do you, uh you play the members
te these days? I presume I play as far up
(04:31):
as like, yeah you go for fun now right? Yes? Well,
on that topic, I went back and watched uh some
some moments from when you won, and I would like
to cover a little that with you today. I know
these anniversaries are different for different people, but Alan Schipnuk
(04:52):
wrote up a wonderful piece today. Let's posted up on
golf dot com that I'll put in the show notes
about the anniversary and going back and watching with you
and Julie telecast. Was that the first time you'd watched
it in a while? Yeah, I have not. I had
not watched it for a long time, and it's uh
(05:17):
when I watched that, it's um. The weather that day
was particularly bright and it was warm, and the ball
for me, I was traveling in a pretty good way.
I'll never forget the t ball I hit on thirteen
last day. It went around the win, around the corner,
(05:39):
had a five iron to the green. I don't think
I ever never did as long as I played over there,
which was good lord forty three times. I've never been
that far Uh, so I hit this five iron at
a critical juncture and pulled it of course and left
to the green and somehow made a four to keep pace.
(06:03):
But no, the ball was traveling pretty good that day.
When it gets like that, Um, you have to change
gears a little bit, and you have to you have
to worry about how far the ball is going, especially
in your your approach shots. Uh, you know, trying to
get the right club and the right shot. But no,
(06:24):
that day it was particularly bright. Do you like that?
Because Kenventuri always felt like the golfer's ideal whether was
was was a gentle overcast or overcast is did you
prefer Is Augusta significantly different in those different lights versus overcast? Yeah,
it can be, Jeff, because there's so much undulation in
(06:46):
the ground and when the sun starts to go down,
you get glares and you like fifteen fifteen, you're always
into the sun if you're playing real late. Um. And
that was. Uh. That that that brings up to me
one of the best stories I ever ever heard about
(07:07):
Number fifteen at Augusta Dave Marr. Dave Marr told me
a long time ago when he was Arnold Power was
this is and Dave was running second to Arnold, playing
with him, and they drove it out on fifteen and
of course Arnold had a you know, I had like
a first shot lead, and of course he whips out
(07:28):
of for wood and he for the green and he
swings and the ball got lost in the sun. And yeah,
and he turned around to Dave and he said, Dave,
Dave didn't make it across. And he said, hell, Arnold,
you're divid made it across. So no, I mean, but
(07:50):
you can you can get some glare and uh, you
know those tall trees it no kidment touris right. You
can always see here in a little bit of an
overcast day and then it mutes those those the contrast
that you get with the shadows and the late light. Um,
so I can I can imagine that. But just on
(08:13):
that on that day, obviously we we know all what
a magical week it was. Um you've talked a lot
about the weight and how excruciating it was. How how
was that one that that day uh for you compared
to other because you were in contention so many times
(08:33):
and and had that weight of teen off late, How
was that one compared to others? Did you have a
different feeling or was it similar to the others. I
I just wanted to try to keep going the thoughts
that I had with my swing, which that my swing,
my rhythm felt very good that whole week, starting out
(08:54):
on Thursday, and I had I played a really nice,
quiet round on on Thursday, and then kept it going
on Friday and Saturday was good and I just did
not suffer somebody lapsed of concentration or I didn't get
(09:14):
up start with myself when I made a mistake, And
it was just miraculous to me that only made five
bogies during the week. That's just not like me at all,
but something I just had patience that week, and I
was not not in a hurry. I just had a
(09:35):
nice pace going and I've kept it going, and uh,
you know, Jeff, I just I've said so many times
that I had a lot of help from a lot
of different places that week, and it just somehow I
had a calming temperament going around most of the week
and I just kept this simple faults going. And Carl Jackson,
(10:00):
it was just brilliant in the way that he handled me.
He knew me so well, and uh, he could tell
the first of the week, when we got the news
of Harvey's death, that I had a practice session and
he he said, Ben, you just you look like you're
playing hockey. You're too fat, and just get said get
(10:24):
that ball back in your stance and make a tighter
turn with your shoulders. And I mean it was in
when then five balls, I started hitting the boat well,
and I just gained confidence just in a very short
period of time. And I just kept that thought going
the whole week, and I had a great feel. Some
great things happened to me. But five bogues during the week,
(10:48):
that's the remarkable to me. Now, you you say you
were calmed by watching the replay. You were pretty hard
on yourself after the tea shot. Well, I don't know
if you were hard on yourself on the t shot
on twelve or you were just mad that you were
about a foot or two from from being on the
right where you wanted to be, and in thirteen you
were you were pretty hard on yourself when you pulled
(11:09):
the iron. I was, I was twelve. Twelve was a
pretty good tea shot and it was just a little short,
and you know, fortunately I got it up and down.
That called me down. But then the I don't know,
it just as preposterous that I hit the ball around
the corner on thirteen, had a five iron to the green,
(11:29):
my longest T shot. Then I messed that up, so
I was little perturbed there. But the danger was losing
a stroke to the field then and uh wow, that
put went in that they gave me a big lift.
And you were a leaderboard watching that day or not
till the back nine. I didn't watch it until across
(11:52):
the pond and saw that Davis Love had had posted
uh brilliant around And then at that moment I was
even with Davis. So I went over to sixteen tea
and said, this maybe my best chance sixteen seventeen. Uh
(12:14):
and you know, I just had a And when I
walked over to the tea box, I started looking at
the sixt shot that I had and I said, you know,
I've got just a little bit of a following win.
And the whole process through the picking of that club
that was just like it was crystal clear. Just just
(12:34):
make a good swing with the sixth own and no,
I didn't have to do anything to it. So it
was just a great relief to see that ball going
up the green that started coming back to the hole.
You're your rhythm that day. That was the thing I
noticed watching that that replay was was just and Weiskoff
mentioned it, Uh, I actually kind of set up like
(12:55):
he did as an announcer. He was so good as
announcing and uh, and set that up a little bit
about how that was just kind of what you need.
And he was impressed with that that T shirt on.
He thought you had four iron in but uh, as
you know, watching it, but he was so impressed with it.
But at your rhythm just looked it's just it's it's
as as as um steady and and just beautiful as
(13:18):
as I think you ever was in your your career. Right,
it just was just a nice flow and it was unhurried.
It was an unhurried backswing and I got things together
at the top and I came back down. But um,
the ball position felt great. You know, I got it
in a position where I had to stay down through
the shot. It was it was it was more instinctive
(13:43):
than anything. But but I just you know, all through
that when I made the birdie at sixteen, and then
I hit two really nice shots at seventeen and really
made a wonderful pot there um and God, it was
just such a relief to have one more stroke. And
(14:05):
then uh in a nice teaball at eighteen and I
started walking down the hill Jeff, and I just then
I started breaking a little bit. I said, I cannot believe, uh,
that is happening this particular week, in these circumstances. And
and I started breaking. Uh went up the hill and
(14:26):
hit a kind of a poor eight aron shot and
then uh, you know, luckily enough, I've gotten up to
where I had an extra stroke and I got that
put in and I just collapsed. Yeah. And uh, Carl,
I was asked many times he said, what what did Carl?
Carl came up to you and what did he say?
(14:50):
And I remember I said, Carl, what Carl was saying?
Are you okay, buddy? And I just mumbled no. And
he he said he did a radio interviews. He said no,
And not only he was crying, he was boo hoo,
(15:11):
but I was I was totally spent, totally spent. Yeah,
I'll put that in our show notes here. It was
with Scotty and they had on on the radio and
it's a great listen. It's it's a lot of fun.
Um was there anything else? From watching that that broadcast?
You notice I noticed the spike marks on the greens
(15:31):
on a couple of those puts you made very much
so especially that one on thirteen. Oh my lord, that
was a bunch and it was a Minefield made that
put to stay, you know, to not to not give
away another stroke. Uh you know then because I knew
everybody was gonna birnie that a whole the way it
(15:52):
was playing that day, so I didn't want to give
another stroke away. And uh no, great relief when that
ball went in. But no, the spike marks were there.
I have to ask one question and we'll take a
quick break after that. But Julie in the article that
Allen wrote, was was quoted having some laughs about the fashion,
(16:16):
which is amazing. I uh, you know how how things
changed and it wasn't that I ago. I know it's
twenty five years ago. It was, but it is amazing. Uh.
Where are you on shirt selection for the final round
as it coordinates and relates to the green jacket? Is
(16:36):
that something you ever gave thought too? Because it was
an interesting choice for the final round, A floral blue
floral pattern. I wouldn't have guessed that friendly. It was
kind of a strange pick of colors, wasn't it. And
Allan Allen did such a great job of that story.
But yeah, it was. It was funny. We I had
(16:57):
a contract with a clone in company, Jeff Rose, and uh,
this guy came with the shirt. I could tell it
was really blue, But what was really important was what
was on it. And it was a montage of Bobby Jones,
uh winning it was Grand Slam year, and uh, I
(17:21):
just I thought, well, hey, that's that's that's pretty good.
I want to wear that for inspiration and uh, very
much like the the the Ryder Cup shirts, you know.
But it was like a montage of of Ryder Cups
and all winning teams of the United States, and that
(17:42):
was took people by surprise, no, no doubt. But the color,
the color was such that the pictures and the portraits
themselves stood out. So that was the reason for the color.
But no, it didn't. It probably didn't go great with
the green jack. Did you think about that though? Ever? No,
I didn't. Yeah, some guys do, right, quite a few do. Yeah, yeah,
(18:06):
But I just said I'm gonna wear this because this
is He's my inspiration anyway, Bobby Jones. So it worked,
It worked. I gotta find a close up of that shirt.
I did not know that. I I it's a good one.
It's a good one. Okay, where is that shirt? Now?
I've got We've got it. Yeah, we've got it here.
(18:27):
I think you got sayers. My manager has one too nice.
But yeah. Um, well, let's take a quick break and
hear from our sponsors, and then I want to talk
about the thirteenth Hold with Ben Crenshaw on the Shack Show.
All right, we're back. Um, so Ben, you know, it's uh,
(18:51):
it's a strange time, and I think it's fun to
just kind of go deep on something. And I had
the pleasure of getting to spend a little time with
you and uh with a beautiful rendering of the thirteenth
hole by a young man named Josh Pettitt who's an
aspiring architect and doing some work and a Mackenzie uh
nut and knows everything there is to know. He's the
(19:12):
one who found the old part three course rendering by
Mackenzie that's in the Olmstead archive. And anyway, he we
came down to Austin for the golf channel and filmed
you looking at that map, and uh, I just was thinking,
with everything that's going on, to be fun to just
go through everything about the architecture of that whole and
(19:33):
and pick your brain if you're if you're okay with that,
well then let's let's just start at the walk from
from twelve to thirteen. Since you've first played Augusta National,
the walk has gotten a little longer to that that
back te um. But if you don't mind, just just
(19:53):
tell me a little bit about, uh that walk from
an architect and a player's point of view, and and
uh what it's like. It's I've often wondered, Jeff uh
from Dr Mackenzie was first building the course, I've always
wondered whether the bottom of the course or the thirteenth
(20:16):
hold had that singular fascination in his mind. And it's
in it's day, it was the most natural hole. It
still is, but it is the the actual depiction of
the whole. It says everything about the golf course. It
(20:41):
says everything about what should go on in in a
player's mind. In that you have this this water not
very shallow creek on the left. The fairway tilts right
to left, but it absolutely as you into trying to
(21:02):
play that draw off the t in other words, play
close to the trouble, and then you have a supreme
award reward and both in terms of the length that
you can gain by your T ball and a flatter
lie on your on your on your um the shot
(21:24):
that you're you're thinking, you're you're about to make, but
it's it's when you look at the T ball. You
have all that room to the right, it's very very
safe over there, but it just simply lengthens the whole.
And you played another couple of times and you said, well,
(21:46):
I know that I can get this ball around the
corner if I played correctly. But then you then you
play it and then you crash. A few times you're
hit in the creek and you say, well, you dummy,
You've got on the room to the right. And then
the sack and shot is just the green is just
beyond yea, the tributary raised creek, and it it's inviting,
(22:10):
it's fairly wide. But you know that if you come
off the ball a little bit, in other words, hit
it to the right, you're you're cooked. You're going into
the you're going into the creek and a very great
undulating green. The old green was spectacular. Uh what the
(22:33):
original green before say before I'm not saying it casting
any of his persions on Jack Nicholas. But the drainage
swelled to the left of the green was not there
in the original um and it had you know, the
series of shallow bunkers back there. But the green was
(22:56):
maybe a little wider than different undulations. Uh. And it
was almost a three tier green. Uh, but you know,
very long of course. But it once again, uh, the
green and how it was picked, how it was, how
(23:16):
it was built, was to portray once again, it's it's
risk reward. You can go for the green, you can
make it eagle, you can make a quick six or seven,
and it's played so much of a pivotal role in
so many and so many tournaments there. But it's it's
the thought of taking, Jeff a entirely natural situation and
(23:43):
making a golf hole out of it, as much as
they do in the British Isles. You have a situation
and you make a hole out of it, and there
and there it is. But it's it's it's uh, it's
brilliance is its simplicity I suppose the way that you
would put it, uh, it's uh and yeah, let's not
(24:11):
forget that it's maybe one of the most gorgeous hopes
that you could ever look at when when it's in bloom,
it's just spectacular. But the contours of the ground are
just beautiful. The contours are beautiful. The fair way to
me is I try to uh explain to people just
(24:33):
how severely tilted it is. Do you think they massage
that much? Because it feels it's right on the edge
of almost uh extreme. It seems to me. The one
place you get that view, it's one of my favorite
spots is over between twelve and thirteen looking down thirteen,
and you kind of get a sense of it. But
(24:55):
is that something that people probably underestimate in ter so
how difficult it is? Absolutely, you can hit a very
good T ball out there and and now now you're
faced with an awkward lie that bought way above you.
And so that's that that dennotes a hook, that that
(25:20):
brings a hook into the equation, and that's not what
you want to go into that green with. You'd love
to have a high fade with a little spin on it,
but that's a difficult shot to play from that line.
So there again taking the terrain that they had and
they did not alter it that much. But the great
part is that the closer you play to the creek,
(25:43):
the more level line you've got. So that's that's brilliant.
So you know how many second shots have been tried
and missed from those lies, uh, and approach and so
you get the green light, and then you've got to
deal with that lie and you've gotta you gotta do
a little extra something to keep your balance to hit
(26:04):
a solid shot. So it's it's pretty thrilling. It's pretty thrilling.
There's there's nothing, there's nothing like it when you're in
contention when trying to play that shot. Yeah, yeah, since
that's always one of the things that people uh don't
quite understand when all of us want to see the
whole plate, as it was intended that when the players
(26:26):
are able to throw it over the corner, they lose
both the need to shape the t shot, uh and
also the the the use of the fairway and and
the dynamics of being down low left versus versus up
high right. And I don't know, it's uh, I you've
got to think that was one of the holes, if
(26:47):
not the hole when they looked at the property. And
I believe they even mentioned it, uh Mr Jones did
and maybe in golf is my game, but but that
that was a centerpiece of the whole routing working around
that ground. I didn't one of them right that that
was they tried to they found it essentially, yes, oh yes,
(27:12):
you know. And the water. They always had problems with
number twelve being flooding issues and and they you know,
many many years they had problems with number eleven as well. Uh,
you know, it's particularly you know, and also Clifford Roberts book. Uh,
(27:32):
they had drainage problems. You know in the early years.
You know that miles and miles of tile underneath so
they could try to drain the property because you know,
it consists of clay. Uh, and then drainage is always
a problem. When you've got clay, you've got those lower areas,
water is going to collect and it can't get out sometimes,
(27:55):
so the bottom of the course. As as beauty beful
it is. Uh, they they had problems in the beginning,
but they've there's there's there's there's no telling what kind
of network underneath the turf, they're no telling yeah, yeah, uh.
You got me thinking to about the green. Did you
(28:17):
ever play a version of it where there was there
was a more distinctive front way way front, left, whole
location that you see in the old photographs. Well, I
can't remember that. I tell you one thing, Jeff. When
I was an amateur, my first two years nineteen two
and seventy three, they gave us a h U a
(28:42):
print of the thirteenth hold. I've still got it, and
and it depicts the old green and it's a beautiful print,
really a beautiful print of how the green was. Um,
I'll tell you another thing. To people, if people could
look up there was a series of of of h
(29:06):
golf shots that Ben Hogan said there those are kind
of black and white, but they showed the green which
was which was then, and it's beautiful green. Probably a
little more natural looking green, I dare to say, but
(29:26):
it's people could look that up and show you show
people how it was. I've looked at that and it's
pretty interesting. And then there were those unusual bunkers at Alistair.
Mackenzie and his team and and uh Wendell Miller and
everyone created uh, what would you call? Yeah, what do
(29:48):
you how would you describe those? Well, I probably say
a little more natural looking, yeah, uh offaming anybody, but
they were a little more unkempt. Let's say, uh that
that was just a look back then you see it
in the old pictures. But no, that's that's a different,
(30:09):
different era. Yeah. Now when you did you and Carl
have an understanding about that hole that you discussed in advance,
um or was it just a moment day by day
situation and he would just it would just be like
any other hole that he was catting for you on. Oh,
(30:31):
it was very much day by very much day by day.
And you know, I'll tell you what so so much
fun with Carl Jackson. Carl Jackson knew me so well,
but he knew the golf course so well. I mean,
I was convinced that I had the best caddy and
that's why I stayed with him forever. There's no that
(30:53):
was crystal clear in my mind. But we had a
way of working out a particular club to go into
into a green and we would we would just discuss
it very simply, you know, and civil Carl, I like
the six and he said, you you said you got
it worked together, and or you say something very simple
(31:14):
like you know it's maybe it's a it's a it's
a light five. I like that. But we worked out shots.
We never worked with yardage. Did you know that? We
never worked with any yardage. He knew the yardage, but
we were just concentrating on the shot to play. So
he wouldn't give you a number. No, Uh, we didn't
(31:35):
work at any numbers. Wow, did you play that way
anywhere else? Yeah? I did you know? My first full
year on on the tour nineteen seventy three, I played
by by absolute feel. I didn't have any yardage at all.
Well that for a caddy, that I mean you really
(31:56):
have to have a trusting relationship with a caddy to
do that, right. Oh? Absolutely? And and you know this
was you know, way way long ago people people actually
Dean Beemon and Jack Nicholas and Jack Nicholas got the
(32:18):
idea of playing by yardists from Dean Beemon. This was
way back when he was an amateur, so he started
charting course. Is a little bit more. Arnold Palmer had
a great old caddy named Creamy Carolin on the tour
who made all these books he was one of the
earliest bookmakers on tour that you know, and he started
(32:41):
selling him and then the idea, uh proliferated. But you know,
the start of my career, not many people were using yardage.
That's it's it's hard for us to fathom that. Now.
Can you imagine that where they have shot linked had
an analyst who breaks it down to tell people how
(33:03):
to play a hole and of course dissected by it's
just dissected by everything. Now. Uh well, let's take another
quick break and then I want to ask you about
those two years in the final rounds here on The
Shack Show with Ben Crenshaw. Okay, so ur the moment
(33:28):
you thought you saw Billy Joe Patton? Remind me? Was
that on Saturday or Sunday? That was on Sunday? So
you you didn't hit a very good drive? TV had
you a two off the tea that seemed a little low. Yeah,
I don't know where I caught that on the club,
but I didn't get enough out of it and the
I made a quick decision not to go for it
(33:51):
on my second shot, I would have had the powder
at three would where I was And so many tournaments
that I played Billy Joe Patton would always be the
rules man on thirteen. He'd hide behind one of those
trees and I would always see him. Uh. And it's funny.
I thought of him. I thought I saw him during
(34:17):
that particular decision, but he said he wasn't there. But
I'll tell you this, he was in my mind before
I hit the shot because I knew that in his
uh fifty four year Uh. He went for the green
on thirteen and fifteen and lost narwie. Uh, But I
(34:44):
thought of him. Uh, And I laid up and uh
it was. It was strange, very strange. But that guy
was so funny. He could really tell a story. But man,
he came off a close times as an amateur. I'll
tell you the guy who really came close was Charlie Cole.
(35:07):
Charlie Cole was brilliant player. God was he beautiful player
to watch. I want uh in Austin. Here we had
a pro am. You wan't to believe this. Jeff in
the n and Orville Moody had just won the US
Open at Champions in Houston, and we had this little
(35:28):
Austin program at Austin Country Club. That's some fine players
that came out, and Harvey said, man, I want you
to watch one player today who's gonna be here, and
that's Charlie cole h Man. Was he good? He was
really fun to watch. He could sting it. Did he
give you anything specific that I want you to watch
(35:50):
or just just watch him? Just watch? No, you just
watch that, Just watch that. Man. Would he ask you
after what you saw anything like that? Yeah? I did,
I said, I said, Harvey, what a swing? I said.
He had the most the most beautiful wrist cock at
the top of the swing. But it was natural and
(36:10):
it was solid. It was really solid. Fun to watch.
Back to eight four. You lay up and then what
what was the you? You were sort of exasperated and
and kind of kind of put your arms in the
air and and Kenventurry didn't know what to make of it.
What was that? I just I was saying to myself,
(36:30):
I had to lay up, you were Yeah, I threw
my hands up. No, I surrendered the shot, was what
I did. Surrendered it? Now, you're dad That that wasn't
one of the times you could hear him yelling out
lay up right, No, that was okay he did it
(36:53):
that day. No, he didn't do it that day. But
he did it. He did it so many times. I
could hear him on fifteen he lay up, lay up,
and didn't that constitute advice? So yeah, it would well good.
The committee doesn't need to go back and look at those. Uh.
(37:15):
But you doo don't matter what right. It wasn't like
it was inconsistent advice. It was the same thing every time. Right. Oh,
he was so my dad was. He knew something bad
was gonna happen all the time. But my brother Charlie
and I would just laugh about that. He he he
(37:35):
said he's gonna make an eight. He's gonna make an
eight or something. He was just kind of that kind
of dad. He was. He was hilarious. He he played
it out on his sleeve. Did you play there much
with him? I never did, but he had a really
good friend in Augusta. I'm not sure if he ever
played the course, but he went around it many times. Yeah. Um,
(37:58):
just kind of back to the design. Uh. I just
want to ask you kind of as it relates to
your work and um, the changes that have happened there
over the years in the prospect of possibly another t
although I don't believe Chairman Ridley wants to do it,
and we'll do everything in his power not to do it. Um,
(38:19):
But how much do you think about when you're when
you and Bill are doing a golf hole, Uh, the
dynamics of something like the twelfth green to thet tea there,
Because I know I've I've heard you talk about the
things that go through your mind on that walk to
the tea. And and it was really fun last year,
(38:40):
by the way, Ben in the Augusta National Women's Amateur
to see those women well one, how they played, which
was just ludicrous, unbelievable. And then but when they walked
off twelve I barely had chance to turn my head.
I was talking to a few people and I look
and all of a sudden they're teeing off and you
just forget at the dynamic of the pacing is so
(39:03):
different when you just yes, if you don't have to
walk back that much. But then you know that that girl,
that girl just got up there and just had two
of the most beautiful shots on that whole It's oh,
just beautiful. Yeah, you're right, it's it's a situation where
the t was you walk right off the collar of
(39:23):
the green and you're there and you know, like forty steps,
thirty steps, and that's so nice. And then you you
you're up there, you get a look around the corner,
you sit all before you and it's a continuation of
the thought process really when you when you think about it,
and then it's so quiet, you're not you know people.
(39:46):
Let me tell you something that and that is it's
almost an eerie feeling when you you complete number eleven,
you go to the twelve tea, you hit and you
start walking and some of the old caddies have said,
you know, the only thing you can hear then is
your heart beat and the caddy's heart beat, and you're playing,
(40:07):
playing partner. It's spooky feeling. Really. Yeah, there's nothing like
it really in tournament golf. I mean they're occasional, but
nothing on that that stage of that size. Maybe I'm
trying to think of pebble now, pebble, I guess the
eighth t and pebble beat. You're you're kind of by
yourself at a certain point, but it's not the same
(40:30):
type of t shot in terms of everything. It's almost
an eerie feeling. You see all the people, all the
spectators way up there, but it is quiet back there
and it's solemn. How much does No, It's just like
it's a reflection, uh, of what you've done so far
(40:52):
during the round. Are you how you just messed up
to twelve old and you manage yourself or your or
you're excited that you made an occasional two or matting
really up and down par that you needed and you're
just keyed up. You're keyed up. But it's just totally silent,
(41:12):
amazing a lot of people when they uh discuss the
way the whole plays now versus many years ago season
the par and said we'll just change it to a
par four. But mentally, doesn't that completely change the dynamics
of it going from a five to four? Yes? And
(41:34):
I mean and I know that that that you know
fred Ridley is struggling with the fact he wants to
keep it five. You know, there's there's just that added
element of of emotion someone coming from behind and making
an eagle there or messing up the whole. Uh, there's
(41:58):
a There's just a lot that can happen dramatically if
it stays a five. I would always fight for keeping
it a five in some particular way. No question about it.
I don't know what's gonna happen, Jeff. They have all
the space in the world to do what they want
to now, I don't know what's gonna happen. I'd hate
(42:21):
to make that decision. Really, you want the players. You
want all the players when when Jones talked about that
momentous decision you want to have You want to have
people go through that every time they play it. That's
the fun of it, that's the thrill of it. That's
(42:42):
what people want to see. That's what people want to
feel of of a leader or a pursuer in that position.
And that's what makes the whole golf course so unique
because you're you're faced with the decisions that you normally
don't make at other times during the year, and it's
(43:05):
in such a spectacular setting. So much that can happen. Uh,
so much as that has happened in the past. You
know the stories, you know the players, you know what happened.
You know, you know in ninety four, you know, you
just start picking out years thirteen. Why they call it
(43:28):
Amen Corner that our friend Herbert Warren when aptly named it.
Did you discuss that whole much with him? Every bit
I could Herbert Warren when I found a man totally
fascinating and so talented as a writer. He loved golf
(43:50):
so much, so much. You know, he wrote about other sports.
Golf really really turned him on. But he could he
could threat us story and make it really jump off
the pages that you were reading because he knew everybody
you mentioned somebody, and so I met him a long time.
(44:12):
He just knew everybody in golf and he just loved it.
A brilliant writer. Yeah, I have a book of his,
some some non golf writing that my mom picked up
at a at a book sale, and I'm gonna get
into it. He gets into some of the Dodgers, that
famous Dodgers. I'm I'm anxious to read just him on
(44:33):
other other other things. What are you are you reading
anything at the moment um? You know what, I'll tell
you what I was rereading. And it's a book. It's
on my desk right now. You're you know, our our
friend Steve you Banks is uh writer that I've that
(44:56):
I've met at Augusta many many times. But he he
wrote this book a good while ago. But this book
is called To Win and Die in Dixie h and
it's it's about it's about one of Jones's contemporaries, and
it's a true story and it's a it's a it's
(45:18):
almost like a mystery novel. But this guy could play.
This guy could play. Name was James Douglas Edgar, j
Douglas Edgar and uh, it's he you know, heame's on
the Walker Cup with Jones. But this guy, it's it's
(45:38):
he did the best job. It's it's it's unbelievable. They's
already might have been murdered. He goes through it. It's
it's outstanding story. But that's just one. I've got stacks
of books everywhere here. Yeah, I like to I'm I'm
kind of a rereader. I go back and look at things.
I've got the right here is the Architectural Side of
(46:03):
Golf Weather in Simpson, which is one of my favorite.
There's so many good thoughts in that book. The writing
is just incredible. Yeah, I'm I'm like, how you think
of Max Beyer. Max Beyer to me, you showed meet
some of his writings and they're just they're just brilliant
(46:26):
and their thoughts are very intense, but makes so much sense.
He talks about freedom, freedom of space, you know, and
almost like an American enjoys freedom, but that should be
that should be enjoyed on the golf course as well,
and it reflecting and in designs, and he wrote about
(46:48):
what he thought and what his philosophy was, so well,
he's the one figure that I wish we knew more
about what he did to prepare Bobby Jones uh for
designing Augusta National, and and Dr Mackenzie as well, since
(47:08):
they we're friends. But you know that time that Bobby
Jones spent here in southern California and playing lakeside Max
bears design, which was very linksy and and featured so
many of the ideas from from the old course that
he and an undulation and being in certain locations and
(47:31):
of certain holes. I I just can only dream of
the conversations they had. And the timing of that, of course,
was was so perfect before building Augustina National and and
and it's it's and they were obviously friends and and
Max Bear wrote about him, but Jones never went into
too much depth about that time in southern California what
(47:52):
it meant for Augusta National. But I think it's safe
to say it was it was part of his education
and preparation for actually building the club. I think no doubt.
I think no doubt. And uh they had that piece
of land, had Augusta had that spaciousness that uh, those
(48:14):
thoughts about St Andrews came in uh and that that
that philosophy. Uh so I don't think there's any questions
that you know in southern California. Uh, those thoughts presentedly
had to Yah. Well, I'll let you get to your
(48:36):
your reading. It sounds fantastic, and uh, I thank you
so much for your time today. I'm sorry you're not welcome.
Uh today you'd be uh enjoying the first round of
the Masters. Normally you would have had a wonderful champions
dinner with Tiger Woods returning as a as a former
champion and hosting. But hopefully you get that opportunity in November,
(49:01):
and uh we can all you get to celebrate the
anniversary again in November. Yeah, we're gonna do it again,
and I can't wait to say a few words about
Tiger at the dinner. You know, he won that tournament
last year with Patients in Diligence, and he had such
a a memory vault of things that have happened. He
(49:26):
just knew how to play it. And things happened for tuitishly,
for truitlessly, for him, but he knew what to do
and he just executed brilliant. Yeah, don't you marvel? I
mean I always do it. Players like him, well, all
of you, anybody who gets to that level, but somebody
like him? Who who I mean? Has there ever ever
(49:48):
been a I don't think there's ever been an all
time great player who was so good, had so much
trouble and and in a lot of different ways. A
short game gave him fits for a while as off
swing and then of course his body, and then to
go and do what he did as if none of
that happened, and put those the demons are the bad
(50:11):
thoughts or the the memories away and to perform like that.
There's nothing comparable, is there? Maybe? I mean, I mean
Mr Hogan's issues were We're different. I'm I'm just thinking
of a a a player of unbelievable concentration powers. You
(50:37):
think of Hogan, you think of Nicholas, and you think
of Tiger. They had in minds like steel traps. They
know everything that's going on, and they have such an
awareness of where they are and what instincts and how
to play. He those guys knew everything that was going on.
(50:59):
He's so perceptive tiger player. As a player, nobody excels
uh in that category. His mind is unbelievable and his
he had the patience and the diligence to just waite
him out. But he executed beautifully. All of the shots
(51:20):
well I'm not saying safe, but they were solid and
well thought out. Do it do us a favor when
you if you get him in a relaxed mood and
that at that Champions Center, get him to talk about
the twelfth hold and how he went over to the
green You as a text and had to love that
little bit of gamesmanship out there. Uh it was. It
was totally totally clean and fair. But it was just
(51:42):
a beautiful use of his his presence and aura and
the red shirt and the you know the moment I'm
talking about right well, when when his playing partners were
dealing with the creek and he was over, he just
had to go clean up that line a little bit
and let him know he was on the other side
of the creek and they weren't. I just you know
(52:02):
it wasn't rude. It wasn't rude. All the greats have
have done something like that, use their their presence, right, Well,
I don't know, once again, to meet Jeff once again.
The whole that makes that stirs me imagination so much,
(52:27):
happens to be the shortest hole there by by a
long shot, the meanest little mental uh uh mind boggling
a little hole that that makes so much difference. It's
just amazing. That little hole just crazy. It's it's such
a it's well, we're gonna get to watch it all
(52:49):
over again. CBS is airing the final round on Sunday,
and and I can't wait to to really sit with
a big screen and watch kind of that whole thing
play out again. Not because I enjoy watching people hit
at the creek, but just all the dynamics involved. And
of course it was so the wind was getting nasty,
and it was it was an amazing master but but
but you're win was pretty amazing. So I appreciate you
(53:12):
reliving some of it with us. And it's great to
talk to you same here. Ben. Thank you so much.
You take care all right, you too, all right, I
hope you enjoyed that conversation with Ben. We can go
all day long. I recorded a couple of other things
afterwards that I will be putting together at some point
(53:33):
here with some of the other comments of other guests
so far here on the shack Show or three episodes in.
I hope you're enjoying it. I hope you subscribe wherever
you get your podcasts, and I will certainly again at
Jeff Shackleford dot com put up some show notes, a
lot of stuff from Ben's conversation there that I think
you'll enjoy, his uh conversation with Alan Shipnuk that's out
(53:54):
on golf dot com, and Carl Jackson's recent radio interview
with Scotty Sayers, and some other interesting things about Ben Hogan.
I gotta go dig up that Ben Hogan video on
the thirteenth Hole. I think it's on YouTube. We'll have
to see anyway. As always, thank you to everybody at
My Heart for your support of the show, the show's producer,
(54:16):
Tim Perrotka, show's logo creator Aaron Atkins, and to Jeremy
Eisenberg for helping to get the show off the ground,
and to Scottie Sayers for lining up the phone call
with Ben today on this very special anniversary week. Unfortunately
not one that Ben is getting to spend in Augusta
to celebrate, but maybe in November. As we discussed on
the show, It'll Happen. The Shack Show is a production
(54:36):
of My Heart Radio, So for more podcast from my
Heart please visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
The Shack Show is a production of I Heart Radio.
Years ago, Ben Crenshaw won the Masters, and it remains
one of those tournaments that we all know where we were,
(00:21):
if we were alive when we watched it, who we
were with everything about Ben's emotional victory. The week that
Harvey Pinnock died, I spoke to him today, which would
have been the first round of the Masters. Normally been
would have presided over the champions dinner earlier in the week,
as he has done since n eight, which I didn't remember.
(00:43):
But I went back and read his wonderful book written
with Melanie hous Or, A Field for the Game, and
he's been doing that since and and presides over that
wonderful gathering that is a great part of the Master's tradition.
But without further ado, here's my conversation with Ben Crenshaw
discussing and hold at Augusta National. Thank you Ben for
(01:08):
joining us. I know you you'd much rather be in Augusta,
Georgia this week, But in lieu of that, I hope
we can talk about the Masters and not get to
too depressed about not being there this week. How I'm fine, Jeff.
It is. It is strange. I've got to tell you that,
you know a little, when this thing started. I was
(01:31):
actually at Augusta before they made all these announcements, and
they were scurrying and I just barely missed the chairman,
Fred Ridley. He had flown back to Tampa. But I
was invited by Dallas member to go over there and
we played uh you know, one afternoon, and then had
(01:51):
dinner in the evening, and then we flew back the
next day. But the right right then, it was just
so strange being there, Jeff, at that time, because nobody
knew what was gonna happen. It was just the fear
of the unknown had just barely set in. And there
(02:12):
were like eight other members at the club, and we
played and the head dinner that night. But then the
next day they they announced, well weren't no, We're not
We're not gonna do it. We're postponing it. And it
was so say being there. But anyway, came back and
then you know, going through the ramifications of not only
(02:36):
not playing the Masters, but PGA tour stopped, all athletic events,
stopped colleges. You know, my poor my youngest daughter is
uh in her last semester at USC taking courses on flying,
they postponed the graduation, so you know, it's it's just fun.
(03:00):
The whole nation has stopped. But I must say in
the past few days, in the last week when when
the the announcement was made that the tournament was going
to be played in November, I think it gave a
boost in the arms. Certainly in the golfing world. You know, everybody,
uh looks forward to this time of year, starting the
(03:23):
year and then the ensuing championships and it's just you know,
you know something's wrong when they cancel Wimbledon and in
the Open Championship, you just go, what is going on?
So we have things to look forward to. Uh, it's
I know that the specter of what the weather is
(03:48):
going to bring in November, I mean, who knows. It
could be cool. I just hope it's not wet, Jeff,
uh and you I hope for a little breeze and
dry condish and the cooler conditions might might not have
you might not be able to hit the ball as far.
(04:09):
It could be really interesting played I have and it can.
It tends to be damp sometimes and uh it's long.
It plays long. Then but I just hope that it
stays dry Somehow do you, uh you play the members
te these days? I presume I play as far up
(04:31):
as like, yeah you go for fun now right? Yes? Well,
on that topic, I went back and watched uh some
some moments from when you won, and I would like
to cover a little that with you today. I know
these anniversaries are different for different people, but Alan Schipnuk
(04:52):
wrote up a wonderful piece today. Let's posted up on
golf dot com that I'll put in the show notes
about the anniversary and going back and watching with you
and Julie telecast. Was that the first time you'd watched
it in a while? Yeah, I have not. I had
not watched it for a long time, and it's uh
(05:17):
when I watched that, it's um. The weather that day
was particularly bright and it was warm, and the ball
for me, I was traveling in a pretty good way.
I'll never forget the t ball I hit on thirteen
last day. It went around the win, around the corner,
(05:39):
had a five iron to the green. I don't think
I ever never did as long as I played over there,
which was good lord forty three times. I've never been
that far Uh, so I hit this five iron at
a critical juncture and pulled it of course and left
to the green and somehow made a four to keep pace.
(06:03):
But no, the ball was traveling pretty good that day.
When it gets like that, Um, you have to change
gears a little bit, and you have to you have
to worry about how far the ball is going, especially
in your your approach shots. Uh, you know, trying to
get the right club and the right shot. But no,
(06:24):
that day it was particularly bright. Do you like that?
Because Kenventuri always felt like the golfer's ideal whether was
was was a gentle overcast or overcast is did you
prefer Is Augusta significantly different in those different lights versus overcast? Yeah,
it can be, Jeff, because there's so much undulation in
(06:46):
the ground and when the sun starts to go down,
you get glares and you like fifteen fifteen, you're always
into the sun if you're playing real late. Um. And
that was. Uh. That that that brings up to me
one of the best stories I ever ever heard about
(07:07):
Number fifteen at Augusta Dave Marr. Dave Marr told me
a long time ago when he was Arnold Power was
this is and Dave was running second to Arnold, playing
with him, and they drove it out on fifteen and
of course Arnold had a you know, I had like
a first shot lead, and of course he whips out
(07:28):
of for wood and he for the green and he
swings and the ball got lost in the sun. And yeah,
and he turned around to Dave and he said, Dave,
Dave didn't make it across. And he said, hell, Arnold,
you're divid made it across. So no, I mean, but
(07:50):
you can you can get some glare and uh, you
know those tall trees it no kidment touris right. You
can always see here in a little bit of an
overcast day and then it mutes those those the contrast
that you get with the shadows and the late light. Um,
so I can I can imagine that. But just on
(08:13):
that on that day, obviously we we know all what
a magical week it was. Um you've talked a lot
about the weight and how excruciating it was. How how
was that one that that day uh for you compared
to other because you were in contention so many times
(08:33):
and and had that weight of teen off late, How
was that one compared to others? Did you have a
different feeling or was it similar to the others. I
I just wanted to try to keep going the thoughts
that I had with my swing, which that my swing,
my rhythm felt very good that whole week, starting out
(08:54):
on Thursday, and I had I played a really nice,
quiet round on on Thursday, and then kept it going
on Friday and Saturday was good and I just did
not suffer somebody lapsed of concentration or I didn't get
(09:14):
up start with myself when I made a mistake, And
it was just miraculous to me that only made five
bogies during the week. That's just not like me at all,
but something I just had patience that week, and I
was not not in a hurry. I just had a
(09:35):
nice pace going and I've kept it going, and uh,
you know, Jeff, I just I've said so many times
that I had a lot of help from a lot
of different places that week, and it just somehow I
had a calming temperament going around most of the week
and I just kept this simple faults going. And Carl Jackson,
(10:00):
it was just brilliant in the way that he handled me.
He knew me so well, and uh, he could tell
the first of the week, when we got the news
of Harvey's death, that I had a practice session and
he he said, Ben, you just you look like you're
playing hockey. You're too fat, and just get said get
(10:24):
that ball back in your stance and make a tighter
turn with your shoulders. And I mean it was in
when then five balls, I started hitting the boat well,
and I just gained confidence just in a very short
period of time. And I just kept that thought going
the whole week, and I had a great feel. Some
great things happened to me. But five bogues during the week,
(10:48):
that's the remarkable to me. Now, you you say you
were calmed by watching the replay. You were pretty hard
on yourself after the tea shot. Well, I don't know
if you were hard on yourself on the t shot
on twelve or you were just mad that you were
about a foot or two from from being on the
right where you wanted to be, and in thirteen you
were you were pretty hard on yourself when you pulled
(11:09):
the iron. I was, I was twelve. Twelve was a
pretty good tea shot and it was just a little short,
and you know, fortunately I got it up and down.
That called me down. But then the I don't know,
it just as preposterous that I hit the ball around
the corner on thirteen, had a five iron to the green,
(11:29):
my longest T shot. Then I messed that up, so
I was little perturbed there. But the danger was losing
a stroke to the field then and uh wow, that
put went in that they gave me a big lift.
And you were a leaderboard watching that day or not
till the back nine. I didn't watch it until across
(11:52):
the pond and saw that Davis Love had had posted
uh brilliant around And then at that moment I was
even with Davis. So I went over to sixteen tea
and said, this maybe my best chance sixteen seventeen. Uh
(12:14):
and you know, I just had a And when I
walked over to the tea box, I started looking at
the sixt shot that I had and I said, you know,
I've got just a little bit of a following win.
And the whole process through the picking of that club
that was just like it was crystal clear. Just just
(12:34):
make a good swing with the sixth own and no,
I didn't have to do anything to it. So it
was just a great relief to see that ball going
up the green that started coming back to the hole.
You're your rhythm that day. That was the thing I
noticed watching that that replay was was just and Weiskoff
mentioned it, Uh, I actually kind of set up like
(12:55):
he did as an announcer. He was so good as
announcing and uh, and set that up a little bit
about how that was just kind of what you need.
And he was impressed with that that T shirt on.
He thought you had four iron in but uh, as
you know, watching it, but he was so impressed with it.
But at your rhythm just looked it's just it's it's
as as as um steady and and just beautiful as
(13:18):
as I think you ever was in your your career. Right,
it just was just a nice flow and it was unhurried.
It was an unhurried backswing and I got things together
at the top and I came back down. But um,
the ball position felt great. You know, I got it
in a position where I had to stay down through
the shot. It was it was it was more instinctive
(13:43):
than anything. But but I just you know, all through
that when I made the birdie at sixteen, and then
I hit two really nice shots at seventeen and really
made a wonderful pot there um and God, it was
just such a relief to have one more stroke. And
(14:05):
then uh in a nice teaball at eighteen and I
started walking down the hill Jeff, and I just then
I started breaking a little bit. I said, I cannot believe, uh,
that is happening this particular week, in these circumstances. And
and I started breaking. Uh went up the hill and
(14:26):
hit a kind of a poor eight aron shot and
then uh, you know, luckily enough, I've gotten up to
where I had an extra stroke and I got that
put in and I just collapsed. Yeah. And uh, Carl,
I was asked many times he said, what what did Carl?
Carl came up to you and what did he say?
(14:50):
And I remember I said, Carl, what Carl was saying?
Are you okay, buddy? And I just mumbled no. And
he he said he did a radio interviews. He said no,
And not only he was crying, he was boo hoo,
(15:11):
but I was I was totally spent, totally spent. Yeah,
I'll put that in our show notes here. It was
with Scotty and they had on on the radio and
it's a great listen. It's it's a lot of fun.
Um was there anything else? From watching that that broadcast?
You notice I noticed the spike marks on the greens
(15:31):
on a couple of those puts you made very much
so especially that one on thirteen. Oh my lord, that
was a bunch and it was a Minefield made that
put to stay, you know, to not to not give
away another stroke. Uh you know then because I knew
everybody was gonna birnie that a whole the way it
(15:52):
was playing that day, so I didn't want to give
another stroke away. And uh no, great relief when that
ball went in. But no, the spike marks were there.
I have to ask one question and we'll take a
quick break after that. But Julie in the article that
Allen wrote, was was quoted having some laughs about the fashion,
(16:16):
which is amazing. I uh, you know how how things
changed and it wasn't that I ago. I know it's
twenty five years ago. It was, but it is amazing. Uh.
Where are you on shirt selection for the final round
as it coordinates and relates to the green jacket? Is
(16:36):
that something you ever gave thought too? Because it was
an interesting choice for the final round, A floral blue
floral pattern. I wouldn't have guessed that friendly. It was
kind of a strange pick of colors, wasn't it. And
Allan Allen did such a great job of that story.
But yeah, it was. It was funny. We I had
(16:57):
a contract with a clone in company, Jeff Rose, and uh,
this guy came with the shirt. I could tell it
was really blue, But what was really important was what
was on it. And it was a montage of Bobby Jones,
uh winning it was Grand Slam year, and uh, I
(17:21):
just I thought, well, hey, that's that's that's pretty good.
I want to wear that for inspiration and uh, very
much like the the the Ryder Cup shirts, you know.
But it was like a montage of of Ryder Cups
and all winning teams of the United States, and that
(17:42):
was took people by surprise, no, no doubt. But the color,
the color was such that the pictures and the portraits
themselves stood out. So that was the reason for the color.
But no, it didn't. It probably didn't go great with
the green jack. Did you think about that though? Ever? No,
I didn't. Yeah, some guys do, right, quite a few do. Yeah, yeah,
(18:06):
But I just said I'm gonna wear this because this
is He's my inspiration anyway, Bobby Jones. So it worked,
It worked. I gotta find a close up of that shirt.
I did not know that. I I it's a good one.
It's a good one. Okay, where is that shirt? Now?
I've got We've got it. Yeah, we've got it here.
(18:27):
I think you got sayers. My manager has one too nice.
But yeah. Um, well, let's take a quick break and
hear from our sponsors, and then I want to talk
about the thirteenth Hold with Ben Crenshaw on the Shack Show.
All right, we're back. Um, so Ben, you know, it's uh,
(18:51):
it's a strange time, and I think it's fun to
just kind of go deep on something. And I had
the pleasure of getting to spend a little time with
you and uh with a beautiful rendering of the thirteenth
hole by a young man named Josh Pettitt who's an
aspiring architect and doing some work and a Mackenzie uh
nut and knows everything there is to know. He's the
(19:12):
one who found the old part three course rendering by
Mackenzie that's in the Olmstead archive. And anyway, he we
came down to Austin for the golf channel and filmed
you looking at that map, and uh, I just was thinking,
with everything that's going on, to be fun to just
go through everything about the architecture of that whole and
(19:33):
and pick your brain if you're if you're okay with that,
well then let's let's just start at the walk from
from twelve to thirteen. Since you've first played Augusta National,
the walk has gotten a little longer to that that
back te um. But if you don't mind, just just
(19:53):
tell me a little bit about, uh that walk from
an architect and a player's point of view, and and
uh what it's like. It's I've often wondered, Jeff uh
from Dr Mackenzie was first building the course, I've always
wondered whether the bottom of the course or the thirteenth
(20:16):
hold had that singular fascination in his mind. And it's
in it's day, it was the most natural hole. It
still is, but it is the the actual depiction of
the whole. It says everything about the golf course. It
(20:41):
says everything about what should go on in in a
player's mind. In that you have this this water not
very shallow creek on the left. The fairway tilts right
to left, but it absolutely as you into trying to
(21:02):
play that draw off the t in other words, play
close to the trouble, and then you have a supreme
award reward and both in terms of the length that
you can gain by your T ball and a flatter
lie on your on your on your um the shot
(21:24):
that you're you're thinking, you're you're about to make, but
it's it's when you look at the T ball. You
have all that room to the right, it's very very
safe over there, but it just simply lengthens the whole.
And you played another couple of times and you said, well,
(21:46):
I know that I can get this ball around the
corner if I played correctly. But then you then you
play it and then you crash. A few times you're
hit in the creek and you say, well, you dummy,
You've got on the room to the right. And then
the sack and shot is just the green is just
beyond yea, the tributary raised creek, and it it's inviting,
(22:10):
it's fairly wide. But you know that if you come
off the ball a little bit, in other words, hit
it to the right, you're you're cooked. You're going into
the you're going into the creek and a very great
undulating green. The old green was spectacular. Uh what the
(22:33):
original green before say before I'm not saying it casting
any of his persions on Jack Nicholas. But the drainage
swelled to the left of the green was not there
in the original um and it had you know, the
series of shallow bunkers back there. But the green was
(22:56):
maybe a little wider than different undulations. Uh. And it
was almost a three tier green. Uh, but you know,
very long of course. But it once again, uh, the
green and how it was picked, how it was, how
(23:16):
it was built, was to portray once again, it's it's
risk reward. You can go for the green, you can
make it eagle, you can make a quick six or seven,
and it's played so much of a pivotal role in
so many and so many tournaments there. But it's it's
the thought of taking, Jeff a entirely natural situation and
(23:43):
making a golf hole out of it, as much as
they do in the British Isles. You have a situation
and you make a hole out of it, and there
and there it is. But it's it's it's uh, it's
brilliance is its simplicity I suppose the way that you
would put it, uh, it's uh and yeah, let's not
(24:11):
forget that it's maybe one of the most gorgeous hopes
that you could ever look at when when it's in bloom,
it's just spectacular. But the contours of the ground are
just beautiful. The contours are beautiful. The fair way to
me is I try to uh explain to people just
(24:33):
how severely tilted it is. Do you think they massage
that much? Because it feels it's right on the edge
of almost uh extreme. It seems to me. The one
place you get that view, it's one of my favorite
spots is over between twelve and thirteen looking down thirteen,
and you kind of get a sense of it. But
(24:55):
is that something that people probably underestimate in ter so
how difficult it is? Absolutely, you can hit a very
good T ball out there and and now now you're
faced with an awkward lie that bought way above you.
And so that's that that dennotes a hook, that that
(25:20):
brings a hook into the equation, and that's not what
you want to go into that green with. You'd love
to have a high fade with a little spin on it,
but that's a difficult shot to play from that line.
So there again taking the terrain that they had and
they did not alter it that much. But the great
part is that the closer you play to the creek,
(25:43):
the more level line you've got. So that's that's brilliant.
So you know how many second shots have been tried
and missed from those lies, uh, and approach and so
you get the green light, and then you've got to
deal with that lie and you've gotta you gotta do
a little extra something to keep your balance to hit
(26:04):
a solid shot. So it's it's pretty thrilling. It's pretty thrilling.
There's there's nothing, there's nothing like it when you're in
contention when trying to play that shot. Yeah, yeah, since
that's always one of the things that people uh don't
quite understand when all of us want to see the
whole plate, as it was intended that when the players
(26:26):
are able to throw it over the corner, they lose
both the need to shape the t shot, uh and
also the the the use of the fairway and and
the dynamics of being down low left versus versus up
high right. And I don't know, it's uh, I you've
got to think that was one of the holes, if
(26:47):
not the hole when they looked at the property. And
I believe they even mentioned it, uh Mr Jones did
and maybe in golf is my game, but but that
that was a centerpiece of the whole routing working around
that ground. I didn't one of them right that that
was they tried to they found it essentially, yes, oh yes,
(27:12):
you know. And the water. They always had problems with
number twelve being flooding issues and and they you know,
many many years they had problems with number eleven as well. Uh,
you know, it's particularly you know, and also Clifford Roberts book. Uh,
(27:32):
they had drainage problems. You know in the early years.
You know that miles and miles of tile underneath so
they could try to drain the property because you know,
it consists of clay. Uh, and then drainage is always
a problem. When you've got clay, you've got those lower areas,
water is going to collect and it can't get out sometimes,
(27:55):
so the bottom of the course. As as beauty beful
it is. Uh, they they had problems in the beginning,
but they've there's there's there's there's no telling what kind
of network underneath the turf, they're no telling yeah, yeah, uh.
You got me thinking to about the green. Did you
(28:17):
ever play a version of it where there was there
was a more distinctive front way way front, left, whole
location that you see in the old photographs. Well, I
can't remember that. I tell you one thing, Jeff. When
I was an amateur, my first two years nineteen two
and seventy three, they gave us a h U a
(28:42):
print of the thirteenth hold. I've still got it, and
and it depicts the old green and it's a beautiful print,
really a beautiful print of how the green was. Um,
I'll tell you another thing. To people, if people could
look up there was a series of of of h
(29:06):
golf shots that Ben Hogan said there those are kind
of black and white, but they showed the green which
was which was then, and it's beautiful green. Probably a
little more natural looking green, I dare to say, but
(29:26):
it's people could look that up and show you show
people how it was. I've looked at that and it's
pretty interesting. And then there were those unusual bunkers at Alistair.
Mackenzie and his team and and uh Wendell Miller and
everyone created uh, what would you call? Yeah, what do
(29:48):
you how would you describe those? Well, I probably say
a little more natural looking, yeah, uh offaming anybody, but
they were a little more unkempt. Let's say, uh that
that was just a look back then you see it
in the old pictures. But no, that's that's a different,
(30:09):
different era. Yeah. Now when you did you and Carl
have an understanding about that hole that you discussed in advance,
um or was it just a moment day by day
situation and he would just it would just be like
any other hole that he was catting for you on. Oh,
(30:31):
it was very much day by very much day by day.
And you know, I'll tell you what so so much
fun with Carl Jackson. Carl Jackson knew me so well,
but he knew the golf course so well. I mean,
I was convinced that I had the best caddy and
that's why I stayed with him forever. There's no that
(30:53):
was crystal clear in my mind. But we had a
way of working out a particular club to go into
into a green and we would we would just discuss
it very simply, you know, and civil Carl, I like
the six and he said, you you said you got
it worked together, and or you say something very simple
(31:14):
like you know it's maybe it's a it's a it's
a light five. I like that. But we worked out shots.
We never worked with yardage. Did you know that? We
never worked with any yardage. He knew the yardage, but
we were just concentrating on the shot to play. So
he wouldn't give you a number. No, Uh, we didn't
(31:35):
work at any numbers. Wow, did you play that way
anywhere else? Yeah? I did you know? My first full
year on on the tour nineteen seventy three, I played
by by absolute feel. I didn't have any yardage at all.
Well that for a caddy, that I mean you really
(31:56):
have to have a trusting relationship with a caddy to
do that, right. Oh? Absolutely? And and you know this
was you know, way way long ago people people actually
Dean Beemon and Jack Nicholas and Jack Nicholas got the
(32:18):
idea of playing by yardists from Dean Beemon. This was
way back when he was an amateur, so he started
charting course. Is a little bit more. Arnold Palmer had
a great old caddy named Creamy Carolin on the tour
who made all these books he was one of the
earliest bookmakers on tour that you know, and he started
(32:41):
selling him and then the idea, uh proliferated. But you know,
the start of my career, not many people were using yardage.
That's it's it's hard for us to fathom that. Now.
Can you imagine that where they have shot linked had
an analyst who breaks it down to tell people how
(33:03):
to play a hole and of course dissected by it's
just dissected by everything. Now. Uh well, let's take another
quick break and then I want to ask you about
those two years in the final rounds here on The
Shack Show with Ben Crenshaw. Okay, so ur the moment
(33:28):
you thought you saw Billy Joe Patton? Remind me? Was
that on Saturday or Sunday? That was on Sunday? So
you you didn't hit a very good drive? TV had
you a two off the tea that seemed a little low. Yeah,
I don't know where I caught that on the club,
but I didn't get enough out of it and the
I made a quick decision not to go for it
(33:51):
on my second shot, I would have had the powder
at three would where I was And so many tournaments
that I played Billy Joe Patton would always be the
rules man on thirteen. He'd hide behind one of those
trees and I would always see him. Uh. And it's funny.
I thought of him. I thought I saw him during
(34:17):
that particular decision, but he said he wasn't there. But
I'll tell you this, he was in my mind before
I hit the shot because I knew that in his
uh fifty four year Uh. He went for the green
on thirteen and fifteen and lost narwie. Uh, But I
(34:44):
thought of him. Uh, And I laid up and uh
it was. It was strange, very strange. But that guy
was so funny. He could really tell a story. But man,
he came off a close times as an amateur. I'll
tell you the guy who really came close was Charlie Cole.
(35:07):
Charlie Cole was brilliant player. God was he beautiful player
to watch. I want uh in Austin. Here we had
a pro am. You wan't to believe this. Jeff in
the n and Orville Moody had just won the US
Open at Champions in Houston, and we had this little
(35:28):
Austin program at Austin Country Club. That's some fine players
that came out, and Harvey said, man, I want you
to watch one player today who's gonna be here, and
that's Charlie cole h Man. Was he good? He was
really fun to watch. He could sting it. Did he
give you anything specific that I want you to watch
(35:50):
or just just watch him? Just watch? No, you just
watch that, Just watch that. Man. Would he ask you
after what you saw anything like that? Yeah? I did,
I said, I said, Harvey, what a swing? I said.
He had the most the most beautiful wrist cock at
the top of the swing. But it was natural and
(36:10):
it was solid. It was really solid. Fun to watch.
Back to eight four. You lay up and then what
what was the you? You were sort of exasperated and
and kind of kind of put your arms in the
air and and Kenventurry didn't know what to make of it.
What was that? I just I was saying to myself,
(36:30):
I had to lay up, you were Yeah, I threw
my hands up. No, I surrendered the shot, was what
I did. Surrendered it? Now, you're dad That that wasn't
one of the times you could hear him yelling out
lay up right, No, that was okay he did it
(36:53):
that day. No, he didn't do it that day. But
he did it. He did it so many times. I
could hear him on fifteen he lay up, lay up,
and didn't that constitute advice? So yeah, it would well good.
The committee doesn't need to go back and look at those. Uh.
(37:15):
But you doo don't matter what right. It wasn't like
it was inconsistent advice. It was the same thing every time. Right. Oh,
he was so my dad was. He knew something bad
was gonna happen all the time. But my brother Charlie
and I would just laugh about that. He he he
(37:35):
said he's gonna make an eight. He's gonna make an
eight or something. He was just kind of that kind
of dad. He was. He was hilarious. He he played
it out on his sleeve. Did you play there much
with him? I never did, but he had a really
good friend in Augusta. I'm not sure if he ever
played the course, but he went around it many times. Yeah. Um,
(37:58):
just kind of back to the design. Uh. I just
want to ask you kind of as it relates to
your work and um, the changes that have happened there
over the years in the prospect of possibly another t
although I don't believe Chairman Ridley wants to do it,
and we'll do everything in his power not to do it. Um,
(38:19):
But how much do you think about when you're when
you and Bill are doing a golf hole, Uh, the
dynamics of something like the twelfth green to thet tea there,
Because I know I've I've heard you talk about the
things that go through your mind on that walk to
the tea. And and it was really fun last year,
(38:40):
by the way, Ben in the Augusta National Women's Amateur
to see those women well one, how they played, which
was just ludicrous, unbelievable. And then but when they walked
off twelve I barely had chance to turn my head.
I was talking to a few people and I look
and all of a sudden they're teeing off and you
just forget at the dynamic of the pacing is so
(39:03):
different when you just yes, if you don't have to
walk back that much. But then you know that that girl,
that girl just got up there and just had two
of the most beautiful shots on that whole It's oh,
just beautiful. Yeah, you're right, it's it's a situation where
the t was you walk right off the collar of
(39:23):
the green and you're there and you know, like forty steps,
thirty steps, and that's so nice. And then you you
you're up there, you get a look around the corner,
you sit all before you and it's a continuation of
the thought process really when you when you think about it,
and then it's so quiet, you're not you know people.
(39:46):
Let me tell you something that and that is it's
almost an eerie feeling when you you complete number eleven,
you go to the twelve tea, you hit and you
start walking and some of the old caddies have said,
you know, the only thing you can hear then is
your heart beat and the caddy's heart beat, and you're playing,
(40:07):
playing partner. It's spooky feeling. Really. Yeah, there's nothing like
it really in tournament golf. I mean they're occasional, but
nothing on that that stage of that size. Maybe I'm
trying to think of pebble now, pebble, I guess the
eighth t and pebble beat. You're you're kind of by
yourself at a certain point, but it's not the same
(40:30):
type of t shot in terms of everything. It's almost
an eerie feeling. You see all the people, all the
spectators way up there, but it is quiet back there
and it's solemn. How much does No, It's just like
it's a reflection, uh, of what you've done so far
(40:52):
during the round. Are you how you just messed up
to twelve old and you manage yourself or your or
you're excited that you made an occasional two or matting
really up and down par that you needed and you're
just keyed up. You're keyed up. But it's just totally silent,
(41:12):
amazing a lot of people when they uh discuss the
way the whole plays now versus many years ago season
the par and said we'll just change it to a
par four. But mentally, doesn't that completely change the dynamics
of it going from a five to four? Yes? And
(41:34):
I mean and I know that that that you know
fred Ridley is struggling with the fact he wants to
keep it five. You know, there's there's just that added
element of of emotion someone coming from behind and making
an eagle there or messing up the whole. Uh, there's
(41:58):
a There's just a lot that can happen dramatically if
it stays a five. I would always fight for keeping
it a five in some particular way. No question about it.
I don't know what's gonna happen, Jeff. They have all
the space in the world to do what they want
to now, I don't know what's gonna happen. I'd hate
(42:21):
to make that decision. Really, you want the players. You
want all the players when when Jones talked about that
momentous decision you want to have You want to have
people go through that every time they play it. That's
the fun of it, that's the thrill of it. That's
(42:42):
what people want to see. That's what people want to
feel of of a leader or a pursuer in that position.
And that's what makes the whole golf course so unique
because you're you're faced with the decisions that you normally
don't make at other times during the year, and it's
(43:05):
in such a spectacular setting. So much that can happen. Uh,
so much as that has happened in the past. You
know the stories, you know the players, you know what happened.
You know, you know in ninety four, you know, you
just start picking out years thirteen. Why they call it
(43:28):
Amen Corner that our friend Herbert Warren when aptly named it.
Did you discuss that whole much with him? Every bit
I could Herbert Warren when I found a man totally
fascinating and so talented as a writer. He loved golf
(43:50):
so much, so much. You know, he wrote about other sports.
Golf really really turned him on. But he could he
could threat us story and make it really jump off
the pages that you were reading because he knew everybody
you mentioned somebody, and so I met him a long time.
(44:12):
He just knew everybody in golf and he just loved it.
A brilliant writer. Yeah, I have a book of his,
some some non golf writing that my mom picked up
at a at a book sale, and I'm gonna get
into it. He gets into some of the Dodgers, that
famous Dodgers. I'm I'm anxious to read just him on
(44:33):
other other other things. What are you are you reading
anything at the moment um? You know what, I'll tell
you what I was rereading. And it's a book. It's
on my desk right now. You're you know, our our
friend Steve you Banks is uh writer that I've that
(44:56):
I've met at Augusta many many times. But he he
wrote this book a good while ago. But this book
is called To Win and Die in Dixie h and
it's it's about it's about one of Jones's contemporaries, and
it's a true story and it's a it's a it's
(45:18):
almost like a mystery novel. But this guy could play.
This guy could play. Name was James Douglas Edgar, j
Douglas Edgar and uh, it's he you know, heame's on
the Walker Cup with Jones. But this guy, it's it's
(45:38):
he did the best job. It's it's it's unbelievable. They's
already might have been murdered. He goes through it. It's
it's outstanding story. But that's just one. I've got stacks
of books everywhere here. Yeah, I like to I'm I'm
kind of a rereader. I go back and look at things.
I've got the right here is the Architectural Side of
(46:03):
Golf Weather in Simpson, which is one of my favorite.
There's so many good thoughts in that book. The writing
is just incredible. Yeah, I'm I'm like, how you think
of Max Beyer. Max Beyer to me, you showed meet
some of his writings and they're just they're just brilliant
(46:26):
and their thoughts are very intense, but makes so much sense.
He talks about freedom, freedom of space, you know, and
almost like an American enjoys freedom, but that should be
that should be enjoyed on the golf course as well,
and it reflecting and in designs, and he wrote about
(46:48):
what he thought and what his philosophy was, so well,
he's the one figure that I wish we knew more
about what he did to prepare Bobby Jones uh for
designing Augusta National, and and Dr Mackenzie as well, since
(47:08):
they we're friends. But you know that time that Bobby
Jones spent here in southern California and playing lakeside Max
bears design, which was very linksy and and featured so
many of the ideas from from the old course that
he and an undulation and being in certain locations and
(47:31):
of certain holes. I I just can only dream of
the conversations they had. And the timing of that, of course,
was was so perfect before building Augustina National and and
and it's it's and they were obviously friends and and
Max Bear wrote about him, but Jones never went into
too much depth about that time in southern California what
(47:52):
it meant for Augusta National. But I think it's safe
to say it was it was part of his education
and preparation for actually building the club. I think no doubt.
I think no doubt. And uh they had that piece
of land, had Augusta had that spaciousness that uh, those
(48:14):
thoughts about St Andrews came in uh and that that
that philosophy. Uh so I don't think there's any questions
that you know in southern California. Uh, those thoughts presentedly
had to Yah. Well, I'll let you get to your
(48:36):
your reading. It sounds fantastic, and uh, I thank you
so much for your time today. I'm sorry you're not welcome.
Uh today you'd be uh enjoying the first round of
the Masters. Normally you would have had a wonderful champions
dinner with Tiger Woods returning as a as a former
champion and hosting. But hopefully you get that opportunity in November,
(49:01):
and uh we can all you get to celebrate the
anniversary again in November. Yeah, we're gonna do it again,
and I can't wait to say a few words about
Tiger at the dinner. You know, he won that tournament
last year with Patients in Diligence, and he had such
a a memory vault of things that have happened. He
(49:26):
just knew how to play it. And things happened for tuitishly,
for truitlessly, for him, but he knew what to do
and he just executed brilliant. Yeah, don't you marvel? I
mean I always do it. Players like him, well, all
of you, anybody who gets to that level, but somebody
like him? Who who I mean? Has there ever ever
(49:48):
been a I don't think there's ever been an all
time great player who was so good, had so much
trouble and and in a lot of different ways. A
short game gave him fits for a while as off
swing and then of course his body, and then to
go and do what he did as if none of
that happened, and put those the demons are the bad
(50:11):
thoughts or the the memories away and to perform like that.
There's nothing comparable, is there? Maybe? I mean, I mean
Mr Hogan's issues were We're different. I'm I'm just thinking
of a a a player of unbelievable concentration powers. You
(50:37):
think of Hogan, you think of Nicholas, and you think
of Tiger. They had in minds like steel traps. They
know everything that's going on, and they have such an
awareness of where they are and what instincts and how
to play. He those guys knew everything that was going on.
(50:59):
He's so perceptive tiger player. As a player, nobody excels
uh in that category. His mind is unbelievable and his
he had the patience and the diligence to just waite
him out. But he executed beautifully. All of the shots
(51:20):
well I'm not saying safe, but they were solid and
well thought out. Do it do us a favor when
you if you get him in a relaxed mood and
that at that Champions Center, get him to talk about
the twelfth hold and how he went over to the
green You as a text and had to love that
little bit of gamesmanship out there. Uh it was. It
was totally totally clean and fair. But it was just
(51:42):
a beautiful use of his his presence and aura and
the red shirt and the you know the moment I'm
talking about right well, when when his playing partners were
dealing with the creek and he was over, he just
had to go clean up that line a little bit
and let him know he was on the other side
of the creek and they weren't. I just you know
(52:02):
it wasn't rude. It wasn't rude. All the greats have
have done something like that, use their their presence, right, Well,
I don't know, once again, to meet Jeff once again.
The whole that makes that stirs me imagination so much,
(52:27):
happens to be the shortest hole there by by a
long shot, the meanest little mental uh uh mind boggling
a little hole that that makes so much difference. It's
just amazing. That little hole just crazy. It's it's such
a it's well, we're gonna get to watch it all
(52:49):
over again. CBS is airing the final round on Sunday,
and and I can't wait to to really sit with
a big screen and watch kind of that whole thing
play out again. Not because I enjoy watching people hit
at the creek, but just all the dynamics involved. And
of course it was so the wind was getting nasty,
and it was it was an amazing master but but
but you're win was pretty amazing. So I appreciate you
(53:12):
reliving some of it with us. And it's great to
talk to you same here. Ben. Thank you so much.
You take care all right, you too, all right, I
hope you enjoyed that conversation with Ben. We can go
all day long. I recorded a couple of other things
afterwards that I will be putting together at some point
(53:33):
here with some of the other comments of other guests
so far here on the shack Show or three episodes in.
I hope you're enjoying it. I hope you subscribe wherever
you get your podcasts, and I will certainly again at
Jeff Shackleford dot com put up some show notes, a
lot of stuff from Ben's conversation there that I think
you'll enjoy, his uh conversation with Alan Shipnuk that's out
(53:54):
on golf dot com, and Carl Jackson's recent radio interview
with Scotty Sayers, and some other interesting things about Ben Hogan.
I gotta go dig up that Ben Hogan video on
the thirteenth Hole. I think it's on YouTube. We'll have
to see anyway. As always, thank you to everybody at
My Heart for your support of the show, the show's producer,
(54:16):
Tim Perrotka, show's logo creator Aaron Atkins, and to Jeremy
Eisenberg for helping to get the show off the ground,
and to Scottie Sayers for lining up the phone call
with Ben today on this very special anniversary week. Unfortunately
not one that Ben is getting to spend in Augusta
to celebrate, but maybe in November. As we discussed on
the show, It'll Happen. The Shack Show is a production
(54:36):
of My Heart Radio, So for more podcast from my
Heart please visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com